December 10, 2024 • 49 mins
Ryan & Nicole begin the story of how they met, with the details going all the way back to 2007 and eHarmony, the mothership and original progenitor of what has since morphed into the world of apps for dating. Realizing that they hadn't told the story in a good long while and having not talked ahead of the podcast, they decided to wing it -- what emerges is humorous, touching, poignant, and always real. And in their signature style, the telling of the story itself is really only half the point -- the rest is to see what new relational threads they discover along the way. What they discover here in Part 1 of 2 surprises even them.
Discussed: origin story, how we became a couple, eHarmony, Sierra Leone, Virginia, Nashville, MySpace, on-again/off-again, early relationship, making my own mistakes, inner conflict in relationships, surety in relationships, staying in a relationship against the advice of others, and more.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Ryan Thomas Neace..
(00:02):
And this is Nicole Neace.
And this is the Closer Podcast.
Hi.
Hi.
That's a weird way I said hi.
Starting well.
Hi.
(00:23):
Hi.
Hi.
How's it going?
I don't even know what voice that is.
I don't either.
You should stop doing it.
Hello.
Hello, everybody.
This is episode eight.
Speaking of episode eight, we've been doing this long enough to now, eight episodes is
enough, to start saying, hey, if you like this, would you share it with your friends
(00:43):
and family and the general public?
Not just the people you think need it?
Because you may get yourself in hot water if you only send it to people who you think
could use.
Send it to everyone.
Send it to them.
Don't discriminate.
(01:03):
All the peoples.
Yeah, so if you like this, share it.
Today we're going to talk about how we met and kind of the ways that that conversation
has evolved and just kind of see what we notice about what's evolved.
(01:24):
Because we have not talked to one another about this in a really long time, to my recollection.
Yeah.
What reason would we have to?
I don't know.
This is like a, historically it was a thing that you really loved to talk about.
It really was.
Remember?
I don't know.
It was like, I loved to talk about it.
I just think people ask you how you meet, how you met.
(01:46):
And then I would tell my version of the story and you would tell your version of the story.
Yeah.
It's something that I'm more comfortable talking about now than I used to be.
I don't really even know why that I was uncomfortable.
I just found it a little annoying.
(02:07):
What?
I do.
I don't know.
What was annoying about it?
Well, part of what's annoying is the way that you answer it.
It's just that you had it packaged as a pitch for a TV series sort of thing.
(02:36):
And I was always like, hmm.
Did I?
I mean, it's the same dynamic as what we ended with on episode six in Bad Blood where you've
got it packaged as like a C. I swear it was all going to work out.
(02:57):
And I'm like, okay.
Clearly I think if we look at our first run at this, I have a harder time with anything
that presents itself as too neatly packaged.
I'm kind of like, yeah.
And that's been a thing between us.
Remember that some of the time over the past couple of years I've said to you, hey, I need
(03:22):
you to carry more of the dissonance and more of the doubt and more of the concern about
things.
If you do a little bit, at least that's my perspective, it gives me the freedom to take
up less resonance there.
You know what I'm saying?
I do.
(03:43):
I don't know how it applies to our...
What I'm saying is you tended to tell the story and so it will be interesting to hear
how you tell it today.
Yeah.
Probably just going to tell it exactly like I've always told it.
Exactly.
I don't know.
I suspect it will be different in some ways.
But you always kind of tell it in this very...
(04:07):
It's just a very wrapped up sort of way and that it was sort of like star crossed.
I don't think so.
You do.
Let's just let you tell it.
Okay.
Okay.
Let's just let you...
You can go...
I mean, I was actually thinking that we might try to tell it together, but maybe that's
not possible anymore.
Yeah.
I know.
(04:28):
I'm just game for whatever.
I don't think that I have the same perspective of the neatly packaged...
I mean, I would tell it as a story because that's how I tell most things in story format,
but I don't think that I tried to neatly package anything.
So let's see what happens.
Yeah.
Let's...
(04:48):
The gear was a 19...
Just kidding.
It wasn't.
It was actually a 2009.
The gear was one man, one desire, one decision.
Oh, see?
You're already plotting the movie trailer.
You've got the voice down.
It's already there.
(05:09):
It's already there.
Okay.
So, you want me to start?
What year was it?
It was 2007.
I'm living in Sierra Leone.
West Africa?
I had a friend who had just gotten engaged and she wanted me to meet somebody.
(05:30):
And I was not particularly feeling like I needed to meet someone as desperately as she
wanted me to meet someone.
Of course.
So true.
It is.
I had plans.
I had things I needed to do before some man was hitched to my hip.
That doesn't track with what you did in a little bit, but okay, keep going.
(05:50):
Yeah.
Whatever.
So, I had been there for a couple of weeks and she had said, you're never going to meet
anybody traveling all over the world.
Southern California was raped with men who were not looking to be in long-term relationships.
And so she said, get on eHarmony and you'll meet someone because that's where I met my
(06:14):
spouse.
And I remember thinking, and I may have even said to her, only weirdos.
Get online and meet their partner.
Yeah.
You have really good future prediction there.
Oh God, only weirdos will be meeting people through online interaction.
Little did I know.
Yes.
So this was in an era when smartphones had not even come out yet.
(06:39):
And so there's no online dating.
There's nothing like a smartphone to give you an app for online dating.
The only things that existed were a few websites.
Yeah.
eHarmony, Match.com existed and I think there was ones like, yeah, some random small ones.
Farmers only or something.
(06:59):
Yeah, you always say that one.
I remember it from The Bachelor.
Christian Mingle was another one.
And eHarmony was clearly the mothership in many ways and like a front runner of trying
to forge like real connection because they require you to take like a, we don't know
(07:22):
what they do anymore, but they require you to take a, back then a really long sort of
personality inventory.
And then they had sort of a bunch of steps in communicating with one another versus,
you know.
I remember back then somebody referred to Match.com as like the meat market, which was
(07:42):
just like, you can pretty much get on and meet people right away and start talking.
And so eHarmony was really the heavy, heavy hitter.
Yes.
And because some of the other ones you didn't have to pay to be a part of it, it did sort
of feel like if you signed up for eHarmony because you had to pay, you were more serious
(08:07):
about the process rather than, you know, just getting on and sort of swiping through lists
of men or women's faces.
So you know, I think part of it was that, but anyways, go back.
She says you should do this.
And I remember thinking only weirdos do that.
(08:27):
Not that I had any actual evidence that that was true or not.
But it was, it was a strange media.
Yeah, it was a strange media.
We didn't, there was nothing.
Yeah.
So after being there for a few weeks and was, had some free time on my hands, I decided,
you know, I would give it a go.
She had said, if you get on, get like the cheapest membership, if you get on and you
(08:49):
meet someone, you know, call it even.
If you don't meet anyone by the end of the, you know, whatever one you sign up for, I'll
pay you back.
And so it was a win-win for me.
I was like, okay, I'll get my money back.
Whatever.
So you needed that sort of a, yeah, I did.
I was broke, you know, I was 20, didn't have a 20 something.
I didn't have a whole lot of money.
(09:10):
Every little dollar counted.
So I got on and I did the test and I created the profile and I went through quite a few
duds.
What do you mean you went through them?
Well, in that, like, so you don't get to pick the people you're paired with, right?
On eHarmony, they pair you with people based off the, yeah, at least they did, based off
(09:32):
of the personality test.
And so through those things that you mentioned, there were a series of ways of communicating
before you'd get to open communication.
One of them was this section where they could ask you any question they wanted to ask you.
And every time I'd get to that portion, the guys that I had been talking with would ask
(09:54):
me things like, I don't know, what do you like to do on a Friday?
What's your favorite color?
Like just really stupid questions.
And so I would get there and I'd be like, I, why, why am I doing this?
It's not keeping my interest.
So I was, I was getting less and less interested as the days went on.
How long had you been on?
(10:15):
By the time you and I met, I think three and a half weeks.
I had bought, I think a two month package.
So I was getting ready to expire.
I was halfway through.
And I remember getting your profile.
So what they do is they send you like a snapshot.
I always refer to it.
All the people who are in their forties and above will remember this magazine.
(10:37):
If you are a girl, especially bop, it was a like popular teen magazine and that in there,
they'd always have profiles of famous people and they would tell you like what they like
to eat and what they like to do in their spare time and fun little tidbits.
And you as a 13 year old girl would be like, oh my gosh, me and Jason Priestley are totally
just destined to be together because we both like Laffy Taffy or something stupid like
(11:01):
that.
So the profile you would get, I remember it reminded me a lot of that because it was a
snapshot.
It was a picture of whoever you were talking to.
And then it was things like what's your favorite book?
What a friend say about you?
