Forcible Entry with Heavy Rescue Officer Dave Colson

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
We have to learn that that's OK,especially in the training
scenario, the training thing, that's where we want, we want to
get destroyed out there. We want to make all the errors
and the mistakes and the, the failures out there and, and
those are opportunities for us to learn and get better.
And that's what it has to be thefocus on is when we're out on
the training ground, we need to fail.
We need to fail miserably sometimes because that's that

(00:20):
time to stop, back, reflect, getsome input from others that are
seeing things that you're not noticing are doing.
Welcome everybody. Copper State Fireman Podcast.
It's podcasters for firemen burning the ships of
complacency, laziness and excuses.
We're promoting love and passionfor the job, encouraging

(00:43):
eagerness and mastering the craft of the fire service.
Remember, the information, opinion, values, recommendation
and ideas are the host and the individuals of this podcast and
are not affiliated or endorsed by the fire department's
organization or companies the individuals work for.

(01:04):
This podcast is for general information use only.
Brought to you by the Copper State Fools and sponsored by
Solid Foundation Team LLC Let's go Copper State Fireman podcast
season 1 episode 2. Today we have the honor to sit
down with Dave Coulson, talk about forcible entry techniques,

(01:25):
culture, everything this man wants to talk about.
So Dave Coulson is a captain 21 years in the American fire
service. He's a paramedic, hazmat tech,
technical rescue. So all hazards firemen sitting
in front of me right now, instructor for Arizona Fire
School. He's been a recruit training
officer and a training captain. He's been part of the logistics
deputy chief for Super Bowl #49 Canine Search and rescue

(01:49):
handler, which is, which is crazy because that's not a very
common thing, especially out here.
It's been a mentor and instructor for Glendale
Community College Fire Academy, high school fire science program
instructor, been a program manager for the cadet program,
part of the wildland team and the honor guard.
So Dave's been, he's had his fingers and pretty much
everything so far. Career highlights Firefighter of

(02:10):
the Year for Chef Professional Service Award worked on a number
of promotional processes, internal and external, and the
hiring process. He's been a high school baseball
coach prior to the fire service.He was actually a bus driver,
which hopefully we talked about a little bit today.
And then he's super proud of having a strong family support
system. More importantly, his wife Amy
has stayed married to him for this whole entire crazy fire

(02:33):
service career. And the other thing Dave's super
passionate and proud about is crew members working underneath
him and him helping them to promote and advance in their
fire service career. Forcible entry unless I missed
anything brother. Oh that.
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to do this.
It's going to be fun. Cool, perfect.
So, so just tell us like forceful entry, man, we could

(02:55):
talk about it forever, right? And you are the guru.
Like I can't think of anybody else that knows more or is more
passionate about forcible entry.So talk to me.
So what do you what do you feel like right now is the most
important thing that we can start teaching guys about
forcible entry? Most important thing on forcible
entry, I mean #1 it's willingness to get out there and

(03:17):
try. I think that is the most
important thing. I, I believe we just, we don't
know what we don't know. And at no point did I come into
the fire service and know a lot of stuff about forcible entry.
I, I came in as everybody else was taught in the Academy and,

(03:38):
and just over time it somehow gravitate to that and started
doing a lot of research on a lotof reading, a lot of training on
it. And that's kind of just where it
all kind of starts with stuff. And and when it comes to what
the future holds for other guys and getting into forcible entry,
it's number one. Just be willing to go out and
try, be open minded, be learned stuff because we don't know what

(03:59):
we don't know. So that's always step one.
Just get out there and start trying things.
Listen to people. Yeah, I, I agree with you.
And that's huge in the fire service because we are always,
for some reason, and I don't know where they start, We're
we're embarrassed to fail in front of our friends sometimes.
And I, I don't, I don't quite get that.
Like if I'm going to fail, I'd rather fail in front of you than
and fail in front of, you know, Grandma Smirkins who's never met

(04:21):
me before, you know. So it's one of those things
where I'd rather fail in front of my boys and they can correct
me instead of failing in front of the public and then looking
like a an ass, I mean. We have a, we have a large fear
of just so you're saying fail infront of the guys that we work
with because we hold them, I think up into such a high
standard as well. And we want to also meet that
standard. We're all, we're all type A

(04:42):
people. We're, we're in this job for a
living. We, we want to be front center
doing our job and doing it well.So sometimes if things don't go
right, we have to learn that that's OK, especially in the
training scenario, the training thing, that's where we want, we
want to get destroyed out there.We want to make all the errors
and the mistakes and the the failures out there.
And, and those are opportunitiesfor us to learn and get better.

