Morale, Morality and Mortality - Dave Dobb (Part 1 of 2) - Constant Combat

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:38):
All right.
Well, let's tell everybody whoyou are and what platoon you
were with and what rank you werein 2004.

SPEAKER_05 (00:44):
Yeah, I'm uh Dave Dobb.
I was a first lieutenant back in2004, and I was the 81's platoon
commander, but we have split upuh for that time into two
sections, uh sledgehammer andrainmaker.
So tactically, I I led theRainmaker uh platoon during the
uh 2004 deployment in Ramani.

(01:07):
But uh you know, during thattime I was also, it was kind of
a unique relationship.
I was also, you know, hadadministrative control over the
sledgehammer section.
So between Johnny Cook and I, wekind of handled things that way.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
That's interesting.
I didn't I didn't know that youhad still filled like sort of an
administrative commandingofficer billet uh with the other
section as well, although thatmakes sense because they are
technically both your platoons.

SPEAKER_05 (01:33):
Yeah, so when we did when it came time for fit reps,
you know, fitness reports or youknow, a war awards writing or
documentation of you know anytype of personnel action, you
know, that was you know, a lotof times I had to you know, we
didn't we kind of did everythinghand in hand, but especially for
those things, you know, writingwriting fitness reports or award

(01:55):
citations for guys that I wasn'twith during that time, you know,
had its challenges, but um, butwe we you know we were um close
enough uh during that time thatyou know we were able to make
that work.

SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
So uh question for you.
Um at what like how did you guysdecide on how did you split how
did you split up Rainmaker andSledgehammer?
Did uh did you know Gunny Cookand you uh do it like softball
league style and uh you knowjust pick pick the best players
and then divide up the best?

(02:30):
Or uh was there more of aprocess, or did that come from
like higher headquarters?
Did they help out with that?

SPEAKER_05 (02:35):
Well I recall it, and I don't have you know real
specific memories with how wedid that.
It was definitely definitelyhigher command was not involved
in that.
It was you know, we got thedirective that we were gonna
split, and I think it was kindof more like a almost like a
like a fantasy football drafttype of thing, where we're you
know, okay, you get him, you gethim, but then I, you know, you
get him, but then you get thisguy.

(02:56):
And we we tried to make it, youknow, and Blake, you can speak
to this too.
You know, 81s was a kind of aunique animal, and it always had
been for as long as you know Icould remember being in 2-4, and
this was my second deploymentwith 2-4.
So even going back to the priorOkinawa deployment, and then
even even the deployment beforethat, that it, you know, neither

(03:19):
of us was on, but we had heardabout it.
You know, 81s was just kind of a81s was a a big animal.
I mean, it's the biggest platoonto wise in the battalion, you
know, 60s.
I don't remember his act.
68.
Yeah, it's somewhere rightthere.
Um so you have a lot ofdifferent personalities.
So we tried to try to dividethem up, you know, between, you

(03:43):
know, personalities, um, youknow, tactical expertise, you
know, leadership traits, youknow, and all of those things to
try to come up with, you know,two units that would be able to
function effectively in combat.
And and I think you would takemyself and Gunny Cook because we

(04:04):
were different people too.
So we tried to get people thatwould complement each of us and
kind of uh would balance out inthe end.
And I think looking back at itand thinking about it during
that time, because I think wedid do some we did do some
shuffles, you know, we didn'tget it exactly right the first
time, but I think you know, dueto some casualties and and other

(04:26):
things over there, I think wedid we did make some trades, but
I think all in all, peoplegenerally ended up where they
started, and I think it was uh apretty good balance.
Um you might have something elseto say on that, but I think it I
think it worked out fairly well.

SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
No, actually I think uh I I kind of kind of assumed
uh what you outlined is kind ofhow they uh how you guys decided
to do that.
Um and I would say that we wereyou know from a intra-platoon
standpoint, it was divided up abalanced a balanced way because

(05:04):
as you did know, I mean not onlywas uh Gunny a uh an enlisted
guy, but uh you know,personality-wise and and and
whatnot, um needing to divide upassets, and I think we
functioned pretty well.
And actually the the best I canremember, and at least from my
uh vantage point, the any of theshuffling was not necessarily

(05:27):
due to a poor decisions in thebeginning, but more of facing
the realities of of theenvironment that we were then
in.
And uh, and you know, like justfor example, like the the
shakeup that we did uh as acompany level where we started
they've started pulling oversome people with more um other

(05:48):
tactical abilities, um,MOS-based um to help us out to
make sure that we were morefully rounded.

SPEAKER_05 (05:56):
Yeah, it was along the lines of you know, we we
would we lost a driver or twoalong the way, so we had to
shuffle a driver to somewhereelse, or someone else needed a
we, hey, we need a machinegunner, you know, okay.
I got this guy, and then weneed, you know, it was it wasn't
because oh, this guy can'tfunction with us, or this guy,
you know, this platoon is orthis this squad is inept, we

(06:17):
need to add experience to them.
It wasn't anything like that.
It was just it was just fillingneeds based on a constantly
changing environment.

SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Now, the nylon and uh I have joked over the years,
even when we were in that uhgoing back to a point that you
made that 81s is definitely aand I'd be and not that this is
the point of this conversation,but I would be curious if 81s is
81s across battalions or if 81if 2481s was uh a unique beast,

(06:46):
but um but we definitelyfunctioned even before we went
over, we functioned verydifferently.
We and I don't know if it'sbecause of the size or because
of how we run our guns, but wedid a lot more I don't know if
micromanagement's the rightword, but we were we were on top
of our people uh a lot more thanthe other ones.

(07:08):
Um and that's not taking awayfrom the other platoons, but
just we definitely were a littlebit more intense um and
definitely had stronger peoplethat enjoyed using their outside
voice um to get people to dowhat they wanted them to do.

SPEAKER_05 (07:26):
Yeah, I I think that's a good way of putting it.
I don't I don't know if 81 islike that, you know, across the
Marine Corps.
I think um but but I think youknow I can only speak to how it
was in 2-4 as that's the only uhyou know unit I had ever been
with.
Um but I do remember you knowchecking into the unit.
I checked into 2-4 in Novemberabout one, and they had come off

(07:48):
a deployment, and then I thinkit was either maybe
post-deployment or during thetail end of the deployment, I
don't remember exactly, but theyhad a a pretty good size hazing
scandal in which you know a lotof people were removed from
spots and relieved of duties andthat type of thing.
So that stigma kind of kind ofhung with 81s, I feel like.

(08:09):
So I feel like we were you knowunder a microscope at times,
even even though you know all ofthe leadership had changed over,
everybody knew that 81s, becausethere were some holdovers, you
know, we still had someholdovers in the platoon, and I
think that kind of kind ofstayed with us.
I mean, it stayed with me.
I mean, that was always in theback of my mind that hey, this
is the platoon that you know hadthis.

(08:31):
And it wasn't all you know, itwas just a different Marine
Corps then, too.
You know, they hadn't done thecombat deployment, so I think
things were looked atdifferently.
And I don't know that the thingsthat I don't know the details of
what happened, but those thingsthat happened may not have been
a big deal post this deployment,you know.
You know, I don't know.
Um, but it was just somethingthat was kind of unique.

