October 21, 2025 • 44 mins
Jenn Fredericks, Personal Resilience Practitioner and founder of The Carewell Circle, joins us to talk about Prosilience, a proactive approach to resilience, and why managing your energy (not just your time) is the key to staying afloat. Jenn shares powerful stories from her own journey as both a two-time kidney transplant recipient and a caregiver for her daughter with a brain tumor, and offers practical strategies to help you pause, refill, and reconnect with yourself.
Connect with Jenn on Instagram, Facebook or her website. She also invites you to join the Carewell Circle for 2 weeks.
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📗 My Books: Enough as I Am (codependency recovery) Enough as I Grow (365 day guide journal). Affiliate disclosure: I am an affiliate parner with Amazon and therefore receive a commission at no cost to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
If you've ever felt like you're carrying the weight
of your family, your work, yourhealth, and somehow still
expected to smile through itall, this episode is for you.
Today we're talking about whatburnout really feels like when
you're a caregiver and stilltrying to be human.
My guest, Jen Fredericks, bringsa deeply personal and incredibly
insightful take on resilience.
Not the push harder kind, butthe kind that begins with
(00:22):
something radical, a pause.
We're getting into how to manageyour energy and not just your
time, how to stop leaking yourenergy everywhere, and why it's
okay not to be everything toeveryone.
Welcome to the CodependentDoctor, a podcast where we
unpack the messy, beautifuljourney of healing from
codependency.
If you're burned out from peoplepleasing, stuck in unhealthy
(00:44):
patterns, or just tired ofputting yourself last, you're in
the right place.
I'm Dr.
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, and I'm
here to help you reconnect toyour authentic self.
One honest conversation at atime.
Here we go.
Hello to all my wonderfulpodcast listeners.
I'm Dr.
Angela Downey and you'relistening to Codependent Doctor.
(01:05):
Today's episode is a little bitdifferent.
As some of you may know, I havea second podcast called Paging
Dr.
Mom.
I've just interviewed a guestthat I loved, and I think that
her message would be great forCodependent Doctor podcasts.
So I'm going to be sharing ithere as well.
You might hear me refer tomothers and women a lot.
That's just because my otherpodcast is geared towards female
(01:28):
physicians.
However, please know thateverything that we share today
is good for everyone, whetheryou're male, female, mother,
father.
And I really think that hermessage is great and that you're
going to benefit from it.
So please forgive me for that.
And I do mention Paging Dr.
Mom in the episode, but I thinkthat you're going to really
benefit as well.
So I hope you enjoy.
(01:49):
I'm going to introduce you totoday's guest.
Jen Fredericks is a personalresilience practitioner and
prosilience coach who helpsfamily caregivers move from
burnout to balance.
She's a two-time kidneytransplant recipient and a
longtime caregiver for herdaughter with a brain tumor.
Jen brings a rare dualperspective to the table, a
patient and a caregiver.
(02:11):
She's the founder of theCareWell Circle and teaches a
proactive resilience methodcalled prosilience, designed for
those feeling overwhelmed,depleted, or stuck.
And her message, that realresilience starts with a pause,
not pushing harder.
I am so excited to have Jen onthe show today.
She's someone who truly gets theinvisible labor that so many of
us are carrying, not justbecause she works in this space
(02:33):
professionally, but becauseshe's lived it.
She has this incredible way ofcombining real life experience
with practical, research-backedtools, and she's gonna leave you
with insights that are actuallyuseful, not just inspirational.
And I'm really grateful thatshe's here with us today.
Hi Jen, it's so great to haveyou on Paging Doctor Mom today.
How are you doing?
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
I'm really well.
Thanks for having me today, Dr.
Angela.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
I'm really glad that we're finally getting to
connect.
This is great.
So maybe we can start by havingyou introduce yourself and tell
us about your journey tobecoming a prosilience coach.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Sure.
I mean, I think it was decadesin the making, actually.
Um so as you mentioned, I'm apresilience coach.
I'm also a personal resiliencepractitioner, and I primarily
support family caregivers whoare caring for those with
chronic illness or otherdifficult illnesses.
Um, I also have worked incorporate marketing for 16 years
(03:24):
before I started coaching.
And so when I heard thedescription of your podcast and
listened to episodes, I'm like,okay, yeah, this all resonates
with me very, very much.
I think I really started tolearn about resilience, which is
part of pro-resilience, whichwe'll talk about, when I
(03:47):
received my first kidneytransplant in 1993 when I was 16
years old.
And it just grew from there.
I then adopted a daughter withmy husband in 2008.
And in 2015, she was diagnosedwith a low-grade brain tumor.
And at that point, I was workingat Harley Davidson, a motor
(04:09):
company in their marketingdepartment.
I was managing my own health.
Uh, I had at that point had mysecond kidney transplant in
2012.
My first one from my dad justkind of went, uh, and I'm done.
And so learning to manage and doit without apologizing for the
ambition that I wanted to reachwhile I was still managing my
own chronic illness, while I wasin my career, while I was also
(04:33):
caring for my daughter who wasjust diagnosed with the brain
tumor, really started to weighon me.
But also, I didn't want to giveup all of those dreams I held
and the goals I had for myselfbecause of circumstances that
were outside of my control.
And so I did, I think what mostwomen do who are high achievers
(04:55):
and wanting to reach manydifferent goals in different
parts of their lives, I keptpushing.
I kept pushing.
And I pushed so hard until mybody said, You haven't been
listening to my subtle cues.
So here we go.
And my um anxiety around notbeing able to support my
daughter the way that I wantedto, through some emotional and
(05:17):
mental behavior changes afterher diagnosis.
Um, my body said, Yeah, um,we're not gonna eat without
feeling sick afterwards.
Um, we're not going to be ableto stay up and watch TV with our
husband because you're soexhausted and drained from
everything that you push throughduring the day.
(05:38):
And I dropped down to a hundredpounds because I couldn't eat
without getting sick.
And I finally was like, wait aminute.
All of these people are tellingme that I'm resilient, but do
they not see?
What does that mean?
I don't understand how I canfeel this badly physically,
mentally, emotionally,spiritually, but everyone else
(05:59):
is saying that I'm doing such agood job.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
Or saying, I don't know how you do it.
I don't know.
You're like, yeah, I'm not.
You're melting on the inside.
You're like, I don't feel likeI'm handling it all.
Like, what are you seeing that Ican't see?
SPEAKER_01 (06:13):
Exactly.
So that led me on a whim,decided maybe I'll try this
coaching thing.
And it was a lifeline.
I was doing it for my career,but I was really doing it for
me.
And I I healed some and Istarted looking into well, what
do they mean I'm resilient?
And I started researchingcompassion, fatigue, and you
(06:34):
know, uh compassion, resilience,and compassion.
And I ran across prosilience,which I'm sure we'll talk about
a little bit later, whichactually really helped me heal
and not only helped me in thechaos of the mess that I was in,
but helped me find relief inthat mess.
But it also was strengthening myresilience for this ongoing
(06:56):
marathon of my kidney disease,of my daughter's brain tumor
journey, and also of me thenbecoming an entrepreneur and
helping others who are in thesame place that I was.
SPEAKER_00 (07:09):
What is the difference between resilience
and prosilience?
SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
They're very closely related.
Uh I the reframe I like isbecause a lot of people think
about resilience as um fallingdown and then pulling yourself
back up or bouncing back.
And my thought is why do we needto work so hard to pull
ourselves back up if we don'tneed to fall at all, or if we
don't need to fall so far?
SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
And that's where presilience has helped me, those
the proactive resilience piece.
So it's taking the time to bepresent and intentional with
different parts of ourresilience.
And there are four buildingblocks of pro-resilience that I
work on with people.
Let's strengthen those byfinding relief in the moment and
also preparing ourselves to bemore sustainable in the future.
SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
So pro-resilience is really just steps that you can
take to make yourself wellenough so that when you fall,
you don't fall as hard and it'sa little bit easier for you to
get back up after.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
Right.
So when I start working withclients, um, we usually take a
look at where they're at intheir baseline resilience and we
get them back up to thatbaseline, help find some
stability, some homeostasis.
And then from there, we startbuilding other pieces of our
building blocks andstrengthening them so that the
next crisis that comes, the nextchange that comes, the next
(08:34):
uncertainty that we're facing,because we know that that's
guaranteed in life, we can catchourselves and we have a
strategic plan of how to movethrough and meet that challenge
and that uncertainty.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
I know for myself, when I was starting to feel
really burnt out and I just keptpushing through, I started
getting sicker and sicker andsicker.
And I'm like, I can just powerthrough this.
And then I would just get sickeragain.
And I just, it like it neverended.
And there was all these signs inmy body telling me, you need to
change something, right?
