February 4, 2025 • 41 mins
In the previous episode, Ryan & Nicole unexpectedly bumped into some old wounds and found themselves caught up in old dynamics in real-time, trying to process old and new feelings and to care for themselves and each other while touching feelings of struggle, disconnection, and loss. As a result, here in Episode 13, they go back to the therapeutic principle of "process talk," discussing what was happening for them and what they learned.
Discussed: content and process in therapy, process talk, vulnerability, tension, harshness in communication, process talk as central in understanding broader relationship implications, fighting in relational contexts, connection between intimacy and fighting, previous iterations of self, working with tension, intentionality, leaning in, and more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Ryan Thomas Neace. And this is Nicole Neace. And this is the Closer Podcast.
(00:14):
Hello everyone. Welcome to episode 13, Big One Three. Big One Three. We're a teenager now? We are.
This podcast is officially teenage episodes old. Yes.
Episode 13 is called, We Did Not Have a Fight Between Episodes 12 and 13, AKA Process Talk.
(00:40):
Yes. If you guys will remember all the way back in, I guess it would have been episode three.
Oh, that's perfect. 13 and three.
Yeah. We introduced this concept of process talk, which just to give you the recap, essentially in therapy,
(01:02):
there are two things going on all the time. There is content, which just happens to be the subject matter we discuss on any given day.
Your family of origin, your marriage, your relationships, your job, you know, stuff you suffered when you were young,
things you went through last week, just the subject matter could be anything. Making adult friends.
Or making friends as adults. Yes. That's right. That's better.
(01:25):
And typically, right, they would be adult friends also. Yes.
Making friends with children as adults. That's a whole different episode. Oh, that's creepy.
But the other thing is process. And process is in therapy. It's what's happening between the therapist and the client.
And it is often the types of things that you wouldn't disclose in ordinary real time conversation.
(01:51):
In other words, if I take someone out for a coffee date and someone that I'm getting to know or something like that,
and they'll be thinking some things that they're not saying and I'll be thinking some things that I'm not saying,
I might think, oh, I might notice something about their appearance or I might notice that this conversation that we're having
(02:13):
is similar to a conversation we had earlier and I wonder if the person realizes they're repeating themselves, that sort of thing.
But in therapy, we say those things. Well timed. You have to exercise discretion.
You don't say everything that goes through your mind all the time. Right? It's not 100% disclosure 100% of the time.
But there really is something about like, hey, I'm going to tell you what's actually happening for me over here while you're talking.
(02:37):
And it is often there in process talk that you find out things about the problem, whatever the person has brought,
which by the way is often over in the subject matter.
You know, that's just the stuff they're there to talk about.
You find out why they haven't taken what is usually a fairly straightforward fix.
(03:00):
In other words, people come in with problems, oftentimes they've been told by their spouse, friends, parents, children, loved ones,
what to do about that problem. But they don't do that thing.
There's usually an obstacle in the way. And it is often in process talk where we're talking about the dynamics between you and I
(03:22):
that you find, ooh, there's the obstacle that is preventing you. And why?
Because somehow it plays itself out between the between the two.
So process talk is sort of a regular part of our lives.
We kind of say, oftentimes at risk of some sort, there's a particularly kind of vulnerable, hey, here's what's actually happening for me.
(03:50):
And the last time that we decided to do this, it was after we were just in the first couple of episodes.
And we were just noticing, what do you remember, stuff about, you know, sort of the imaginary audience, I guess.
Yeah, it was because it was so new. There was a lot of things happening while we were recording.
Yeah, right, right. Between the two of us that we weren't that we were noticing.
(04:13):
But it was like if you people had had a video at the same time, you would have probably seen a lot of different things or heard things even differently, potentially,
because you would have seen the looks on our faces.
Right. And I think what that resulted in was an argument post that time.
And then the way that we worked through it was this process talk.
(04:36):
Yeah, right. And so we kind of had the fight in between episodes two and three, and then we did some process talk about it.
Interestingly, speaking of letting people one step closer to us, which is always the goal of this from the beginning,
we didn't know exactly how this would shape out and it's still taking shape. We're still very early on, it feels like.
But sort of last time we had the fight, in a manner of speaking, and fight as we said in between is the wrong word.
(05:04):
Yes. Yeah, fight doesn't feel like an accurate word.
No, because when we fight, by the way, it's more intense than that.
It was an intense, no, it was a tension-filled talk.
It was a tension-filled talk, yeah, dialogue.
Yes. Actually, like back in episode six, we talked a little bit about this,
(05:25):
where I talked about not really knowing how to argue in a way that was like productive and helpful.
And that I use the example of you and your dad, like having this really intense,
passion-filled conversation in the van when we were headed somewhere.
And that I like at the end of it, you guys were like, you worked it out and you were good.
I was like, wow, is that what the argument looks like?
(05:48):
So if you want to say it was an argument, you can. I think that's a loose, it's loosely termed that way.
I think a discussion feels better.
Language is important, and how you frame things is important.
I concur, last time it was not a fight, it was not an argument, because we did not like dig our heels in,
(06:10):
which by the way is something I think we're going to end up talking about a little bit here.
And then like posture towards one another and stay really entrenched.
And a lot of the reason that didn't happen last time is because this is actually an old argument.
It's not actually occurring. We don't even feel particularly identified with all of this anymore.
But the point is, when things go down like this, in a way that we have experienced others around us at times,
(06:36):
we're like, do you guys really actually, do you talk like this when you're like,
and it's like, yes, do you not? And then we figure out, oh, again, there's like a, we kind of do things differently.
And in a way that is inextricably tied to who we are, which is also inextricably tied to being therapists.
And there's just kind of no way around that.
(06:57):
So we wanted to give everyone the benefit of process talk again, since although this did not arise at a level of an argument in our book,
it was uncomfortable and it was vulnerable for both of us.
I think one of the things we've been trying to figure out on the Closer Podcast is how close to let people in.
We don't really have any desire to be like exhibitionists and show everybody our dirty laundry constantly.
(07:22):
And at the same time, we do want to be authentic. And the line between those two things is, you know, murky at times.
We're trying to find our way in. And so we hadn't actually planned clearly to have that go that way last time.
So let's just talk about what we noticed.
Like, remember, these are the things that like maybe an ordinary conversation, you don't tell your friends or acquaintances,
(07:44):
but we want to tell each other. And a lot of it is around disclosing what was happening for us and maybe what we were noticing in the other.
Where do we start?
I think as the days went on post the podcast, after we listened to it and then we put it out there for everyone to listen to as well.
Like it continued to sort of like go round and round in my mind.
(08:09):
New feelings sort of came to the surface. New thoughts came about where I was in that moment.
And what I think I noticed for myself was we were sort of trudging along this one path talking about making friends as adults.
And then we stepped into this memory. And when we stepped into it, I instantly started feeling like this other iteration of self,
(08:39):
like this person who was 30 something, you know, early 30s and maybe smidge before that and who she was and what she feels.
And historically, that is, I think, the thing that when we do get into arguments is the thing that sort of sends it off the deep end if I don't welcome them in.