SPEAKER_01 (08:51):
Yeah, there were two there were definitely two
Marines that were hurt duringhazing incidents, and then uh
around that time frame that youchecked in, there was also a
relatively large group ofMarines who were separated from
the Marine Corps due to uhpopping on urinalysis for drugs.
And so, and that was acrossmultiple different platoons, but

(09:14):
81s got hit by that as well by awith a few different people, and
so it was just a combinationeffort.

SPEAKER_05 (09:20):
Yep, and I had checked in, I went to golf
company at Weapons Platoon GolfCompany, and we had been dealing
with the tail end of some ofthose drug cops, too, who had uh
some of them had still beenhanging around for whatever
reason.
A couple at least one of themhad gone US who was still on the
books.

SPEAKER_04 (09:38):
Yep.

SPEAKER_05 (09:39):
So kind of dealing with uh with these that it was
it was interesting.
Were big issues then were youknow too big of issues after you
know our deployment just becauseof the environment that we were
in.
Um so yeah, I I kind of I cameup for golf company, so I I
dealt with with some of thatthere as well.
But 81s, I think just being, youknow, I think there's kind of a

(10:01):
bravado with 81s.
I mean, it's the biggestplatoon, it's the biggest guns,
you know.
So I think there's just kind ofa sense of pride in the
battalion, and you just want toyou kind of walk with a little
extra um swagger, I think.
And I think that is probablytrue throughout the Marine
Corps.
I don't know, that was kind ofmy take on it.
Maybe that's because that'swhere I was at, but you know,
that was kind of how I felt thatwas kind of how I felt about

(10:23):
81s.

SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
Dad was proud of his boys, right?
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (10:28):
I was gonna say I really like I really like that
take.
That is not the way I wouldframe it, but I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_05 (10:34):
Shane's probably rolling his eyes, you know, 81,
you know, fucking 81s, but youknow, like Blake knows where I'm
coming from.

SPEAKER_00 (10:42):
Yeah, I absolutely well, I I I ended up hanging out
with uh for how for whateverreason, I I I did about half and
half hanging out with 81s andthe and the rest of uh weapons
company platoons and stuff likethat as they were mixed up
throughout the time that I wasthere.
And uh I definitely had severalpeople from the other companies
uh be like, so what's up withyou guys in a very serious like

(11:07):
like like let's sit down andhave a conversation.
Now remind me, sir, when did youcome over to 81?
So that would have been afterOkinawa.

SPEAKER_05 (11:20):
Yeah, after Okinawa, we got back Okinawa 2003, summer
of 03, and then that's when alot of the senior lieutenants
had either you know separated orgone on to B billets, and then
the guys that you know did theirfirst pump on that deployment,
they did the big shuffle, andthen I ended up going to 81.

(11:40):
So it would have been shortlyafter the return from Okinawa,
so probably like August, uh, youknow, July, August,
September-ish of 2003.

SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
And is there like a and I know this is a weird
question, but is there like aselection process, or do you get
to say like, hey, I'd like to goto weapons company, or how does
that happen that you guys end upcoming to weapons company?
Because you were with golf, Ibelieve.
Uh JD Stevens was with golf aswell.

(12:11):
And as far as I know, DanCrawford was with somebody.

SPEAKER_05 (12:15):
JD JD was with um Echo Company.

SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (12:19):
And um and Crawford was with um Fox Company, I
believe.

SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (12:25):
Um but I was with golf.
I had the weapons platoon, sothat kind of made you know that
of course you get to give yourinput as to where you would like
to go after that firstdeployment.
I mean, the options are kind ofweapons company or company XO or
three alpha or three Bravo, butultimately, you know, it's not
it's not your decision.
Yeah.

(12:48):
And I had gone shortly aftergetting to golf company, they
had sent me to the MLOC down atFort Benning, which is the um
infantry mortar leaders course.
So I had I which is kind of aunique school for us to go to,
so I had that um under under mybelt.
And I, you know, having had theweapons platoon for a 12-month
deployment, it was just um, youknow, I had said I'd like to go

(13:09):
to 81s, they saw that as a goodfit.
So 81 81s it was.

SPEAKER_00 (13:14):
Yeah, Nyland knows my feelings on uh the supremacy
of uh mortars on thebattlefield.
So I think uh obviously I Iyou're a smart man, Dave.

SPEAKER_05 (13:23):
Well, stupid.
Well, I mean, in hindsight, Imean it I mean we didn't get to
deploy them a whole lot, so butanyways, it was still it was a
good spot to be at the time, andit was a good place to be.
I mean, I think weapons companyis always a good place to be.
We had a couple lieutenants, orat least one lieutenant that
checked into the battalion withme that went right to weapons
company as I believe the heavyguns platoon commander.

(13:46):
Um, so we we were all kind of inenvy of him for a little while.
So I was happy to finally makeit to Weapons Company.

SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
Was that uh oh McFadden, yes.
Yeah, he was with uh CatPlatoon.
He it was a mixed platoonbetween heavy guns and he was my
platoon commander in Okinawa.

SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
Yeah, yeah, and I think over in Oakie, you guys
also hung out with uh uhLieutenant Appert, too, if I
remember correctly.

SPEAKER_05 (14:11):
Yep, so he preceded me with 81s, so I got to know
John John pretty well.
He was obviously senior to me inthe battalion by probably you
know 12 to 18 months is kind ofusually how they gap us.
And then yeah, he was in thatthat prior wave, and then I had
come with a with a bunch ofguys, uh Stevens Crawford,
McMaddon, Caliphaetus.

SPEAKER_03 (14:32):
Oh yeah, nice Arnett.

SPEAKER_05 (14:34):
I don't know if Arnett rings a bell, he was in
that group too, and then justshortly after me was shortly
after that group was you know,Schickle and Rob Scott.

SPEAKER_02 (14:43):
Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (14:44):
They both went to golf.

SPEAKER_00 (14:45):
They we were all in golf company together when back
when Lieutenant Gaskell wasstill the XO and so coming into
the fall of 03, um, I know I'veheard well, General Kennedy now,
but uh talk about the process ofknowing that we were, you know,
more generally on deck, knowingthat we were on deck that we
were gonna get pushed prettyquickly after uh uh Okinawa.

(15:10):
But then it was, I think if Iremember his story correctly, it
was at the Marine Corps ball, soNovember, finding out that a
little bit more specificallywhere we were gonna go.
Was there deeper conversationsabout well, what does this
exactly look like?
Here's the here's the trainingevolution, um, getting brought
into at the battalion level, orwere you just holding on tight
and giving us good training atthe platoon level?

(15:33):
What was the planning process?

SPEAKER_05 (15:35):
Yeah, I don't remember.
I don't remember, yeah, I don'tremember a lot of specifics with
respect to you know, we're doingthis because this is where we're
going.
It was more of a generalized,you know, desert type, you know,
town environment training thatwe were gonna do.
And and you can be assured thatanything that I was getting

(15:57):
behind the scenes, you guys werealso getting it.
Um, it wasn't, you know, therewasn't this grand plan behind
the the scenes that was beingdrawn up that wasn't being
shared with you guys, you know,and and and I realize that
sometimes there may have been alull in communications, and it
it wasn't because we werewithholding it, it was just
because we didn't have it.