What are hopes and dreams for the future?
Those sorts of things.
What do you do for a living?
Yeah, I don't even remember what they don't remember much about the program.
(11:25):
It was really super basic.
That's all I can remember.
But I remember getting your profile and the second I got it and I saw your face, I just
had this feeling of like, oh, I'm gonna marry this guy.
And then I was like, oh no, I closed it down.
I was like, no, no, that's not a thing.
That was not a thing that I thought about anybody else nor was I going to think that
(11:49):
about some guy that I met online.
So I decided not to reach out to you and was just going to wait and see what would happen.
And the context you used to offer, by the way, there is just that you were really not
someone who spent a lot of time fantasizing about being married.
And is that still that true?
(12:10):
Is that really true?
You always say yes, it's very true.
Yeah, I did not think about getting especially at that stage.
I was on a whole nother trajectory.
I mean, I was open to meeting somebody.
But the idea of finding someone so I could hurry up and get married and have kids and
start a life that was just not not even on the top three of the important things that
I was looking at doing.
(12:32):
Yeah.
And for me, I remember choosing to get on there.
I was not very long out of a longer term relationship.
It was longer for me than maybe, I don't know, eight to 12 months, something like that.
Maybe it was more than a year.
(12:53):
I don't remember, but was just kind of like, well, this is as good a way as any.
And I was in a time of my life when I was kind of getting out of being out all the time
and going out and meeting people and hanging out at clubs or whatever.
I was near the end of grad school and that type of thing can get old quickly.
(13:20):
And then I just like also was not terribly interested in, you know, I met people at grad
school.
I had, you know, you know, church religious involvement.
I would, you know, meet people.
But I just wasn't meeting a ton of people or meeting people that I guess that felt like
(13:41):
options or something.
And I remember just thinking like, oh, maybe this is like a good way to sort of connect
at the level of the mind first or something.
And I don't, I hadn't been on, I don't think a ton longer than that myself.
So you got on with the intent of actually meeting someone?
(14:02):
Yeah, I mean, you didn't?
I don't know.
I'm just like, sometimes I'm like-
That's a strange question.
So you wanted to meet someone on the dating act.
I mean, like really, like you really were looking, because you were coming out of a
previous relationship.
So were you really looking to like truly meet someone or just sort of like move on and see
(14:24):
if you can get away from-
I think I was where I was at, at that time, which you ran into at a certain point, which
is that like, yes, I am willing to do this thing.
Whatever the next step supposedly is, I am not necessarily sure about that.
That's how I tended to orient in relationships some of the time.
(14:46):
Then occasionally I would meet someone and I would be like hopelessly in love and then
be crushed when it ended.
And typically I was the dump-y, I was not the dumper.
Not only and exclusively, but I was way more often than not.
Any of the times when I fell hard, you know, it was like, once I fell, I was like, I'm
(15:10):
good.
Okay.
So you got on, do you remember seeing my profile for the first time?
Yes, I do.
What was your reaction?
Do you remember that you wanted to marry me and you just couldn't, you had to lock it
down?
No, I didn't have any of those kinds of reactions.
I was, I had, I only met three women total on the whole site and you were the, you were
(15:34):
the second, because remember?
Yeah, I do.
I do remember.
I'll get to that in a moment, but I remember thinking the same thing that I thought about
the other two, which is I'm attracted to this person.
There's something that's kind of interesting about them.
Again, I don't know what it's like anymore at eHarmony, but I really did feel very, on
(15:59):
the level of personality, I was very well suited for all of the women that I met and
I remember your blue eyes and I remember like, oh, she's in Africa.
Interesting.
All right.
Maybe it would be very like me to be like, oh, okay, I'm intrigued.
(16:24):
And also probably latently aware that there's something sort of safe about the fact that
you are so far away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It may be worth also noting, I don't think I said this part, but when you could search
certain parameters of like area, right?
You could open it to the whole world.
You could pick specific states, whatever.
Yeah.
Geographic.
(16:44):
Yeah.
I did not want to meet anyone in Southern California or California period, because when
I got back to the U S I was moving to Nashville.
And so with my best friend, you were planning on coming back and moving to Nashville, at
least pretty, were you already on that track?
Yes.
So that track was already happening.
The timeline moved up because I came back from Africa sooner, but that was still the
plan.
(17:05):
And so I didn't want to meet anyone that was here that would keep me here.
So I intentionally kind of picked people in or around Tennessee because I was like, you
know, few states adjacent.
And so, okay, so I see your profile.
I'm like, holy crap.
And then I locked it down.
And then because of the time change, I actually, I heard from you, you wrote me first.
(17:31):
And it wasn't but a few hours after I had seen the, like the connection piece.
And so I got your first message through the first step series of steps.
We worked all the steps.
Right.
It was like closed, like closed questions that you picked like multiple choice from
(17:53):
a list that they had created.
And then there were some, what was it?
Open ended questions, maybe.
Yeah, it was like three boxes where you could put whatever questions you wanted.
And then, yes, you exchanged a list of must haves and can't stands, which you also picked
from a list of things that were like common rule outs for people in relationship.
(18:15):
And then by the time you got through all of that, I think you got to open communication
using their like, their email messaging applet.
And then finally, after that, you could choose to go through and get their actual contact
(18:35):
information.
Even then, I think a lot of times it was just email, not yet phone, and so forth.
And people were super dialed in to being protective at the time.
Everybody was sort of concerned.
It was you're inevitably going to get murdered.
But like, so by the time, you know, we start talking, I don't know how long it took us
to get through the planned communications.
(18:57):
I don't know the exact time either.
It was relatively quickly though, because the open dialogue probably within a week or
something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think we started and once we got to the open messaging part through eHarmony's website,
even that I think we moved off of that to regular email pretty quickly.
(19:18):
And by the end of...
We were really, you know, really risque.
We were.
You know, screw this.
We'll go straight to email.
Straight to email.
Watch out.
But the emails, you know, they were long.
They were a series of tons and tons of questions.
And then I would answer them.
And then I would ask you tons and tons of questions.
(19:39):
And I think for me, that was helpful on the front end of getting to know you, because
I was a little bit of a chicken shit when it came to going on dates with guys.
I would sort of fumble all over myself.
I would like them, date them, and break up with them before I would even give them my
name.
So I think the process of getting to know you through the confines of email and space
(20:06):
and time and not being right down the street or somebody that I knew really well was helpful.
So I was drawn in right away.
And then I moved back to the U.S. a little while longer and moved up my timeline to move
to Tennessee.
It was I was now going to be moving there in the beginning of July.
(20:27):
Originally I was supposed to move there like later that year.
So you're moving in July of 07.
So at that time, all during that time, you and I emailed back and forth for about three
months.
And then in March, you sent me an email that said, hey, I need to take a break.
(20:50):
And please don't wait for me.
If you find someone, I'm so happy for you.
I've got to take care of some stuff.
And I just remember being like, what?
Yeah.
What?
Yeah, dude.
I was still in the middle of so much, so much interpersonal work that I was doing.
(21:12):
And remember, this is I mean, at the time, I'm in graduate school studying counseling.
And I am not long off a number of sort of really important milestones in my own journey
of just sort of like discovering things about myself.
If this was 2007, I mean, I guess it had been a while, but would have been like 2000, 2001
(21:34):
is whenever I first had my own first counseling relationship.
And I was in counseling pretty good.
And that time also was still like I am currently with mentors and stuff.
So I was just really in like a self-development phase.
And also, by that, we mean that I had a lot of self-development to do.
(22:00):
And so I was just like variously, you know, you're going to say this is an unkind way
to refer to it, but I was unstable.
Yes, it is an unkind way to say it.
And I was just trying to figure myself out.
I mean, I'm relatively young.
How old were we?
27.
Yeah.
(22:20):
So we were in our late 20s when this was all going down.
So I just needed to take a break for a minute.
And I think I was also aware that you were developing real feelings and I was proceeding
slower.
And sort of I just like felt like I didn't have much to offer to access by way of like
(22:43):
feelings.
I wasn't ready to like feel a bunch of things because I again was not long off feeling a
bunch of things maybe.
Maybe.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I don't know what was happening for you during that time.
I don't know that we've ever like really dove too much into that.
I think I remember.
(23:05):
So you take the pause or you say peace out, you know, spoiler alert, we're married.
So you know that I came back around.
But I remember you taking the pause.
And at the time I had a blog, so we're just really going to pull out all kinds of ancient
things here that I would write about a lot of my time overseas on that blog because a
(23:27):
lot of people supported me financially.
So it was a good way to kind of let everybody know what was happening.
And you were still following that blog.
And what I didn't know at the time, but I now know is that you also created a blog.
