November 24, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode of The Codependent Doctor, I’m sitting down with Emotional Freedom & Transformation Coach Jason Johnson to talk about what he calls detrimental kindness, that sneaky pattern of being “too nice” at your own expense. We explore how overgiving, people-pleasing, and chronic guilt quietly erode your health, identity, and relationships, and how to begin practicing kindness in a way that actually includes you. Jason walks us through his RELEASE Framework™, a simple roadmap to recognize your patterns, let go of guilt, reclaim your voice, and start setting boundaries without feeling like a terrible person. He also shares honestly about his own journey with addiction, self-sabotage, and overgiving, and the turning point that helped him stop abandoning himself in the name of being “the good friend.” If you’ve ever felt resentful after saying yes, or afraid that saying no makes you selfish, this conversation will help you see that you’re not broken—you’re programmed, and you can be re-programmed.
Connect with Jason:
Instagram: @coachjasonjohnson
Facebook: @jasonjohnson
Jason’s book: Detrimental Kindness: How Not to Lose Yourself While Helping Others. (As an Amazon affiliate, I may earn a small commission if you purchase through this link, at no extra cost to you.)
This episode includes a paid partnership with BetterHelp. Click this link, betterhelp.com/drdowney, to get 10% off your first month.
📗 My Books: Enough as I Am (codependency recovery) Enough as I Grow (365 day guide journal). Affiliate disclosure: I am an affiliate parner with Amazon and therefore receive a commission at no cost to you.
📙My Favorite books:
Daring Greatly by Brenee Brown, It Begins With You by Jillian Turecki, Becoming Bulletproof by Evy Poumpouras, The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins, Real Self-Care by Pooja Lakshmin.
Affiliate disclosure: I am an affiliate parner with Amazon and therefore receive a commission at no cost to you.
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🎵 Music: Touching The Air by Graceful Movement
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Today's episode is all about breaking free from
that exhausting cycle of beingtoo nice.
You know when that kindnessturns into self-abandonment,
overgiving, and guilt.
My guest, Jason Johnson, is hereto share how detrimental
kindness shows up in our livesand what we can do instead.
We're gonna dive into hisrelease framework, which is a
simple, practical way to let goof guilt, reclaim your
(01:13):
boundaries, and start livingmore authentically.
And you'll also hear Jason's ownpersonal story of
transformation, which I think isgonna inspire you to believe
that change is possible for youtoo.
Welcome to the CodependentDoctor, a podcast where we
unpack the messy, beautifuljourney of healing from
codependency.
If you're burned out from peoplepleasing, stuck in unhealthy
(01:33):
patterns, or just tired ofputting yourself last, you're in
the right place.
I'm Dr.
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, and I'm
here to help you reconnect toyour authentic self, one honest
conversation at a time.
Here we go.
Hello to all my wonderfulpodcast listeners, and welcome
to the Codependent Doctor.
I'm your host, Dr.
(01:54):
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, here to
help us untangle our patterns,heal our hearts, and reclaim our
peace.
For today's episode, we have aguest with us.
Jason Johnson is an emotionalfreedom and transformation
coach, author and creator ofDetrimental Kindness and the
Release Framework.
With over a decade of coachingexperience, Jason helps people
(02:15):
break free from people-pleasing,overgiving, and self-abandonment
so that they can reclaim theirpower and live authentically.
He is also the author ofmultiple coloring books and
combines personal experience,psychological insights, and
coaching to inspire sustainablechange to those that he works
with.
I'm really excited to have Jasonhere today because he brings
such a unique perspective onsomething so many of us are
struggling with (02:38):
people pleasing and giving until we are
completely depleted.
What I love about this approachis that it's not just theory,
it's a created framework that'sreally easy to remember and
actually put into practice ineveryday life.
So, my friends, help me inwelcoming Jason Johnson to the
show.
So, welcome, Jason.
(02:58):
I'm so glad that you're able tojoin us today.
How are you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
I'm doing well.
Thank you so much for asking.
And it's uh it's a pleasure tobe here.
It's a pet pleasure uh to be ina space uh with um individuals
like yourself who uh just have aspace where we can come and have
like an open conversation uhabout different things and
especially about like ourwell-being.
So thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Absolutely.
I'm so glad that you're able tomake it.
And I really appreciate whenpeople are able to come on the
show and share some of theirstories and are willing to be
vulnerable uh with my audience.
They they're able to learn a lotwhen we when we open up a little
bit.
Jason, one of the traditions onmy show is that we discuss what
we're grateful for because whenwe stop and think about what
we're grateful for, it helps ourbrains focus on the things that
(03:45):
are working in our lives insteadof what's missing or what's
broken.
So I'd like to ask you, is thereanything that you're especially
grateful for today?
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Yeah, what what came to mind this morning uh was
present.
I'm grateful for presence.
Uh I noticed that uh my mind attimes uh can get a little jumpy.
It jumps from one idea uh to thenext, um, which I know sometimes
that's gonna happen, right?
Have things to do, to-do list orwhatnot.
(04:14):
Uh but just to just be in themoment, uh, allowing my mind to
maybe jump from something thathappened or jump to something
that may happen uh is okay, butI get to just be present and
watch what's going on.
I don't have to get caught intoit.
Uh I just get to just be.
Um, so that's what I'm gratefulfor, is presence.
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
That's amazing.
I tend to have two modes.
I have scattered brain where Imy mind's all over the place, or
where I become hyper-focused andobsessed about one particular
thing.
Not sure what that's all about,but I do like taking that time
to just sit and focus on beingpresent, but it's not something
that naturally comes to me atall.
(04:57):
But absolutely super importantto be grounded in the present.
For me, I I love nature.
I like, I love wildlife, and I'mso grateful for my neighborhood.
It is just taming with deer.
And this year we've had severalbabies come out.
And this morning I was watchingthem just being super goofy in
the field out across my house.
(05:17):
It's fantastic.
I love these uh goofy littleguys.
They're pr they're funny.
Yeah, nice to watch.
So maybe we can start by havingyou introduce yourself and tell
us about your journey tobecoming a coach and an author.
SPEAKER_01 (05:30):
Sure.
Yeah.
I'm Jason Johnson, and I am theauthor of several coloring
books.
Uh, they are uh transformationalcoloring books, I call them,
because they take you on ajourney of expressing yourself
but through art.
Um, I'm also the author of abook or my book that was just
published back at the end ofJune.
(05:52):
Uh it is called DetrimentalKindness, um, how not to lose
yourself while helping others.
Um, it has been quite theexperience, not only writing the
book, but connecting with peopleabout this uh very, very
important topic.
So, as far as like my coachingexperience, I started off as a
(06:12):
fitness coach, uh, helpingpeople hit their health goals,
whether it was uh losing weightor you know, working on
improving like their uh healthconditions, like maybe high
blood sugar or high bloodpressure, that type of thing.
Um, and then I started to noticelike more patterns beyond just
the physical.
Uh, we are more than just thephysical.
(06:33):
So I noticed that things keptpopping up.
So I uh began to kind of expandand work with individuals who
maybe did not have a physicalgoal uh that they wanted to
accomplish.
Maybe it was something else,like having boundaries uh in
their relationships or justhaving peace of mind.
Uh so that's how I kind of uh Iguess you'd say, I don't know,
(06:53):
maybe morphed uh into becominglike a life coach or I say
transformational coach, reallyhelping individuals take their
life into their own hands uh andand get to a place where they
are just simply okay uh with whothey are and what they're up to.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Yeah, there is a connection between how we eat
and and how we take care ofourselves on a daily basis and
how our mental health is doing.
So sometimes if if things aren'tgoing well in our minds, we are
codependent, we're not able toset boundaries, then we end up
eating to kind of cope with someof those feelings that we just
don't know how to fix.
So it really is allinterrelated.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
Yeah, it definitely is.
And I always tell clients if ifI leave them with no other piece
of advice is that we're notgoing to be perfect at it
either.
I still have moments where Inotice where I'm like stressed
or having to run, and there isstill that tendency or default
to want to grab something or dosome other type of process.
(07:54):
Um, but I'm able to catch itnow, and that's why I said I'm
grateful for presence because itreminds me when that panic mode
kicks in that okay, I just needto take a quick moment.
Sometimes it's like just aminute.
Um, one of my favorite things todo is to practice box breathing,
which is breathing in for fourminutes.
Yep, you hold it for fourseconds, you uh breathe out for
(08:18):
four seconds, and then youactually hold it out for four
seconds as well.
And my mind still is kind of alittle bit jumpy there as well,
but it brings me back to like,okay, I am here uh and I am
present.
Um, so yeah, it's totallyconnected.
We're not going to be perfect atit, uh, but it's about making
progress.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
So your book is called Detrimental Kindness, and
this is kind of a phrase thatyou've coined for yourself.
So can you break that down?
What does that look like ineveryday life and why this is
particularly important forcodependence?
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Yeah, I love that question.
Thanks for asking.
Um, so detrimental kindness, andit sounds like uh, I don't know,
maybe an oxymoron.
Like people kind of raise theireyebrows, like, wait, what?
How can kindness be bad or bedetrimental?
And it came from personalexperience of just naturally
being the type of individualthat likes to give, that loves
(09:11):
helping others.
But I had realized over a periodof time that my kindness became
detrimental, meaning that I wasactually damaging myself in
different ways.
The number one sign that I sawwas that I was that I was
resentful.
And so it didn't mean that Iwasn't giving out of the
kindness of my heart, but inthat giving, I was leaving
(09:32):
myself out, or I was leavingmyself in a position to be
resentful, to be frustrated, orto even hide uh as well.
That is why I say that it'sdetrimental because the other
person is on the receiving end,but the giver uh is actually
being uh left out, or the giveris being uh not necessarily
(09:55):
hurt, but shortchanged uh insome type of way.
Uh so that's where the phrasedetrimental kindness came from.
And it's important, I would say,for codependents, because there
is a tendency with codependentsto feel that their worth or
their value is tied to what youcan do for others or for being
(10:16):
needed.
Um and I noticed that pattern inmyself.
Like I would go into differentsituations or events, and before
like even engaging with anyone,my thought was okay, what can I
do?
Uh I have to be doing somethingto show that I like am wanted
here.
And it's not to judge anyone orsay that we're wrong or bad for
(10:38):
that.
I know that it's programming,it's how we were trained, uh,
some of us as individuals, to bethat way, or maybe something
happened, and we adopted thatbelief that I have to be doing
something in order to bevaluable to someone, and that
doing can go too far.
And I've done it in manydifferent types of ways,
financially, mentally,emotionally, even professionally
(11:02):
at work, it has happened uh aswell.
Um, so that's why it's importantbecause there are a lot of
people out there who aresilently giving, but the
resentment is brewing inside,and it's to the very people that
they really love and adore andcherish.
(11:23):
And that's not fair to eitherparty because we're not being
authentic with our kindness.
We're actually being fake.
So that's really what the bottomline of detrimental kindness is,
is it's not authentic.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
We get used to saying like yes all the time and
doing things, and even though webecome resentful of people,
trying to shift that is reallyhard, and we feel guilty, even
for saying no to someone.
So, what are some of the signsthat kindness has crossed over
into self-abandonment?
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Yeah, uh, one of those I would say is resentment.
Uh, I am also an addictionrecovery, and one thing they
taught us in that world is thatresentment is the number one
offender.
I had no idea back then when Ifirst learned it that it would
actually come around again andapply to this topic.
So I'd say that resentment isthe number one sign if you feel
(12:16):
um, you know, that someone elseis doing something wrong or or
bad just by them asking you, orafter the fact, you're like, why
did I say that?
And they're really just takingadvantage of me.
I would say that that is goingto be one of the number one
signs that the kindness has goneuh too far.