(05:04):
And that's what it has to be thefocus on is when we're out on
the training ground, we need to fail.
We need to fail miserably sometimes because that's that
time to stop back, reflect, get some input from others that are
seeing things that you're not noticing or doing.
And that's going to open us up to be successful when that that
next evolution or, or growing toit.

(05:24):
So when we have that day and it's that Super Bowl and we're
having, having that big fire that we need to get in there, we
need to go make a grab that we're on our game because we've,
we've been handed the worst things already and we failed on
those things. We've learned them.
Now it's game day. Now it's time to go in there and
do our job and do a great and, and look like the professionals
that we are because we're working our butts off to, to hit

(05:47):
that home run in the bottom of the ninth when when the game's
on the line. So that's what we're prepping
for every single day. Oh, yeah, that's a great
analogy, especially for the end of the sports guys out there.
Every everybody understands exactly what you mean by that.
So with that said, if I am sitting down in front of Dave
Coulson and you're teaching me forcible entry for the first
time, right? What what are your striking
points like? What are Talk to me about your

(06:07):
class. Talk to me about what what you
make sure that your students take away when they leave.
So kind of start ground up on it.
When I start with that, I, I start talking about #1 the
equipment we use, the tools we use.
We need to understand the tools that we are using and how to use
them in a way that makes it beneficial for us.

(06:28):
Not going to get into an in depth thing of about exactly
certain brands of tools, but there are very good ones and
there are ones that are make life a lot harder in in our
endeavors to be successful in whatever the evolution is that
we're we're about to come to. So understanding the tools,
understanding the finer points of it to make us successful.

(06:50):
If we, if we start harnessing that, how to increase mechanical
advantage, increase the force that we're putting in there,
understand when we need to move and change the plan that we're
going to or, or add into a second piece into that plan.
Those are all things that come from the baseline of just
understanding the equipment thatwe're working with.
After that. Now it's the communication

(07:12):
piece, the communication piece. I, I preach it all the time when
it comes to the fire service. I was just talking with the
recruits last week and we were talking about some search stuff
and it was very much I say, hey,everything in the fire service
comes down to successes and failures are based a lot on

(07:32):
communication. When we communicate well, things
go well. When we have horrible
communication, things go poorly.So when coming back to the
forstable entry world that is all about we have to speak the
same language. We have to understand when I'm
given commands that my partner'sunderstanding what those
commands mean. If we're working in two man
operations. So we have to speak the same

(07:53):
language and and be able to go back and forth with what we're
doing and what we're talking about all.
Right. So before we move on the
communication aspect, because obviously that is something
that's thoroughly important across our entire profession
education, right. So when you talk about forcible
entry, communication talk, So what are what are, what's the
same language? Talking about so when we talk
about the same language, first thing is our commands are hit,

(08:18):
drive, stop, wedge, little help and what I'm going to slow that
down and come back to him. When we talk about hit, if I'm
the guy, the guy on the Halligan, you are the one
calling the commands. You're understanding what's
going on with that door as best you can.
You're feeling the door and you're also the one who's going
to get hit if you have somebody who's not paying attention on

(08:38):
the other side. So you're making the calls.
So when we say hit, that means your partner is going to strike
that tool one time. And when we talk about one time,
it's because you're going to you're planning on having a lot
of manipulation in your in your tool that is not going to be in
that same target after it gets hit.
You're, you're working towards agoal and there's going to be a