(09:08):
Something needs to change.
You're not well and you can'tjust keep pushing through this.
And I see so many of mycolleagues being nervous about
calling in sick.
Yeah.
Um, even though they can likehardly drag themselves out of
bed because they feel eitherguilty for their patients or
guilty that they're putting thisextra stress and strain on their
colleagues or the medicalsystem.
(09:29):
So it's it's really important toget ahead of these things and
make sure that you're reallytaking good care of yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
I'm so glad you mentioned that.
And I'm actually I've beeninvited into several um health
systems, nonprofits, foundationsin order to work on one of the
strategic building blocks ofprosilience, which I love and I
usually start with all of myclients in the organizations, is
the managing personal energypiece.
And so when we're able to startdoing that, it's easier to
(09:58):
fulfill our heart-based servicein whatever your profession's
in, where you are serving andcaring for others, without, you
know, prescribing to some of themore performative self-care
things that we're always uhasked to do.
Like these energy practices areactually ones that will help you
find relief in the moment andalso help you refill your, you
(10:24):
know, your gas tank for the nextmoment.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
I definitely want to get into those four building
blocks.
Um I think that'll be reallyimportant.
But first, I just want to talklike, were there any moments
that brought you like to yourknees?
And how did that shift your viewof resilience?
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
Yes.
I'm thinking of like three rightnow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:42):
But not that having two kidney transplants and a
daughter who was sick, you know,isn't enough.
But like you, you obviously youtried to get through all that,
but were there some momentswhere where you realized I just
can't keep doing this?
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
Yeah.
And I think that's one thingthat really blindsided me was
having three decades of my ownchronic illness management,
being very familiar with themedical system, being very, very
comfortable advocating formyself and and for my daughter
in the medical setting.
Then to have these emotional andmental and behavioral things
come up, I didn't know how tosupport her because that's not
(11:17):
how I processed my my medicalexperience or, you know, nothing
bad happened to me during mytransplants, but it's all
medical trauma.
These are huge things.
And I know that her diagnosisand the week in the hospital
there and all of those thingswere actually also medical
traumas for her because she hadnever had anything like that
happen.
(11:37):
Um, but what's really standingout to me is after I had been
doing this work for three orfour years in a more general
personal and professionaldevelopment frame, I couldn't
bring myself to get out of mycar and go into my own house.
(11:58):
I was thinking of what how can Iget out of this?
I can't keep doing this day inand day out, and I don't have an
answer.
But as we all do, I opened thedoor of the car, I trudged back
in the house, and I kept going.
(12:20):
But what I realized was I wasjust searching and hoping and
holding on to this break Icouldn't take.
Like when's the next moment Ican breathe?
When's the next moment I can godo a target run by myself?
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
And I realized I because that's the epitome.
That's that is like we allaspire to do, right?
That is the ultimate vacation.
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
The ultimate vacation.
And literally, I'm not proud ofthese practices or habits that I
had, but I would go get a frozenCoke and a bag of courian
Doritos and sit in the parkinglot and cry and eat them and
drink that.
And then I would have somerelief.
But it it made me think, okay,what are some other ways that I
can find relief right where I'mat?
(13:04):
What are some ways that I canstay at my post yet not
completely unravel?
And so I started to take a lookat those threads.
Where were those moments and allof these really hard things?
Because if you can imagine metrying to survive through COVID
as well, and having a daughterwho has to go to these medical
appointments and PT and OT andall of these things, and how do
(13:26):
I keep myself safe on myimmunosuppressants?
And thankfully, my husband is awonderful partner and was able
to, you know, step in and do alot of that for me.
But I looked for the thread, andthe parts of the relief that I
could kind of cobble togetherwere these small moments of
pause, these small moments ofsitting in an exam room with her
(13:49):
and holding her hand, and beingin the exam room with her and
holding her hand, and that's it.
Not thinking about, okay, whatis this MRI result gonna be?
What is the next prescription ortreatment she might need to
know?
It's being where your feet arebreathing.
I know that that's so likecliche.
(14:10):
But that's what started to turnthings for me when I realized
that relief begins with a pauseand resilience doesn't start
with more strength, it beginswith a pause.
So not only was I finding reliefin those pause moments, those
presence moments, but I also wasstarting to strengthen my
(14:32):
resilience and my prosiliencefor moving forward.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
Were there some signs in your body that you
could feel that you wereignoring?
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
Yes.
Where do we start?
Um well here, tightness.
Sorry, yes, my heart and mychest.
Yeah, tightness.
Um swirling thoughts when mostlyI don't have swirling thoughts,
but those were increasing.
So uh a lot of headaches, um,tightness.
(15:02):
Um feeling almost disconnectedeven from my body.
That was a sign.
So, and then of course, uh, whenI talk about the anxiety, also
then physically manifesting intome not being able to eat without
feeling sick.
I'd eat, I'd be in a fetalposition on the bed.
My daughter would be in her roomneeding help because she was
(15:22):
sick from a treatment, right?
But I couldn't get up and helpher.
I I wasn't the mom I wanted tobe.
And so all of those I couldn'tthat you wanted to be.
No, I couldn't.
And and I accept that and Iunderstand that, and I don't
beat myself up for it now.
But in the moment, of course Iwas, because I think society and
(15:44):
my own pressure on myself mademe think that I needed to do it
all in order to deserve a break.
When in actuality, just showingup.
I mean, we don't need to doanything in order to deserve a
break.
We deserve that for ourselves.
Just being here on earth, we'reallowed to do that for
ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
So this is so you discovered theconcept of prosilience during
your caregiving journey.
So you mentioned that there werefour key blocks that that go
towards presilience.
Can you tell us what those are?
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
Sure.
Well, the first one is calmyourself.
Okay, so you're meeting achallenge, you calm yourself.
That's where some of the pausepractices that I share come in.
Um it's the nervous systemregulation, it's being where
your feet are, it's coming backinto yourself so that fear isn't
(16:38):
driving your next buildingblock, which is choosing the
strategy in which you want tomeet the challenge.
When you have this challengefacing you, do you want to
accept it and adapt?
Do you want to reframe it?
Or is there a way that you canchange it?
Once you choose that strategy,and so you have sort of your
(16:59):
guiding light, like you havesomething that you can focus on
and not let everything keepswirling, then you engage one of
your seven resilience musclesthat we're all born with.
Some of them take more energy toengage.
And so a lot of times there willbe key ones that we um fall back
on.
I'm doing the air quotes fallback on, but it it's not a bad
(17:20):
thing.
Those are just the strong onesthat we have.
But there are others availableto us that we can strengthen,
and those resilience muscles arepositivity, confidence,
creativity, connection,priorities, structure, and
(17:43):
experimenting.
And then one of the I mentionedit at last, but it's actually
one that I work on first withpeople, really, is learning to
manage your personal energy.
Because human energy fuelsresilience.
And if we don't have an energystore in our physical, mental,
emotional, and spiritualenergies, we could have the
(18:04):
strongest resilience muscles.
We wouldn't be able to accessthem and engage them as
effectively as we'd like to tomove through a challenge.
And so when I think about myselfsitting in my car, not being
able to get out of the car andgo into my house right away.
I think about that all the womenin the are tired.
(18:25):
I think about all of the energythat was inside of me was
draining, and I didn't know howto find the leaks and plug them
and start refilling them so thatI could access that resilience
that everyone thought I had andI did have, but I just wasn't
engaging it or accessing iteffectively or efficiently.
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
Just because you're getting back up doesn't mean
you've helped yourself in anyway.
No, it's like you're becausethere's still other work to do.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
Right.
And that's why I I really hit onlearning to manage your personal
energy because when we can takestock of that even on a daily
basis, and it's not all gonna befull all the time, it's kind of
talking about uh, you know, eventhe the work-life balance myth,
which is more which I believe islike a slice of pie, uh, a piece
(19:16):
of pie, you know, a whole pieand then slices of them.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Yeah.
Some slices are bigger thanothers.
SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
And at different times of the year, in different
seasons of your life.
And so when I start working withorganizations on supporting
their community of familycaregivers, when I start working
with individual familycaregivers, we start with
building block one of calmingyourself, those pauses, and then
learning to manage your personalenergy so that you have the fuel
(19:45):
to support yourself in the otherareas so you can strengthen and
keep moving through challengeswithout falling down.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
So, what are some of the common ways that we
unknowingly drain ourselves?
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
Some of these are going to sound really cliche,
and I hate saying them because Idon't sometimes like to practice
them either.
But um, the physical piece,sleep hygiene.
Do you look at your phone, youknow, an hour before you go to
bed, or do you shut it off sothat your mind can decompress?
So that's actually draining twoof your personal energies.