(09:05):
And so what I mean by that is she was very present this younger iteration of myself.
She very much still feels the things that she was talking about that day.
And normally, when that happens, I kind of tell her to shut up and I try to like present this other thing.
(09:28):
And I was letting her sort of stay there with me while I was talking with you.
This is the you that was originally, you know, in our lives.
Yeah.
X number of years ago, you were saying the stuff you were saying last time about like not wanting to feel, you know, feeling lonely, feeling alone,
(09:54):
feeling, you know, not a part of feeling like your identity was like sort of being subsumed by.
Yeah, I don't know if I had a strong grasp on who I was, and that was sort of where that was.
That was the thing. Right.
You know, and I kept running into these other pieces.
(10:16):
And when you and I started talking, what I noticed was instead of while she was there, instead of me being like, hey, we got this.
This is cool. Everything's fine. We can, you know, which was is that how you say shut up?
No, no, no. That instead of me saying that and I wasn't quite saying shut up, I just sort of was like enveloped by it.
(10:40):
And so sometimes you say shut up to her.
Sometimes I'm like, you're here and I got you. Don't you worry, friend.
Right. And then sometimes she just takes the keys and she's running the show.
OK, she was semi in and out of running the show.
And I think where I got stuck was I then started looking at you through her eyes instead of through the perspective that I have now,
(11:06):
which has so much more information and so much more understanding of myself and of you and of us in a dynamic.
And so she's running the show.
And what happened afterwards is I was remembering, gosh, there was a lot of other things going on for her at that time.
And that was really also in other than other than there was things more than just being a mom, more than just wanting friends.
(11:32):
There was a lot more than having consternation around those two points.
Yeah. Other things going on as well.
Yeah. And so many things not to unpack today, but like stuff between me and you.
So between you, stuff between like my family of origin and myself, just finding my place.
Who am I? I mean, work things, non-work things, friends, new city, just a lot of different emotions, a lot of different new things,
(12:01):
a lot of different painful things all happening, all that really contributed to the loneliness.
Yeah, I was going to say, what was the what's the impact and like, what about that?
Yeah, because I think back then I really kept to myself.
I didn't talk a lot to other people, which was part of here it is.
I had friends and I wasn't talking to them. I would have had some work.
(12:25):
But there was I was always sort of hesitant to open sort of that door and that room to other people.
I was very particular about who I would share it with.
And at the time, I think it was really like you and my therapist were two people that I would let know all the things.
Right. You kind of had all in those categories and then you are all that was, you know, available for you to know.
(12:53):
Right. Because this is all just like relative to your own, what you're aware of.
Right. And then sort of this is helpful. That's actually a good framework to that fits my experience.
You would kind of let us in all the way and pretty much everybody else was like somewhere way far away.
(13:14):
I mean, you weren't exactly binary. There were a few levels, but like all the levels, it was like we were at,
you know, 90 to 90 to 100 percent and everybody else was like under 20.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so there's such a disparity between the two.
Yeah. Massive one. And I think all of that contributes to who was showing up in that space last week, last week, last week, last episode.
(13:42):
And I'm looking at you and I'm I'm instantly that person.
I'm feeling those things that she felt. And I was overwhelmed with how sad she was.
So if I think about like what's happening between the two of us because of what was happening for me,
(14:05):
it was such a painful moment and felt very vulnerable to record it and put it out there for consumption.
I remember being somewhat. I don't know if I was surprised exactly,
but like I noticed that you did not request to not do that.
I was like aware of that, like, oh, we're going to we're going to go ahead and let this rip.
(14:28):
Yeah. Well, maybe it's like I think some of it is the evolution of self.
Right. And what I'm hoping to change about the way that I've done things historically.
Part of what I want is, you know, people to see that this happens and there is a way through it.
I mean, the thing that was so gratifying for me and it's we were just being us in that space was by the end of the episode,
(14:56):
I felt very connected to you. I felt like seen and heard.
And there wasn't I didn't leave that episode being like, wow, we got a lot of work to do here. Right.
The 30 something self would have said that. But the 46 something self is like, no, no, I'm actually really happy with that progress.
(15:21):
And people need to hear that. People need to see what that looks like. Yeah, that's helpful.
I don't know what I mean. What do you what do you think about what I'm saying or you know, I'm curious about your own experience.
I have the same thought at the end there about the idea that it's probably good for people to have some frame of reference for what that can sound like
(15:46):
in a way that I think I am. I don't know, naive to saddened by. I'm surprised sometimes when I hear that people will run into conversations like that
and they just really don't feel equipped to move through them. And so they don't.
So the conversation just kind of dies. One person gives up kind of one person, you know, which which certainly across time and space with us,
(16:13):
we've both given up, you know, in arguments or in, as we're saying, tense discussions or just period.
We're just like, I don't have any more energy for this right now. And I'm not really talking about that.
I mean, more like a no, we're giving up and we're this is kind of going to never like be a thing that we find our way back to or address or.
(16:36):
Otherwise, yeah, I mean. I also felt vulnerable.
Because I did some things that I do a lot. Yeah. And they were they are very visible, the things that I do, such as, you know, the thing where I like didn't answer the question.
(17:01):
Yeah. And I was actually not trying to be evasive. I really felt very grounded and present.
And I was like. I just I don't actually need to talk about this. I think you need to talk about it.
And I don't know how I knew that. And I think I was right somehow or something.
You know, I mean, of course, I drove it that way. And so, you know, but I mean, imagine if I had started the episode off by saying what I eventually said,
(17:30):
I'm fine. I'm good with this. You know, like I.
And that could have been one way to do it. Absolutely. But I noticed that, like, I am a person who creates tension and then like I work creatively with that tension.
That's like a thing. That's what I do in therapy. Yeah. It's like I may prolong a thing like driving the tension up because both you, me, everybody,
(17:57):
we become more pliable when tension is in the room.
Some people get stiff as a board. Right. Right. And you notice that and you try to work with that.
But most people actually, when held at the same time, like, no, no, I'm fully holding you.
I'm right here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm relatively even keeled emotionally.
(18:23):
Other than sort of responding to what's present and at the same time. No, I'm not doing that yet.
People get pliable. But here's the thing. Nothing about that for me as it was a very earnest thing I did.
I was not being gamey or something. It doesn't even occur to me because it was so intuitive. Right. I didn't know I was going to do that.
(18:45):
When you sat in the room. Right. But because I did that, I also see how irritating that could be.
Irritating is an exactly right word, though. Some people might be irritated by it.
I see that that is a sharp instrument or something. Yeah. I think that's a good way to describe it.
(19:09):
It's a very precise kind of instrument. And I see that in wielding it, it creates discomfort.
And I'm just aware that I was allowing a lot of discomfort to be in and I was not.
(19:32):
This is the word that's in my head. I was not rescuing you, me, us from it. Right.
And in noticing that, I had the thing go through my head again. This is as I on post alluded, as I listened to it.
And I'm like, dang, I was not. I wish I was softer, sort of. Which is to say, I could have slowed down.