It can show up physically uh aswell.
Anything from a headache to um,you know, you looking at your
(12:42):
bank account, not having as muchas you had hoped because you had
spent it somewhere where youknew that you were overgiving.
Uh, it can also show up uh in, Iwould say, more of a quiet way.
Uh, and that's where you startto cancel out your hopes and
your dreams.
You do not take on the career,or not you, but in general, we
(13:04):
don't take on maybe the careerthat we were hoping to go to
because we were maybe trying toplease someone else, or we
thought that we would be judgedor shame uh for doing that.
So I would say that's the numbertwo sign is canceling out what
you actually want and what'simportant for us.
Um, that is the number two sign.
And then the number three signthat I would say when it comes
(13:26):
to detrimental kindness iskeeping the peace, avoiding
conflict.
I would say that that's could bea bigger sign also uh of knowing
that the kindness is going toofar because you uh know what
your limits are, right?
But we don't voice them, uh, wedon't share what those are with
other people.
Uh we allow them to cross themand then we say that, you know,
(13:50):
we're a victim, but as difficultas this was for me to learn, I
had actually trained otherpeople on how to take advantage
of me.
And even uh Angela, it's crazy.
They even some of them even toldme, like, hey, I'm just gonna
take advantage of you, likeliterally would say that.
And that's how I knew that wow,this is somehow interesting when
(14:11):
someone actually is socomfortable with taking
advantage of you that theybasically tell you that they're
going to do it and maybe justifyit, like, hey, remember how you
said that you're okay with XYZ?
And you're thinking, actually,no, I'm not.
So that's a sign that it's gonetoo far.
Is there's that one thing on theoutside, but the inner
(14:33):
experience is somethingcompletely different.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
I definitely rem remember being resentful of
people.
And they kept asking me, and Ikept saying yes.
And it was hard for me torecognize that I was allowing
this to happen.
And no nobody can walk all overme unless I let them.
So it was hard for me to torecognize the role that I was
(14:57):
playing in in all of this.
And um so it's tough to startsaying no uh to these people and
you feel horrible and you don'tknow where you stand anymore
because you're that person whodoes everything for people.
So what happens when you startsaying no and you're not that
person anymore?
So how do you how do you dealwith that that guilt and that
(15:20):
shift?
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
Yeah, that guilt, yeah, that that is a shift.
And I notice it with myself andalso with people that I've
worked with that the moment yousay or start saying no, uh, or
even giving yourself time, evenbefore you say no, see, one of
my tools is to give myself alittle bit of time when someone
asks me for something, uh, I'llsay, hey, uh, let me think on
(15:42):
that and then I'll get back toyou.
And at first, like literally myhands were shaking, like, okay,
this is not gonna go too well.
Uh, but getting that gap or evensaying no, it is to, I would
say, a natural response becausewe're breaking the pattern.
Uh, what I learned uh in inschool, I studied psychology, is
(16:03):
there are pathways in the brainthat have been built over time
from this habit, the habitual uhsaying yes.
So once we break it, to thebrain is like, uh, what's going
on here?
How come we're saying no all ofa sudden?
It doesn't think that or knowthat, but the the the response
to the internal nervous system.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And it can be really scary.
It can be scary to say no.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
So I would say number one, to have patience uh
with ourselves.
It's not going to be anovernight matter.
Those uh what is the phrase?
Neuroplasticity, there it is.
It takes time to form those newpathways.
The brain needs more repetitionuh in order to get used to the
(16:51):
no.
Uh so breath work can help.
It's one of my bigger go-to's,and I like box breathing because
you can kind of do it, and noone else actually really even
notices that you're doing it.
Even while I'm working out,sometimes I'll do it.
So it kind of brings me back tobe in my body instead of running
from the panic, I'm actuallyjust sitting with it.
(17:11):
Um, and then another thing toget used to the no is we have to
start changing our beliefs uhabout what no means.
I think for a lot of people, theno means that you're a bad
(18:26):
person, you are an evil person.
SPEAKER_00 (18:28):
Sometimes I feel like I'm punishing the other
person by saying no.
It's it's interesting that yousay that you um you don't say
yes right away.
You give yourself a little bitof time and and just taking that
like three seconds even just tocheck in with yourself.
Are you feeling excited aboutthis opportunity?
Are you dreading it a little bitand and paying attention to
those cues that your body isgiving you so that you you can
(18:52):
respond with how you actuallyfeel.
And sometimes that just meanstelling someone, thank you for
thinking of me, give me uh giveme some time to think about
that, or letting a phone call goto voicemail, not answering
those text messages right away.
And just to kind of create somespace between when you have to
say yes or no to really check inwith yourself and see if this is
(19:13):
something you want to do.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Yeah, 100%.
Because when that yes or thatanswer, whatever it is, comes
too soon for some people, theyimmediately regret it.
Uh, and that is no way tolisten, really, because it's
just it's not fair to ourselves.
It's I know we we you know arethinking about ourselves, but
(19:37):
it's not fair to the otherperson either, because when
you're in a relationship withsomeone, and I'm just not
talking about like dating orbeing married, I'm talking about
like your boss, your mom, yourdad, your siblings, your cousin,
whoever it is, they really needto know where you are with
things, what your your thinkingis.
And no, we don't have to revealevery intimate detail to them,
(19:59):
but we also cannot be giving outfalse impressions uh because
this can lead it to a lot ofother things that may not be
good for us uh down the road.
Um, so one other thing that Itell clients uh about saying no
is to change the beliefs, startto challenge their beliefs,
(20:20):
question like, am I really acruel person?
Am I really being mean or orhateful to someone else by
saying no?
I argue against that.
I say that you're actually beingkind and not that we need to
just start saying no to everysingle thing.
Obviously, yes, we can helppeople and say yes.
Um, but the thing is, is when weum how can I best put this here?
(20:44):
It's almost like I I like to goback to the idea of like
children and the idea ofsharing.
Um they're taught, right?
A lot of times they're taughtyou have to share with others,
right?
But if we think about it, whenthey're taught to share, no
one's actually teaching themwhat's left behind for them.
(21:08):
You can even take the example oflike cookies.
If you have five cookies and yougive away all five, there are no
cookies left over for yourself.
So the reason we have to pauseand think about it is because we
really do have to uh create aboundary, which does not mean
that we're shutting other peopleout.
We're actually protecting what'son the inside there.
(21:29):
Uh we're protecting our dignity,our worth, our value.
SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
So you're talking about practicing kindness in a
way that includes you, right?
So you need to make sure thatthere's still one cookie left at
a minimum for you at the end.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Yeah.
Or if there are no cookies left,that you're actually okay with
that.
Because I do realize that beingin a relationship or being in
whatever it is kind ofsituation, sometimes, yeah,
there might not be anythingleft.
But I think the problem comes alot of times when we keep doing
this over and over and over, andwe're also not okay with it.
(22:04):
So when we automatically sayyes, we don't even have time to
think if I'm actually likeleaving something for me or if
I'm seriously okay with uhwhat's left or what's not left
for me.
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
How do you address feeling selfish for when you try
to back out of these peoplepleasing tendencies and starting
to say no?
Growing up, I was it was kind oftaught and ingrained in me that
I, you know, would be selflessand I would give myself to like
help other people and and bethere for other people.
So sometimes it feels reallyselfish if I'm not saying yes to
(22:40):
them.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is actually what I wantedto say earlier.
I lost my train of thought.
But yes, it takes uh reframingthese beliefs that we have and
challenging these beliefs,questioning ourselves, like, am
I actually really being selfishuh by doing this action?
And a lot of times the answer isprobably no.
(23:01):
And there's ways to know ifyou're being selfish or not.
Um so it really comes down to,as I was saying earlier, what
we're actually okay with.
Um if we're okay with beingleft, um, you know, kind of in
the red, we say, then that isactually okay.
If we know how to recuperate, ifwe know how to move on or
transition from that, thenthat's totally fine.
(23:24):
Uh, but it really takeschallenging these beliefs.
Um, there is a practice that Ilike to do.
Uh, it is called the yes check.
Um, and that is when someoneasks you for something, um, you
ask yourself, am I actuallydoing this because I really want
to, or am I doing this becauseI'm actually afraid of what's
(23:47):
going to happen, or if I say no.
Uh, so a lot of us have no andselfish tied together.
And that is just a belief thatthat gets to be broken.
And it comes with practice, weget more confident, the more we
answer authentically or makeagreements more authentically,
the less power that guilt andthat feeling of being selfish is
(24:11):
going to have over us.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
For sure.
What is one myth about peoplepleasing or boundaries that you
would love to bust?
SPEAKER_01 (24:19):
Oh, there are a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Okay, let's let's list them.
SPEAKER_01 (24:24):
I'd love to hear these.
One of them you just mentionedthat I'm selfish if I say no.
Uh, other people also I'venoticed uh think that, you know,
if you um if you set boundarieswith other people, um then
you're being like uh selfish,like you said, or that you're
(24:46):
being uh a bad person by havingboundaries.
Because I have literally seen, Isaw something online the other
day where someone said uh insome sort of relationship or
situation, well, there should beno boundaries between this
person and the other person.
Uh and I beg to differ there.
Uh it does to me, it doesn'tmatter what situation it is,
whether it's work uh or evenlike in a marriage or a
(25:09):
relationship, there still haveto be boundaries because
sometimes it's not that we'rewith unhealthy individuals, but
there might be somethingunhealthy, like an unhealthy
element about the situation.
And if that person does not knowhow to like manage their anger
or manage whatever it is, theirsadness, then we have to know
our own limits of how we'rewilling to interact with those
(25:32):
other people.
Because if you just take oneverybody's problems, there's
going to be burnout.
So that is, I think, one of thebigger myths that we have to
bust is that there should belike no limits, no boundaries.
Uh and so I think the myth thereis that by having a boundary,
I'm like creating this big wallwith other people.
(25:52):
I'm shutting them out.
When actually I'm not, I'mactually welcoming them in, but
I'm welcoming them in with somestructure.
Yeah, it's like I like to saythat it's love with structure.
So that would be the myth, Iguess, is that no boundaries.
But I would say the reality isyou're actually creating uh more
room and more space in therelationship because everybody,
(26:15):
everything is all out on thetable about what you're willing
to do and what you're notwilling to do.
And that to me is freedom.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
Yeah, it's it's tough when you start setting
boundaries.
It uh it's it's it's tough, andit does require that mindset
shift to to be able to do it andand realize that you're not
being mean to the other person,you're not shutting them out,
you're really just protectingyour space and and your peace.
SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, because if we look aroundat different things in society,
uh one thing that's coming tomind is uh like responsibility
and accountability.
And I think that settingboundaries is directly in line
with being accountable and beingresponsible, because if we allow
(27:04):
people to do things that areviolating us or maybe even
themselves, then we are actuallytaking part.
I laugh out loud because Irecognize the truth in it.
We're actually taking in part insomething, here's that word
again, detrimental.
Uh and for me, it just you know,when you're in it, you're in it,
(27:25):
right?
But now that I'm uh I guess I'llsay on the other side or have
found a solution to it, uh, nowI'm paying attention, like I
cannot participate in certainthings because of my morals,
because of my values.
Um so it's really about having agut check with yourself too.
About it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
Yeah.
My gut talks loud and clear.
Every time something feels off,my gut lets me know right away.
And for years I ignored it, butnow I'm I'm getting better at
paying attention to it.
Yeah.
So you've created the releaseframework.
Can you walk us through whatthat is?
SPEAKER_01 (28:00):
Absolutely, yeah.
Um, and to put it like in anutshell to make it short, it is
the way, as we've kind of beentalking about, um, to go from
being that overgiver from beingin detrimental kindness to
getting to the point where youare actually being filled up by
your kindness, by your giving.
