Morale, Morality and Mortality - Dave Dobb (Part 2 of 2) - Constant Combat

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:34):
This is part two of our conversation with Dave Dom,
first lieutenant and platooncommander for Rainmaker Platoon.

SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
Yeah, so I you know I carried that, you know, and
then you know, obviously youcan't let it affect you at the
time, but you know, having beenfrom golf company, you know,
they had a couple of casualtiesthat hit hit me pretty hard too.
And um Todd Bolding being one ofthem, you know, I was pretty
close to Todd when he was inwhen I was in golf company and
he had come over, he hadvolunteered to come over from

(01:04):
weapons, uh two weapons platoon.
So I got to know him very well.
So when we lost him, you know,that hit hard too.
And and just a side story too.
I had a there's two Marines thatactually went to my same high
school that were a couple yearsbehind me.
One was in golf company, RobMeyer, and then um and then Russ
Bullock in Fox Company, who wasin as well.

(01:26):
So then those two, you know, wehad family connections among the
two of us too.
So I was you know constantlytrying to, you know, keep up
with them, and whenever casualtyreports would come in, I would
keep in a close tab on on thoseguys, and then as well as all of
the Marines that I had in golfcompany.
So just you know, May 12, youknow, was kind of the you know,
is really where that escalated,but you know, throughout that

(01:48):
whole time, you know, you'rejust constantly, you know,
without becoming you can'tbecome you know preoccupied with
it, but it's something that'salways in the back of your mind
is you know, all of these guysthat you know you're responsible
for now, or you were a shorttime ago.

SPEAKER_02 (02:03):
And did you end up getting wounded yourself?
I don't recall.
I I know when May 12th happenedand it was your truck that got
hit.
Did you end up getting woundedin that attack, or did you get
wounded in another one?

SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
So I was wounded on the 7th on the ambush when we uh
down south.
So I took I took um shrapnel tomy hand pretty superficial on
that day.
But that's also the day that theplywood that was above me uh
received a lot of holes, bulletholes in the plywood because
there was people up high on topof the house as well.

(02:36):
So we had rounds coming throughthe cab, um, through the
plywood, uh, through thewindshield, because we didn't
have, you know, that we didn'twe didn't have the bulletproof
glass of that.
We just just some normalwindshields.
So there's a photo of of thatwhen we got back to the combat
outpost later that day with therecovered machine gun of you

(02:58):
know, kind of me sitting in thein the cabin of the high back
with holes in the plywood abovemy head, holes in the
windshield, and thenRegelsberger had the little uh
oh, who was the he had a littlecartoon, a little stuffed
animal.

SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 (03:13):
Buzz Lightyear.
Buzz Lightyear that's the daythat Buzz Lightyear received the
purple heart as well, because hetook he took a bullet through
the leg.
So um yeah, so just on the 7th,and then the the 12th was you
know that IED, and I I thinkit's well documented, but that

(03:33):
was a massive IED that that hitus in Flame Savage on the 12th.
So I you know, I just rememberthe aftermath of that.
I mean, we had kind of we hadended up, you know, we had gone
off the roadway, you know, downinto a you know a ditch, a wet
along the riverbed, and youknow, I look over, you know, and
I was at least for a fewmoments, you know, knocked

(03:56):
unconscious.
I mean, I don't I remember theblast, I remember the cloud, and
then I just went black for aperiod of time, not very long,
because I remember going off theroad, and then I remember
looking over at Regelsberger,and he was he's covered in
blood, you know, his whole faceis covered in blood.
I looked down at me, I'm coveredin blood.
So I start I started moving allof my I'm good, and it ended up

(04:20):
just being his blood thatsplattered over onto me.
Um and then it was a short timeafter that that you know we had
we had gotten out, realized thatSavage was badly hurt, and then
you know, trying to get Doc upthere as quick as possible to
tend to Savage because he was hewas really he and Regelsberger

(04:41):
wasn't wasn't urgent at thetime, but Savage was you know
obviously urgent, so he you knowhe took the priority and then
we're just trying to get Savageout of there became the main
focus, and then and CaptainMyler and his and the command
element was with us at that timetoo, so that you know we had
some extra assets and manpowerwith us.

SPEAKER_02 (05:00):
And did and remind me, and I I'm pretty sure
because I remember seeing the uhmuch, much later, I remember
seeing the Oliver North video ofRegalsberger giving uh an
interview at the hospital.
Uh, even though Regalsperger wasnot like critically injured
right there on the battlefield,he had a you know, he didn't
need to be evacued immediately.

(05:21):
He did end up getting evacuedfrom those wounds because he had
a broken jaw and he ended uphaving to be trached and all
kinds of stuff.
Like he he had a he end up withpretty considerable injuries.

SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
Oh yeah.
I mean he had it not been forSavage, I mean, I mean he yeah,
he wasn't maybe urgent, but Imean he was critical at a
minimum.
I mean, he he had severeinjuries that needed to be
tended to.
He just wasn't urgent surgicalat that time.

SPEAKER_02 (05:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
Like Savage was.

SPEAKER_02 (05:51):
And was it did it end up being the CO who was
making the triage call or Doc,or was it you?
Were you awake enough to makethe triage call at that time?

SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
I was awake enough, but I don't remember anyone
having to make a specific callon that.
I think we had a I think we hada second doc with the CO.
So I you know I don't knowexactly who tended to
Regelsberger, but I know Doc atleast was working on Savage and
a decision was really needed tobe made at that point in time.
I think it was just kind ofimplied that hey, this is this

(06:23):
is who needs the help.
Everybody else, you know, we hadto take up security around the
around the vehicles, around thegroup, push out a little bit,
because as we often found out,you know, where there's one,
there's usually more.
You know, somebody detonated it,so there could be someone
around, there could be directfire coming, and and by that
time we knew that you know, ifif you're in any given area for

(06:46):
a certain amount of time, it'sonly gonna stay quiet for so
long.

SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They call reinforcements quick.

SPEAKER_00 (06:52):
Quickly.

SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
So that that actually pops uh question.
Did the tactics as the as the aswe experienced these things,
obviously we had to adapt andovercome.
And tactics had to shift and andall that good jazz.
Was there a formal process ateither the at the company level
or the battalion level talkingabout how we were gonna how we

(07:16):
were gonna adopt new tacticalprocesses, or was it just more
organic as just like, hey, we'redoing it this way, why don't you
guys do it this way?
Or was there a formal process ofsubmitting after actions, make
suggestions we're gonna formallyadopt this way?

SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
Yeah, no, I don't think it was a form, I don't
recall a formal process.
It was more kind of internal.
I mean, I think a good exampleis you know, I think it's
documented and unremitting too,as far as hey, what's the best
way to uh you know prevent IEDsfrom being placed on the
roadway?
Is it to walk up and down itevery day as we're continuing,
you know, to take casualties, oris it to establish OPs

(07:54):
throughout the city and observeit?
You know, I mean that's just anexample of how things kind of
evolved over time, and I thinkit was the same way with our
company, you know.
We and I think most of the timewe went out, we would do some
type of debrief when we gotback, and then we would just
identify things hey, you sawthis, you know, what did you see
about this that worked well,what didn't work well, and then

(08:17):
we would just you know take noteof that, we would pass it along,
of course, to to our adjacentunits, and I think it just kind
of evolved over time without itgoing through a specific
approval process or anythinglike that.

SPEAKER_02 (08:31):
It was just that that was kind of that'd be kind
of my follow-on question.
Did you and the other platooncommanders get together and kind
of share thoughts, sharetactics, share concepts?