(20:20):
It's draining that physicalpiece, but it's also draining
that mental piece because yourthoughts can get spinning and
turning and not allow you tosleep.
So that's affecting two of them.
It's probably affecting all ofthem because they're so all
interconnected.
Um, I would say the the mentalpiece, one thing I share a lot
is the um myth of multitasking.
(20:42):
And I think that's beingdiscussed more and more lately,
which I think is great.
When you are multitasking, ifyou go from one task to another,
it can take as much as 20minutes to get back to the first
task that you're working on.
And so that is completelydraining your mental energy.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
Because you're always having to remember to go
back to that first task andyou're this mental list of
things that you're wanting to dois constantly running.
SPEAKER_01 (21:06):
Yeah.
And so one way to do that ismonotask.
Um, or if you really love theidea of multitasking and it
makes you feel like you'reaccomplishing more, uh, maybe
write some of those things downso you don't hold them in your
mind and drain that mental list.
Um, other things with the thephysical piece would be not
(21:27):
taking time to get away fromsome of the work that we do
here, uh, you know, in front ofour computer, um, running from
here to there.
Where can you stop and take amoment and just um regulate your
central nervous system?
Where can you breathe and remindyourself that you're safe uh
even though you feel extremelybusy?
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
What are some strategies that we can use to
start plugging up some of theseenergy energy drains?
SPEAKER_01 (21:54):
Sure.
Well, I would think let's goback to the um sleep hygiene
piece.
So one of the first plugs wouldbe make an agreement with
yourself to put the phone down,to not be in front of a screen,
or I don't know, maybe if youare wear some of the blue
blocker sunglasses, uh, to sothat your your brain is not
(22:15):
affected by that blue light.
But make one conscious decisionthat can help plug one leak.
Sleep hat hygiene.
For me, is I have a verydifficult time putting that
phone down.
So what I do try to do is uh setan extra 30 minutes before I
really want to try to startwinding down and do my scrolling
(22:37):
then, and then try to let my mymind calm so that my body can
calm and really get the sleepthat it needs to restore itself.
SPEAKER_00 (22:48):
I do have a tensive scrolling before going to bed
and checking in on everythingum, you know, a couple minutes
before.
But yeah the last thing I alwaysdo is I turn on this um, these
like binaural beats.
Yeah, kind of these thesedifferent sounds and just the
kind of this relaxing music.
I put it on every night.
I have a timer so that it turnsoff automatically after 45
(23:10):
minutes.
And it really just it's like ittriggers my brain.
Okay, this is decompressiontime, and um, it's almost
instantaneous how how quickly mybrain now shuts down when when I
hear that music, and it's greatfor like meditating and it and
it helps me undo everything thatI've done in the last 45 minutes
(23:31):
by by scrolling on my phone.
So yeah, it's a great, it'sgreat practice before going to
bed just just to kind of be withyourself.
I guess that's meditation.
SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
It is.
I love I love that, and I do usesome of those same, you know,
strategies myself.
And you can pick differentbinaural beats, you know, one
healing, one that's you know,calming anxiety, one that's what
is um, I don't know if I likethis one.
I I get really good sleep aroundit, but I'm kind of worried
about the fact that I may not bedreaming because there's one
that's called like dreamlesssleep.
(24:03):
I'm like, oh, okay.
But I think I think sleep anddreaming really helps our our
mind and our brain make sense ofwhat happened during the day.
So I don't want that everynight.
Um, but yes, definitely.
I I love that suggestion.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
One of the messages that you talked about was
starting with a pause, andthat's to help build resilience.
So why is pausing so hard forhigh achieving women?
SPEAKER_01 (24:26):
My opinion is, and one, because I've lived it, and
two, because I've um observedit, is that we believe we need
to earn our rest.
And so we push.
Like, am I good enough now?
Did I do enough today to earnthis?
Am I good enough now?
We are enough.
We're enough.
(24:48):
And and that's where I thinkthese pause practices can really
come into helping people seethat and not be so performative
and accept ourselves for who weare, how we are, doing what we
can, where we're at with what wehave.
Just taking that pause andbreathing, coming back into our
humanness and our body andrecognizing that we're enough.
(25:12):
Is it that you you got out ofbed today?
That's enough.
If you're the load that you'recarrying is heavy and it's
difficult to interact withothers, that's okay.
What can you do to pause andacknowledge how you're feeling
and then move from there in away that isn't dysregulating and
it isn't performative and itisn't pushing ourselves.
(25:33):
It's that guilt of I didn't doenough.
I don't deserve this when inactuality we do.
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
We do.
I've always had this work now,play later mentality.
But the problem is that there'salways work to do.
And so that play never reallycomes.
My former spouse was kind oflike a play now, work later
type, which you know, it itcreated a lot of tension and
jealousy on my part because Iwould see him resting and I'd be
(26:05):
like, why can't I rest?
I've got all this stuff to do.
But in truth, there was therewas some jealousy there, and I
wish I could have rested, but Itend to fill up my time with so
many things.
And some of that isperfectionism, right?
Like the house always needed tobe clean, everything needed to
be done well.
And so I would put all thesestandards and all these
(26:27):
responsibilities on myself thatprobably didn't need to happen,
but as a result, that playtime,that relaxation time, that rest
time never really seemed tocome.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
Yeah.
And I totally resonate withthat.
I think one thing that my kidneydisease did for me and it being
so young, and and my mom haspointed this out to me quite a
bit, is that I'm really good atresting because my body needed
it.
And thankfully, I carried thatforward for quite a bit.
(26:57):
I think until I started tryingto climb the corporate ladder
because that's what I thought Iwas supposed to do, even if it
wasn't what I wanted to do.
I love the fact that you're ableto look back and say, yeah, that
that was self-imposed.
But I also feel like you'reaccepting of that and you're not
like beating yourself up, andthat will allow you to find more
(27:17):
time to play now.
SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
You've said that it's all about managing your
personal energy.
And that's the key to burnoutrelief.
So it's not necessarily findingmore time in a day, it's
managing your personal energy.
So how can we begin to shift outof the, well, just manage your
schedule better mindset?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:37):
You know, and I don't think it has to be an
either or.
I also love to live in the bothand.
Is there a way to manage timeand manage our personal energy?
Is there a way for us to be moreintentional with the energy that
we put into some of ourschedules?
Is there a way for us to show upin a powerful way in our
(28:00):
different um time managementtools or different meetings or
all of the responsibilities thatwe have?
But I do believe it all startswith an awareness of our
personal energy, our physical,mental, emotional, and spiritual
energies that can be drained andthey also can be refilled.
So it's not like you're going tohave a perfect piece of a
(28:23):
perfect pie, even with ourenergies.
When I I work with clients, I doum an energy map.
We take a look at, okay, whereare you right now in each of
these energies?
Do you see a pattern?
Is there something that you knowis draining you here?
Can we plug that so that you canfill that tank a little bit more
and it'll help your emotionalenergy?
(28:44):
When we're tired, it's very easyfor most of us to become a
little more emotional becausewe're working so hard to bring
that physical energy up, becausethat's the one that really,
really strikes us right awaythat we don't have the extra
energy to manage our emotions.
So that's where we might findourselves snapping at our
(29:05):
family, snapping at colleagues.
And so just being aware of whereyou're at with each with each of
those energies is the firststep.
And then from there, like wetalked about plugging the
physical energy drain with thesleep sleep hygiene.
Then you can figure out okay,this is one act that I can
change that's going to actuallyplug that, and then I can start
(29:26):
pouring some energy into there,like going outside for a quick
um breath of fresh air.
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
Can we talk a little bit about caregiver burnout?
You know, you had your daughterwho had some medical needs.
I have children of my own.
I also live with my nine yearold mother in law who has
dementia and her own medicalneeds.
So we are kind of in thesandwich generation, right?
(29:54):
We're caring for our ownchildren who have needs, we're
caring for older generations whohave needs.
Can be really, really stressful.
So, do you have any advice forpeople who are caregivers?
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
I do.
I first start with let's begentle with ourselves.
Because as you just described,there are how many different
quote unquote lives that you'reliving right now?
You have caring for yourchildren, caring for your
mother-in-law, you have yourwork.
Sorry, guys, we're not going tobe able to be 100% in all those
areas all the time.
And if we try to be, we're goingto fall down.
(30:29):
We're going to burn out.
We're not going to be able tosupport ourselves so that we can
support others.
So that's where the idea of umI'm going to say work life, but
this is going to be like workcaregiving for our elders,
caregiving for our childrenneeds to become a balance in the
(30:51):
way that things shift andchange.
Like one day, your childrenmight need a quarter piece of
the pie.
And so you can allow them thatand then give yourself
permission to know you're notgoing to be able to also give,
you know, three quarters of thepie to your mother-in-law and
(31:13):
then somewhere sneak in someextra time for work.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
And a piece of the pie for myself.