The giving is coming from aplace of overflow.
(28:22):
Uh, so it's pretty simple.
Uh, it is number one torecognize the patterns.
Uh, and that's what we the bookbreaks down is how to recognize
these patterns.
Uh, I'll give you a quick uhlittle snapshot of the three
faces of detrimental kindness,and they're mentioned in the
book.
One of the faces of detrimentalkindness, the pattern is the
(28:43):
accommodator.
Uh, the accommodator likes tomake sure that everybody is okay
and that everybody is good allthe time.
They may not even worry aboutthemselves uh before they make
sure that everybody else isaccommodated and taken care of.
They're a little bit more focal,I would say, than the other
patterns that we've seen uh withdetrimental kindness because
(29:03):
they will let you know that theywant to make sure that you're
okay.
Um other one is the rescuer.
They will take on your problemswithout even second guessing it.
If you are short on money,they're coming to the rescue.
If you are short on time, youdidn't plan out your time,
they're gonna come and see howthey can help you, or even make
(29:24):
excuses for you as well.
So they come to the rescue.
It is hard for a rescuer to justsimply sit and watch other
people experience theconsequences of their actions.
Um, it can show up in differentways.
At work, we have bosses.
Um I had a boss, this was yearsago, who actually called out to
(29:46):
work for me because I had donesomething that wouldn't allow me
to come to work.
Um, so my boss had actuallycalled the rest of the team and
told them that I wasn't coming.
So I I think about that now, howthat was detrimental kindness as
well, because he the boss didnot allow me to experience
whatever consequence was comingfor calling out to work when I
knew that it really wasn't alegitimate reason to have called
(30:06):
out.
So there's the rescuer.
The last one I think getsoverlooked a lot, uh, and that
is the peacekeeper.
They are usually very, very,very quiet.
They do not say a lot uh when itcomes to like conflict.
They'll just be like, oh yeah,whatever.
Uh even like going out to eat.
They don't want any conflictabout even where we're going to
(30:27):
eat, whether it's Mexican orJapanese.
Oh, whatever you say is whatthey'll do, just so that there's
no argument about it.
So it's so quiet that youwouldn't even notice.
It's kind of in a way, passiveis the closest word I can come
to to think of it, but there'sdefinitely is um like a default
to allowing someone else to makethe decision for you.
(30:48):
And it's not necessarily a badthing.
Sometimes we're tired and fromwork or whatever, and we don't
want to think, and it feels goodto let someone else say, hey,
you know what?
Let's go out to Japanesetonight, uh, and maybe we'll
pick a different place the nexttime.
Uh so those are the three facesof detrimental kindness, it's
recognizing that pattern.
Um, usually most people fit intoone or all, I've seen that, uh,
(31:11):
of those three faces.
All right, so the next phase umis to release the guilt.
We've talked about that a littlebit, but there's a process that
we go through of reframing thebeliefs that we have about, oh,
what did I just do?
Why did I just say no when I'mso used to saying yes?
So it's about releasing theguilt.
(31:31):
And then number three, it'sabout reclaiming our voice.
Uh, and that just simply meansthat we are now able to speak up
uh and also use our voice.
I always say um that you canspeak up, but still not use your
voice.
So sometimes we get loud orraise our voice, but we're still
actually not sharing.
(31:53):
The truth of our experience.
I have been there many, manytimes where I'm just shouting,
which I don't do anymore.
I, oh goodness, I've come a longway.
I don't believe in raisingvoices or anything like that
anymore.
I think that we should be civiland let's have a conversation.
But I have been there where Ihave kind of raised my voice or
tried to get someone else to seemy voice by using these
(32:15):
different strategies ortechniques.
So there's sometimes silence.
I want people to understand thatsometimes being silent and not
being the one to like argue withsomeone else that may actually
speak a little bit louder thanyou're yelling and your shouting
and these long text messages,you know, to other people to try
and make them or emails to getthem to understand.
(32:36):
Sometimes it's just a quietstillness, and that stillness
will uh allow space um forpeople to recognize that you're
not coming from uh a place ofwanting to fight, you're not
wanting to defend yourself,you're just simply allowing time
so that you can really workthrough the situation.
Um, so that's what yeah, Reclaimthe Voice is all about.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
So you talked about shouting and and and yelling,
but not actually communicatinganything.
Can you talk about that a littlebit more?
SPEAKER_01 (33:08):
Yes, 100%.
Um, it's one thing to like makea commentary about something,
but there is another thing aboutcommunication.
That's what it's really, really,really all about here.
And when we raise our voice,naturally the other person may
be on the defense a little bitor they may run.
(33:31):
Some people are are not going toengage in the yelling uh and the
screaming, they are going toexit the situation, they are
going to avoid it.
I I think it was uh what's hisname?
John Bowby, I think was hisname, who came up with the four
attachment styles.
So basically, what someone haslearned is during conflict or
whatever situation it is, toeither run towards the situation
(33:55):
or maybe run from the situationor stay in the situation, but be
able to articulate what yourlimits uh and values are in the
situation.
So the difference, for example,I could uh maybe uh let's say
you know there's a situation ina marriage where a lot of times
it's the husband leaving likeclothes out on the floor.
(34:17):
I've been guilty of that before.
That's why I can say thatexample because I just come in
and like, okay, I gotta change,I gotta run to go play games or
whatever, yeah, whatever it is.
Um, and so if I'm getting yelledat, right, I'm automatically on
the defense.
My nervous system, the way I'vebeen trained, is to I'm gonna,
you know, kind of buck up here,like, hey, hold on, you're
(34:39):
you're this is my space too,right?
So we're we get in defensivemode.
Rather than, hey, you know what?
It's just a little bituncomfortable for me when there
are things around the place.
Uh, is there a way that we canwork on maybe having things
organized or maybe just nothaving them like here where you
know it's the common area?
(34:59):
So there is a difference, right?
We're actually communicatingwhat our experience is, and
people actually listen to usmore and respect us more when we
actually say, like, hey, this ismy experience, because what no
one can ever do really, they cantry to, but they cannot
invalidate your experience.
We know what's going on withinourselves, other people don't.
(35:23):
They may try to guess, and wemay say that someone's our
soulmate and our life partner,but even they don't always know
what's going on with us.
And when we make theseassumptions, and then when we
try to say, well, how come youdidn't know XYZ?
How could you not know that?
It hadn't been shared, but ithadn't been communicated with
them.
And again, it's not fair to themeither if we don't share that
(35:45):
with them, because they're leftin a place of not just not
knowing.
And so they may try somethinglike a strategy or whatever or a
solution that's actually notfitting for the situation.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
Yeah.
We uh we moved about a year ago,and so we had all these boxes
piled up.
And for me, I was like, oh, Idon't really want to deal with
this just now.
I've got all these things on thego.
I'm just gonna leave these boxeshere.
And it wasn't until my partnersaid, this is stressful for me
to see all these boxes, and it'scausing me to feel not very
(36:18):
good.
And and at that point I thought,okay, now we need to deal with
these boxes because I I don'twant anybody feeling bad.
But we we're all different.
And it wasn't until it wasexplained to me how it made the
other person feel that I trulyunderstood that, you know,
although I might be able toleave the mess behind, I I can
(36:40):
help in in making life betterfor someone else.
SPEAKER_01 (36:43):
Yeah, that's what it's all about.
And and sometimes it's aboutmaking it better for ourselves
too.
I've realized um sometimes I didnot know that, oh wow, that
actually does feel pretty good.
Yeah.
That experience, you may realizethat, oh yeah, actually you're
right uh uh about whatever thesituation may be.
(37:04):
So that's why I'd say it'simportant, but it also just
makes the relationship evenmore, I'd say, connected.
Uh, because you're not justthere, you're actually being
there with the other person.
Like they are in your world,you're in theirs, and everyone
can really, really not just getalong, but co-create things
(37:26):
together, co-create a home thatfeels good for everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Um my partner makes the bed allthe time, and and I've never
been a bed maker.
And uh, so you know,begrudgingly now I'm like, oh, I
gotta make the bed every day.
And um I wasn't happy about it.
But now I'm like, you know what,it actually kind of makes me
feel good, right?
You walk into the room,everything looks lovely and
presentable, and it makes mefeel good.
(37:52):
And I didn't, I don't think Iknew that I would feel that way.
Um, but in the beginning, and itwas it was tough for me to get
into that habit.
And um, yeah, just the other dayI was like, don't don't hold
this against me, and you know,but I actually like the bed made
and I've changed my mind.
But um yeah.
That's interesting.
(38:13):
So let's get back to um likeguilt and overgiving.
Um, those things often show uphand in hand.
So how do you coach people tomove through guilt without
getting stuck in shame ordefensiveness?
SPEAKER_01 (38:25):
Yeah, well, the first thing uh to do when it
comes to the guilt, right, isrecognize when it's coming up.
I like doing inventories, right?
Uh one of the biggest thingsthat happened to me happen uh
when we're recognizing mydetrimental kindness.
It happened to me on a Sundaynight at 2 a.m.
I was just exhausted.
(38:46):
Now I normally reflect, Sundaysis are my reflection days.
I think about you know whathappened, what I did good the
last week, maybe what didn't goin so well, and how I can maybe
even do better or improve orwhat I need to take care of for
the coming week ahead.
And in that reflection, in thatinventory, I realized those
moments where I actually did notsave enough time for taking care
(39:08):
of projects that I wanted totake care of because every time
we say yes, we're gonna say noto something for ourselves in
some sort of way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's almost like no way toreally avoid that, but paying
attention to the pattern of itis the first thing that we do.
So we we do an inventory, right?
(39:29):
For the coaching, uh, to seewhere we're actually having that
guilt come up, where is theovergiving showing up?
Sometimes we can actually lookand see what was happening right
before that event as well,because sometimes we're caught
off guard, especially like 2a.m.
You're tired, you just are notthinking too well when you're
tired.
So it's natural, right?
(39:50):
Some people that's when they getreally, really caught in the
detriment of kindness, you'rejust exhausted, and to just the
easiest thing to do is say yes,leave me alone, go away.
And then later you're like, nowwhy did I do that?
So it's it's important to justrecognize that pattern first.
And it's just about creatingawareness.
I tell clients, you're notwrong, you're not bad.
(40:11):
We're not placing any type ofjudgment at all for any decision
that you make, whether it is yesor no.
This is your life, right?
But we're making sure that thelife that you say you want to
have is the life that you'reactually having.
So if it's not, then what weneed to do is start looking at
these patterns and start makinga new choice about those
(40:32):
patterns.
It really, really comes down toour identity.
And I would say that it's notthat we need to change who we
are, we need to change what webelieve about who we are, is
what the real comes from.
You see clients to start, orI've seen clients like peel back
the layers.
Uh they some of them lookphysically different once they
(40:54):
start making these changes.
It's it's just incredible.
That's why I saytransformational coaching
because it's the sameindividual, but they've peeled
back some of the layers, thesemasks and these faces of
detrimental kindness thatthey're wearing.
And then like this glow comesback.
Even and uh to brag about me alittle bit.
I I'll show you uh maybe laterin one of my before and after
(41:15):
pictures.
Um it's just a night and daydifference of how I looked with
detrimental.
Uh you probably saw thatcommercial growing up.
Like, this is your brain.
SPEAKER_00 (41:25):
Yeah, I think I saw it.
It's on Instagram, right?
Your before and after.
SPEAKER_01 (41:29):
Yeah, I'm gonna make that a caption like this is your
this is me.
I should not say other people.
This is me on detrimentalkindness, and then that's like
the after shot.
Well, so you see the layersstart to peel back, and and
that's where you really see thattransformation is when people
start to bring out the kindness,the authentic kindness that has
(41:50):
been hidden.