SPEAKER_00 (08:41):
Oh yeah, we would always talk.
I mean, if you remember in thecompany COC there, which is also
where all of us lived, I mean,it was just quartered off.

SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
Um, so we would always sit around that table,
you know, between you know theplatoon commanders, platoon
sergeants, and whoever else.
I mean, I think we were alwayswilling to take take input.
I mean, we would talk all thetime about hey, this, you know,
you know a big thing for us toowas you know, as we were in
vehicles all the time and wewere responding to other units

(09:13):
typically when they wereengaged, so you knew that you
knew when we were going out,like you knew you were gonna get
engaged, right?
So the enemy was out there, theywere active, and they knew where
the reinforcements were comingfrom, right?
I mean, there is only one wayout of hurricane point, so it
was trying to trying to disguiseas some way, trying to take
different routes, you know.

(09:34):
Hey, we took this route, it wasthat it worked well because of
this, or we went this route andthat didn't work well at all.
So that's a good example is youknow, on the 7th, when we were
going to reinforce golf company,we went out and we went to the
south, and we didn't usually goto the south, you know, we went
down Route Michigan, but we wentto the South that time, and look
what happened when we drew whenwe turned the corner.

(09:56):
So it was just it was it was aconstant guessing game, a game
of you know, actions, reactions,and and and counteractions to
those reactions, you know.
So it was constantly trying togame the enemy, and and and and
if you just went based on yourexperiences alone, I mean you
weren't using all theinformation that was available

(10:17):
to you.
So we would we would always talkas a as a company unit to try to
you know develop the best courseof action possible.

SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
Yeah, and I don't and I don't remember when it
was, but I I do remember becauseI was interviewed for it, but uh
when they sent people over fromI don't even know it was the
Pentagon or Marine CorpsWarfighting Lab or whatever to
ask us on like what our tacticswere and how we were doing this
stuff so they could bring itback and help train the new who
would end up being ourreplacements and stuff like that

(10:48):
in general.
Um I would imagine they wouldhave brought in the officers and
not just talked to the enlistedon that.
Uh, were you a part of any ofthose interviews?

SPEAKER_00 (10:55):
That no, that does that does not ring a bell to me
at all.
So they must have just talked toyou guys.

SPEAKER_02 (11:01):
It seemed it seemed very random.
I know they did talk to JDStevens because we talked to
them together.
Uh, but it was it was extremelyrandom.
It was uh I I I I don't know ifthey just threw a rock and
whoever it hit, that's who theytook, but I I have no idea.
But I remember doing thoseinterviews as well.

SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
Okay, yeah, that that doesn't ring a bell with
me.
Not saying it didn't happen tome, but it doesn't.
I could have had I I haveforgotten more than one thing.

SPEAKER_02 (11:28):
So one or two one or too many IEDs to the head there,
sir.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
Well my best recollection is that they were
only there, like they came in,they were only there for like a
like maybe even a day.
Like they hit they hit us, andthen I think I think we ended up
memory serves, I thinkSledgehammer took them out to
Combat Outpost and to Snake Pitto do some interviews and then
came back.

(11:55):
And so it might have been even aday, like maybe three days tops.
So and I just can't rememberwhen that I can't remember when
that would have been even.
I mean it was well into itbecause we had developed tack
like there was it wasn't like,yeah, maybe this would work.
It was like, no, this is what wedo and it works.

SPEAKER_02 (12:12):
Yeah.
I felt like it was July, but Idon't remember for sure.
I the weird thing about allthat, I remember them
interviewing the mechanics alsouh over in the motor pool.
And I found that superinteresting in that they were
asking them how whatspecifically is failing on the
vehicles, uh, because theywanted to change everything.

(12:32):
That that was just just sort ofthe overarching thing, is that
they really wanted to change alot of the vehicle stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (12:37):
Yeah, I know that we lost at least two transmissions
because of the as Dave waspointing out, like the weight of
the vehicles were just way pastwhat the transmissions were used
to or were designed for, and sowe blew two.

SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
So I mean we were stacking sandbags in the back
and the met and the metalplates, and the that and then
they put those you know,specially engineered doors that
you know with the thick, heavyglass.
Yep.
Uh and I think and I think thosehad windshields that went with
them too, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Like the glass yeah, the double tank windshields
uh-huh with the it had theflexible pane that uh is very
similar to the ballistic geltype panes that they use at
banks.
Yeah, it's very, very similar asfar as that goes.

SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
Yeah, so just overloading those vehicles and
yeah, lasted a little while, butuh well, we also were driving
them like we stole them, too.

SPEAKER_01 (13:28):
Those uh those port engines were screaming.
Oh yeah.
Begging for mercy.

SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
Yeah, man, you're gonna get out there and protect
the log train so you can get thebreakfast.

SPEAKER_00 (13:40):
We and speaking of, I don't know if you meant to
reference the log train that wedid when we were turning over
with 2-5, but that is a that isa mission that also stands out
is you know, we were, you know,the the people who who stayed
back to left seat, right seatwith 2-5.
They were escorting the logterrain and and and the vehicle

(14:03):
became disabled.
Oh, on the west side of thecity.
I mean, they were not too far,not too far along the way out to
the combat outpost when theybecame disabled.
And I rolled up, I don'tremember the exact circumstances
as to who I was with.
I know I was with 2-5, andeveryone was kind of
lollyganging out around thedisabled vehicle.
I'm like, and I think where someother two, four guys there, uh

(14:25):
Diaz being one of them, and wekind of started to it, kind of
started to get like, hey guys,we need to get moving here.
Like, we can't just hang outhere waiting for this vehicle to
get up.
Like, we got to do something.
Like, this isn't it's not gonnastay quiet for long.
Um, and it wasn't long afterthat at all that we started
taking indirect fire, and that'swhen Diaz was injured.

(14:46):
I took out his knee pretty good.
And there was a couple otherinjuries during that that time,
I think.
And I had prior to that, I hadtried to get the the okay from
battalion just to bring themeal, bring the bring the log
train back to Hurricane Point.
Like we can I think we can gowithout a hot meal, you know.

(15:06):
I mean, I think I think we canwe've been we've been doing it
for seven months.
Let's bring it back, let'sreset, and look at how you know,
we got it disabled, you know,one of the one I don't know if
was it a five ton or a seven tonwas site, right?
I mean, you're almost there.
I mean, you're just trying tohand off completely a bunch of
people that didn't know thecity, you know, that that didn't

(15:27):
know us, that we didn't knowthem, and we're trying to get
this food out to the outpost.
It was like, let's not end thisthis way, you know.
So that's that stands out askind of the la that's one of my
last memories of of being thereand just kind of like a wake-up
call, like we gotta button downhere for the last couple of days
and try to get out of here, butbut we also need some help, you

(15:50):
know.
Um and I don't I think I don'tthink I'm feeling I don't think
I'm alone and saying that Idon't think the help we got
during those couple of days wereum what we had hoped for, but um
I think we ended up getting outof there, you know, we kind of
minimized the damage, if thatmakes sense.