(08:58):
lot of manipulation. So it has to be one strike and
then you that tool, that target is going to move around.
Now when we. So basically what you're, you're
saying, Dave, is so when you're when you're telling, if you're
running the show and you're on the Hal again, it's you and I,
right? And you tell me, hey, Steve hit,
right. So I'm hitting it once.
And then what are you doing withthat tool?
So you're basically saying that at that point you're

(09:19):
manipulating that tool? Yeah, we, we kind of skipped
over what our actual operations and our goals are.
We went straight into the communication piece.
So, but we'll bounce back into the goals.
The very simplest objectives when it comes to force military
is gap, set force. And we need to create that gap
when you set our tool and then we put the force to it.

(09:41):
So now jumping into that communication piece, we were
trying to create that gap. We're trying to create some sort
of opening that we can actually start to get some work done and
get our tool set into that door.And then we can actually put
some force into this thing because if we try and put a lot
of force and we don't have a tool in a good position, it's
coming out right back at us. We're we're not getting into

(10:02):
that building. We're going to have a tool
flying out of that whatever gap that we've made and we're going
to be starting all over from scratch.
So. So in between those hits, as the
Halligan firefighter, what are you looking at on that door?
Like is there, are you looking to expose that jam and see that
locking mechanism? Are you trying to see the the

(10:23):
material the doors could I mean like.
So we kind of talked the order of the class we're we're going
to come back into that stuff when we start talking about size
up. And this is where I kind of roll
with, Hey, let's teach guys about the tools.
So understand that now we're going to talk talk about the
communication aspect of it. And now we're going to get into
start actually looking at the door and what our operations are

(10:43):
on that stuff and all of it comes to the size up with that.
I'm sure we'll get to after we start talking about some
communication stuff, but dependson what my plan A is going to be
going into that door. Am I attacking right at that
lock? Do I have to work away from the
lock and start working myself closer?
Is the jam something that I can work off of it?

(11:06):
Is it is it sturdy? Is, is it wood?
Is it metal? How much is it going to give me?
So all of those things are goingto play into it how I'm trying
to manipulate that tool in there.
And we might start working with the ads, we might start working
with the forks. It all depends on what the that
door is. And that's going to come into
our size up of starting to breakit down to really give what is

(11:27):
my game plan to start with Plan A, OK.
Great. All right, so continue.
I know I'm hopping all over. The it's all right.
It's good info. So back to your communication,
right. So we we did hit.
All right, so we got hit. So that means I want my partner
to hit my tool one time. Now we're our goal is to get a
gap once we start getting a gap in there.

(11:48):
Now we're trying to set that tool.
So when it comes to that, if we have a good spot and that tool
is not going to have a lot of manipulation, I'm going to tell
my partner to drive. Drive means repeated hits that
are right on point hitting that button on that thing.
So we're getting maximum force of energy, sorry, maximum energy
getting delivered through that tool into the gap of the door

(12:11):
and try to get to our landmarks of those tools.
And so that actually set that efficient efficiently.
After we get that tool set, now it's time I'm going to be called
stop. So stop is stop very obvious
because I don't want to start moving around.
My partner thinks he's still on a in that drive mode and then I

(12:31):
get hit with a tool. So we're going to drive that
thing until you call stop. Your eyes, as the halogen guy
should be watching that door 100% of time you're watching
your tool. You got to know what what's
going on with that door and see what's going on where the depth
of your your tool, how deep it'sgoing in there and get to those
landmarks that you want to get to so that you can call that
stop. And now our job is to now put

(12:53):
some force into that door. Next one, if we're, we can't
talk about a little plan A now reality tells us plan A doesn't
always work. We might be getting to Plan B,
plan C, plan XYZI mean it's the door is going to be the door
that we're getting handed to us.So we got to be flexible in what

(13:13):
we're going over there. So there's times out there that
we have to change the way we're operating with our with our
halogen into that door. And the best way if I start
working on creating a gap and now I'm thinking I was using the
ads, now I want to move over to working with with my forks or I
want to change the angle of the bevel.
If I was working with the forks or my ads a different way,

(13:35):
Whatever I want to re manipulatemy tool.
I don't want to lose all the work that I've already done.
So calling for a wedge, I'm asking my partner, hey, wedge
this door. Either use an aluminum wedge,
use the the axe and put the point part of the axe into there
so you capture all the progress that we've already made.
Now I can hold the halligan out of that door.