I always tell clients, it is ournature to be kindness, but just
like we have things like um uhthe Ten Commandments or whatever
they are, it shows up indifferent even more places have
like a list of like code ofconduct or whatever.
To me, it's just natural to havethose things because the natural
tendency uh is there, right?
(42:12):
But it's giving us a guidelineon what to do with that natural
tendency.
So when it comes to kindness,right, these boundaries are
telling us what to do with thattendency.
It's not actually telling us whonot to be, it's telling us who
to be.
SPEAKER_00 (42:27):
Is your framework able to help with perfectionism?
SPEAKER_01 (42:31):
100%, because perfectionism, if you ask me, is
really about control.
Uh, but I have one of my uhfamous lines, I probably say it
a little bit too much, is thatyour need to be perfect and your
need to be in control isactually controlling you rather
than you being in control.
(42:52):
And that was said to me actuallyfirst, so that's where I get
that from.
So, yes, uh, because it's thatdetrimental kindness is not
necessarily about how you'regonna look to other people, it
is about how you look toyourself as well, right?
How we view ourselves.
So sometimes that detrimentalkindness has nothing to do with
like our mom or dad, sisters,brothers, or boss.
(43:14):
It has to do with me, even ifyou look at, like I said, those
before and after photos, it wasme not saying no to myself when
I know that I've eaten like thefifth pint of ice cream after I
said that I wasn't, I keepcaving in, right?
Even after I tell myself, thisis it, yada yada.
And that's just one of myclassic examples.
There are many differentexamples of perfectionism where
(43:36):
it's actually the same thing.
It is that at the end of theday, instead of authentically
being present, right, withourselves or with other people,
we are trying to perform andcreate like this narrative or
this image or this appearancethat things have to be a certain
way in order for them to beacceptable.
(43:56):
We are perfect just as we are.
There is really no need to thereis to me, if you ask me, uh it's
kind of two different things.
There's really no such thing asperfect, uh, but then there is
perfect imperfection.
If that makes sense to ouraudience, right?
So it's beautiful just as it is.
(44:17):
We all have maybe things that weare are great at and things that
we are not so great at, butthat's actually makes us like
who we are, and it's perfectlyokay.
SPEAKER_00 (44:27):
So with perfectionism, you're saying
that it's it's about control.
So can you explain how that howthat works?
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
Yeah, 100%.
When it comes to being incontrol, uh a lot of us uh from
conditioning, like from ourchildhood, like if you ever had
someone else come into yourspace, no one else was allowed
to enter that space unless thehome or the person appeared a
certain way.
(44:55):
Other people were not allowed tocome in and just experience you
as you are in your fullness andyour wholeness and your good,
your bad, and your ugly.
Okay, you need to, I'm justmaking silly examples, tuck your
shirt in or brush your teeth,whatever.
And yes, we need to bepresentable, obviously, but it
goes too far, right, when theonly thing that matters is what
(45:17):
other people think about us,right, or about what other
people think.
We're trying to control that,right?
We're worried, oh, they're gonnathink that we're a messy family,
or they're they're going tothink that I'm, you know, uh uh
an alcoholic, or they're goingto think that I'm a food addict.
And that is actually the orderof the day, instead of just
(45:39):
authentically connecting withother people.
So that's where theperfectionism comes.
Uh, is you're trying to controlhow other people perceive you,
and that's actuallymanipulation.
I really hope the officer gotthat.
That it is actuallymanipulation.
You're trying to really focusand control how someone else
perceives you.
It's their mind, it is theirperception.
(46:01):
You can preach to them all daylong about how valuable you are
and how wonderful you are, andhow for me it used I'm a really
good catch.
SPEAKER_00 (46:12):
Yeah.
But they're gonna make up theirown minds.
SPEAKER_01 (46:15):
They're gonna make up their own mind anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (46:18):
For sure, for sure.
So you shared that you'vepersonally struggled with
overgiving.
I heard addiction in there atsome point and self-sabotage.
So, what was your turning pointand what's one thing that you
wish you had known earlier inyour healing journey, if if you
feel comfortable talking aboutthat?
SPEAKER_01 (46:37):
Absolutely.
And I talked about it in thebook, actually, is I uh had been
asked by a really good friend ofmine to help move their
apartment.
Um, before the friend couldfinish asking, I said yes.
There was that automatic yes,sure, yes, no problem.
Uh, absolutely, I can.
I canceled my plans for theweekend.
You know, this was supposed tohappen over weekend, so I
(46:59):
canceled all my plans.
I had a couple of reservationsthat cost money, and so I
canceled the reservations,knowing that I was not getting
the money back for thereservations because there's
that control again.
I wanted to, I didn't maybedidn't know it at the time, but
looking back, what it was is Iwanted to be that good friend,
that friend that did not say no,like, oh well, maybe no one else
(47:20):
is going to help them, so I haveto be the one to help.
Um, so I carried boxes, I drovea U-Haul truck.
Uh, we went up and down flightsof stairs.
I was exhausted by the time wefinished moving.
But the thing is, is I smiledand I say grand the whole time,
but I was burning up inside atmyself, really like, why did I
(47:42):
do this?
Why did I say yes?
And go ahead and cancel all myplans and lose money just to
appear to be a good friend.
So when I got home that weekend,I realized that I hadn't done
anything, gotten done not onesingle thing that I had wanted
to do, absolutely nothing.
And here I am, resentful.
And I said, okay, this isactually it.
(48:02):
This has gone way too far towhere I am now being that good
person, uh, and but leavingmyself out and and abandoning
myself.
So that was really because I hadto work that next morning at 7
a.m.
Not like be ready at get to workby 7.
Be at the desk and ready.
So now it's two o'clock, like,okay, now I'm not gonna get good
(48:24):
rest.
So I have yet again, because acouple things that happened
before, it's like, okay, yetagain, I've done this thing
here.
Uh, so I have to put an end toit.
Um, so that is what was like theturning, uh, that was the
turning point for me, uh,really, even beyond the
addiction, because like theaddiction to the substances and
the processes, like I had kindof overcame that, but I didn't
(48:48):
look deeper actually at thisparticular thing, my need to
make others happy, or my ownneed to kind of put myself as
this person or this guy uh whowas always nice and who never
disappointed uh other people.
So that was a tipping point forme.
I just knew after that, like,okay, this is just it's too in
(49:08):
my face.
unknown (49:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:10):
Yeah, to not deal with it.
SPEAKER_00 (49:12):
And at that point, you knew you needed to make a
change.
SPEAKER_01 (49:15):
Oh, 100%.
Because this was a really dearfriend of mine, and we're still
dear friends, just for therecord.
Uh, I knew after that, though,like, okay, people that I love,
there there's has to be a comthere's a common denominator
here when I'm like angry andresentful at people who I care
about the most.
There's something not rightabout this equation here.
(49:40):
If I'm like getting not, but notexpressing it either, uh, or not
like saying, like, hey, yeah, Ican help you out for a couple
hours, uh, but I gotta run bytwo o'clock.
Well, I could have just simplydone that, but I was so far into
the detrimental kindness thatthat wouldn't have worked at
that time.
That's like setting a boundary,and it's still like, oh yeah,
you're still being selfishbecause you didn't give your
(50:01):
all.
Um, so yeah, that's that's how Iknew and and this isn't your
friend's fault, right?
SPEAKER_00 (50:08):
Like you're you're resentful, you're super angry at
the situation all day, but it'sit's not it's not your friend's
fault.
And um he probably doesn't evenknow that all this is going on
in your mind at the time.
SPEAKER_01 (50:20):
Right.
Yeah.
It was all smiles.
Oh, hey man, this is awesome.
Um people ask, hey, are you iseverything okay?
Oh, yes, absolutely, which is uha form of lying.
unknown (50:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:35):
That also, and I just got tired of that.
Like it is, I was thinking aboutthis, uh I think it was either
last night or the night before,about how exhausting detrimental
kindness and people pleasing canbe, because it takes a lot of
energy, it takes a lot of effortand resources as well to hide
your true feelings.
It can really, really drain youto the point where you don't
(50:57):
even know.
You look in the mirror and likeI looked in the mirror and I was
like, who is this guy?
I'm actually becoming themonster now.
Uh, because it's not otherpeople that are the monsters
really taking advantage, it's mebeing the monster by acting like
I'm just so you know happy andjoyful, but really um ready
inside, angry.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:18):
So for someone who's listening right now who feels
trapped in people pleasing andcan't imagine any other way of
living, what would you say isthe first step to encourage
them?
SPEAKER_01 (51:28):
Well, I will say uh my book is an awesome place to
start detrimental kindness, justreading through that book.
Not only my story, because Ilove relating with people, but
it's literally like I say like aplaybook or a framework uh for
overcoming detrimental kindnessand people pleasing.
Um, and to give themselves uh wesay grace, I guess there's many
(51:50):
different words for it, is tonumber one let go of the belief
that it's their fault.
We just in society, we are justtaught in so many different ways
by good people to put ourselveslast and to make all these
sacrifices.
Uh and it's just programming,but to realize that we can
unprogram, we can unlearn thesethings.
(52:10):
I would say that is the firstplace to start, right?
Because a lot of us come in.
I came in, right, to this thing,beating myself up, like, oh, I'm
such a I'm not gonna say anynames, but you can imagine what
names I would have said tomyself uh about my people
pleasing.
So it's about letting go of thatand actually realizing that a
lot of times there is probably alittle boy or a little girl
(52:35):
inside that was trained to bethat way, but we can untrain as
well just as easily as wetrained.
SPEAKER_00 (52:42):
Yeah, I love that reminder of not beating
ourselves up for some of ourthings that we've said um or or
done or being stuck in peoplepleasing.
It's easy to beat ourselves upfor that.
SPEAKER_01 (52:55):
Yeah, it is.
I I tell clients all the time.
Um, not that there's a literalbaseball bat, but I ask them,
like, are you picking thebaseball bat up again and
beating yourself up with itagain?
And they're like, Yeah.
I was like, all right, well, yougot a choice.
You can keep batting, or you canjust put the baseball bat down.
(53:17):
Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:19):
And and figure out how to move past this.
Exactly.
Jason, where can people findyou?
SPEAKER_01 (53:25):
Yeah, so uh the best place to find me is on
Instagram.
Uh my uh handle, which will I'msure we'll share in the notes
there, but it's Coach JasonJohnson.
There right now, no other coachJason Johnson's on Instagram.
I am the only one, so my my faceshould appear there.
Uh but that's where I connectpeople.
There's links to like a freetraining that I give about
(53:46):
detrimental kindness.
There is the link also there tobuy the book.
My uh, I guess mission is topost as much uh things as I can
as well.
So there are lots of differenteducational posts.
I attend some of them wherepeople can read or watch like
the reel or the video and learna little bit more about
detrimental kindness or aboutwhat I do.
(54:07):
Uh, there's some testimonialssprinkled out there uh online on
my page as well, so you canmaybe read through those just
staying, uh, or barring otherpeople's beliefs uh about
overcoming detrimental kindness.
So that's where they can find meon Instagram, uh, and there's
tons of like resources therethat people can grab um to to
(54:28):
yeah to make the needle movewith overcoming detrimental
kindness.
SPEAKER_00 (54:33):
Show notes.
SPEAKER_01 (54:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:34):
Jason, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and
your story with us today.
And I know a lot of my listenersare gonna walk away with lots of
practical tools and with a lotof hope that change is possible.
So I'm grateful that you tookthe time to be here.
It was great to see you.
Yeah.
And thanks for spending timewith us today.
If this episode resonated withyou, feel free to share it with
(54:56):
a friend or anyone who could usea little encouragement.
The more these conversationsspread, the more people that we
can reach together.