(20:02):
Well, theoretically, I could have slowed down and kind of did what we eventually got to at the end. Right.
Which was the sort of like true confession. Hey, I love you. I'm sorry that this is and I'm sorry that I couldn't give you.
But that's it, actually. The same thing happened for me. I stepped back into that place where we were. Right.
(20:23):
And I could not give it to you. I was like prevented in a way because I was also being triggered,
in addition to this other thing that I'm talking about that I kind of do more generally anyways.
And I just I think that I must have some kind of like automatic belief,
(20:48):
which is like a thought that I don't really think, but is just evident in the way that I show up.
That if I'm, which it's crazy because I actually don't believe it when I say it, when I'm about to say it out loud.
Like something like if I if I break character there, like I'm going to lose something.
(21:13):
Like if I get too soft, it will somehow not have the net impact that like.
But again, all this makes it sound as though I'm thinking about I'm not thinking about any of this. It's just all intuitive.
But somewhere in there, when I can hear it in hindsight, it'd be like, I wish I would just be softer.
It's hard. And there last week, last episode, it was hard because I was also again feeling frustrated with your 30 year old self.
(21:43):
You know, 30 something year old self.
The thing that I hear, though, vis a vis everything I'm trying to get at is that you are asking for something wholly different than what I am pointing to.
Yes. And. I fail to see that some of the time and or.
(22:07):
I don't have it to give, and I think it's a little bit of both.
And the truth is, especially in a relationship like this, not therapy.
I am 100 percent in my own shit.
In therapy, you you ideally are your stuff is very present and therapists who claim otherwise. I wear different kinds of therapists.
(22:30):
That's true for you. What I can do is sort of hold that near me.
I actually do not suppress it. I do not push it away because I find that is actually a very interesting guide.
Yeah. And therapy is not something I want to have active without my very like good conscious awareness of its presence.
But I don't I don't like I'm like, hey, Ryan, interesting for you to know.
(22:54):
Well, let's check that out later. Right. Right.
If it's exclusively about me, if it's just me and you talking, I'm all, no, let's check that out right now.
You know, I'm in it. Just like you said, you became I sort of did as well.
And I on hearing that, I'm like, dang, this is the second time the last time, you know,
was episode three process talk where I'm like, I'm not.
(23:19):
I wish I would give you the thing.
But there is some kind of constitutional thing in me sometimes that I'm like, you know, not going to do it.
Well, they bring when they bring it, this junk share.
I mean, it's a George Bush or not, not senior, not G.W.
(23:41):
That's a Dana Carvey. Yes. We just date ourselves.
Yeah. That's totally a sediment life skit. Really OK by me.
You know, what's interesting is there are pieces in there that I'm like, yeah, I wish he was softer.
I wish he would have just offered me like, oh, sorry, babe. Sorry.
You felt that way. You know, my 30 year old self wanted that.
(24:05):
I have the benefit of 16 years of life post that time period with you,
with all kinds of interesting facts and experiences that were directly influenced by you not doing the soft thing.
And it's not that you were you. You offered me plenty of softness back then.
(24:27):
So I don't want it to be misunderstood that like you were some harsh asshole that I didn't love his wife and was just like,
suck it up and figure it out.
There was a lot of softness in recounting the pain.
I think there was room to be like, right. Right.
But one of the things I said to you this week was the benefit of the last 16 years is and and across the board in our relationship.
(24:56):
Is that you showing up the way that you do so intuitively and that sort of lean in towards the the hard and the direct kind of stuff
and not just buttering everything for me is what drove me into finding myself.
(25:17):
Yeah. And that is a gift that I would not return ever.
And I wouldn't return it for 500 more soft moments because I'm really thankful that that this iteration of self was OK with you posting that
or sharing that episode because I feel very confident in who I am and who we are.
(25:43):
And I don't think that my 30 something self could have said that.
And part of the reason she couldn't because she she hadn't done all the work right.
Which was primarily the path was lit by you in a lot of ways.
Yeah. You know, I appreciate you saying that.
I think I really deeply believe and believed that there was a process you were on and you had to do some things
(26:23):
in order to be relieved of where you were at and that there was no substitute.
I had this coming into clearer focus for me in some ways, even the feedback that I have heard over now, you know, 20 something years of mental health work about like
(26:44):
people are like, dang, dude, Ryan's going to light you up, bro.
Like, you know, and I'm always kind of like, seriously, honestly, I am always like, what are they really like?
Because again, I'm just kind of sitting down and being me, right.
Me mixed with my education and insight and experience and all that.
But me nonetheless. So it's actually really nice to hear you say that because I believed that for you and I believe it for others that you can have the things you're after.
(27:16):
But it often requires you to do the one thing that you will not do.
Yeah. And a lot of people want like their symptoms to go away so that they can do that thing.
Yeah. I'm always like, no, dude, you get cart before horse.
Yeah. And then they're like, well, how do and I'm like, yeah, now we're asking the right question.
How do I do that? That's right.
(27:38):
And like you're saying, in the retelling of the story, I just got caught back up in it because I think I felt defensive as well.
Yeah. Because I think I kept hearing originally or something that like maybe that, you know, it's funny.
You were talking about last week that they're, you know, like you kept as though I was telling you you were doing something wrong.
(28:04):
Right. And then I kept being like, I'm having the same experience.
I'm having the same experience in a way you're telling me I'm doing something wrong here.
Yeah. And again, what I can hear is if I could be softer, if I could go slower,
if I could actually tap into some of the actual deep feelings that I do have, which I can access at other times.
(28:28):
Yeah. But that would potentially actually enhance what I'm doing.
Yeah. But I do do like this is actually helpful for me because I'm hearing myself say this for the first time.
I do have some sort of inbuilt thing that's like, do not get to don't let too much of the tension out of the room.
The tension is the thing that is pressing us up against the glass being like I have to get out of here.
(28:55):
And it's like, that's correct. You do have to get out of here. What do you want to do?
And I feel often and if I throw a release valve, but you're my wife.
But I'm fucking like this. I know it's awful to live with.
You are like this. And the differences and you know, as we've talked about this and we've kind of
(29:16):
beyond just the episode from last week, we've talked about this kind of stuff the entirety of our marriage.
One of the things that happens is in this relationship, you show you show up as the human that you are.
And I show up as a human than I am. You do really successful work with your clients. I do really successful work.
We have two very different approaches on how we do that.
(29:40):
But what's common is we show up fully as ourselves in that space.
And when you do that, I think that regardless of whether or not you leave the pressure in the room
or you have a valve that releases a little bit of it at any point, you see miraculous things
because you are fully present and fully there. And if at 30 something, I was as present as I could be
(30:03):
with the access I had to myself and same for you. We offered each other what we could.
And some real good things came out of that. There was also some very painful things that came out of that time frame.
And I think the purpose is to try and make everything feel good all the time.
Nor is it to ignore real pain either. Absolutely.
(30:30):
And it's not even about a balance. It's just like what's needed right now.
What do we think now and then what's needed now?
And I mean, you can we can say all we want that like if you would have offered some other kind of response
in the episode last week that a different reaction would have happened.