SPEAKER_02 (16:09):
Yeah.
I'm curious actually now nowthat you mentioned that, and
that's uh there was a lot ofhard fighting on September 11th
and 12th those last couple ofdays.
Uh mostly the 12th.
I mean the 11th is pretty badbecause there was a lot of hits.
I mean, Blake's vehicle gotblown up.
There's a lot of differentincidents where people's
vehicles got shot up, but the12th was a lot of actual

(16:31):
gunfights and then the rush onthe snake pit and the front gate
of Hurricane Point.
What we found out later, aftersome very heated exchanges and
words, was that the NCOs from2-5 were told basically not to
listen to us.
Which I I found veryinteresting.
I'm curious if you had anyinteraction on the officer side

(16:51):
of things with uh the otherlieutenants, or perhaps with uh
the company commander of theweapons company that relieved
us.
Did they mention anything likethat?
That they were sort of given abrief that what we were doing
was incorrect.

SPEAKER_00 (17:03):
So, yeah, the weapons company or the um
exchange with 2-5.
I don't remember having alieutenant that I was turning
over to.
And I might have, but I don't Idon't recall that.
I do remember the companycommander coming in.
I won't say his name, but Iremember him coming in and

(17:24):
Captain Wyler telling him to gethis stuff on because someone had
gotten in contact with withsomeone, I don't remember what
platoon it was.
Captain Wyler was gonna take himout, and he's like, Well, you
looked at him like dumbfounded,like, what do you mean we're
going out?
Wyler's like, Yeah, we're we'regoing out.
Like, that's what we do, that'swhat we do, you know.

(17:46):
And the guy's like, I he refusedto go out.
The the the what the weaponscompany commander of 2-5 refused
to go out of the wire to assista unit who was engaged.
So that kind of that kind ofstarted the 2-5 turnover,
obviously, not on a very goodnote.
And I think it maybe you knowthat might have led to why some

(18:07):
of that stuff happened thathappened, but I mean that was
the end of his company command.
I mean, that guy effectively wasrelieved on that day and never
led and never led the companyfor a day in combat.
Um I recall going out as and itthere wasn't a lot of us that

(18:28):
stayed back, but it was likemyself and Garcia stayed back at
least for a day or two.
I mean, there wasn't theturnover was pretty brief,
right?
I mean, for the five days, maybeseven days situation they were
coming into.
Yeah, it it was it was prettybrief.
So we had a couple guys thatstayed a couple days, and then I
I stayed the longest.
I mean, I was the last one tocome back, and I remember going

(18:50):
out with them, and I it was theday of the log train that the
log train broke down.
Yep, and I was in the I was inmy right seat, you know, of the
lead vehicle, and again, Ididn't have a I I don't remember
the lieutenant specifically, butI remember the driver, and we're
going, and I just remember, Imean, I was used to, I mean, I
think in 81s, I mean, I think wehad, I mean, I think weapons

(19:12):
company as a whole.
I mean, I think all of ourdrivers were just especially by
the time September came.
I mean, everybody was soseasoned and so efficient, and
you would, you know, you talkabout driving Humvee, it's like,
oh, it's easy.
Well, it's it's not like it's askill.
Like we had we had really gooddrivers, you know, and I was
spoiled with Regelsberger, andthen I had, then I think Dahl

(19:35):
stepped into that role.
So we were just we we we werereally good at what we were
doing, and then now I'm ridingwith a kid that never met him.
And I remember looking over athim, and we're going down Route
Michigan, we're heading east,and every time we hit a
perpendicular running street, welook down and we're getting shot
at every time RPGs are comingdown the road every time we go.

(19:59):
It was like we called it like wewere running the gauntlet, you
know.
And I'm and I'm looking over atthis, and we're just I mean,
it's like he's driving MissDaisy or something.
I mean, we're just like cruisingalong, and I'm like, dude, and I
remember saying, like, and Ithink Blake, now Shane, you
didn't know me as well, but likeI wasn't a big yeller, you know,
like I didn't I didn't raise myvoice a lot, yeah.

(20:22):
No, but I remember looking athim and I was like, Would you
fucking go?
Oh like I'm not at this point inthe deployment, like I'm not
looking for a fight, right?
Like I'm not looking, like I'mjust looking to make it out of
there, you know.
Like I'm the only one in myplatoon, like in the city right
now.
Like, I'm just trying to get outand I'm trying to help these

(20:43):
guys, and I look over at him andhe had his camel back.
I just I don't know why thissticks out, but he had like the
the mouthpiece of his camel backlike in his mouth, and he was
like very deliberately likesucking on it, like drinking
water, and I'm like, I aboutlost my mind on him because he's
just driving like sodeliberately, like there's

(21:03):
little, there's like littlepieces of you know trash in the
road, and he's like reallydeliberately like turning around
him to avoid them, and he justdidn't get the urgency of the
situation, and I was like, and Ijust lost it, and I just yelled
at him to go, and he did.
I mean, we finally did, but Imean, once we made it to Combat

(21:26):
Outpost, it was a pretty bigrelief, and I think it was that
we had been there a little bit,and then I got a I got a call,
someone called on the radio, orsomeone from golf came out, and
anyway, I was presented with theoption of we could come back now
with 2.5, but there was alsolike a tank company that was

(21:48):
going to be coming through in acouple hours, and they could
bring us back, they could escortus back, and that was a
no-brainer.
I was like, Oh, we'll wait,we're waiting for the tanks.
Um and we did, we hung out acouple hours, no big deal.
And I remember that being like,Okay, this is the last time I
just need to make it from thecombat outpost to hurricane

(22:09):
point, and I'm done.
That's it.
Like, this is the last time,this is my last time being out
of the wire, right?
So we waited for the tanks, theybrought us back, and all was
good.
So, yeah, yeah.
So that, and then you may havetouched on this previously, too.
So that company commander wasrelieved almost instantly, and

(22:30):
then he was replaced by I thinkit was their APSO or or or Three
Alpha, with the assistant OPSO,who was Captain Rapicolt, who
was later who was wounded whenhe he became he when he did the
advanced party to come, youknow, check out Ramadi a month
or two prior to that, and he hewas injured then, but then he

(22:53):
ended up taking over WeaponsCompany shortly after coming
there, and then he was laterkilled.

SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
Yeah, he got he had his face burned in July 14th
when he came for the advancedteam portion, and then he was
killed in November uh that sameyear with uh Corporal Ryan, who
cross-decked uh from map three.

SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Got it, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
So he had he had taken overweapons company due to that CO
getting.
I mean, I say he got relieved, Imean he essentially relieved
himself, right?
I mean, and effectively endedhis Marine Corps career.

SPEAKER_02 (23:27):
That's crazy to think that he made it that far
just to touch down in countryand then be like, nope, nope,
never mind.

unknown (23:34):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
I think it got real because I mean you guys know
Captain Weiler.
I mean, when stuff was going on,like he was there.

SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
He was the opposite, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (23:41):
And that was, I mean, that was really the whole
battalion leadership.
I mean, the OPSO, the I meanthey had to leave someone back,
right?
But like you would you would seethe CEO and the OPSO out all the
time.
I mean, especially when stuffwas happening, you know, and
when Captain Weiler went towithout hesitation, like went to
go get went to go get his cureeyes, like, what are you doing?

(24:01):
Like, like, we're going.

SPEAKER_02 (24:04):
Yeah, I can't ex I can't speak for everybody, but I
know for me personally, it theywent out so much that it almost
was nerve-wracking.
It was like, I I really can'thave my battalion sergeant
major, my battalion commander,the opso.
I I really don't even want mycompany commander leading a
charge because they if they die,I don't know who's gonna replace
them.
Probably no one.

(24:25):
Uh this this is stressful.
Yeah, but but in a good way.
It was good that they werealways out there because they
actually knew what was going on.

