April 8, 2025 • 47 mins
When men do the inner work… it hits different.In this vulnerable and necessary episode of Conversations That Count, I sit down with Dane Muller, founder of Heartled Warriors, to talk all things masculinity, emotional healing, and redefining leadership.
💬 They dive deep into:
→ Dane’s personal journey with mental health
→ The emotional armour men are taught to wear
→ Why vulnerability is strength — not weakness
→ How men can create safe spaces to feel and heal
→ Why emotional resilience is the next frontier of leadership
This episode is for anyone who wants to witness what it truly looks like when men lead from the heart.
#MensWork #HeartledLeadership #MentalHealthAwareness #PodcastInterview #ConversationsThatCount #LeadershipDevelopment #DaneMuller #Jeihan #VulnerabilityIsStrength
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Well, welcome to Conversations That Count.
I'm super excited by thisconversation.
I am joined by Dane, who is theowner of Heart Led Warriors,
which is all about men's work,which I'm sure we'll delve into
a lot in this conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
Maybe a little bit, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Yeah, just a tad.
SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Yeah, I'm super excited.
So welcome.
Maybe...
Maybe let's start at like whatis Heart Led Warriors?
So maybe let's go there and seewhat naturally unfolds.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Heart Led Warriors is the brand.
I first began Heart Led Warriorsbecause of men's work.
I fell in love with men's workbecause I was experiencing men's
work myself and everything thatwe do is from the heart.
And I truly believe that for alot of people to heal, they need
(00:57):
to come back to that becauseeveryone's in their head, right?
Most people are in their head.
And everyone's a warrior, men,women, children, they all have
that inner warrior.
It doesn't matter what you'vebeen through.
You're always fighting thatbattle and for most people, they
get to win those battles andthat's where that name began.
With my wife, Nadine, who youknow really well as well,
(01:19):
that's...
The basis of our company is it'sa heart-led company.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
So men's work, like actually what is men's work?
I know that we hear it and sayhow important it is for men to
do the work, but what is it?
That's a pretty
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
loaded.
You know what, when I, howevermany years ago it was now, I
dove into the work, as everyonesays, and I, Really thinking
that what I provided was formen.
And it is.
However, we had so many womenreach out once I started sharing
footage of the retreats and whatwe do and the releases and all
(01:59):
of the things.
And I actually soon realizedthat it wasn't just men's work.
It's everyone's work.
So to call it just men's work Idon't think gives it justice.
And though...
We provide the work for just menon our retreats and workshops
and we also do the same forwomen.
And I think it's reallyimportant for men and women to
(02:23):
experience this separately andnot as a collective and that's
why we can go this is men's workand this is women's work.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
So when men come to you, because I guess...
And I'm talking about this fromlike a woman's perspective.
And, you know, I've been on apersonal discovery journey for
such a long time and know theimportance of it.
And I see so many women that aregoing first type thing.
(02:53):
With men, there's like a littlebit of a, I don't know if block
is the right word.
It's a resistance.
There's a resistance there.
Huge resistance.
What's that resistance for mento actually go, okay, something
needs to change, I need to dosomething different for myself,
for my family, for my kids?
What is that resistance and whatdo you believe is the turning
(03:15):
point for them to then go, okay,enough is enough?
SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
So, yeah, women have been leading the way in this
space for so long and still areand men are slowly, slowly
coming around.
But, yeah, there's thatresistance and it's our own
fault.
as men because as men we don'tsupport each other enough.
We're too worried about whatother men will say because of
this old school mindset of whata man should look like because,
(03:41):
again, like my dad, mygrandfathers, they did things in
different ways back then and Ithink everyone gets caught up in
how men did things 20, 30, 40years ago where the world is so
different.
So there's that resistance of...
Men going, oh, I'm not allowedto cry because my dad didn't cry
and my grandfather didn't cry.
And if these people see me andthey'll judge me, then am I
(04:04):
going to be a man?
And it's a massive fear ofjudgment from others and the
lack of support that other mengive men doing this type of
work.
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
How would you define being a man?
Hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
It's a really great question and I spoke about this
on my stories the other day or aweek ago and there's not one
size fits all because you canhave a really– softer man, a
more feminine man that'ssupremely masculine in the way
(04:45):
he supports, provides andprotects his family or himself
or his partners or anything likethat.
And then you get the reallymasculine looking men that are
strong and bulky that may not beable to provide and do that in
that way.
So for me, and it's somethingI've learned and still learning,
is that I think it's more aboutthe values of masculinity as to
(05:08):
what makes a man.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
Masculinity, like I know that there's a, I don't
want to say a butt's word, butlike toxic masculinity, I feel
like it's.
It's not real.
SPEAKER_00 (05:22):
Look, if there's toxic masculinity, there has to
be toxic femininity.
I don't believe in either.
There's toxic behaviours.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
Yeah, okay.
What are toxic behaviours then?
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
And I think it's because there's a lack of pure
masculinity in today's day andage because, again, we're trying
to bring that, what masculinemen look like from the 60s and
70s.
So it's lost its way.
How can we bring the valuesthrough and adapt it to today's
society?
Yeah, and I truly believe that'swhy there's such a buzzword
(05:57):
around that toxic masculinitybecause it's a lot of young men
doing the wrong things Andthat's why it's given that
behavior because it is mostlymen doing these things.
And it's pointed out, though,stealing cars and the physical
and mental abuse that they maydo towards partners, they're not
(06:18):
masculine traits.
They're just behaviors becauseboth sexes do that in their own
way.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
What's led you and inspired you to create this
company?
What's been your journey here?
UNKNOWN (06:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
There's so many points of why and when and how,
though I guess the first onethat's come to my mind is my
boys.
I've got two beautiful youngboys.
And my eldest maiden, I wasstarting to see the things I
(06:57):
hated in myself.
in him and it was with somebeautiful leadership from my
wife with her doing the workthat I realized that if I didn't
do the work that if I wasn'tgoing to end my life he'd
(07:17):
probably end his.
So that was the biggest kick inthe bum anyone could ever
receive and that's where Ilearned about passing that
modeling behavior, generationaltrauma.
And among so many other things,but that's the first one that
(07:39):
comes to my mind.
I think it's a really importantone because there are so many
fathers out there that I knoware like me and would probably
look at their children and wantthe best for them and yet aren't
setting the best example forthem, whether that's in their
physical or mental behaviors.
And Knowing what I know now, Ican only share what I know and
(08:08):
do what I do.
And yeah, just if you can't doit for yourself to begin with,
do it for your children andyou'll soon find out that you're
doing it for yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
What was your journey?
Like you just mentioned mentalhealth there as well.
And I know...
and this is a generalization, alot of men who silently suffer
and they don't necessarily feelthat they can express how
they're feeling because theyneed to be the strong one for
their family as well.
(08:45):
So how did that kind of unraveland for you to go– okay, I'm
doing it for them and I want tobe here and for you to then
openly talk about it as well.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
Yeah, so I lived a life full of suicidal ideation
from about eight years of age,so a long time, silent, kept it
to myself, kept it from my wifefor the better part of our time
together until it just came to aboiling point through my my
(09:23):
behaviors and patterns were justcausing a lot of destruction
within my life and my family'slife.
And it got to a point where Iwas, yeah, there was
contemplation of or I was givingmyself reasons of why not to end
my life.
And it was the fear of lookingweak in front of my wife by
(09:47):
telling her and When I finally,again with so much gentle
persuasion, lots of gentlepersuasion from her because
she's a special person and sheintuitively knew without knowing
as well.
So I just got to a point where Ihad to say it.
There was no other option otherthan doing what I was
(10:11):
contemplating or sayingsomething and was within saying
or opening up and finallyletting her know and then just
being held in a way that Iwasn't expecting.
There was a weight lifted off myshoulders and it was in that
moment I knew that beingvulnerable or letting myself be
(10:34):
vulnerable and sharing mystruggles was actually where my
strength lied and that's when Ijust started to I started
sharing on social media.
It was so scary and then justopened up, started speaking
about my challenges and thebeautiful support that I
(10:55):
received from people in ourcommunity and this is before I
started HeartLed, from wives andgirlfriends and partners in
particular because they I guessthey could relate to my story
and saw similarities in theirpartners.
But the support I received, I'mlike, okay, there's so much
power in sharing and lettingmyself be vulnerable and then
(11:18):
just it started from there.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
And I love that so much that, yeah, although I'm
sure it's hard to share that howmany people can relate to you
and your story and like you'remarried, you've got two kids,
you've had a successful careerand stuff beforehand as well.
Like how many people are in thesame boat and you're like
(11:43):
something
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
is something.
Yeah.
I think there's a statisticaround how many adults have
suicidal thoughts or ideationand it can be severe to just,
oh, I wish I wasn't here butthat I wish I was and here can
really spiral really quickly.