But sometimes it seems like onepiece of the pie is always
significantly bigger than theothers.
So is it just a matter offinding a way for that piece of
pie to be smaller?
So let's say you're caregivingfor one specific person who
takes up a lot of your time anda lot of your energy, but you're
still expected to go to work andtake care of your kids.
(31:39):
So the piece of pie for yourselfis getting smaller and smaller
by the day.
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Or is the piece of the pie for yourself one of the
main ingredients that make upall of the pie?
So when I talk about taking thebreak that you can't because you
can't get away, what are thosepause practices you can do
throughout your day that buildto help make up the whole
foundation of the pie?
Maybe it's the crust underneath.
(32:06):
Is it um going to an appointmentwith your mother-in-law and not
thinking about work or thechildren being in that room?
And as you're there, rememberingto breathe and regulate and know
that you only need to be in thatspace right there.
You monotask in that space rightthere.
(32:28):
Because if you're in all ofthose places, if you're in all
of those pieces of pie, you'renot doing any justice to what
you're trying to do in that oneroom.
So that's where I I experiencedthis um this past spring, where
I took a step, I I I dipped atoe into the sandwich
(32:49):
generation.
My um parents live severalstates away.
And my father had a medicalemergency, and my daughter also
was dealing with um a wholeother diagnosis here at home.
And I needed to decide whatneeds my attention most right
now because I do have a greatsupport system here at home for
(33:09):
my daughter.
So I felt comfortable.
And if I wouldn't have, I wouldhave found something, right?
So that I could go to this moreemergent situation and help my
mom and dad stay away.
And I found myself starting todrift back home while there was
something very important goingon right in front of me.
(33:30):
And I remembered to like, okay,I'm gonna sit here next to my
dad's hospital bed as he comesout of anesthesia, and I'm gonna
hold his hand and we're gonnabreathe.
And he wasn't aware, but startedmirroring my breathing back.
I was mostly doing it formyself, but it also helped him.
SPEAKER_00 (33:49):
So you're there in that moment, you're not thinking
about everything else that youshould be doing or that maybe
needs your attention.
You're right there and you'retaking care of yourself by doing
breathing exercises there inthat moment.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
Right.
You can take care of yourselfand be present for your loved
one at the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
I like that idea.
So a lot of us feel like we'renever doing enough, whether that
be at work, at home, with ourkids, for our parents.
So, what would you say to anywoman out there or any person
out there who's exhausted fromtrying to be everything for
everyone?
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
What is your definition of enough?
Why are you trying to beeverything for everyone in your
life?
What do you want in this moment?
We can't control thecircumstances of our lives for
the most part.
But we can control how we showup in it.
And even if you were everythingto everyone in the past, doesn't
(34:47):
mean in this moment you need todo it again.
unknown (34:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:50):
So today's episode, um, we're gonna be calling it
all all the women in me aretired.
So what does that phrase mean toyou personally?
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
When I look back at it, I mean, I saw this meme
years ago.
And it was this um figure layingon a ground on the ground, and
it just said, all the people inme and t are tired.
I'm like, yes.
And then I applied it to myselfwhen I couldn't get out of my
car and go into my home, when Iwas laying on my bed in a fetal
position, like all of me.
This isn't physical exhaustion.
(35:23):
This is every piece of me isexhausted, and I don't know how
I'm going to move forward.
And when I found the managingyour personal energy, I was
like, oh, that's it.
So it could also be tired.
All of the energies in me arebeing drained, right?
But all the women in me aretired.
The physical part of me, themental, the emotional, the
(35:45):
spiritual part of me, theworking mother part of me, the
entrepreneur and business ownerpart of me, the loving daughter
and the caring sister and thesupportive wife.
All of those women in me aretired.
And I can attend to them bymanaging my personal energy.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
And you created the care well circle for family
caregivers.
So, as part of this, you'regoing to be giving the listeners
like two free weeks, I think, tobe part of the care well circle.
SPEAKER_01 (36:13):
It's a restorative, video centric platform.
It's something that I wished Ihad.
I know that's also cliche thatpeople say, I created something
I wished I had, but it truly is.
When I was living in thehospital with my daughter after
a partial brain tumor resectionduring COVID for a month, like I
tried to go to these supportgroups online and all of these
things.
(36:33):
And I was reading all of theseFacebook support group text
threads, which were great, but Iwas craving face-to-face
interaction.
And I couldn't get that inperson.
And I wanted to be able to go inanytime.
Like I can't make a Zoom callright now because doctors are
rounding.
Like I wanted to be in thatsupport group, but I couldn't.
And so this is a 24-7 umrestorative video platform where
(36:57):
you can come and you can quietlyobserve, or you can practice the
pause practices I post onMondays, or you can come in and
look at the share and supportposts on Wednesdays, on Fridays,
there are resources, and um,we're going to have monthly
experts coming in for lives oncea month.
There's a lunchtime supportgroup the second Tuesday of
(37:19):
every month.
Um, the fourth Thursday, there'sone in the evening.
And if you can't make it, that'sokay.
There's recordings.
But I wanted a place wherepeople could have touch points
and they could see faces, andthat's Carewell Circle.
SPEAKER_00 (37:35):
Is there a like a code or something that you need
to use to get no, no?
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
There's actually if you go to ProzilienceCoach.com
forward slash carewell circle,it should take you to the
landing page that allows you tosign up.
And there's a two-week pause, Icall it the two-week pause
included to see if this issomething that will support you
because I don't want to add moreto your plate.
I want this to be a place ofrespite and relief.
(38:03):
And if that's not it for you, nohard feelings.
You know, you can you can departafter the two weeks.
And and if not, then you'reyou're welcome to join us each
month.
SPEAKER_00 (38:13):
Amazing.
That's quite the gift.
Jen, I love quotes.
Is there a particular quote thatyou love and that you'd like to
share with us?
SPEAKER_01 (38:20):
Yes, but first I'm gonna take down a quote I don't
care for.
Everything happens for a reason.
That's really hard for me.
Um, I don't see why mydaughter's brain tumor happened,
at least in the moment.
Um, I I have learned so muchfrom her and her grace and her
resilience.
And she's actually theinspiration for the work that I
(38:42):
do what I do right now.
So the quote that I turn to ispain is inevitable, suffering is
optional.
And that that quote isattributed to a lot of different
people.
I'm not sure if anyone reallyknows where it came from, but
I'm just gonna uh share thisthat it doesn't matter to me who
first said it because during myfirst kidney transplant, I
(39:06):
learned it firsthand from thekids at children's hospital.
These kids were riding theirtricycles as they were getting
their infusions with theirparents like running down the
hallway with their poles behindthem.
And I was like, Who am I to layin this bed and say poor me all
of the time when these kids areshowing me what it means to
(39:27):
live?
Yeah.
So that's the suffering isoptional.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
The pain is there, it's it's there, it's always
gonna be there.
But I think it's how weinterpret that pain and what we
make that pain how it makes usfeel, and and how we internalize
that, that really changes ourexperience.
Jen, where can listeners findyou?
SPEAKER_01 (39:45):
My website, prosiliencecoach.com.
I should have picked an easierum, you know, website to spell,
but it's P R O S I L I N C E dotcom.
Um, there you can find you knowideas and resources for
caregivers.
There is the Care Well Circlesign up.
Um, I also have a page there fororganizations who I also like to
(40:08):
work with, um organizations whohave a community of family
caregivers to go in and helpthem learn some of these um
strategies so that they cansupport them in a more
sustainable way as well.
I'm also on Instagram andLinkedIn.
SPEAKER_00 (40:22):
I'm gonna be putting all of those links in the show
notes.
So if anybody wants to go andsee you, they can they can find
you there.
SPEAKER_01 (40:29):
I'd be very happy to see some smiling faces and to
help support them.
SPEAKER_00 (40:35):
I love that.
So, Jen, thank you so much forbeing here and for sharing so
openly with us.
Your perspective is sovalidating and so needed,
especially for you know peoplein the audience who feel like
they're doing it all but stillfeeling like they're falling
behind.
Yeah.
And I know that a lot of peopleare gonna walk away from this
episode with a little bit morehope and a whole lot more
(40:56):
clarity.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
Well, thank you so much for sharing this with your
listeners.
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
And thanks to all of you who are hanging out with us
on Paging Doctor Mom.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, then go ahead and hit
the subscribe button and followso you don't miss what's coming
up next.
And if you want to keep theconversation going, you can find
me over on Instagram at drAngela Downey.
I'd love to hear from you.
So take care for now.
You are doing better than youthink.
(41:21):
Thanks for spending time with metoday.