But the only person who had access to that blog was me.
And so you would sort of like, even though we weren't talking every day via email or
(23:52):
anything, you would like write little blogs in response to my blogs or pictures you would
see of me on my space.
My space.
And I just remember being like, oh, okay, he's still in it.
So this works out really well for me because I'm still super interested.
(24:14):
And it's so nice, you always read things so charitably because it's like, you know, you
could also read that as, oh my gosh, this guy is telling you no.
And then he's over here.
I mean, I guess I just decided what I wanted.
I'll see what I want to see, I guess.
So I remember seeing those little pieces and the not talking to me thing via email and
(24:38):
or even by phone that that didn't last for but maybe like two, two and a half weeks maybe.
Because I remember it was a very specific day.
I had gotten into my car.
Someone had stole my iPod out of my car because I had left it in my car at my house.
And I went and I was already upset and pissed that that happened.
(25:00):
I stopped by Jamba Juice to get my daily smoothie on the way into the foster care place that
I worked at, spilt my smoothie all over the front seat of my car.
I remember this.
I'm already telling you about this.
Pulled up to the front of the building where we would check in to grab some napkins.
And then maybe the five minutes that I was in there getting some napkins, the head honcho
(25:22):
showed up and like just chewed me out for leaving my car where I did.
So I was just having a really rough day.
So I go in, I get my kids up, I was working in a foster home, I get them up and get them
sent to school and I had a couple down hours.
So in my down hours I got on my blog and wrote about what a shitty day I was having.
(25:42):
And shortly after that you asked if you could call me in response to that.
And I just remember being like, oh my gosh, this is going to be the first time that we
talk.
And it couldn't have turned the day around better.
Yeah, yeah.
So in that first 90 days we had not actually talked.
No, we had not.
We had only talked online.
Yeah.
And so you asked for a number you could call.
So you called the house phone that I was working at and we talked for like two hours until
(26:08):
the kids got home from school.
And then I had to finish up my day and leave.
And then it just like took off from there.
Right?
So this is I think maybe end of March near your birthday.
And we started talking every day.
And then in May it was Memorial Weekend and you called and said, it was like a Monday
(26:30):
and that weekend was Memorial Weekend.
You said, what are you doing this weekend?
And I said, not a lot.
And you said, do you want to come to Virginia?
And I said, sure do.
You said, okay, I'm going to book you a ticket.
And you booked me a ticket on the phone with me and I flew out there and I was supposed
to go for three days and instead I went for five days.
(26:52):
We extended my time because I was just that amazing.
You were so blown away by me.
And then shortly after that came back and I was headed to, so this was maybe beginning
of June, I was headed to Nashville a month later.
(27:13):
Yes.
What's crazy is like I do remember all this stuff, but a lot of it is foggier for me.
This is what I mean.
Like I was in a different place.
Like I still kind of had my head up my rear end.
I'm like recorder button not on as well or something.
(27:33):
And I remember really liking you and feeling very comfortable with you.
And I remember picking you up at the airport and bringing you back to my house and all
of that.
And I remember that you were definitely feeling it.
I did, you know, ask you to restrain yourself with timers too.
(27:59):
PG, this is PG people.
I'm going to check the explicit box.
And I'm serious.
I had to ask Nikki to restrain herself with timers.
This is where we do tell the story slightly different because you act as though I'm the
(28:19):
only one who was like, oh, you were feeling it too, bro.
Yeah.
The difficulty here is that I was had considerably more experience in the dating plus arena.
Absolutely.
And so some of this was a little more standard for me.
(28:41):
Like this wasn't well, I mean, the idea, I don't know how to say this.
You're painting it really beautifully.
This is great.
I just mean the idea that I met someone that it was going reasonably well right off the
bat or that you seem to be really.
Oh my gosh.
(29:03):
I can't say.
I had experienced this type of thing before.
And so I was open, but also again, in both my own way and then the way as it regards
relationship just proceeding slower.
Yeah, totally.
You definitely were slower than me the whole time.
(29:25):
And that I'm sure was necessary, but it was also whatever it was.
Like I don't know that if it would have been any different speed, I don't know what else
would have happened, but it went just as it was supposed to be is how I feel about it.
So the visit went well.
I think it went well.
You think it went well?
Yeah.
Okay.
(29:46):
So I leave.
And here's where the tune changes just a little bit for the guy who's been through a lot of
dating experience and me not so much.
I was moving to Tennessee in a month.
You asked me, hey, if I moved to Tennessee, is that cool with you?
And on the inside, I was freaking out like a little school girl and was super duper excited.
(30:10):
On the outside, my words were, and I remember them verbatim.
Yeah, that's cool.
I mean, I'm moving there either way.
I would love to have you there.
Which again is such a great response because you can see how, especially in Lorde, today's
jibber jabber culture with dating, the irony that people seem so hungry for connection
(30:36):
these days and that everything that seemingly happens in route to dating can be read as
you're being too much kind of thing.
Oh my gosh.
Because really, I mean, thinking about it, that was 30 days off the you being there or
something and I'm saying, hey, what if I moved to Nashville?
(30:58):
And it's like, okay, that seems like a really big step.
And the truth is for me, I really did not like where I was at in Virginia for a variety
of reasons.
And I was not tied there.
I had gone to school out there and was just kind of out there working and being an adult
and trying to figure that whole thing out.
(31:21):
And so I was like, well, I don't know, Nashville's good.
Yeah.
There's really nothing tying me there.
And I thought, you know, we got along well and certainly I could explore.
So you were not freaked out by that?
No, it was really.
(31:41):
I was signed me up.
I was ready for it to happen.
I was like, yeah, bro, let's go.
Was anybody freaked out by it in your life?
No, I think everybody, I think everyone who knew me knew that because I was never, I didn't
date a ton by choice.
And then when I did date would move on relatively quickly.
I think when they saw the way that I felt about you and because I walked them through
(32:06):
every step up until that point, everyone who was close to me was part of the journey.
I think they were like, yeah, okay.
You know, they were in it for me as well.
And so, you know, I moved there July 2nd.
You did as well.
(32:27):
And I think this is where often when we're telling the story to friends, it can be shorter
or longer depending on how much we add into the storyline because this is where the real
dating really happens.
Right?
So I moved in with some friends of mine until my best friend was moving out about a month
(32:48):
later and we were going to get our own apartment.
So I was staying at a house with a married couple.
You were working at a place that would take you away during the week and you would only
be home on the weekends.
Yeah, for that time period I was in training in Memphis.
Yeah.
And during the week I would come over and take care of your cats.
I would live at your house, take care of your cats.
(33:09):
And on the weekend I would go back to mine, but we would usually spend the weekend together.
Right?
So about a month of that happens.
And one weekend you came home, I think a bit earlier than what I thought you were going
to be home.
I had just gotten in a car accident like the week before, so I had a rental that I had
just turned in.
(33:30):
And getting the car rental back and getting back to the house, I hadn't cleaned my stuff
up yet.
And you came home and my shit was all over your house.
Which I mean you had been saying that.
Yes, right.
But it was very like lived in whereas the weekends before maybe when I came home you
were saying you had cleaned it up already.
Right, all my stuff was gone.
(33:51):
Yeah.
It was as though I was not there.
Yeah.
Yes.
Which I apparently preferred.
I think so.
And so we had planned to be together that weekend and instead you kind of were like
this is too much.
And you broke up with me.
It was a very long breakup.
I don't remember what was really going on with me really.
(34:13):
This is what I mean again.
I just came home and was like overwhelmed by the presence of you there.
I'm like holy crap.
Like wait a minute.
Here it is again.
It's like this is moving too fast.
Yes.
That's the common.
That's the common.
Yeah.
And you had a you know understandably although you didn't say much to me then.
(34:36):
I don't remember what you said.
But you were like dude you've asked me to be over here.
Yes I would.
Like yes my stuff is and I'm just like and I think it must have been highlighting again
my I had conflict about it.
I liked you.
I thought this was kind of nifty and I just kept being drawn back to I don't know if I'm
(34:59):
ready for this.
And at that point it's less about my previous relationships per se and more about just me.
This is just kind of like who I am.
I'm like you know conflicted about things.
Right.
It's like you know it's a thing.
And so you know the part of the story that was that is truly movie ask if you want to
(35:25):
say how I paint this picture is it was storming.
I didn't have a car.
My housemates were gone because they were on a trip that weekend.
I had their power and their power went out and I had no food at the house because I hadn't
been there all week and I hadn't planned on being there for the weekend.
I didn't know anybody else in town except for one girl that I worked with who I had
known for about a month.
And I had so no food no car no power no friends no boyfriend.
(35:51):
Where was your best friend that you had moved out.