It's like 88% of adults, whichis it's insane yet not insane at
(12:06):
the same time.
It's so common that why aren'twe speaking about it more
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
often?
And I believe out of that,majority of that is men as well.
SPEAKER_02 (12:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
And I wonder why for men it's a lot higher as well
and, yeah, like...
there needs to be a turningpoint.
And I know that you and I are sopassionate about this as well.
Like what is the turning pointto allow men to actually speak
up and say what's happening forthem, rather than see that as
(12:39):
strength rather than seeing itas a weakness?
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
Yeah, I truly, I still believe it's, we need to
get rid of that old paradigm ofwhat that masculine man does or
doesn't do.
And it's, again, there's noblame on any generation, though
it's because of how men didn'tshare back then is why so many
men are struggling now because alot of the thoughts and feelings
(13:02):
that you're having are passed onthrough DNA and energy.
There's data and science behindit now to back that up.
And I know for me with the workthat I've done, I got to see and
feel sadness from my pastgenerations that was in me and I
was holding on to and I was justlike, wow, what is this?
And if I'm experiencing that,Everyone's experiencing that.
(13:25):
So as soon as we can shift theidea of what a man is supposed
to do and be in what hephysically does instead of what
he emotionally does, I thinkthat's going to be a huge shift.
And just the more men, andthat's why we share what we
share, to show because there'smen of all walks of life that
(13:46):
come together.
and do the work with us frommilitary to police to
ex-criminals to a broad range ofeveryone, tattoos, no tattoos,
big, small.
It's just the more we share, Ithink the more common it will
become and the more accepted itwill become for other men to do
that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
There's a couple of things I want to touch on there.
Like the first one youmentioned, generational trauma.
Can you explain that in a littlebit more detail and what that
actually means?
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
Sure.
So generational trauma.
is trauma passed on through DNAenergy from generation to
generation, from your mothers,fathers, grandfathers.
If you want to go in furtherfrom past lives, it's all there.
We know that energy is real.
It's a scientific fact.
We're all made up of energy, andenergy is passed on through our
(14:36):
DNA, through our blood, throughconnection, through any way.
And we can't see what we have...
We can't unsee what we've seen,especially through the work that
we've done and knowing how realthat is and even through the
breath works that we provide,how connected you can become and
(14:57):
live experiences through breaththat your fathers or
grandfathers have had so you'reable to be aware of why you're
feeling a certain way andfinally maybe make sense of it
and be able to release that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
And just on that, like...
I feel like parents, they wouldresonate with this.
It's like when they catchthemselves doing a particular
behavior like, oh, my dad didthat or my mom did that, that's
a passed on learned behaviorthat you're then passing on.
So by you doing the work, it'sgiving you the opportunity to
(15:33):
break that cycle and break thatand create change for then your
children to learn.
get a different experience.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Yeah.
And it's actually something thatNadine speaks into which is a
beautiful topic is I thinkthere's a lot of focus around
breaking generational traumawhich is great and we need to do
that though.
We're also needing to bringthrough the generational wisdom.
So there's so much wisdom fromour families and past
generations that we might beblocking off as well because
(16:01):
we're so focused on that healingaspect and breaking the curse
and all of those things thatwe're forgetting that there's so
much great things that we needto bring through as well.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
So with the men's work that you do, and you
mentioned that there's peoplefrom all walks of life, when
someone starts with you to whenthey finish the work, whether
that's through retreats or otherprograms that you offer, what
are some of the challenges thatyou address or that they come in
(16:33):
with that when they walk out,they're a completely different
person?
SPEAKER_00 (16:40):
So many.
I mean, we have men that havecome in that have faced a
lifetime of physical or sexualabuse or grown up without
parents, grown up as childrenthat have been adopted and never
met their real parents and theyfeel lost or have no connection
to their heritage, whetherthey're from Indonesia or Asia
(17:02):
or wherever that may be.
So it's the...
there's so many challenges thatmany men and women are facing
that they come in with.
So it's such a broad range thatI wouldn't be able to narrow it
down to one.
However, what we do our best atdoing is...
(17:23):
bringing it back to them,helping them realise, yes, these
things may have helped orhappened to them in the past, so
how can they change that forthemselves?
The challenge that we attackmostly outside of their traumas
is bringing it back to them.
How can they take the ownershipof that?
How can they change that forthemselves?
SPEAKER_01 (17:45):
And by you doing this work as well, what's been
the impact and change in yourlife?
UNKNOWN (17:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
And also around mental health as well.
How has that changed?
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
The biggest thing for me personally, outside of my
kids and my wife and my family,is that I actually found joy in
myself.
And that was missing for areally long time.
And finding that is a practiceas well.
So Finding joy and finding lovefor myself were the two biggest
(18:23):
things and they go hand in hand.
SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
How do you do that?
As a man, how do you find joy inthat love?
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
I think joy and love, one doesn't exist without
the other and you could call itinner joy or inner love or
whatever you would like to callit.
I think they're pretty much thesame thing.
UNKNOWN (18:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
It's just being supremely comfortable in the
person that you are.
I think society really paints apicture of how a man's supposed
to be and we do our best to liveup to that and I don't think
that's the right thing to bedoing is what society says for
us or what we should be doing orshouldn't be doing.
I mean...
(19:11):
True strength lies invulnerability and I think
vulnerability is the courage tohave and act as the person that
you want to be.
So I think as soon as you canfind that vulnerability and that
joy in yourself, that's whereyou'll find that.
Love yourself as well.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
and that goes hand in hand with women and men as
well.
I was part of a conversationlast night and a man had said
that he kind of feels sorry forwomen and what we have to go
through and sometimes being onthe receiving end of men.
And while I agree to that to acertain extent, there's also the
(19:50):
other side of that at the sametime.
And, you know, with men you like– It's more acceptable, I think,
for women to express how theyfeel and ask for help and ask
for support.
And for men, it's still notthere.
Not yet.
And so I kind of was like, well,there's challenges for being a
(20:12):
man at the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (20:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
And asking for that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Yeah, challenges for human beings.
I will 100% back up thegentleman that you were having a
conversation with.
We have, as men, and this...
I'm talking to myself here aswell, that we haven't been doing
our job as men, that we haven'thad the men of past model that
(20:36):
for us either because everythingevolves.
This world changes so quicklynow that the...
that essence of a masculine manhasn't evolved properly yet
either.
It's trying and there's lots ofdifferent bits and pieces and
views on it.
However, it's those values ofthe support, love, protector,
(20:57):
provider, they can come throughand I really don't feel that men
as a collective have been doingthat properly because I'm going
to go out and make a living formy family.
Yes, that's part of it.
However, it's not the mainthing.
thing today because women areable to there's so many families
(21:18):
have to have a dual income andthere's so many other ways to
provide all that and that's it'snot happening and it's the
emotional side of things for ourchildren and and wives that
we've been lacking on uh that'scausing the the i guess the I
can't even find a word for it,just that distance from that
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
masculinity.
It's interesting you said thatabout women now working at the
same time for whatever reasons.
And I spoke with Nadine aboutwomen finding their voice and
stepping into their power anddoing the things that they want
to do at the same time, whichthat's massively shifted.
And so it's like women are nowmore driven and ambitious and
(22:03):
independent than probably ever.
So it's like how do you then,like as a woman, create space
then for the man?
SPEAKER_00 (22:10):
Yes.
Look, I actually don't thinkit's about creating space for
the man.
I think it's about the menstepping up because you get to,
like if your wife, partner,girlfriend is the major
breadwinner, that's awesome.
UNKNOWN (22:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
it doesn't take away from your masculinity.
You can build on that becauseshe still needs to be loved.
She still needs to be supported.
She still needs to feel safe.
She still needs all of thosetraditional values of what
masculinity is.
How can you do that withoutworrying about I'm not the major
breadwinner?
Because if you're so focused onthat, that's where things fall
apart.
Those values still come throughno matter...
(22:45):
no matter your situation, nomatter if you're the major
breadwinner or she's a majorbreadwinner, you can still
provide those values ofmasculinity for that person.
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Yeah, I love that, that you said that.
And you
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
need both, right?
I'm a fucking perfect example ofthat because Nadine has been the
major breadwinner and still is.
And if that was to play a parton me, I wouldn't be able to be
the person I would be if Ididn't follow through.
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
And it's supporting her in that.
Yeah, which I think that's key,isn't
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
it?
And again, this is me.
I can do more of that.
All those values, I need to domore of it because there's
definitely times where, likeanyone, you can fall off the
wagon.
So it's a conscious practiceuntil it becomes that
unconscious habit.
SPEAKER_01 (23:34):
Yeah.
What's the vision for Heart LedWarriors?
