How to Tame a Dragon - Kevin Sakaki (part 2 of 2) - Constant Combat

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
This is part two of our conversation with Kevin
Sakaki from headquarters andmobile assault platoon three.
Sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
Yeah.
We've uh commented now uhseveral times that it's
absolutely amazing that not asingle one of the interviews
have the same they're they'renot the same.
You know, there's there'sthere's a different feeling
after each one of them.
Some of them are very reminiscy,and then other ones are much
more like conversational or orwhatever.

(01:08):
But I think across the boardwe've noticed that to your point
that it's been very catharticfor everyone involved.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15):
Man, I love that you're doing this.
You know, when I when I talkedto Shane about this, how you
guys got to this point of doingit and and wanting to put this
together to, you know, forposterity and to tell the story
before it's there's no one leftto tell it.
You know, I think that's that'sgreat.
I love that idea.
It's just it's it's also youknow frustrating because again,
you know, you you you can't findanything on the battle of

(01:36):
Ramani.
Now, when you say Battle ofRamadi to people, you know, kind
of in the know, they're alwaysgonna go to the second battle of
Ramani.

SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
Yeah, 2006.

SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
Yep.
And like I don't even know ifthere's mention of the 2004
Battle of Romani anywhere otherthan what we talk about.
And there's a lot of speculationon why that is, you know, like
why is it that you know, youknow, why did we get no whatever
it is?
There's no hero.

SPEAKER_01 (02:02):
What do you think?
I'm curious because everybodyseems to have their own feelings
as to why.

SPEAKER_03 (02:06):
You know, I I think I I was fortunate enough to be
in different communities withinthe military.
Like I worked a lot with youknow, in Afghanistan with like
SOTIF, JSOC, uh, like thedifferent special operations
branches and stuff, and youknow, working in the
intelligence community, you heardifferent things about different
things.
And I think that something thatwas kind of talked a lot a lot

(02:27):
about was Fallujah was the mainpush.
It was it was not, I mean, andthe reasons behind why it was it
was highly public, right?
Like they brought in the mediafor every like I don't think a
single unit didn't have embeddeduh media within it.

SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
Every major news network was there and they had
aerial footage and all kinds ofthings, you know.
It was definitely uh the biggestpart of the first marine
division's war on on while itwas on TV.

SPEAKER_03 (02:57):
So you're exactly right, and I think that's why.
I think it was because that wastheir baby, you know, their
brainchild.
It was like, hey, we're gonnashow, you know, we're gonna show
this angle of the war and howyou know how great we are.
And and I and I think um it wasmore kind of a controlled debt,
if you will.

SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (03:13):
I I feel like that.
I can't I can't verify that.
Like, this is all justobservations and things that
I've taken over the years.
But like, you know, you hearfrom us, like, and here we are,
one battalion, like it's um itwould be embarrassing for the
Marine Corps to admit that inthe sense that I think that they
would have to admit that theykind of forgot about us, you
know, that we didn't have thesupport that we needed.

(03:33):
We didn't have shit, we didn'thave anything.
No, no air, no indirect.
Right.
And and because of that, thenthe question becomes to somebody
well, why did they take so manylosses?
Why more than any other unit intheater today?
Why?
Well, the answer is blaringlyobvious because we had zero
support.
We were doing it, we wereoverextended uh in the in the
conflict and the things that wewere doing, and we still managed

(03:55):
to to do when people hear 35KIA, 30, you know, I count uh
Ryan in that 35.
Yeah, prostucked and try tostay.
He was still us when he waskilled.
With that amount of people,people like uh Marines being
killed, like they don'tunderstand the amount of
insurgents that were killed.
Like it was like I think whatthey say through the April 6th

(04:18):
through the 10th, wasn't theresomething like 200 insurgents
killed?

SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
So the initial estimates were interesting, uh,
in that they went at about 500to 550 for between April, uh
April 6th to April 10th.
And that was both sides of thecity, the Sophia district and uh
the South Fights down on EasyStreet.
Um never got full confirmation.

(04:44):
That was based on Intel chatter,uh, the dead bodies we drug out
of the field hospitals on the8th, and the uh family members
that came to claim the deadbodies that we had dropped off
with the Iraqi police.
Because I don't know if youremember, but we were just
stacking bodies on the Humvees.
I do remember dropping them offat the IP checkpoints.

SPEAKER_03 (05:03):
You remember CPs when we would do these like
VCPs, these snap VCPs, and therewould be bodies and trunks,
people would be taking theirdead home, and we're like, What
the what?

SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
Yes, you know, like it was I distinctly remember you
and Jordan searching a truck andthen coming back and being like,
That was the craziest shit I'veever seen.
Like, what what did you see?
And you're like, there was aface in a bucket, yeah.
And it was just and you're like,it was just a face, there was
nothing else.

SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
Dude, I forgot about so I remember one night this uh
oh man, completely okay.
So we were doing one of those.
We came up and we stopped thecar, and they were, you know,
they were all pretty jazzed upbecause I guess they were trying
to get over to the hospital orsomething like that.
But it was a bucket full ofparts, yep.
Like it was just a bucket fullof like arms and hands and legs,

(05:50):
and there was two fucked uppeople in the back, and we're
like, Oh shit, let's check thetrunk real quick and go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 (05:56):
But one car that came through had an actual arm,
like from the elbow down on thedash.
And we're just like, What?

SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
And that was one of the things I never understood.
I know that they had put outword that if you had body parts,
bring them into the city and tothe hospital and the Iraqi
police station specifically, andthey would appropriately take
care of it, but they never toldus that.
Yeah, we found out in the in theother way by finding people's

(06:25):
cars with body parts in it.

SPEAKER_03 (06:26):
Back to the the question though, I think for the
why part is because of all that.
Like we did more with less thananybody else and lost lost the
most people because of it.
I don't think anybody reallywants to acknowledge that.
It's it's kind of like it's kindof like I I feel like for the
Marine Corps, it's like a blackeye for them.
It's like it it is a leadershipfailure, right?
Like we less, so we had amazingleadership.

(06:48):
We had, you know, ColonelKennedy, Sergeant Major Booker,
you know, all the way down, youknow, we there was there's there
was really great leadership, Ithink.
You know, like even with all thelosses, like you you look at the
SOPs that were developed afterthat, which was if you ever got
to read the Kenny Maraki sent mesomething that was processed
through the war fighting lab,and it was lessons learned from

(07:10):
us.
Yep.
Um, and it kind of became SOPfor some different things.
But one of those things that'sreally unique is you look at the
no extended mourning period,right?
Like like there was no morning.
There basically was when we lostsomebody, it was have a service
with those closest to them thatday or as soon as possible, and
then you everyone goes rightback to work.