SPEAKER_00 (24:33):
I mean, it it is a good feeling to see them, you
know.
I mean, just for sure.
Yeah, you know, say what youwant, but I think anyone would
say, I mean, even as a platoonplatoon commander, I mean, oh,
there's the company campcommander, oh shit, there's the
battalion commander, you know,and it's like it is it's good to
see.

SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
I mean, you expect it, but it's once it happens,
it's well, and and I will add,you know, not not just that, but
I would add that, and and Idon't remember I remember the
conversation, I don't rememberwhen it happened, but very
specifically being told you guysand they were talking to key
leaders at the time, you know,Corporal Muser and you know,
whatever.
But you know, we're not out, youknow, being told, we're not out

(25:13):
there.
We trust your you you, you dowhat is necessary.
And then as things went down,being backed by you know higher
you know, battalion and thecompany off uh officers of just
being like, hey, we're notthere, we trust you, you know,
make your best judgments.
Um and so not only were theyleading from the front, but when

(25:35):
they weren't there, they werevery supportive.
It wasn't a micromanagedsituation, they were just
wanting to be a part of the ofthe fight too.
So uh a little uh kind of a kindof off where where we were kind
of going, uh what was we'vewe've talked to some other
people about uh the so we hadthat root the rotation, right?
So you have QRF day, QRF night,taskable day, taskable night,

(25:59):
camp guard, and stuff like that.
There's different roles,obviously, for camp guard, and
uh due to my situation, I wasalways on radio uh to help out
in the company office justbecause I did so much radio with
the FTC and I was comfortableand whatnot.
But a lot of other people wereup on the posts and stuff like
that.
But as a platoon commander,especially as an officer, what

(26:22):
was your what was that week likefor you?

SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
Yeah, I mean it it was more of a down week.
I mean, it if if there was sucha thing in Ramadi at that time.

SPEAKER_03 (26:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
But I mean, we also would we also would watch the
radios, you know, we would allwe would also be the radio
operator, you know, whether itwas at at night or day, I mean,
we would definitely push in onthose.
So and then just reallywhatever, you know, it was kind
of some time to maybe get caughtup on some administrative type
task that we had to do.
But yeah, really more of a Idon't remember it wasn't it was

(26:52):
a little less regimented,obviously, than being a taskable
or QRF where you kind of alwayshad to be be ready to go.
You did have a little moreflexibility, but definitely, you
know, definitely when that timecame around, it was a welcome
tweak the way I recall it.
I mean, maybe not if you'regoing up on the OP stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Yeah, no, for sure.
I mean, for for me, I mean itwas always I mean again, since I
was on I was in the companyoffice on the radio.
I mean, that is not a stressfuljob unless shit's going down,
and then obviously then it getsa little spicy making sure that
you're capturing everything.

unknown (27:25):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
So you didn't live in a a hooch full of Lance
Corporals and PFCs, so I imaginethere weren't as many naked
people running around your rack.
Uh, what uh what kind of thingsdid you do in your what limited
downtime you had?

SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
Well, and just keep in mind too that I mean I did
live with Lieutenant Wells andStafford Rapazo.
So I mean I wasn't I was Iwasn't surrounded by like the
most distinguished gentlemen.
Uh you know, I mean we weren'tdoing we weren't doing T
incrumpets, you know.
Um it was it was maybe maybeslightly different than being

(28:00):
next to Hersher or someone likethat, but it wasn't it wasn't,
and we've talked we touched onthis a little bit ago.
I mean, the age difference we'retalking is really not that
significant.
So I mean, not a lot, not a lotdifferent.
I mean, I'm not a big, I'm not acard player, I'm not a movie
watcher even.
So I mean, it was just unless,you know, you look, we'd listen

(28:21):
to music, we bullshit, and thenyou know, I would run laps
around the around HurricanePoint.
I mean, it wasn't a very longlap around, but I would do that
quite a bit, you know, to try tomaintain some level of fitness.
And then they had, I don't knowif you guys use these or not,
but up by the palace, they hadkind of some rudimentary uh

(28:42):
washing machines.
Oh god, you know, so they werekind of half you they were kind
of half hand washed, but likehalf machine type of thing.
So you would you know you'd haveto put it in and you know
finagle with it a little bit.
I don't remember the exactprocess, but I'd kill some time.
I'd that was kind of a you knowa way to decompress, I guess,

(29:02):
for me is I'd go out there andyou know, wash my clothes.
And you know, that was usuallyduring that down week, you know,
most of the time, or during theday if I was on nights or
something like that.
But I mean, there were somepeople that you know, we had a
little area that you could watchmovies or something if that was
your thing.
But we'd kind of just hang outin that company, the company

(29:23):
command center, and just youknow, we just a lot of time up
there just bullshitting withwhoever came in.
I remembered at some point intime, I think it was a little
bit later on, but the hooch thatwould have been like to the
west, they had somehow rigged upa TV to get some type of
channels.
I don't know if it was throughAFN or or what, but I remember

(29:44):
you know, that was the year theyou know, being from Michigan, I
was I was I'm a big sports fan,so I was following the NBA
playoffs a little bit.
That's the year the Pistons wonit.
So I remember being able towatch that for a little bit.
That kind of stands out.
But yeah, nothing nothing crazygoing on.
I mean, just just getting by dayday to day, you know.
We we talk about the missionsand you know, and a lot of

(30:07):
administrative uh tasks too, wewould try to get done during
that time, but maybe a littleless crab ass than you guys, but
probably not a whole lot less.

SPEAKER_03 (30:16):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (30:21):
That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
And I I remember something, you know, just
talking about the the the livingquarters and stuff and I
remember you know the portashitters being out there and and
we had to have a stick you knowremember we had to have a stick
out there because if uh you knowtime would elapse and the they
wouldn't get service the shitwould pile up so high in the

(30:44):
middle yeah that you would youwould have to have that stick to
knock it down to give yourselfenough clearance to to do your
business you know and and um andremember I mean we were eating
like you know quite a few MREsor you know some some type of
canned rations most of the timeso I mean you needed quite a bit

(31:06):
of clearance when you went inthere you know like the so the
two or three inches wasn't goingto do it so that would pile up
and you'd have to grab thatstick to knock it down because
we were they were gettingservice consistently initially
and and we also had laundryservice for a short period of
time that they would pick up thelaundry and take it wherever

(31:28):
they did and they would wash itfold it and bring it back real
nice in a bag for two you hadlaundry service sir uh we plebs
it lasted a about one or two itlasted about one or two cycles
and then and then the guys thatwere doing it I think they found
their heads floating in theEuphrates or something and then

(31:50):
there went the laundry servicethere went the the the porta
potties and no we ended up andthey were out yeah we ended up
taking out one of our honeypotmen and that was one that was
one of the longer stretchesafter he got taken out.

SPEAKER_01 (32:06):
I think it was like it was a long time that they
didn't empty that that onestretch.

SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
Yeah the Porter shooter guy got k yeah we ended
up killing him because he was heended up being an insurgent and
then the DVD guy ended up beingan insurgent as well and we
ended up killing him in a in ashootout in the house and
everybody was like it's afucking DVD guy like yeah great
that's fantastic and then therewas no more burned movies for a
while.

SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
Yeah so I didn't yeah yeah so those those porta
potties always always will standout to me.

SPEAKER_02 (32:34):
You know shit I gotta get the stick you know
we're we're peeking here in thecenter you know so moving
forward to when we all got backuh do you kind of remember what
it was like getting back andthen where did you go after that
as well?

SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
Yeah so we got back and I I remember you know
specifically getting back thatnight and um I had family in the
area but I think we had I thinkour arrival back got pushed a
day or two to the right so Ithink that conflicted with them
being able to see me when I gotback.
So I you know I didn't haveanyone right there on the parade
deck at the time but but I hadwhen so kind of towards the end

(33:14):
of the deployment thelieutenants that were to cycle
out had met with the exo to kindof talk about you know B
buildings and that type of thingand I you know I didn't know I
if I exactly what I wanted to dobut um it was it was a tough
time for people to just get outas soon as you came back.
I mean I had extended my EODdate or my uh my exit date to

(33:37):
make the deployment so I couldhave essentially got out you
know very soon after we got backbut I I wanted to do a B billet
just to give myself you knowtime to kind of acclimate to to
getting back and figure out whatI wanted to do and I I had
orders to be the OPSO down atreverting station San Diego.
So I told him I my my I told himmy preference was just to get me

(34:00):
get me something close by that Idon't could just do like a a PCA
move uh close by San Diego'sgreat you know so he you know he
had some reverting connectionsdue to his previous time so he
had got me down there as theAPSO as a down there.
So that was my B billet.
So I went down there and Ichecked in you know we did the
we all did the basket leave whenwe got back right yeah right

(34:23):
yeah most people took about 30days yeah yeah you fill out the
leave chit and then as long asyou come back the slip gets
tossed in the waste basket Iguess I guess that's why they
call it basket leave.
Yeah um but that's what we callthat's what they told us and
that's what we called it and Ithink that's what happened
because I don't think it everwent on the books.

SPEAKER_01 (34:43):
Not for me.

SPEAKER_00 (34:44):
But and then I checked in yeah about 30 days or
so then I went uh checked intoRS San Diego down in um right in
Mission Valley down in in uhNovember of 04.
This is yet another story to addto the fire of it's interesting
that you were 30 40 days out ofcombat and then you were in San
Diego at a recruiting post wasthat a hard transition at all or

(35:07):
did you enjoy was it a welcomereprieve and you were you were
good just being kind of chilledout and being in recruiting duty
no I mean I think for me it wasit was welcome and it was just
that I mean it was a reprieve Imean it was yeah is it fast
paced at times is it busy yes islong hours I mean all of the

(35:30):
above but you're also notgetting shot at right you know
so people aren't dying you knowso like yeah it was for me it
was an easy welcome transitionand I think a lot of it was just
that the seven months that wehad just gone through I mean it
really gave you that level ofperspective you know it it
really put things in a differentlens like oh because recruiting

(35:54):
duty I mean usually is not veryhighly thought of as oh wow this
is a great duty you know but forme at that time I mean having
been through what we just wentthrough I was fine I mean it was
great like I didn't miss any Ididn't miss I mean I missed the
guys right I mean I missed allof that yeah but I was I was
still around Marines.

(36:14):
I mean like they weren't thesame but like they were good
they were really good marines mymy CO was outstanding the XO was
outstanding everybody the optionCO everybody everybody was great
I'm in a great city I mean I'mliving in Mission Valley I mean
then I moved to Mission Beach Imean it was for all the rigors

(36:35):
of recruiting duty and and Idon't want it to sound like I'm
out having to meet a quota andand write contracts and send
people to boot camp because Iwasn't but recruiting duty can
be a grind no matter what billetyou're in.
Yeah but for me at that time Iwas I was happy to be there I
was happy to do it albeit a asignificant change of pace but a

(37:00):
welcomed one nonetheless.
And so how long did you do thatfor I did that for about 18
months.
And then I um I I transitionedout of the Marine Corps in
summer of oh six July of 2006and did you just move back home

(37:21):
at that time back to Michigan?
So I had a couple things goingat that time I I had a
application I had a conditionaljob offer with a federal agency
I want my goal was to be infederal law enforcement I had a
conditional job offer I hadcompleted all of the steps in
San Diego and I was essentiallywaiting on a on a phone call to

(37:47):
for a a date to start theacademy so while I was waiting
for that phone call which couldtake anywhere from you know a
couple weeks to a month or two Imean I I felt like I was pretty
close.
So I I moved home to Michiganwas just kind of waiting for
that phone call and one day thephone call came from that 858

(38:10):
San Diego area code and theytold me that I had failed my
hearing exam and that myconditional offer was no longer
good and that concluded the andI was being discontinued from
the hiring process.
So that hit pretty hard becausethey told me I I mean I knew I
had failed the hearing testbecause I knew what the
parameters were and I knew whatmy score was so I knew that I

(38:32):
was technically outside of itbut I also knew what caused it
right and I had documentation ofthat so that kind of started a
long battle of you know tryingto you know rectify the
situation but in the meantime Iwasn't able to just oh okay well
I'm just gonna hang out untilthey they fix this because you

(38:55):
know dealing with the governmentyou know you never know how long
that's gonna be yeah um so I hadI had gone out and I had hearing
tests done which all showed thesame thing.
I mean I have my I had my testfrom before I went in and I had
my test from when I got out andit doesn't take a trained
investigator to figure out whatcaused that loss to happen.

(39:18):
But you have to remember thoughat that time people didn't know
how to deal with a whole youknow generation of veterans now
that were coming out not thesame physically or mentally for
some that they came in with andthey didn't know how to they
didn't know how to deal with it.
It took time for that to kind ofdevelop and for people to get
you know policies in place.

(39:40):
Long story short I continued tofight that but in the meantime I
applied to another agency and Iended up winning my appeal with
the first agency and getting anoffer from the other agency all
within the same week.
So I went from not having I wentfrom not having anything to now
being told you need to tell metoday or tomorrow if you're

(40:04):
gonna take this early so I endedup going with the one that I had
applied to second and after youknow two years or so of fighting
the the the fight with the firstand winning I had to tell them
thanks but no thanks so it waskind of a long it was a long
process but it was one you knowit's interesting because when I

(40:27):
was the opso at San Diego one ofyour one of your main duties at
at the recruiting station as theop so and the ops clerk is is to
process and get approvals forwaivers you know you have you
have drug waivers you havetattoo waivers you have
education waivers you have allof these different waivers
almost if you had a in back inthat time I mean if you had

(40:50):
someone that didn't need anytype of waiver I mean let's
let's get them off to boot campbefore you find out that you
need a waiver because everybodyeverybody everybody needed a
waiver right and if what you hadwasn't waiver well that's fine
we'll do an exception to policyI mean we you we found ways to

(41:11):
get things done all all withinthe you know within the provided
guidance of course but I takethat I took that experience
because we we processed a lot ofwaivers and we were really good
at it and we knew whatdocumentation we needed and so
when I provided my own waiverdocumentation to the the

(41:33):
reference agency I mean it was apretty tight package I mean it
was a pretty thorough packagethat I don't think I would have
been able to adequately do had Inot had that 18 months of really
processing waivers on a dailybasis for people that who didn't
need the uh published guidanceto join.
That's good man you knew all thesecrets I knew I knew what I

(41:55):
knew what they wanted to see Iguess I know but we had a I had
a phenomenal uh op cent COsthere that just hey this is what
we need to do this is it this isthe pictures we need you know
you put on you know you put ityou put on the the short sleeve
you know Charlie shirt without at-shirt and if you can see
tattoos coming up through theneck you know that's that's

(42:16):
unwaverable you know but okaywe'll write an exception to
policy you know okay just signhere you know and then you get
it done well now just to put acapstone on all this we're 20
years on what what do you I meanthere were some difficult combat
experiences you described somedifficult command decisions that
I certainly didn't even thinkabout what what does all this

(42:39):
stuff mean to you now you know II think looking back it just
reinforces the importance of theMarine Corps to me and just
seeing the the one thing thatstands out is just the the
selflessness of of all theMarines that we had during that
time and were with and the factthat everybody was willing to do

(43:00):
anything um including you knowgive their life for the guy next
to them I think that just to seethat and to witness that on a
daily basis over seven monthsjust gives you um it's just good
to have that thought thatthere's people out there willing
willing to do that and thatthose men exist.