Like what's your vision,mission, purpose there?
legacy that you want to lead andleave with men's work
SPEAKER_00 (23:50):
wow um i would love this suicide rates in australia
at the moment uh nine people aday seven of those being men
which is
SPEAKER_02 (24:02):
insane
SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
insane i would i would love by the time my time's
finished to see that at zero uhand knowing that what we're
doing, what we're creating, themovement we have has and will be
playing a huge part in that.
Allowing men to see and feelthis work, whether it's at a
(24:25):
retreat or an online group oranything, either way, whether
it's through Heartland Warriorsor through one of the multiple
other groups that you can findyourself doing some healing or
growth work, I think thelong-term goal is is to see that
(24:45):
number drop.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yeah.
What's the place for men's workin the workplace?
And I say this and we've hadconversations about this and
it's such a passion of mine aswell.
Like I've worked in mining,that's my background,
male-dominated industry andsexual abuse, sexual assault,
sexual harassment, drugs,alcohol, suicide, all of those
(25:10):
things is such a major issue inmen mining towns and they've
done studies and everythingalong those lines in that place
and yet they're not changingthose behaviors no so yeah
what's your what do you believeyour in your opinion is yet the
(25:31):
the purpose of men work in theworkplace
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
So yeah, I come from a background.
I was a builder, carpenter.
I worked in the mines myself andI lost mates to suicide that
were in the mines.
So it's definitely somethingthat's super important.
It has to start like properlyfrom the top down until some
sort of men's work and itbecomes I guess because it's
(25:56):
still– people are still reallyscared of this holistic approach
because it's not– And it'sbecoming more common.
However, until we can– because,I mean, I'm going to say it's a
broken system because seeing thepsychs, seeing the counsellors,
seeing those areas, well, yes,everything has its place.
It's not working.
Yeah.
So when is it going to be timeto bring in something new,
(26:19):
something that– People can seewhat we're doing.
There's science behind it now.
There's data behind it now thatactually works.
When is that?
How many?
Does it have to be 15 people aday before people go, oh, okay,
let's actually try somethingdifferent?
Yeah, I mean everything has itsplace.
I think even if just people can–make a 15-minute breath work
(26:44):
every morning in the workplace aconstant or something that they
have to do.
Just something as simple, juststart small.
As simple as that.
I mean, we all know the fastestway to regulate your nervous
system is to breathe properly.
Yes.
So, yeah, it has to start at thetop.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
So if you're listening and you're in the
corporate space.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Yeah.
And there are.
They just make some noise.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
It's like start making some noise.
Like I said, how many men andwomen have to take their own
lives each day for the bigcorporations to go, okay, what
we're doing isn't working.
Let's try something different.
SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
And it's one of the reasons that I created the
company that I've created withWomen in Leadership is is
because I don't believe thatthey're doing the right things
to actually support people inthe workplace and you spend,
what, a third of your life inthe workplace.
Yeah.
And, you know, men especially,you know, this work is so
(27:41):
valuable and if somethinghappens at work or there's
aggression or there's somethingalong those lines, their
response is to call thecounsellor.
Yeah.
You know, rather than looking atthe behaviour and what's the
root cause of the behaviour andgo down that path, they're just
like, oh, here's a Band-Aid
SPEAKER_00 (27:59):
fix.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I can speak on thatfrom experience because I've
seen the counsellors and seenthe psychs and, well, again,
everything has its place andsome of those Band-Aid fixes
have been exactly what wasneeded at the time but they are
a Band-Aid fix and Band-Aidsfall off.
So, yeah, how do we, it's like Ithink on the previous podcast
(28:19):
Nadine was talking about shakingsomething We need to shake some
people.
SPEAKER_01 (28:23):
Just go around and walk around to people.
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Just not babies.
Don't shake babies.
SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
No, definitely do not.
But it's so true.
You kind of want to do that.
And I suppose it's one person ata time and that impact that
you're creating over time, thatripple effect.
SPEAKER_00 (28:40):
I think we need to remind ourselves too it is just
one person at a time.
It starts with you, then thenext person, then the next
person.
And while...
I mean our men's retreats thisweekend and we've got 15
phenomenal men coming on tochange their lives but how many
lives are they going to affectby doing this now, their sons,
their daughters, their wives,their fathers?
SPEAKER_01 (29:01):
I think above all men's work is so important.
I love it anytime I see likeyourself Dane or another man
doing the work and I'm going toget emotional as well but as
soon as I see men doing the worklike I just my heart just
explodes because it takes suchbravery and courage to actually
(29:23):
do that as well and you knowaddress the things that's
actually playing out in theirmind where women I feel like we
do speak more openly and stillwe have a long way to go at the
same time so anyone that doesmen work I I'm just like, I'm
totally here for it.
I'm here to support you any wayI can because I've seen how
powerful this work is and howlife-changing this work is as
(29:46):
well.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Again, for women also and that's why we have the
Women's Retreat and it's likethe mirror image.
Yes, there's some things we dodifferently for the women though
sometimes They get to experiencethe release.
They get to experience all thethings because, I mean, everyone
faces their own kind of trauma.
Yeah.
And there's no judgment onanyone's trauma to the severity
(30:07):
of it.
So why– like everyone deservesto do this.
Everyone deserves to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:15):
So if I'm a man and going I'm not happy with– who I
am or, hey, I don't even knowwho I am and there's like
something that's happeningwithin me, what's the first step
that you would suggest anyone totake?
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
There's so many, I mean, there's the stigma around
it and there's like, oh, noone's there to listen.
There's so many organisationslike ours that are there online
to provide support.
So firstly, stop with theexcuses that no one's there to
(30:56):
listen because there are so manyand all it takes is for you to
go and it's that fear, move pastthat fear and just open up that
conversation because that is thefirst step.
Like me, if you're having thosesuicidal thoughts or you're deep
in depression or anxiety and youhaven't told anyone, tell
(31:19):
someone.
Again, the moment that I finallytold my wife that I was having
these suicidal thoughts was oneof the most weightlifting
experiences I've ever had.
And instead of carrying all thatweight, how would you feel to
let go of it all?
It has to start with you tellingsomeone.
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Yeah.
And by you opening up back thenand going on your own journey,
how has that then now changedwhen something's happening for
you or going on for you?
SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
Diving deep inward on yourself is never because
it's a path that you've nevertraveled.
So anytime you do it, it's goingto feel a little uncomfortable.
And no matter how deep you go orhow often you do it, there's
always that little bit ofrestriction in your body because
it's the unknown.
Every time I've been able to dothat, again, that feeling of
(32:24):
freedom within is what and why.
We do what we do because youunlock that piece of yourself,
you let go of that piece, youfeel lighter, you feel better,
there's more capacity to receiveand do things for yourself as
well.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
What do you do to continue your journey as well?
Because like, and as I saidpreviously, like...
It's a constant learning andunlearning and growth journey as
well.
So what do you continue to do tohelp on your own journey and
then for you to also then passthat on to the people around
you?
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
We're always continuing to have people in our
corner that have maybe one, twoor three steps ahead of us that
have been in our position andhave travelled a path that over
years and they can give usadvice and lead us in a
direction where we're not goingto spend another two or three
years finding that way.
I'm so fortunate that I haveprobably the most powerful
(33:25):
person in the world as my wifeand she does her best to hold me
to my highest standard and hashelped me discover so many
things and recently discoverthings about myself and why I do
things the way I do and why Idon't do things the way I do as
well.
(33:47):
So knowing that that support'sthere for me, you're going to
have that support there foryourself as well.
So being able to supportyourself on your own is a huge
thing too.
So, yeah, continually havingpeople in my corner and just
being open to– to learning moreabout myself as well.
(34:10):
Again, I think that the momentyou stop and think that you're
healed is when you'll stopgrowing.
I think I've had moments of thatover the years and even recently
where I was able to unlock somemore about myself through the
help of my wife.
And again, that's only helpingme grow further.
SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
And I can imagine like we've already said Nadine's
an incredible person.
This podcast is not about you,Nadine.
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
it is.
It is because this wouldn't beanything without her being a
part of my life.
And there's another beautifullady here who I have to mention
as well, Libney, because she'sas much a part of this as what I
am.
So this isn't just me.
It's my kids.
It's my wife.
It's my family.
And that family extends outfurther than just my immediate
(35:01):
family.
SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
And And I love that you've got such a beautiful
support network around you whereyou're able to share all of this
as well, where I feel like somemen might not have that as well.
Yeah.
And so how do you create that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
So most men...
are worried or fearful ofopening up because of what their
mates might think.
However, it's in and we dothese, we dive into this deep
into the retreats and the workthat we do and it's almost
forcing them to open up andshare their deepest, darkest
fears and feelings and regretsand shames and guilts because
(35:42):
the next man has feelings andeverything pretty much exactly
the same, unique to his journey.
SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:49):
And it's that feeling of, oh, I'm not the only
one feeling like this.
There's safety and comfort inthat and they begin to open up.
So if you're not sharingsomething with your mate, how do
you know how he's going torespond?
He might be going throughsomething very similar himself
and like nine times out of tenprobably is.
So you've got that.
(36:09):
It's only going to connect youfurther.
Yeah.
Even if he's unable to or has acapacity to be able to support
you, it's the fact that you'veopened up and then someone knows
and that's a really importantpiece.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
What's been some of the best advice that you've
received?
So many.
SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
I can't write it for you, though I can write it with
you.
SPEAKER_01 (36:38):
Oh, I love that.
And what does that mean for you?
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
It was the biggest wake-up call.
It meant that it was all me.
It's only ever going to be me.
And that was another key momentwhere it's that piece of
accountability of, fuck, I canrely on people.
(37:07):
I need to start relying onmyself and hold myself
accountable and all these thingsthat I've blamed in my life.
aren't what's the problem.
The problem is me.
SPEAKER_01 (37:18):
I think that's so powerful and beautiful is that
you need to want to change foryou because no one can do it for
you and can do the work for youand I think that's so powerful
in itself and for women saying,I want my partner to change or
you can't change for them.
SPEAKER_00 (37:37):
You can't and you have to let them.
It has to be and it was two daysafter I was told that that it
actually landed for me.
Again, everyone is on their owntimeline and you can wish and
push and ask and tell all youwant until something lands for
someone.
They're probably not going to dothat.
(37:59):
So patience is hugely a key inthis.
And again, a lot of wives,partners, girlfriends ask, how
can I get my partner to do this?
He's doing this, he's doingthis, he's doing this.
bring it back to you.
What are you doing that?
What are you doing to enablethat behavior?
What are you not doing foryourself that you could model to
him?
So if that's a question I ask alot of the partners that come
(38:23):
in, I go, what work are youdoing for you?
They're like, how do I get myhusband to do this?
Okay, well, what are you doingto show him that this work is
what it can be?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (38:32):
you go first.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
so powerful.
I know that sucks for a lot ofwomen too because a lot of women
are leading their men andthey're sick of leading and they
want to be led though.
What if this last piece ofshowing him what could be
possible is the last piece ofthat leading?
SPEAKER_01 (38:50):
I think it opens up the doors then to more
possibilities at the same time.
Like, yeah, you know, if you'reon a different journey, then
you're on a different journeyand that's it.
That's something else toexplore.
But, yeah, you can't changesomeone.
SPEAKER_00 (39:06):
No, they have to change themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
So for listeners, like what is acouple of really key messages
that you'd love them to get outof this podcast and this
conversation as well?
SPEAKER_00 (39:25):
Honestly, it's the fear of judgment.
You have to stop caring whatother people will think.
If you really want to changeyour life, then you've got to
stop that.
Do not give a fuck what anyoneelse thinks.
You can value opinions, though.
Yours is the main opinion.
Again, what is it?
In 100 years' time, 7 billionpeople will be dead.
(39:46):
So what you do right now doesn'tactually matter.
It doesn't matter.
So just go do it.
If the...
I forget where I heard itthough.
It's the queen who is one of themost powerful monarchs that have
ever lived in this world.
If you haven't thought about hersince her funeral, why is anyone
(40:08):
going to think about you?
So
SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
true.
SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
So just do it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:14):
So true.
SPEAKER_01 (40:16):
Yeah.
What are you hoping that I wouldask you today is, that I haven't
asked you that you think thatit's so important for men to
hear this and women to hear aswell with your message?
SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
It doesn't have to be like it is right now.
We were actually speaking beforethe podcast of you were in the
room and I was doing some work,some gross work, and there was a
moment of release and, again,another pivotal moment for me
because I'd never felt so freefrom myself before.
(40:49):
yet so connected to myself atthe same time.
And it doesn't have to be thatway.
You get to be free.
You get to feel like lifedoesn't have to be all anxious
and depression and all that.
It gets to be love and light andjoy.
And all it actually takes is onelittle choice for you to want to
change and then going to do thework.
SPEAKER_01 (41:13):
I love that you brought that up.
as well so we were in the sameroom a few years ago i want to
say three years ago or somethinglike that and there was a
particular process that dane anda lot of the other men in the
room went through and i won't gointo it a lot but as a woman
being there and hearing Andseeing that was so healing for
(41:38):
me as well and that a man canfully express his emotions, his
anger, whatever it is, and itdoesn't have to be linked to
something bad happening.
SPEAKER_02 (41:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:51):
And that was just– I still remember.
I still get chills from that aswell.
Like it was just such anincredibly powerful thing to
witness, these men just beingsuch– incredible, beautiful,
safe men.
And that's why I think I justlove what you do so much as
(42:13):
well.
SPEAKER_00 (42:13):
Yeah, and giving that opportunity to any man that
wants it is part of the reasonas to why we do what we do.
And there was so much in that.
There was so much that, I mean,I think, what was I?
I was 36 or 37 at the time.
It was 37 years of...
Heartbreak, anger, sadness,grief, all of it just being able
(42:35):
to come out.
And again, that lightness in mybody after was just something.
You cannot describe it until youactually experience it.
We do our best to describe thatfeeling and the best way to say
it is that feeling of freedomwithin.
And Yeah, that's something I'llhold closely to my heart for a
(42:58):
very, very long time.
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
It's like just the expression of emotion rather
than the suppression of
SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:04):
And when you suppress something for such a
long time and you finally havethat release, like it just– And
I know for me when I firststarted, just that it is so
freeing and powerful andbeautiful and you're like, I
want to continue on with this.
And it's just energy.
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
It is.
And it's just learning.
And we share a lot of thefootage on our page around that
where people are seeing men yellin front of the ladies and they
always go to violence straightaway.
Not always.
Most people go to violencebecause they don't make sense of
it.
But that's the whole point of ussharing it because I know it's
going to stir some conversationand I want to create that
(43:41):
conversation with that.
And I will explain to peoplethat actually put a message in
there or a comment that'sdecent, I will say, because
there are a lot of comments inthere that are just, I'll say,
rubbish is the nicest way I canput it.
So opening up the conversationaround it.
is another reason as to why weshare so much of what we do.
SPEAKER_01 (44:05):
And I think from– I just want to put my perspective
on that as well because Iabsolutely love everything that
you do.
And I grew up in a fairly angryhousehold where my dad and my
brother were pretty, yeah, justangry in terms of their
(44:25):
emotions.
And so for me being on thereceiving end of that, when I
left home– Anytime someone wouldyell at me or anything along
those lines, I was like, no, notme.
I'll walk away.
And I then saw that trend withthe people I dated as well
because I was like, I don't wantthat.
So rather than that, I'd go thisway.
(44:47):
And it's only in the last coupleof years and being a part of
what you were just talkingabout, that anger isn't a bad
thing.
It's an expression and it's ahealthy expression as well.
It can be a healthy expression.
And I always thought it was abad thing.
But then that's me shining awayfrom conflict.
So if things get hard, I waslike, oh, avoidant, close up,
(45:09):
protection mode, see you later.
SPEAKER_00 (45:10):
And you've seen it expressed in an unhealthy way.
A
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
hundred percent.
Yeah.
So it's healing for both.
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:17):
Like
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
going through things like that.
It's so healing.
There are a lot of women in theroom that it had experienced a
lot of physical abuse, emotionalabuse, sexual abuse from men
that for them was reallydifficult to begin with, to hear
and see and feel.
And seeing them after and thenhaving conversations with them
(45:39):
after about how it made themfeel, it just made my experience
even better.
And look, it's why we have womenon our...
men's retreats, it's why we havemen on our women's retreats
because if it was all men'sretreat and just men's
facilitators, how are weexpecting the men to heal the
(46:02):
wound from the feminine?
It's not possible.
And from day one, because I gotto experience it, we were like,
yep, this has to happen thisway.
And it's changed.
Every retreat's different.
Every retreat changes slightly.
And...
From day one, the men have beena little bit more involved, a
little bit more involved on thewomen's until they're there from
(46:23):
day one and part of every singlepart of it.
And the women, they're moreinvolved, more involved, more
involved on the men's as wellbecause the more we do that, the
more we see of that healing andwounding happen.
SPEAKER_01 (46:35):
Yeah, when you heal yourself, you heal others.
I'm sure we can go into so manymore avenues with this work.
I absolutely love...
everything that you stand for,everything you're doing,
everything that you're creatingwithin Dean as well because I
feel like this work is sopowerful in itself.
And, yeah, just keep doing youand being on that vision and
(46:59):
that mission as well becauseit's so incredibly needed as
well.