Maybe. But I don't have that reflection back.
I have like, oh, no, it went exactly like it needed to because we did work through it.
(30:54):
And at the end of the episode, I felt really good about where I was out with you and with myself.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I would want to undo anything either.
I mean, part of the deal that we talked about when we go back to episode six again, bad blood, you know,
the inevitability of fighting in a relationship is maybe more inevitable.
(31:23):
Right. This is where we said back then we're not necessarily the idea here with this podcast is that people just get a layer closer.
That doesn't mean that you like what you see or that that we are telling you you should emulate what we do.
The thing is, by by showing up as our real selves all the time, there is some implicit, very human incompatibility.
(31:49):
Like a thing cannot go any better than it does as long as these two people are really who they are,
which is why I always say in therapy, I said it today, as a matter of fact, to a client,
if there is no fighting in a long term relationship, guaranteed someone is not talking, usually both parties.
And we were hip to this research as a part of our own couples therapy.
(32:15):
But I remember our counselor, the boss, the boss, he told us that as it regards research and please Google this to see if you can find it.
There are two kinds of couples primarily. There are high conflict couples and there are low conflict couples.
The low conflict couples tend not to have a major impasse in their relationship till way later.
(32:41):
For high conflict couples, it's usually after about year seven or eight from whence the phrase seven year itch emanates.
For lower conflict couples, it's almost double that. It's about 16 years.
So imagine, and the way that per the boss, the way that usually goes is that you come home one day and there's divorce papers on the table.
(33:02):
In a manner of speaking, even then there's not a ton of conflict per se.
I mean there may be a lot of things that ensue from that point, but it's just like, hey, this is over.
And why? Because we haven't had a conversation about anything for 16 years.
And I do think I have a healthy fear of not talking about things and I have an unhealthy fear about not talking about things,
(33:23):
which I have had to come off of in our relationship.
And speaking of things that I thought about, that is one of the things that I realized is you're the one that's helped me walk away from some of that.
You know, you highlight this thing between my dad and I, but my dad could tell you this too.
It also often did not go well. And for at least for me, it was not over after the thing was over.
(33:50):
I was still, you know, if we really got into it, it would. And that's the risk, right?
The risk of talking about anything is that it will get blown out of proportion or that it somehow injure one another.
And you've helped me walk that back. I mean, even when we're talking about your style in therapy,
I don't know that you're always throwing a release valve, as I've understood what you do,
(34:13):
but that you just leave the tension and don't keep pointing at it as relentlessly as I do.
I'll be like, yeah, but it's right there. Whatever else you're saying right now, it's right there.
Do you want it? You want out? No? Okay, you just want it. Okay, cool. No, we can leave it in the room.
You, you know, in the same way that you do in our lives, you know, you pick up the attention of the conversation
(34:40):
and you move it elsewhere and you allow that tension to sort of pass through you.
I oftentimes require it to be lodged. Yeah.
And that really demonstrates a fundamental difference in who we are and how we approach life.
And we can both see in our marriage and in our individual lives how those tendencies can be immensely helpful
(35:09):
and immensely self-defeating. Yes.
On the one end for you, you can be avoidant. And on the one end for me, I am like so relentless with a thing.
I just cannot let it drop. And neither of those really work.
And this is something that like does feel like another one of those things between us that, you know,
(35:34):
that you point to all the time. We're like, see, it's going to work itself out.
But there is a kind of like a rub down of our edges. Yeah.
And like gradually sanded down over time by, you know, one another's opposite tendencies.
The difficulty is in route to that point you want to destroy each other at the time or you dang near do.
(35:56):
And I would say that's another thing that I learned last week.
Like you, I liked where we ended and it felt complete.
It was just vulnerable because we let everybody see it.
And I'm like, OK, yes, this is how we do things. And you realize immediately like, I hope they see the whole.
I hope they heard the whole thing. Yeah.
(36:17):
And they listened all the way through. I could see how when we got to that point in the episode that that might be difficult for people to sit through.
Yes. Anybody who's got wounds from somebody who did not, you know, see their pain or reflect, validate their pain.
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. It would be really hard to. Yes. To sit through it.
And I think that if you did and you made it all the way to the end, congratulations.
(36:42):
You know, that's a success. Thank you. I would say to anybody who listened all the way through.
Absolutely. Thank you. If you didn't and you skipped it, you really should go back.
Yeah. Maybe with a little time and space. Yeah. You know, my perspective. Yeah, exactly.
I'm all go look at it. You're all give it some time. Yeah.
Which is whatever floats your boat. That's right. Yeah.
Just take it as you can. But, you know, there's there's something to that.
(37:06):
I know that a different iteration of myself, a younger version of myself, would have had a really hard time sitting in that space.
Not only as me, but listening to that conversation. Exactly.
And so maybe that's another thing. If you did have a hard time, we do understand.
Like we're trying to say it, but let's just say it plainly.
We understand and we. We care. Yeah.
(37:31):
It makes sense to us. Like this is again, like not it, not a not like a prescription for how you do things.
It's how we do them. It's one way. Yeah.
And that was to my point, by the way, was we are not where we once were. Right.
And like when we sort of came back to each other at the end, it was like, oh, we just went through a thing there, didn't we?
(37:55):
And that thing feels different than something that's like current active.
Right. In that we were able to go be in touch with that distress and tension and sadness and pain.
Frustration. Longing.
But that it felt a little bit like a, you know, a jacket that doesn't fit anymore.
(38:19):
It's like, oh, yeah, fat guy in a little coat sort of thing.
You know, it's like this doesn't actually this isn't ours anymore.
And then it was like, oh, we're not there anymore. Are we?
We don't do that. And even that type of.
Interaction with us these days where like.
(38:40):
You're needing. Some thing and I like.
We have just have less of that like kind of ships in the night missing one another thing these days.
If it's a part of any discussion, it tends to be a smaller part.
Unless we absolutely just tear it down, which we can do every once in a while. If you really screw it up.
(39:05):
Especially. Just kidding.
I mean, I just think that at some point that iteration of self took the keys and she was driving the car.
And. At some point, she looked over at the passenger seat and saw this iteration of self and was like.
(39:35):
Can you drive? Wow. And pulled over and like, let me get in the seat.
And I think that's what got me through that conversation and why I was able to like connect with you again at the end,
because I just like realized she needed me to drive the car and that like she had her time, she had her space.
(39:57):
She drove for a little bit. She felt in control, said what she needed to say.
But I was there in the car with her and it was like a recognizing that and then realizing that she that I didn't want it anymore.
And. And and sort of took took the passenger seat again, which was like interest for me.
(40:20):
That was a. Massive like successful moment to recognize about myself.
I know that I do that a lot, sort of like unconsciously, like I will do that kind of stuff in very little small ways that aren't as tension filled.
Or that are maybe, but I'm not doing it necessarily with another person.
(40:43):
It's kind of all within my own mind and my own experience.
So to be able to like. Watch that happen and then hear it back a few days later and be like, hell yeah, that's awesome.
That actually felt good. Yeah, I felt really good.
