Fireman Mentorship as a Recruit Training Officer in the Fire Academy

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
But yeah, it was awesome becauseI would think about during the
week, what were what were we going to be teaching them as far
as skill and task wise, What have we taught them recently and
what can I reinforce or what canI almost preview for those guys
in my engine company. So I give them a little bit of a
flavor of something before we really got into it.

(00:21):
And then of course, I can watch what their strengths, what their
weaknesses were, and then we cankind of tailor skills course to
that. Welcome everybody, Copper State
Fireman Podcast this podcasters for firemen burning the ships of
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(00:42):
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(01:03):
This podcast is for general information use only.
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Solid Foundation Team LLC Let's go.
All right, welcome back, everybody.
I'm sitting down here with Captain Dan Malinowski.
He's got 18 years in the American fire Service.
Current rank is captain specialty salad.
He's a medic TRT career highlights.

(01:25):
He's a three time medic of the year for the fire department
that he currently works for. He's Central AZ regional
emergency medical care technician of the year 2024 W
Valley Hospital Brazo West life saving award of the year.
Dan started a fire fitness groupcalled The Nest during COVID.
It was designed to get candidates ready for the testing

(01:46):
in the American Fire Service when nothing else was available.
Job titles and now the fire service.
He's a mentor now. An RTO, GC, GCC, fire 1 and 2,
captain, EMT, medic, educator, fire for the fire department,
Air Vac, Midwestern University, GCU GCC.
This man teaches pretty much across the entire country right

(02:07):
now. Lisa State ER medic tech for
Banner flight medic, cadet program manager and a DJ on the
side. Big ticket items.
Danny's proud of is he's proud of all the awards he's been
given, which is a laundry laundry list.
We just listened to right there.He's been given the the
opportunities that he's been given.
He's proud to work for the original members of the

(02:28):
department that he works for thelegends of the Air Vac before
they retired. He started in the early days and
went through all the challenges that they faced with growing his
fire department. He appreciates working with the
legendary providers and the experience that they provided
him. And he also runs a YouTube
channel called Medic Junkies. It's training for fire medics

(02:50):
and EMTs. Well, that was a that was a lot
brother. So if if I missed anything,
please interject and thank you for sitting down with us this
morning. How are you, brother?
I'm doing great man. Thank you so much for having me
here. I really appreciate it.
And yeah, it's, it's a mouthful of stuff there, but I just kind
of wanted to highlight that, youknow, 18 years isn't just in the
fire service, but it's a laundrylist, like you said, of just

(03:11):
teaching in all different aspects from EMTs to medics to
NPS to nurses and doctors and everything.
So that adult education is definitely kind of a a
wheelhouse. Gotcha.
And then, you know, we've we talk about it all the time for
the fools and we talk about it on this podcast all the time
about being that constant learner, right.
So Danny's a prime example of not just being a constant

(03:32):
learner, but being that educatortoo.
And for the younger guys out there, just remember it doesn't
matter on the years of service that you have.
It's about the what you do with that time.
So be that constant learner. And then honestly, if you want
to be the best at something, learn it and start teaching it
because that's that's kind of where you grow the most.

(03:54):
And I'm sure Danny agrees with me on that one.
But we're sitting down today to talk about the recruit training
officer. So you just had your first
class, correct. All right.
So everyone always talks about being an RTO, being a career
highlight or coming back to the Academy, giving back.
So that's why I really want to sit down with you.
So you and I had the privilege to be in RT OS together.

(04:14):
We're both our first class. So let's let's go in a deep dive
on that RTO. So coming into the Academy, what
was your expectations? Did it, did it pan out?
So just kind of kind of tell me about the nerves in the
beginning, the everything that you were expecting and not
expecting when you first got to the Academy to do your first
class. I guess my biggest, like unknown

(04:36):
was how physically challenging was it going to be?
I didn't know, right? I had this vision in my head, I
guess kind of like a boot camp style where we're going to be
running all day, doing towers all day and just grinding, you
know? But I was personally pleasantly
surprised. It was more about the actual
tasks and getting functions doneand teaching our job versus just

(04:57):
doing the physical fitness stuff, you know?
OK, so with, with that said too,obviously both are very
important. You, you could be the most
skilled technician out there, the best fireman, but your
cardio's horrible and you have no strength at all and you're
not going to be able to perform those tasks that you you have
all that knowledge with. So tell, tell people that are
that are listening right now on your, your personal opinion,

(05:17):
right? When it comes down to what you
like to do, when it comes down to say skills courses.
So at the Academy, they love to do skills courses in the
morning. That's kind of how we start our
day here. So your version of a skills
course, what are you trying to accomplish with these kids just
to start their morning off? So the skills courses in our
Academy, we did them twice a week, right?
Tuesdays and Thursdays, that wasdefinitely my highlight.

(05:40):
I really look forward to skills courses because that was my time
with my crew to do what I wantedto do.
And how big was your crew for the Academy?
Four people. They're your engine company base
leader. Yeah, my engine company, I had
two recruits from my own department and I had two others
from two different departments. So a little bit of a mix there.
But yeah, it was awesome becauseI would think about during the
week, what were what were we going to be teaching them as far

(06:03):
as skill and task wise, What have we taught them recently and
what can I reinforce or what canI almost preview for those guys
in my engine company. So I give them a little bit of a
flavor of something before we really got into it.
And then of course, I can watch what their strengths, what their
weaknesses were, and then we cankind of tailor a skills course
to that. Good deal.

(06:24):
So would you, would you purposely look ahead on the
schedule and say, OK, so today we're going to do ground ladders
all day? Yep.
So if that's the case, how wouldyou tailor your skills course
for that day? Would you beat them up on the
ladders? Would you just introduce them?
Or would you do everything but ladders?
What's what's your mindset on that?
No, I mean, since you mentioned ladders, think about the 35.
So maybe a week or two before wewere going to introduce the 35,

(06:47):
all I would have them do is put the ladder against the wall and
just raise it up together, go vertical.
So it's just more of a shoulder pump and I'd make them do do
that five times each and then switch sides, right?
So they're getting a shoulder workout and then they're just
getting that teamwork with the two of them raising the 35 and
at least they get that concept. And then maybe the following
skills course the next couple days that we do it, maybe

(07:08):
they'll raise it a little bit, right?
And then maybe on that third skills course, now we're going
to start finding targets. We're going to find a window,
we're going to find a ledge. So we kind of build into the
actual functional task of it. Copy so that's that's that's
good. So you're not even you're not
looking for the the day of, right.
You're looking weeks ahead of time to kind of start prepping

(07:28):
these kids. And so is that kind of how you
took the entire Academy is at least for that skill course,
Excuse me, that skill course section of prepping them like a
week or two ahead of time. Oh yeah, absolutely.
So a couple other things like hose line management.
So before we jumped into that, afew weeks prior, I would just
hook up hose lines in the building and make them hump the

(07:51):
hose around corners. Once we started getting our
hands on hose, then I would put the smoke Shields over their
masks and blind them. So now they're working in the
dark, they're having to communicate, they're having to
bump up the line, all these little parts of hose line
management before they get into the formal days of training for
survival. We were using the window props,
store props, things that we can crawl through, jump through,

(08:14):
using tools as ladders, you nameit.
Using each other to boost each other up.
Just kind of prepping for that survival week.
Cool good deal. So you said in the Academy that
you worked with and then the company that you were assigned
with had recruits from your city, correct.
And then other cities, do you find it a challenge or how do

(08:34):
you relate to these other cities?
How's that work for you? The system you work in the
Academy that you're an RTO at, how does explain to listeners
how that would work? Because across the country
that's, that's, that's differentthat you're going to have one
Academy that has multiple different cities, counties, fire
districts, whatever, all workingmaybe underneath the recruit
training officer that doesn't even work for that city, right?

(08:56):
Right. Yeah, No, I didn't think it was
any problem whatsoever because we're extremely blessed to work
in the system that we do, right,with automatic aid.
So it was pretty much flawless. I know these guys are going to
be doing pretty much the exact same job regardless of what city
they're in, so we just worked asone team.
And that's good. And, and for everyone listening
too, it's the the skills that are taught at the Academy are

(09:17):
regional. So the city that Danny works for
compared to the city I work for,compared to maybe one of the
recruits that was employed by one of the other cities, we all
do the same tactics, the same lingo, right?
And we deploy and the state skills are all the same.
So it's easily taught, correct? You kind of feel like that.
Yeah. So I agree with you.

(09:37):
I didn't think there was any issues, but I know guys are are
are going to be asking that question.
So we talked about the skills course.
OK, so that's two days a week. That's not a big deal.
Physically, before we get into all the tasks and everything
else, what else would you guys do with the kids for physical
training outside of the skill sets besides the skill courses?
So you talking about like Monday, Monday?
Wednesday, Friday. Whatever.

(09:59):
Whatever the schedule. Was Monday, Wednesday, Friday
they had the PT cadre, they takethem up, they do some
calisthenic type stuff, they'd be in the weight room, They do a
lot of more cardio based type training.
And then the Tuesdays, Thursdayswere skills courses.
And then of course all day they're in their gear and
grinding. You know, we had a couple other
things like 22 towers and memoryof 9/11.

(10:21):
We did that twice. We did sub 20, which is
basically all in PTS cardio course type thing that you have
to do ideally under 20 minutes or as close to it.
Am I missing anything else I canthink of?
I know that's the majority of wetalked about.
If you listen back at Captain Healy's episode about our hiring
process, he talks more detailed about the sub 20.

(10:43):
So if you if you want more information, look for Connor
Healeys episode and that will kind of break that down a little
bit. So you talked about the physical
aspect of the Academy, right? So we've been talking about the
kids the whole time. Let's talk about the RTO.
So let's talk about the captains, right?
So we just said you have 18 years on the job.
How old are you? 38?
OK, so 38 years old, what kind of what kind of challenges does

(11:04):
that face? A 38 year old male, right coming
back and now we're working out right and exercise and, and
doing these skills with 18 to 25year old kids.
Like how does how does that work?
Talk to the audience about that.Yeah, I'll be honest, I was
definitely nervous about it because I've always believed in
being the one leading from the front, right?
You got to be the example to these guys.

(11:24):
And as I've told everybody that I've worked with, I will never
make you do something I'm not willing to do myself.
So I'm not just going to tell them to go do something.
I'm going to go do it with them,right.
So before the Academy, I was making sure that I was running,
I was hitting towers, I was doing skills courses pretty much
a daily and a lot of times by myself.
Sometimes I try to get some groups together.

(11:46):
I would try to work with either our cadets or the recruits
coming in. I'm just trying to build some of
those bonds beforehand and get that group exercise mentality
going on. But yeah, that that was my
biggest thing is just man, I'm definitely twice the age now
almost as some of them. And yeah, I didn't want, I don't
want to look like the old beat up guy, you know?
Right, No, no, and and I had thesame reservations, right.

(12:08):
I'm 43 now. So it was it was the same deal.
And I'm going, man, I'm like, I feel like I'm going through the
Academy all over again. But what guys don't understand
is when it if, if you have anxiety about things along those
lines, like, and I get it, the good firemen like Danny myself
sitting down right now, we, I hate to say, but we want to be
the best, right? I know you feel like that.

(12:29):
I know I feel like that. And the idea that someone can
outperform us is, is nerve wracking, right?
Age doesn't matter, size doesn'tmatter anything else.
But you got to remember at that point.
And I'm, I'm curious on your personal opinion on this.
You don't have to be the fastest, the strongest, right?
You're the one that has the mostknowledge at that point, right?
And your job is to pass it down.But more importantly, like you

(12:52):
said before, you're just in the grind with them.
You don't need to be the best, right?
They're younger, they're stronger, they heal a lot
quicker, right? But you're the knowledge base
and you're there to just kind ofshow them.
So how do you feel about that when it comes down to comparing
with the entire the Academy between the Rtos, the other
kids, the recruits, everything like that?
Well, a couple things, and I'm sure most of you yourself can

(13:14):
probably attest to this if you think of any kind of fire you've
been on where in your younger days, maybe you have that older,
saltier captain who never works out, never does skills courses.
And also and you pop a job and that guy will kick your ass in
gear and he just goes and goes and goes forever.
And you're like, what the hell? This guy hasn't trained a day in
his life that I've seen since I've been here, right?