So I thank you for that and forgoing first as well and for
showing men that it's okay aswell because that also then
means everything something forthe woman.
SPEAKER_00 (47:13):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
Yeah.
I want to say thank you forcreating this.
It's avenues like this and wherepeople can hear and listen and
that may not come across on mypage or on the Dean's page.
They get to see and feel thiswork.
So thank you for theconversations that you have here
and share.
SPEAKER_01 (47:31):
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Well, welcome to Conversations That Count.
I'm super excited by thisconversation.
I am joined by Dane, who is theowner of Heart Led Warriors,
which is all about men's work,which I'm sure we'll delve into
a lot in this conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
Maybe a little bit, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Yeah, just a tad.
SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Yeah, I'm super excited.
So welcome.
Maybe...
Maybe let's start at like whatis Heart Led Warriors?
So maybe let's go there and seewhat naturally unfolds.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Heart Led Warriors is the brand.
I first began Heart Led Warriorsbecause of men's work.
I fell in love with men's workbecause I was experiencing men's
work myself and everything thatwe do is from the heart.
And I truly believe that for alot of people to heal, they need
(00:57):
to come back to that becauseeveryone's in their head, right?
Most people are in their head.
And everyone's a warrior, men,women, children, they all have
that inner warrior.
It doesn't matter what you'vebeen through.
You're always fighting thatbattle and for most people, they
get to win those battles andthat's where that name began.
With my wife, Nadine, who youknow really well as well,
(01:19):
that's...
The basis of our company is it'sa heart-led company.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
So men's work, like actually what is men's work?
I know that we hear it and sayhow important it is for men to
do the work, but what is it?
That's a pretty
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
loaded.
You know what, when I, howevermany years ago it was now, I
dove into the work, as everyonesays, and I, Really thinking
that what I provided was formen.
And it is.
However, we had so many womenreach out once I started sharing
footage of the retreats and whatwe do and the releases and all
(01:59):
of the things.
And I actually soon realizedthat it wasn't just men's work.
It's everyone's work.
So to call it just men's work Idon't think gives it justice.
And though...
We provide the work for just menon our retreats and workshops
and we also do the same forwomen.
And I think it's reallyimportant for men and women to
(02:23):
experience this separately andnot as a collective and that's
why we can go this is men's workand this is women's work.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
So when men come to you, because I guess...
And I'm talking about this fromlike a woman's perspective.
And, you know, I've been on apersonal discovery journey for
such a long time and know theimportance of it.
And I see so many women that aregoing first type thing.
(02:53):
With men, there's like a littlebit of a, I don't know if block
is the right word.
It's a resistance.
There's a resistance there.
Huge resistance.
What's that resistance for mento actually go, okay, something
needs to change, I need to dosomething different for myself,
for my family, for my kids?
What is that resistance and whatdo you believe is the turning
(03:15):
point for them to then go, okay,enough is enough?
SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
So, yeah, women have been leading the way in this
space for so long and still areand men are slowly, slowly
coming around.
But, yeah, there's thatresistance and it's our own
fault.
as men because as men we don'tsupport each other enough.
We're too worried about whatother men will say because of
this old school mindset of whata man should look like because,
(03:41):
again, like my dad, mygrandfathers, they did things in
different ways back then and Ithink everyone gets caught up in
how men did things 20, 30, 40years ago where the world is so
different.
So there's that resistance of...
Men going, oh, I'm not allowedto cry because my dad didn't cry
and my grandfather didn't cry.
And if these people see me andthey'll judge me, then am I
(04:04):
going to be a man?
And it's a massive fear ofjudgment from others and the
lack of support that other mengive men doing this type of
work.
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
How would you define being a man?
Hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
It's a really great question and I spoke about this
on my stories the other day or aweek ago and there's not one
size fits all because you canhave a really– softer man, a
more feminine man that'ssupremely masculine in the way
(04:45):
he supports, provides andprotects his family or himself
or his partners or anything likethat.
And then you get the reallymasculine looking men that are
strong and bulky that may not beable to provide and do that in
that way.
So for me, and it's somethingI've learned and still learning,
is that I think it's more aboutthe values of masculinity as to
(05:08):
what makes a man.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
Masculinity, like I know that there's a, I don't
want to say a butt's word, butlike toxic masculinity, I feel
like it's.
It's not real.
SPEAKER_00 (05:22):
Look, if there's toxic masculinity, there has to
be toxic femininity.
I don't believe in either.
There's toxic behaviours.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
Yeah, okay.
What are toxic behaviours then?
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
And I think it's because there's a lack of pure
masculinity in today's day andage because, again, we're trying
to bring that, what masculinemen look like from the 60s and
70s.
So it's lost its way.
How can we bring the valuesthrough and adapt it to today's
society?
Yeah, and I truly believe that'swhy there's such a buzzword
(05:57):
around that toxic masculinitybecause it's a lot of young men
doing the wrong things Andthat's why it's given that
behavior because it is mostlymen doing these things.
And it's pointed out, though,stealing cars and the physical
and mental abuse that they maydo towards partners, they're not
(06:18):
masculine traits.
They're just behaviors becauseboth sexes do that in their own
way.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
What's led you and inspired you to create this
company?
What's been your journey here?
UNKNOWN (06:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
There's so many points of why and when and how,
though I guess the first onethat's come to my mind is my
boys.
I've got two beautiful youngboys.
And my eldest maiden, I wasstarting to see the things I
(06:57):
hated in myself.
in him and it was with somebeautiful leadership from my
wife with her doing the workthat I realized that if I didn't
do the work that if I wasn'tgoing to end my life he'd
(07:17):
probably end his.
So that was the biggest kick inthe bum anyone could ever
receive and that's where Ilearned about passing that
modeling behavior, generationaltrauma.
And among so many other things,but that's the first one that
(07:39):
comes to my mind.
I think it's a really importantone because there are so many
fathers out there that I knoware like me and would probably
look at their children and wantthe best for them and yet aren't
setting the best example forthem, whether that's in their
physical or mental behaviors.
And Knowing what I know now, Ican only share what I know and
(08:08):
do what I do.
And yeah, just if you can't doit for yourself to begin with,
do it for your children andyou'll soon find out that you're
doing it for yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
What was your journey?
Like you just mentioned mentalhealth there as well.
And I know...
and this is a generalization, alot of men who silently suffer
and they don't necessarily feelthat they can express how
they're feeling because theyneed to be the strong one for
their family as well.
(08:45):
So how did that kind of unraveland for you to go– okay, I'm
doing it for them and I want tobe here and for you to then
openly talk about it as well.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
Yeah, so I lived a life full of suicidal ideation
from about eight years of age,so a long time, silent, kept it
to myself, kept it from my wifefor the better part of our time
together until it just came to aboiling point through my my
(09:23):
behaviors and patterns were justcausing a lot of destruction
within my life and my family'slife.
And it got to a point where Iwas, yeah, there was
contemplation of or I was givingmyself reasons of why not to end
my life.
And it was the fear of lookingweak in front of my wife by
(09:47):
telling her and When I finally,again with so much gentle
persuasion, lots of gentlepersuasion from her because
she's a special person and sheintuitively knew without knowing
as well.
So I just got to a point where Ihad to say it.
There was no other option otherthan doing what I was
(10:11):
contemplating or sayingsomething and was within saying
or opening up and finallyletting her know and then just
being held in a way that Iwasn't expecting.
There was a weight lifted off myshoulders and it was in that
moment I knew that beingvulnerable or letting myself be
(10:34):
vulnerable and sharing mystruggles was actually where my
strength lied and that's when Ijust started to I started
sharing on social media.
It was so scary and then justopened up, started speaking
about my challenges and thebeautiful support that I
(10:55):
received from people in ourcommunity and this is before I
started HeartLed, from wives andgirlfriends and partners in
particular because they I guessthey could relate to my story
and saw similarities in theirpartners.
But the support I received, I'mlike, okay, there's so much
power in sharing and lettingmyself be vulnerable and then
(11:18):
just it started from there.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
And I love that so much that, yeah, although I'm
sure it's hard to share that howmany people can relate to you
and your story and like you'remarried, you've got two kids,
you've had a successful careerand stuff beforehand as well.
Like how many people are in thesame boat and you're like
(11:43):
something
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
is something.
Yeah.
I think there's a statisticaround how many adults have
suicidal thoughts or ideationand it can be severe to just,
oh, I wish I wasn't here butthat I wish I was and here can
really spiral really quickly.
It's like 88% of adults, whichis it's insane yet not insane at
(12:06):
the same time.
It's so common that why aren'twe speaking about it more
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
often?
And I believe out of that,majority of that is men as well.
SPEAKER_02 (12:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
And I wonder why for men it's a lot higher as well
and, yeah, like...
there needs to be a turningpoint.