I think that's what gave me the comfort of having it be released for people to listen to is like, oh, there's no shame there for me.
(41:08):
Yeah. Like, no, there's nothing to be.
Any kind of way, but proud of. I feel really good about it.
Yeah, good for you.
So great image. Happy for you.
Nighttime sky.
This is Ryan Thomas Neace. And this is Nicole Neace. And this is the Closer Podcast.
(00:14):
Hello everyone. Welcome to episode 13, Big One Three. Big One Three. We're a teenager now? We are.
This podcast is officially teenage episodes old. Yes.
Episode 13 is called, We Did Not Have a Fight Between Episodes 12 and 13, AKA Process Talk.
(00:40):
Yes. If you guys will remember all the way back in, I guess it would have been episode three.
Oh, that's perfect. 13 and three.
Yeah. We introduced this concept of process talk, which just to give you the recap, essentially in therapy,
(01:02):
there are two things going on all the time. There is content, which just happens to be the subject matter we discuss on any given day.
Your family of origin, your marriage, your relationships, your job, you know, stuff you suffered when you were young,
things you went through last week, just the subject matter could be anything. Making adult friends.
Or making friends as adults. Yes. That's right. That's better.
(01:25):
And typically, right, they would be adult friends also. Yes.
Making friends with children as adults. That's a whole different episode. Oh, that's creepy.
But the other thing is process. And process is in therapy. It's what's happening between the therapist and the client.
And it is often the types of things that you wouldn't disclose in ordinary real time conversation.
(01:51):
In other words, if I take someone out for a coffee date and someone that I'm getting to know or something like that,
and they'll be thinking some things that they're not saying and I'll be thinking some things that I'm not saying,
I might think, oh, I might notice something about their appearance or I might notice that this conversation that we're having
(02:13):
is similar to a conversation we had earlier and I wonder if the person realizes they're repeating themselves, that sort of thing.
But in therapy, we say those things. Well timed. You have to exercise discretion.
You don't say everything that goes through your mind all the time. Right? It's not 100% disclosure 100% of the time.
But there really is something about like, hey, I'm going to tell you what's actually happening for me over here while you're talking.
(02:37):
And it is often there in process talk that you find out things about the problem, whatever the person has brought,
which by the way is often over in the subject matter.
You know, that's just the stuff they're there to talk about.
You find out why they haven't taken what is usually a fairly straightforward fix.
(03:00):
In other words, people come in with problems, oftentimes they've been told by their spouse, friends, parents, children, loved ones,
what to do about that problem. But they don't do that thing.
There's usually an obstacle in the way. And it is often in process talk where we're talking about the dynamics between you and I
(03:22):
that you find, ooh, there's the obstacle that is preventing you. And why?
Because somehow it plays itself out between the between the two.
So process talk is sort of a regular part of our lives.
We kind of say, oftentimes at risk of some sort, there's a particularly kind of vulnerable, hey, here's what's actually happening for me.
(03:50):
And the last time that we decided to do this, it was after we were just in the first couple of episodes.
And we were just noticing, what do you remember, stuff about, you know, sort of the imaginary audience, I guess.
Yeah, it was because it was so new. There was a lot of things happening while we were recording.
Yeah, right, right. Between the two of us that we weren't that we were noticing.
(04:13):
But it was like if you people had had a video at the same time, you would have probably seen a lot of different things or heard things even differently, potentially,
because you would have seen the looks on our faces.
Right. And I think what that resulted in was an argument post that time.
And then the way that we worked through it was this process talk.
(04:36):
Yeah, right. And so we kind of had the fight in between episodes two and three, and then we did some process talk about it.
Interestingly, speaking of letting people one step closer to us, which is always the goal of this from the beginning,
we didn't know exactly how this would shape out and it's still taking shape. We're still very early on, it feels like.
But sort of last time we had the fight, in a manner of speaking, and fight as we said in between is the wrong word.
(05:04):
Yes. Yeah, fight doesn't feel like an accurate word.
No, because when we fight, by the way, it's more intense than that.
It was an intense, no, it was a tension-filled talk.
It was a tension-filled talk, yeah, dialogue.
Yes. Actually, like back in episode six, we talked a little bit about this,
(05:25):
where I talked about not really knowing how to argue in a way that was like productive and helpful.
And that I use the example of you and your dad, like having this really intense,
passion-filled conversation in the van when we were headed somewhere.
And that I like at the end of it, you guys were like, you worked it out and you were good.
I was like, wow, is that what the argument looks like?
(05:48):
So if you want to say it was an argument, you can. I think that's a loose, it's loosely termed that way.
I think a discussion feels better.
Language is important, and how you frame things is important.
I concur, last time it was not a fight, it was not an argument, because we did not like dig our heels in,
(06:10):
which by the way is something I think we're going to end up talking about a little bit here.
And then like posture towards one another and stay really entrenched.
And a lot of the reason that didn't happen last time is because this is actually an old argument.
It's not actually occurring. We don't even feel particularly identified with all of this anymore.
But the point is, when things go down like this, in a way that we have experienced others around us at times,
(06:36):
we're like, do you guys really actually, do you talk like this when you're like,
and it's like, yes, do you not? And then we figure out, oh, again, there's like a, we kind of do things differently.
And in a way that is inextricably tied to who we are, which is also inextricably tied to being therapists.
And there's just kind of no way around that.
(06:57):
So we wanted to give everyone the benefit of process talk again, since although this did not arise at a level of an argument in our book,
it was uncomfortable and it was vulnerable for both of us.
I think one of the things we've been trying to figure out on the Closer Podcast is how close to let people in.
We don't really have any desire to be like exhibitionists and show everybody our dirty laundry constantly.
(07:22):
And at the same time, we do want to be authentic. And the line between those two things is, you know, murky at times.
We're trying to find our way in. And so we hadn't actually planned clearly to have that go that way last time.
So let's just talk about what we noticed.
Like, remember, these are the things that like maybe an ordinary conversation, you don't tell your friends or acquaintances,
(07:44):
but we want to tell each other. And a lot of it is around disclosing what was happening for us and maybe what we were noticing in the other.
Where do we start?
I think as the days went on post the podcast, after we listened to it and then we put it out there for everyone to listen to as well.
Like it continued to sort of like go round and round in my mind.
(08:09):
New feelings sort of came to the surface. New thoughts came about where I was in that moment.
And what I think I noticed for myself was we were sort of trudging along this one path talking about making friends as adults.
And then we stepped into this memory. And when we stepped into it, I instantly started feeling like this other iteration of self,
(08:39):
like this person who was 30 something, you know, early 30s and maybe smidge before that and who she was and what she feels.
And historically, that is, I think, the thing that when we do get into arguments is the thing that sort of sends it off the deep end if I don't welcome them in.
(09:05):
And so what I mean by that is she was very present this younger iteration of myself.
She very much still feels the things that she was talking about that day.
And normally, when that happens, I kind of tell her to shut up and I try to like present this other thing.
(09:28):
And I was letting her sort of stay there with me while I was talking with you.