(13:56):
We can change it to however I want to now manipulate that that
tool. I'm going to get reset to
wherever I want to go with it's different location, different
end of the tool, put it back in there.
I'm a let him know I'm ready. I'm going to push that, take the
pressure on the door, which allows him to pull his axe out
or his wedge out, whatever he's using to capture the progress.
And now we can get back to work whatever our next next part of

(14:20):
that plan is if we work through the whole thing.
We created our gap, we drove that tool in there.
We set the tool and now we're into the force and I go for the
force and the door doesn't open.But do a quick check in my own
head, I'm I'm looking at the door, I'm looking at my tool.
I know my tools in a good spot. It's where I want to be.

(14:43):
I feel like everything is good, except I'm not able to deliver
enough force to compete with what the doors holding me back
on. So now if I ask for a little
help, that means I want my partner to get in here and we're
going to, we're going to double up our force by putting two of
us on here. We're going to work together so
my energy can now be matched up with their energy and we can

(15:06):
hopefully force the door on there.
If that doesn't work now we got to start going into those
additional plants. How can we increase our force
with some other things? Maybe adding different tools,
maybe extending it out, make it longer to increase that leverage
that we have. So those are all things that are
going to play into into those things.
But #1 going back to the beginning of this, it's all

(15:27):
about communication when it comes to working with the door
for those however long, couple seconds, minute, however long
that door takes it. You got to have good
communication in there. And the fire ground is loud,
it's busy, there's a radio traffic going on.
So we got to, we got to be very to the point, understanding what

(15:47):
we're asking people and just be smooth with that stuff.
We got to be, we got to work together.
We got trained together. We, if we already speak the same
language and we know the positions that we're going to be
at right away, we can get after it really quick and be
successful and are in that little piece of the operation of
the big picture of the environment we're at.
Perfect. I like I said, I love you.

(16:08):
You touched on so many differentthings in such a small little
topic of just communication and we kind of branched out really
quickly. So I'm going to give you the
opportunity to kind of go back to the beginning here and kind
of just run through your class. So you talked real quickly about
size up, right? So let's basically start to
begin. So tell, tell the audience what
you're talking about when you say, because everyone in the

(16:30):
fire service knows the size up, right?
But you're talking about sizing up a building or a door, right?
Yeah, guy, guys look at me weirdwhen I, when I get in there and
I start talking about a class and talking about tools to our
communication. I said OK, now let's step back.
Now we're going to start the size up, size up of the door.
If I'm coming out of the truck where no matter what the scene

(16:50):
is, I start sizing things up. That's life is the as an
officer, you are always sizing things up depending whether
you're 1st and 2nd and 3rd and whatever it may be.
But now we're going to focus that a little bit smaller into
my plan is I need to get throughthat door in front of me.
So as I'm approaching, I grab mytools, my partners grab their

(17:11):
tools. Whoever is grabbing the tools as
we're walking this building, I don't care if we're 10 feet away
from the building or 100 feet away from the building.
I, I like to talk about startingin a broad spectrum.
Number one, what is the building?
Is it a house? Is it commercial?
Is it block? Is it wood framed?
So I start big and start narrowing it down.