(13:35):
But obviously he's been on the job for quite a while.
And this one guy I'm thinking ofcame from another department.
I was a lot busier back in the day too.
And they just know how to work in their gear, right?
They've they've accustomed theirbody to it and maybe they've
learned how to work smarter, notharder kind of a thing.
So but then also just when it comes to training in general,

(13:56):
whether it's for me or for the recruits, the job doesn't matter
how old you are. Like, no, the fire doesn't care
if you're the old guy. The young guy victims don't
care, right? They just expect a fireman to
come put the fire out and to come rescue them.
So whether I'm twice the age is the new recruits or I'm the same
age like in my earlier days whenI started off, I was pretty much

(14:17):
their age. It doesn't matter.
You still got to train to the job, not to your age, if that
makes sense. No, no, I love it and I love
exactly what you said and that'sa really good time stamp right
there. The fire doesn't carry your age,
doesn't carry your experience level, how many years you have
on the job right? You could be a booter, literally
eight O 5 in the morning on yourfirst day on your first rotation
and you catch a very good job, right?

(14:39):
Or maybe a career job or it could take 20 years to get
there. It like I said, the fire doesn't
the fire doesn't care. So we talked about the physical
aspect of let's really get into your job here at the Academy,
the instructing side of it. So out of everything that since
this is pretty fresh in your head of everything you did this
last Academy class, what was your favorite thing you did

(15:00):
either a class skills course, evolution, comply, whatever.
What was your favorite thing about this Academy when it came
down to something that you were involved in teaching?
So a couple things back to the skills course.
I think this goes back to my days on the one and two a a
phrase I heard a lot when I usedto be a mentor in the one and
two was well, we don't need to teach them that because they'll

(15:21):
learn that in the quote, real Academy, the full time Academy.
I remember hearing that too well.
Back then, our department ran reserves and I knew the way that
our department kind of hired andrecruited was straight out of
the one and two. So once they graduate the one
and two, they could literally get hired in two weeks be
sitting in the back seat with me.
They don't have a no Academy. Because the one and two was

(15:41):
their Academy. So I knew from personal
experience that if we don't teach them that now, then what
are they going to do when they're actually on the truck
soon, right? Like they, they need to know
that now because this is all they're going to get.
So again, back in the skills course, that's kind of my
mentality of this is my chance to kind of preview what we're
going to teach them, but also give them more of a, a spin or

(16:04):
real world flair to it. That will prepare them for a
real call and for the field, right?
Because they may not get that inthe 45 minutes or hour and a
half that we have for that station, right?
No, I and, and before you go on that, like we've everyone
listened to this, that's been through an Academy probably more
than five or six years ago or whatever, probably has the same

(16:24):
experience that you and I did. Like when we first went to the
Academy, it was OK, we're going to do it like this in the
Academy, right? But then in the real world, the
boys will teach you. So that's exactly what you're
talking about, taking away that,hey, we're going to teach you a
version of firefighting, but that's not going to happen
issues you get on the field so. Yeah, and with that in mind, I
got to give a huge shout out to our lead RTO and whoever has

(16:47):
created what The Academy Is now.Because, yeah, I've had so many
booters or new people come through over the years where
it's like, oh, well, this is what I was taught in the
Academy. And it's like, OK, we're not
doing Academy way, we're doing functional way, right.
But this Academy, I was very pleased to see that we put a lot
of emphasis on functional tasks and we kind of skipped that
whole Academy thing. And I know you've talked about

(17:08):
training scars a lot in your broadcast.
We skipped a lot of those scars and went right down to the down
and dirty. What are we going to expect them
to do in the field? So I I thought that was awesome.
Yeah, and, and I wholeheartedly agree with you.
And it was something that I was also surprised coming here
because until you experience a very well oiled machine like
this Academy is right now, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

(17:30):
There's a lot there was there's very little that's still in
there like, hey, listen, there'sthings that we have to do for
the state. We have to teach you this way.
This is a state curriculum that we need to sign off that's going
to be evaluated by a state employee.
You know, it's but outside of that, you're right.
It's like, hey, let's cover those basic skills and then from
here we're going to teach you how we expect you to do it on

(17:52):
day one, which is I think foreign to a lot of academies, I
believe. So it's something that I, I
wholeheartedly believe that right here in the region that we
work in, this Academy does a very, very, very good job with
that. So when it comes to that real
world thing, what had what were you involved in teaching that
you think is the biggest change for real world firemen tactics

(18:12):
that's now being taught in the Academy compared to say when you
and I went through? Oh, search and rescue 100% the
VEISVES targeted however the hell you want to call it, right?
It's all the same thing. We know that that was a huge
like blessing, I think to teach that here because as we've
talked to on duty crews and everyone that we know, maybe

(18:35):
half the people know what that is like.
That's a new concept out here inthe valley.
Yet it's been a thing across thecountry for a long time, right?
I mean, I Dang near got written up for it couple years ago for
teaching it because it was, quote, too far outside the box.
But now we're teaching it in theAcademy and we got away from
that concept of being on all fours, crawling like a baby
through a building where you're slow, you're not effective,

(18:57):
you're missing a lot of area. And now we're getting into it.
We're being aggressive. We're searching through windows,
going in through maybe ahead of the hose line or the non
conventional entry points, you know?
Yeah, I thought that was great. Yeah, it's it.
It's funny too. I I believe I could be way off.
This is just my opinion. I believe why we're being so
successful with these newer tactics.

(19:18):
And I say newer, they're not newer to the American Fire
Service. They're just newer to us in our
system. But it's, I don't even know
where I was going with that, butit was the, I think it's because
we're bringing in, oh, that's why it was.
We're bringing in these instructors that are younger
now. So we're bringing in guys as an
instructor because they have theexperience in that modality that

(19:40):
we're trying to teach and everything else.
Let's use Kevin White's for example, right?
He was our first episode president of Copper State Fools.
Quick shameless plug on that one.
But so for example, Kevin does not have a lot of time with the
department he currently works for, but he teaches here all the
time for search tactics because he is very good at teaching very
aggressive oriented search tripod method.

(20:02):
Then enter, search, targeted search, everything else.
Where I believe, and again, thisis my opinion prior to it was
like, no, you can't come in and teach until you have 20 some odd
years on the job. But the problem is, is what we
were running into. And again, personal opinion, I'm
curious on how you feel about this with your department and
your personal experiences. Is those senior guys, no shade

(20:23):
on them, but when they came in to teach, they were teaching
what they taught, what they weretaught 20 years ago, which is
like what you said, crawling like a baby, right?
We don't enter windows, right? We take a never lose.
Never lose your hand line. You always stay right on it.
You don't get off. Right, all that stuff.
So I mean it let's talk about itlike it's do you agree?
Like is it because is it becauseof the instructors that we're

(20:43):
bringing in or do you think people are just finally starting
to branch away from what was always done like, hey, it's OK
to experiment because of the wealth and knowledge that's now
available. It's.
Probably mostly because of technology.
YouTube, right? YouTube Academy is probably the
best thing I've used in all of my own personal education.

(21:03):
I watch it religiously and you see all these different tactics,
techniques from all over the country.
I just feel between that and Instagram and just other guys
migrating this way like yourselfand bringing other ideas in.
I mean, especially in our state where the melting pot and the
fire service is no different, right?
So I think we're just starting to learn to be smarter and we're

(21:25):
learning things that are just different.
You know, take forcible entry, for example.
I really love that we're spending so much time and
emphasis on that because when I was taught a Halligan, I was
told the ads is not for prying and I was told it's not a
striking tool. And so like you would not use
your Halligan to smash into an axe as a wedge and you wouldn't

(21:46):
use the ads for anything other than just maybe to quickly roll
maybe a security door, right? That's about it.
So obviously we know that's dumband we've definitely gotten
beyond that, but it's just sillythings like that that we were
completely incorrectly taught back in the day, or we maybe hit
a tiny bit of it and then we moved on.

(22:07):
Yeah, right. So I feel like we put a lot of
emphasis, at least in this Academy on forcible entry, on
the searching, and we spent a ton of time back to the original
question, kind of my favorite thing was how much ventilation
we did. We were on that roof almost a
couple few weeks probably all together.
And again, I've heard from otherrecruits that have come through

(22:28):
other classes where they maybe got to cut not even a handful of
holes the entire Academy, whereas we were cutting 4-5 in
one day on some of the days and then we would do a.
Commercial. Yeah.
And we got to do the skills courses.
We got to use some of those props.
We would either be using saws, we would go manual and axe our
way through the props. I thought we got a lot of time

(22:48):
on vent and I really, really loved doing that stuff.
I kind of found my little niche,I guess, in that spot with our
Academy. No, I love it.
And I, I agree with you too, because I always felt like
across, I shouldn't say across the nation from my experiences
with the two academies that I went through back East and then
here, I always felt like the ladder work section of it.

(23:11):
And I'm not just talking about ventilation.
I'm talking all ladder work was barely touched.
And it's it, it, it was, it was it.
We got tiny little tidbits. And then the rest was pretty
much. So hey, when you get in the
field, you get spun up by a senior ladder captain or senior
ladder Lieutenant or whatever the case might be, or a senior
fireman. And you'll learn it from there.
And of course, you got in the field, the guys mother fuck you
until you pick it up. Hopefully you're a good dude and

(23:31):
you pick it up quickly and you're aggressive.
We, we, we all know how it kind of works out, But I was in the
same boat because we spent so much time and I can only speak
for obviously what we experienced together on ladder
functions, heavy functions, things like that.
So for an example, something I was proud of with this Academy
when it came down actually teaching the kids is when we

(23:53):
were doing garage door cuts, right?
So I used to be a garage door guy.
So I, I, I know garage doors andanatomy and their failure points
pretty, pretty well, but it's funny.
So I would set up the kids wherethe energy companies like Danny
was talking about four dudes. So I would set them up after
teaching them. So I'd have AK12 with a
composite blade, right? So for cutting metal for

(24:13):
everyone that knows that right, then AK14 that has a multi
blade, so diamond tip, it cuts everything really well except
for wood. It kind of cuts wood.
OK. And then a chainsaw without a
carbide tip. And in the field we carry
chainsaws with carbide tips. All I had them do was grab the
K12, make a down cut right, put it down off, start the K14 same

(24:34):
deal down cut, chainsaw down cut.
Then they did lateral cuts and then at the end I asked them all
the same question which one was faster?
Every single one said the chainsaw.
And these are aluminum residential, either insulated or
non insulated doors. And there is a huge
misconception out there that youcannot use a chainsaw.
So instead of telling guys, hey,you can use a chainsaw, I want

(24:54):
them to experience that and decide for themselves and what
they're going to pick. Then after that's done, I take
that crew of four, right? One has a Pike pole so you can
be able to pull the door and push it in.
And then I have the entire crew do the evolution.
OK, we're going to go ahead and cut this door open up the
garage. So I always have the K12 on one
side, the chainsaw on the other side, and the K14 going across

(25:17):
being the heaviest tool, right? And I tell them, when you're
done with your cut, assist your brothers and sisters finishing
the rest. Well, guess what?
The chainsaw ends up doing everything right?
And it's, it's because it just, it's so much faster and you
can't experience it till you actually try it.
And then they, they go through the evolution.
Then I ask them the same question again.
All right, So if your boss right, you get on the job and

(25:38):
they're like, Hey, open up the garage.
What's the first saw you're grabbing?
Every single recruit said the same thing.
Chainsaw. Prior to that class, they were
taught by senior guys. And again, no shade on them.
They're asked, Hey, how would you cut a garage door?
And one member had talked to me prior and said chainsaw.
And they go, no, right. And he did the right thing.
He shut up and listened, right? Which is what you should do.
And so I told him all the same thing.