(16:18):
Um I I know behind the scenes,dude, they were working behind
the scenes to come up with themost, you know, realistic
training they could.
And I I do remember doing well,we went, I don't remember
exactly where it was, but theykind of did a mock-up of an
Iraqi March town.
I mean, the best yeah, we did wedid March, and then I feel like
we did we did somewhere elsethat I think was on Camp

(16:39):
Metalton too, that we just theydid a it was a pretty um you
know ad hoc.

SPEAKER_01 (16:44):
Um that was just out in the backyard out behind San
Mateo.
Uh something that that was puton between a couple of battalion
assets, but largely uh GunnyMaroki was involved in getting
that organized.

SPEAKER_05 (16:56):
Yep, that sounds right.
So just the best things that wecould come up with with the
equipment and time that we had,which you know, we're short on
both of those.
So I think just giving some, youknow, doing the best we could
with with what we had and andreally not knowing, having no
way of knowing what we weregoing into at the time.

SPEAKER_00 (17:15):
Yeah, my memory of that time period was I would um
there was a bunch of schoolslots that had gotten opened up,
uh, allowing us to grab slots.
And I I ended up not trainingvery much with 81s because um
y'all kept sending me to the thelike multi- I think I went to
like five different fivedifferent division schools back
to back, um all the way up untilbasically uh only a few weeks

(17:40):
before we actually deployed, youjust pushing knowledge to that
way we had some people that hadat least some frame of reference
when we got over there so wecould adapt and overcome.

SPEAKER_05 (17:49):
So yeah, so people like you, and and there were
there were others, but you know,we would push you, you know, the
the people who we thought wouldbe best at you know coming back
and relaying what they learnedto everybody else, you know,
that's who we would send.
I actually went to one, I don'tknow if you you guys were there
was a couple people from theunit.
It was led by Pat Rogers.

(18:11):
It was more of a tacticalshooting course where we would
just go out and I think for Idon't know if it was just a week
or 10 days, but we would justshoot, we would do shooting
rails all day, all day long.
And I ended up going to that onebecause nobody else wanted to
go.
So I was like, fuck it, I'll go.
You know, so I was gone for aweek just showing up and
shooting, you know.
That when I got and it wasactually it's too bad that we

(18:33):
couldn't have put you know thethe whole unit through that
because really that's that'swhat we needed.

SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
I was gonna say that's what you ended up doing.

SPEAKER_05 (18:41):
I mean, I I became pretty damn proficient, you
know, with the bank changes andeverything.
So um it's just a repetitionthing.
So I yeah, I do remember, youknow, due to the upcoming
deployment, we got a lot ofschool slots, and then we just
had to between Gunny Cook and I,we would just have to fill it
with who we thought, you know,and then you had you had other
things mixed in, and it wasn'tjust most capable Marines, it

(19:02):
was well who's who's on leave orwho has this going on and all
that type of stuff to to try toget the but the you know the
people through that would mostbenefit the whole of the unit.

SPEAKER_01 (19:12):
Now, fast forwarding to the actual Ramadi deployment
itself, did you end up drivingup with from Kuwait, or were you
part of the element that flew upuh and landed in Alasan?

SPEAKER_05 (19:22):
No, so I actually I drove up and I I don't even know
if I came with most of myplatoon because I I stayed back.
I was one of the last ones toleave because if you recall, we
had a Marine in Echo Companycommit suicide.

SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 (19:37):
So uh Mils Ark, uh Matthew Milsark committed
suicide.
So the the battalion needed anofficer to conduct the command
investigation into that or thethe inquiry into that, and that
was me.
So I had to stay back andinterview Marines and and
formulate that whole that'sinteresting.

SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
I I didn't realize that was part of your duties,
and that's that's something Iwould not even have considered.
Uh, what does that entail doingin the investigation?
Just asking everybody sort ofthe his surrounding events,
yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (20:08):
Really just interviewing everybody who had
interaction with him, who whoknew him, um, and then just
coming up with a document, youknow, showing all the the
findings of facts that you foundduring the investigation.
And it's just it's a prettyformal process.
It's the battalion XL MajorRiley was was overall the
command representative on that,but it's a typically, you know,

(20:30):
the responsibility of a juniorofficer to to conduct that.
And that and that is somethinglike a lot of things in the
Marine Corps that you don't geta lot of training on.

SPEAKER_01 (20:40):
No, that was gonna be my next question is what
guidance did you get?
Because that's that's a prettyserious investigation to just be
thrown into.

SPEAKER_05 (20:47):
Very much so.
And and it wasn't, you know, itwas more it's more of a
fact-finding mission, notnecessarily a um, you know, this
is why it happened type ofinvestigation.
But yeah, very little.
And I think I I think heacquired a go by for me from a
case that was you know notapplicable at all, but it it

(21:08):
showed me the you know themargins I needed to use and the
spacing I needed to have on thedocument and that type of thing.
But I mean that was but I tookthat you know it's a serious
responsibility, you know, and Ispent hours and hours, you know,
interviewing people, you know,writing and drafting, drafting
the document, and you know,ultimately it you know it goes
up for approval, and it was avery time-consuming uh process

(21:31):
to be doing, you know, justprior to it.

SPEAKER_01 (21:34):
I was gonna say, especially when you're right
about to cross the uh uh line ofdeparture and head into a combat
zone.
It's like, hey, here, take thisvery serious but very
administrative task.

SPEAKER_05 (21:44):
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, so I came up afterthat was complete, you know.
I kind of got on, I think it wasabout the last the last convoy
up, you know, and the back ofseven tons that came in.
I think most of the guys werealready up there.
It was on the tail end comingup.

SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
So you and you didn't ride with anybody from
your platoon then?
So you were just chilling in theback of a seven ton with other
people.

SPEAKER_05 (22:05):
Well, I don't I don't know that for sure.
I mean, it was definitely alltwo four marines.
I don't know if it was all ofyou know Rainmaker or not.
Yeah, um, but it was definitelydefinitely the the tail end.
I mean, I do remember riding upthere, but I don't remember who
I was with.
I mean, I remember obviouslycoming into the city like most
people do and and seeing thefaces of the locals the the

(22:26):
unwelcoming faces of the locals,and yeah, and I I remember that
pretty vividly, but not so muchwho I was with.
I just know that we were webrought up the tail.

SPEAKER_01 (22:36):
Yeah, I think everybody has a st well, maybe
not everybody, but most peoplehave a story of coming into the
market square and just everybodystopping and staring and mostly
giving you the stink eye, likethey did not want us there at
all.
There was there was zero amountof people who were saying hello.

SPEAKER_05 (22:53):
Yeah, and I think the guidance given to us was to
wave and smile, and I think andI think for the most part we
tried to do that, but then at acertain point it was like, okay,
we look stupid now.
Like this is this is stop likethis is not being received well.
Like, let's let's that was theplan, that was the plan, but
then you you adapt to thecircumstances, right?