And I know that you and I are sopassionate about this as well.
Like what is the turning pointto allow men to actually speak
up and say what's happening forthem, rather than see that as
(12:39):
strength rather than seeing itas a weakness?
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
Yeah, I truly, I still believe it's, we need to
get rid of that old paradigm ofwhat that masculine man does or
doesn't do.
And it's, again, there's noblame on any generation, though
it's because of how men didn'tshare back then is why so many
men are struggling now because alot of the thoughts and feelings
(13:02):
that you're having are passed onthrough DNA and energy.
There's data and science behindit now to back that up.
And I know for me with the workthat I've done, I got to see and
feel sadness from my pastgenerations that was in me and I
was holding on to and I was justlike, wow, what is this?
And if I'm experiencing that,Everyone's experiencing that.
(13:25):
So as soon as we can shift theidea of what a man is supposed
to do and be in what hephysically does instead of what
he emotionally does, I thinkthat's going to be a huge shift.
And just the more men, andthat's why we share what we
share, to show because there'smen of all walks of life that
(13:46):
come together.
and do the work with us frommilitary to police to
ex-criminals to a broad range ofeveryone, tattoos, no tattoos,
big, small.
It's just the more we share, Ithink the more common it will
become and the more accepted itwill become for other men to do
that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
There's a couple of things I want to touch on there.
Like the first one youmentioned, generational trauma.
Can you explain that in a littlebit more detail and what that
actually means?
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
Sure.
So generational trauma.
is trauma passed on through DNAenergy from generation to
generation, from your mothers,fathers, grandfathers.
If you want to go in furtherfrom past lives, it's all there.
We know that energy is real.
It's a scientific fact.
We're all made up of energy, andenergy is passed on through our
(14:36):
DNA, through our blood, throughconnection, through any way.
And we can't see what we have...
We can't unsee what we've seen,especially through the work that
we've done and knowing how realthat is and even through the
breath works that we provide,how connected you can become and
(14:57):
live experiences through breaththat your fathers or
grandfathers have had so you'reable to be aware of why you're
feeling a certain way andfinally maybe make sense of it
and be able to release that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
And just on that, like...
I feel like parents, they wouldresonate with this.
It's like when they catchthemselves doing a particular
behavior like, oh, my dad didthat or my mom did that, that's
a passed on learned behaviorthat you're then passing on.
So by you doing the work, it'sgiving you the opportunity to
(15:33):
break that cycle and break thatand create change for then your
children to learn.
get a different experience.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Yeah.
And it's actually something thatNadine speaks into which is a
beautiful topic is I thinkthere's a lot of focus around
breaking generational traumawhich is great and we need to do
that though.
We're also needing to bringthrough the generational wisdom.
So there's so much wisdom fromour families and past
generations that we might beblocking off as well because
(16:01):
we're so focused on that healingaspect and breaking the curse
and all of those things thatwe're forgetting that there's so
much great things that we needto bring through as well.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
So with the men's work that you do, and you
mentioned that there's peoplefrom all walks of life, when
someone starts with you to whenthey finish the work, whether
that's through retreats or otherprograms that you offer, what
are some of the challenges thatyou address or that they come in
(16:33):
with that when they walk out,they're a completely different
person?
SPEAKER_00 (16:40):
So many.
I mean, we have men that havecome in that have faced a
lifetime of physical or sexualabuse or grown up without
parents, grown up as childrenthat have been adopted and never
met their real parents and theyfeel lost or have no connection
to their heritage, whetherthey're from Indonesia or Asia
(17:02):
or wherever that may be.
So it's the...
there's so many challenges thatmany men and women are facing
that they come in with.
So it's such a broad range thatI wouldn't be able to narrow it
down to one.
However, what we do our best atdoing is...
(17:23):
bringing it back to them,helping them realise, yes, these
things may have helped orhappened to them in the past, so
how can they change that forthemselves?
The challenge that we attackmostly outside of their traumas
is bringing it back to them.
How can they take the ownershipof that?
How can they change that forthemselves?
SPEAKER_01 (17:45):
And by you doing this work as well, what's been
the impact and change in yourlife?
UNKNOWN (17:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
And also around mental health as well.
How has that changed?
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
The biggest thing for me personally, outside of my
kids and my wife and my family,is that I actually found joy in
myself.
And that was missing for areally long time.
And finding that is a practiceas well.
So Finding joy and finding lovefor myself were the two biggest
(18:23):
things and they go hand in hand.
SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
How do you do that?
As a man, how do you find joy inthat love?
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
I think joy and love, one doesn't exist without
the other and you could call itinner joy or inner love or
whatever you would like to callit.
I think they're pretty much thesame thing.
UNKNOWN (18:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
It's just being supremely comfortable in the
person that you are.
I think society really paints apicture of how a man's supposed
to be and we do our best to liveup to that and I don't think
that's the right thing to bedoing is what society says for
us or what we should be doing orshouldn't be doing.
I mean...
(19:11):
True strength lies invulnerability and I think
vulnerability is the courage tohave and act as the person that
you want to be.
So I think as soon as you canfind that vulnerability and that
joy in yourself, that's whereyou'll find that.
Love yourself as well.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
and that goes hand in hand with women and men as
well.
I was part of a conversationlast night and a man had said
that he kind of feels sorry forwomen and what we have to go
through and sometimes being onthe receiving end of men.
And while I agree to that to acertain extent, there's also the
(19:50):
other side of that at the sametime.
And, you know, with men you like– It's more acceptable, I think,
for women to express how theyfeel and ask for help and ask
for support.
And for men, it's still notthere.
Not yet.
And so I kind of was like, well,there's challenges for being a
(20:12):
man at the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (20:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
And asking for that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Yeah, challenges for human beings.
I will 100% back up thegentleman that you were having a
conversation with.
We have, as men, and this...
I'm talking to myself here aswell, that we haven't been doing
our job as men, that we haven'thad the men of past model that
(20:36):
for us either because everythingevolves.
This world changes so quicklynow that the...
that essence of a masculine manhasn't evolved properly yet
either.
It's trying and there's lots ofdifferent bits and pieces and
views on it.
However, it's those values ofthe support, love, protector,
(20:57):
provider, they can come throughand I really don't feel that men
as a collective have been doingthat properly because I'm going
to go out and make a living formy family.
Yes, that's part of it.
However, it's not the mainthing.
thing today because women areable to there's so many families
(21:18):
have to have a dual income andthere's so many other ways to
provide all that and that's it'snot happening and it's the
emotional side of things for ourchildren and and wives that
we've been lacking on uh that'scausing the the i guess the I
can't even find a word for it,just that distance from that
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
masculinity.
It's interesting you said thatabout women now working at the
same time for whatever reasons.
And I spoke with Nadine aboutwomen finding their voice and
stepping into their power anddoing the things that they want
to do at the same time, whichthat's massively shifted.
And so it's like women are nowmore driven and ambitious and
(22:03):
independent than probably ever.
So it's like how do you then,like as a woman, create space
then for the man?
SPEAKER_00 (22:10):
Yes.
Look, I actually don't thinkit's about creating space for
the man.
I think it's about the menstepping up because you get to,
like if your wife, partner,girlfriend is the major
breadwinner, that's awesome.
UNKNOWN (22:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
it doesn't take away from your masculinity.
You can build on that becauseshe still needs to be loved.
She still needs to be supported.
She still needs to feel safe.
She still needs all of thosetraditional values of what
masculinity is.
How can you do that withoutworrying about I'm not the major
breadwinner?
Because if you're so focused onthat, that's where things fall
apart.
Those values still come throughno matter...
(22:45):
no matter your situation, nomatter if you're the major
breadwinner or she's a majorbreadwinner, you can still
provide those values ofmasculinity for that person.
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Yeah, I love that, that you said that.
And you
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
need both, right?
I'm a fucking perfect example ofthat because Nadine has been the
major breadwinner and still is.
And if that was to play a parton me, I wouldn't be able to be
the person I would be if Ididn't follow through.
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
And it's supporting her in that.
Yeah, which I think that's key,isn't
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
it?
And again, this is me.
I can do more of that.
All those values, I need to domore of it because there's
definitely times where, likeanyone, you can fall off the
wagon.
So it's a conscious practiceuntil it becomes that
unconscious habit.
SPEAKER_01 (23:34):
Yeah.
What's the vision for Heart LedWarriors?
Like what's your vision,mission, purpose there?
legacy that you want to lead andleave with men's work
SPEAKER_00 (23:50):
wow um i would love this suicide rates in australia
at the moment uh nine people aday seven of those being men
which is
SPEAKER_02 (24:02):
insane
SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
insane i would i would love by the time my time's
finished to see that at zero uhand knowing that what we're
doing, what we're creating, themovement we have has and will be
playing a huge part in that.