(25:59):
Hey, this is what you do. If your captain tells you to
grab something different, do what your fucking captain tells
you to do, then you can have a conversation afterwards.
And what I'll tell him is I'm like, hey, listen, and I, I know
you agree with me on this one. There's a lot of things.
And I want to talk about a couple of those with you today
that they are the tip of the spear in our system because it's

(26:20):
brand new being taught that was never taught prior to the last
couple classes. Kind of like where you're
targeted with then enter search,targeted search, oriented
search, tripod, the whole 9. But garage door cuts is another
thing that was never taught in the Academy.
So I always tell them the same thing, you know, do what your
boss tells you to do. And then after the fire's out or
after the call's over, that's the point where you say, hey,

(26:43):
Cap, hey, Lieutenant, hey, senior fireman, whatever the
case might be, we were taught, right?
We could use this because of right.
And then we compared all three tools together and it was
faster. Next shift.
Is there any way you can go to the Academy and I can practice
again or show you, right. And those are like the kind of
approaches. And I'm curious on how you think
about that when it comes down tothese newer tactics that these

(27:05):
kids are learning coming down the field.
And then come into that 20 year captain or Lieutenant with this
idea that they've never tried before.
Like how do you, how do you kindof feel about how they need to
approach that? Yeah.
Or how do you get those? You got to be ready for that.
Correct. Maybe a brand new guy.
You got to kind of dance around it a little bit, right?
But I think as long as you approach it right, you should be

(27:26):
able to have those conversationsbefore the call happens or after
and just say, hey, like, what about this?
You know, this is what I was shown before.
And the guys might look at you sideways and be like, what the
hell, Why would you do that? Be like, I don't know, but
that's what they showed us. And there you go.
All right, all right, well try it.
Let's try it out, Let's see whatworks.
And they might have complete doubt.

(27:47):
But again, once you see it, you're like, oh man, that
actually works really well. Right, right.
And I've had those experiences myself too, years ago, just
because you're kind of bring this up.
We were taught one specific way how to do the Denver drill, how
to package, how to move them. And again, I was very active in
the one and two at that point. We did the Denver drill all the
time with the students. And so I was very used to one

(28:09):
way. Well, we got in the middle of
this drill and the training chief is watching us.
We're trying to get this guy packaged up ready to push out
the the window. And the captain has one way in
his head that he knew from way back when.
And I had one way in my head. And we definitely were butting
heads. And it's pretty obvious there.
And I'm ashamed to say it like it, but this was a huge learning

(28:30):
point for me in my career because finally I kind of just
rolled my eyes and said, F it, whatever, let's do it.
And it worked. And I'm going, holy crap, it
actually worked, right? And then I know the chief had
some words with the captain, like, hey, what's wrong with
your guy? Like I earned that discipline
that came after, but that was a huge eye opener that maybe there
are multiple ways to skin a cat,right?

(28:51):
And sometimes you just got to shut up and do what the captain
says. And then you have that
conversation afterwards like, wow, I didn't think that was
going to work. Or maybe I have a a different
way that might be better. But the only way you're going to
find out is if you actually get out there and train.
So hopefully with those new guys, have a crew and have a
captain that are willing to go try.
It's all trial and error, right?You can't just say one way works

(29:12):
and that's my way. You have to be willing to try
multiple ways numerous times andthen make an educated decision
because you might try 5 things one time each.
But some things don't exactly gothe way you planned.
Maybe there's a mistake here, mistake there, and then that
leads to screw that way. I don't like that way.
Well, 'cause we just brand new, we haven't tried it.

(29:32):
We didn't work out the flaws, right.
Like the 2 1/2, now that's a bigthing is going long and doing a
reset with the 2 1/2. Well, some crews are pulling 100
feet off, disconnecting, puttingit back in the truck.
Some people are pulling the whole 200 foot 2 1/2.
Which way is going to be faster?You don't know until you get out
there and you do it right. So and then you have to have all

(29:53):
members of your crew and some ofthese things actively
participating in it because it'sa crew function, right?
Yeah, no, no exactly. And like I said, wholeheartedly
agree with you on that one. So to back-to-back to the
position that you were just in as an RTO.
So we talked about what you really liked about the Academy.
So what was your least favorite part about the Academy when it

(30:15):
comes down to your just your personal experience as an
instructor or I shouldn't say, what's the worst part?
What was the most challenging for you, I should say.
The most challenging? Yeah.
Was it the schedule? Was it?
Oh yes, 100. Percent, yes.
Yeah. For me personally, I absolutely
hate the schedule. I'm the guy.
Like everybody knows me in the department.
They joke that I'll be the guy. Cracks a monster open at 1212 in

(30:38):
the morning. Yeah, just to get a little extra
work in and do something like I'm going to bed normally
anywhere between midnight and 2-3 in the morning.
And now I'm waking up at 334 getting ready to go to the
Academy, right? I've never worked a 40 hour job
in my life, so that schedule is completely different now to me.
And I just feel like, you know, you wake up super early, you go

(30:59):
grind all day, you go home within a couple hours, you're
ready to pass out. You're exhausted, right?
So you don't get anything done during the week.
You're trying to play catch up on the weekend, but now you're
also trying to hang out with thefamily or have some personal
time to do something. And then it's just your
weekend's over and now you repeat.
Do it again. Yeah, it, you know, it's the the
amount of effort and time and energy that you have to commit

(31:21):
as an RTO is something that you're not prepared for, I
think, until you actually do it.And you're right, like the
schedule, the schedule sucks Monday through Friday.
Like the only time I've had a Monday through Friday was when I
went to TRT in high school, right.
Then it's just like, and then back at the Academy now and I'm
like, man, how do people do this?
Like the general public? Fuck this.

(31:41):
Like how do you get shit done? Like you try to go to Costco on
the weekend and you're like, I'mnot going to go to Costco on
Saturday. The busiest day.
I'm like, are you fucking kidding me?
But it's it's funny, like as firemen, we're so used to our
schedule where other people like, how do you work 24 hours
be like, how do you work 8 hours?
Right. That shit sucks.
You got to work all the time. At least I knock.
I had it in my. House, but I was in a every

(32:03):
weekend I would go to the station and wash my gear, work
out while I'm there waiting. Hell no, I'm freaking tired.
I'm going to take advantage sleeping in a little bit.
I'm going to go go do all my shopping.
Yeah, it no way. Yeah, I had the insight that I
was going to work overtime everysingle Saturday, right?
To do a partial, maybe even 24, stay on the truck and everything
else, it's like, hell no. I have so much stuff I need to
do and I'm exhausted now. Like the last thing I want to do

(32:25):
is go to work again or, you know, day number six and then do
a do a 24 or A10 or A12 or whatever.
Yeah. Well, I did because I jumped
back into the one and two this time because they're doing
everything here, right? Facility.
So on Wednesdays I would usuallybe all day here with our
Academy, and then I would stay do the class at night with the
one and two. And then on Saturdays I'd come
back on some of those. And then either Saturdays or

(32:47):
Sundays we'd have cadet meetingshalf the time too.
So it was like almost 6-7 days aweek.
I'm doing MC, S, S and Fireground stuff and it's like
Oh my God I need a break. So how, how do you get somebody
or I shouldn't say that? Let's let me rephrase this
question. Why would you want to do this
job then? Because you just said the
schedule sucks. It absorbs all your time.

(33:09):
It takes time away from the family.
You're physically, mentally exhausted.
Why in the world would anybody want to do this?
Like why did you want to do this?
I think we owe it to those that are coming behind us.
Everything that we learned or everything that we know was
taught to us in some fashion, some way.
Somebody showed us a way somebody was willing to work
with us or train on a certain task with us.

(33:32):
We weren't able to do any of this by our own.
So we have to pay it forward to everybody that comes before and
the knowledge that we have, it'slife saving, right?
So and I, you know, I kind of use the Academy in teaching is
almost a way to live through my students because you've talked
on their podcast like I don't wish harm on anybody, but I want

(33:54):
to run all the crazy awesome calls, right?
I, I don't train this hard to sit on my butt and do nothing,
but I can't be everywhere at once.
So if I can at least help any oreverybody else with some tasks,
some skills, some knowledge, some Pearl that they can use to
save a life or to make someone'sday a little bit better, then

(34:14):
that's worth it to me, you know?And I, dude, that's, that's it
right there. It's everything you said, but
especially in the beginning, it's, it's our duty to give it
back, right? And I give credit to him when I
say it because he, he's the first one that said it to me and
I love it. And you basically said it in
different words, but none of us were born with this information
one taught us, right? So shame on us.

(34:37):
And I was actually just listening to podcast this
morning. It was a fire engineering, not
sure if it was a recent one or whatever the case might be, but
they were talking to very young members in the fire service that
we're doing very well and hard chargers and are probably going
to be very big in the fire service in the near future.
But they're, they're, they're asking them like the why, Like
the why would you commit so muchtime and energy and everything

(34:59):
else. And the one female on there, her
first experience was with a college program.
So it was like engine #3 I thinkthey called it in.
But with that is it was run by the college kids, right?
And it was almost like a department.
So they came in as a freshman. You're the booter, right?
And then when you make it to a senior in college, you might be
the deputy chief or the Fire Chief of this made-up fire

(35:22):
department, right, with this. But they had a fire engine and
they had to check off stuff and they had to, you know, go
through EMT and they had to run like medical calls and things
along those lines. I don't know all The Dirty
details, but what really resonated with me and why I'm
why I mentioned it now is that if they stopped, they literally
said the department would die because that's the only way they

(35:43):
keeps going is the next guy gives back, right?
The senior gives to that freshman.
The freshman works all the way up to the senior and then does
it again, right? Rinse and repeat.
And that's a college program. It's that is the American fire
Service, right? That senior guy teaches a junior
guy and eventually everyone getsseniority, right.
And what kind of senior fireman,Lieutenant, captain, battalion,
are you going to be, or you be the guy that just milks the

(36:05):
system, right and enjoys the benefits of the job.
Or you could be the one to be like, Hey, I want to make sure
that the guys below me are better than I was, or they get
to the position I'm at quicker, right?
Because because I want to give them that info instead of like
when we first started, it took along time to get all this
information because that they'redating ourselves a little bit,

(36:27):
right? But like the Internet wasn't
like involved in our entire lives.
Like they, like we were alive when the Internet became which
is, which is weird to say, but it's, it's you know, like we
have access to all this information where I believe now
a 2 year fireman, if they're a hard charger, can get a shit
load of information without having to travel really far.

(36:47):
Oh yeah, for sure. OK, so it's yeah and.
You got to think about too. I mean, we are all replaceable
at one point. Every single one of us is going
to retire. We're going to move on.
And I don't want any of that knowledge to go with me or die,
right. So again, we have to pass it
along if we expect that fire department to continue and to
progress because ultimately why are we here?

(37:08):
We are here for them, we are here for the citizens.
And I don't know about you, but I've had 911 called on my family
members normal or multiple timesand I've had to call for my own
family multiple times. And what I expected just
subconsciously was a well trained, proficient crew.

(37:29):
Whether it's for fire, medical, rescue, whatever.
I expected them to come and fix the problem, right?
Well, if I expect a stranger crew to come serve my family and
be perfect at it, how dare I expect myself to do any less for
someone else? No, I love it.
That's it. That's that's good.