And if you'd like to stayconnected, make sure that you
follow me.
I'm most active on Facebook atthe Codependent Doctor and on
Instagram at DRAngela Downey.
I'd love to hear your thoughts,so don't be shy about leaving a
comment or reaching out.
I wish you all a great week asyou learn to foster a better
(55:17):
relationship with the mostimportant person in your life.
Yourself.
I'm gonna see you here again inanother two weeks with another
episode of the CodependentDoctor.
Take care for now.
You've got this.
Thanks for spending time with metoday.
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If it did, hit follow,subscribe, or share it with
someone who needs to hear ittoday.
(55:37):
The codependent doctor is notmedical advice and doesn't
replace speaking to yourhealthcare provider.
If you're in a crisis, please goto the nearest ER or call 911 or
reach out to your local mentalhealth helpline.
I'll be back here next week withmore support, stories, and
strategies because we're healingtogether.
Today's episode is all about breaking free from
that exhausting cycle of beingtoo nice.
You know when that kindnessturns into self-abandonment,
overgiving, and guilt.
My guest, Jason Johnson, is hereto share how detrimental
kindness shows up in our livesand what we can do instead.
We're gonna dive into hisrelease framework, which is a
simple, practical way to let goof guilt, reclaim your
(01:13):
boundaries, and start livingmore authentically.
And you'll also hear Jason's ownpersonal story of
transformation, which I think isgonna inspire you to believe
that change is possible for youtoo.
Welcome to the CodependentDoctor, a podcast where we
unpack the messy, beautifuljourney of healing from
codependency.
If you're burned out from peoplepleasing, stuck in unhealthy
(01:33):
patterns, or just tired ofputting yourself last, you're in
the right place.
I'm Dr.
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, and I'm
here to help you reconnect toyour authentic self, one honest
conversation at a time.
Here we go.
Hello to all my wonderfulpodcast listeners, and welcome
to the Codependent Doctor.
I'm your host, Dr.
(01:54):
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, here to
help us untangle our patterns,heal our hearts, and reclaim our
peace.
For today's episode, we have aguest with us.
Jason Johnson is an emotionalfreedom and transformation
coach, author and creator ofDetrimental Kindness and the
Release Framework.
With over a decade of coachingexperience, Jason helps people
(02:15):
break free from people-pleasing,overgiving, and self-abandonment
so that they can reclaim theirpower and live authentically.
He is also the author ofmultiple coloring books and
combines personal experience,psychological insights, and
coaching to inspire sustainablechange to those that he works
with.
I'm really excited to have Jasonhere today because he brings
such a unique perspective onsomething so many of us are
struggling with (02:38):
people pleasing and giving until we are
completely depleted.
What I love about this approachis that it's not just theory,
it's a created framework that'sreally easy to remember and
actually put into practice ineveryday life.
So, my friends, help me inwelcoming Jason Johnson to the
show.
So, welcome, Jason.
(02:58):
I'm so glad that you're able tojoin us today.
How are you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
I'm doing well.
Thank you so much for asking.
And it's uh it's a pleasure tobe here.
It's a pet pleasure uh to be ina space uh with um individuals
like yourself who uh just have aspace where we can come and have
like an open conversation uhabout different things and
especially about like ourwell-being.
So thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Absolutely.
I'm so glad that you're able tomake it.
And I really appreciate whenpeople are able to come on the
show and share some of theirstories and are willing to be
vulnerable uh with my audience.
They they're able to learn a lotwhen we when we open up a little
bit.
Jason, one of the traditions onmy show is that we discuss what
we're grateful for because whenwe stop and think about what
we're grateful for, it helps ourbrains focus on the things that
(03:45):
are working in our lives insteadof what's missing or what's
broken.
So I'd like to ask you, is thereanything that you're especially
grateful for today?
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Yeah, what what came to mind this morning uh was
present.
I'm grateful for presence.
Uh I noticed that uh my mind attimes uh can get a little jumpy.
It jumps from one idea uh to thenext, um, which I know sometimes
that's gonna happen, right?
Have things to do, to-do list orwhatnot.
(04:14):
Uh but just to just be in themoment, uh, allowing my mind to
maybe jump from something thathappened or jump to something
that may happen uh is okay, butI get to just be present and
watch what's going on.
I don't have to get caught intoit.
Uh I just get to just be.
Um, so that's what I'm gratefulfor, is presence.
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
That's amazing.
I tend to have two modes.
I have scattered brain where Imy mind's all over the place, or
where I become hyper-focused andobsessed about one particular
thing.
Not sure what that's all about,but I do like taking that time
to just sit and focus on beingpresent, but it's not something
that naturally comes to me atall.
(04:57):
But absolutely super importantto be grounded in the present.
For me, I I love nature.
I like, I love wildlife, and I'mso grateful for my neighborhood.
It is just taming with deer.
And this year we've had severalbabies come out.
And this morning I was watchingthem just being super goofy in
the field out across my house.
(05:17):
It's fantastic.
I love these uh goofy littleguys.
They're pr they're funny.
Yeah, nice to watch.
So maybe we can start by havingyou introduce yourself and tell
us about your journey tobecoming a coach and an author.
SPEAKER_01 (05:30):
Sure.
Yeah.
I'm Jason Johnson, and I am theauthor of several coloring
books.
Uh, they are uh transformationalcoloring books, I call them,
because they take you on ajourney of expressing yourself
but through art.
Um, I'm also the author of abook or my book that was just
published back at the end ofJune.
(05:52):
Uh it is called DetrimentalKindness, um, how not to lose
yourself while helping others.
Um, it has been quite theexperience, not only writing the
book, but connecting with peopleabout this uh very, very
important topic.
So, as far as like my coachingexperience, I started off as a
(06:12):
fitness coach, uh, helpingpeople hit their health goals,
whether it was uh losing weightor you know, working on
improving like their uh healthconditions, like maybe high
blood sugar or high bloodpressure, that type of thing.
Um, and then I started to noticelike more patterns beyond just
the physical.
Uh, we are more than just thephysical.
(06:33):
So I noticed that things keptpopping up.
So I uh began to kind of expandand work with individuals who
maybe did not have a physicalgoal uh that they wanted to
accomplish.
Maybe it was something else,like having boundaries uh in
their relationships or justhaving peace of mind.
Uh so that's how I kind of uh Iguess you'd say, I don't know,
(06:53):
maybe morphed uh into becominglike a life coach or I say
transformational coach, reallyhelping individuals take their
life into their own hands uh andand get to a place where they
are just simply okay uh with whothey are and what they're up to.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Yeah, there is a connection between how we eat
and and how we take care ofourselves on a daily basis and
how our mental health is doing.
So sometimes if if things aren'tgoing well in our minds, we are
codependent, we're not able toset boundaries, then we end up
eating to kind of cope with someof those feelings that we just
don't know how to fix.
So it really is allinterrelated.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
Yeah, it definitely is.
And I always tell clients if ifI leave them with no other piece
of advice is that we're notgoing to be perfect at it
either.
I still have moments where Inotice where I'm like stressed
or having to run, and there isstill that tendency or default
to want to grab something or dosome other type of process.
(07:54):
Um, but I'm able to catch itnow, and that's why I said I'm
grateful for presence because itreminds me when that panic mode
kicks in that okay, I just needto take a quick moment.
Sometimes it's like just aminute.
Um, one of my favorite things todo is to practice box breathing,
which is breathing in for fourminutes.
Yep, you hold it for fourseconds, you uh breathe out for
(08:18):
four seconds, and then youactually hold it out for four
seconds as well.
And my mind still is kind of alittle bit jumpy there as well,
but it brings me back to like,okay, I am here uh and I am
present.
Um, so yeah, it's totallyconnected.
We're not going to be perfect atit, uh, but it's about making
progress.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
So your book is called Detrimental Kindness, and
this is kind of a phrase thatyou've coined for yourself.
So can you break that down?
What does that look like ineveryday life and why this is
particularly important forcodependence?
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Yeah, I love that question.
Thanks for asking.
Um, so detrimental kindness, andit sounds like uh, I don't know,
maybe an oxymoron.
Like people kind of raise theireyebrows, like, wait, what?
How can kindness be bad or bedetrimental?
And it came from personalexperience of just naturally
being the type of individualthat likes to give, that loves
(09:11):
helping others.
But I had realized over a periodof time that my kindness became
detrimental, meaning that I wasactually damaging myself in
different ways.
The number one sign that I sawwas that I was that I was
resentful.
And so it didn't mean that Iwasn't giving out of the
kindness of my heart, but inthat giving, I was leaving
(09:32):
myself out, or I was leavingmyself in a position to be
resentful, to be frustrated, orto even hide uh as well.
That is why I say that it'sdetrimental because the other
person is on the receiving end,but the giver uh is actually
being uh left out, or the giveris being uh not necessarily
(09:55):
hurt, but shortchanged uh insome type of way.
Uh so that's where the phrasedetrimental kindness came from.
And it's important, I would say,for codependents, because there
is a tendency with codependentsto feel that their worth or
their value is tied to what youcan do for others or for being
(10:16):
needed.
Um and I noticed that pattern inmyself.
Like I would go into differentsituations or events, and before
like even engaging with anyone,my thought was okay, what can I
do?
Uh I have to be doing somethingto show that I like am wanted
here.
And it's not to judge anyone orsay that we're wrong or bad for
(10:38):
that.
I know that it's programming,it's how we were trained, uh,
some of us as individuals, to bethat way, or maybe something
happened, and we adopted thatbelief that I have to be doing
something in order to bevaluable to someone, and that
doing can go too far.
And I've done it in manydifferent types of ways,
financially, mentally,emotionally, even professionally
(11:02):
at work, it has happened uh aswell.
Um, so that's why it's importantbecause there are a lot of
people out there who aresilently giving, but the
resentment is brewing inside,and it's to the very people that
they really love and adore andcherish.
(11:23):
And that's not fair to eitherparty because we're not being
authentic with our kindness.
We're actually being fake.
So that's really what the bottomline of detrimental kindness is,
is it's not authentic.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
We get used to saying like yes all the time and
doing things, and even though webecome resentful of people,
trying to shift that is reallyhard, and we feel guilty, even
for saying no to someone.
So, what are some of the signsthat kindness has crossed over
into self-abandonment?
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Yeah, uh, one of those I would say is resentment.
Uh, I am also an addictionrecovery, and one thing they
taught us in that world is thatresentment is the number one
offender.
I had no idea back then when Ifirst learned it that it would
actually come around again andapply to this topic.
So I'd say that resentment isthe number one sign if you feel
(12:16):
um, you know, that someone elseis doing something wrong or or
bad just by them asking you, orafter the fact, you're like, why
did I say that?
And they're really just takingadvantage of me.
I would say that that is goingto be one of the number one
signs that the kindness has goneuh too far.
It can show up physically uh aswell.
Anything from a headache to um,you know, you looking at your
(12:42):
bank account, not having as muchas you had hoped because you had
spent it somewhere where youknew that you were overgiving.
Uh, it can also show up uh in, Iwould say, more of a quiet way.
Uh, and that's where you startto cancel out your hopes and
your dreams.
You do not take on the career,or not you, but in general, we
(13:04):
don't take on maybe the careerthat we were hoping to go to
because we were maybe trying toplease someone else, or we
thought that we would be judgedor shame uh for doing that.
So I would say that's the numbertwo sign is canceling out what
you actually want and what'simportant for us.
Um, that is the number two sign.
And then the number three signthat I would say when it comes
(13:26):
to detrimental kindness iskeeping the peace, avoiding
conflict.
I would say that that's could bea bigger sign also uh of knowing
that the kindness is going toofar because you uh know what
your limits are, right?
But we don't voice them, uh, wedon't share what those are with
other people.