SPEAKER_00 (23:15):
So so we adapted, and I think the smiles kind of
went away and the wavingstopped, and we were just kind
of that was still when ourtactical uh and strategic mind
strategic mindset was hearts andminds, right?
And uh that uh that's that didshift.
Uh not that we weren't trying toget hearts and minds, uh, just

(23:36):
in perhaps different ways.

SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
So then you got there and you broke out into
separate platoon.
Who was in your truck with you,Dave?

SPEAKER_05 (23:46):
Well, um Regelsberger was the driver.

SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
Yep.

SPEAKER_05 (23:50):
And then we had Savage on the on the gun, and
then we had Doc Contreras was inthe back.
And I think you know, those werekind of the mainstays.
But I think, you know, beyondthat, I think, you know, I think
it changed, I think it changed alittle bit depending on the
mission or or whatever.
I don't remember who was alwayswith us, but I I do know that

(24:12):
you know those those three arethe most that I had.
Those three were always there,and I think uh everyone else
maybe you know fluctuated alittle bit.

SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
And then everything got pretty serious pretty fast,
right?
We rolled up from Kuwait March6th, and the first serious
casualty was a week later withMcPherson, and then a week after
that was uh the bike IED thatthat caught Warth in the eye,
which was your platoon as well.

SPEAKER_05 (24:43):
Yeah, we got into it pretty quick, and although you
know McPherson was golf company,he was one of my Marines during
that first deployment.

SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
That was gonna be my question, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (24:52):
Yeah, and he was one that I was you know probably,
you know, I was closest with himas I was with anybody in golf
company.
So I think well I know that thatone hit me pretty hard, and it
kind of opened my eyes like holyshit, this is it got real quick,
you know.
Um I knew they didn't like us,but it it escalated quickly.

(25:14):
Um, so that one, you know,McPherson hit pretty hard, and
then just hearing the details ofhis wounds, you know, that that
one hurt, and then thenobviously we go to worth, which
is he's one of your own, youknow, I'll be a you know
sledgehammer, but like I said,he was he was one of ours, so
that that hit hard too.
But as you guys know, I meanvery little time to dwell on it,

(25:35):
you know, you gotta you knowlearn from it and and move on.
But yeah, it it escalated quick,and then and then right around
that time of worth was whenLieutenant Kaler, the XO, the
the then the XO of Echo Companywas seriously wounded, and he
was he was one of my bestfriends of the battalion.
He was later the best man in mywedding.

(25:56):
I was in his wedding, and hewas, you know, at the time he
was evacuated, we didn't know ifhe was gonna make it or not.
And obviously he ended up makingit, but that was right around
that same time in March.
So we had you know multiplemultiple casualties then that
both hit pretty close to homefor me.

SPEAKER_01 (26:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Um it I don't think peoplerealize how fast it ramped up in
intensity, and that's kind ofwhy I brought that up is that
you know, most people came up onMarch 6th.
There's a few people showed uplater March 7th, 8th.
March 13th was McPherson's jawblown off, and then the 20th was
worth being blinded, losing aneye.

(26:32):
And then Fox Company had aMarine killed uh from an RPG
attack, and it may not may nothave been Rainmaker, but it was
Sledgehammer, I believe, wentout to that as the response.

SPEAKER_05 (26:44):
Yep, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_01 (26:45):
And yeah, and then uh March 25th was when Echo
Company was able to ambush thoseguys with all the mortar gear,
and then right after that, onthe 26th, was when the mosques
started calling for killing ofAmericans, and everything
escalated from there.
Obviously, the Blackwatercontractors killed in Fallujah,
and then everything startedgetting getting wild shortly

(27:06):
thereafter.
Uh to my remember, and this isjust me remembering, moving
forward to the the actual battleof Ramadi.
Map one was out and in the southof Ramadi and did that
coordinate knock and caught uhAdnan Farhan, and then Golf
Company was ambushed off of EasyStreet, and Map 3 went out

(27:27):
first, but you guys went outsecond.
Is that correct, Dave?
You went out and backed up Map 3and Golf Company in the south of
the city?

SPEAKER_05 (27:34):
Now, what date are you talking?

SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
This is April 6th, the first day of officially of
the Battle of Ramadi.

SPEAKER_05 (27:41):
Yeah, so the 6th, we were out and we kind of I think
our first link up was out at thegovernment center.
Okay.
I think it started right in thevicinity there.
Echo was the golf was prettyheavily engaged by the
government center, and we werecalled there to reinforce golf
company, and we had he backed acouple casualties back to the
combat outpost, and then we metup with Colonel Kennedy and

(28:06):
Major Harold down there as well,and then we headed up to um Echo
Company, who was that's whenEcho Company was surrounded up
north of Route Nova.

SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
Yeah, around Route Nova.
That was when you guys Iremember you showing up and
joining up with us around RouteNova.

SPEAKER_05 (28:22):
Yep, yep.
So I think that was we ended upwe ended up in the city, and
then we ended up pushing upnorth to the river to assist
them.

SPEAKER_01 (28:30):
Now I'm curious I'm curious when you're around the
government center and they wereambushed, did you guys meet
heavy resistance?
This is where um while I reallyappreciate that book,
Unremitting.
Uh I really think it's a greatdepiction of everything that
happened with Golf and EchoCompany.
I I feel like I I saw you quotedin there a couple of times, and
then it just sort of falls shortof any sort of description of

(28:52):
what happened.

SPEAKER_05 (28:53):
Yeah, so when we rolled off on the sixth, it
wasn't they were not heavilyengaged at that time.
Now they had been, but when whenwe showed up, you know, it has
had largely dispersed, and therewas you know periodic pot shots
and that type of thing, butthere wasn't heavy engagement at
that time.

SPEAKER_04 (29:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (29:12):
Um, and then we did assist in evacuing some
casualties, and then we had goneto and from the city out to
combat outpost a couple times,and each time, you know, going
back and forth, we hadencountered some resistance.
So I remember you know, Savagewas you know on top of the gun
at that time, and we were havingto fight our way back and forth

(29:32):
a little bit, but I wouldn'tcall it heavily engaged.

SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
Okay, nothing that stopped your progress anyway.

SPEAKER_05 (29:38):
No, nope, it was like we were just we're moving,
hey, look, you know, one behindthe hill, and then we would
suppress it and and kind of moveon as we were trying to get the
casualties back, and then welinked up with uh the CO and
OPSO there in the city, and thenwe uh linked up and went north.

SPEAKER_01 (29:55):
Yeah, yeah, that was I remember that specifically uh
on the sixth that you guysshowed up when the where the
snipers and some of the QRF fromEcho Company were pinned down on
the north end of Nova, and weended up uh stealing your
vehicle, your vehiclespecifically, uh and
Regelsberger as the driver toevac those guys off to Junction

(30:16):
City.

SPEAKER_05 (30:17):
Yeah, and actually, as I'm thinking this out, and I
should have known this, when welinked up and we had a north, it
wasn't it wasn't ColonelKennedy, it was Colonel uh
Captain Weiler at the time.

SPEAKER_01 (30:27):
It was.
It was Captain Wyler.
Yeah.
Captain Wyler was the one in thenorth.

SPEAKER_05 (30:31):
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
I misspoke.
I misspoke on that.
But yeah, it was directed byKennedy and Harrow, but it was
it was Weiler that we linked upwith and headed north.

SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
And so once you guys came through the Sophia
District, I I remember verydistinctly when you guys pulled
up because I was I I don't know.
I was surprised that youarrived.
I expected you to get hemmed uplong before you ever got to us.
You didn't meet any resistancecoming up through the Sophia
district at all?

SPEAKER_05 (30:56):
No, no, not that I recall.
And even when we got up there onRoute Nova and we were pushing
to the east, and then we hadkind of and then we had word
that um you know people weremissing and that type of thing.
So that's when we dismounted andkind of pushed off.
I mean, there was someresistance and we provided some
suppressive fire, but yeah,there was major.

SPEAKER_01 (31:18):
There was sort of that last push by the insurgents
at that point where there was nothree or four guys that had come
through the field.
But it was you're right, it wasnot not heavy resistance in any
way by the time we got to thoseguys that were missing.

SPEAKER_05 (31:28):
Yeah, I know we kind of came in guns ablazing, and I
think a lot of people were happyto see us.

SPEAKER_01 (31:34):
Yeah, that's a good way to do it.

SPEAKER_05 (31:36):
Which was usually the case when we when we showed
up.

SPEAKER_01 (31:39):
Yeah, yeah.
And then uh we ended up linkingup with there was a two Bradleys
that came rolling down uh fromthe east side of Nova, and that
was when all the evacs startedhappening.
And I don't know who elseevacked people, but I know we
stole your high back, and mytruck and your high back went
and evaced uh two of the snipersand someone else, the third
person, but I don't know who hewas with.

SPEAKER_05 (31:59):
Yeah, and I think that that's when um Colonel
Connor, you know, from the fromthe army unit from the army, he
he was out there, and and thefact that you I mean this is a
whole different topic, but thefact that you know you
referenced the high back.
I mean, the fact that we wererolling around in highbacks is
just insanity, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (32:21):
As we found out and we knew at the time, but you
know, that's what just one ofthose things that you just
didn't know, you know, you gowith what you have and yeah, and
the it uh lightly speaks to youin that you chose to be in a
high back uh uh out of all thevehicles you could have chosen
to jump into.
Uh I don't know that I wouldchoose to be in a high back.

(32:42):
I definitely would have been ina high back, but I don't know
that I would choose it.

SPEAKER_05 (32:47):
Yeah, and I don't know that I chose it either.
Um, but it was uh you know, wehad we had the plywood over top,
you know, right over our heads,you know, up in the cabin.
Um I don't know if that wassupposed to provide some level
of protection or or not, butthen we had the you know the
L-shaped doors that were on, andthen we had some some iron on

(33:07):
the back that you know, a lot ofthat was acquired in Kuwait.
You know, and Savage kind of ledthat effort of basically
dumpster diving what the armyhad left behind, yep, and find
and finding what we could useand affixing it to our vehicles,
which it was genius at the time,but we didn't know how much we
needed it, but it was it wasn'ta lot, but it it was something,

(33:29):
you know.
So um, and then over time wefound that you know the the
vehicles were not equipped tohandle all of the added weight
that we had been.

SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
No, no, they all looked like they were bow legged
going down the road as thesuspension collapsed.

SPEAKER_05 (33:43):
Right, and then at some point we got actual doors
to go on them, you know, withthe thick glass windows, I think
that were actually made to go uhyou know provide some level of
protection too.
But but again, I mean thatreally um you know took its toll
on the vehicles over time.

SPEAKER_01 (33:58):
Yep.
Yeah, the original thinking withthe plywood tops over the top of
the canvas in the highbacks wasthat if you had to fire to the
rear, there was no possible wayfor the gunner to jump because
the way the pintle mounts were,there was no possible way for
the gunner to jump up on thatroof without falling through.
And so we screwed plywood ontothe top as it was we we didn't

(34:22):
have anything else.
Uh we had we had a whole stackof 20 sheets of uh construction
grade plywood and a saw, and wewere like, well, this is what we
have, and so we put it on.

SPEAKER_05 (34:33):
Like I said, I mean you you go with what you have,
um that's what we did.

SPEAKER_01 (34:38):
And then moving forward from there, uh, this is
my memory, again, you tell me,but uh April 7th, as far as I
recall, map three was the firstout the gate, and our exo, uh
Lieutenant Wells, went out withmap three, and there was some
fighting down in the south ofthe of the city near the soccer

(34:58):
fields, and you guys were secondout the gate, but not long
after.
I mean, it was minutes after 30minutes, 45 minutes, and then
you were out the gate.

SPEAKER_05 (35:07):
Yeah, we were pretty quick, and I don't I don't
recall specifically them goingout first, but I do remember
that we went out pretty early.
Golf company was heavily engageddown south, so we were called to
reinforce them, and we we headout, uh headed east, and then we
took that right going down.
I believe it is sunset.
And I'm in the lead vehicle, andthen we banged that kind of a

(35:31):
soft left that you turn, and andwe got about two or three
vehicles had made that turn, andthen just gunfire erupted, and
we had been ambushed by uhmedium machine guns right off
our left flank.
There was a a house, a compoundwith a gate around it that they
had had a medium machine gun setup behind, and they just opened

(35:53):
up on us, and it was you know,initially just you know, you're
that close, it's almost youknow, the the noise is just you
know paralyzing, and um, all ofa sudden, you know, we were you
know almost instantaneous in ourresponse and Savage, especially
because I distinctly rememberhis gun about two feet behind my

(36:14):
ears just started going off, andand everybody else in in turn
just you know immediatelyresponded and it you know it
felt like a lifetime, but it wasprobably 10 or 15 seconds, and
the dust had kind of kind ofsettled, and so and a lot of the
guys had you know, we had youknow dismounted and you know
we're they were pushing north,and I was down on the road, I

(36:36):
stayed down on the road, I wason the radio trying to
communicate back what hadhappened.
I didn't really know what hadhappened at the time, except
that we were ambushed, butobviously our mission there was
to help golf, was to back upgolf companies.
So we were although we had asituation, immediate situation
we had to deal with, you know,our priority, you know, was
still to get the golf company.

(36:57):
So as soon as our situationthere was rectified, we shifted
our focus back to getting togolf company.
So that was kind of our first,you know, we had had some
sporadic contact up until then,but that was kind of the first
first big sustained ambush,first big sustained contact that
kind of really created that fogof war that you know you read

(37:20):
about, you talk about, but youcan never really simulate until
it happens.
It's kind of like the Mike Tysonquote that everybody has a plan
until they get punched in theface, you know.
So that that was that was kindof that was that for Rainmaker
specifically.

SPEAKER_01 (37:37):
So that's a perfect transition and segue to
something I really wanted to askyou specifically.
Uh so you ended up beingbasically attached to the truck
because that's where your radiowas.
Did you find it hard to do sortof a command and control because
you had very limited assets?

(37:58):
Like we didn't have we didn'thave drones, most of us did not
have GPS devices.
Uh I think we got a Blue Forcetracker very late in the
deployment, and we only had one.
Um there was just so so fewthings, and we had those you
know, printed paper maps, butotherwise trying to figure out
where other units were and whatwas going on was difficult, at

(38:18):
least for me.
I'm curious what yourperspective was.