(37:49):
And I hope that resonates with alot of people, right.
We always say, do you want it? You know, would you want you to
respond to your house? Right.
But that's exactly what you're saying, like real life
experience where you've had to call 91 and that's what, hey,
that's what I expect as a fireman for these crews to come
in. So what do you think the public
expects even more, even more than what we expect because we
know what goes into all of this,right between the call take and

(38:12):
the crew that's responding and where they're responding from
and everything else and all the all those things trying to get
back on track a little bit. So we talked about the schedule
being crappy. We talked about all the stuff
that you really loved about it. What do you believe?
Again, your personal opinion, what is still left right now in
the American Fire Service that you're seeing in the Academy

(38:34):
level? All right, Doesn't necessarily
have to be this Academy, but just in general personal
opinion, right? What are we still lacking for
these recruits that you noticed when they come out into the
field or that you've heard not even with your department but
just nationwide? What do you feel like we're
lacking at the recruit level that we could improve on right
now, in your opinion? That's funny, whatever.

(38:56):
One of the recruits right after graduation kind of asked me the
same thing, what I would, what Iwould change.
I wish we could actually migrateto multiple different academies
just to get a different footprint of their buildings
because you know, we go in and out of the same building
constantly everyday. You get to know the floor plan
like the back of your hand. It's really not much of a

(39:17):
challenge after so long. So I wish we could mix it up and
go into different buildings And I, I wish like in the field, if
I get a new guy, I love to go out to neighborhoods that are
under construction and go find astick house and again, make him
go throw a ladder to that windowor that belt in here.
Let's go take a plug in the mostweird, bizarre position.

(39:37):
Maybe one of those plugs that are locked in between walls,
maybe there's brush or obstacles, vehicles, whatever,
right. Obviously you start taking a
whole Academy out into the wild,so to say we're going to
probably break some stuff and itcaused some problems.
But I I just wish we could mix it up a little bit, throw some
curve balls at them. I wish we did do a few more
functional burns where we can try different approaches and

(40:00):
give everybody that same kind ofexperience.
But obviously I know it's a timecrunch.
I know it's a financial thing, but you know, that's a wish.
Yeah, no, I mean, that's a it's a pipe dream.
But again, that's kind of why I was asking.
It's like, you know, what could you, what, what, what could you
change? What could we do better?
Because as soon as I, I firmly believe, as soon as we say, hey,

(40:21):
we're doing a good job right? Then we're we're not
progressing. I was pleasantly pleased that
this Academy, my expectation of academies was more basic stuff,
but this one seemed to be prettyon point for the allotted time
that we had. What we could do with them
seemed to be pretty efficient for a new recruit firefighter,

(40:44):
right? Copy.
I guess one thing that we practically maybe could change
if we could get a little extra time would be to be a little bit
more in the classroom so we weren't so rushed.
Because I feel like everything we tried to teach them, we were
just rush, rush, rush. You get an hour to teach a whole
topic. Like that's not enough time,
right? But that would probably mean

(41:04):
that we need like a whole notherweek or something added.
We need yeah, my personal opinion, I think the, so the
Academy that both of us have been recruit trained officers at
is 16, well 13 official weeks, right.
But it's probably about 15 or 16total depend on the city with
pre and post Academy and things like that.
But I honestly believe, and it it might sound ridiculous, I

(41:26):
think Academy should be about 6 months because that would a lot.
Hey, we're going to do whatever skill we're introducing today.
Let's let's talk ground ladders,right?
So we're going to introduce ground ladders today.
We get a half a day to teach it in the classroom and then we can
grind for a week on it. Where and I, I agree with you
because we talk classes togetherand literally like a points like

(41:47):
you're tapping me going, bro, you're out of time or I'm
tapping you go, Hey, Dan, you got 5 more minutes.
And they're because they're screaming like, Hey, get the
kids down here. Because I mean, we're, we're on
the clock. We're on the clock.
So, and, and again, it's obviously money thing and
everything else. How do you feel about the were
you ever prior military? OK, I know you have military
family, right? How do you feel, again, personal

(42:09):
opinion, how do you feel about the militaristic versions of
academies that are out there? So I was listening to a guy I
believe was Kansas City, and they run a very militaristic
Academy. Same with Prince William County,
Virginia, I believe too. So everyone has a different
flavor. We're kind of like a little bit
in the mix that are in the middle there.

(42:30):
How what's your personal opinionon it when it comes down to that
militaristic Academy? Yes, Sir.
No, Sir. But more importantly, like the
the, the image of it where they're running together,
they're marching, they're walking, you know, everything's,
everything's in place, in line, everyone's dialed in.
What's your opinion on that? Does it matter?
Does it not? And no, good question.
I think there's a double edged sword here.

(42:51):
So I got two different kind of opinions or views of it is one.
I think of how I learn. I would love it.
I, I wish I went through more ofa a boot camp style Academy
where people are yelling and screaming like that's how I
thrive. That's how I learned like Mike
Patton when he would do medical school, right?

(43:11):
Pre code. Yeah, yeah.
The veins bulging out of his forehead.
He'd throw books at your face ifyou were falling asleep.
Like, I love that. Yeah.
It kept you awake and kept you engaged, right.
But if you were to have that kind of mindset with most of the
newer generation, they would crumble.
They would fall like, and I see this all the time with teaching
EMT and medic stuff with the newer guys is that they get so

(43:32):
flustered and they can't think, they can't process.
They lock up right. So you have to be a little bit
more of a, a mentoring kind of instructor to help build them
up. You know, military does a good
job of breaking everybody down and they build them up.
I think maybe in the fire service, we got the breakdown
part pretty good, especially through probation and whatnot,

(43:55):
but then we leave them. Yeah, we don't really do the
build up part. So the way that I personally
learn and the way that I teach are polar opposites.
Again, I I like being yelled at,screamed at, throwing stuff at
me, whatever, keep me in the trenches.
But what I'm teaching, it's moreof a a mentor aspect and just
trying to be encouraging, positive.

(44:16):
All right, hey, I know you really messed that up, but let's
figure out why you messed it up.What went wrong and how do we
make it better, right? Gotcha.
I my personal opinion on that and the reason why I asked is
just because it's it's always a topic.
I feel like no matter where you go, it's either too strict, not
strict enough. It's no one's ever happy in the
field. When I say like they got the

(44:37):
guys like the guys in the field.No matter what it is, The
Academy Is never up to snuff. But my personal opinion, it's
funny because we share Academy here with PD recruits also and
it is night and day difference if you're ever to watch the
operation. They are.
They have boot camp. It's frustrating.
And then we are the polar opposite and I, I feel like and

(44:58):
they, from what I've been told is they get away with, well, get
away with it. They do it because in the field,
right, in real world, that's howcops are typically talked to.
Like firemen are typically looked at by the public as a
good guys. Cops are typically looked at in
public as a bad guys. Whatever.
We all know what we're talking about, right?
I just, I don't know, don't knowhow else to word it, But they're

(45:19):
used to getting yelled at in thefield, so they want to want them
to get prepped. I believe.
Again, my personal opinion, we're doing our recruits of dis
justice by we could split it if we have it doesn't matter how
long The Academy Is basically almost have like a transition
where the first half of The Academy Is fucking boot camp
where we are breaking them down.But we're very militaristic.

(45:39):
They're marching, they're everything's in order.
Their uniforms are tight. I mean, is that attention to
detail because we talk about it all the time, but physically we
never enforce that attention to detail.
We just show them over and over again when they lack the
attention to detail and what happens with it.
And then again, personal opinion, transition to that more
of a mentor educator. OK, now you're in line, you're

(46:03):
good, you're solid, right? And now we can start dialing in
the the nuances. And hey, this is this is what my
personal story is in my struggle.
When I learn this, let me show you what worked for me.
Maybe that helps them. Right.
And I've learned that through the classes that I teach is you
almost have to put the fear of God into them right up front.
You have to have standards and you got to hold them to those

(46:24):
standards and not sway in any way, right?
I think the biggest key is consistency.
So no matter who it is, what theproblem is, you are consistent
to the policies, procedures or the task that's on hand, right?
So you do that from the very beginning.
You set the tone and then I would find maybe about midterm
or so, that's when things start to click.

(46:45):
They start to bring everything together and that's kind of when
the tone starts to change to more of all right now let's now
we're working together as a team.
We can have a little bit more fun, little bit more relaxed,
but we still have the mission that we have to focus on.
Right. Yeah.
The Academy here, man. When the cops are running
circles around us and you hear them getting yelled at and
they're in their slacks and dress shirts, running towers

(47:05):
with dress shoes and we're in PTS just kind of hanging out
whatever, laughing. Like what the.
I don't understand this. It's the exact same departments
at the exact same facility, but yet PD versus fire is 2 totally
different cultures. I wish.
And I think the biggest problem is we're just so afraid of the
the lawsuits that are out there these days and we don't really

(47:27):
know what's going to bite us in the butt.
I wish there was some formal training that we could get out
here. And I've heard, like I was just
talking to a a chief the other day about this, where they took
a group of Rtos to New York and they went and kind of watched
and observed what they do. I heard that too.
And I could be wrong here but I don't know all the details but
it sounds like they actually send their Rtos to like official

(47:50):
RTO type training right? I wish we had some formalized
training for us prior to the Academy where you bring in a
couple lawyers and you look at previous lawsuits and then they
tell us exactly what does the law say we are allowed to do
because right now we don't have that.
So we're just literally operating out of fear going, I
don't want to have my name on a lawsuit.

(48:11):
I don't want to do that. Well, are we allowed to do that
or are we just afraid to do that, right?
Because I do feel we need to have more structure.
Today's culture and the people, the newer recruits that are
coming in, they lack that structure, right?
And whether it's just a problem with generalized culture, if
it's a problem with education, the school systems, right?

(48:32):
Everybody gets a pass, everybodygets a purple ribbon.
Nobody's held to the actual standards because everyone's
afraid of getting yelled at by the parents, they're afraid of
getting criticized, they're afraid of lawsuits.
So we just keep passing people along, right?
I wish that we had more culture.So starting off with that, yes
or no, Sir? Hey, I've told you three times

(48:53):
and you keep messing this up. You keep wearing a freaking
watch when we tell you not to, all right?
Now you're going to pay for it, right?
And I wish we would do it more as crew stuff too.
If one guy fails, the whole teamfails.
Even if you have 3 recruits out of the four that are studs, at
least they can learn the valuable lesson of, hey, I don't
want to be that guy that causes everybody else to struggle,
right? So I better keep my shit tight,

(49:16):
and at least there's a lesson inthat, right?
I've always told him too, it's like don't ever not capitalize
on someone else's mistake. You know, like learn from other
people's too, because why go through that pain and heartache
if you don't have to, right? Like if your brother goes
through that, like learn from that.
And, and I mean brothers and even as a recruit, like you can
learn from that stuff when it comes down to that hard nosed,

(49:37):
like we, like you're saying, setthe standard from literally day
one minute 1 and then hold them accountable.
And that's something that I believe, I feel like we're
lacking in our system right now.And because of that, I and you
hit the the nail on the head that the problem is when these
kids got in the field, forget the hard nosed captain that on
their first job or whatever, or that really crazy extrication or

(49:59):
something that they have not experienced yet.
And he gives them that quit thatvery aggressive direct order.
And then they're like, shit, youknow, standing mad at me, right?
It's like, no, I just like, you're like, I need you to do
this right now. So I just gave you that direct
order. We can talk about it later.
Like I don't need to say please,thank you.
Everything else we've we've talked about that before, but
take that out of it. And now let's insert the public

(50:20):
right. So we are, we're not always a
good guys. We used to be right.
But now we are looked at as by some people, government
employees, which we are, right. We're all employed by a
government agency of some sort. And there's a good portion of
people out there that do not like government employees to
start with. Then you can take a portion that
don't like public safety and then another person that doesn't

(50:41):
like firemen or whatever the case might be.
So we not necessarily showing upto the house to grant much
merkins that's like, hey, when you guys are done, they're
giving you cookies and everything else and they love us
or whatever that still happens, right, Thank God.
But at the same time, we're met with a lot of aggression from
some of these patients too, especially the urban campers,
right? We can call them that or
whatever, or the Czech welfares and the guys that don't call

(51:04):
because someone else calls and we have to go and we have to
make sure they're OK, right? And then they're motherfucking
us right from the get go in our face and everything else.
And you can take that booter or probie or whatever you call them
in your system. And he has no fucking idea how
to handle that. And when I say how to handle
that is just being able to take the licks, right?
The verbal insults without barking back because.