Allowing men to see and feelthis work, whether it's at a
(24:25):
retreat or an online group oranything, either way, whether
it's through Heartland Warriorsor through one of the multiple
other groups that you can findyourself doing some healing or
growth work, I think thelong-term goal is is to see that
(24:45):
number drop.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yeah.
What's the place for men's workin the workplace?
And I say this and we've hadconversations about this and
it's such a passion of mine aswell.
Like I've worked in mining,that's my background,
male-dominated industry andsexual abuse, sexual assault,
sexual harassment, drugs,alcohol, suicide, all of those
(25:10):
things is such a major issue inmen mining towns and they've
done studies and everythingalong those lines in that place
and yet they're not changingthose behaviors no so yeah
what's your what do you believeyour in your opinion is yet the
(25:31):
the purpose of men work in theworkplace
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
So yeah, I come from a background.
I was a builder, carpenter.
I worked in the mines myself andI lost mates to suicide that
were in the mines.
So it's definitely somethingthat's super important.
It has to start like properlyfrom the top down until some
sort of men's work and itbecomes I guess because it's
(25:56):
still– people are still reallyscared of this holistic approach
because it's not– And it'sbecoming more common.
However, until we can– because,I mean, I'm going to say it's a
broken system because seeing thepsychs, seeing the counsellors,
seeing those areas, well, yes,everything has its place.
It's not working.
Yeah.
So when is it going to be timeto bring in something new,
(26:19):
something that– People can seewhat we're doing.
There's science behind it now.
There's data behind it now thatactually works.
When is that?
How many?
Does it have to be 15 people aday before people go, oh, okay,
let's actually try somethingdifferent?
Yeah, I mean everything has itsplace.
I think even if just people can–make a 15-minute breath work
(26:44):
every morning in the workplace aconstant or something that they
have to do.
Just something as simple, juststart small.
As simple as that.
I mean, we all know the fastestway to regulate your nervous
system is to breathe properly.
Yes.
So, yeah, it has to start at thetop.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
So if you're listening and you're in the
corporate space.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Yeah.
And there are.
They just make some noise.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
It's like start making some noise.
Like I said, how many men andwomen have to take their own
lives each day for the bigcorporations to go, okay, what
we're doing isn't working.
Let's try something different.
SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
And it's one of the reasons that I created the
company that I've created withWomen in Leadership is is
because I don't believe thatthey're doing the right things
to actually support people inthe workplace and you spend,
what, a third of your life inthe workplace.
Yeah.
And, you know, men especially,you know, this work is so
(27:41):
valuable and if somethinghappens at work or there's
aggression or there's somethingalong those lines, their
response is to call thecounsellor.
Yeah.
You know, rather than looking atthe behaviour and what's the
root cause of the behaviour andgo down that path, they're just
like, oh, here's a Band-Aid
SPEAKER_00 (27:59):
fix.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I can speak on thatfrom experience because I've
seen the counsellors and seenthe psychs and, well, again,
everything has its place andsome of those Band-Aid fixes
have been exactly what wasneeded at the time but they are
a Band-Aid fix and Band-Aidsfall off.
So, yeah, how do we, it's like Ithink on the previous podcast
(28:19):
Nadine was talking about shakingsomething We need to shake some
people.
SPEAKER_01 (28:23):
Just go around and walk around to people.
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Just not babies.
Don't shake babies.
SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
No, definitely do not.
But it's so true.
You kind of want to do that.
And I suppose it's one person ata time and that impact that
you're creating over time, thatripple effect.
SPEAKER_00 (28:40):
I think we need to remind ourselves too it is just
one person at a time.
It starts with you, then thenext person, then the next
person.
And while...
I mean our men's retreats thisweekend and we've got 15
phenomenal men coming on tochange their lives but how many
lives are they going to affectby doing this now, their sons,
their daughters, their wives,their fathers?
SPEAKER_01 (29:01):
I think above all men's work is so important.
I love it anytime I see likeyourself Dane or another man
doing the work and I'm going toget emotional as well but as
soon as I see men doing the worklike I just my heart just
explodes because it takes suchbravery and courage to actually
(29:23):
do that as well and you knowaddress the things that's
actually playing out in theirmind where women I feel like we
do speak more openly and stillwe have a long way to go at the
same time so anyone that doesmen work I I'm just like, I'm
totally here for it.
I'm here to support you any wayI can because I've seen how
powerful this work is and howlife-changing this work is as
(29:46):
well.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Again, for women also and that's why we have the
Women's Retreat and it's likethe mirror image.
Yes, there's some things we dodifferently for the women though
sometimes They get to experiencethe release.
They get to experience all thethings because, I mean, everyone
faces their own kind of trauma.
Yeah.
And there's no judgment onanyone's trauma to the severity
(30:07):
of it.
So why– like everyone deservesto do this.
Everyone deserves to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:15):
So if I'm a man and going I'm not happy with– who I
am or, hey, I don't even knowwho I am and there's like
something that's happeningwithin me, what's the first step
that you would suggest anyone totake?
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
There's so many, I mean, there's the stigma around
it and there's like, oh, noone's there to listen.
There's so many organisationslike ours that are there online
to provide support.
So firstly, stop with theexcuses that no one's there to
(30:56):
listen because there are so manyand all it takes is for you to
go and it's that fear, move pastthat fear and just open up that
conversation because that is thefirst step.
Like me, if you're having thosesuicidal thoughts or you're deep
in depression or anxiety and youhaven't told anyone, tell
(31:19):
someone.
Again, the moment that I finallytold my wife that I was having
these suicidal thoughts was oneof the most weightlifting
experiences I've ever had.
And instead of carrying all thatweight, how would you feel to
let go of it all?
It has to start with you tellingsomeone.
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Yeah.
And by you opening up back thenand going on your own journey,
how has that then now changedwhen something's happening for
you or going on for you?
SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
Diving deep inward on yourself is never because
it's a path that you've nevertraveled.
So anytime you do it, it's goingto feel a little uncomfortable.
And no matter how deep you go orhow often you do it, there's
always that little bit ofrestriction in your body because
it's the unknown.
Every time I've been able to dothat, again, that feeling of
(32:24):
freedom within is what and why.
We do what we do because youunlock that piece of yourself,
you let go of that piece, youfeel lighter, you feel better,
there's more capacity to receiveand do things for yourself as
well.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
What do you do to continue your journey as well?
Because like, and as I saidpreviously, like...
It's a constant learning andunlearning and growth journey as
well.
So what do you continue to do tohelp on your own journey and
then for you to also then passthat on to the people around
you?
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
We're always continuing to have people in our
corner that have maybe one, twoor three steps ahead of us that
have been in our position andhave travelled a path that over
years and they can give usadvice and lead us in a
direction where we're not goingto spend another two or three
years finding that way.
I'm so fortunate that I haveprobably the most powerful
(33:25):
person in the world as my wifeand she does her best to hold me
to my highest standard and hashelped me discover so many
things and recently discoverthings about myself and why I do
things the way I do and why Idon't do things the way I do as
well.
(33:47):
So knowing that that support'sthere for me, you're going to
have that support there foryourself as well.
So being able to supportyourself on your own is a huge
thing too.
So, yeah, continually havingpeople in my corner and just
being open to– to learning moreabout myself as well.
(34:10):
Again, I think that the momentyou stop and think that you're
healed is when you'll stopgrowing.
I think I've had moments of thatover the years and even recently
where I was able to unlock somemore about myself through the
help of my wife.
And again, that's only helpingme grow further.
SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
And I can imagine like we've already said Nadine's
an incredible person.
This podcast is not about you,Nadine.
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
it is.
It is because this wouldn't beanything without her being a
part of my life.
And there's another beautifullady here who I have to mention
as well, Libney, because she'sas much a part of this as what I
am.
So this isn't just me.
It's my kids.
It's my wife.
It's my family.
And that family extends outfurther than just my immediate
(35:01):
family.
SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
And And I love that you've got such a beautiful
support network around you whereyou're able to share all of this
as well, where I feel like somemen might not have that as well.
Yeah.
And so how do you create that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
So most men...
are worried or fearful ofopening up because of what their
mates might think.
However, it's in and we dothese, we dive into this deep
into the retreats and the workthat we do and it's almost
forcing them to open up andshare their deepest, darkest
fears and feelings and regretsand shames and guilts because
(35:42):
the next man has feelings andeverything pretty much exactly
the same, unique to his journey.
SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:49):
And it's that feeling of, oh, I'm not the only
one feeling like this.
There's safety and comfort inthat and they begin to open up.
So if you're not sharingsomething with your mate, how do
you know how he's going torespond?
He might be going throughsomething very similar himself
and like nine times out of tenprobably is.
So you've got that.
(36:09):
It's only going to connect youfurther.