Yeah.
She's about three weeks off.
Maybe that's what I didn't like.
You know because this is a part of the story that I always find that I'm like irritated
with because I'm like I think this is it.
I'm like you can't rely on me this much.
Yeah.
Totally.
Right.
Like you I get it.
(36:12):
I get your circumstance.
I am also in town not knowing anyone and not.
Yeah.
But I'm thinking that I'm going to go spend the weekend by myself.
And granted I guess you know were the people you were with weren't there and you were needing
support and but I think there must be something about that that was part of it.
(36:32):
I needed food and Uber Eats didn't exist yet.
Yeah.
Like there was.
No but you could get a taxi and you could.
Yeah.
But you had your car back.
No I didn't have my car back.
I had turned my rental in because I was supposed to actually stay with you for the weekend.
We had planned to do things that weekend.
Yes.
Yeah.
And so you broke up with me gave me one final kiss at the door in the rain.
(36:54):
I mean it couldn't be more cinematic than that.
Just come on.
And then he turned and walked away and I wept until I reached out to my one and only work
friend who at the time her and her husband came and picked me up and they brought me
to their house and let me stay in their guest room.
You must have really made it like you were this poor destitute.
(37:17):
You're 28.
I was 27.
You have plenty of agency.
I was 27.
Fair enough.
I was 27.
I was broke in a new city with no friends on a stormy night.
Alright.
It just felt like a lot for me apparently.
Yeah well you know I came in hot and heavy in the rest of your lifetime.
I've been easy peasy.
(37:39):
So yeah so then we broke up.
But then you still needed someone to take care of your cats because you didn't know
anybody in town either.
And that was another thing that you did again.
Like you just sort of did each thing correctly which like I was not trying to do this by
(38:02):
for sure because I like my recorder is just not on as I said but like it is a thing that
I do relationally sometimes that is 100% earnest.
It isn't actually gamey.
It's kind of like who I am.
I think I set up like little obstacles to see how you cope with them sort of thing.
(38:27):
You know what I mean?
It isn't that it's a binary though right.
Like I set up an obstacle and you think well did you jump over it or did you trip over
it.
And if you tripped over it well then you lost and if you jumped over it you won and I'm
like no.
How did you jump over it?
What happened when you fell over?
You know like that sort of thing.
So I do think you played your cards really well with me at each turn because it was basically
(38:53):
like I was like cool I want you close and then I'd be like I don't want you close and
you would do that.
And sort of except for I didn't know that you were seducing me.
Masterminding it over here the whole time.
What he didn't know was that every time so I continued to take care of his cats for the
remainder of his training.
(39:13):
Potentially against the advice of some friends.
Yes absolutely against the advice of every person in my life except for one.
They all were like oh that's probably not the best of ideas and I said well you don't
know.
And actually me and the best friend who moved there very shortly after this you know the
(39:35):
only argument we've ever had was around me continuing to engage with you.
That's awesome.
And it was.
Glad I could be the source of.
Yes well but what it was was I knew if this was a mistake it was a mistake I had to make
not one that someone could save me from.
So it was like let me make the mistake.
So I did I continued to take care of the cats.
(39:59):
It's also in I think just in my nature.
It wasn't all just about trying to you know seduce you into coming back to me.
But I damn sure did make sure I smelled good looked good and all those things every time
I dropped those keys at the end of the weekend.
It would be like oh don't you miss this.
And you did you would ask me to go out and spend time together as friends.
(40:22):
I remember that one time in the blue polka dot dress.
And we went we went to Steak and Shake.
We did.
Remember.
I do remember.
They don't have Steak and Shake in California.
If you've never had it you are letting the best in life pass you by.
Yep.
We went.
Need to check it out somewhere.
I was in a very cute blue and white polka dot dress with a red belt.
I remember that outfit.
And then there was the other time to the mall.
(40:43):
Yep.
Good old buckle.
Went in to get some jeans.
The guy that helped me you in the middle of him helping me you left the store.
I finished.
I walked out.
I said why did you leave.
And your phrase was do you remember.
I don't but I'm sure you're going to tell me.
You were super upset.
I said why are you upset.
(41:04):
And you said just because I broke up with you doesn't mean I don't still have feelings
for you.
And it was right then where I said cha-ching.
And I was like oh yeah bitches.
I got him.
So I said that internally but I also was pissed at you because I was like you have some nerve
right to like be mad that someone else is giving me some attention.
(41:28):
I actually didn't notice that at all.
I don't think he was doing anything.
I think he was just trying to make commission by selling some jeans.
So he was being helpful.
But I'll take whatever it produced in you because that was like step one I think in
the starting to turn back towards because this is like mid-October and you went back
(41:50):
to Virginia in October to do some dental work I think.
I did.
I had some dental work that had been rather extensive and some of it had needed to be
slightly repaired and they offered to fix it for free if I came back out.
And so I did and while I was there I ran into like an old fling I would say.
(42:18):
And she sort of implied if not outright stated that I in her estimation I appeared to be
fat and pale that I had apparently gained weight and lost my tan since we left.
(42:38):
And I remember I was staying at this friend of mine's house.
I was staying in his attic and I remember at the end of that night I went up to bed
and I was sort of laying in the bed staring at the attic ceiling.
And I remember thinking I don't know what I'm looking for in all of these relationships
(43:01):
that I've had and whatever it is I'm not seeming to find it.
And then I remember just sort of thinking sort of like okay dude you have this woman
back in Nashville that is clearly into you dying to be with you and you're you know going
back and forth and then you're over here seeking out a woman who's treats you like this.
(43:27):
Like what's the deal here?
And I was like I don't know what the deal is.
But all right I'm gonna not do that.
And so then I did.
I think what I did was like call you or email you and I said like can we talk when I get
(43:48):
back is what I remember saying.
Yeah.
And then we did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was listen I would have said outside of some of the hiccups of the ending of our
relationship the first part of our relationship the there was a lot of like really beautiful
(44:09):
wonderful moments and you treated me really well.
But the version of you I got when you decided to like go all in which is how I like think
about the time after you came back from Lynchburg was just totally different.
And I was like holy crap is this like was I getting like the B minus version and now
this is the A plus version.
(44:29):
And like getting the version that was not where you were.
Yeah but you know I don't know what that says about me that I was this version but the A
plus version was I don't know if I would have married the B minus one but the A plus version
that came back around I mean it was just like night and day difference.
Yeah.
(44:49):
The one that comes to mind is intentional.
Yeah you were very intentional.
What you had before was me sort of casually being like yeah yeah yeah yeah this is cool.
Yeah.
And as a matter of fact that's it was during this breakup time period also where I met
the third woman who as a matter of fact I was kind of doing the same thing with although
(45:14):
it was just you know whatever 60 days or something whatever the kind of down period was.
And she actually asked me to sort of like hey like are you into this like I'm into it
like I need you to be into it.
And I said sort of what I'm saying to you was like like yeah yes I'm into this.
(45:38):
Like if you are asking me to be farther than this no I'm not there yet and no I cannot
give you any guarantees.
And by the way this was like a new leaf for me somewhat because I think I used to accidentally
I grew up thinking you were supposed to be more covert about this sort of thing and if
I didn't I learned it because I kept getting my heart broken and so I was guarded and she
(46:04):
was like no I'm good on that.
Like if you can't give me any if you can't give me any more assurance I'm like yeah I
like what's happening right now.
Which is an interesting approach by the way.
Yeah.
I meet a lot of people who clients and otherwise who sort of have that approach in dating and
I'm like you know what are you wanting them to like double stamp like yes I'm into this
(46:26):
forever or.
But I also understand at the same time she was just saying like hey I'm getting the sense
that you are ambivalent.
And whereas I would say that was not the right move if she had wanted to she would have had
to be with me where I was at.
You were willing to do that.
Be with me where I was at and sort of see what happened.
(46:47):
Yeah.
Whenever I came back I was like okay let's do this.
Yeah.
And then you get a lot more of my like intention.
I don't know why that.
What's happening?
I don't really know.
I think it's just like hearing you say that which is not the first time I've heard you
(47:26):
say it.
I just like.
Nice to remember like.
Like I don't know exactly remember that about me.
(47:47):
Like nice to be noticed.
You know.
Like yeah whenever I put myself into something you know like I'm really there.
Like I really inhabit the space once I'm into it.
And maybe that was like I think that's like a bruise for me like over like not just romantic
(48:13):
relationships but like relationships is sort of like people not noticing like the level
of intentionality I put into things and or treating it very casually if they do notice.
And maybe I think a lot of women didn't know what to do with it because it's also intense
(48:34):
sort of thing or something.
I only know that because that's the feedback.
I'm just like well this is just who I am.