(07:31):
And what is work?
Work is you know, trigger point,going right back to combat.
And so there, I think that'salso another reason for a lot of
people why they had a hard timewhen they finally came home.
I don't know that I mean we sawsome crazy things, man.
Um, and I don't know that it wasthe this is just my belief, and
it's just like I don't thinkthat combat or um for me, I can

(07:53):
only speak for myself, but likeit wasn't combat, it wasn't the
things I saw, it wasn't any ofthat other stuff that like
caused problems or broke me, asmuch as finally being able to
process everything.
Yeah, like a lot like and goingthrough all of that.
Like you think um, you know,working in the better community,
you hear a lot of nutty, nuttyshit from counselors and
different things.
And one of the one of the thingsthat I heard a while back was

(08:16):
you know, anger is fear andsadness, right?
And if that's true, then therewas a whole lot of fear and
sadness for us.
Like there were times when youlike for myself, and I'm sure
you guys can relate to where youfelt sad, but you couldn't
afford to be sad.
You had to suck it up becauseyou're in a leadership position
or other people were looking atyou, or you you know, you
couldn't just sit and break andcry.
So you start like, oh shit, notnow.

(08:37):
And so you fear sadness, you getangry, and then that tool to be
directed at something is that'sthat's a powerful tool.
That's something, you know, andthere's no off switch for it.

SPEAKER_02 (08:51):
Well, and I think that's that's an excellent
point.
And I I actually talked to myson about that kind of more in a
more broad sense of this ideathat you know, uh when you get
that angry, you know, if you'reyou know, taking that point of,
you know, like sometimes you'resad and frustrated and it feels
like anger, but even stillinside of that, learn to channel
it, to uh channel it correctly.
Go ahead and use that to to stayon point, you know, use it to

(09:14):
sharp sharpen yourself.
And I think the military,especially the Marine Corps,
does an amazing job of you know,any feeling that you have,
channel it into aggression andto a to a fine point.
But what they don't teach youthen is like it doesn't always
have to be anger, it doesn'thave to be aggression.

(09:34):
You know, you can you can usethat in a positive way too, and
we don't ever reprogram that orgive other tools.

SPEAKER_03 (09:40):
Right.
And that's sense too, becausethe one that we channel into the
most is aggression, you know.
Right.
I think the other side of thatfor you know, like you said,
it's it's really letting peopleknow that there's more emotions
and that emotions have apurpose, if only for like
letting you know something'sgoing on.
Like I remember doing a projectwith my son when he was in third

(10:00):
grade, uh, Greek mythology, andwe were doing this study, and he
said he found something in abook that he was reading.
He's like, Dad, check this out.
And like he was telling me thatthe Greeks don't believe it, and
like they don't say, I am sad, Iam mad, I am afraid.
They say they're being visitedby sadness.
Like, so all these emotions arevisited with a purpose, and they

(10:23):
only hang around until they'reuntil they deliver their message
and then they're gone.
So they would like entertainthose things, right?
And it's kind of unique, uh,kind of neat when you think
about it, like to that aspect.
You know, I don't believe inlike being emotional at all.
I think I think they serve apurpose, but to let them drive
the bus is a whole differentthing.

SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 (10:44):
And I think uh I think like you said, like I
remember Mikaula telling me astory when he got back and they
get they hit the parade deck andthey were getting cut loose, and
one of their staff NCOs came outand said, All right, gentlemen,
you know, it's it's time to putthe dragon away.
It has no purpose here, youknow.
And and you think about that,and that sounds really cool and
all, but it's like, well, how doyou do that?
Yeah, like how do you turn itoff?

(11:06):
Like, you know, like how do youlike, and I think I think for
each one of us it's reallyinteresting that I'm sure every
single person you interviewedand everyone that we talk to or
know has in some way or anothergone on their own journey to
kind of process everything andfigure things out.

SPEAKER_02 (11:20):
Sure.
Well, and the ones that haven'tare the ones that are in the
situations that they are, youknow, like if you don't if you
don't address that, that'sthat's the ones that are still
stuck in the cups, and you know.

SPEAKER_03 (11:33):
I agree, agree a hundred percent.
You know, there's um I can'tthink of his name now, but um,
you know, I'm I hike a lot, andthe first person to through hike
the Appalachian Trail was theWorld War II veteran.
And when they asked him why hedid it, he said he was walking
off the war.
And it's it's um yeah, a lot ofinteresting things, man.
I think um kind of bouncedaround a lot there.

(11:53):
Sorry about that, guys.

SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
No, this is to to the to the point that I made
earlier that each one of theseconversations have like uh Nylon
and I made a uh and uh you know,we talked about it that we were
going to create, you know, likeleave as much space as possible
to let you know our our brothertalk about whatever they wanted
in relationship to this uhlarger topic of Ramadi 04.

(12:18):
And yeah, you know, like eachpart of these things is really
important because to what and Ireally appreciate everything
that you've said because I knowin my personal life I have
several friends that haveapproached me about mental
health and and and whatnotbecause I talk about it as
freely as I do.
Yeah, and so hearing hearing youknow, you you've just said two

(12:41):
things actually that I'm gonnabe taking and putting in my
pocket to to look over and stufflike that, um, with just how
your process, you know, how toprocess, how to think about it.
Because, you know, it's justlike war fighting itself, you
know, like you'll never knowevery single tactic, and every
single tactic isn't as alwaysapplicable in every single
environment.
And so um the best thing you cando is to train, train, train and

(13:05):
learn new and new skills.
So uh this is part this is justpart of it.
So I appreciate everything thatyou shared.

SPEAKER_03 (13:11):
Thanks, man.
I same, same for you guys.
It's you know, like you said,you know, don't know what you
know until you know it, kind ofthing for a lot of things.
It's yeah, I um Ramadi was theculmination of a lot, like for
me, I think it's like the thingthat exemplifies why we're a
Marine in the first place,right?
Like my my the most valuableaward that I have isn't even an

(13:35):
award.
Like I got an army achievementmedal from you know the from
SFODA from fifth group from thetime that we spent with them.
Like me and Neil and Langfordall you know got got that as
well.
That's not the one that's mymost prize, it's just my fit
rep.
It's the one I got before I gotout that says lead marines in
combat.
You know, like it's not it's notanything that like that's the

(13:57):
culmination, I think, of whatevery Marine aspires to do is
that's the ultimate test, right?
People always ask what it waslike in you know, combat are
like, I'll get that.
Like, well, what was it like,you know, for you guys?
And I was like, it's surreal inthe sense that it's the it's the
it's a place in life for a lotof us where life finally made
sense.
And what I mean by that is likeif if um Shane, you probably

(14:19):
read uh Carl Jung, you know,Tribe.
Have you read his book Tribe?

SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
I have.

SPEAKER_03 (14:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
I imagine Blake has probably read it as well.

SPEAKER_03 (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's phenomenal.
Yeah, and from that aspect ofwhat he says about the what what
what every man uh desires is youknow, like you need you need a
tribe, you need a common enemyto fight against, and you need
common goals, right?
There's I'm sure there's morethan I'm missing, but but what
I'm trying to say is in combat,life makes sense because you
don't give a shit about thelatest iPhone, the newest app,

(14:51):
how many likes you have, or orwhat you know so and so said
about you.
It's there's no water coolertalk, there's no bullshit.
It's you you don't even make it,you don't even win when you hit
the racket night because youknow, like gosh, which platoon
was it where we had we had thesoft top root the canvas roofs,
then a mortar round came throughand skipped out the back.
Was that 81s?

SPEAKER_01 (15:13):
Oh, I didn't know one came out.
There's they had one that hit soclose that it blew holes through
the wall, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
I have a picture of the one that like it was like 18
inches off the side of ourboots.

SPEAKER_03 (15:24):
Yeah, so so like you like that's when guys started
like sandbagging their racks atnight, like putting sandbags and
on the top, putting the the theplywood on top, sandbagging the
top, too, yeah, and sleepingunderneath, yeah, because slept
in a bunker, literally, becauseit wasn't you made it if you
woke up in the morning, and thenwhen you woke up, you were

(15:44):
thrown right back into it thesecond your feet hit the hit the
ground, right?
Like you you didn't know whatyou were gonna expect when you
walked out the hooch.
I remember it was it was crazybecause when like the rotation
was so unique that was like daytaskable, night taskable, day
QRF, night QRF, and then it wasguard, yeah, right?
And when you when you went whenthe platoons would make it to

(16:06):
guard, it was like this wholedifferent animal black out the
hooch, no lights, like it wouldjust be deathly quiet in the
hooch, you know.
Like you didn't you didn't gointo whoever's hooch was on
guard because you knew theyneeded their rest because we
didn't we didn't get rest.
Yep.
Like I forgot what it was at theend.
I remember, gosh, I wish Iremembered this.
I wish I wrote it down.

(16:26):
But I remember being in the CPand looking at the total amount
of days that we had for rest,and it was ridiculous.
It was something like aphenomenally low number of rest,
like like absolutelyoutrageously low.

SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
Yep, it was under 15.
I remember that specifically.
I was like around 12 or 13.

SPEAKER_03 (16:47):
10 and 10 10 to 20 somewhere in there.

SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:50):
The entire eight, eight, eight months that we were
in combat, right?
And I could be wrong on that,but it was just ridiculously
low.
And I was thinking, holy shit,you know.
I remember uh that that kind ofgoes back into I'll I'll share
something with y'all.
When I got back, I I was kind ofstruggling.
I was getting ready to get out,and I kind of got um put out to
pastor, and they sent me tocombat skills training school,

(17:12):
and so I became an instructorthere for a while, and it was
fun.
It was a lot of like you know,like Marines that had come back
from combat and were put thereto train the non-infantry
Marines in infantry tactics andfield skills, so to speak.
So we got to kind of torturepogues and officers.

SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
Oh my god, it's your perfect job.

SPEAKER_03 (17:33):
But but um I remember at that time I was I
was married to my son's mom, andand we were coming back from no,
we were we we lived in LagunaNigel and we were driving to San
Clemente and coming down, Ithink it was El Camino Real, and
we got to the part where we justgot into town, it's like
stoplight to stoplight.
And this guy, this kid wasdriving like this little Subaru

(17:55):
WRX or something like that, andwas it was like office space.
Um, every time like he'd switchlanes, that lane would stop.
So then he'd swerve back over tothe other one, and that one
stop.
He was you know, music blurring,he's getting all pissed off and
like you know, throwing his armsup at everybody.
And so, like, I remember comingup to a light and the light
turned was turning red.
So I was just hitting thebrakes, and he pulls in front,

(18:17):
like angles in front of me, andlike I had literally had to lock
him up.
And my wife at the time like hadher feet on the dash and then
like snapped forward and likecame down, and so I just hit the
horn, and like this kid leansout the window, flips me off,
hanging out the window, andspits on my truck.
And I don't remember anythingafter that.

(18:40):
I just and this was after we gotback, right?
But I do remember hearing aboutit later.
Like, apparently, I drugged thiskid out of his window of his car
and was like, you know, openedthe door and started slamming
the door, slamming his head inthe door.
And my um Ali got out and likeshe slid into the driver's seat,
turned the truck around, parkedit on the other side of the

(19:01):
street, and ran up to me and waslike, Kevin, and she grabbed me
and I turned around and I waslike covered in blood, you know,
and like was ready to swing onher, and she screamed and she
said, Let's go.
So I got in the truck, we gothome, and she said, uh you know,
she went straight into thehouse, straight into the
bedroom, packed a bag, andgrabbed her keys and uh said,

(19:22):
I'm I'm leaving and I'm notcoming back until you get help.
And I was like, What?
Saw no problem with that,literally at the time.
And I remember um going to getgoing to anger management.
This was crazy, but uh on base,and I remember sitting in the
waiting room at some littleplace on I think on Main side

(19:43):
somewhere.
I finally go in and it's like alieutenant commander or
whatever.
She, you know, you had to fillout that whole post-combat
checklist, right?
Have you ever, you know, and itwas like, yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes, yes, yes, all the way down.
And so she, you know, we I go inand sit down and she goes, Hey
Sergeant Sakaki, she's like, Ishe's like, I got some good news
and bad news.

(20:03):
And I was like, Okay.
And she was like, I the goodnews is I don't think you have
an anger problem.
You know, she goes, and it's notreally bad news, but she's like,
I think you have PTSD.
And I remember laughing.
I was like, ha.
I was like, you know, likepissed.
Like, I was like, okay, thanksfor wasting my fucking time.
And I got up and I walked out.
And she followed me out in thelobby and she goes, wait.

(20:23):
She goes, Give you're alreadyhere.
She's like, give me fiveminutes.
If you don't like what I have tosay, you can still leave.
And it turns out this this ladyhad been dating one of oh gosh,
one of our officers that waskilled.
Like they they were datingbefore before the Robleski?

SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
Yeah.

unknown (20:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (20:43):
Ski?
I think it was ski.
But so she knew all about youknow, 2-4 and our story and
everything else.
And she started to explain, youknow, she said something along
the lines of um paraphrasing,but it was when you are she
started asking me all thesequestions first.
She's like, Do you find yourselfbored at work?
Do you find yourself taking likeunnecessary risks?