(17:32):
As you get closer, this size up is just going on in your head
and it's second should be secondnature.
So understand that building as getting closer.
Now your focus gets a little small and now you're looking at
that door. OK, what type of door is it?
Do I have a wood door, wood frame, metal door, metal frame.
So we're start building these things and they're all of them

(17:55):
are adding to that little rolodex of is this going to be
an easy door is going to be harddoor.
Now as you get a little closer, OK, is this door swinging
inward? Is it swinging outward?
Is there a locking mechanism that I can see?
Is it in the standard locking mechanism spot that is the
opposite of the hinges right in that waste level where every

(18:18):
other standard lock door handle is on a house.
OK, these are clicking off things that are like, OK, I'm
getting a standard challenge of a door.
But now if you're as you're coming in here and you're seeing
that you're like, oh, hey, I'm also seeing second lock or I'm
seeing a plate in a higher spot,or I'm seeing carriage bolts or

(18:39):
Weld marks on the opposite side of the door.
As you're approaching this door,that should be start raising red
flags like there could be some secondary locks on this store,
some some additional security things trying to keep people out
and going back to the beginning of that size up of those things
build in when you we talked about from a far from the

(19:01):
building getting closer and closer.
If we're on a commercial or strip center or something,
understand what that occupancy is that we're going into.
If we're on the front side, what's the entrance going to be
on that versus being on the backside because after hours,
not a lot of stuff do they ever want coming through the back
door of business, business hoursthat might be where shipping and

(19:23):
any deliveries, all of those things might be coming through
there. So it might be less the chances
of the security being higher on the back are more extreme versus
the front, because nobody can usually see if you're in the
back of an alley behind a building versus somebody trying
to break into a business in the front door.
And it's a lighted up parking lot.
So building all those things when it comes to that size up in

(19:45):
there, those play in. So from that big to that small.
And then right as we get into that last part of that door, now
it's I sound the door or shockedthe door.
I I hear a lot of people call it.
So looking at those things afterwe've determined, you know.
What is the building? What is the frame?
What is the door? Which way is it swinging?
What are the locks on there? Are there additional locks?

(20:06):
Are there extra security things in there now?
Shock the door, sound the door. It's going to give you that
secondary feel. I spent a lot of years on a
ladder truck. It's just like sounding a roof.
If you have a lot of experience on it, you're hitting something
that's solid versus hitting something that's not.
So I sound high, middle, low, low, middle, high, does not
matter what your order is, but it's going to give you a good

(20:29):
little reverberation of that door that can tell you if you
are having a lock us an additional lock up high.
Is this door pin high, door pin low, is it only locked in the
middle or any other things on there?
Sometimes it gives you a little bounce off that door that gives
you a little bit of working space to start with as well.
So it's got a couple of added bonuses that could come to you

(20:52):
when you shock a door, sound a door, right?
So that's, so that's great. So that's a really good setup,
but I think a lot of guys kind of miss that key component of
that size up. Like, of course, we all size up
the building, we size up the fire, we size up the rescue
profile or whatever your department happens to call it.
But again, as you're, you're saying, as you're getting closer

(21:13):
and closer, you're looking at all these additional hints right
outward, inward swing and thingslike that.
So I, I wanted to talk to you about a couple things that you
did mention. So you said, let's just talk
about the most recent, the sounding of the door.
So I know that what you're talking about with that value
that the information that that door gives you back as you sound
it right is pretty audible and you can feel it really well in

(21:34):
those inward swinging. Some guys will argue it's a
waste of time to sound an outward swing and what's your
opinion on that? Definitely not a waste of time.
I mean when we start talking on it's information, that is all
we're looking for is information.
Even if you sound it lightly or sound it like you're trying to
beat a hole through it with one shot, it's giving you

(21:59):
information. And that's really what we're
looking for. Because if you've never hit a
door that has a lock down low ordown high, and then you just
start working and you're workingthrough the standard location of
a lock and that you're like, I'mwinning, but I'm losing.
And you, your brain is just so focused on the lock that you can
see and you're not recognizing that it has a secondary point of

(22:22):
securement, whether it's down low, down high, somewhere else,
drop bar, whatever that may be. You're, you're going to be
delayed and you're going to be delayed.
And, and at the end of the day, those delays of us getting
inside the building are delays for us getting to a victim.
And that's at the end of the day, that's the job.