I don't know what you want from me.
You don't want me to show up at your house at midnight.
No I'm just kidding.
I didn't do stuff like that.
No me neither.
Maybe I'm not above it.
You were also 20 something.
I mean come on.
I didn't I didn't see that coming.
I didn't expect to be moved by that.
(48:59):
It's weird.
I like it.
I like you remembering that for yourself and what that feels like.
This is Ryan Thomas Neace..
(00:02):
And this is Nicole Neace.
And this is the Closer Podcast.
Hi.
Hi.
That's a weird way I said hi.
Starting well.
Hi.
(00:23):
Hi.
Hi.
How's it going?
I don't even know what voice that is.
I don't either.
You should stop doing it.
Hello.
Hello, everybody.
This is episode eight.
Speaking of episode eight, we've been doing this long enough to now, eight episodes is
enough, to start saying, hey, if you like this, would you share it with your friends
(00:43):
and family and the general public?
Not just the people you think need it?
Because you may get yourself in hot water if you only send it to people who you think
could use.
Send it to everyone.
Send it to them.
Don't discriminate.
(01:03):
All the peoples.
Yeah, so if you like this, share it.
Today we're going to talk about how we met and kind of the ways that that conversation
has evolved and just kind of see what we notice about what's evolved.
(01:24):
Because we have not talked to one another about this in a really long time, to my recollection.
Yeah.
What reason would we have to?
I don't know.
This is like a, historically it was a thing that you really loved to talk about.
It really was.
Remember?
I don't know.
It was like, I loved to talk about it.
I just think people ask you how you meet, how you met.
(01:46):
And then I would tell my version of the story and you would tell your version of the story.
Yeah.
It's something that I'm more comfortable talking about now than I used to be.
I don't really even know why that I was uncomfortable.
I just found it a little annoying.
(02:07):
What?
I do.
I don't know.
What was annoying about it?
Well, part of what's annoying is the way that you answer it.
It's just that you had it packaged as a pitch for a TV series sort of thing.
(02:36):
And I was always like, hmm.
Did I?
I mean, it's the same dynamic as what we ended with on episode six in Bad Blood where you've
got it packaged as like a C. I swear it was all going to work out.
(02:57):
And I'm like, okay.
Clearly I think if we look at our first run at this, I have a harder time with anything
that presents itself as too neatly packaged.
I'm kind of like, yeah.
And that's been a thing between us.
Remember that some of the time over the past couple of years I've said to you, hey, I need
(03:22):
you to carry more of the dissonance and more of the doubt and more of the concern about
things.
If you do a little bit, at least that's my perspective, it gives me the freedom to take
up less resonance there.
You know what I'm saying?
I do.
(03:43):
I don't know how it applies to our...
What I'm saying is you tended to tell the story and so it will be interesting to hear
how you tell it today.
Yeah.
Probably just going to tell it exactly like I've always told it.
Exactly.
I don't know.
I suspect it will be different in some ways.
But you always kind of tell it in this very...
(04:07):
It's just a very wrapped up sort of way and that it was sort of like star crossed.
I don't think so.
You do.
Let's just let you tell it.
Okay.
Okay.
Let's just let you...
You can go...
I mean, I was actually thinking that we might try to tell it together, but maybe that's
not possible anymore.
Yeah.
I know.
(04:28):
I'm just game for whatever.
I don't think that I have the same perspective of the neatly packaged...
I mean, I would tell it as a story because that's how I tell most things in story format,
but I don't think that I tried to neatly package anything.
So let's see what happens.
Yeah.
Let's...
(04:48):
The gear was a 19...
Just kidding.
It wasn't.
It was actually a 2009.
The gear was one man, one desire, one decision.
Oh, see?
You're already plotting the movie trailer.
You've got the voice down.
It's already there.
(05:09):
It's already there.
Okay.
So, you want me to start?
What year was it?
It was 2007.
I'm living in Sierra Leone.
West Africa?
I had a friend who had just gotten engaged and she wanted me to meet somebody.
(05:30):
And I was not particularly feeling like I needed to meet someone as desperately as she
wanted me to meet someone.
Of course.
So true.
It is.
I had plans.
I had things I needed to do before some man was hitched to my hip.
That doesn't track with what you did in a little bit, but okay, keep going.
(05:50):
Yeah.
Whatever.
So, I had been there for a couple of weeks and she had said, you're never going to meet
anybody traveling all over the world.
Southern California was raped with men who were not looking to be in long-term relationships.
And so she said, get on eHarmony and you'll meet someone because that's where I met my
(06:14):
spouse.
And I remember thinking, and I may have even said to her, only weirdos.
Get online and meet their partner.
Yeah.
You have really good future prediction there.
Oh God, only weirdos will be meeting people through online interaction.
Little did I know.
Yes.
So this was in an era when smartphones had not even come out yet.
(06:39):
And so there's no online dating.
There's nothing like a smartphone to give you an app for online dating.
The only things that existed were a few websites.
Yeah.
eHarmony, Match.com existed and I think there was ones like, yeah, some random small ones.
Farmers only or something.
(06:59):
Yeah, you always say that one.
I remember it from The Bachelor.
Christian Mingle was another one.
And eHarmony was clearly the mothership in many ways and like a front runner of trying
to forge like real connection because they require you to take like a, we don't know
(07:22):
what they do anymore, but they require you to take a, back then a really long sort of
personality inventory.
And then they had sort of a bunch of steps in communicating with one another versus,
you know.
I remember back then somebody referred to Match.com as like the meat market, which was
(07:42):
just like, you can pretty much get on and meet people right away and start talking.
And so eHarmony was really the heavy, heavy hitter.
Yes.
And because some of the other ones you didn't have to pay to be a part of it, it did sort
of feel like if you signed up for eHarmony because you had to pay, you were more serious
(08:07):
about the process rather than, you know, just getting on and sort of swiping through lists
of men or women's faces.
So you know, I think part of it was that, but anyways, go back.
She says you should do this.
And I remember thinking only weirdos do that.
(08:27):
Not that I had any actual evidence that that was true or not.
But it was, it was a strange media.
Yeah, it was a strange media.
We didn't, there was nothing.
Yeah.
So after being there for a few weeks and was, had some free time on my hands, I decided,
you know, I would give it a go.
She had said, if you get on, get like the cheapest membership, if you get on and you
(08:49):
meet someone, you know, call it even.
If you don't meet anyone by the end of the, you know, whatever one you sign up for, I'll
pay you back.
And so it was a win-win for me.
I was like, okay, I'll get my money back.
Whatever.
So you needed that sort of a, yeah, I did.
I was broke, you know, I was 20, didn't have a 20 something.
I didn't have a whole lot of money.
(09:10):
Every little dollar counted.
So I got on and I did the test and I created the profile and I went through quite a few
duds.
What do you mean you went through them?
Well, in that, like, so you don't get to pick the people you're paired with, right?
On eHarmony, they pair you with people based off the, yeah, at least they did, based off
(09:32):
of the personality test.
And so through those things that you mentioned, there were a series of ways of communicating
before you'd get to open communication.
One of them was this section where they could ask you any question they wanted to ask you.
And every time I'd get to that portion, the guys that I had been talking with would ask
(09:54):
me things like, I don't know, what do you like to do on a Friday?
What's your favorite color?
Like just really stupid questions.
And so I would get there and I'd be like, I, why, why am I doing this?
It's not keeping my interest.
So I was, I was getting less and less interested as the days went on.
How long had you been on?
(10:15):
By the time you and I met, I think three and a half weeks.
I had bought, I think a two month package.
So I was getting ready to expire.
I was halfway through.
And I remember getting your profile.
So what they do is they send you like a snapshot.
I always refer to it.
All the people who are in their forties and above will remember this magazine.
(10:37):
If you are a girl, especially bop, it was a like popular teen magazine and that in there,
they'd always have profiles of famous people and they would tell you like what they like
to eat and what they like to do in their spare time and fun little tidbits.
And you as a 13 year old girl would be like, oh my gosh, me and Jason Priestley are totally
just destined to be together because we both like Laffy Taffy or something stupid like
(11:01):
that.
So the profile you would get, I remember it reminded me a lot of that because it was a
snapshot.
It was a picture of whoever you were talking to.
And then it was things like what's your favorite book?
What a friend say about you?
What are hopes and dreams for the future?
Those sorts of things.
What do you do for a living?
Yeah, I don't even remember what they don't remember much about the program.
(11:25):
It was really super basic.
That's all I can remember.
But I remember getting your profile and the second I got it and I saw your face, I just
had this feeling of like, oh, I'm gonna marry this guy.
And then I was like, oh no, I closed it down.
I was like, no, no, that's not a thing.