SPEAKER_05 (38:21):
Yeah, no, it definitely was challenging.
I mean, because I was I was nearthat vehicle all the time.
I mean, I you know, really forthe radio purposes, and you
know, I think tactically, Imean, I I think our it probably
made sense for me to be by thatvehicle, but I didn't really
have a choice because you knowcommunication is so key.
You know, because when you youknow, what do they always say?

(38:43):
You know, lack of comms is athat's a leadership issue, you
know.
So you have to you have to beyou have to maintain comms at
all costs.
So if I'm a couple hundredmeters away from the radio and
you know, I needed tocommunicate or some or someone
needed to communicate with me,you know, that was that was uh
that was on me.
So um yeah, I mean it definitelyput a level of res restraint,

(39:08):
but I think most of the time Ithink that's where I would have
been anyway, because that's kindof how our platoon we were
within an earshot of the vehiclemost of the time.
I mean, whether we were doingthe satellite patrolling through
the city or you know,dismounted, you know, clearing a
house.
I mean, we were typically fairlyclose to a vehicle anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (39:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (39:28):
I mean, we were a little different than the line
companies in that we weren'tjust out there with one vehicle
and in you know, 35 marines orsomething like that.
We were you know, the vehiclewas kind of our pub of
operations, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
Right.
And so then going forward fromthere, it's uh you know, we had
the Operation County Fair onApril 8th.
It's sort of a small-scalecordon.
I don't remember specificallywhat uh Rainmaker's portion was
of that, but I know that therewasn't really much sustained
contact as far as that goes.
There were some weaponsrecovered, there was quite a few
field hospitals found.

(40:02):
But then April 10th was thefirst bug hunt, was what they
named it, and that was up northin the Sophia district.
What was uh what was yourunderstanding of what was going
on on that day?

SPEAKER_05 (40:14):
Yeah, so what I recall on that is we had a
pretty specific cordon area thatwe were supposed to hold, and we
did meet some resistance goingout there.
I don't think it was initial,but I think it was after the sun
came up.
I remember moving down the road,and I remember distinctly that
you know there was a guy poppingout with an RPG and he missed,

(40:36):
and then we saw him though, andand Garcia, sergeant uh Philips
Garcia, who was my platoonsergeant at the time, had seen
him, and he said something to melike essentially, hey, I got him
next time he comes out.
And it wasn't long after thatthat he did pop out.
Garcia shot him, he shot it, andhe and he had him, and then as

(40:57):
we kept on moving up, wefollowed the trail of blood into
the house, and he was in a sometype of closet in a bedroom, and
we you know he was still aliveat the time, and I just
remember, and I think that thisis is written pretty well about
in the in the book on remittingit that I was standing over him,

(41:19):
and then he grabbed my weapon,and I something that sticks with
me to this day that I'll neverforget is the amount of the will
to fight that he still had, eventhough he was you know ended up
being so close to death.
Um, you know, he grabbed the themuzzle of my weapon and I you
know went to jerk it away andhis whole body came up and I

(41:39):
ended up having to use my tobasically foot stomp him to let
go of my weapon.
And if you know, uh I was apretty good sized guy, you know,
and it took everything I had,you know, to get him off of the
muzzle, and then we ended upmoving him back to one of the
Humvees, you know, for transportuh to an aid station, but I
think he expired prior to that.

(42:00):
So that's something that sticksin my mind that day.
And then as we continued to pushup north towards the river, we
had located a field hospitalthat you referenced, and then
there was uh sporadic contactstill towards the river and
north, and I I just specificallyremember you know Hodges being
up there, and then we had Lion Sunits with us that day.

(42:22):
We were one of the they were oneof the first Lion S units to
actually go out in Iraq, andthey were I believe they were
they were uh soldiers, I Ibelieve.

SPEAKER_01 (42:33):
Yeah, that was the only ones I saw were all army.
And I I am curious, did you didyou have any say on picking who
went or anything like that?
I never knew how the Lion Steams got picked and then who
they rode with, because theyalmost never rode with my
platoon.
Uh, and they rode, it seemedlike they rode with you guys in
map three a couple of times.

SPEAKER_05 (42:54):
Yeah, no, I don't think we had a yeah, I don't
recall having a say.
And I mean it was they may havesaid, Hey, are you open to this?
And of course we were open toit.
I mean, especially, I mean,yeah, Hodges, so you think he's
gonna turn down some womencoming out with him, you know?
I think most I think most of theguys would have welcomed that um

(43:15):
at that time.
And they were and I think theyhad met them prior to going out
and they were pretty gung-ho andmotivated, you know.
And and when we got out there, Imean it was they backed it up.
I mean, it was they weredefinitely an asset.
I mean, they were an asset forthe intended purpose of you know
being able to search females andand all that type of stuff, but
but when it came time that theyhad to pick up a weapon and use

(43:38):
it, I mean they were competentto do that as well.
So I think I think all in all itwas uh it was a success.

SPEAKER_00 (43:45):
There was uh there's a staff sergeant, I feel like
maybe Aaron maybe was her name,I can't remember, but um I
remember that she was solid anda cup, you know, when things
went down, there was no concernthat she was going to be a
warrior also.

SPEAKER_05 (44:00):
Yeah, I think we would feel the same way.

SPEAKER_01 (44:02):
I imagine there was a lot of pressure, and they
probably only took people whospecifically wanted to go
outside the wire.
And so there's a little bit of aself-selection process, or at
least there had to have been.
And they all, yeah, they allseem very ready to participate.

SPEAKER_05 (44:15):
Yeah, I would I would imagine they had a
screening process, and you know,I don't know what was said to
them behind closed doors, but itwas you know something to the
effect of you know, if you fuckthis up, it's never gonna happen
again, type of thing.
This is the one chance.

SPEAKER_00 (44:34):
You have the entire uh female population riding on
your shoulders.
Uh no problem.
So so actually the lioness thatmade me uh popped in my head is
uh kind of one uh anothersupport element that we had some
crazy ups and downs with, and Ifelt just because of my
relationship of how I wasdealing with them, but uh the

(44:56):
interpreters.
Did you what were what were yourrelationships with the
interpreters?
Um and I guess what I'mspecifically thinking of is is
that the first set that we got,I think half of them were bad
dudes, and we ended up theyended up all getting taken out
in one way or another.
And then we had another roundthat were Moroccans who didn't

(45:16):
they spoke Moroccan and so theywere as worthless as somebody
that didn't even speak Arabic.
And then we ended up with uh agood handful of, you know, you
had Rocco and Qasm or Wilbur andthen Danny, I think the other
guy's interpreter's name was,but uh I know some platoons ran
more heavy with uh interpretersthan others.
Um did you I I don't know whatRainbab Rainmaker did.

SPEAKER_05 (45:40):
Yeah, we didn't really have an assigned one.
I think we would grab one whenone is was available and we
needed one.
I mean, I remember Rocco wellbecause he was kind of the
company, the main company one,and I remember Wilbur.
But I didn't, you know, I readthese books and listen to these
things about these guys that oh,they brought their interpreter
to the United States and allthis stuff, which is all great,

(46:02):
but I just didn't have any typeof relationship with any of them
like that.
We just didn't we didn't havethe same one consistently.
I mean, we just you know, as yourecall, I mean, we didn't have
enough of them, so you wouldkind of if one was available,
you would grab them, but if not,you would just go with what you
had.
So I never really developed aclose relationship with anybody,

(46:24):
with any of them.