This is the you that was originally, you know, in our lives.
Yeah.
X number of years ago, you were saying the stuff you were saying last time about like not wanting to feel, you know, feeling lonely, feeling alone,
(09:54):
feeling, you know, not a part of feeling like your identity was like sort of being subsumed by.
Yeah, I don't know if I had a strong grasp on who I was, and that was sort of where that was.
That was the thing. Right.
You know, and I kept running into these other pieces.
(10:16):
And when you and I started talking, what I noticed was instead of while she was there, instead of me being like, hey, we got this.
This is cool. Everything's fine. We can, you know, which was is that how you say shut up?
No, no, no. That instead of me saying that and I wasn't quite saying shut up, I just sort of was like enveloped by it.
(10:40):
And so sometimes you say shut up to her.
Sometimes I'm like, you're here and I got you. Don't you worry, friend.
Right. And then sometimes she just takes the keys and she's running the show.
OK, she was semi in and out of running the show.
And I think where I got stuck was I then started looking at you through her eyes instead of through the perspective that I have now,
(11:06):
which has so much more information and so much more understanding of myself and of you and of us in a dynamic.
And so she's running the show.
And what happened afterwards is I was remembering, gosh, there was a lot of other things going on for her at that time.
And that was really also in other than other than there was things more than just being a mom, more than just wanting friends.
(11:32):
There was a lot more than having consternation around those two points.
Yeah. Other things going on as well.
Yeah. And so many things not to unpack today, but like stuff between me and you.
So between you, stuff between like my family of origin and myself, just finding my place.
Who am I? I mean, work things, non-work things, friends, new city, just a lot of different emotions, a lot of different new things,
(12:01):
a lot of different painful things all happening, all that really contributed to the loneliness.
Yeah, I was going to say, what was the what's the impact and like, what about that?
Yeah, because I think back then I really kept to myself.
I didn't talk a lot to other people, which was part of here it is.
I had friends and I wasn't talking to them. I would have had some work.
(12:25):
But there was I was always sort of hesitant to open sort of that door and that room to other people.
I was very particular about who I would share it with.
And at the time, I think it was really like you and my therapist were two people that I would let know all the things.
Right. You kind of had all in those categories and then you are all that was, you know, available for you to know.
(12:53):
Right. Because this is all just like relative to your own, what you're aware of.
Right. And then sort of this is helpful. That's actually a good framework to that fits my experience.
You would kind of let us in all the way and pretty much everybody else was like somewhere way far away.
(13:14):
I mean, you weren't exactly binary. There were a few levels, but like all the levels, it was like we were at,
you know, 90 to 90 to 100 percent and everybody else was like under 20.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so there's such a disparity between the two.
Yeah. Massive one. And I think all of that contributes to who was showing up in that space last week, last week, last week, last episode.
(13:42):
And I'm looking at you and I'm I'm instantly that person.
I'm feeling those things that she felt. And I was overwhelmed with how sad she was.
So if I think about like what's happening between the two of us because of what was happening for me,
(14:05):
it was such a painful moment and felt very vulnerable to record it and put it out there for consumption.
I remember being somewhat. I don't know if I was surprised exactly,
but like I noticed that you did not request to not do that.
I was like aware of that, like, oh, we're going to we're going to go ahead and let this rip.
(14:28):
Yeah. Well, maybe it's like I think some of it is the evolution of self.
Right. And what I'm hoping to change about the way that I've done things historically.
Part of what I want is, you know, people to see that this happens and there is a way through it.
I mean, the thing that was so gratifying for me and it's we were just being us in that space was by the end of the episode,
(14:56):
I felt very connected to you. I felt like seen and heard.
And there wasn't I didn't leave that episode being like, wow, we got a lot of work to do here. Right.
The 30 something self would have said that. But the 46 something self is like, no, no, I'm actually really happy with that progress.
(15:21):
And people need to hear that. People need to see what that looks like. Yeah, that's helpful.
I don't know what I mean. What do you what do you think about what I'm saying or you know, I'm curious about your own experience.
I have the same thought at the end there about the idea that it's probably good for people to have some frame of reference for what that can sound like
(15:46):
in a way that I think I am. I don't know, naive to saddened by. I'm surprised sometimes when I hear that people will run into conversations like that
and they just really don't feel equipped to move through them. And so they don't.
So the conversation just kind of dies. One person gives up kind of one person, you know, which which certainly across time and space with us,
(16:13):
we've both given up, you know, in arguments or in, as we're saying, tense discussions or just period.
We're just like, I don't have any more energy for this right now. And I'm not really talking about that.
I mean, more like a no, we're giving up and we're this is kind of going to never like be a thing that we find our way back to or address or.
(16:36):
Otherwise, yeah, I mean. I also felt vulnerable.
Because I did some things that I do a lot. Yeah. And they were they are very visible, the things that I do, such as, you know, the thing where I like didn't answer the question.
(17:01):
Yeah. And I was actually not trying to be evasive. I really felt very grounded and present.
And I was like. I just I don't actually need to talk about this. I think you need to talk about it.
And I don't know how I knew that. And I think I was right somehow or something.
You know, I mean, of course, I drove it that way. And so, you know, but I mean, imagine if I had started the episode off by saying what I eventually said,
(17:30):
I'm fine. I'm good with this. You know, like I.
And that could have been one way to do it. Absolutely. But I noticed that, like, I am a person who creates tension and then like I work creatively with that tension.
That's like a thing. That's what I do in therapy. Yeah. It's like I may prolong a thing like driving the tension up because both you, me, everybody,
(17:57):
we become more pliable when tension is in the room.
Some people get stiff as a board. Right. Right. And you notice that and you try to work with that.
But most people actually, when held at the same time, like, no, no, I'm fully holding you.
I'm right here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm relatively even keeled emotionally.
(18:23):
Other than sort of responding to what's present and at the same time. No, I'm not doing that yet.
People get pliable. But here's the thing. Nothing about that for me as it was a very earnest thing I did.
I was not being gamey or something. It doesn't even occur to me because it was so intuitive. Right. I didn't know I was going to do that.
(18:45):
When you sat in the room. Right. But because I did that, I also see how irritating that could be.
Irritating is an exactly right word, though. Some people might be irritated by it.
I see that that is a sharp instrument or something. Yeah. I think that's a good way to describe it.
(19:09):
It's a very precise kind of instrument. And I see that in wielding it, it creates discomfort.
And I'm just aware that I was allowing a lot of discomfort to be in and I was not.
(19:32):
This is the word that's in my head. I was not rescuing you, me, us from it. Right.
And in noticing that, I had the thing go through my head again. This is as I on post alluded, as I listened to it.
And I'm like, dang, I was not. I wish I was softer, sort of. Which is to say, I could have slowed down.
(20:02):
Well, theoretically, I could have slowed down and kind of did what we eventually got to at the end. Right.
Which was the sort of like true confession. Hey, I love you. I'm sorry that this is and I'm sorry that I couldn't give you.
But that's it, actually. The same thing happened for me. I stepped back into that place where we were. Right.