That was not a thing that I thought about anybody else nor was I going to think that
(11:49):
about some guy that I met online.
So I decided not to reach out to you and was just going to wait and see what would happen.
And the context you used to offer, by the way, there is just that you were really not
someone who spent a lot of time fantasizing about being married.
And is that still that true?
(12:10):
Is that really true?
You always say yes, it's very true.
Yeah, I did not think about getting especially at that stage.
I was on a whole nother trajectory.
I mean, I was open to meeting somebody.
But the idea of finding someone so I could hurry up and get married and have kids and
start a life that was just not not even on the top three of the important things that
I was looking at doing.
(12:32):
Yeah.
And for me, I remember choosing to get on there.
I was not very long out of a longer term relationship.
It was longer for me than maybe, I don't know, eight to 12 months, something like that.
Maybe it was more than a year.
(12:53):
I don't remember, but was just kind of like, well, this is as good a way as any.
And I was in a time of my life when I was kind of getting out of being out all the time
and going out and meeting people and hanging out at clubs or whatever.
I was near the end of grad school and that type of thing can get old quickly.
(13:20):
And then I just like also was not terribly interested in, you know, I met people at grad
school.
I had, you know, you know, church religious involvement.
I would, you know, meet people.
But I just wasn't meeting a ton of people or meeting people that I guess that felt like
(13:41):
options or something.
And I remember just thinking like, oh, maybe this is like a good way to sort of connect
at the level of the mind first or something.
And I don't, I hadn't been on, I don't think a ton longer than that myself.
So you got on with the intent of actually meeting someone?
(14:02):
Yeah, I mean, you didn't?
I don't know.
I'm just like, sometimes I'm like-
That's a strange question.
So you wanted to meet someone on the dating act.
I mean, like really, like you really were looking, because you were coming out of a
previous relationship.
So were you really looking to like truly meet someone or just sort of like move on and see
(14:24):
if you can get away from-
I think I was where I was at, at that time, which you ran into at a certain point, which
is that like, yes, I am willing to do this thing.
Whatever the next step supposedly is, I am not necessarily sure about that.
That's how I tended to orient in relationships some of the time.
(14:46):
Then occasionally I would meet someone and I would be like hopelessly in love and then
be crushed when it ended.
And typically I was the dump-y, I was not the dumper.
Not only and exclusively, but I was way more often than not.
Any of the times when I fell hard, you know, it was like, once I fell, I was like, I'm
(15:10):
good.
Okay.
So you got on, do you remember seeing my profile for the first time?
Yes, I do.
What was your reaction?
Do you remember that you wanted to marry me and you just couldn't, you had to lock it
down?
No, I didn't have any of those kinds of reactions.
I was, I had, I only met three women total on the whole site and you were the, you were
(15:34):
the second, because remember?
Yeah, I do.
I do remember.
I'll get to that in a moment, but I remember thinking the same thing that I thought about
the other two, which is I'm attracted to this person.
There's something that's kind of interesting about them.
Again, I don't know what it's like anymore at eHarmony, but I really did feel very, on
(15:59):
the level of personality, I was very well suited for all of the women that I met and
I remember your blue eyes and I remember like, oh, she's in Africa.
Interesting.
All right.
Maybe it would be very like me to be like, oh, okay, I'm intrigued.
(16:24):
And also probably latently aware that there's something sort of safe about the fact that
you are so far away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It may be worth also noting, I don't think I said this part, but when you could search
certain parameters of like area, right?
You could open it to the whole world.
You could pick specific states, whatever.
Yeah.
Geographic.
(16:44):
Yeah.
I did not want to meet anyone in Southern California or California period, because when
I got back to the U S I was moving to Nashville.
And so with my best friend, you were planning on coming back and moving to Nashville, at
least pretty, were you already on that track?
Yes.
So that track was already happening.
The timeline moved up because I came back from Africa sooner, but that was still the
plan.
(17:05):
And so I didn't want to meet anyone that was here that would keep me here.
So I intentionally kind of picked people in or around Tennessee because I was like, you
know, few states adjacent.
And so, okay, so I see your profile.
I'm like, holy crap.
And then I locked it down.
And then because of the time change, I actually, I heard from you, you wrote me first.
(17:31):
And it wasn't but a few hours after I had seen the, like the connection piece.
And so I got your first message through the first step series of steps.
We worked all the steps.
Right.
It was like closed, like closed questions that you picked like multiple choice from
(17:53):
a list that they had created.
And then there were some, what was it?
Open ended questions, maybe.
Yeah, it was like three boxes where you could put whatever questions you wanted.
And then, yes, you exchanged a list of must haves and can't stands, which you also picked
from a list of things that were like common rule outs for people in relationship.
(18:15):
And then by the time you got through all of that, I think you got to open communication
using their like, their email messaging applet.
And then finally, after that, you could choose to go through and get their actual contact
(18:35):
information.
Even then, I think a lot of times it was just email, not yet phone, and so forth.
And people were super dialed in to being protective at the time.
Everybody was sort of concerned.
It was you're inevitably going to get murdered.
But like, so by the time, you know, we start talking, I don't know how long it took us
to get through the planned communications.
(18:57):
I don't know the exact time either.
It was relatively quickly though, because the open dialogue probably within a week or
something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think we started and once we got to the open messaging part through eHarmony's website,
even that I think we moved off of that to regular email pretty quickly.
(19:18):
And by the end of...
We were really, you know, really risque.
We were.
You know, screw this.
We'll go straight to email.
Straight to email.
Watch out.
But the emails, you know, they were long.
They were a series of tons and tons of questions.
And then I would answer them.
And then I would ask you tons and tons of questions.
(19:39):
And I think for me, that was helpful on the front end of getting to know you, because
I was a little bit of a chicken shit when it came to going on dates with guys.
I would sort of fumble all over myself.
I would like them, date them, and break up with them before I would even give them my
name.
So I think the process of getting to know you through the confines of email and space
(20:06):
and time and not being right down the street or somebody that I knew really well was helpful.
So I was drawn in right away.
And then I moved back to the U.S. a little while longer and moved up my timeline to move
to Tennessee.
It was I was now going to be moving there in the beginning of July.
(20:27):
Originally I was supposed to move there like later that year.
So you're moving in July of 07.
So at that time, all during that time, you and I emailed back and forth for about three
months.
And then in March, you sent me an email that said, hey, I need to take a break.
(20:50):
And please don't wait for me.
If you find someone, I'm so happy for you.
I've got to take care of some stuff.
And I just remember being like, what?
Yeah.
What?
Yeah, dude.
I was still in the middle of so much, so much interpersonal work that I was doing.
(21:12):
And remember, this is I mean, at the time, I'm in graduate school studying counseling.
And I am not long off a number of sort of really important milestones in my own journey
of just sort of like discovering things about myself.
If this was 2007, I mean, I guess it had been a while, but would have been like 2000, 2001
(21:34):
is whenever I first had my own first counseling relationship.
And I was in counseling pretty good.
And that time also was still like I am currently with mentors and stuff.
So I was just really in like a self-development phase.
And also, by that, we mean that I had a lot of self-development to do.
(22:00):
And so I was just like variously, you know, you're going to say this is an unkind way
to refer to it, but I was unstable.
Yes, it is an unkind way to say it.
And I was just trying to figure myself out.
I mean, I'm relatively young.
How old were we?
27.
Yeah.
(22:20):
So we were in our late 20s when this was all going down.
So I just needed to take a break for a minute.
And I think I was also aware that you were developing real feelings and I was proceeding
slower.
And sort of I just like felt like I didn't have much to offer to access by way of like
(22:43):
feelings.
I wasn't ready to like feel a bunch of things because I again was not long off feeling a
bunch of things maybe.
Maybe.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I don't know what was happening for you during that time.
I don't know that we've ever like really dove too much into that.
I think I remember.
(23:05):
So you take the pause or you say peace out, you know, spoiler alert, we're married.
So you know that I came back around.
But I remember you taking the pause.
And at the time I had a blog, so we're just really going to pull out all kinds of ancient
things here that I would write about a lot of my time overseas on that blog because a
(23:27):
lot of people supported me financially.
So it was a good way to kind of let everybody know what was happening.
And you were still following that blog.
And what I didn't know at the time, but I now know is that you also created a blog.
But the only person who had access to that blog was me.
And so you would sort of like, even though we weren't talking every day via email or
(23:52):
anything, you would like write little blogs in response to my blogs or pictures you would
see of me on my space.
My space.
And I just remember being like, oh, okay, he's still in it.
So this works out really well for me because I'm still super interested.
(24:14):
And it's so nice, you always read things so charitably because it's like, you know, you
could also read that as, oh my gosh, this guy is telling you no.