I hope something in this episoderesonated with you.
If it did, hit follow,subscribe, or share it with
someone who needs to hear ittoday.
The codependent doctor is notmedical advice and doesn't
include speaking to yourhealthcare provider.
If you're in a crisis, please goto the nearest ER or call 911 or
reach out to your local mentalhealth helpline.
(41:42):
I'll be back here next week withmore support, stories, and
strategies because we're healingtogether.
If you've ever felt like you're carrying the weight
of your family, your work, yourhealth, and somehow still
expected to smile through itall, this episode is for you.
Today we're talking about whatburnout really feels like when
you're a caregiver and stilltrying to be human.
My guest, Jen Fredericks, bringsa deeply personal and incredibly
insightful take on resilience.
Not the push harder kind, butthe kind that begins with
(00:22):
something radical, a pause.
We're getting into how to manageyour energy and not just your
time, how to stop leaking yourenergy everywhere, and why it's
okay not to be everything toeveryone.
Welcome to the CodependentDoctor, a podcast where we
unpack the messy, beautifuljourney of healing from
codependency.
If you're burned out from peoplepleasing, stuck in unhealthy
(00:44):
patterns, or just tired ofputting yourself last, you're in
the right place.
I'm Dr.
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, and I'm
here to help you reconnect toyour authentic self.
One honest conversation at atime.
Here we go.
Hello to all my wonderfulpodcast listeners.
I'm Dr.
Angela Downey and you'relistening to Codependent Doctor.
(01:05):
Today's episode is a little bitdifferent.
As some of you may know, I havea second podcast called Paging
Dr.
Mom.
I've just interviewed a guestthat I loved, and I think that
her message would be great forCodependent Doctor podcasts.
So I'm going to be sharing ithere as well.
You might hear me refer tomothers and women a lot.
That's just because my otherpodcast is geared towards female
(01:28):
physicians.
However, please know thateverything that we share today
is good for everyone, whetheryou're male, female, mother,
father.
And I really think that hermessage is great and that you're
going to benefit from it.
So please forgive me for that.
And I do mention Paging Dr.
Mom in the episode, but I thinkthat you're going to really
benefit as well.
So I hope you enjoy.
(01:49):
I'm going to introduce you totoday's guest.
Jen Fredericks is a personalresilience practitioner and
prosilience coach who helpsfamily caregivers move from
burnout to balance.
She's a two-time kidneytransplant recipient and a
longtime caregiver for herdaughter with a brain tumor.
Jen brings a rare dualperspective to the table, a
patient and a caregiver.
(02:11):
She's the founder of theCareWell Circle and teaches a
proactive resilience methodcalled prosilience, designed for
those feeling overwhelmed,depleted, or stuck.
And her message, that realresilience starts with a pause,
not pushing harder.
I am so excited to have Jen onthe show today.
She's someone who truly gets theinvisible labor that so many of
us are carrying, not justbecause she works in this space
(02:33):
professionally, but becauseshe's lived it.
She has this incredible way ofcombining real life experience
with practical, research-backedtools, and she's gonna leave you
with insights that are actuallyuseful, not just inspirational.
And I'm really grateful thatshe's here with us today.
Hi Jen, it's so great to haveyou on Paging Doctor Mom today.
How are you doing?
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
I'm really well.
Thanks for having me today, Dr.
Angela.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
I'm really glad that we're finally getting to
connect.
This is great.
So maybe we can start by havingyou introduce yourself and tell
us about your journey tobecoming a prosilience coach.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Sure.
I mean, I think it was decadesin the making, actually.
Um so as you mentioned, I'm apresilience coach.
I'm also a personal resiliencepractitioner, and I primarily
support family caregivers whoare caring for those with
chronic illness or otherdifficult illnesses.
Um, I also have worked incorporate marketing for 16 years
(03:24):
before I started coaching.
And so when I heard thedescription of your podcast and
listened to episodes, I'm like,okay, yeah, this all resonates
with me very, very much.
I think I really started tolearn about resilience, which is
part of pro-resilience, whichwe'll talk about, when I
(03:47):
received my first kidneytransplant in 1993 when I was 16
years old.
And it just grew from there.
I then adopted a daughter withmy husband in 2008.
And in 2015, she was diagnosedwith a low-grade brain tumor.
And at that point, I was workingat Harley Davidson, a motor
(04:09):
company in their marketingdepartment.
I was managing my own health.
Uh, I had at that point had mysecond kidney transplant in
2012.
My first one from my dad justkind of went, uh, and I'm done.
And so learning to manage and doit without apologizing for the
ambition that I wanted to reachwhile I was still managing my
own chronic illness, while I wasin my career, while I was also
(04:33):
caring for my daughter who wasjust diagnosed with the brain
tumor, really started to weighon me.
But also, I didn't want to giveup all of those dreams I held
and the goals I had for myselfbecause of circumstances that
were outside of my control.
And so I did, I think what mostwomen do who are high achievers
(04:55):
and wanting to reach manydifferent goals in different
parts of their lives, I keptpushing.
I kept pushing.
And I pushed so hard until mybody said, You haven't been
listening to my subtle cues.
So here we go.
And my um anxiety around notbeing able to support my
daughter the way that I wantedto, through some emotional and
(05:17):
mental behavior changes afterher diagnosis.
Um, my body said, Yeah, um,we're not gonna eat without
feeling sick afterwards.
Um, we're not going to be ableto stay up and watch TV with our
husband because you're soexhausted and drained from
everything that you push throughduring the day.
(05:38):
And I dropped down to a hundredpounds because I couldn't eat
without getting sick.
And I finally was like, wait aminute.
All of these people are tellingme that I'm resilient, but do
they not see?
What does that mean?
I don't understand how I canfeel this badly physically,
mentally, emotionally,spiritually, but everyone else
(05:59):
is saying that I'm doing such agood job.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
Or saying, I don't know how you do it.
I don't know.
You're like, yeah, I'm not.
You're melting on the inside.
You're like, I don't feel likeI'm handling it all.
Like, what are you seeing that Ican't see?
SPEAKER_01 (06:13):
Exactly.
So that led me on a whim,decided maybe I'll try this
coaching thing.
And it was a lifeline.
I was doing it for my career,but I was really doing it for
me.
And I I healed some and Istarted looking into well, what
do they mean I'm resilient?
And I started researchingcompassion, fatigue, and you
(06:34):
know, uh compassion, resilience,and compassion.
And I ran across prosilience,which I'm sure we'll talk about
a little bit later, whichactually really helped me heal
and not only helped me in thechaos of the mess that I was in,
but helped me find relief inthat mess.
But it also was strengthening myresilience for this ongoing
(06:56):
marathon of my kidney disease,of my daughter's brain tumor
journey, and also of me thenbecoming an entrepreneur and
helping others who are in thesame place that I was.
SPEAKER_00 (07:09):
What is the difference between resilience
and prosilience?
SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
They're very closely related.
Uh I the reframe I like isbecause a lot of people think
about resilience as um fallingdown and then pulling yourself
back up or bouncing back.
And my thought is why do we needto work so hard to pull
ourselves back up if we don'tneed to fall at all, or if we
don't need to fall so far?
SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
And that's where presilience has helped me, those
the proactive resilience piece.
So it's taking the time to bepresent and intentional with
different parts of ourresilience.
And there are four buildingblocks of pro-resilience that I
work on with people.
Let's strengthen those byfinding relief in the moment and
also preparing ourselves to bemore sustainable in the future.
SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
So pro-resilience is really just steps that you can
take to make yourself wellenough so that when you fall,
you don't fall as hard and it'sa little bit easier for you to
get back up after.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
Right.
So when I start working withclients, um, we usually take a
look at where they're at intheir baseline resilience and we
get them back up to thatbaseline, help find some
stability, some homeostasis.
And then from there, we startbuilding other pieces of our
building blocks andstrengthening them so that the
next crisis that comes, the nextchange that comes, the next
(08:34):
uncertainty that we're facing,because we know that that's
guaranteed in life, we can catchourselves and we have a
strategic plan of how to movethrough and meet that challenge
and that uncertainty.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
I know for myself, when I was starting to feel
really burnt out and I just keptpushing through, I started
getting sicker and sicker andsicker.
And I'm like, I can just powerthrough this.
And then I would just get sickeragain.
And I just, it like it neverended.
And there was all these signs inmy body telling me, you need to
change something, right?
(09:08):
Something needs to change.
You're not well and you can'tjust keep pushing through this.
And I see so many of mycolleagues being nervous about
calling in sick.
Yeah.
Um, even though they can likehardly drag themselves out of
bed because they feel eitherguilty for their patients or
guilty that they're putting thisextra stress and strain on their
colleagues or the medicalsystem.