(21:05):
Do you drive fast?
Like all these questions that Iwas like, yeah, so what?
You know, I'm like, I'm not lowcrawling through my neighbor's
yard at 2 a.m.
I don't hit the deck when a carbackfires.
I'm not, you know, paranoid.
I'm not, you know, walkingaround with a a knife, a gun,
and a hatchet in my you know,pants.
You know, I'm like, it just I'mjust pissed off.
I'm like angry, like things setme off, you know.

(21:26):
And most of the time it was likerude people or loud people or
obnoxious people.
Just and so she said that whenwe were in combat for so long in
in the fight or flight, youknow, that that parasympathetic
nervous system, you know, likethat whole thing with uh, you
know, she's like adrenaline isan actual drug, you know.
Uh is it am I getting it right,Dr.
Nylon?

(21:47):
F and F or Yeah, yeah, man.
Yeah, that they're used in thecom in that in the in the
medical field.
And she said that when you're onit for so long, like we are,
like it's the fight or flight,it's the push you through when
you haven't had food, sleep,like all the things that we were
deprived of at many a differentpoint in that deployment.
Um, you it actually changes thephysical shape of your brain.

(22:10):
I didn't know that.
Um, I don't know if that's trueor not to this day.
I never looked it up.
I just but she said that youbecome addicted to it.
And so when I'm in anuncomfortable situation, what
got me through all those othertimes works, and so the body
looks to kind of get that fix.
So for me to get that adrenalinedump, the quickest way to do
that was to get angry, you know.

(22:32):
Like that's why I kind of thinkthat the person who wrote the
original like Hulk series withlike Bill Bixby and Lou
Ferrigno, like all that.
That guy honestly think that guywas writing it about PTSD,
because that's exactly what it'slike.
It's like, please don't make meangry, you wouldn't like me when
I'm angry.
And then no one talks to you.
You wake up naked in a field, noone wants to talk to you.

SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
You know, it's it's sounds like my college years.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (22:58):
Um, but when she told me that, like she goes, um,
after she explained it, it kindof made sense.
She goes, it's not what's wrongwith you, it's just what
happened.
You know, in those words likethat, that's not what's wrong.
There's nothing wrong, it's justwhat happened.
And she explained PTSD that it'sa normal response to an abnormal
situation, you know, that likeanybody would anybody in our

(23:19):
situation would have the sameresponse for a certain period of
time.
That's normal.
After like so many days, the theDSM says, Oh, 30 days is okay.
31 days is a problem.

SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
Yep, that's accurate.
Yeah.
So and so 30 days is acutestress disorder, and then once
it's past 30 days, it becomespost-traumatic stress disorder.

SPEAKER_03 (23:37):
Right.
And so it's like, how who thehow do you measure stress?
Like what we went through, youcan't say to the level that we
operated, you know, in the redor the black, is the same as
somebody who got in a caraccident.

SPEAKER_01 (23:50):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (23:50):
Like I'm not saying that that's not stressful or to
that person to believe that theywere gonna lose their life,
right?
But like for us, where there wasno certainty, there was no
nothing for eight months ofliving in the in the red and the
black, right?
No, no yellow, no, no, no green,definitely no green.
You know, maybe some yellow,maybe some moments of yellow,
but you know, like so.

(24:11):
She's simply just said, hey,it's it's not what's wrong with
you, it's what happened.
And no, it's I don't believethat it's it's abnormal.
It's still a normal response.
The DSM even says it's normaluntil this time, right?
Well, so then she said, Well,now that you know what are you
gonna do with it, you know, theonus is on you now.
You don't get to just be anasshole, you don't get to go

(24:31):
around and be angry and beatpeople up and do do whatever
you've, you know, the onus is onyou to do something with it.
And it stuck.
And it was something that reallykind of made me think about
things a lot, you know.
And I think for for like I wastelling you, why all this?
I think I was just trying to saythat a lot of us are doing
really well, you know.
I think a lot of us are doingreally well, and I'm and I'm

(24:53):
there's so many guys I'm reallyproud of.
And I think it's because we didthe work, you know, we leaned
into it, we figured it out, wewere like, hey, what is you
know, like even if it was areason outside of ourselves, you
know, to find that drive and tofind that reason to kind of like
look into kind of doing better,you know, like like like you

(25:15):
know, it's kind of earning thelife that we got that somebody
didn't, you know.
I think that's you know, likethe for me it was that not
really being able to process allof that, not really being able
to even like anytime any emotioncame up, we just stuff it down,
right?
And it's like, hey, just dealwith what we gotta deal with,
unless it was shenanigans.
Shenanigans were always welcome.

SPEAKER_01 (25:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I you brought up a goodpoint that I think I'm gonna hit
two parts that you said.
Uh number one, I wholeheartedlyagree that at some point, maybe,
with all the studies and thetherapies that are being
developed, that perhapscombat-derived stress disorder

(26:00):
will be a different categorythan PTSD.
There is no chance that a womanthat was raped or a person who
was in a car accident or someonewho got attacked violently by a
dog in their neighborhood can betreated the same way as someone
who went through an eight-month,very intense deployment.
That's those just aren't thosearen't the same two stress

(26:21):
disorders.
It's just a different therapyand retraining that has to
happen.

SPEAKER_03 (26:26):
Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 (26:27):
And then the other part of it that I think people
are have been unwilling torealize is that once you take on
a PTSD label in the military, atone point in time, the only
thing they could offer you isdrugs.
You're very lucky to meet atherapist who apparently had a
personal connection uh with theMarine Corps or with combat in

(26:47):
any way, to know that that was aregular thing.
I don't think most people hearthe words that PTSD is not
permanent.

SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
Oh, don't get me wrong, let me back up though.
Before her, though, like Iremember when we got back off
the deployment, like when wewhen we went to not Junction
City, where did we fly out of?

SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Uh Al-Assad.

SPEAKER_03 (27:07):
Yeah.
Remember when we got toAl-Assad, we had like a day to
like sleep and do nothing.
Yes, or whatever it was.
And like I remember they werehanding out drugs, like it was
cool.
Like, yes, here's an ambient.
Here's the I don't even rememberwhat they were.
Like, I remember I had a smalllittle ziploc with like five
different pills in it, and likethe one really small one that
they were like, you know, likethey're like, hey guys, don't be

(27:29):
trading these, don't be swappingthese out.
Take given to you and be carefulwith the small one if you're
gonna take this one, get in therack.
You know, I remember sleepingfor like like the entire time.
I don't remember anything elseabout Al-Assad because I took
all the meds and I was like, Ow,zombie.
You know, and got back, likeeven when I was going through um

(27:49):
after that though, I they didput me on a whole lot of meds
because I left her, then thenwent to back through care
through the VA, uh throughactually through the BAS and
then the VA through theirparasite care.
And man, I can't even tell you.
Like, Nylon, I was on, like,they gave me Zoloft, Ambien, or
what are the thing?
Cyclopene.

SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
My assumption would be a muscle relaxer, probably.

SPEAKER_03 (28:12):
Yeah, and benzos, right?
Like, it was ridiculous, man.
That the the amount of uh drugsthat I was on.
When I finally got to a civiliandoctor, it was a civilian doctor
who looked at that and was like,hey, these are all
contraindicating.
Is that the right term for onesthat are supposed to be sub uh
prescribed together?
Like he was like, man, he'slike, because I was on two

(28:32):
different um, let's see, I wastaking diazepam, gosh, I can't
even remember.
But like I I was I remember atone point when I was working for
you know CST combat skillstraining school, like the
sergeant in charge was like,he's like Sakaki, he's like, I
need you this, this, thistraining revolution.
He's like, please stop takingthe fuck at all.

SPEAKER_01 (28:55):
You know, that's a good way to put it because
that's what they all do, theyall give you a level of
numbness.

SPEAKER_03 (29:00):
I mean, again, I would scroll through and like I
remember and with SergeantCoffee, he was such a he was he
was actually a bronze star uhrecipient in Iraq.
But like I remember walking pastpeople that like I would
normally just like snap on andthese and he would be waiting
for me to snap, and I would justbe like, Oh, pretty.

(29:21):
You know, like yelled at, hey,guys, what are you doing with
that guy?
And I'd be like, Hey, dude, areyou having a problem with that?
You know, you know, and then Ijust walked past them, and it
was like, I was like, I'm notjoking, man.
It was it was bad.
I I didn't remember months of alot of things, and I just and
then the worst part was likenobody tells you don't quit cold
turkey, don't get off thesethings because they could kill

(29:43):
you.
Yeah, so I just stopped takingthem, and then shit got real
interesting.
But that's that right after Istopped taking them was when I
got into that incident, whichled me to going to anger
management, which funny enough,I don't believe you can treat
anybody with anger managementbecause I think anger is a
symptom, you know, it's notcause, it's it's not
causational, it's you knowsymptomatic.
And so anyway, that's what ledme to that.

(30:04):
But yeah, I was way overmedicated for quite a while.

SPEAKER_02 (30:09):
That first I that first run, I I I would I would
love to know the stats on onsome of this stuff, and in
particular, that when we gotback, we would had to have been
within the first few thousandMarines to come back after
sustained.
Combat since like Vietnam.

(30:30):
Because even if you talk aboutthe first Gulf War, if you talk
about even the initial invasion,that sustained and I was going
to go back to you know that thefew days off.
And I wish I had, I don't knowwhere it is.
I wish I could find it.
But I had written down thenumber of firefights, the number
of times that my convoy got hitwith an IED, the number of times

(30:51):
that my truck, you know,actually took a concussive blast
from an IED.
Yeah.
And I wish I could remember theexact number, but it was
something like it averaged outto like every third day we were
in a firefight.
My truck, our our convoy was hitwith like 26 IEDs, my truck with
four IEDs and an RPG.
And like it's on a completelydifferent playing field, right?

(31:11):
A hundred percent.
And to dial it, to dial it backto like getting out though, Tap
and Tamp didn't know how to dealwith us.
You know, they they didn't,they, they, they, they didn't
have programs in place to how toseparate.
I mean, Nylan and I, and severalof us too.
Um, I know Stadleman also, uh,but we got we were out of the
Marine Corps less than threemonths after our last firefight.

(31:36):
Yeah.
Like with no decompression, no,you know, I I remember getting
our DD2 or not a DD214, but ourfinal paperwork done.

SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
And that warner when we got back.
I'm sorry?
Were you in the barracks when wegot back?
Yeah.
Do you remember like that firstthose first couple days, like
when we turned two on Libbo,like no one was sleeping?
Like dudes would be like callingpeople at like three in the
morning, hey you guys want to goto Denny's?
You go on Denny's, there wouldbe the whole whole company
sitting in Denny's, likedrinking coffee and eating, you
know, pie, you know, or likewalking around town.

(32:08):
You know, it was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
Well, it's because they didn't know how to they
didn't know how to process us.
Yeah, and it was the same way,and it was the same way with the
VA.
When I got to the VA in Januaryof 05, and they were Markshot
and Saunders actually reallyencouraged me to submit right
away.
I'm glad that they did, but eventhen they were they they were
just kind of like, uh we don'thave a procedure for this,

(32:31):
really.
Yeah.
And it took years, years.
I mean, it's so much better now,so much better now.

SPEAKER_03 (32:36):
It's still play yet light years to it still
improved, but it's not even wewent through so much that you
can't even it like even talkingabout it, like you would have to
categorize everything from startto finish and everything in
between, like nutty things likelike what we didn't have, like
we didn't have armor, but I I asyou were talking and you said
how many times you'd been hit.
You remember when we first gotthere, we didn't even have EOD.

(32:57):
So we were doing route clearingon our own.
It was like luck of the draw,and so you just drive fast until
it blew up, or yeah, or somebodywould sit on the hood of a
Humbee to s to do the perimeter,and like with a pair of binos,
like you drive real slow one wayor the other, right?
It was like not the shit that wedid with no support, zero
support, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (33:17):
Well, and I think and it going back to something
that Nylan was saying about likethe difference of the of the
PTSD is at least, and I'll speakfor myself, is I have a very I'm
very aware of, and I think aboutit actually sometimes, of the
progression of the deals that Iwas making with you know the
higher powers that I was prayingto at that time.

(33:38):
Right.
Of when you first getting overthere, being like, you know,
please don't let me, you know,like I don't want to be, you
know, disfigured in some way,you know, like I I I I I would
give up at that point.
And you know, progressivelyletting more and more happen
because you realize that it'sunreasonable not to get a little
bit hurt.
And then finally, just kind ofthat final flip of the switch of

(34:00):
being like, not that you'resuicidal, but that you're so
resolved to not coming home.
Like it's not, it's not that Ilike you've you've accepted that
you're that you're a dead manwalking, but it's not it's not
hopelessness.
Yeah.
And it's and it's such a it'ssuch a unique feeling of of
that, that that it's so hard tolike if you haven't had to make

(34:22):
that like accept that, it'simpossible to talk to somebody
else about it.

SPEAKER_03 (34:26):
Right.
We we said this, like we, we,you know, we I don't remember
who all was involved with thisconversation.
I know Anthony was one of them,but we called ourselves the
Suicide Kings because we hadessentially already committed
suicide in our brain, you know,in our mind I'm gonna die.
Hopefully, one of the onlythings I can control is how I go
out.

SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (34:46):
Am I gonna go out, you know, hiding under a Humvee,
or am I gonna go out in a pileof you know, brass, empty mags,
and hand grenade pins, you know,like that's that's the
selection, the switch where youflip it and you're like, okay,
and it's it's almost like likereally like saying, I'm already
dead, fuck it.

SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
We had that conversation in the back of the
hooch by the smoke pit when yougot a shipment of the liquor
chocolates that had liquor inthem.
We were all biting the tops offthe liquor chocolates and doing
shots of liquor chocolates.
And right after that, I made thesuicide deuce uh sign that we
hung over the the door on themap to hooch.

SPEAKER_03 (35:27):
Holy shit, that's awesome.
Yeah, I forgot all about that.
Yeah, the hooch, the man, thesmoke pits, that's where that's
where therapy happened.
Oh yeah, like literally was I Iremember I got I got four tall
boys of Guinness and a and asmall thing at Jamison.
I don't know how it got through,but it did.

(35:48):
And we were doing Irish carbombs back there one time.
I remember K uh Kelly, Kelly'sdad would send these like mango
tip like cigars and like sitback there smoking like you get
back from an op, everyone wouldwait, and then you'd go sit in
the smoke pit, spark up yourstogie like, hey, we made it,
everyone made it back.
And you sit, tell you know, youkind of tell stories and you

(36:09):
talk about it, and and it waslike this kind of sense of
relief, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (36:13):
One of my favorite pictures of Condi that I have is
May 13th.
There's the date is on thebottom of the picture, those
digital dates that were alwayson pictures.

SPEAKER_00 (36:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (36:25):
And Savage had been killed on May 12th.
But it was uh me, Moselle,Silton, Condi, uh Day, who was
one of our guys uh from fifth,the other 5th Marines unit said
it was a combat replacement.
And we were all sitting there uhsmoking cigarettes and and

(36:45):
bullshit.
And I don't even know what thehell we were talking about, but
it's great pictures, and andCondi's sitting there with his,
he's got his hand on his chinlike he's a GQ, and it's it's a
good picture, man.
And everybody looks like theywere having a serious
conversation, and somebody cameand snapped the pictures.

SPEAKER_03 (36:59):
That smoke pit was built on the blood, sweat, and
tears of of Lance Corpalspunished on working parties to
go build a build out ofsandbags.
Hugh, you will build us for yourfuck up, you will build us a
couch.

SPEAKER_00 (37:12):
That's right.

SPEAKER_03 (37:14):
That's funny, man.
I uh I don't regret it.
I don't regret going to combat.
I you know, like I hear peoplesay that you know, a lot of guys
that that didn't make it withus, you know, that got out right
before we went and said, Oh, Iwish I could go.
And I'd be like, hey, don't bean asshole, dude.
Don't be stupid.
Like it's like I'm glad youdidn't.
You know, I'm glad you didn't,but I don't regret going.

(37:36):
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 (37:37):
I I always say, you couldn't give me a million
dollars to trade one second, butyou also couldn't give me a
million dollars to do one moresecond.

SPEAKER_03 (37:44):
Amen.
Man, that's a that's a reallygood way of looking at it.
Yeah, like I said, I thinkagain, that goes back to just
saying that's isn't that theculmination of what every
infantry marine aspires to do isactually not just train and get
out, but actually take thetraining and apply it.
And like I think it's it's likethe test, right?

SPEAKER_02 (38:02):
Like well, and I think we also had the ultimate
test, though, because I I havenever thought about it the way
that until you just said it nowis not only did we get to do it,
but we got to do exactly whatMarines are asked to do, which
is adapt and overcome, givenalmost nothing.
What's that?

SPEAKER_03 (38:21):
But I thought you were gonna say fight and die in
place.
That's okay.
Yeah, we sure did a whole lot ofadapt and overcome, though.
Like that was that was theepitome.
If we had to have a slogan thatdefined our deployment, it would
be that adapt and overcome inevery way.
I mean I think like you guyswould probably know this, but

(38:41):
like prior to the breakdown of aweapons platoon and the
formation of a mobile assaultcompany, I don't know that that
had ever been done before.

SPEAKER_01 (38:51):
As far as and as far as I can tell from any of the
publications, we were the first.
And it we were the first, and wemost of the pubs reference this
things that we did.
They don't say us explicitly,but but they reference all the
things we did.

SPEAKER_03 (39:04):
And that goes that again goes back to, you know, I
don't think people believed whatwe were doing when we were doing
it.
You know, like I I hear stories,I've heard stories when I got
back about, oh yeah, you guyswere, you know, kind of you
know, effing up out there andthis and that.
And I was like, how did we F up?
Yeah, it's interesting.
Or a bunch of cowboys or youknow, all that other stuff,

(39:27):
right?
Like I heard that more thananything.
I remember actually, do you guysremember when 2-5 came in to do
the replacement?
Yes, and they were uh like toldnot to listen to us.

SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
Yeah.
Oh yes, you're the third personwho has brought that up as well.
And they told us specifically wewere told you're a bunch of
cowboys.
Yeah, we are not to listen toyou.

SPEAKER_03 (39:50):
Uh until we okay, go ahead, take the right seat or
take the left seat.
You guys drive.
Then it was, oh shit.
Conversely, though, do you guysremember when we first got there
and we replaced the NationalGuardian who was there?
Yes, and we're right seat, andthose guys would like the first
time we went out, we're like allkitted up, loaded for bear,
ready to go out, and we we getin the vehicles and they just

(40:13):
hammered down, you know, longskinny pedal all the way to the
fucking mat.
You know, racetracked the wholecity, and we're like, Are you
guys gonna stop anywhere?
I think I don't remember howlong it was, but I remember it
being like a couple of minutes,like actual combat patrol that
took like minutes, just haulingass, you know, hearing that
Humvee scream at like 55 milesor KPH, you know, going around

(40:38):
sounded like it was gonnaexplode, and then getting back
in, and we're like, did weforget what are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 (40:44):
And they did not go into any of the neighborhoods,
at least not with any of the theride-alongs that went on.
We went straight out to theartist, turn around and came
right back.

SPEAKER_03 (40:52):
But we switched, and then the very first time we went
out, we got engaged with them.
And and what do we do?
We do what we do best, stop,right?
Everyone like this, we did thewhat a mobile assault platoon or
company was meant to do, right?
Dismount, suppress, dismount,you know, like that whole thing,
right?
And uh and they were like, Whatthe fuck are you guys doing?

(41:12):
They wouldn't even get out ofthe vehicles.
That was nuts, you know.
It's funny, people just I don'tI I just think like people have
no idea from start to finish,not to bolt, not to, you know,
like what we actually endured,what we actually had to overcome
to get to actually be sittinghere talking.