Uh we allow them to cross themand then we say that, you know,
(13:50):
we're a victim, but as difficultas this was for me to learn, I
had actually trained otherpeople on how to take advantage
of me.
And even uh Angela, it's crazy.
They even some of them even toldme, like, hey, I'm just gonna
take advantage of you, likeliterally would say that.
And that's how I knew that wow,this is somehow interesting when
(14:11):
someone actually is socomfortable with taking
advantage of you that theybasically tell you that they're
going to do it and maybe justifyit, like, hey, remember how you
said that you're okay with XYZ?
And you're thinking, actually,no, I'm not.
So that's a sign that it's gonetoo far.
Is there's that one thing on theoutside, but the inner
(14:33):
experience is somethingcompletely different.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
I definitely rem remember being resentful of
people.
And they kept asking me, and Ikept saying yes.
And it was hard for me torecognize that I was allowing
this to happen.
And no nobody can walk all overme unless I let them.
So it was hard for me to torecognize the role that I was
(14:57):
playing in in all of this.
And um so it's tough to startsaying no uh to these people and
you feel horrible and you don'tknow where you stand anymore
because you're that person whodoes everything for people.
So what happens when you startsaying no and you're not that
person anymore?
So how do you how do you dealwith that that guilt and that
(15:20):
shift?
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
Yeah, that guilt, yeah, that that is a shift.
And I notice it with myself andalso with people that I've
worked with that the moment yousay or start saying no, uh, or
even giving yourself time, evenbefore you say no, see, one of
my tools is to give myself alittle bit of time when someone
asks me for something, uh, I'llsay, hey, uh, let me think on
(15:42):
that and then I'll get back toyou.
And at first, like literally myhands were shaking, like, okay,
this is not gonna go too well.
Uh, but getting that gap or evensaying no, it is to, I would
say, a natural response becausewe're breaking the pattern.
Uh, what I learned uh in inschool, I studied psychology, is
(16:03):
there are pathways in the brainthat have been built over time
from this habit, the habitual uhsaying yes.
So once we break it, to thebrain is like, uh, what's going
on here?
How come we're saying no all ofa sudden?
It doesn't think that or knowthat, but the the the response
to the internal nervous system.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And it can be really scary.
It can be scary to say no.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
So I would say number one, to have patience uh
with ourselves.
It's not going to be anovernight matter.
Those uh what is the phrase?
Neuroplasticity, there it is.
It takes time to form those newpathways.
The brain needs more repetitionuh in order to get used to the
(16:51):
no.
Uh so breath work can help.
It's one of my bigger go-to's,and I like box breathing because
you can kind of do it, and noone else actually really even
notices that you're doing it.
Even while I'm working out,sometimes I'll do it.
So it kind of brings me back tobe in my body instead of running
from the panic, I'm actuallyjust sitting with it.
(17:11):
Um, and then another thing toget used to the no is we have to
start changing our beliefs uhabout what no means.
I think for a lot of people, theno means that you're a bad
(18:26):
person, you are an evil person.
SPEAKER_00 (18:28):
Sometimes I feel like I'm punishing the other
person by saying no.
It's it's interesting that yousay that you um you don't say
yes right away.
You give yourself a little bitof time and and just taking that
like three seconds even just tocheck in with yourself.
Are you feeling excited aboutthis opportunity?
Are you dreading it a little bitand and paying attention to
those cues that your body isgiving you so that you you can
(18:52):
respond with how you actuallyfeel.
And sometimes that just meanstelling someone, thank you for
thinking of me, give me uh giveme some time to think about
that, or letting a phone call goto voicemail, not answering
those text messages right away.
And just to kind of create somespace between when you have to
say yes or no to really check inwith yourself and see if this is
(19:13):
something you want to do.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Yeah, 100%.
Because when that yes or thatanswer, whatever it is, comes
too soon for some people, theyimmediately regret it.
Uh, and that is no way tolisten, really, because it's
just it's not fair to ourselves.
It's I know we we you know arethinking about ourselves, but
(19:37):
it's not fair to the otherperson either, because when
you're in a relationship withsomeone, and I'm just not
talking about like dating orbeing married, I'm talking about
like your boss, your mom, yourdad, your siblings, your cousin,
whoever it is, they really needto know where you are with
things, what your your thinkingis.
And no, we don't have to revealevery intimate detail to them,
(19:59):
but we also cannot be giving outfalse impressions uh because
this can lead it to a lot ofother things that may not be
good for us uh down the road.
Um, so one other thing that Itell clients uh about saying no
is to change the beliefs, startto challenge their beliefs,
(20:20):
question like, am I really acruel person?
Am I really being mean or orhateful to someone else by
saying no?
I argue against that.
I say that you're actually beingkind and not that we need to
just start saying no to everysingle thing.
Obviously, yes, we can helppeople and say yes.
Um, but the thing is, is when weum how can I best put this here?
(20:44):
It's almost like I I like to goback to the idea of like
children and the idea ofsharing.
Um they're taught, right?
A lot of times they're taughtyou have to share with others,
right?
But if we think about it, whenthey're taught to share, no
one's actually teaching themwhat's left behind for them.
(21:08):
You can even take the example oflike cookies.
If you have five cookies and yougive away all five, there are no
cookies left over for yourself.
So the reason we have to pauseand think about it is because we
really do have to uh create aboundary, which does not mean
that we're shutting other peopleout.
We're actually protecting what'son the inside there.
(21:29):
Uh we're protecting our dignity,our worth, our value.
SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
So you're talking about practicing kindness in a
way that includes you, right?
So you need to make sure thatthere's still one cookie left at
a minimum for you at the end.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Yeah.
Or if there are no cookies left,that you're actually okay with
that.
Because I do realize that beingin a relationship or being in
whatever it is kind ofsituation, sometimes, yeah,
there might not be anythingleft.
But I think the problem comes alot of times when we keep doing
this over and over and over, andwe're also not okay with it.
(22:04):
So when we automatically sayyes, we don't even have time to
think if I'm actually likeleaving something for me or if
I'm seriously okay with uhwhat's left or what's not left
for me.
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
How do you address feeling selfish for when you try
to back out of these peoplepleasing tendencies and starting
to say no?
Growing up, I was it was kind oftaught and ingrained in me that
I, you know, would be selflessand I would give myself to like
help other people and and bethere for other people.
So sometimes it feels reallyselfish if I'm not saying yes to
(22:40):
them.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is actually what I wantedto say earlier.
I lost my train of thought.
But yes, it takes uh reframingthese beliefs that we have and
challenging these beliefs,questioning ourselves, like, am
I actually really being selfishuh by doing this action?
And a lot of times the answer isprobably no.
(23:01):
And there's ways to know ifyou're being selfish or not.
Um so it really comes down to,as I was saying earlier, what
we're actually okay with.
Um if we're okay with beingleft, um, you know, kind of in
the red, we say, then that isactually okay.
If we know how to recuperate, ifwe know how to move on or
transition from that, thenthat's totally fine.
(23:24):
Uh, but it really takeschallenging these beliefs.
Um, there is a practice that Ilike to do.
Uh, it is called the yes check.
Um, and that is when someoneasks you for something, um, you
ask yourself, am I actuallydoing this because I really want
to, or am I doing this becauseI'm actually afraid of what's
(23:47):
going to happen, or if I say no.
Uh, so a lot of us have no andselfish tied together.
And that is just a belief thatthat gets to be broken.
And it comes with practice, weget more confident, the more we
answer authentically or makeagreements more authentically,
the less power that guilt andthat feeling of being selfish is
(24:11):
going to have over us.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
For sure.
What is one myth about peoplepleasing or boundaries that you
would love to bust?
SPEAKER_01 (24:19):
Oh, there are a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Okay, let's let's list them.
SPEAKER_01 (24:24):
I'd love to hear these.
One of them you just mentionedthat I'm selfish if I say no.
Uh, other people also I'venoticed uh think that, you know,
if you um if you set boundarieswith other people, um then
you're being like uh selfish,like you said, or that you're
(24:46):
being uh a bad person by havingboundaries.
Because I have literally seen, Isaw something online the other
day where someone said uh insome sort of relationship or
situation, well, there should beno boundaries between this
person and the other person.
Uh and I beg to differ there.
Uh it does to me, it doesn'tmatter what situation it is,
whether it's work uh or evenlike in a marriage or a
(25:09):
relationship, there still haveto be boundaries because
sometimes it's not that we'rewith unhealthy individuals, but
there might be somethingunhealthy, like an unhealthy
element about the situation.
And if that person does not knowhow to like manage their anger
or manage whatever it is, theirsadness, then we have to know
our own limits of how we'rewilling to interact with those
(25:32):
other people.
Because if you just take oneverybody's problems, there's
going to be burnout.
So that is, I think, one of thebigger myths that we have to
bust is that there should belike no limits, no boundaries.
Uh and so I think the myth thereis that by having a boundary,
I'm like creating this big wallwith other people.
(25:52):
I'm shutting them out.
When actually I'm not, I'mactually welcoming them in, but
I'm welcoming them in with somestructure.
Yeah, it's like I like to saythat it's love with structure.
So that would be the myth, Iguess, is that no boundaries.
But I would say the reality isyou're actually creating uh more
room and more space in therelationship because everybody,
(26:15):
everything is all out on thetable about what you're willing
to do and what you're notwilling to do.
And that to me is freedom.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
Yeah, it's it's tough when you start setting
boundaries.
It uh it's it's it's tough, andit does require that mindset
shift to to be able to do it andand realize that you're not
being mean to the other person,you're not shutting them out,
you're really just protectingyour space and and your peace.
SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, because if we look aroundat different things in society,
uh one thing that's coming tomind is uh like responsibility
and accountability.
And I think that settingboundaries is directly in line
with being accountable and beingresponsible, because if we allow
(27:04):
people to do things that areviolating us or maybe even
themselves, then we are actuallytaking part.
I laugh out loud because Irecognize the truth in it.
We're actually taking in part insomething, here's that word
again, detrimental.
Uh and for me, it just you know,when you're in it, you're in it,
(27:25):
right?
But now that I'm uh I guess I'llsay on the other side or have
found a solution to it, uh, nowI'm paying attention, like I
cannot participate in certainthings because of my morals,
because of my values.
Um so it's really about having agut check with yourself too.
About it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
Yeah.
My gut talks loud and clear.
Every time something feels off,my gut lets me know right away.
And for years I ignored it, butnow I'm I'm getting better at
paying attention to it.
Yeah.
So you've created the releaseframework.
Can you walk us through whatthat is?
SPEAKER_01 (28:00):
Absolutely, yeah.
Um, and to put it like in anutshell to make it short, it is
the way, as we've kind of beentalking about, um, to go from
being that overgiver from beingin detrimental kindness to
getting to the point where youare actually being filled up by
your kindness, by your giving.
The giving is coming from aplace of overflow.
(28:22):
Uh, so it's pretty simple.
Uh, it is number one torecognize the patterns.
Uh, and that's what we the bookbreaks down is how to recognize
these patterns.
Uh, I'll give you a quick uhlittle snapshot of the three
faces of detrimental kindness,and they're mentioned in the
book.
One of the faces of detrimentalkindness, the pattern is the
(28:43):
accommodator.
Uh, the accommodator likes tomake sure that everybody is okay
and that everybody is good allthe time.
They may not even worry aboutthemselves uh before they make
sure that everybody else isaccommodated and taken care of.
They're a little bit more focal,I would say, than the other
patterns that we've seen uh withdetrimental kindness because
(29:03):
they will let you know that theywant to make sure that you're
okay.
Um other one is the rescuer.
They will take on your problemswithout even second guessing it.
If you are short on money,they're coming to the rescue.