(09:29):
So it's it's really important toget ahead of these things and
make sure that you're reallytaking good care of yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
I'm so glad you mentioned that.
And I'm actually I've beeninvited into several um health
systems, nonprofits, foundationsin order to work on one of the
strategic building blocks ofprosilience, which I love and I
usually start with all of myclients in the organizations, is
the managing personal energypiece.
And so when we're able to startdoing that, it's easier to
(09:58):
fulfill our heart-based servicein whatever your profession's
in, where you are serving andcaring for others, without, you
know, prescribing to some of themore performative self-care
things that we're always uhasked to do.
Like these energy practices areactually ones that will help you
find relief in the moment andalso help you refill your, you
(10:24):
know, your gas tank for the nextmoment.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
I definitely want to get into those four building
blocks.
Um I think that'll be reallyimportant.
But first, I just want to talklike, were there any moments
that brought you like to yourknees?
And how did that shift your viewof resilience?
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
Yes.
I'm thinking of like three rightnow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:42):
But not that having two kidney transplants and a
daughter who was sick, you know,isn't enough.
But like you, you obviously youtried to get through all that,
but were there some momentswhere where you realized I just
can't keep doing this?
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
Yeah.
And I think that's one thingthat really blindsided me was
having three decades of my ownchronic illness management,
being very familiar with themedical system, being very, very
comfortable advocating formyself and and for my daughter
in the medical setting.
Then to have these emotional andmental and behavioral things
come up, I didn't know how tosupport her because that's not
(11:17):
how I processed my my medicalexperience or, you know, nothing
bad happened to me during mytransplants, but it's all
medical trauma.
These are huge things.
And I know that her diagnosisand the week in the hospital
there and all of those thingswere actually also medical
traumas for her because she hadnever had anything like that
happen.
(11:37):
Um, but what's really standingout to me is after I had been
doing this work for three orfour years in a more general
personal and professionaldevelopment frame, I couldn't
bring myself to get out of mycar and go into my own house.
(11:58):
I was thinking of what how can Iget out of this?
I can't keep doing this day inand day out, and I don't have an
answer.
But as we all do, I opened thedoor of the car, I trudged back
in the house, and I kept going.
(12:20):
But what I realized was I wasjust searching and hoping and
holding on to this break Icouldn't take.
Like when's the next moment Ican breathe?
When's the next moment I can godo a target run by myself?
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
And I realized I because that's the epitome.
That's that is like we allaspire to do, right?
That is the ultimate vacation.
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
The ultimate vacation.
And literally, I'm not proud ofthese practices or habits that I
had, but I would go get a frozenCoke and a bag of courian
Doritos and sit in the parkinglot and cry and eat them and
drink that.
And then I would have somerelief.
But it it made me think, okay,what are some other ways that I
can find relief right where I'mat?
(13:04):
What are some ways that I canstay at my post yet not
completely unravel?
And so I started to take a lookat those threads.
Where were those moments and allof these really hard things?
Because if you can imagine metrying to survive through COVID
as well, and having a daughterwho has to go to these medical
appointments and PT and OT andall of these things, and how do
(13:26):
I keep myself safe on myimmunosuppressants?
And thankfully, my husband is awonderful partner and was able
to, you know, step in and do alot of that for me.
But I looked for the thread, andthe parts of the relief that I
could kind of cobble togetherwere these small moments of
pause, these small moments ofsitting in an exam room with her
(13:49):
and holding her hand, and beingin the exam room with her and
holding her hand, and that's it.
Not thinking about, okay, whatis this MRI result gonna be?
What is the next prescription ortreatment she might need to
know?
It's being where your feet arebreathing.
I know that that's so likecliche.
(14:10):
But that's what started to turnthings for me when I realized
that relief begins with a pauseand resilience doesn't start
with more strength, it beginswith a pause.
So not only was I finding reliefin those pause moments, those
presence moments, but I also wasstarting to strengthen my
(14:32):
resilience and my prosiliencefor moving forward.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
Were there some signs in your body that you
could feel that you wereignoring?
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
Yes.
Where do we start?
Um well here, tightness.
Sorry, yes, my heart and mychest.
Yeah, tightness.
Um swirling thoughts when mostlyI don't have swirling thoughts,
but those were increasing.
So uh a lot of headaches, um,tightness.
(15:02):
Um feeling almost disconnectedeven from my body.
That was a sign.
So, and then of course, uh, whenI talk about the anxiety, also
then physically manifesting intome not being able to eat without
feeling sick.
I'd eat, I'd be in a fetalposition on the bed.
My daughter would be in her roomneeding help because she was
(15:22):
sick from a treatment, right?
But I couldn't get up and helpher.
I I wasn't the mom I wanted tobe.
And so all of those I couldn'tthat you wanted to be.
No, I couldn't.
And and I accept that and Iunderstand that, and I don't
beat myself up for it now.
But in the moment, of course Iwas, because I think society and
(15:44):
my own pressure on myself mademe think that I needed to do it
all in order to deserve a break.
When in actuality, just showingup.
I mean, we don't need to doanything in order to deserve a
break.
We deserve that for ourselves.
Just being here on earth, we'reallowed to do that for
ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
So this is so you discovered theconcept of prosilience during
your caregiving journey.
So you mentioned that there werefour key blocks that that go
towards presilience.
Can you tell us what those are?
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
Sure.
Well, the first one is calmyourself.
Okay, so you're meeting achallenge, you calm yourself.
That's where some of the pausepractices that I share come in.
Um it's the nervous systemregulation, it's being where
your feet are, it's coming backinto yourself so that fear isn't
(16:38):
driving your next buildingblock, which is choosing the
strategy in which you want tomeet the challenge.
When you have this challengefacing you, do you want to
accept it and adapt?
Do you want to reframe it?
Or is there a way that you canchange it?
Once you choose that strategy,and so you have sort of your
(16:59):
guiding light, like you havesomething that you can focus on
and not let everything keepswirling, then you engage one of
your seven resilience musclesthat we're all born with.
Some of them take more energy toengage.
And so a lot of times there willbe key ones that we um fall back
on.
I'm doing the air quotes fallback on, but it it's not a bad
(17:20):
thing.
Those are just the strong onesthat we have.
But there are others availableto us that we can strengthen,
and those resilience muscles arepositivity, confidence,
creativity, connection,priorities, structure, and
(17:43):
experimenting.
And then one of the I mentionedit at last, but it's actually
one that I work on first withpeople, really, is learning to
manage your personal energy.
Because human energy fuelsresilience.
And if we don't have an energystore in our physical, mental,
emotional, and spiritualenergies, we could have the
(18:04):
strongest resilience muscles.
We wouldn't be able to accessthem and engage them as
effectively as we'd like to tomove through a challenge.
And so when I think about myselfsitting in my car, not being
able to get out of the car andgo into my house right away.
I think about that all the womenin the are tired.
(18:25):
I think about all of the energythat was inside of me was
draining, and I didn't know howto find the leaks and plug them
and start refilling them so thatI could access that resilience
that everyone thought I had andI did have, but I just wasn't
engaging it or accessing iteffectively or efficiently.
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
Just because you're getting back up doesn't mean
you've helped yourself in anyway.
No, it's like you're becausethere's still other work to do.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
Right.
And that's why I I really hit onlearning to manage your personal
energy because when we can takestock of that even on a daily
basis, and it's not all gonna befull all the time, it's kind of
talking about uh, you know, eventhe the work-life balance myth,
which is more which I believe islike a slice of pie, uh, a piece
(19:16):
of pie, you know, a whole pieand then slices of them.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Yeah.
Some slices are bigger thanothers.
SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
And at different times of the year, in different
seasons of your life.
And so when I start working withorganizations on supporting
their community of familycaregivers, when I start working
with individual familycaregivers, we start with
building block one of calmingyourself, those pauses, and then
learning to manage your personalenergy so that you have the fuel
(19:45):
to support yourself in the otherareas so you can strengthen and
keep moving through challengeswithout falling down.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
So, what are some of the common ways that we
unknowingly drain ourselves?
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
Some of these are going to sound really cliche,
and I hate saying them because Idon't sometimes like to practice
them either.
But um, the physical piece,sleep hygiene.
Do you look at your phone, youknow, an hour before you go to
bed, or do you shut it off sothat your mind can decompress?
So that's actually draining twoof your personal energies.
(20:20):
It's draining that physicalpiece, but it's also draining
that mental piece because yourthoughts can get spinning and
turning and not allow you tosleep.
So that's affecting two of them.
It's probably affecting all ofthem because they're so all
interconnected.
Um, I would say the the mentalpiece, one thing I share a lot
is the um myth of multitasking.
(20:42):
And I think that's beingdiscussed more and more lately,
which I think is great.