Yeah.
Even if he's unable to or has acapacity to be able to support
you, it's the fact that you'veopened up and then someone knows
and that's a really importantpiece.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
What's been some of the best advice that you've
received?
So many.
SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
I can't write it for you, though I can write it with
you.
SPEAKER_01 (36:38):
Oh, I love that.
And what does that mean for you?
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
It was the biggest wake-up call.
It meant that it was all me.
It's only ever going to be me.
And that was another key momentwhere it's that piece of
accountability of, fuck, I canrely on people.
(37:07):
I need to start relying onmyself and hold myself
accountable and all these thingsthat I've blamed in my life.
aren't what's the problem.
The problem is me.
SPEAKER_01 (37:18):
I think that's so powerful and beautiful is that
you need to want to change foryou because no one can do it for
you and can do the work for youand I think that's so powerful
in itself and for women saying,I want my partner to change or
you can't change for them.
SPEAKER_00 (37:37):
You can't and you have to let them.
It has to be and it was two daysafter I was told that that it
actually landed for me.
Again, everyone is on their owntimeline and you can wish and
push and ask and tell all youwant until something lands for
someone.
They're probably not going to dothat.
(37:59):
So patience is hugely a key inthis.
And again, a lot of wives,partners, girlfriends ask, how
can I get my partner to do this?
He's doing this, he's doingthis, he's doing this.
bring it back to you.
What are you doing that?
What are you doing to enablethat behavior?
What are you not doing foryourself that you could model to
him?
So if that's a question I ask alot of the partners that come
(38:23):
in, I go, what work are youdoing for you?
They're like, how do I get myhusband to do this?
Okay, well, what are you doingto show him that this work is
what it can be?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (38:32):
you go first.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
so powerful.
I know that sucks for a lot ofwomen too because a lot of women
are leading their men andthey're sick of leading and they
want to be led though.
What if this last piece ofshowing him what could be
possible is the last piece ofthat leading?
SPEAKER_01 (38:50):
I think it opens up the doors then to more
possibilities at the same time.
Like, yeah, you know, if you'reon a different journey, then
you're on a different journeyand that's it.
That's something else toexplore.
But, yeah, you can't changesomeone.
SPEAKER_00 (39:06):
No, they have to change themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
So for listeners, like what is acouple of really key messages
that you'd love them to get outof this podcast and this
conversation as well?
SPEAKER_00 (39:25):
Honestly, it's the fear of judgment.
You have to stop caring whatother people will think.
If you really want to changeyour life, then you've got to
stop that.
Do not give a fuck what anyoneelse thinks.
You can value opinions, though.
Yours is the main opinion.
Again, what is it?
In 100 years' time, 7 billionpeople will be dead.
(39:46):
So what you do right now doesn'tactually matter.
It doesn't matter.
So just go do it.
If the...
I forget where I heard itthough.
It's the queen who is one of themost powerful monarchs that have
ever lived in this world.
If you haven't thought about hersince her funeral, why is anyone
(40:08):
going to think about you?
So
SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
true.
SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
So just do it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:14):
So true.
SPEAKER_01 (40:16):
Yeah.
What are you hoping that I wouldask you today is, that I haven't
asked you that you think thatit's so important for men to
hear this and women to hear aswell with your message?
SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
It doesn't have to be like it is right now.
We were actually speaking beforethe podcast of you were in the
room and I was doing some work,some gross work, and there was a
moment of release and, again,another pivotal moment for me
because I'd never felt so freefrom myself before.
(40:49):
yet so connected to myself atthe same time.
And it doesn't have to be thatway.
You get to be free.
You get to feel like lifedoesn't have to be all anxious
and depression and all that.
It gets to be love and light andjoy.
And all it actually takes is onelittle choice for you to want to
change and then going to do thework.
SPEAKER_01 (41:13):
I love that you brought that up.
as well so we were in the sameroom a few years ago i want to
say three years ago or somethinglike that and there was a
particular process that dane anda lot of the other men in the
room went through and i won't gointo it a lot but as a woman
being there and hearing Andseeing that was so healing for
(41:38):
me as well and that a man canfully express his emotions, his
anger, whatever it is, and itdoesn't have to be linked to
something bad happening.
SPEAKER_02 (41:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:51):
And that was just– I still remember.
I still get chills from that aswell.
Like it was just such anincredibly powerful thing to
witness, these men just beingsuch– incredible, beautiful,
safe men.
And that's why I think I justlove what you do so much as
(42:13):
well.
SPEAKER_00 (42:13):
Yeah, and giving that opportunity to any man that
wants it is part of the reasonas to why we do what we do.
And there was so much in that.
There was so much that, I mean,I think, what was I?
I was 36 or 37 at the time.
It was 37 years of...
Heartbreak, anger, sadness,grief, all of it just being able
(42:35):
to come out.
And again, that lightness in mybody after was just something.
You cannot describe it until youactually experience it.
We do our best to describe thatfeeling and the best way to say
it is that feeling of freedomwithin.
And Yeah, that's something I'llhold closely to my heart for a
(42:58):
very, very long time.
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
It's like just the expression of emotion rather
than the suppression of
SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:04):
And when you suppress something for such a
long time and you finally havethat release, like it just– And
I know for me when I firststarted, just that it is so
freeing and powerful andbeautiful and you're like, I
want to continue on with this.
And it's just energy.
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
It is.
And it's just learning.
And we share a lot of thefootage on our page around that
where people are seeing men yellin front of the ladies and they
always go to violence straightaway.
Not always.
Most people go to violencebecause they don't make sense of
it.
But that's the whole point of ussharing it because I know it's
going to stir some conversationand I want to create that
(43:41):
conversation with that.
And I will explain to peoplethat actually put a message in
there or a comment that'sdecent, I will say, because
there are a lot of comments inthere that are just, I'll say,
rubbish is the nicest way I canput it.
So opening up the conversationaround it.
is another reason as to why weshare so much of what we do.
SPEAKER_01 (44:05):
And I think from– I just want to put my perspective
on that as well because Iabsolutely love everything that
you do.
And I grew up in a fairly angryhousehold where my dad and my
brother were pretty, yeah, justangry in terms of their
(44:25):
emotions.
And so for me being on thereceiving end of that, when I
left home– Anytime someone wouldyell at me or anything along
those lines, I was like, no, notme.
I'll walk away.
And I then saw that trend withthe people I dated as well
because I was like, I don't wantthat.
So rather than that, I'd go thisway.
(44:47):
And it's only in the last coupleof years and being a part of
what you were just talkingabout, that anger isn't a bad
thing.
It's an expression and it's ahealthy expression as well.
It can be a healthy expression.
And I always thought it was abad thing.
But then that's me shining awayfrom conflict.
So if things get hard, I waslike, oh, avoidant, close up,
(45:09):
protection mode, see you later.
SPEAKER_00 (45:10):
And you've seen it expressed in an unhealthy way.
A
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
hundred percent.
Yeah.
So it's healing for both.
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:17):
Like
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
going through things like that.
It's so healing.
There are a lot of women in theroom that it had experienced a
lot of physical abuse, emotionalabuse, sexual abuse from men
that for them was reallydifficult to begin with, to hear
and see and feel.
And seeing them after and thenhaving conversations with them
(45:39):
after about how it made themfeel, it just made my experience
even better.
And look, it's why we have womenon our...
men's retreats, it's why we havemen on our women's retreats
because if it was all men'sretreat and just men's
facilitators, how are weexpecting the men to heal the
(46:02):
wound from the feminine?
It's not possible.
And from day one, because I gotto experience it, we were like,
yep, this has to happen thisway.
And it's changed.
Every retreat's different.
Every retreat changes slightly.
And...
From day one, the men have beena little bit more involved, a
little bit more involved on thewomen's until they're there from
(46:23):
day one and part of every singlepart of it.
And the women, they're moreinvolved, more involved, more
involved on the men's as wellbecause the more we do that, the
more we see of that healing andwounding happen.
SPEAKER_01 (46:35):
Yeah, when you heal yourself, you heal others.
I'm sure we can go into so manymore avenues with this work.
I absolutely love...
everything that you stand for,everything you're doing,
everything that you're creatingwithin Dean as well because I
feel like this work is sopowerful in itself.
And, yeah, just keep doing youand being on that vision and
(46:59):
that mission as well becauseit's so incredibly needed as
well.
So I thank you for that and forgoing first as well and for
showing men that it's okay aswell because that also then
means everything something forthe woman.
SPEAKER_00 (47:13):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
Yeah.
I want to say thank you forcreating this.
It's avenues like this and wherepeople can hear and listen and
that may not come across on mypage or on the Dean's page.
They get to see and feel thiswork.
So thank you for theconversations that you have here
and share.
SPEAKER_01 (47:31):
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
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