And then he's over here.
I mean, I guess I just decided what I wanted.
I'll see what I want to see, I guess.
So I remember seeing those little pieces and the not talking to me thing via email and
(24:38):
or even by phone that that didn't last for but maybe like two, two and a half weeks maybe.
Because I remember it was a very specific day.
I had gotten into my car.
Someone had stole my iPod out of my car because I had left it in my car at my house.
And I went and I was already upset and pissed that that happened.
(25:00):
I stopped by Jamba Juice to get my daily smoothie on the way into the foster care place that
I worked at, spilt my smoothie all over the front seat of my car.
I remember this.
I'm already telling you about this.
Pulled up to the front of the building where we would check in to grab some napkins.
And then maybe the five minutes that I was in there getting some napkins, the head honcho
(25:22):
showed up and like just chewed me out for leaving my car where I did.
So I was just having a really rough day.
So I go in, I get my kids up, I was working in a foster home, I get them up and get them
sent to school and I had a couple down hours.
So in my down hours I got on my blog and wrote about what a shitty day I was having.
(25:42):
And shortly after that you asked if you could call me in response to that.
And I just remember being like, oh my gosh, this is going to be the first time that we
talk.
And it couldn't have turned the day around better.
Yeah, yeah.
So in that first 90 days we had not actually talked.
No, we had not.
We had only talked online.
Yeah.
And so you asked for a number you could call.
So you called the house phone that I was working at and we talked for like two hours until
(26:08):
the kids got home from school.
And then I had to finish up my day and leave.
And then it just like took off from there.
Right?
So this is I think maybe end of March near your birthday.
And we started talking every day.
And then in May it was Memorial Weekend and you called and said, it was like a Monday
(26:30):
and that weekend was Memorial Weekend.
You said, what are you doing this weekend?
And I said, not a lot.
And you said, do you want to come to Virginia?
And I said, sure do.
You said, okay, I'm going to book you a ticket.
And you booked me a ticket on the phone with me and I flew out there and I was supposed
to go for three days and instead I went for five days.
(26:52):
We extended my time because I was just that amazing.
You were so blown away by me.
And then shortly after that came back and I was headed to, so this was maybe beginning
of June, I was headed to Nashville a month later.
(27:13):
Yes.
What's crazy is like I do remember all this stuff, but a lot of it is foggier for me.
This is what I mean.
Like I was in a different place.
Like I still kind of had my head up my rear end.
I'm like recorder button not on as well or something.
(27:33):
And I remember really liking you and feeling very comfortable with you.
And I remember picking you up at the airport and bringing you back to my house and all
of that.
And I remember that you were definitely feeling it.
I did, you know, ask you to restrain yourself with timers too.
(27:59):
PG, this is PG people.
I'm going to check the explicit box.
And I'm serious.
I had to ask Nikki to restrain herself with timers.
This is where we do tell the story slightly different because you act as though I'm the
(28:19):
only one who was like, oh, you were feeling it too, bro.
Yeah.
The difficulty here is that I was had considerably more experience in the dating plus arena.
Absolutely.
And so some of this was a little more standard for me.
(28:41):
Like this wasn't well, I mean, the idea, I don't know how to say this.
You're painting it really beautifully.
This is great.
I just mean the idea that I met someone that it was going reasonably well right off the
bat or that you seem to be really.
Oh my gosh.
(29:03):
I can't say.
I had experienced this type of thing before.
And so I was open, but also again, in both my own way and then the way as it regards
relationship just proceeding slower.
Yeah, totally.
You definitely were slower than me the whole time.
(29:25):
And that I'm sure was necessary, but it was also whatever it was.
Like I don't know that if it would have been any different speed, I don't know what else
would have happened, but it went just as it was supposed to be is how I feel about it.
So the visit went well.
I think it went well.
You think it went well?
Yeah.
Okay.
(29:46):
So I leave.
And here's where the tune changes just a little bit for the guy who's been through a lot of
dating experience and me not so much.
I was moving to Tennessee in a month.
You asked me, hey, if I moved to Tennessee, is that cool with you?
And on the inside, I was freaking out like a little school girl and was super duper excited.
(30:10):
On the outside, my words were, and I remember them verbatim.
Yeah, that's cool.
I mean, I'm moving there either way.
I would love to have you there.
Which again is such a great response because you can see how, especially in Lorde, today's
jibber jabber culture with dating, the irony that people seem so hungry for connection
(30:36):
these days and that everything that seemingly happens in route to dating can be read as
you're being too much kind of thing.
Oh my gosh.
Because really, I mean, thinking about it, that was 30 days off the you being there or
something and I'm saying, hey, what if I moved to Nashville?
(30:58):
And it's like, okay, that seems like a really big step.
And the truth is for me, I really did not like where I was at in Virginia for a variety
of reasons.
And I was not tied there.
I had gone to school out there and was just kind of out there working and being an adult
and trying to figure that whole thing out.
(31:21):
And so I was like, well, I don't know, Nashville's good.
Yeah.
There's really nothing tying me there.
And I thought, you know, we got along well and certainly I could explore.
So you were not freaked out by that?
No, it was really.
(31:41):
I was signed me up.
I was ready for it to happen.
I was like, yeah, bro, let's go.
Was anybody freaked out by it in your life?
No, I think everybody, I think everyone who knew me knew that because I was never, I didn't
date a ton by choice.
And then when I did date would move on relatively quickly.
I think when they saw the way that I felt about you and because I walked them through
(32:06):
every step up until that point, everyone who was close to me was part of the journey.
I think they were like, yeah, okay.
You know, they were in it for me as well.
And so, you know, I moved there July 2nd.
You did as well.
(32:27):
And I think this is where often when we're telling the story to friends, it can be shorter
or longer depending on how much we add into the storyline because this is where the real
dating really happens.
Right?
So I moved in with some friends of mine until my best friend was moving out about a month
(32:48):
later and we were going to get our own apartment.
So I was staying at a house with a married couple.
You were working at a place that would take you away during the week and you would only
be home on the weekends.
Yeah, for that time period I was in training in Memphis.
Yeah.
And during the week I would come over and take care of your cats.
I would live at your house, take care of your cats.
(33:09):
And on the weekend I would go back to mine, but we would usually spend the weekend together.
Right?
So about a month of that happens.
And one weekend you came home, I think a bit earlier than what I thought you were going
to be home.
I had just gotten in a car accident like the week before, so I had a rental that I had
just turned in.
(33:30):
And getting the car rental back and getting back to the house, I hadn't cleaned my stuff
up yet.
And you came home and my shit was all over your house.
Which I mean you had been saying that.
Yes, right.
But it was very like lived in whereas the weekends before maybe when I came home you
were saying you had cleaned it up already.
Right, all my stuff was gone.
(33:51):
Yeah.
It was as though I was not there.
Yeah.
Yes.
Which I apparently preferred.
I think so.
And so we had planned to be together that weekend and instead you kind of were like
this is too much.
And you broke up with me.
It was a very long breakup.
I don't remember what was really going on with me really.
(34:13):
This is what I mean again.
I just came home and was like overwhelmed by the presence of you there.
I'm like holy crap.
Like wait a minute.
Here it is again.
It's like this is moving too fast.
Yes.
That's the common.
That's the common.
Yeah.
And you had a you know understandably although you didn't say much to me then.
(34:36):
I don't remember what you said.
But you were like dude you've asked me to be over here.
Yes I would.
Like yes my stuff is and I'm just like and I think it must have been highlighting again
my I had conflict about it.
I liked you.
I thought this was kind of nifty and I just kept being drawn back to I don't know if I'm
(34:59):
ready for this.
And at that point it's less about my previous relationships per se and more about just me.
This is just kind of like who I am.
I'm like you know conflicted about things.
Right.
It's like you know it's a thing.
And so you know the part of the story that was that is truly movie ask if you want to
(35:25):
say how I paint this picture is it was storming.
I didn't have a car.
My housemates were gone because they were on a trip that weekend.
I had their power and their power went out and I had no food at the house because I hadn't
been there all week and I hadn't planned on being there for the weekend.
I didn't know anybody else in town except for one girl that I worked with who I had
known for about a month.
And I had so no food no car no power no friends no boyfriend.
(35:51):
Where was your best friend that you had moved out.
Yeah.
She's about three weeks off.
Maybe that's what I didn't like.
You know because this is a part of the story that I always find that I'm like irritated
with because I'm like I think this is it.
I'm like you can't rely on me this much.
Yeah.
Totally.
Right.
Like you I get it.
(36:12):
I get your circumstance.
I am also in town not knowing anyone and not.
Yeah.