SPEAKER_00 (46:26):
Did you end up having anybody in the platoon
that um went to that Arabicschool slash and or picked up
Arabic over there that helpedyou uh navigate some of the
language barriers?
Or do you not feel like a lot ofyour missions required you to
have that level of interactionthat required you to talk?

SPEAKER_05 (46:46):
I think going over there that was kind of the
thought that it would be reallybeneficial, and I think it I
think it is to some extent, butI think the vast majority of our
missions for you know what ourmissions turned out to be, it
really wasn't needed.
And you look at some of thesethe lining companies kind of had
a specific AO that they weredealing with, right?

(47:09):
So they were dealing with a lotof the same people day in and
day out, and I think that mighthave been you know more
beneficial to them to havesomeone to really communicate
with.
But whenever we went out, I meanwe were in the whole city, so
our radio was the entire city,so we were in a different place
every day, we weren't seeing thesame people.

(47:30):
So I mean, we I don't think wewere some of those relationships
that some of the companies mayhave had, and and we were not on
foot either most of the time,right?
So we're you know, we're drivingby, and I think our engagement
with people was probably lessthan the line companies.

SPEAKER_00 (47:49):
That makes a lot of sense.
That makes sense.
Oh no, it it does.
I I I my perspective is justslightly different just because
I was did get sent to the Arabicschool when then I kind of got
pushed into being a little bitmore of a forward-facing uh and
so my relationship, and so nowthat you've described it that
way, I'm realizing now thatespecially as a weapons company,

(48:10):
all those interactions that Iwas having where I was trying to
communicate was because I wassent out on a hit or was a part
of a door element uh during bughunts and stuff like that, where
I was being asked to be an extraliaison.
So that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_05 (48:26):
And it's not yeah, and it's not to say that it
wasn't beneficial when we hadthem or there wasn't a use for
them with us, because theredefinitely was.
I mean, we had times that wewere we were doing coordinates,
we were doing searches, we weregoing into multiple houses.
So it was when we had it, it itwas beneficial, but I felt like
it wasn't necessarily, you know,mission essential all of the
time.

(48:46):
And like it wasn't gonna, weweren't gonna wait or you know,
postpone a mission to get aninterpreter, you know, because
we had enough people that Ithink could communicate what we
needed to get across withouthaving to that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 (49:01):
That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 (49:02):
Speaking of interpreters, now uh a memory
popped in my head that one ofthe two of you, and I I I
believe it was Rainmaker, uh,was on the inner coordinate
element, and we had those, wehad a new interpreter.
I I don't remember his name.
I do remember he was fromDetroit.
He was not from No and forwhatever reason, uh someone made

(49:24):
the command decision to allowthe interpreter to carry a gun.
And he shot himself in the footand shot an Iraqi police person
uh while we were on the cordon.
Do you happen to remember that,Dave?

SPEAKER_05 (49:37):
I do remember that, and that was right outside of a
large mosque over by the soccerstadium.
Is that right about?

SPEAKER_00 (49:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
100%.

SPEAKER_05 (49:47):
I should know the name because I remember the
there was lights, yeah, therewas lights flashing, and you
know, I I remember it, but Idon't remember all of the
specific details, but I do I doremember that.
That was not my decision to givehim the gun.
I will say that.

SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
So so I actually I I I do have a few more de a few
more details becauseSledgehammer was there also.
I I think it was a it was a itwas a bigger it was a bigger
move that we were doing becausebecause we were actually making
it was one of the first times uhthat we were going to try to
make an official entry into amosque.

(50:29):
Into a big mosque.
Into a big mosque.
And so we pulled out quite a fewelements and we had taken every
last interpreter that we couldmuster because we wanted them to
go in as an element, more orless.
And what had happened was acouple of them, I think it was
Rocco and I can't remember whoall was a part of the first,

(50:52):
like I think there was like sixof them, and they were going in,
and there was anotherinterpreter that had we had
given them a video camerabecause we wanted them to
videotape inside the mosque.
And he was so excited aboutusing a video camera because
he'd never used one before andall this other stuff, and he was
really jazzed about it.
And he was chatting with whoeverwas giving him the video camera,

(51:15):
and then realized that everybodyhad already gone inside.
And so he went and ran inside tolike catch up with everybody and
surprised the the interpreterthat was carrying the weapon,
and he had his finger on thetrigger and just and he leaned
back and the and the rise of theshots like shot him in the foot,

(51:37):
shot, shot, and then the uhIraqi policeman ran out of the
ran ran out of the mosque likewith two like fractured shins
and ran like we had to catch himreal quick because we didn't
understand what was going on.
Yep.
And uh that that interpreterthat got shot in the foot ended
up sticking around for a littlewhile until his foot got really
infected and then had to getMedivacked out.

SPEAKER_01 (51:58):
But he he he was getting enough money to where he
refused to be evacued.
He I specifically said he wasworried about the paycheck being
cut and he got such a nastyinfection he had to leave
because he was gonna die.
That I remember because we hadto take him to the medical.
We we took him to medical.

SPEAKER_05 (52:12):
Yeah, that all that all jibes.
And when the shots went off, Iremember the video camera was
going all willy-nilly, andlights were flashing all over
the place, and everyone's like,what are you doing?
Flash on the lights, and it wasthe video camera.

(52:32):
Uh before the days of thesmartphones and all that, not by
much, but no, you know, wedidn't have that, we didn't have
that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (52:41):
No, there was a handful of us that had uh I had
a small camera, and I know ahandful of other people did too.
And so we were able to recordsome stuff.
Not like it was not not likesome of the towards the end of
the war with people just havingstraight up GoPros.

unknown (52:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (52:56):
So what else do you do uh what else kind of on that,
you know, we're talking aboutkind of hitting the mosque.
Do you have any other uh anymissions stick out to you of uh
like coordinated, hey, here'syour grid coordinates, go hit
it.
Um whether they were there'salways that that mix of like,
hey, this was tactically sound,this was an awesome mission.

(53:17):
We did we we got we got what wewanted, we did it really good,
and then the absoluteboondoggles that can happen.
Uh any stick outs in your mind?

SPEAKER_05 (53:27):
You know, not mission-wise, really.
I mean, another event that kindof sticks out, and I I don't
recall the date, but it was anight.
We were on a night patrol, andI'll it would have been you
know, vicinity behind the snakepit, which is which is where Fox
Company was.
Yep, and we were moving and weuh we hit a pretty good size

(53:48):
IED, and that was one of thefirst IEDs that we hit.
I mean, we had you know we hadhad the machine gun fire and
stuff, but we had I think thatwas really the first IED at
nighttime, and that you know,nighttime always adds in a
different element.

SPEAKER_00 (54:02):
Is that the one that Holmes got hurt on?

SPEAKER_05 (54:05):
That's when home and that's when Hurley was pretty
mangled as well.

SPEAKER_02 (54:09):
Yep.