(20:23):
And I could not give it to you. I was like prevented in a way because I was also being triggered,
in addition to this other thing that I'm talking about that I kind of do more generally anyways.
And I just I think that I must have some kind of like automatic belief,
(20:48):
which is like a thought that I don't really think, but is just evident in the way that I show up.
That if I'm, which it's crazy because I actually don't believe it when I say it, when I'm about to say it out loud.
Like something like if I if I break character there, like I'm going to lose something.
(21:13):
Like if I get too soft, it will somehow not have the net impact that like.
But again, all this makes it sound as though I'm thinking about I'm not thinking about any of this. It's just all intuitive.
But somewhere in there, when I can hear it in hindsight, it'd be like, I wish I would just be softer.
It's hard. And there last week, last episode, it was hard because I was also again feeling frustrated with your 30 year old self.
(21:43):
You know, 30 something year old self.
The thing that I hear, though, vis a vis everything I'm trying to get at is that you are asking for something wholly different than what I am pointing to.
Yes. And. I fail to see that some of the time and or.
(22:07):
I don't have it to give, and I think it's a little bit of both.
And the truth is, especially in a relationship like this, not therapy.
I am 100 percent in my own shit.
In therapy, you you ideally are your stuff is very present and therapists who claim otherwise. I wear different kinds of therapists.
(22:30):
That's true for you. What I can do is sort of hold that near me.
I actually do not suppress it. I do not push it away because I find that is actually a very interesting guide.
Yeah. And therapy is not something I want to have active without my very like good conscious awareness of its presence.
But I don't I don't like I'm like, hey, Ryan, interesting for you to know.
(22:54):
Well, let's check that out later. Right. Right.
If it's exclusively about me, if it's just me and you talking, I'm all, no, let's check that out right now.
You know, I'm in it. Just like you said, you became I sort of did as well.
And I on hearing that, I'm like, dang, this is the second time the last time, you know,
was episode three process talk where I'm like, I'm not.
(23:19):
I wish I would give you the thing.
But there is some kind of constitutional thing in me sometimes that I'm like, you know, not going to do it.
Well, they bring when they bring it, this junk share.
I mean, it's a George Bush or not, not senior, not G.W.
(23:41):
That's a Dana Carvey. Yes. We just date ourselves.
Yeah. That's totally a sediment life skit. Really OK by me.
You know, what's interesting is there are pieces in there that I'm like, yeah, I wish he was softer.
I wish he would have just offered me like, oh, sorry, babe. Sorry.
You felt that way. You know, my 30 year old self wanted that.
(24:05):
I have the benefit of 16 years of life post that time period with you,
with all kinds of interesting facts and experiences that were directly influenced by you not doing the soft thing.
And it's not that you were you. You offered me plenty of softness back then.
(24:27):
So I don't want it to be misunderstood that like you were some harsh asshole that I didn't love his wife and was just like,
suck it up and figure it out.
There was a lot of softness in recounting the pain.
I think there was room to be like, right. Right.
But one of the things I said to you this week was the benefit of the last 16 years is and and across the board in our relationship.
(24:56):
Is that you showing up the way that you do so intuitively and that sort of lean in towards the the hard and the direct kind of stuff
and not just buttering everything for me is what drove me into finding myself.
(25:17):
Yeah. And that is a gift that I would not return ever.
And I wouldn't return it for 500 more soft moments because I'm really thankful that that this iteration of self was OK with you posting that
or sharing that episode because I feel very confident in who I am and who we are.
(25:43):
And I don't think that my 30 something self could have said that.
And part of the reason she couldn't because she she hadn't done all the work right.
Which was primarily the path was lit by you in a lot of ways.
Yeah. You know, I appreciate you saying that.
I think I really deeply believe and believed that there was a process you were on and you had to do some things
(26:23):
in order to be relieved of where you were at and that there was no substitute.
I had this coming into clearer focus for me in some ways, even the feedback that I have heard over now, you know, 20 something years of mental health work about like
(26:44):
people are like, dang, dude, Ryan's going to light you up, bro.
Like, you know, and I'm always kind of like, seriously, honestly, I am always like, what are they really like?
Because again, I'm just kind of sitting down and being me, right.
Me mixed with my education and insight and experience and all that.
But me nonetheless. So it's actually really nice to hear you say that because I believed that for you and I believe it for others that you can have the things you're after.
(27:16):
But it often requires you to do the one thing that you will not do.
Yeah. And a lot of people want like their symptoms to go away so that they can do that thing.
Yeah. I'm always like, no, dude, you get cart before horse.
Yeah. And then they're like, well, how do and I'm like, yeah, now we're asking the right question.
How do I do that? That's right.
(27:38):
And like you're saying, in the retelling of the story, I just got caught back up in it because I think I felt defensive as well.
Yeah. Because I think I kept hearing originally or something that like maybe that, you know, it's funny.
You were talking about last week that they're, you know, like you kept as though I was telling you you were doing something wrong.
(28:04):
Right. And then I kept being like, I'm having the same experience.
I'm having the same experience in a way you're telling me I'm doing something wrong here.
Yeah. And again, what I can hear is if I could be softer, if I could go slower,
if I could actually tap into some of the actual deep feelings that I do have, which I can access at other times.
(28:28):
Yeah. But that would potentially actually enhance what I'm doing.
Yeah. But I do do like this is actually helpful for me because I'm hearing myself say this for the first time.
I do have some sort of inbuilt thing that's like, do not get to don't let too much of the tension out of the room.
The tension is the thing that is pressing us up against the glass being like I have to get out of here.
(28:55):
And it's like, that's correct. You do have to get out of here. What do you want to do?
And I feel often and if I throw a release valve, but you're my wife.
But I'm fucking like this. I know it's awful to live with.
You are like this. And the differences and you know, as we've talked about this and we've kind of
(29:16):
beyond just the episode from last week, we've talked about this kind of stuff the entirety of our marriage.
One of the things that happens is in this relationship, you show you show up as the human that you are.
And I show up as a human than I am. You do really successful work with your clients. I do really successful work.
We have two very different approaches on how we do that.
(29:40):
But what's common is we show up fully as ourselves in that space.
And when you do that, I think that regardless of whether or not you leave the pressure in the room
or you have a valve that releases a little bit of it at any point, you see miraculous things
because you are fully present and fully there. And if at 30 something, I was as present as I could be
(30:03):
with the access I had to myself and same for you. We offered each other what we could.
And some real good things came out of that. There was also some very painful things that came out of that time frame.
And I think the purpose is to try and make everything feel good all the time.
Nor is it to ignore real pain either. Absolutely.
(30:30):
And it's not even about a balance. It's just like what's needed right now.
What do we think now and then what's needed now?
And I mean, you can we can say all we want that like if you would have offered some other kind of response
in the episode last week that a different reaction would have happened.
Maybe. But I don't have that reflection back.
I have like, oh, no, it went exactly like it needed to because we did work through it.
(30:54):
And at the end of the episode, I felt really good about where I was out with you and with myself.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I would want to undo anything either.