If you are short on time, youdidn't plan out your time,
they're gonna come and see howthey can help you, or even make
(29:24):
excuses for you as well.
So they come to the rescue.
It is hard for a rescuer to justsimply sit and watch other
people experience theconsequences of their actions.
Um, it can show up in differentways.
At work, we have bosses.
Um I had a boss, this was yearsago, who actually called out to
(29:46):
work for me because I had donesomething that wouldn't allow me
to come to work.
Um, so my boss had actuallycalled the rest of the team and
told them that I wasn't coming.
So I I think about that now, howthat was detrimental kindness as
well, because he the boss didnot allow me to experience
whatever consequence was comingfor calling out to work when I
knew that it really wasn't alegitimate reason to have called
(30:06):
out.
So there's the rescuer.
The last one I think getsoverlooked a lot, uh, and that
is the peacekeeper.
They are usually very, very,very quiet.
They do not say a lot uh when itcomes to like conflict.
They'll just be like, oh yeah,whatever.
Uh even like going out to eat.
They don't want any conflictabout even where we're going to
(30:27):
eat, whether it's Mexican orJapanese.
Oh, whatever you say is whatthey'll do, just so that there's
no argument about it.
So it's so quiet that youwouldn't even notice.
It's kind of in a way, passiveis the closest word I can come
to to think of it, but there'sdefinitely is um like a default
to allowing someone else to makethe decision for you.
(30:48):
And it's not necessarily a badthing.
Sometimes we're tired and fromwork or whatever, and we don't
want to think, and it feels goodto let someone else say, hey,
you know what?
Let's go out to Japanesetonight, uh, and maybe we'll
pick a different place the nexttime.
Uh so those are the three facesof detrimental kindness, it's
recognizing that pattern.
Um, usually most people fit intoone or all, I've seen that, uh,
(31:11):
of those three faces.
All right, so the next phase umis to release the guilt.
We've talked about that a littlebit, but there's a process that
we go through of reframing thebeliefs that we have about, oh,
what did I just do?
Why did I just say no when I'mso used to saying yes?
So it's about releasing theguilt.
(31:31):
And then number three, it'sabout reclaiming our voice.
Uh, and that just simply meansthat we are now able to speak up
uh and also use our voice.
I always say um that you canspeak up, but still not use your
voice.
So sometimes we get loud orraise our voice, but we're still
actually not sharing.
(31:53):
The truth of our experience.
I have been there many, manytimes where I'm just shouting,
which I don't do anymore.
I, oh goodness, I've come a longway.
I don't believe in raisingvoices or anything like that
anymore.
I think that we should be civiland let's have a conversation.
But I have been there where Ihave kind of raised my voice or
tried to get someone else to seemy voice by using these
(32:15):
different strategies ortechniques.
So there's sometimes silence.
I want people to understand thatsometimes being silent and not
being the one to like argue withsomeone else that may actually
speak a little bit louder thanyou're yelling and your shouting
and these long text messages,you know, to other people to try
and make them or emails to getthem to understand.
(32:36):
Sometimes it's just a quietstillness, and that stillness
will uh allow space um forpeople to recognize that you're
not coming from uh a place ofwanting to fight, you're not
wanting to defend yourself,you're just simply allowing time
so that you can really workthrough the situation.
Um, so that's what yeah, Reclaimthe Voice is all about.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
So you talked about shouting and and and yelling,
but not actually communicatinganything.
Can you talk about that a littlebit more?
SPEAKER_01 (33:08):
Yes, 100%.
Um, it's one thing to like makea commentary about something,
but there is another thing aboutcommunication.
That's what it's really, really,really all about here.
And when we raise our voice,naturally the other person may
be on the defense a little bitor they may run.
(33:31):
Some people are are not going toengage in the yelling uh and the
screaming, they are going toexit the situation, they are
going to avoid it.
I I think it was uh what's hisname?
John Bowby, I think was hisname, who came up with the four
attachment styles.
So basically, what someone haslearned is during conflict or
whatever situation it is, toeither run towards the situation
(33:55):
or maybe run from the situationor stay in the situation, but be
able to articulate what yourlimits uh and values are in the
situation.
So the difference, for example,I could uh maybe uh let's say
you know there's a situation ina marriage where a lot of times
it's the husband leaving likeclothes out on the floor.
(34:17):
I've been guilty of that before.
That's why I can say thatexample because I just come in
and like, okay, I gotta change,I gotta run to go play games or
whatever, yeah, whatever it is.
Um, and so if I'm getting yelledat, right, I'm automatically on
the defense.
My nervous system, the way I'vebeen trained, is to I'm gonna,
you know, kind of buck up here,like, hey, hold on, you're
(34:39):
you're this is my space too,right?
So we're we get in defensivemode.
Rather than, hey, you know what?
It's just a little bituncomfortable for me when there
are things around the place.
Uh, is there a way that we canwork on maybe having things
organized or maybe just nothaving them like here where you
know it's the common area?
(34:59):
So there is a difference, right?
We're actually communicatingwhat our experience is, and
people actually listen to usmore and respect us more when we
actually say, like, hey, this ismy experience, because what no
one can ever do really, they cantry to, but they cannot
invalidate your experience.
We know what's going on withinourselves, other people don't.
(35:23):
They may try to guess, and wemay say that someone's our
soulmate and our life partner,but even they don't always know
what's going on with us.
And when we make theseassumptions, and then when we
try to say, well, how come youdidn't know XYZ?
How could you not know that?
It hadn't been shared, but ithadn't been communicated with
them.
And again, it's not fair to themeither if we don't share that
(35:45):
with them, because they're leftin a place of not just not
knowing.
And so they may try somethinglike a strategy or whatever or a
solution that's actually notfitting for the situation.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
Yeah.
We uh we moved about a year ago,and so we had all these boxes
piled up.
And for me, I was like, oh, Idon't really want to deal with
this just now.
I've got all these things on thego.
I'm just gonna leave these boxeshere.
And it wasn't until my partnersaid, this is stressful for me
to see all these boxes, and it'scausing me to feel not very
(36:18):
good.
And and at that point I thought,okay, now we need to deal with
these boxes because I I don'twant anybody feeling bad.
But we we're all different.
And it wasn't until it wasexplained to me how it made the
other person feel that I trulyunderstood that, you know,
although I might be able toleave the mess behind, I I can
(36:40):
help in in making life betterfor someone else.
SPEAKER_01 (36:43):
Yeah, that's what it's all about.
And and sometimes it's aboutmaking it better for ourselves
too.
I've realized um sometimes I didnot know that, oh wow, that
actually does feel pretty good.
Yeah.
That experience, you may realizethat, oh yeah, actually you're
right uh uh about whatever thesituation may be.
(37:04):
So that's why I'd say it'simportant, but it also just
makes the relationship evenmore, I'd say, connected.
Uh, because you're not justthere, you're actually being
there with the other person.
Like they are in your world,you're in theirs, and everyone
can really, really not just getalong, but co-create things
(37:26):
together, co-create a home thatfeels good for everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Um my partner makes the bed allthe time, and and I've never
been a bed maker.
And uh, so you know,begrudgingly now I'm like, oh, I
gotta make the bed every day.
And um I wasn't happy about it.
But now I'm like, you know what,it actually kind of makes me
feel good, right?
You walk into the room,everything looks lovely and
presentable, and it makes mefeel good.
(37:52):
And I didn't, I don't think Iknew that I would feel that way.
Um, but in the beginning, and itwas it was tough for me to get
into that habit.
And um, yeah, just the other dayI was like, don't don't hold
this against me, and you know,but I actually like the bed made
and I've changed my mind.
But um yeah.
That's interesting.
(38:13):
So let's get back to um likeguilt and overgiving.
Um, those things often show uphand in hand.
So how do you coach people tomove through guilt without
getting stuck in shame ordefensiveness?
SPEAKER_01 (38:25):
Yeah, well, the first thing uh to do when it
comes to the guilt, right, isrecognize when it's coming up.
I like doing inventories, right?
Uh one of the biggest thingsthat happened to me happen uh
when we're recognizing mydetrimental kindness.
It happened to me on a Sundaynight at 2 a.m.
I was just exhausted.
(38:46):
Now I normally reflect, Sundaysis are my reflection days.
I think about you know whathappened, what I did good the
last week, maybe what didn't goin so well, and how I can maybe
even do better or improve orwhat I need to take care of for
the coming week ahead.
And in that reflection, in thatinventory, I realized those
moments where I actually did notsave enough time for taking care
(39:08):
of projects that I wanted totake care of because every time
we say yes, we're gonna say noto something for ourselves in
some sort of way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's almost like no way toreally avoid that, but paying
attention to the pattern of itis the first thing that we do.
So we we do an inventory, right?
(39:29):
For the coaching, uh, to seewhere we're actually having that
guilt come up, where is theovergiving showing up?
Sometimes we can actually lookand see what was happening right
before that event as well,because sometimes we're caught
off guard, especially like 2a.m.
You're tired, you just are notthinking too well when you're
tired.
So it's natural, right?
(39:50):
Some people that's when they getreally, really caught in the
detriment of kindness, you'rejust exhausted, and to just the
easiest thing to do is say yes,leave me alone, go away.
And then later you're like, nowwhy did I do that?
So it's it's important to justrecognize that pattern first.
And it's just about creatingawareness.
I tell clients, you're notwrong, you're not bad.
(40:11):
We're not placing any type ofjudgment at all for any decision
that you make, whether it is yesor no.
This is your life, right?
But we're making sure that thelife that you say you want to
have is the life that you'reactually having.
So if it's not, then what weneed to do is start looking at
these patterns and start makinga new choice about those
(40:32):
patterns.
It really, really comes down toour identity.
And I would say that it's notthat we need to change who we
are, we need to change what webelieve about who we are, is
what the real comes from.
You see clients to start, orI've seen clients like peel back
the layers.
Uh they some of them lookphysically different once they
(40:54):
start making these changes.
It's it's just incredible.
That's why I saytransformational coaching
because it's the sameindividual, but they've peeled
back some of the layers, thesemasks and these faces of
detrimental kindness thatthey're wearing.
And then like this glow comesback.
Even and uh to brag about me alittle bit.
I I'll show you uh maybe laterin one of my before and after
(41:15):
pictures.
Um it's just a night and daydifference of how I looked with
detrimental.
Uh you probably saw thatcommercial growing up.
Like, this is your brain.
SPEAKER_00 (41:25):
Yeah, I think I saw it.
It's on Instagram, right?
Your before and after.
SPEAKER_01 (41:29):
Yeah, I'm gonna make that a caption like this is your
this is me.
I should not say other people.
This is me on detrimentalkindness, and then that's like
the after shot.
Well, so you see the layersstart to peel back, and and
that's where you really see thattransformation is when people
start to bring out the kindness,the authentic kindness that has
(41:50):
been hidden.
I always tell clients, it is ournature to be kindness, but just
like we have things like um uhthe Ten Commandments or whatever
they are, it shows up indifferent even more places have
like a list of like code ofconduct or whatever.
To me, it's just natural to havethose things because the natural
tendency uh is there, right?
(42:12):
But it's giving us a guidelineon what to do with that natural
tendency.
So when it comes to kindness,right, these boundaries are
telling us what to do with thattendency.
It's not actually telling us whonot to be, it's telling us who
to be.
SPEAKER_00 (42:27):
Is your framework able to help with perfectionism?
SPEAKER_01 (42:31):
100%, because perfectionism, if you ask me, is
really about control.
Uh, but I have one of my uhfamous lines, I probably say it
a little bit too much, is thatyour need to be perfect and your
need to be in control isactually controlling you rather
than you being in control.
(42:52):
And that was said to me actuallyfirst, so that's where I get
that from.