(51:27):
Not taking a personal. Yeah, not taking it personal.
It's not like they're coming after you directly.
They don't fucking know who you are.
But again, we're doing our members a disservice because
then they're they're barking back right now.
It's an argument. Before you know it, there's a
complaint coming around or whatever the case might be.
And that brand new guy is getting documentation on his

(51:47):
fucking record for something that he was never equipped to
handle. Because shame on us for not
being hard enough on them to be like, it's no big deal, like.
Yeah, they either lock up or they come unglued, and that's
what ends up on the front page of the news.
And both are horrible because they lock up, they can't
function right or they come and glued and you're right then
their headline newspaper firemanloses it.
But you know, you only see 10 second clip compared to the the

(52:10):
minute that was leading up to that.
So. Cool.
Yeah. So if we could be harder on the
move, like, OK, he's yelling at me, whatever.
Like I've heard this before. Yeah, like, like, like that's
it. That's all you got, like.
Yeah, you should have heard Orsini in my face, man.
That guy was scary. Yeah, right.
Like this guy's not on my face. I'm not getting covered in spit
and everything else. It's like it's this is this is
no big deal. You.
Know, I just want to clarify though, there's a there's a

(52:31):
difference between necessarily being like belittling and down
grading somebody, especially in an educational platform, right,
like an Academy or whatever, butyou can still be strict and hard
on a specific task, right? If they keep fumbling a ladder,
OK, why do you not think that I'm getting so pissed off at

(52:51):
you? Why do you think that I'm in
your face about this? Well, it's because if someone
dangling from a freaking balcony, when you show up on
scene, you better throw the ladder and get up there as fast
as you can. And if you're fumbling around,
you better believe you're going to be caught on YouTube and
everyone else across the countryis going to see how much you're
fumbling this. And then not to mention the
victim that's going to be, you know, potentially get more harm
because you can't do your job efficiently.
Exactly. Yeah.

(53:13):
And again, attention to detail, right.
And how do you, how do you driveattention to detail in the
Academy setting? It's a hard nose, you know,
drill instructor mentality from the get go.
And then you instill, like you said, you instill that in them
and then you transition to not that buddy, but that mentor
relation. Then it becomes muscle memory,
right? So I always call people with the

(53:33):
idea of at 3:00 AM when you're dog ass tired, you've been
running all day, you're up all night, you haven't really slept
at all. And now you get the call that
that one in a million call of a lifetime where it matters.
How are you going to perform, right?
And now as a captain in our position, it's like, I don't
need to hold your hand because Igot a million things I need to
do, right? I need to give you an order and

(53:54):
trust that you're going to go dosomething while I can break
away, go do a 360. I can go talk to the family.
I can kind of do a size up. I can be on the radio.
I can't do all of that if I'm also having to babysit you and
how you're throwing a freaking ladder to a second floor window,
right? Like, that should be second
nature by now. So yeah, I think those type of
things we should. Absolutely.

(54:16):
At a certain point in the training period, start expecting
perfection and start getting up their ass about it.
If they're not doing it right, then you're going to physically
pay for it. Go run towers or do push ups or
do it again and again and again and again.
Don't worry about the time crunch.
You're going to do this 1000 times.
If you can't get it, or if you're not getting it and we
have a skill sheet for it, then you can't pass the standard,

(54:40):
then you're out. Yeah, this isn't meant for
everybody. Sorry, not sorry.
Yeah, no, I'm glad you said that, because I don't believe
that's said enough. Like there is, there's certain
jobs out there that's not meant forever.
I would love to be an Air Force pilot, right?
I just, that's like outside of this, that's the other thing I
would really love to do, right? But I'm just, I'm not good
enough in math to do be that, right?

(55:01):
My eyesight's not good enough. Like I cannot physically be a
freaking fighter pilot. Like I would have loved to be,
right? Same thing.
Just because you really want to be a fireman doesn't mean that
you can. Yeah, this is not a if you
believe it, you can be it kind of a thing.
Again, fire does not care. Victims don't care.
They expect perfection, that youhave a job to do.
You either do it or you don't. Simple as that.

(55:23):
And in in this is a very unpopular opinion, but again,
it's mine. But you might be too small,
right? Because your system or your city
you work with might have trucks that literally you might not be
tall enough to be able to close the compartment door after you
open it if it's the roll up door.
Like those little things like shame on us for putting people

(55:44):
into that situation and not being honest with them and
saying listen like you're a hardcharger.
Like you might possess all the skills, but physically you just
can't do the job because of yourphysical size.
Not saying that and if you're shorter you can't do this job.
I'm just saying as an example because I've heard that story
where literally there was somebody they had to get let go
because they could not physically close compartment

(56:06):
doors because they weren't tall enough.
Like you can't carry a step stool.
Right. No, there's, there's certain
skills and things that you know as an instructor that's your job
is to get creative and find waysaround some of their
deficiencies. And how can, if they can't do it
one particular way, can they still achieve that task by maybe
manipulating their body or that task a little bit, right?

(56:29):
You just got to get creative. But if you still can't perform
XY and Z at the end of the day, then so be it, right?
I mean, compartments as an easy one, you throw a little strap on
it, right, and you're able to pull it down.
But when you're pulling a hose off of like a Pierce truck, at
least the older ones were so freaking tall.
Yeah, I get that. It's hard for a smaller weight,
shorter person to pull the linesoff, especially to pull it quick

(56:52):
and efficient, right? So.
Now, when it comes down to that too, I I wholeheartedly believe
going back to the Academy and talking about, you know, pipe
dreams, like what we wish thingswere different or, you know, if
we were king of the day or whatever things along those
lines. But when it comes down to like
the physical ability of these recruits, is there anything that

(57:13):
you think that we're lacking prior to them coming to the
Academy to get them ready? Because we talked about in your
intro, like you started the nest, right?
I said that correctly, right. So that was that was something
that you decide to do right for the American fire service
because of the times that we're in.
So your opinion, what are we lacking for the kids coming into
the Academy prior to them showing up for the so they're

(57:35):
prepared for say that day one inyour face attention to detail
stuff? So yeah, we created that one
because, you know, during Covic,nobody was allowed to ride.
Nobody was able to get out and train and get in gear.
But we were still exploding departments around here were we
were hiring. So they were coming in with no
right time, no experience with culture, no physical fitness

(57:56):
really. So that was our Ave.
I mean, despite all the COVID stuff that was going on, kind of
disregarded those rules. But we, yeah, we had a cachet of
stuff that I was able to collectold gear that was getting tossed
out, whatever. Over years.
I had the stuff in my garage. We, my wife and I, decided just
to invite people that we thoughthad potential to our house.

(58:16):
We would get them in all the gear that we could.
And fortunately, we lived right on top of a big old hill.
So it's almost like having a tower right in our front yard,
we had a Greenbelt on the bottomwould pull hose and all sorts of
stuff. So that was a good way to start
getting guys prepared for it. I think one thing, at least in
my department, I know our department as a whole has the
same mentality here. So it's not a knock on our

(58:37):
department as much as the city restrains us from doing a
combine, which seems like I think almost every single city
now in the Academy has some formof pre Academy or combine
concept. And it's, it's pretty much a
night and day difference, man. You can see the recruits that
have gone through a combine thenthat you guys have validated

(58:59):
physically because they do show up and they perform in the
Academy. Whereas we don't always get that
luxury because we don't get to preview, we don't get to see
what they can do physically. We just have to go off of maybe
their interviews or whatever, you know?
So you would you would prefer again, King of the Day, right?
You would prefer that you would have some sort of extreme

(59:22):
physical agility pretest part ofyour Yeah.
Other than the C pad, the C pad,super basic, whatever.
To joke. We have, if we're going to trust
these people to do their job, ifwe think they're going to be
successful in the Academy, if wehave to live with them and work
with them for the next 2530 plusyears, we got to be able to
validate this somehow, right? And again, they have day one,

(59:43):
they could be on that once in a lifetime call where again,
firing victims don't care how much time you have on how much
experience you have, you are expected to perform.
So you better be at the top of your game all the time.
So some kind of physical validation beforehand would be
great. I also personally think that the

(01:00:03):
one and two should be a requirement.
I think getting into this, thinkof any other profession, you
have to go to school if you wantto be a nurse, you have to put
yourself through school. Get the.
Credentials and then go apply. Whereas the fire service is like
the one thing where you can hireJoe blow off the street these
days, have him do a couple interviews and boom, there are
now in an Academy. They've never been in gear in

(01:00:26):
today's culture. How many recruits do we have?
They've never even been on a ride along.
They've never foot stepped foot into your fire station.
Like that blows my mind. That is so freaking wrong.
I think in my opinion, because we have no validation of what
are their abilities, what's their personality like?
What's their integrity like? And I think if you required
people to have a one and two, itwould weed out a lot of people

(01:00:49):
right off the get go. Either they're not meant to be
in the gear, they don't have theright attitude, whatever, right?
And at least when they come intoa full time Academy now they
have an expectation and they know what they're going to have
to do. They've been in gear, they've
done the basic skills. We can shorten up how much time
we spend on MCSS and we can spend more time on real world

(01:01:11):
functional stuff, right? No more parking lot fires,
right? Actually going to building
fires. So yeah, those are the two
things I would do require more search coming into it or more
education and then more physicalfitness.
Man, back when when we come our time frame when we got hired, we
almost had a degree in fire science before we got hired
because it would take us 2345 years of testing our butts off

(01:01:34):
everywhere to get a job. And nowadays you barely have
your EMT. You test once, maybe twice,
boom, you get a job. So completely different culture
coming into this. So what's your opinion then
since you just said you wish that there was a more physical
aspect of the hiring process andthen obviously starts prior to

(01:01:56):
and everything else. So you just, and I agree with
you, we should require all that stuff.
But again, for the candidate requires their commitment, their
time. We all know we're we're all
facing the same recruitment issues right now.
So with that said, you're, you're going to lower your
numbers even more than what you're getting right now.
What do you feel about that? I think you'd lower the numbers
but raise the quality. OK, so it's, it's OK, like, and

(01:02:18):
I, I agree with you because the city I work for, the Fire Chief
can say, Hey, I want a list of 15.
But the cadre members that run our combine, if they only get
12, they give him a list of 12 and he supports them and says,
OK, because they say these are the only ones that we're willing
to make firemen for our city. And he goes, OK, we'll do

(01:02:38):
another process, whatever later to get the additional bodies.
So I like the fact that they hold that standard.
But again, it's something that Ithink we're all facing across
the nation right now is the lackof people that want to do this
job. So we have to be more picky.
But, and I agree with you, we should never lower our standards
or make it easier to get in the Academy because you've

(01:03:01):
experienced it now. It's now harder for you right as
a recruit training officer to get this person up to speed
compared to the one that went through.
All this stuff is dialed ready to rock'n'roll already has fire
one and two went through a combine and literally is just
trying to learn as much as they can.
Yeah. And then ultimately it puts so
much more strain on us as a company officer because now I

(01:03:22):
almost have to babysit a brand new guy if I don't know him.
I, I can't trust him until I seehim in action.
Right. And the things that I see
sometimes are like, holy crap, like you're going to kill
yourself if you go out on your own.
So yeah, I, I think it just, it's not a good system right
now, but I get it. We're we're facing things that
challenges that we've never had before, right?