I mean, part of the deal that we talked about when we go back to episode six again, bad blood, you know,
the inevitability of fighting in a relationship is maybe more inevitable.
(31:23):
Right. This is where we said back then we're not necessarily the idea here with this podcast is that people just get a layer closer.
That doesn't mean that you like what you see or that that we are telling you you should emulate what we do.
The thing is, by by showing up as our real selves all the time, there is some implicit, very human incompatibility.
(31:49):
Like a thing cannot go any better than it does as long as these two people are really who they are,
which is why I always say in therapy, I said it today, as a matter of fact, to a client,
if there is no fighting in a long term relationship, guaranteed someone is not talking, usually both parties.
And we were hip to this research as a part of our own couples therapy.
(32:15):
But I remember our counselor, the boss, the boss, he told us that as it regards research and please Google this to see if you can find it.
There are two kinds of couples primarily. There are high conflict couples and there are low conflict couples.
The low conflict couples tend not to have a major impasse in their relationship till way later.
(32:41):
For high conflict couples, it's usually after about year seven or eight from whence the phrase seven year itch emanates.
For lower conflict couples, it's almost double that. It's about 16 years.
So imagine, and the way that per the boss, the way that usually goes is that you come home one day and there's divorce papers on the table.
(33:02):
In a manner of speaking, even then there's not a ton of conflict per se.
I mean there may be a lot of things that ensue from that point, but it's just like, hey, this is over.
And why? Because we haven't had a conversation about anything for 16 years.
And I do think I have a healthy fear of not talking about things and I have an unhealthy fear about not talking about things,
(33:23):
which I have had to come off of in our relationship.
And speaking of things that I thought about, that is one of the things that I realized is you're the one that's helped me walk away from some of that.
You know, you highlight this thing between my dad and I, but my dad could tell you this too.
It also often did not go well. And for at least for me, it was not over after the thing was over.
(33:50):
I was still, you know, if we really got into it, it would. And that's the risk, right?
The risk of talking about anything is that it will get blown out of proportion or that it somehow injure one another.
And you've helped me walk that back. I mean, even when we're talking about your style in therapy,
I don't know that you're always throwing a release valve, as I've understood what you do,
(34:13):
but that you just leave the tension and don't keep pointing at it as relentlessly as I do.
I'll be like, yeah, but it's right there. Whatever else you're saying right now, it's right there.
Do you want it? You want out? No? Okay, you just want it. Okay, cool. No, we can leave it in the room.
You, you know, in the same way that you do in our lives, you know, you pick up the attention of the conversation
(34:40):
and you move it elsewhere and you allow that tension to sort of pass through you.
I oftentimes require it to be lodged. Yeah.
And that really demonstrates a fundamental difference in who we are and how we approach life.
And we can both see in our marriage and in our individual lives how those tendencies can be immensely helpful
(35:09):
and immensely self-defeating. Yes.
On the one end for you, you can be avoidant. And on the one end for me, I am like so relentless with a thing.
I just cannot let it drop. And neither of those really work.
And this is something that like does feel like another one of those things between us that, you know,
(35:34):
that you point to all the time. We're like, see, it's going to work itself out.
But there is a kind of like a rub down of our edges. Yeah.
And like gradually sanded down over time by, you know, one another's opposite tendencies.
The difficulty is in route to that point you want to destroy each other at the time or you dang near do.
(35:56):
And I would say that's another thing that I learned last week.
Like you, I liked where we ended and it felt complete.
It was just vulnerable because we let everybody see it.
And I'm like, OK, yes, this is how we do things. And you realize immediately like, I hope they see the whole.
I hope they heard the whole thing. Yeah.
(36:17):
And they listened all the way through. I could see how when we got to that point in the episode that that might be difficult for people to sit through.
Yes. Anybody who's got wounds from somebody who did not, you know, see their pain or reflect, validate their pain.
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. It would be really hard to. Yes. To sit through it.
And I think that if you did and you made it all the way to the end, congratulations.
(36:42):
You know, that's a success. Thank you. I would say to anybody who listened all the way through.
Absolutely. Thank you. If you didn't and you skipped it, you really should go back.
Yeah. Maybe with a little time and space. Yeah. You know, my perspective. Yeah, exactly.
I'm all go look at it. You're all give it some time. Yeah.
Which is whatever floats your boat. That's right. Yeah.
Just take it as you can. But, you know, there's there's something to that.
(37:06):
I know that a different iteration of myself, a younger version of myself, would have had a really hard time sitting in that space.
Not only as me, but listening to that conversation. Exactly.
And so maybe that's another thing. If you did have a hard time, we do understand.
Like we're trying to say it, but let's just say it plainly.
We understand and we. We care. Yeah.
(37:31):
It makes sense to us. Like this is again, like not it, not a not like a prescription for how you do things.
It's how we do them. It's one way. Yeah.
And that was to my point, by the way, was we are not where we once were. Right.
And like when we sort of came back to each other at the end, it was like, oh, we just went through a thing there, didn't we?
(37:55):
And that thing feels different than something that's like current active.
Right. In that we were able to go be in touch with that distress and tension and sadness and pain.
Frustration. Longing.
But that it felt a little bit like a, you know, a jacket that doesn't fit anymore.
(38:19):
It's like, oh, yeah, fat guy in a little coat sort of thing.
You know, it's like this doesn't actually this isn't ours anymore.
And then it was like, oh, we're not there anymore. Are we?
We don't do that. And even that type of.
Interaction with us these days where like.
(38:40):
You're needing. Some thing and I like.
We have just have less of that like kind of ships in the night missing one another thing these days.
If it's a part of any discussion, it tends to be a smaller part.
Unless we absolutely just tear it down, which we can do every once in a while. If you really screw it up.
(39:05):
Especially. Just kidding.
I mean, I just think that at some point that iteration of self took the keys and she was driving the car.
And. At some point, she looked over at the passenger seat and saw this iteration of self and was like.
(39:35):
Can you drive? Wow. And pulled over and like, let me get in the seat.
And I think that's what got me through that conversation and why I was able to like connect with you again at the end,
because I just like realized she needed me to drive the car and that like she had her time, she had her space.
(39:57):
She drove for a little bit. She felt in control, said what she needed to say.
But I was there in the car with her and it was like a recognizing that and then realizing that she that I didn't want it anymore.
And. And and sort of took took the passenger seat again, which was like interest for me.
(40:20):
That was a. Massive like successful moment to recognize about myself.
I know that I do that a lot, sort of like unconsciously, like I will do that kind of stuff in very little small ways that aren't as tension filled.
Or that are maybe, but I'm not doing it necessarily with another person.
(40:43):
It's kind of all within my own mind and my own experience.
So to be able to like. Watch that happen and then hear it back a few days later and be like, hell yeah, that's awesome.
That actually felt good. Yeah, I felt really good.
I think that's what gave me the comfort of having it be released for people to listen to is like, oh, there's no shame there for me.
(41:08):
Yeah. Like, no, there's nothing to be.
Any kind of way, but proud of. I feel really good about it.
Yeah, good for you.
So great image. Happy for you.
Nighttime sky.
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