So, yes, uh, because it's thatdetrimental kindness is not
necessarily about how you'regonna look to other people, it
is about how you look toyourself as well, right?
How we view ourselves.
So sometimes that detrimentalkindness has nothing to do with
like our mom or dad, sisters,brothers, or boss.
(43:14):
It has to do with me, even ifyou look at, like I said, those
before and after photos, it wasme not saying no to myself when
I know that I've eaten like thefifth pint of ice cream after I
said that I wasn't, I keepcaving in, right?
Even after I tell myself, thisis it, yada yada.
And that's just one of myclassic examples.
There are many differentexamples of perfectionism where
(43:36):
it's actually the same thing.
It is that at the end of theday, instead of authentically
being present, right, withourselves or with other people,
we are trying to perform andcreate like this narrative or
this image or this appearancethat things have to be a certain
way in order for them to beacceptable.
(43:56):
We are perfect just as we are.
There is really no need to thereis to me, if you ask me, uh it's
kind of two different things.
There's really no such thing asperfect, uh, but then there is
perfect imperfection.
If that makes sense to ouraudience, right?
So it's beautiful just as it is.
(44:17):
We all have maybe things that weare are great at and things that
we are not so great at, butthat's actually makes us like
who we are, and it's perfectlyokay.
SPEAKER_00 (44:27):
So with perfectionism, you're saying
that it's it's about control.
So can you explain how that howthat works?
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
Yeah, 100%.
When it comes to being incontrol, uh a lot of us uh from
conditioning, like from ourchildhood, like if you ever had
someone else come into yourspace, no one else was allowed
to enter that space unless thehome or the person appeared a
certain way.
(44:55):
Other people were not allowed tocome in and just experience you
as you are in your fullness andyour wholeness and your good,
your bad, and your ugly.
Okay, you need to, I'm justmaking silly examples, tuck your
shirt in or brush your teeth,whatever.
And yes, we need to bepresentable, obviously, but it
goes too far, right, when theonly thing that matters is what
(45:17):
other people think about us,right, or about what other
people think.
We're trying to control that,right?
We're worried, oh, they're gonnathink that we're a messy family,
or they're they're going tothink that I'm, you know, uh uh
an alcoholic, or they're goingto think that I'm a food addict.
And that is actually the orderof the day, instead of just
(45:39):
authentically connecting withother people.
So that's where theperfectionism comes.
Uh, is you're trying to controlhow other people perceive you,
and that's actuallymanipulation.
I really hope the officer gotthat.
That it is actuallymanipulation.
You're trying to really focusand control how someone else
perceives you.
It's their mind, it is theirperception.
(46:01):
You can preach to them all daylong about how valuable you are
and how wonderful you are, andhow for me it used I'm a really
good catch.
SPEAKER_00 (46:12):
Yeah.
But they're gonna make up theirown minds.
SPEAKER_01 (46:15):
They're gonna make up their own mind anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (46:18):
For sure, for sure.
So you shared that you'vepersonally struggled with
overgiving.
I heard addiction in there atsome point and self-sabotage.
So, what was your turning pointand what's one thing that you
wish you had known earlier inyour healing journey, if if you
feel comfortable talking aboutthat?
SPEAKER_01 (46:37):
Absolutely.
And I talked about it in thebook, actually, is I uh had been
asked by a really good friend ofmine to help move their
apartment.
Um, before the friend couldfinish asking, I said yes.
There was that automatic yes,sure, yes, no problem.
Uh, absolutely, I can.
I canceled my plans for theweekend.
You know, this was supposed tohappen over weekend, so I
(46:59):
canceled all my plans.
I had a couple of reservationsthat cost money, and so I
canceled the reservations,knowing that I was not getting
the money back for thereservations because there's
that control again.
I wanted to, I didn't maybedidn't know it at the time, but
looking back, what it was is Iwanted to be that good friend,
that friend that did not say no,like, oh well, maybe no one else
(47:20):
is going to help them, so I haveto be the one to help.
Um, so I carried boxes, I drovea U-Haul truck.
Uh, we went up and down flightsof stairs.
I was exhausted by the time wefinished moving.
But the thing is, is I smiledand I say grand the whole time,
but I was burning up inside atmyself, really like, why did I
(47:42):
do this?
Why did I say yes?
And go ahead and cancel all myplans and lose money just to
appear to be a good friend.
So when I got home that weekend,I realized that I hadn't done
anything, gotten done not onesingle thing that I had wanted
to do, absolutely nothing.
And here I am, resentful.
And I said, okay, this isactually it.
(48:02):
This has gone way too far towhere I am now being that good
person, uh, and but leavingmyself out and and abandoning
myself.
So that was really because I hadto work that next morning at 7
a.m.
Not like be ready at get to workby 7.
Be at the desk and ready.
So now it's two o'clock, like,okay, now I'm not gonna get good
(48:24):
rest.
So I have yet again, because acouple things that happened
before, it's like, okay, yetagain, I've done this thing
here.
Uh, so I have to put an end toit.
Um, so that is what was like theturning, uh, that was the
turning point for me, uh,really, even beyond the
addiction, because like theaddiction to the substances and
the processes, like I had kindof overcame that, but I didn't
(48:48):
look deeper actually at thisparticular thing, my need to
make others happy, or my ownneed to kind of put myself as
this person or this guy uh whowas always nice and who never
disappointed uh other people.
So that was a tipping point forme.
I just knew after that, like,okay, this is just it's too in
(49:08):
my face.
unknown (49:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:10):
Yeah, to not deal with it.
SPEAKER_00 (49:12):
And at that point, you knew you needed to make a
change.
SPEAKER_01 (49:15):
Oh, 100%.
Because this was a really dearfriend of mine, and we're still
dear friends, just for therecord.
Uh, I knew after that, though,like, okay, people that I love,
there there's has to be a comthere's a common denominator
here when I'm like angry andresentful at people who I care
about the most.
There's something not rightabout this equation here.
(49:40):
If I'm like getting not, but notexpressing it either, uh, or not
like saying, like, hey, yeah, Ican help you out for a couple
hours, uh, but I gotta run bytwo o'clock.
Well, I could have just simplydone that, but I was so far into
the detrimental kindness thatthat wouldn't have worked at
that time.
That's like setting a boundary,and it's still like, oh yeah,
you're still being selfishbecause you didn't give your
(50:01):
all.
Um, so yeah, that's that's how Iknew and and this isn't your
friend's fault, right?
SPEAKER_00 (50:08):
Like you're you're resentful, you're super angry at
the situation all day, but it'sit's not it's not your friend's
fault.
And um he probably doesn't evenknow that all this is going on
in your mind at the time.
SPEAKER_01 (50:20):
Right.
Yeah.
It was all smiles.
Oh, hey man, this is awesome.
Um people ask, hey, are you iseverything okay?
Oh, yes, absolutely, which is uha form of lying.
unknown (50:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:35):
That also, and I just got tired of that.
Like it is, I was thinking aboutthis, uh I think it was either
last night or the night before,about how exhausting detrimental
kindness and people pleasing canbe, because it takes a lot of
energy, it takes a lot of effortand resources as well to hide
your true feelings.
It can really, really drain youto the point where you don't
(50:57):
even know.
You look in the mirror and likeI looked in the mirror and I was
like, who is this guy?
I'm actually becoming themonster now.
Uh, because it's not otherpeople that are the monsters
really taking advantage, it's mebeing the monster by acting like
I'm just so you know happy andjoyful, but really um ready
inside, angry.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:18):
So for someone who's listening right now who feels
trapped in people pleasing andcan't imagine any other way of
living, what would you say isthe first step to encourage
them?
SPEAKER_01 (51:28):
Well, I will say uh my book is an awesome place to
start detrimental kindness, justreading through that book.
Not only my story, because Ilove relating with people, but
it's literally like I say like aplaybook or a framework uh for
overcoming detrimental kindnessand people pleasing.
Um, and to give themselves uh wesay grace, I guess there's many
(51:50):
different words for it, is tonumber one let go of the belief
that it's their fault.
We just in society, we are justtaught in so many different ways
by good people to put ourselveslast and to make all these
sacrifices.
Uh and it's just programming,but to realize that we can
unprogram, we can unlearn thesethings.
(52:10):
I would say that is the firstplace to start, right?
Because a lot of us come in.
I came in, right, to this thing,beating myself up, like, oh, I'm
such a I'm not gonna say anynames, but you can imagine what
names I would have said tomyself uh about my people
pleasing.
So it's about letting go of thatand actually realizing that a
lot of times there is probably alittle boy or a little girl
(52:35):
inside that was trained to bethat way, but we can untrain as
well just as easily as wetrained.
SPEAKER_00 (52:42):
Yeah, I love that reminder of not beating
ourselves up for some of ourthings that we've said um or or
done or being stuck in peoplepleasing.
It's easy to beat ourselves upfor that.
SPEAKER_01 (52:55):
Yeah, it is.
I I tell clients all the time.
Um, not that there's a literalbaseball bat, but I ask them,
like, are you picking thebaseball bat up again and
beating yourself up with itagain?
And they're like, Yeah.
I was like, all right, well, yougot a choice.
You can keep batting, or you canjust put the baseball bat down.
(53:17):
Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:19):
And and figure out how to move past this.
Exactly.
Jason, where can people findyou?
SPEAKER_01 (53:25):
Yeah, so uh the best place to find me is on
Instagram.
Uh my uh handle, which will I'msure we'll share in the notes
there, but it's Coach JasonJohnson.
There right now, no other coachJason Johnson's on Instagram.
I am the only one, so my my faceshould appear there.
Uh but that's where I connectpeople.
There's links to like a freetraining that I give about
(53:46):
detrimental kindness.
There is the link also there tobuy the book.
My uh, I guess mission is topost as much uh things as I can
as well.
So there are lots of differenteducational posts.
I attend some of them wherepeople can read or watch like
the reel or the video and learna little bit more about
detrimental kindness or aboutwhat I do.
(54:07):
Uh, there's some testimonialssprinkled out there uh online on
my page as well, so you canmaybe read through those just
staying, uh, or barring otherpeople's beliefs uh about
overcoming detrimental kindness.
So that's where they can find meon Instagram, uh, and there's
tons of like resources therethat people can grab um to to
(54:28):
yeah to make the needle movewith overcoming detrimental
kindness.
SPEAKER_00 (54:33):
Show notes.
SPEAKER_01 (54:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:34):
Jason, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and
your story with us today.
And I know a lot of my listenersare gonna walk away with lots of
practical tools and with a lotof hope that change is possible.
So I'm grateful that you tookthe time to be here.
It was great to see you.
Yeah.
And thanks for spending timewith us today.
If this episode resonated withyou, feel free to share it with
(54:56):
a friend or anyone who could usea little encouragement.
The more these conversationsspread, the more people that we
can reach together.
And if you'd like to stayconnected, make sure that you
follow me.
I'm most active on Facebook atthe Codependent Doctor and on
Instagram at DRAngela Downey.
I'd love to hear your thoughts,so don't be shy about leaving a
comment or reaching out.
I wish you all a great week asyou learn to foster a better
(55:17):
relationship with the mostimportant person in your life.
Yourself.
I'm gonna see you here again inanother two weeks with another
episode of the CodependentDoctor.
Take care for now.
You've got this.
Thanks for spending time with metoday.
I hope something in this episoderesonated with you.
If it did, hit follow,subscribe, or share it with
someone who needs to hear ittoday.
(55:37):
The codependent doctor is notmedical advice and doesn't
replace speaking to yourhealthcare provider.
If you're in a crisis, please goto the nearest ER or call 911 or
reach out to your local mentalhealth helpline.
I'll be back here next week withmore support, stories, and
strategies because we're healingtogether.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.