(01:03:44):
Recruitment is down, but opportunities are up big time.
The needs are there, cities are expanding.
We got to fill the gaps. So I don't know.
I don't have AI, don't have exactly the answers for that.
I think, I think it would also lower that fear of the lawsuits,
I think too inside the Academy because these people, these

(01:04:04):
candidates, these recruits have been successful now put so much
time and effort into it that they're they're gonna be
successful in the Academy, right?
And since you bring that up, I'mcurious of the lawsuits that
have come out of some academies or of probationary people.
I wonder how much time they spent in the fire station,
excuse me, before they got hired.

(01:04:26):
Like, do they really understand what they're getting into?
Do they understand the culture? Do they know what the job's
about? My guess would be no.
Yeah. And I'm so I'm curious, maybe
they're the brand new guys are spent very little time got into
it and now it's a shelter shock and they're going, Oh my God,
what is this? And now their feelings are hurt
and then they all they know is, well, I'm just going to go sue
and make some money, make an easy buck and then bounce, you

(01:04:46):
know? It's, it's just a wholehearted,
it is a, it's not a generationalthing.
I'm trying to stop saying that, right.
It is a individual thing when itcomes down to and I believe it's
exactly what you're saying. We're not making it difficult
enough to get to the Academy. And then we're running into the
issues where we're having recruits that are those kind of

(01:05:08):
members where they've always been successful their entire
life because they've been walkedthrough everything, you know, So
now all of a sudden they're on their own for the first time,
anywhere between 18 to 25 years old, right?
And they're doing it all on their own, on their own accord,
without their folks or grandparents or whatever the
case might be, or someone holding their hand.
And then when they're not successful for the very first

(01:05:29):
time, it's all of a sudden everyeveryone else's fault as they've
always been successful because and again, the way that society
is or how parents are today's day and age are a parent.
I'm a parent, right? But it is we're not.
We we're a lot easier on the generation or the public now
because again, across the nation, everyone's feelings

(01:05:52):
matter. They don't.
Again, my opinion, right? I think we've we've lost that
lottery ticket concept, right? Yeah.
We had to earn it. We had to get out, we had to
ride, we had to volunteer, we had to take classes.
We had to educate ourselves. We had to do a lot of work for,
again, that two to five year period typically, sometimes
longer for some people. And now they don't have to do

(01:06:15):
the grind to get a job. It's too easy.
So they don't necessarily appreciate it for what it is.
There you go. And especially for a career that
you're talking to do minimum 25 years in our system from from
day one when you get hired, that's what you're required to
work now. So I mean, that's, that's a lot
to ask for somebody to commit toa department right without

(01:06:37):
getting that buy in prior. I I think so.
Oh, let's say we've been we've been yapping for over an hour
here. So I want to kind of start
winding down to get to the questions, but I really want to
ask you this. So for the people listening,
especially the guys that are either in their infancy on the
job and maybe looking at going to a different department or a

(01:06:57):
larger department or somebody trying to get hired right now.
What your opinion again? What would be your keys to
success right after they get that offer to be successful
through a American Fire Academy right right now, what would your
keys to success be? So once somebody gets the offer.
Yeah, so they get the offer there in the Academy.

(01:07:17):
What would you tell them before they go in on day one?
Hey, this is a, this is my opinion.
These are your keys to success. Follow these and you'll probably
be good. For anybody who's about to go in
the Academy, you got to get as soon as you get gear and even
before you got to start getting in shape.
A lot of shoulders, a lot of legs, a lot of cardio, super

(01:07:38):
sets, if you're in the gym, justconstant reps, high reps.
And I think you got to get out to those stations.
You got to do some ride alongs. You got to learn your your
department. You got to learn the people.
You got to learn the equipment that you have.
And if you have the opportunity to do skills courses, again,
using the equipment that's at the stations or stuff that you
might have around the house or even going on a ride and doing

(01:07:59):
skills courses with the guys, just start kind of inserting
yourself into that department. I think that would be awesome
before you come here and start. What about the mental aspect of
it? What would you tell them
mentally to prepare them to helpthem be successful?
Maybe a mindset or legality? I'm in positive man.
Like, yeah, composure. I'll say that.

(01:08:20):
That's one thing that I see a lot.
Guys do a skills course, they'retired, they want to lay down.
They do what I pick on CrossFit.You want to be a Crossfitter, go
do a CrossFit. But we're not going to do that
shit here where you finish your workout, you drop on the ground,
you sweat all over the floor andyou're huffing and puffing and
you look like you're dying, right?
If you do that on a fire ground,you come out after a bottle and
you drop your bottles or bangingeverywhere on the floor, You're

(01:08:41):
you're stripping your gear off and you're laying on the ground.
Do you think the chief's going to want to put you in for
another cycle? Hell no.
They're going to send you packing, send you home, right?
You don't want to be that guy. So guess what?
Everybody here is tired. Everyone's done the same bit of
work that you just did. Look around you.
If you're the only one that looks like crap, maybe you just
need to suck it up, buttercup. You know, like have a pair.

(01:09:02):
You need to smile, get into thathappy mindset somewhere in your
head, and embrace the suck. This job is not necessarily
easy. It's not fun at times.
It's dirty, gruelling, exhausting stuff, especially
when you get into the salvage and overhaul and you're lifting
and moving. Yeah, it's going to suck.

(01:09:23):
But guess what? We're all doing it together.
We're all in that trench together.
So embrace it, have fun, smile, enjoy what you're doing, take
pride in what you're doing, and know that for somebody out
there, it's going to matter. And I would understand, help
them understand that no matter what, people are watching you on
and off duty all the time. The fire service is very small.

(01:09:45):
So firemen are going to see you and all your neighbors are going
to see you coming and going. They're going to know what you
do. And remember that Maltese that
you wear is borrowed. It's not yours to keep.
It's yours to borrow and make itbetter and pass it on to the
next person. And never forget the moment that
you're in right now. Don't forget where you come

(01:10:05):
from, being nervous, being scared, not knowing really what
to do, and kind of embrace that and keep that in the back of
your head for the rest of your career, right?
It's an honor and a privilege tobe here and it will always be
that way because there's really no job or career out there that
is better than this, right? No one else is going to throw
their babies at you and trust you to take care of them.

(01:10:26):
No, it's true honor. And I want to resonate that
again because it's a good way toto end this, this episode.
It is a honor, right? What else did you say?
And a privilege and a privilege.Yeah, it's honor and a privilege
to do this fucking job, right? The public trust us.
No one else is coming, right? It is us.
It is like guys like joke all the time or whatever, you know,

(01:10:47):
like the cliches like, oh, we'recoming or you know, no one's
coming for you. But it's fucking true, right?
The buck stops at us because when everyone else fails, even
in no shade on our PD brothers, right?
But when they don't know what todo, who do they call, right?
We don't have. And actually we do, right?
You're on the team. I'm on the team too.

(01:11:08):
The only other 911 the fire department department has is
technical rescue, right? And, but outside of the actual
OPS, right, special OPS, that's it.
But we are, we have to figure itout.
And no matter what it is, the public expects us to figure it
out in a timely, safe and effective manner, right?
Yeah. And you mentioned anyone else
may be looking to change departments.
I would encourage those that maybe work for a department you

(01:11:31):
don't want to be with, whether it's because it's smaller,
there's not really opportunity, there's not growth.
Maybe you don't like it, or maybe you just really have
wanted to be somewhere else fromthe get go.
Do it. Yeah.
Guys are going to talk crap and maybe they're going to harass
you. They're going to talk poorly of
you from your own department. They're going to think that
you're a traitor, whatever. Who cares?
They're not the ones paying yourbills.
They're not the ones taking careof your family.

(01:11:51):
They're not the ones that are making your your mindset happy
right in life. So you got to do what's best for
you, your family and your career.
If you're chasing opportunity, go to a growing department.
If you need more financial stability, go to a department
that's more stable, that has better wages, has better

(01:12:13):
benefits. If you want to go somewhere
because you have family or friends there, go it.
Whatever makes you happy, go forit.
Because no one else is there running your career.
You are. And in a few years, they're
going to totally forget about itand move on anyway, right?
Yeah, in, in, in all reality, wedon't.
If you're miserable, we don't want you.
I know like, like you said, likewhere what?
What department makes you happy?Because the department you want

(01:12:34):
to work for and the department Iwant to work for are different
for different reasons, right. But are we working at the
correct departments for the correct reasons?
That's all. All should be.
Yeah, and if if people are goingto give you hell for wanting to
better your life, then you know what?
Screw them. They're not really one of your
friends, one of your brothers anyway.
I would disregard those people. They shouldn't matter in my
opinion. No, it's, it's and someone says

(01:12:56):
it. It's like if you're not willing
to take advice from them, you shouldn't listen to the
criticism, you know? So yeah.
You need to be in an environmentthat's supportive, right?
Yeah. Like some departments, man,
they're so selfish, especially in the testing world.
It's like if you're testing withanybody else, you're out.
It's either all US or nobody, right?
You're the in or out. Whereas like with our cadets, we

(01:13:16):
preach to them like we, you better be tested everywhere,
right? We want you to get hired.
We want you to get a job. Yes, we want to hire the best of
you. But if we can get you hired in
another department out here in the Valley, that's another
friend that we can always reach out to maybe years down the
road, right? Because the fire service is one
giant network, right? The more people we have in our
network, the better. Especially the good dudes, you

(01:13:38):
know, the more good dudes we have, it doesn't matter what
department you work for. If you're a fireman, you're
fireman, right? Your brother.
Your brother. It's about this work service,
not just that one department, correct?
Yeah, exactly. Well, good shit, dude.
Is there anything before we get to the questions of Season 1,
anything that we didn't talk about that you want to hit on?
No, I would say if you have for company officers, if you have

(01:13:59):
the opportunity to go to an Academy, I would say go,
especially if you haven't reallybeen in a teaching role prior
to. I think it'd be an awesome
experience. It's definitely going to
rejuvenate you. I think to see all these young
guys coming in that are full of energy and excited and it it
gives you an opportunity to share the knowledge that you
have. Again, this knowledge is not

(01:14:20):
ours to keep. It's ours to share.
And I think by teaching you alsoreinforce all the skills that
you have, teaching the best way to learn, I think.
We, yeah, we, we say it all the time.
And I'm glad, I'm glad we're ending with that because I, I
feel the same way. I have never had such a grip.

(01:14:43):
I've had a great career so far. So same amount of time on the
job as you have. And this is probably, I'm
probably living my best days nowbeing a recruit training officer
for the last Academy and then for the next one.
This has been a career goal fromthe day I became a fireman.
I'm like, I always want to get back in my, I want to make it as
a recruit training officer one day.
Like that was that was always onmy bucket list and we talked

(01:15:04):
about the grind, the schedule and everything.
Like with all that said, I woulddo it for the rest of my career.
If I had the opportunity. I would never leave the Academy
because of the opportunities, like you said, to give back to
the next generation, to see those kids progress.
And then more importantly, to see someone that didn't know how
to do the job and then they're graduating.
We're pinning them and they're and we feel comfortable that

(01:15:25):
they're going to do a good job at that eight O 5:00 AM on that
freaking good job that they get with whoever they got hired by,
you know? Yeah, and shout out to 24 Three
men because it was questionable at times if they were going to
get some tasks. But it seemed like maybe the
last two weeks of the Academy, everybody seemed to finally
click. Like everybody got it.
Like we weren't really yelling at them about certain tasks.

(01:15:48):
They were able to accomplish what we gave them, and it was
really, really rewarding to see it all finally come together at
the very end. And so I felt extremely
confident and proud to send all of them off, you know?
Yeah, and I, I felt the same waywith all the all the cities that
were involved. I felt comfortable with every
single one of them. And I'm like there, I felt
really good at the end going that they're going to do a good

(01:16:10):
job when they get out into the field and they're going to have
a great probationary year and, you know, be hopefully studs in
10-15 years from now and maybe back here at the Academy doing
exactly what we're doing right now for these guys.
So good. All right, so questions for
Season 1. So the why is what we always
start with. So the why.
We asked the why when we get into the fire service.