(43:21):
And I I will always cherishthose moments always you know I
haven't been great at keeping intouch with all of them but I
just I value what everybody didand I and I will the rest of my
life and I I think I speak forall of us by saying that we just
did it for the guy next to usand and it will stay with us
forever.

SPEAKER_02 (43:41):
I certainly agree with that yeah a hundred percent
and I I haven't heard anybodysay anything any different I
haven't heard anybody say I Idid it for the flag or I did it
because the president was a niceguy or something.

SPEAKER_00 (43:52):
Right.
I mean I think and just to youknow dovetail off that a little
bit I mean I think it got to thepoint too that I mean I don't
think I'm alone and saying okayis this I mean I think the
common thought is you know we'remidway through we're getting
blown up every day I mean you goyou go to the motor pool and you
see the vehicles are justtrashed and you you you see the
blood on them and all of thatand you kind of think to

(44:15):
yourself like what what are wedoing?
I mean is this is this is thisreally worth like what is the
what is the best case scenariohere you know and well what is
the worst case well we're we'rekind of seeing the worst case
you know right um we didn't wedidn't know at the time and I
and I don't think really peoplequestioned it openly a lot I
mean I think we did I think weas lieutenants you know when I

(44:38):
talked to you lieutenants andand put platoon commanders at
the time I mean we would pushback a little bit at times like
why are we doing this you knowbut it that but at the end of
the day it's like you just youyou did it for the guy next to
you and the guys that you werewith I mean the big picture kind
of took kind of took a backstagebecause as a lieutenant I mean

(44:59):
I'm like I said I mean I wasn'tthat much different than you
guys I mean I'm not I'm not atthe strategic level.
I mean we're all at the tacticallevel so like although we may
not be seeing the desired endstate or we don't know exactly
what that is it didn't reallymatter you know because we knew
what mission we were given andwe were there to do that to the

(45:20):
best of our ability and thatjust kind of became I think the
focus of going in the win youknow like you said win hearts
and minds you know that kind ofof course we wanted to help
people as long as we were thereI mean when Savage was killed on
May 12 I mean that's exactlywhat we were doing that day.
I mean we had gone to schools wehad hand out handed out soccer

(45:41):
boat we had done all that wewere still trying to do that and
do that mission but that wasn'tthe sole focus.
I mean the sole focus was youknow accomplishing the daily
task and getting out of thereeverybody in one piece I mean
that was that really kind ofbecame the focus as opposed to
being oh we're gonna you knowthe city's gonna be great
they're gonna be having paradeswhen we leave and all that stuff

(46:03):
I mean I think we did away withthat pretty quick and then it
just kind of the focus kind ofbecame internal a little bit our
own guys like how can Iaccomplish the mission and still
get everybody back.
Right did they have an officialname?

SPEAKER_02 (46:19):
No they had no official title uh Booker called
him his bearded guys that wasall he did but we called him the
bearded ladies.

SPEAKER_00 (46:27):
So yeah I get not to keep you guys but it's no no
I've got nowhere to go please gointo it so obviously we you know
they came up with the missionright and I think it was
obviously it had good intentionsmaybe lacking some planning to
some extent but you know theyhad a group of guys and we were

(46:49):
to we were to support them witha not even just a QRF but the
expectation became that not onlyare you the response for the
bearded ladies you actually haveto be in your vehicles ready to
go for the bearded ladies ifsomething were to happen right

(47:10):
that's right engines on engineson engines on ready to go so I
think this was probably aroundApril 9 prior you know after
days of sustained fighting priorto bug hunt number one probably
I'd have to look back at thedates yeah my unit was night QRF

(47:38):
I believe and we were gettingcommunications from battalion
coc uh ensuring that we were inour vehicles ready to go and my
I don't know if I was on theradio if I was or if I was
relaying it to the radiooperator like and the response
was we're ready to go like we'reready to respond we're QRF like

(48:02):
as we always are like we'reready to go like they they
they're dressed they're ready togo you know well and it wasn't
long after that and then we kindof went back and forth a little
bit probably getting intosemantics by you know not
committing to the fact that wewere not in vehicles but that we
were just ready to go you knowum so the watch officer came

(48:25):
over and came in and saw methere and he expected me to be
in my vehicles and uh we're notin our vehicles like everybody's
ready to go like if you need uscall us we're out the we're out
the gate in a minute or lessprobably probably less right um
so that became a big that becamea big thing for that night that

(48:48):
I you know somehow you knowdisobeyed direct orders you know
um when in fact you know thatplan you know we had to write
you know Captain Weiler and I wehad derived that that was the
plan while it got from the watchofficer to to the sergeant major
who was obviously the leader ofthe bearded ladies to you know

(49:10):
escalated right up to ColonelKennedy real quick Harrell so
Captain Weiler and I weresummoned up to headquarters up
to pulled in a room with youknow the Colonel and and uh
major Harrell who who who I knewwell because he was my company

(49:31):
commander in golf company goingback you know all the way to
Okinawa so he and I we werepretty close you know we're six
and centered you know doing askyou know answering to what what
the deal what is going on and Isaid hey I was just doing what I
was told you know I was we'reready to go a QRF and then I was

(49:52):
actually relieved of my dutiesthat night and I don't know
Blake I don't know if that madethat to you guys or not but I
was I don't I don't rememberexactly how it was communicated
but it was yeah you're no longerthe platoon commander and you're
not going on buck on tomorrow oryou're not going on the

(50:13):
operation you're not going onthe operation tomorrow and I
didn't have a lot to say at thatpoint in time where I was like
obviously that's not good I meanyou don't want to get relieved
of command essentially in combatum but at the time you know it
didn't hit me like that I justremember coming back and telling

(50:34):
Sergeant Garcia that hey you gothim tomorrow I'm not going out
and yeah I don't have that as asolid I mean now that you're
really starting to talk about itI'm half like that's a a partial
memory but it I remembersomebody I remember somebody
getting in trouble for not beingon the trucks but I don't

(50:56):
remember any of the rest of thisthis is fascinating.
Yeah that was me uh so anyway soI talked to uh Garcia I don't
know if I talked to everybodyelse or not I think I might have
I think I did but at the time Imean in my mind I mean if I if I
was gonna die on that sort Imean I would do it because look

(51:18):
at what had we just done thelast couple days right I mean we
had been going this is myperspective I mean we had been
going nonstop yeah whether nomatter what section whether we
were taskable or or QRF I meanwe had been going nonstop right
we finally caught a little bitof downtime a little bit of

(51:40):
downtime before going out onwhat could be a 12 18 24 hour
mission nobody really knew andwe're trying to just get off of
our feet a little bit but nowwe're being asked to um sit in
our vehicles for a mission thatagain like I said I think it was

(52:03):
derived with good intentions anda good idea and all of that
stuff but I don't know that wenecessarily had the
infrastructure at the time tosupport it.
I mean they almost needed liketheir own QRF right if we were
going to do that.
And I don't think we had thebodies to support that.