SPEAKER_05 (54:10):
Um, and I think probably some others, and I you
know, that's one that kind ofsticks out to me too as just
being you know chaos because youjust you know it's dark, nobody
can see, you don't know where itcame from, and then you know,
you have the obvious issue ofwell, is that the only one?
Is there gonna be direct fire,you know, coming next as we're

(54:31):
trying to figure out whereeverybody is, you know, how
badly hurt everybody is, and andthen we have a vehicle disabled,
which adds to it, you know, oryou can't just leave the
vehicle, you know.
So we were stuck there for apretty long period of time
because we had to wait forsomeone to someone came out to
help us recover the vehicle.

SPEAKER_01 (54:50):
Yeah, it was map two.
Yeah, we came out.
Yeah, I remember specifically.
Um, we came out, brought out.
I think we didn't bring anybody,we didn't call any wrecker or
anything.
We just uh used one of the towbars and towed that thing out of
there because it was stillrolling.

SPEAKER_05 (55:05):
Yeah, so that stands out to me.
And you know, again, I don'tknow exactly what our mission
was that night or if we had oneother than was to prevent people
from placing IEDs along the themain the main avenues and uh but
yeah, there's a few othermoments that kind of stand out.
But I mean the missions themissions themselves don't really

(55:26):
stand out, I guess.
It's more of you know whatresults from trying to
accomplish the mission that thatkind of stands out.

SPEAKER_01 (55:32):
Now, as far as uh when your platoon took
casualties, does that fall onyou to pack gear, write the
family, that kind of stuff, oris that fall on higher than you?
Is that on Captain Weiler?

SPEAKER_05 (55:45):
Yeah, no, that was um, you know, that is on the you
know the platoon commander, youknow.
Now certainly the captain, thecompany commander has his own
things that that they do, butlike when we lost Savage, for
instance, I mean he's he's theonly one that we lost.
Um you know, I I wrote thefamily and and did all that.

SPEAKER_01 (56:03):
And so yeah, that's definitely something that not
trying to twist the screws, butI am curious how how did you
prepare for that?
How did you do that?
Because that's something Idefinitely didn't have to do.

SPEAKER_05 (56:13):
Yeah, I mean it's hard, and I don't know that
there is a way to prepare for itbecause I you know Savage was I
knew Savage well.
I mean, like McPherson, I mean Iknow he was a junior Marine too,
but like you're you're close,you're close, you're naturally
just closer to certain people,depending on you know what
happens during thepre-deployment process, and
you're just kind of or certain,you know, he was the machine

(56:34):
gunner in my vehicle, you know.
So I saw I was with him all thetime.
I had met his white wife priorto the deployment, you know, so
I knew the family, and and justhaving to having to ride that,
and obviously, you know, yourjob is to you know, the mission
is to is to bring everybodyhome.
And when you don't do that andyou have to convey that to their

(56:56):
family, it's you know, it'sdifficult, obviously.
And there's nothing that I don'tthink there's anything that
could prepare you to do that,especially when you know I was,
you know, at the time 22 to 24,you know, and I'm 26.
So I mean that's we'recontemporaries, you know, as far
as that goes.
So I mean it's I didn't have anylife experience that prepared me

(57:16):
to do that.
Right.
Of course of course I hadCaptain Weiler to lean on and
and that type of thing, but Ithink the you know, I just when
I wrote the letter, it it wasjust you know, you just try to
do it from the heart, you know,and just and just you don't want
to beat her around the woodswith what happened.

SPEAKER_00 (57:33):
Uh reading uh unremitting, I that was one in
the first part of the book, itwas it for I don't remember
exactly why, but it was struckit struck me, uh kind of going
over how the ages of everybodyand how you know how young we
were, but at the same time,there's like a time warp while
you're in because you know, youknow, I was 23 at the time, but

(57:59):
anybody that was in their late20s seemed like a grandpa, you
know, I was like, oh, these arethese are sage individuals that
have all this life experience,but they're actually only like
five years older than you.
And uh it's was that was that aa little bit of a different
feeling um for for perspective,especially since being an

(58:19):
officer, you would have gonethrough college and so you would
have had a little bit moreworldliness underneath your
belt.
And so did you did you sensethat distance in age as much as
I was describing there?
Or were you seeing kind of like,oh no, this person's only a few
more, this two years youngerthan me?

SPEAKER_05 (58:35):
Yeah, I know what you were saying with the time
warp.
I mean, everyone seemed old.
I mean, I remember um you know,Gunny Cook seemed old, and he
was, you know, I don't know whathe was.
I mean, he was probably 29.

SPEAKER_01 (58:46):
I was gonna say 28, 29, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (58:49):
He was a young, he was a young staff NCO.
And then you had you had peoplelike, you know, Staff Sergeant
Coleman at the time, who was alittle older, you know, and
Gunny Crutcher at the time werea little older, and I'm talking
like probably 33, probably 32 or33.

SPEAKER_00 (59:04):
Yeah, grizzled at 30.

SPEAKER_05 (59:07):
But that's some hard miles on him, you know.
Um but then you have you havethe guys that you look at like
man or escalante, and it's likea lot of times it's that
physical appearance, like holyshit, like this guy is legit,
like maybe 18.

unknown (59:23):
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (59:24):
But they look even younger, you know.
Some of the guys we had, I mean,the young ones that we did have
were we had some young lookingguys.
Oh so I think with that, I meanit's like, yeah, I I'm a lot
older, I'm a lot more seasonedthan this guy, but then you got
the guys that have that, youknow, for some reason that that
one deployment makes everybodythat much just salty, you know.

(59:46):
So it's like you guys, you guysI I kind of viewed as you know,
we were kind of one and thesame, basically, as far as age
goes.
I mean, yeah, like you said, youwere what 23 or yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (59:57):
Yeah, I was your age, I was 26.
We were we were the same.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:00):
So there was, yeah, there was a we had Wade, you
know, was in there, and thenEscabel was a little bit older
in Hodges.
So like we were all there was alot of us that you know, it
wasn't me being 26 with you know60, 18 year olds by any stretch.
Yeah, so I but but you know,Marine Four years are definitely

(01:00:21):
different than like dog, they'relike dog ears for sure, yeah.
So um, but it's just funnylooking back on it that yeah oh
yeah he was a he was a seasonedveteran you know he was you know
he was the old man and he'stwenty eight you know but yeah
no just going back to Savage Imean that's something you know

(01:00:44):
me twelve I'm I mean that'ssomething that forever will you
know just and you talk aboutlosing people and stuff but
until it happens there's there'sreally no way to to prepare
anybody for it and thenobviously communicating that
with with the family is just youknow one of the hardest things
that I've had to do.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:01):
I can imagine that uh there there is everybody has
their own little silos and youknow we've talked to some guys
who were gunners or drivers andthey only saw it through that
perspective it is exquisitelydifferent when you are in charge
and much of it falls on yourshoulders and then you have to
do something like contact thefamily which you don't really

(01:01:23):
have any pre-existingrelationship with even if you
met them that that weight has tobe if you like what you've heard
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Morale, Morality and Mortality - Dave Dobb (Part 1 of 2)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Morale, Morality and Mortality - Dave Dobb (Part 1 of 2)