(01:16:30):
We talked about that. We asked the why when we're
trying to become a recruit training officer.
So the why, but this is a why for Dan Malinowski.
Why did you decide to become a fireman?
Did you get bit by the bug? Like what?
What is your story? Why'd you pick this career?
So deep down, personal thought to the core is more of a

(01:16:51):
religious one, right? But way back when someone was
willing to die for me and lay their life out there, why would
I not be willing to do the same for my neighbor or my brother?
There you go. And again, not trying to beat it
on the head or anything, but I'm, I'm Christian and basically
it's told to live your life to be Christ like, right?

(01:17:14):
So I want to do that for my fellow man.
So in, in high school when I wastrying to figure out what I
wanted to do is pretty much either military or fire, right?
What kind of acts of service canI do in my life to live a
meaningful, purposeful life? So I started looking for it.
Well, early on in high school, Iwas a lifeguard.
We had a lot of interactions with the fire department there

(01:17:36):
with Phoenix Fire. They would respond to certain
things that we had. And then my dad was a
firefighter in the Air Force wayback when.
He actually got out to get hiredby Phoenix, got the call, but
just prior to, he ended up breaking his back, so he wasn't
able to go forward with it. So he always kind of talked
about it, you know, and I'm pretty sure he had a lot and
kind of pushing me in that direction, of course.

(01:17:58):
But I'm glad it all worked out because, yeah, this is
definitely the route I took early on.
And it's all I've known as an adult.
I literally grew up as a fireman.
And so no shade on any of those young guys.
I tell people all the time that are coming right out of high
school, still living at home, like, yeah, I was you.
I get it. Like, it's scary.
It's a big world. You don't know anything going

(01:18:20):
on. Like I didn't operate a lot of
power tools when I was younger. I learned that here, I learned
how to cook here. I learned how to do all sorts of
odds and ends and things throughthe fire service.
So it's definitely possible for those young guys to move on.
But yeah, that that's how I got into the fire service.
I I believe it's a true calling and it's the best job where you

(01:18:40):
can help in so many ways, right?Like everyone in interview says,
I want to help people, right. OK, well, what does that mean?
Right? Like it's I want to do whatever
somebody needs of me. It makes me fulfilled and feel
happy to service somebody else right now.
You can throw some adrenaline into that by fighting fire and
doing rescues and doing all thiscool shit that we do.

(01:19:02):
The hell yeah. Sign me up, right?
If I can help and have fun, yeahthat's what I want to do.
Nice, nice. It.
I mean it, it sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it
sounds like with answering that question, like you basically
became you became a man while you're in the fire service.
Like you learn how to be a man, probably probably helped you
become a good father too. You know, like you said, you
literally learn how to cook and everything in in the fire

(01:19:24):
service. So that's again another how much
different we are as a collectivegroup than any other profession
out there. I just, I wholeheartedly believe
the military's probably the closest, but again.
They seem to be the military hasa lot of different things, but
they're more specific task oriented, right?
Especially on depending on what their job is, whereas our job is

(01:19:47):
everything. And as one of my mentors always
said, the fire firefighters are Jack of all trades, master of
none. So we have to be good at so many
different things so that we can respond to any call and help Mr.
and Misses Smith with whatever problem they have.
We may not be the absolute best or the masters of it may not be

(01:20:08):
our speciality, but collectively, between the four
people on our crew or between all the units on scene, we will
figure out a way to solve your problem.
And I think that's so unique andso awesome.
For what we do. Yeah.
And and I agree with you, it's, it's like you said, no matter
what happens, we we do not leaveuntil we solve the problem.
It doesn't it will continue to call resources if it's a

(01:20:30):
resource issue or subject matterexperts or whatever or spec op
teams, whatever the case might be.
But we, we are there until we'regoing to solve their issue.
I mean our job is customer service.
You said it 8000 different ways,you know, so I love it.
So to piggyback on top of that, then so always wanted to serve.
So then The Who, let's go into your fireman, right?

(01:20:54):
You've been in the American fireservice now for 18 years.
So that's a long time. Doesn't have to be a fireman,
doesn't have to be related to the fire service.
But so far, as of today, who hasbeen the most influential person
in your fire service career? So again, because of how many
hats we wear, it's impossible tosay one person, right?
So there's numerous here. So forgive me, but I would say

(01:21:14):
Chief Rand, he's retired now from our department and although
his reputation might be a littleconfrontational in some aspects,
but I think he was what I alwayslooked at as a fireman's
fireman. He seemed to have knowledge and
expertise in everything, whetherit was TRT, hazmat,
firefighting, every aspect of what we do in the fire service.

(01:21:37):
He seemed to know what it was. So I really looked up to that.
And then he was a big part in the one and two and I initially
started, I went through it when I started teaching it.
I was a mentor under his leadership and his concept and
training was always, yeah, we can be as smart as the book, but
when shit hits the fan, where's the book going?
It's going right out the window.And now you got to get down and

(01:21:59):
get dirty and go to work, right?So his whole mindset was about
functional training, not so muchabout the MCS type training, you
know? And I've always loved that.
I've hung on to that, whether it's on the fireside, the
medical side, whatever I've taught, let's be hands on.
Let's be real. I don't care what your cert
says. I don't care that you passed the

(01:22:20):
class. I care what you're going to do
with it. What are you going to do when
you're out in the field, when you have nobody there to help
you, nobody to guide you or instruct you?
It's up to you. What are you?
What are you going to do about it?
Right. So, yeah, that was it.
And then as I mentioned before, Mike Patton on the medics side.
Man, I, I learned so much from him.
I still do. And a lot of those in especially

(01:22:43):
the older days when I first started teaching, all the
instructors there at the collegewere awesome.
Dude. I, I would always sit in on
their classes while we're waiting for them to start the
labs. And I would just listen, watch,
observe. And I think I gathered a little
bit of something from all of them, but specifically Mike
Patton on our own department. I would say Captain Gilliam.

(01:23:04):
He's at one of our ladder captains.
He's like the original guy in the department.
He, he probably hands down for sure put the most investment
into me as I was testing for captain.
He spent most of the time like really white board type stuff,
conversations, tactics, all thatstuff.
So huge shout out and huge appreciation for that.

(01:23:26):
Then I, I really learned from him about investing into your
people. So no matter what it is like,
yeah, I will help you. And again, as as an instructor
and all the classes I've taught,I always tell people I will do
whatever it takes and I will bend over backwards for you is
as long as you put in the effort, right?
And I got Chief Reese, I've really grown up listening to him

(01:23:48):
from Tempe and he's done so manylectures about integrity and how
to conduct yourself. And I just think he is a very
honest, true person with a lot of integrity, right?
So I've always looked up to that.
And then Chief Scheipel, I worked under him as a captain.

(01:24:09):
And one thing that really stuck with me, when we come on shift,
shift wars always start because you always start bitching about
the shift before, oh, a shift into this B shift into that,
blah, blah, right? Or his concept was, I don't care
what the problem is, we're on shift now.
Now it's our problem. Now we got to fix it, right?
Doesn't matter, Just take care of it.
And I think I've used that work ethic ever since, right?

(01:24:31):
And then of course, I got a shout out to my dad because he's
the hardest working man I've ever known in my life.
His work ethic is, is crazy, insane.
I mean, he's the guy even at graduation, he came to check it
out here at family night. And afterwards he was folding
all the chairs. Like he's just a spectator.
He doesn't have to clean up our Academy and full chairs and

(01:24:52):
stuff. But that's just the guy he is
right. So again, just wanting to help
people, that's what makes us tick, you know?
And I definitely got that from him.
And and it kind of seems like, Imean subconsciously,
consciously, whatever the case might be that you even said it,
he probably pushed you into towards the direction that you
are right now, you know, with orwithout saying it.

(01:25:13):
Awesome, because that's something that obviously was his
career goal too, right. All right, so favorite fire
department tradition, but more importantly, why?
Dinner time, family dinner. Yeah.
I really look forward to that, where you still have that
traditional style where everybody sits together,
everybody's just hanging out, talking, getting to know each

(01:25:34):
other. Especially when you're done
eating and you just kicking back, chilling, right?
I feel like that's my time. I'm always on the go, go, go,
go, go, right? I have bajillion things I got to
get done, tons of projects. But at least that moment right
there, try to be intentional about keeping the phone down and
just engaging in the moment, engaging with your people, get
to know their personal lives a little bit more right as
individuals. Yeah, that's always been my

(01:25:56):
favorite time. So it's the it's that family
aspect of it and then that kind of slowing down just enjoying
enjoying the the boys basically.Absolutely, I love it.
All right, last question. This is my favorite.
All right, so snap your fingers,right, No sweat equity.
Something changes right now, right?
It can be whatever you want it to be, positive, negative,

(01:26:16):
whatever it is. So if you could snap your
fingers that one wish affects the American Fire Service, what
would it be? What would you change?
I would change quote what I callthe game right the the game that
recruits or people have to play to get hired in the game that is
played with probationary. People so explain the game on
what you don't like or like or right.

(01:26:38):
Now, I appreciate and I understand the concept of
earning your stripes and kind ofplaying that booter role, being
the 1st to get up, the 1st to godown, the first one on the
truck. You're the one that's kind of
doing a little bit more than everybody else, or you're the
1st to jump to it. But I hate the negative side of
it where people like you can never do anything right.

(01:26:59):
Everyone's down on you, Everyone's nitpicking every
little thing about you. Like what I tell all my booters
is I don't care about the dust Bunny in the corner of the room.
I care that you know how to become a fireman.
I know how I want you to be ableto do your job when we need you
to do it right. If if the next shift wants to
bitch because you forgot a trashcan, I don't care because guess

(01:27:19):
what? You work for me right now.
You're not working for them. I need you to know your job.
So I'd rather you go out and train, work out, do all these
things, and then if there's time, let's go do that.
I hate how because you're a booter, you're not allowed to go
sit down. You're not allowed to relax.
You're not allowed to take a nap.
Screw that man. You're doing more work than all
of us and we're all going to go take a nap because we're dog ass
tired. Especially day 2 after being up

(01:27:41):
all night on our 48 schedule. Yeah, go take a freaking nap.
Go do some study time or whatever it takes, man.
Like you got to relax too because I need to depend on you
throughout the rest of the shiftif if we need you.
Like I had one captain in my early days, we would have
reserves come out or a booter come out and we would all sit

(01:28:03):
down after lunch and watch a movie and usually take a nap and
recliner. And the new guy would always be
cleaning stuff. And that captain would tell him
like, hey man, come sit down, come hang out with us, watch a
movie. And of course they'd play the
game. They go, no, I don't want to be
like, no, listen man, sit your ass down or pack your shit and
go home. Because we can break bread
together, we can run calls together, We could potentially
die together. But you're telling me we can't

(01:28:23):
watch a freaking movie together?Come on.
No way. Come on, dude.
And again, that's how you kind of build that camaraderie and
you build that trust within eachother.
So take a freaking moment just to hang out with us, right?
That's the stuff that I would I like to see more of in the
hypocrisy. Like, for example, you go to a
station and if that new guy drops an F bomb, everyone's

(01:28:45):
like, Oh my God, who are you andwhy are you talking that way?
Yeah, but we'll drop 50 of them just before that, right?
Like, come on, dude, I don't know.
And I, I don't like how we expect them to do all the work
all the time by themselves. Again, I'm more of on the lines
of I want to lead by example. So I want to be out there doing

(01:29:06):
stuff with them, whether it's training or it's cleaning, I
don't care. But let's do it as a crew, let's
do it together. We're all getting paid.
This is all of our jobs. It's not just your job.
Again, I think there should be amindset where they do just a
little bit more or they're the 1st to get to it right, just to
earn their spot. But I think we need to have a

(01:29:27):
better happy medium there. Well.
I had a had a captain and I likeI like what he would say all the
time, especially the booters or or guys that were super fresh
off probation. They're still in that booter
role or that mentality. But he would say being the best
janitor in the department doesn't mean anything to me.