(52:24):
And if we did have themsomewhere in the battalion it
definitely was not weaponscompany was my stance because we
were already supporting theentire battalion as a quick
reaction force and we couldn't Ijust didn't think that we had
the manpower I didn't think itwas prudent at the time to have
our only response unit at thatheightened stake for a for a

(52:49):
mission that had so many faultsright it had so many short
faults to it so did you did youend up going on the bug hunt or
did you so I did so I did sofast forward to the next morning
like we had Revely I don't knowwhat time it was it was early
because we were leaving I don'tknow what time we were across
the LOD but it was pretty early.

(53:10):
Yeah and I think Weiler or Dukeno it was Duke came back because
he slept right next to me saidhey get up I I was up anyway I
was getting up because I wasgoing to get everybody off and
and for some reason I had like aI had like a good feeling like I
just felt good about the guysgoing out because I just I knew
that they were so good and Iknew that they were in good
hands with Garcia that hey it iswhat it is um but then Duke said

(53:34):
hey you're going you're you'vebeen reinstated or something and
I've and I was back you know Iwas like I was like um you know
Willis Reed coming out for theKnicks you know I'm back um and
that and that was kind of it andI and I and it we went out on
bug hunt that day and and thatwas it and really nothing else

(53:56):
was ever spoke of it.
And I I think that just kind ofspeaks to the time that we were
in that people made emotionaldecisions at time at times and
then you would just have to whenyou had a little bit of time to
reflect on it's like oh wellmaybe maybe that wasn't the best
call or or how can we fix thisbecause if because if I'm taking

(54:20):
the fall then Captain Wyler'sgot to take the call too got to
take the fall too right becausebecause he's we're we're the
he's the one that told me to dothat or he's the one that at
least authorized me to do that.
So where does the buck stop youknow it's like oh well yeah that
doesn't that's not a rationaldecision like let's just put it
behind us and I don't know ifthat was why the bearded ladies

(54:44):
ceased to exist but that was theend of it.

SPEAKER_02 (54:48):
I don't know that anybody's ever talked about it
but you're absolutely correct inthat they were trying to do
something like a low profilepersonal security detail team
would do with zero amount of theassets that a low profile PSD
team would do.
So it it's it was a bad choice.
I mean it was a good concept andclearly I mean the uh the guys

(55:10):
across the river the ODA guysthey did the same exact things
uh but they have ODA levelassets and we did not yeah asset
in one of those large assets istraining right I mean you have
not I mean I think our ourqualifications were um fog a

(55:31):
mirror and be dark complexedright I mean I think it was
those two things you know canyou fog a mirror and are you
dark complexed and if you areand if you can then you can be a
member of this team.
And I just I just don't think itwas you know it it had its
downfalls looking looking backat it um it was it was it was an

(55:54):
interesting time you know I meanI think I mean I think Sakaki
was one of them right he was hewas yeah he's the un unnamed
Marine in the picture in uh theunremitting book of the bearded
ladies.

SPEAKER_01 (56:08):
Oh got it yeah and I think I mean I think he's asked
what is it I mean what is he'sJapanese yeah yeah he is he is
not Arabic in any way yeah rightyeah so it was it was
interesting it was a wellintentioned but kind of a you
know it's one of those thingsyou right I mean you you try
something it doesn't work so youadapt and that's that's what we

(56:30):
did but that one is kind ofstands out to me obviously
because I was essentiallyrelieved of my duties for a
night um in a short night ashort night at that um but it
was interesting and I don't knowhow many people know that I mean
I knew my section knew that Imean I knew I knew had no clue

(56:52):
officers knew it but um that waskind of well as you were as
we've gotten into it I'm I'm nowhaving a it's coming back but I
it but to your point it was soit was so short and and so
especially for me being in theother section you know or
platoon however you want to sayit but it just didn't it like I

(57:14):
heard about it but by the time Iprobably heard about it you were
already reinstated I I think I'ddone I think I had done what
most lieutenants in thatsituation would have done.

SPEAKER_00 (57:27):
I mean you have to find a way to get people some
rest.
I mean don't get me wrong I meanI I understand we're gonna have
we were all tired right I meanevery one of us was exhausted
but I think you need to uh finda way to get a little bit of
rest when you can and when thatwas thrust upon us I didn't

(57:48):
really think it was appropriate.

SPEAKER_01 (57:51):
And you're put you you know and I'm gonna pull on
this thread a little bit just toum that implicitly what you're
talking about is the reason whyuh I know I I'll speak for
myself have nothing but thedeepest love and respect and
appreciation for my commandstructure.

(58:11):
We had people going to bat forus as the enlisted person and
I've had you know in my shorttime in did have leadership that
wasn't willing to go back go tothe bat for you making sure that
you know that that troop welfarethat was a part of the mission
accomplishment too.

(58:33):
And the reason why we were sosuccessful in a really an un we
should not have been assuccessful as we were 2004 2nd
Battalion 4th Marines in Rumadiholding that city by ourselves
with little support littlepreceding tactics and etc we can
go on but the why we weresuccessful is because of the

(58:56):
command structure and you knowcommanders that were willing to
make the calls like you did andhold the line you know the what
the I don't know if you you youall had the same philosophy but
I know the philosophy that I wasalways told that an a good
officer is is catching as muchshit from sliding downhill as
possible and making sure that weunderstood what the mission was

(59:20):
we accomplished the missionwhile you catch shit.
Definitely appreciate you fordoing that.

SPEAKER_00 (59:26):
That's certainly one of that was one of my goals I
mean I had you know you have afew Marines always take up your
time when it comes to that Iknow prior to deployment we had
tried to intervene on a couplesituations that actually
actually um Sergeant Major and Ibecame pretty close because we

(59:47):
dealt with each other a lottrying to kind of run
interference on issues that acouple of the Marines had going
on.
So I had spent as a younglieutenant I had spent more time
in his office talking aboutthings and trying to get
solutions for different Marinesthan I think what is certainly

(01:00:08):
normal normal for a younglieutenant in the major office.
I mean we became pretty close.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:16):
I won't mention the the marine that I know you're
thinking of right now, but youthat was a tackle it was it was
but he was he was a spicy marine

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:29):
But we reap the rewards as well.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:31):
No, true.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:32):
By by how he performed.
And that's why you do thatbecause you need those types of
people.
And just you know, we didn't onething we didn't really touch on
was the awards process, whichwas a whole nother animal.
Um, especially at that time,because it's just the stats up

(01:00:54):
the marine work where units wereused to having.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:58):
Yeah, so that's go we have time.
So go go into anything that youwant to say about it.
Like what's what's your thoughtprocess?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:07):
Well, I just remember giving guidance or
having been giving guidance thathey, this is the time to, you
know, they have this awardspanel, and this, you know, this
level of awards can get approvedby you know this level of
command, and then anythinghigher has to go to this level
and stuff.
So just you know, the theguidance was talk to as many

(01:01:28):
people as you can, write up asmany awards as you can, and try
to reward everybody for whatthey did because what they did
was truly like even that likelooking back on it was
incredible.
But even even at that time, youknew like, holy cow, like this
was not something that happensevery day.

(01:01:49):
So, how do we how do werecognize these people for the
heroic actions that they did?
And it was um, and again, goingback, I mean, we had the biggest
bunch of 81s was the biggest, sowe had the most amount of
people, but we were also one ofthe most, I don't want to say
oh, we were the most engagedunit and all that stuff, but we

(01:02:09):
were definitely up there, right,as far as engagements goes,
because whenever there was a bigone, either we were there when
it started or we were there whenit finished.
Yep, so we were always there.
So, I mean, you could easilyargue that everybody in the
platoon gets at a minimum a Navycomp with the right easily,
easily, but like you just can'tyou can't do that, right?