SPEAKER_02 (41:29):
Yeah, there was something that you said about
the uh the journalist that I hadI had forgotten I had forgotten
was a part of our largernarrative, which is although we
did get embedded journalists,there was a period of time where
they stopped coming down becauseit gotten so hot down here.
And I remember talking with Ican't remember I don't remember

(41:52):
which journalist it was, but wewere having a larger
conversation about like how wewere getting reported upon.
And the individual said, Well,it's easier to get to Fallujah
and it's safer for us than it isto get over to here.

SPEAKER_03 (42:08):
Agreed.

SPEAKER_02 (42:09):
And so, uh, because it was so close to Baghdad and
all that other jazz.
And so they were able to get inand out and be on kind of the
periphery.
Because if they came to it getembedded with us, because of how
we were fighting inside thecity, yeah.
Fallujah was different.
I mean, and and I know you guysknow this, but but for everybody
else's purposes, they surroundedFallujah.

(42:30):
Yeah, they had able to come inand out, in and out, in and out
very safe, the journalists thatis very safely to those units.
Yep.
Where if they came to visit us,we were literally inside the
city.
I remember how many times thatwe had those journalists jump in
the vehicles and be like, oh,we're just gonna go on a little
patrol.
It's like, okay.
And almost every single time Iremember, I remember some.

(42:53):
Do you remember that one the onejournalist from uh I think it
was a Christian science monitor?
Anyways, she was she wastalking, she was talking such
trash, such trash.
And um she went out and we gothit hard, hard, hard.
She went crying in the cool.

SPEAKER_01 (43:13):
Yeah, she was the one that yeah, shaped everything
else.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:16):
Even go even after we had gotten back to the at
Hurricane Point, she wouldn'tleave the the the Humvee until
the bird landed, and she wentfrom the up armored Humvee to
the bird and took off.
And she was supposed to be therefor like two or three days, and
it was like 12 hours later, shewas gone.
Yep.
And my point of the story isthat I think that I mean that

(43:36):
that obviously directly affectedour story.
I mean, I mean, we werefortunate enough to have Oliver
North that helped really lay layour lay the foundation of our
story not being forgotten.

SPEAKER_03 (43:48):
Others did a story on us that was pretty impactful,
pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
I mean, the only other two major journalists was
Dave Swanson, and he was thatphotographer that took all the
famous Ramadi pictures.
Any picture of Ramadi that'sfamous is his.
And and what's and it's it'sworthy to mention that the
deployment was so impactful forus, but it was so impactful for
them that even Dave Swanson,who's been around the world into

(44:13):
every damn thing, takingpictures of presidential
elections and riots and allkinds of war zones, still writes
to this day about Ramadi, aboutthis deployment.
And I say and Greg Zaroya wasalso from, I don't remember what
paper he was from, but he was uhan ABC affiliate.
Both of them paid people cash todrive them to Ramadi.

(44:37):
They did not have any officialmilitary escort, they had Iraqis
who risked their lives to dragtheir ass out to Ramadi.
Yeah, and Greg Zaroya, samething.
He had wanted to write the storyfor a long time.
It took him three years togather all the information to
write that book unremitting.
And it's an amazing book,especially for Golf and Echo
Company.
Yep.
But it's it's like again, forall the shit he's been through,

(45:02):
that's what he wants to writeabout.
That's what he wants to spendthree years of his life doing.

SPEAKER_03 (45:07):
In as unknown bearded guy.

SPEAKER_01 (45:09):
Yeah, you're the unknown beard.
Yep.
So if Greg Zaroy ever doeslisten to this, this is the
interview with the unknownmarine.

SPEAKER_03 (45:18):
That's funny.
But you guys remember too, likeduring all that time, like it
was never reported.
The the the city Ramadi wasnever said, it was SUNY
triangle.

SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
Right, yep, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 (45:30):
It was it was almost always put as the SUNY triangle
or Anbar province.

SPEAKER_01 (45:36):
Yeah, or Habania or Anbar province.

SPEAKER_03 (45:38):
Yeah, there's a lot there.
Like, um, you know, I hope oneday people look at this or hear
this and they're like, wow, weyou know, kind of need to take a
deeper dive into this.
And there because so manylessons were pulled out of this.
Like you you said you said ityourself, you know, you read the
pubs and you hear you, you youknow who they're talking about,
but there's no recognition forit.

SPEAKER_01 (45:58):
Several of the now, to the Marine Corps' uh credit,
in several of the flag officerpublications, like you know,
two-star and hired general andstuff like that, and and that
were shared across service,multi-service pubs, do reference
Ramadi, but it's still uhinteresting in the way that they
do.
It's often they were sosuccessful, and then it doesn't

(46:21):
say anything else.
And that was it.
It's real weird as far as thatgoes.

SPEAKER_02 (46:25):
There's something also to be said about how our
chain of command was, and thatwe were falling up underneath
the army as we were, rightbecause because I ended up
working for Human ResourcesCommand Army for a few years,
and I was actually the unitboard recorder, so I was in
charge of all of the unit awardsfor the army, and so that was
both historical and current era.

(46:46):
It was one of the best jobs Iever had, it was really it was a
it was an awesome job.
Nevertheless, um, while there, Ihelped I found the our the muck
that we got through the army,and I was reading it over and
realizing that uh to make itmaking the story too long.
The point of it is is thattechnically we should have

(47:07):
gotten a puck through the forthe for the through the Navy,
right?
We should have gotten and I Iactually was looking at it
because they got their muckbased off of the work that we
did.
There was almost no they therethere is actually no way that
they would have been able to gettheir unit award that they got

(47:28):
without the without the workthat we did.
And I had approached the MarineCorps and they said, Well, the
problem is that you can'tdissect award packets like that.
And so since the army hassubmitted you and we're we're
the action of that award, wecan't ever get an award for that

(47:51):
because it's already beenacknowledged in this other one.
And I was like, You can'trescind it because it's from
another branch, and they'relike, Nope.
Anyways, the reason why I sayall of that is is that I think
that also helps that does limitthen that narrative being able
to be out there as a standalonething of like, okay, during
Ramadi, here's the puckcitation.
Because as for a lot of peoplemay or may not know, but a puck

(48:14):
is held in place because theidea is every like the majority
of the unit should receive asilver star.
That's philosophically the ideaof why you would have a puck.
Instead of giving a bunch ofindividual awards at the silver
star level, it's saying, well,as a unit, you are all
functioning at the silver starlevel.
And so those citations end upbeing used more in a different

(48:36):
way.
And unfortunately, we can't everdo it.
And so that narrative gets lost.