When you are multitasking, ifyou go from one task to another,
it can take as much as 20minutes to get back to the first
task that you're working on.
And so that is completelydraining your mental energy.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
Because you're always having to remember to go
back to that first task andyou're this mental list of
things that you're wanting to dois constantly running.
SPEAKER_01 (21:06):
Yeah.
And so one way to do that ismonotask.
Um, or if you really love theidea of multitasking and it
makes you feel like you'reaccomplishing more, uh, maybe
write some of those things downso you don't hold them in your
mind and drain that mental list.
Um, other things with the thephysical piece would be not
(21:27):
taking time to get away fromsome of the work that we do
here, uh, you know, in front ofour computer, um, running from
here to there.
Where can you stop and take amoment and just um regulate your
central nervous system?
Where can you breathe and remindyourself that you're safe uh
even though you feel extremelybusy?
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
What are some strategies that we can use to
start plugging up some of theseenergy energy drains?
SPEAKER_01 (21:54):
Sure.
Well, I would think let's goback to the um sleep hygiene
piece.
So one of the first plugs wouldbe make an agreement with
yourself to put the phone down,to not be in front of a screen,
or I don't know, maybe if youare wear some of the blue
blocker sunglasses, uh, to sothat your your brain is not
(22:15):
affected by that blue light.
But make one conscious decisionthat can help plug one leak.
Sleep hat hygiene.
For me, is I have a verydifficult time putting that
phone down.
So what I do try to do is uh setan extra 30 minutes before I
really want to try to startwinding down and do my scrolling
(22:37):
then, and then try to let my mymind calm so that my body can
calm and really get the sleepthat it needs to restore itself.
SPEAKER_00 (22:48):
I do have a tensive scrolling before going to bed
and checking in on everythingum, you know, a couple minutes
before.
But yeah the last thing I alwaysdo is I turn on this um, these
like binaural beats.
Yeah, kind of these thesedifferent sounds and just the
kind of this relaxing music.
I put it on every night.
I have a timer so that it turnsoff automatically after 45
(23:10):
minutes.
And it really just it's like ittriggers my brain.
Okay, this is decompressiontime, and um, it's almost
instantaneous how how quickly mybrain now shuts down when when I
hear that music, and it's greatfor like meditating and it and
it helps me undo everything thatI've done in the last 45 minutes
(23:31):
by by scrolling on my phone.
So yeah, it's a great, it'sgreat practice before going to
bed just just to kind of be withyourself.
I guess that's meditation.
SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
It is.
I love I love that, and I do usesome of those same, you know,
strategies myself.
And you can pick differentbinaural beats, you know, one
healing, one that's you know,calming anxiety, one that's what
is um, I don't know if I likethis one.
I I get really good sleep aroundit, but I'm kind of worried
about the fact that I may not bedreaming because there's one
that's called like dreamlesssleep.
(24:03):
I'm like, oh, okay.
But I think I think sleep anddreaming really helps our our
mind and our brain make sense ofwhat happened during the day.
So I don't want that everynight.
Um, but yes, definitely.
I I love that suggestion.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
One of the messages that you talked about was
starting with a pause, andthat's to help build resilience.
So why is pausing so hard forhigh achieving women?
SPEAKER_01 (24:26):
My opinion is, and one, because I've lived it, and
two, because I've um observedit, is that we believe we need
to earn our rest.
And so we push.
Like, am I good enough now?
Did I do enough today to earnthis?
Am I good enough now?
We are enough.
We're enough.
(24:48):
And and that's where I thinkthese pause practices can really
come into helping people seethat and not be so performative
and accept ourselves for who weare, how we are, doing what we
can, where we're at with what wehave.
Just taking that pause andbreathing, coming back into our
humanness and our body andrecognizing that we're enough.
(25:12):
Is it that you you got out ofbed today?
That's enough.
If you're the load that you'recarrying is heavy and it's
difficult to interact withothers, that's okay.
What can you do to pause andacknowledge how you're feeling
and then move from there in away that isn't dysregulating and
it isn't performative and itisn't pushing ourselves.
(25:33):
It's that guilt of I didn't doenough.
I don't deserve this when inactuality we do.
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
We do.
I've always had this work now,play later mentality.
But the problem is that there'salways work to do.
And so that play never reallycomes.
My former spouse was kind oflike a play now, work later
type, which you know, it itcreated a lot of tension and
jealousy on my part because Iwould see him resting and I'd be
(26:05):
like, why can't I rest?
I've got all this stuff to do.
But in truth, there was therewas some jealousy there, and I
wish I could have rested, but Itend to fill up my time with so
many things.
And some of that isperfectionism, right?
Like the house always needed tobe clean, everything needed to
be done well.
And so I would put all thesestandards and all these
(26:27):
responsibilities on myself thatprobably didn't need to happen,
but as a result, that playtime,that relaxation time, that rest
time never really seemed tocome.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
Yeah.
And I totally resonate withthat.
I think one thing that my kidneydisease did for me and it being
so young, and and my mom haspointed this out to me quite a
bit, is that I'm really good atresting because my body needed
it.
And thankfully, I carried thatforward for quite a bit.
(26:57):
I think until I started tryingto climb the corporate ladder
because that's what I thought Iwas supposed to do, even if it
wasn't what I wanted to do.
I love the fact that you're ableto look back and say, yeah, that
that was self-imposed.
But I also feel like you'reaccepting of that and you're not
like beating yourself up, andthat will allow you to find more
(27:17):
time to play now.
SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
You've said that it's all about managing your
personal energy.
And that's the key to burnoutrelief.
So it's not necessarily findingmore time in a day, it's
managing your personal energy.
So how can we begin to shift outof the, well, just manage your
schedule better mindset?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:37):
You know, and I don't think it has to be an
either or.
I also love to live in the bothand.
Is there a way to manage timeand manage our personal energy?
Is there a way for us to be moreintentional with the energy that
we put into some of ourschedules?
Is there a way for us to show upin a powerful way in our
(28:00):
different um time managementtools or different meetings or
all of the responsibilities thatwe have?
But I do believe it all startswith an awareness of our
personal energy, our physical,mental, emotional, and spiritual
energies that can be drained andthey also can be refilled.
So it's not like you're going tohave a perfect piece of a
(28:23):
perfect pie, even with ourenergies.
When I I work with clients, I doum an energy map.
We take a look at, okay, whereare you right now in each of
these energies?
Do you see a pattern?
Is there something that you knowis draining you here?
Can we plug that so that you canfill that tank a little bit more
and it'll help your emotionalenergy?
(28:44):
When we're tired, it's very easyfor most of us to become a
little more emotional becausewe're working so hard to bring
that physical energy up, becausethat's the one that really,
really strikes us right awaythat we don't have the extra
energy to manage our emotions.
So that's where we might findourselves snapping at our
(29:05):
family, snapping at colleagues.
And so just being aware of whereyou're at with each with each of
those energies is the firststep.
And then from there, like wetalked about plugging the
physical energy drain with thesleep sleep hygiene.
Then you can figure out okay,this is one act that I can
change that's going to actuallyplug that, and then I can start
(29:26):
pouring some energy into there,like going outside for a quick
um breath of fresh air.
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
Can we talk a little bit about caregiver burnout?
You know, you had your daughterwho had some medical needs.
I have children of my own.
I also live with my nine yearold mother in law who has
dementia and her own medicalneeds.
So we are kind of in thesandwich generation, right?
(29:54):
We're caring for our ownchildren who have needs, we're
caring for older generations whohave needs.
Can be really, really stressful.
So, do you have any advice forpeople who are caregivers?
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
I do.
I first start with let's begentle with ourselves.
Because as you just described,there are how many different
quote unquote lives that you'reliving right now?
You have caring for yourchildren, caring for your
mother-in-law, you have yourwork.
Sorry, guys, we're not going tobe able to be 100% in all those
areas all the time.
And if we try to be, we're goingto fall down.
(30:29):
We're going to burn out.
We're not going to be able tosupport ourselves so that we can
support others.
So that's where the idea of umI'm going to say work life, but
this is going to be like workcaregiving for our elders,
caregiving for our childrenneeds to become a balance in the
(30:51):
way that things shift andchange.
Like one day, your childrenmight need a quarter piece of
the pie.
And so you can allow them thatand then give yourself
permission to know you're notgoing to be able to also give,
you know, three quarters of thepie to your mother-in-law and
(31:13):
then somewhere sneak in someextra time for work.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
And a piece of the pie for myself.
But sometimes it seems like onepiece of the pie is always
significantly bigger than theothers.
So is it just a matter offinding a way for that piece of
pie to be smaller?
So let's say you're caregivingfor one specific person who
takes up a lot of your time anda lot of your energy, but you're
still expected to go to work andtake care of your kids.