But I'm thinking that I'm going to go spend the weekend by myself.
And granted I guess you know were the people you were with weren't there and you were needing
support and but I think there must be something about that that was part of it.
(36:32):
I needed food and Uber Eats didn't exist yet.
Yeah.
Like there was.
No but you could get a taxi and you could.
Yeah.
But you had your car back.
No I didn't have my car back.
I had turned my rental in because I was supposed to actually stay with you for the weekend.
We had planned to do things that weekend.
Yes.
Yeah.
And so you broke up with me gave me one final kiss at the door in the rain.
(36:54):
I mean it couldn't be more cinematic than that.
Just come on.
And then he turned and walked away and I wept until I reached out to my one and only work
friend who at the time her and her husband came and picked me up and they brought me
to their house and let me stay in their guest room.
You must have really made it like you were this poor destitute.
(37:17):
You're 28.
I was 27.
You have plenty of agency.
I was 27.
Fair enough.
I was 27.
I was broke in a new city with no friends on a stormy night.
Alright.
It just felt like a lot for me apparently.
Yeah well you know I came in hot and heavy in the rest of your lifetime.
I've been easy peasy.
(37:39):
So yeah so then we broke up.
But then you still needed someone to take care of your cats because you didn't know
anybody in town either.
And that was another thing that you did again.
Like you just sort of did each thing correctly which like I was not trying to do this by
(38:02):
for sure because I like my recorder is just not on as I said but like it is a thing that
I do relationally sometimes that is 100% earnest.
It isn't actually gamey.
It's kind of like who I am.
I think I set up like little obstacles to see how you cope with them sort of thing.
(38:27):
You know what I mean?
It isn't that it's a binary though right.
Like I set up an obstacle and you think well did you jump over it or did you trip over
it.
And if you tripped over it well then you lost and if you jumped over it you won and I'm
like no.
How did you jump over it?
What happened when you fell over?
You know like that sort of thing.
So I do think you played your cards really well with me at each turn because it was basically
(38:53):
like I was like cool I want you close and then I'd be like I don't want you close and
you would do that.
And sort of except for I didn't know that you were seducing me.
Masterminding it over here the whole time.
What he didn't know was that every time so I continued to take care of his cats for the
remainder of his training.
(39:13):
Potentially against the advice of some friends.
Yes absolutely against the advice of every person in my life except for one.
They all were like oh that's probably not the best of ideas and I said well you don't
know.
And actually me and the best friend who moved there very shortly after this you know the
(39:35):
only argument we've ever had was around me continuing to engage with you.
That's awesome.
And it was.
Glad I could be the source of.
Yes well but what it was was I knew if this was a mistake it was a mistake I had to make
not one that someone could save me from.
So it was like let me make the mistake.
So I did I continued to take care of the cats.
(39:59):
It's also in I think just in my nature.
It wasn't all just about trying to you know seduce you into coming back to me.
But I damn sure did make sure I smelled good looked good and all those things every time
I dropped those keys at the end of the weekend.
It would be like oh don't you miss this.
And you did you would ask me to go out and spend time together as friends.
(40:22):
I remember that one time in the blue polka dot dress.
And we went we went to Steak and Shake.
We did.
Remember.
I do remember.
They don't have Steak and Shake in California.
If you've never had it you are letting the best in life pass you by.
Yep.
We went.
Need to check it out somewhere.
I was in a very cute blue and white polka dot dress with a red belt.
I remember that outfit.
And then there was the other time to the mall.
(40:43):
Yep.
Good old buckle.
Went in to get some jeans.
The guy that helped me you in the middle of him helping me you left the store.
I finished.
I walked out.
I said why did you leave.
And your phrase was do you remember.
I don't but I'm sure you're going to tell me.
You were super upset.
I said why are you upset.
(41:04):
And you said just because I broke up with you doesn't mean I don't still have feelings
for you.
And it was right then where I said cha-ching.
And I was like oh yeah bitches.
I got him.
So I said that internally but I also was pissed at you because I was like you have some nerve
right to like be mad that someone else is giving me some attention.
(41:28):
I actually didn't notice that at all.
I don't think he was doing anything.
I think he was just trying to make commission by selling some jeans.
So he was being helpful.
But I'll take whatever it produced in you because that was like step one I think in
the starting to turn back towards because this is like mid-October and you went back
(41:50):
to Virginia in October to do some dental work I think.
I did.
I had some dental work that had been rather extensive and some of it had needed to be
slightly repaired and they offered to fix it for free if I came back out.
And so I did and while I was there I ran into like an old fling I would say.
(42:18):
And she sort of implied if not outright stated that I in her estimation I appeared to be
fat and pale that I had apparently gained weight and lost my tan since we left.
(42:38):
And I remember I was staying at this friend of mine's house.
I was staying in his attic and I remember at the end of that night I went up to bed
and I was sort of laying in the bed staring at the attic ceiling.
And I remember thinking I don't know what I'm looking for in all of these relationships
(43:01):
that I've had and whatever it is I'm not seeming to find it.
And then I remember just sort of thinking sort of like okay dude you have this woman
back in Nashville that is clearly into you dying to be with you and you're you know going
back and forth and then you're over here seeking out a woman who's treats you like this.
(43:27):
Like what's the deal here?
And I was like I don't know what the deal is.
But all right I'm gonna not do that.
And so then I did.
I think what I did was like call you or email you and I said like can we talk when I get
(43:48):
back is what I remember saying.
Yeah.
And then we did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was listen I would have said outside of some of the hiccups of the ending of our
relationship the first part of our relationship the there was a lot of like really beautiful
(44:09):
wonderful moments and you treated me really well.
But the version of you I got when you decided to like go all in which is how I like think
about the time after you came back from Lynchburg was just totally different.
And I was like holy crap is this like was I getting like the B minus version and now
this is the A plus version.
(44:29):
And like getting the version that was not where you were.
Yeah but you know I don't know what that says about me that I was this version but the A
plus version was I don't know if I would have married the B minus one but the A plus version
that came back around I mean it was just like night and day difference.
Yeah.
(44:49):
The one that comes to mind is intentional.
Yeah you were very intentional.
What you had before was me sort of casually being like yeah yeah yeah yeah this is cool.
Yeah.
And as a matter of fact that's it was during this breakup time period also where I met
the third woman who as a matter of fact I was kind of doing the same thing with although
(45:14):
it was just you know whatever 60 days or something whatever the kind of down period was.
And she actually asked me to sort of like hey like are you into this like I'm into it
like I need you to be into it.
And I said sort of what I'm saying to you was like like yeah yes I'm into this.
(45:38):
Like if you are asking me to be farther than this no I'm not there yet and no I cannot
give you any guarantees.
And by the way this was like a new leaf for me somewhat because I think I used to accidentally
I grew up thinking you were supposed to be more covert about this sort of thing and if
I didn't I learned it because I kept getting my heart broken and so I was guarded and she
(46:04):
was like no I'm good on that.
Like if you can't give me any if you can't give me any more assurance I'm like yeah I
like what's happening right now.
Which is an interesting approach by the way.
Yeah.
I meet a lot of people who clients and otherwise who sort of have that approach in dating and
I'm like you know what are you wanting them to like double stamp like yes I'm into this
(46:26):
forever or.
But I also understand at the same time she was just saying like hey I'm getting the sense
that you are ambivalent.
And whereas I would say that was not the right move if she had wanted to she would have had
to be with me where I was at.
You were willing to do that.
Be with me where I was at and sort of see what happened.
(46:47):
Yeah.
Whenever I came back I was like okay let's do this.
Yeah.
And then you get a lot more of my like intention.
I don't know why that.
What's happening?
I don't really know.
I think it's just like hearing you say that which is not the first time I've heard you
(47:26):
say it.
I just like.
Nice to remember like.
Like I don't know exactly remember that about me.
(47:47):
Like nice to be noticed.
You know.
Like yeah whenever I put myself into something you know like I'm really there.
Like I really inhabit the space once I'm into it.
And maybe that was like I think that's like a bruise for me like over like not just romantic
(48:13):
relationships but like relationships is sort of like people not noticing like the level
of intentionality I put into things and or treating it very casually if they do notice.
And maybe I think a lot of women didn't know what to do with it because it's also intense
(48:34):
sort of thing or something.
I only know that because that's the feedback.
I'm just like well this is just who I am.
I don't know what you want from me.
You don't want me to show up at your house at midnight.
No I'm just kidding.
I didn't do stuff like that.
No me neither.
Maybe I'm not above it.
You were also 20 something.
I mean come on.
I didn't I didn't see that coming.
I didn't expect to be moved by that.
(48:59):
It's weird.
I like it.
I like you remembering that for yourself and what that feels like.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.