SPEAKER_03 (48:41):
So yeah, that's interesting.
And that and it's kind of notsurprising either, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 (48:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (48:49):
Story story checks out very 2-4.

SPEAKER_03 (48:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember the unit, like I Icame in and um I had gotten out
previously, and I was like outfor like a little over a year
when 9-11 happened, and I camecame in right after that.
Um, interestingly enough,Anthony was on recruiting duty.
Like I called him and he put meback in.

(49:13):
We were actually in our firstunit together in third LAR.

SPEAKER_01 (49:16):
That's right.
I forgot that you guys knew eachother.

SPEAKER_03 (49:18):
Yeah.
And so um, I just remember whenyou know, like I went through
MEPS and they're like, well,where do you want to go?
It's like Fifth Marines, youwant to do infantry?
And I was like, Yeah, I'm gonnago back into you know, doing my
MOS or or a secondary MOS, youknow, in in the infantry.
And so his one of the officersat MEPS in Dallas, where he was,

(49:41):
was actually um from our oldunit.
So he was like, he's like, Yeah,he's like, You want to go to
Fifth Marines?
Like, we'll get you to the FifthMarines.
So I show up and I check in, andI think I checked in with one
five or two five at the time.
I don't remember why.
I don't remember where you guyswere, what you were doing, what
two four was doing at the time,but I just remember them getting
them deciding that I was goingto two four and everyone kind of

(50:02):
laughing about it and going, Oh,you're going to two four?
Good luck.

SPEAKER_01 (50:08):
Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 (50:09):
Yeah, it was just funny.
And the and the monikerMagnificent Bastards has never
been more true, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (50:16):
It's so true.

SPEAKER_03 (50:17):
Yeah, it's so true.
It's just fun.

SPEAKER_02 (50:20):
Well, our story is out there though.
Years later, I was working for adefense logistics company, and
uh to make a long story short, abunch of they were gonna do a
fleet-wheeled vehiclemaintenance program with the
Iraqi army, uh, US fleet-wheeledvehicles, and this is probably
2015 or something like that.

(50:40):
And uh, so we brought a bunch ofIraqi generals over, um, and
we're having a conversation.
We're gonna have this bigmeeting to finalize the
contract, and uh my boss uh Iwas a part of the team.
And so we were having dinner forthe first time, and my boss it
was introducing the team, andand it was and as he had
introduced me, he was like, Oh,and Musser here uh was in uh the

(51:03):
Marine Corps, and he's like,Where were you?
And I said, you know, Ramadi in2004.
And every one of the generalsstood up and came immediately
over and like shook my hand andwas like, 2004, that's crazy,
you know, like, and they werelike, they weren't confusing it
with 2006, they were talkingabout 2004, and they were like
absolutely they're like, Youwere the one of the Marines that

(51:24):
was there.
They there's there's uh maybethe US military doesn't talk
about it, but um, we definitelymade an impression on the
Iraqis.

SPEAKER_01 (51:33):
Well, no, and it's it's worth mentioning too, and I
don't know how much you guyshave followed Iraq currently,
but Fallujah is not doing great,still has a lot of issues, but
Ramadi is like a blossomingcity.
They're building skyscrapers,they have a new university, like
it's is a whole different world.

(51:55):
Uh, you wouldn't even recognizeit.
And it's it they're really likethe the bustling city of the
whole country, uh, outside ofBaghdad.
Of course, Baghdad has all thepoliticians, but outside of
Baghdad, it's it's really doingwell.

SPEAKER_02 (52:09):
Spring break 2027.

SPEAKER_03 (52:14):
The 2004 Spring Break shirt, it says Spring
Break Mermati 2004.
What'd you smoke this summer?
Joel with a uh uh you know thekaffee on its head with a bullet
hole in it.
Good times.
You know, like I'm I'm gratefulfor the experiences that I had
and the people that we wentthrough it with, like you guys,

(52:36):
you know, like I think atdifferent times I think um we're
what got each other through, youknow, after 100%, you know, like
after the fact, it was the youknow, like the checking on each
other.
I mean, it was like Jimmy andLou coming to my townhouse one
day and threatening to kick thedoor open if I didn't answer,
kind of thing, and you know,making me go take a shower, get

(52:56):
dressed, and go, you know, getcleaned up and go eat a meal
with them, and then like, youknow, like those kinds of
things.
Like I think people that don'thave what we had, I actually
feel sorry for them.
People don't have this level ofof brotherhood, like people just
don't understand.
You know, they want to, like youhear all these people saying,
Oh, well, I was in the army, andI'm like, Yeah, yeah, you know,
I hear you.

(53:16):
Or or I was, you know, I was inlaw enforcement and I'm like, I
love you too, brother.
You know, but it's the same,man.
Like, like people don'tunderstand what it's like to
have people that will actuallyput their lives on the line for
you, like literally every day.
You know, like people always askwhat you think when I, you know,
when I thought about the war,like, oh, you were in Iraq.
Well, what did you think aboutwhat we were there for?
I was like, I I don't get paidto think.

(53:36):
I didn't get paid to I didn't Ididn't get paid to have an
opinion, I got paid to do a job.
Right, that's right.
And that's that's it.
Like we we don't we're notafforded that opportunity, we
don't get to speak out againstthe the president or have an
opinion, period.
Like literally.
So everything we do, it's youknow, it's not for mom, apple
pie, and the flag, it's for theguy to the left and right.
And I think you know, that'sthat's the most everything else

(53:59):
pales in comparison.
When guys tell me that they missit, I'm like, you don't miss it.
You you miss a life that madesense, just survive with with
people that you know, like youdid you could not get along with
people like people.
There could be people that youactually may have had fist
fights with or gotten into itwith, but on the battlefield, it
didn't matter, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (54:19):
Yeah, were you facing the right direction?
That's all that matters.

SPEAKER_03 (54:22):
Yeah, exactly.
All that matters, you know, it'sit's just nuts.
It's um and those thoseexperiences and those people
shaped the like the rest of mylife, you know, in in a good
way.
Like, I don't, you know, therewere some challenges that came
afterwards, but I think for themost part, like if you focus on
the lessons you learn, if youfocus on the pain you suffer,
right?
And I think it's there's a lotof lessons to be pulled out of

(54:44):
the things that we've did andlike what we're capable of and
what we survived and all thosedifferent things.
You know, like that that led toa I will another time we'll get
into where Ramadi led me intowhat what I got to do with my
life.
It was pretty fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 (55:02):
If you liked what you heard, make sure you
subscribe for future episodes onyour favorite podcast service.

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How to Tame a Dragon - Kevin Sakaki (part 2 of 2)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How to Tame a Dragon - Kevin Sakaki (part 2 of 2)