(31:39):
So the piece of pie for yourselfis getting smaller and smaller
by the day.
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Or is the piece of the pie for yourself one of the
main ingredients that make upall of the pie?
So when I talk about taking thebreak that you can't because you
can't get away, what are thosepause practices you can do
throughout your day that buildto help make up the whole
foundation of the pie?
Maybe it's the crust underneath.
(32:06):
Is it um going to an appointmentwith your mother-in-law and not
thinking about work or thechildren being in that room?
And as you're there, rememberingto breathe and regulate and know
that you only need to be in thatspace right there.
You monotask in that space rightthere.
(32:28):
Because if you're in all ofthose places, if you're in all
of those pieces of pie, you'renot doing any justice to what
you're trying to do in that oneroom.
So that's where I I experiencedthis um this past spring, where
I took a step, I I I dipped atoe into the sandwich
(32:49):
generation.
My um parents live severalstates away.
And my father had a medicalemergency, and my daughter also
was dealing with um a wholeother diagnosis here at home.
And I needed to decide whatneeds my attention most right
now because I do have a greatsupport system here at home for
(33:09):
my daughter.
So I felt comfortable.
And if I wouldn't have, I wouldhave found something, right?
So that I could go to this moreemergent situation and help my
mom and dad stay away.
And I found myself starting todrift back home while there was
something very important goingon right in front of me.
(33:30):
And I remembered to like, okay,I'm gonna sit here next to my
dad's hospital bed as he comesout of anesthesia, and I'm gonna
hold his hand and we're gonnabreathe.
And he wasn't aware, but startedmirroring my breathing back.
I was mostly doing it formyself, but it also helped him.
SPEAKER_00 (33:49):
So you're there in that moment, you're not thinking
about everything else that youshould be doing or that maybe
needs your attention.
You're right there and you'retaking care of yourself by doing
breathing exercises there inthat moment.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
Right.
You can take care of yourselfand be present for your loved
one at the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
I like that idea.
So a lot of us feel like we'renever doing enough, whether that
be at work, at home, with ourkids, for our parents.
So, what would you say to anywoman out there or any person
out there who's exhausted fromtrying to be everything for
everyone?
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
What is your definition of enough?
Why are you trying to beeverything for everyone in your
life?
What do you want in this moment?
We can't control thecircumstances of our lives for
the most part.
But we can control how we showup in it.
And even if you were everythingto everyone in the past, doesn't
(34:47):
mean in this moment you need todo it again.
unknown (34:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:50):
So today's episode, um, we're gonna be calling it
all all the women in me aretired.
So what does that phrase mean toyou personally?
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
When I look back at it, I mean, I saw this meme
years ago.
And it was this um figure layingon a ground on the ground, and
it just said, all the people inme and t are tired.
I'm like, yes.
And then I applied it to myselfwhen I couldn't get out of my
car and go into my home, when Iwas laying on my bed in a fetal
position, like all of me.
This isn't physical exhaustion.
(35:23):
This is every piece of me isexhausted, and I don't know how
I'm going to move forward.
And when I found the managingyour personal energy, I was
like, oh, that's it.
So it could also be tired.
All of the energies in me arebeing drained, right?
But all the women in me aretired.
The physical part of me, themental, the emotional, the
(35:45):
spiritual part of me, theworking mother part of me, the
entrepreneur and business ownerpart of me, the loving daughter
and the caring sister and thesupportive wife.
All of those women in me aretired.
And I can attend to them bymanaging my personal energy.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
And you created the care well circle for family
caregivers.
So, as part of this, you'regoing to be giving the listeners
like two free weeks, I think, tobe part of the care well circle.
SPEAKER_01 (36:13):
It's a restorative, video centric platform.
It's something that I wished Ihad.
I know that's also cliche thatpeople say, I created something
I wished I had, but it truly is.
When I was living in thehospital with my daughter after
a partial brain tumor resectionduring COVID for a month, like I
tried to go to these supportgroups online and all of these
things.
(36:33):
And I was reading all of theseFacebook support group text
threads, which were great, but Iwas craving face-to-face
interaction.
And I couldn't get that inperson.
And I wanted to be able to go inanytime.
Like I can't make a Zoom callright now because doctors are
rounding.
Like I wanted to be in thatsupport group, but I couldn't.
And so this is a 24-7 umrestorative video platform where
(36:57):
you can come and you can quietlyobserve, or you can practice the
pause practices I post onMondays, or you can come in and
look at the share and supportposts on Wednesdays, on Fridays,
there are resources, and um,we're going to have monthly
experts coming in for lives oncea month.
There's a lunchtime supportgroup the second Tuesday of
(37:19):
every month.
Um, the fourth Thursday, there'sone in the evening.
And if you can't make it, that'sokay.
There's recordings.
But I wanted a place wherepeople could have touch points
and they could see faces, andthat's Carewell Circle.
SPEAKER_00 (37:35):
Is there a like a code or something that you need
to use to get no, no?
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
There's actually if you go to ProzilienceCoach.com
forward slash carewell circle,it should take you to the
landing page that allows you tosign up.
And there's a two-week pause, Icall it the two-week pause
included to see if this issomething that will support you
because I don't want to add moreto your plate.
I want this to be a place ofrespite and relief.
(38:03):
And if that's not it for you, nohard feelings.
You know, you can you can departafter the two weeks.
And and if not, then you'reyou're welcome to join us each
month.
SPEAKER_00 (38:13):
Amazing.
That's quite the gift.
Jen, I love quotes.
Is there a particular quote thatyou love and that you'd like to
share with us?
SPEAKER_01 (38:20):
Yes, but first I'm gonna take down a quote I don't
care for.
Everything happens for a reason.
That's really hard for me.
Um, I don't see why mydaughter's brain tumor happened,
at least in the moment.
Um, I I have learned so muchfrom her and her grace and her
resilience.
And she's actually theinspiration for the work that I
(38:42):
do what I do right now.
So the quote that I turn to ispain is inevitable, suffering is
optional.
And that that quote isattributed to a lot of different
people.
I'm not sure if anyone reallyknows where it came from, but
I'm just gonna uh share thisthat it doesn't matter to me who
first said it because during myfirst kidney transplant, I
(39:06):
learned it firsthand from thekids at children's hospital.
These kids were riding theirtricycles as they were getting
their infusions with theirparents like running down the
hallway with their poles behindthem.
And I was like, Who am I to layin this bed and say poor me all
of the time when these kids areshowing me what it means to
(39:27):
live?
Yeah.
So that's the suffering isoptional.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
The pain is there, it's it's there, it's always
gonna be there.
But I think it's how weinterpret that pain and what we
make that pain how it makes usfeel, and and how we internalize
that, that really changes ourexperience.
Jen, where can listeners findyou?
SPEAKER_01 (39:45):
My website, prosiliencecoach.com.
I should have picked an easierum, you know, website to spell,
but it's P R O S I L I N C E dotcom.
Um, there you can find you knowideas and resources for
caregivers.
There is the Care Well Circlesign up.
Um, I also have a page there fororganizations who I also like to
(40:08):
work with, um organizations whohave a community of family
caregivers to go in and helpthem learn some of these um
strategies so that they cansupport them in a more
sustainable way as well.
I'm also on Instagram andLinkedIn.
SPEAKER_00 (40:22):
I'm gonna be putting all of those links in the show
notes.
So if anybody wants to go andsee you, they can they can find
you there.
SPEAKER_01 (40:29):
I'd be very happy to see some smiling faces and to
help support them.
SPEAKER_00 (40:35):
I love that.
So, Jen, thank you so much forbeing here and for sharing so
openly with us.
Your perspective is sovalidating and so needed,
especially for you know peoplein the audience who feel like
they're doing it all but stillfeeling like they're falling
behind.
Yeah.
And I know that a lot of peopleare gonna walk away from this
episode with a little bit morehope and a whole lot more
(40:56):
clarity.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
Well, thank you so much for sharing this with your
listeners.
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
And thanks to all of you who are hanging out with us
on Paging Doctor Mom.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, then go ahead and hit
the subscribe button and followso you don't miss what's coming
up next.
And if you want to keep theconversation going, you can find
me over on Instagram at drAngela Downey.
I'd love to hear from you.
So take care for now.
You are doing better than youthink.
(41:21):
Thanks for spending time with metoday.
I hope something in this episoderesonated with you.
If it did, hit follow,subscribe, or share it with
someone who needs to hear ittoday.
The codependent doctor is notmedical advice and doesn't
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If you're in a crisis, please goto the nearest ER or call 911 or
reach out to your local mentalhealth helpline.
(41:42):
I'll be back here next week withmore support, stories, and
strategies because we're healingtogether.
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