(01:29:48):
He's like, I need you to be the best fireman department right
now. And it obviously there's a line,
right? I agree with you.
There's a lot of the game that Idon't like there.
There is tradition to it and there is stuff that I believe
that we should hold on to that probe and booter roll.
But again, like you said, expecting them to do everything.
No, like even when it comes downto like dinner time, I will make

(01:30:08):
them like they're trying to eat last.
I'm like, I swear to God, I am starving and I am not going to
eat until you make your plate. Like that's why I'll tell them
and it forces them to make theirplate because I say the same
thing that you just said. I'm like, you're literally the
hardest working dude here. Like you need to eat right?
And then it's like 9:00 at night.
I'm like, and they're doing something, I'm like go to bed
and they're like, look at me. I'm like, go to fucking bed,

(01:30:29):
right? Like you've been non-stop all
freaking day. We're going to get a shit ton of
calls. You need to go to bed right now
to try to get a little bit of sleep, you know, and it's it it
it's just that that outlook on it.
But again, you know, it's I agree with you, like throwing
shade on our brand new guys to that extreme measure.
It's like, what are we showing? We preach to them.
You just joined a family, right?But then we show them their

(01:30:50):
first year that it's a well, it's a dysfunctional family,
which I like, but that's OK. But then we show them that we we
fuck in they're our step kids and we hate them, right?
And they have to earn our love. And then once they earn our
love, then we love them. But or whatever, but like why?
Why like? The whole idea of you have to
earn respect to get respect I think is so ass backwards.

(01:31:12):
I should always show you upfrontrespect as a human, as a person,
right? And in return I expect you to
show me respect as well. And then if we have that mutual
give and take, then the world will be a better place, right?
I also hate when we have like that brand new guy that comes on
as a very first ride along, has no instruction beforehand.
He just wants to be a fireman, No family, no friends, and God

(01:31:35):
forbid he shows up in just regular street clothes.
He doesn't really look the part.Maybe his hair is a little
moppy, He didn't shave, whatever.
Instead of talking shit and justdiscrediting him from the very
beginning, did anybody talk to him?
Did anybody try to mentor him? To think, hey, bro, so you want
to do this, right? All right, let's sit down.
Let's talk like these are some expectations that I just want to
help you with now before you burn yourself later, right?

(01:31:57):
I don't think we do enough of that.
We're so quick to judge and cashaid and write people off and
like we just got to give him a chance.
Dude, I've seen so many people come through where like there's
one particular person I'm thinking of right now.
I'm 100% discredited. This person from the get go, it
looked like you had a literally a floor mop on his head for

(01:32:19):
hair. He like I offered him to stay
and hang out with us longer and he's like, well, I'll go because
it was a slow day. He was bored and he's like, all
right, fine. You want to leave whatever.
I guess you don't want to be here, right?
Well, he came in to interview for one of the cadets and I even
told the board ahead of time like, oh, this guy's gonna be a
waste of your time. I'm.
Sorry, not worth it. Yeah, but we'll entertain it.
Whatever, dude. He came in clean shaven, dress

(01:32:40):
the part very well, and I'm going, holy crap, who is this?
Yeah. And then Fast forward two years,
almost to the day he actually got hired, and now he's a
fireman, right? Like, holy crap.
That's what I tell him all the time.
You were my most improved candidate ever, Right?
And if you can do it, and I say this jokingly because I love
him, but if you can do it, anybody can do it.

(01:33:00):
And I'm not going to discredit anybody buddy upfront like I I
did to you and I even told him that I'm sorry I had the wrong
impression, my bad. And thank you for proving me
wrong, because you stuck throughit, you grinded and now you earn
the spot, you know? Right.
And you're probably, you're probably friends now, right?
Oh yeah, 100% yeah, totally. Yeah, that's a freaking fire
service for yellow. Love it man.
And the other thing I wish I could change is just involvement

(01:33:23):
from the members, right? There's this weird concept of
why I put in all my effort to get hired.
And once I got hired, now I got mine.
And I think every union out there can attest to this, that
like maybe 10% or less of your members actually show up and
participate, right? So now you're putting all this
work on the backs of a few people that will benefit the

(01:33:45):
whole department. Well, if everybody would just do
a little bit more, maybe those guys don't have to break their
back so much. Maybe they can spend more time
with their families and not be doing all the work for everyone
else to benefit from it, right? And that's, I mean that that
goes outside of the union also, that just goes for anything the

(01:34:05):
department does when we give back because I personal
experience, like the department I work for, like you, if you're
around long enough, you end up seeing that it's like the same
15 dudes that do. Every committee members, yeah,
same training people and. It's there's no favoritism.
It's just the same guys that arewilling to give back over and
over and over again. And that's the shitty thing is,

(01:34:26):
is eventually, and I've seen it too, where the guys do it so
much and they spread themselves so, so thin to the point where
they end up hating the fucking job, right?
Or they leave or they're so jaded that they drop out of
everything, right? And then it's just, and it's
because, and again, my opinion, I feel like what we do is these
kids get out of the Academy, they're doing their booter year.

(01:34:49):
And then we freaking because we tell them say yes more than you
say no, which I I agree with, but I, I give them a caveat and
say, don't be afraid to say no, right?
Because you still need to honor your family and your friends and
everything else outside of this profession.
But what we do is, and this is just my personal experience is
these kids come out of the Academy and they end up on a
group text and they're expected to do everything right over and

(01:35:13):
over and over again. By the time they're done,
they're just freaking spent and they don't want to do anything
anymore. I don't blame them.
And then, but it's OK because then the next Academy comes out
and they abuse them and then they abuse the next group,
right? And we, it's, it's, it's a
broken system. I just don't have the answers
how to fix to get more guys involved.
I just don't know. Well, that goes back to that
booter concept too, of I've heard guys literally say, well,

(01:35:35):
I was treated like shit on my booter ears.
I'm going to treat the new guy like shit because what I got,
they got to get, right. OK, When's the cycle going to
break, man? And how many people, especially
even on this podcast and all around have started talking
about mental health, right? How many of us know or have been
affected by somebody who either tried or did successfully kill
themselves, right? When is that shit going to stop?

(01:35:55):
I think as firefighters in the fire service, we are really good
at coming together during tragedies, right?
We are awesome and we're such a tight family when bad things
happen. Well, maybe we can prevent the
bad things from happening in the1st place if we didn't treat
everybody like garbage all through probation and through
the rest of their careers, right?
Like, why don't we start treating people like family

(01:36:16):
sooner and doing things togetheras family members?
Do we all carry our own weight and maybe we can start
preventing a lot of that shit down the road.
Hell yeah, Hell yeah. All right, brother, we'll listen
that, that that wraps up our episode, dude.
And it was freaking I I really appreciate your time coming
down, sitting down, talking about the RTI.
I know you have very limited time because you're you're

(01:36:37):
getting ready to start another class, right?
So I know you have a huge pecking order.
I'm yeah, I'm, I'm excited. I'm going to be in that with
you. So it's it's, it's going to be a
blast. Is there anything you want to
leave the audience with before we sign off?
No, I just want to say thank youagain for having me out here.
I really appreciate that you'd bring me on to your podcast.
As I told you when you guys first started this, I was so
happy to see a group of people with, with the fools program,

(01:37:01):
Copper State. Just it's awesome to see that
there are still firemen out there that still love the job
and still want to learn and train.
And I've seen so many different department members come to these
meetings that you guys had, and it's very inspirational, you
know. And as you said, in some cases
too, if you really want to grow,you have to leave your own

(01:37:21):
department. You won't.
Your department only knows what they know because we run kind of
the same type of calls, the sametype of construction, whatever.
But when you start getting out there, there's a whole new
world. And if you can bring any of that
back to your department, make itbetter.
I mean, by all means do it. So, yeah.
And, and in the intro, part of the things that I wanted to

(01:37:44):
highlight was just working with the original guys.
I'm a few years off from that first group that started my
department, but I've worked withthem for many.
When did your department start 2?
Thousand 2001 OK so you became afull time town right I got them
and then. Prior to that, you said it was
the reserves? Right.
It was like volunteer with Buckeye Valley Buckeye.
They were one thing, then they split, then it was town of

(01:38:06):
Buckeye and we had a lot of reserves.
We actually had a lot of captains from other departments
that would come work as reservesfor us, and that's where, like
my mentors, my senior guys learned from those reserve
captains that had tons of experience from Sun City,
Phoenix, everywhere. Else you basically have guys
that have single digit badge numbers that you've worked for.

(01:38:29):
That's pretty crazy. A lot of guys don't get that
experience, yeah. I mean, I'm 78, which is still
only double digits and like, I believe Captain Gillum's number
one. Wow.
So yeah, it it's been great to learn from those guys secondhand
what they learned from the captains before them.
I think our department was very,very young, still is.

(01:38:51):
But when I started, everybody was young.
They were super into physical fitness, super into training.
Everybody was laying canvas, just train, train, train all the
time, right? So I got a great opportunity to
be a part of that group. And then growing through all the
experiences that we had, the growing pains, whatever has been
quite a journey, but it's been worth it because now we're

(01:39:12):
reaping the benefits of everything that we've done.
And again, that's part of like I, I wish there was more
involvement of these newer guys,'cause like you guys only have a
job because of what those guys and what we did in this
department to grow and to expandand make sure that you got a
job. So you kind of owe it to the
department in the city to give back, right?

(01:39:35):
So. 'Cause if not, that wouldn't
have even been an option. You guys would still be reserves
or whatever the. Case and we're like one
generation away from having all of our shit ripped away from us,
right benefits or pay or whatever right.
So you have to constantly stay on top of it if you want to keep
the stuff that we're given and if you want to make it better is
the only way to make it better is to get involved.
There you go. I love it.

(01:39:56):
But yeah, thank you so much for having me here.
I appreciate it and thanks for anybody who actually sat around
and listened to it. No, no, good, good, good stuff,
dude. I, like I said, I again, I
appreciate your time. I know you're a busy man, but
thank you so much. And again, like if you guys take
anything away from what Danny's talking about, get back to your
departments, right? Be the guy that's approachable.
Be the guy that that junior member can come up to.

(01:40:19):
And then, but more importantly, when you get a little bit of
time on the job and you start finding your niche within the
fire department, capitalize on that, right, Become that subject
matter expert and then start giving back and teaching, right?
And then you would be amazed notonly on how much that benefits
your soul and how good it just makes you feel, but you become
such a better fireman all the way around, right?
And then again, shameless plug, right?

(01:40:40):
Danny Malinowski right here he is a copper state fools member.
We are here in the Valley, right?
But again, if you're not in the state of Arizona where the first
active fools or fools Infinity group in the state, but again,
no matter where you're listeningto, there's a full, I guarantee
there's a fools near you or multiple companies reach out to
them like minded individuals. It's a wealth of knowledge.

(01:41:02):
And again, like what Danny's saying is just the firemanship
learning from each other. And again, we cannot be on every
single call. The good ones want to be.
But what's the next best thing? Be able to sit down with that
guy and learn from their experiences and their call.
That way when you do get it one day, you don't repeat their
mistakes. You look like a stud and then
you can teach from there on down.
So thank you again, brother. And we will catch you guys in

(01:41:24):
two more weeks. Have a good one.
Thanks for joining us. Always remember, the most
important grab you'll make in your fire service career is
saving a complacent firefighter from themselves.
Catch you next episode.