(01:02:34):
Like, not everybody gets so wehad to kind of you know, between
Gunny Cook and I, we just had tokind of differentiate like who
did what, and it was it becamenot it became more of a um
cumulative award as opposed to asingle action because some of
the higher awards are obviouslysingle action and you have to

(01:02:56):
meet certain criteria.
But when you wrote up the awardsthat we did, and I wrote a lot
of them.
I mean, I definitely the most ofany platoon, and it wasn't
close.
But when you look at them, it'slike this is a NAM, this is a
NAM with B.
Like, look what this guy at anyother time, like this is at

(01:03:17):
least a bronze star, you know.
But like you can't the wholeplatoon, you can't write 50
bronze stars, you know, at once.
So it just kind of was a tough,it was uh you had to kind of
find the balance, you kind ofhad to find some level of
separation, and um the awardsprocess is meant to be
objective, but when you're inyou know sustained combat like

(01:03:40):
that for seven months, I mean Ithink it was just it kind of had
to be you kind of had to put itin the scope of that deployment
and pull things out, and I thinkthat I think we ended up with 20
some awards that I wrote, youknow, for valor, and I and I had
at least one or two peopleindicate to me that or insinuate

(01:04:06):
to me that hey, this is this isprobably too many awards for one
platoon.
And my response was something toto the effect of okay, well, why
don't why don't you read themand then any ones that don't
meet your criteria, why don'tyou decline them?
And we didn't have a single onedeclined.

(01:04:26):
So um it just kind of speaks towhat we did over there, and I
took a lot of pride in makingsure people were recognized for
what they did, but even though Idon't feel like we were able to
do that completely, because Ithink everybody deserved
probably more than what they gotat some level, um, but it did

(01:04:47):
dawn on me well after the factthat all of the things that
Savage did for the time that hewas with us up until May 12, I
mean, all of the things he didwas at least deserving of some
award looking at all these onesthat I mean from the April 7
machine gun engagement that hedid to the April 6th driving

(01:05:09):
around and engaging multipletargets.
Um and so at the time that wedid the awards, he was just he
was looked over, quite frankly,because he wasn't there anymore.
Um so around 2015 or 16, I thinkit's when I first kind of
started the exploring thepossibility of a posthumous

(01:05:33):
award for Savage for actionsthat took place 10 years prior.
And we were actually able to getthat done.
And and General Weiler and Iflew to Tennessee in 2018 and
presented his family with theNavy Com, Navy Commendation
Medal with B uh for actions thathe took in Iraq in 2004, 14

(01:05:57):
years after the fact, which umif you think it's difficult
getting awards at the time forpeople, try doing it 14 years
later when nobody who isprocessing the awards was even
in the Marine Corps at thattime, and they frankly didn't
seem to really care about it.
So um that's just kind of theyou know, we didn't have a ton

(01:06:20):
of guidance, and it was it waskind of let's let's try to
recognize as many people aspossible for these awards.
I mean, that was essentially it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:32):
Yeah, I I appreciate the awards that did go out, but
it seemed woefully inadequatefor what I witnessed personally,
and I personally tried to pushfor some awards for some of the
guys in map too.
And it sounds like it soundslike you did a great job getting
some people awards, but you'reright, probably everybody

(01:06:54):
deserved a little something.
And I guess there's no way to dothat.
It is a weird thing, but therewere units that came after us in
years following where there were30, 40, 50 uh easily NAMs with
V's, Navy columns with V's givenout to individual uh companies

(01:07:15):
and platoons, and so that's it'sI know it's disheartening for a
lot of people uh for that, andit's unusual.
Uh I know that at one pointthere was talk that well, we'll
give Captain Weiler a silverstar, and that's uh that's gonna
end up being like a companyaward for everybody.
And it's like, well, that'scertainly not how most people

(01:07:38):
who did things viewed it at thetime.
Uh 20 years on, maybe peoplehave a different feeling.
I I don't know.
But uh multiple people havementioned that exact same thing
that the awards process wasextremely convoluted and very
difficult because we were soearly in the heavy sustained
combat.

(01:07:58):
There just was not other marineunits that had gone through it
at that time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:02):
Yeah, no, I I couldn't agree more uh with that
take on it.
Um it it was uh you know not thefault of anyone, but it was it
was early, we were heavilyengaged, and the awards process
hadn't caught up with us yet, tobe honest with you.
And it just um and you again,you know, I hate to say this,

(01:08:26):
but we we did the best with withwhat we had, and and some people
got what they deserved and andsome didn't.
And that's that's too bad thatthat's how that cookie
scrambled, but it's just there'snot a there's not a good way
around it.
You know, you can talk all youwant about it, but um you know,

(01:08:47):
and a lot of it is you knowrelative to where you were and
and what what you were doing,you know.
Some of those engagements, ifyou know, they were basically
the people that didn't getrecognized were probably the a
victim to the amount ofengagements that we had.
I mean, some of thoseengagements, if that's all we
have, the whole, you know, if ifthat vehicle, if that ambush we
got on April 7 was the onlyengagement that the battalion

(01:09:09):
had the whole time, well,everybody's getting at least a
brown star minimum, right?
But since we did it the next dayand the next day and the next
day, then it becomes routine andit all becomes watered down, and
you kind of lose sight of thebig picture of what you actually
just did.
And yeah, I had that I've neverheard you know, his award

(01:09:32):
viewed, I never had heard thattake on it.
Um, but I can see where you knowwhere that could have been
communicated that way, andobviously that's that that's
that's not a good explanationbecause can everybody wear that
on their chest?
I mean, try putting that on yourchest and going out, you know.
Um you'll have uh solo valor,you know.

(01:09:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:56):
Right.
Yeah, I again that may have beenuh and I don't know who said
that.
I don't remember.
This may be some uh someenlisted scuttle butt as far as
that goes.
But uh that is definitely afeeling that and what was said
at the time.
And I don't think that he don'tI don't think that he doesn't
deserve that silver star.
I uh but I do think there shouldhave been some more other awards

(01:10:19):
uh pushed out on top of that.
If that if that was truly thefeeling, then there should have
been other awards given.
It's it's unusual to me.
But that's great.
I'm I'm I like hearing it fromyour perspective, and I can't
imagine how much shit you had togo through 14 years later to try
to get Savage any recognition,and truly appreciate you doing

(01:10:42):
that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:42):
Yeah, no, it was it was a lot, but uh uh well worth
it.
I think the most frustratingpart was just dealing with
people who didn't seem to care,you know, or or oh it got lost.
You know, it got lost a coupletimes, you know.
Um but uh well worth it.
I think we all agree.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:00):
Um for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:02):
So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:03):
Well, Dave, this has been great.
If there's anything else youwant to add, feel free.
Uh otherwise, I think we'll signoff.
And and this has been wonderful.
Thank you very much.
I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:15):
Yeah, no, that's that sounds good.
Um, enjoy talking with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:19):
It was great to talk to you.
Safe travels, uh, whateveryou're doing for work, hopefully
it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:25):
Has its moments.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:28):
All right, man.
Take it easy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:30):
Thanks again.
Take care.
Yeah, be safe.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:36):
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Morale, Morality and Mortality - Dave Dobb (Part 2 of 2)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Morale, Morality and Mortality - Dave Dobb (Part 2 of 2)