(22:42):
I don't care how I get through that door as long as we can get
through that door fast, efficiently and get to the
person that's in on the inside. Because at the end of the day,
Misses Smith doesn't care what our training is, what our stuff
is. All they care about is us
getting in them, getting them out, getting their family
members out. That's at the bottom line.

(23:03):
That's what they expect from us.Absolutely.
I wholeheartedly agree with you and actually talked in our
previous episode about that too.Everyone always wants to know,
like, hey, what does the public think or expect from us, right?
I'll tell you right now, they think we're trained in
everything. Yes they do.
And you know that you have longer on the job than I do.
And it is one of those things where they expect us to go find

(23:24):
their loved ones. If they're trapped, put the fire
out, right? And then bonus would be we're
nice when we leave. And that's, I mean, it's that
basic right to just do our freaking job.
There is no that the public doesn't know about Van Anderson.
They don't know about what gaps that force is, right?
All they know is that if you gotin the door quickly and it and
it looked good. So when you were talking about

(23:44):
that, though, you're talking about those secondary locking
mechanisms, right? Which segues into something I
really wanted to talk to you about.
So when you were able to identify or you believe that
there's a secondary lock, eitherhigh or low, whatever the
situation is. So your opinion where, where do
you attack first? You'd attack where you know that
primary lock is? Or do you try to work on those

(24:05):
secondaries or this third locking mechanism first?
I don't have an always on this. Everything is we live in the
Gray. Our world is 100% Gray.
So so I can't say one thing and you know, tomorrow I could end
up on a job and have a door. I could do something completely
different because whatever I sensed on that and my size up

(24:25):
told me was try something different.
Or if you're listening to this and you're like, hey, this is
what Dave said and I did it and I learned a faster way.
Well, I will first say I am not the all knowing of everything.
I'm Forrest Blunt. I'm a guy who apparently buys
too many halogens and likes hitting things, so.
The ex baseball player is what it is.

(24:47):
Yeah. But I mean, when it comes to it
is if I'm looking at a standard lock, if I'm thinking drop bar
or a lockdown low, ultimately I'm just going to take what the
door gives me. If I can, If I can start that
process and create that gap nearwhat I believe is the main lock,
that's where I'm going to start at.

(25:09):
If I can't even get into the seam over there and I got to
start working in a different area, I might have to start
working low. And that might be attacking a
lockdown low versus going high. So all of those things, it's
really going to come to whateverthe door gives you.
And that's, that's the one hard thing I feel like I've learned a

(25:29):
lot with training people is the challenge to push people to
constantly try different things.Because when we start working
with training doors, people learn the training door and
they're like, I'm good at this. It's like, you're good at this
door because it's a training door.
You can defeat it the same way every time because it's the

(25:50):
exact same real life. We don't know always what we're
facing. I I love taking some good
pictures of the most random homemade expensive locks.
Just the things that people do to secure their places.
It's very interesting to me because some of them I look at
I'm like, all right, that's going to be fun.

(26:10):
Well, that's going to be easy oroh man, that's going to, that's
going to work us. That's going to suck.
Yeah. Like man, I hope I don't run
across that door in real life. Yeah, I hope there's another
door nearby. I mean, we've all had all of
those things. So it's, it's just, I mean, it's
one of those things of we, we float in the Gray and we got to

(26:31):
we got to understand that size up and now start thinking of
what are those challenges that I'm anticipating in here?
If I'm seeing some carriage bolts in there, do I want to try
and drive them out before I everget into the door?
Maybe that's going to be great. Maybe I do that.
I drive bolts out to get to the other end of the door and
realize it was not even, there was nothing on the backside.

(26:53):
I'm just wasting time. So I mean, it's one of those
things, if we got to, we got to be flexible.
We got to just float in that Gray area, see what the door is
going to give us and start working.
And then the biggest thing I look for is don't be so focused
on that plan. Your, your plans got to be
sitting there going, going, going.
But if you're not making headway, you got to be able to

(27:15):
switch to a new plan very quickly.
What's your very quickly in Coulson spray?
So my very quickly, I'm a 1015 seconds of going in the
direction I want to go, but being unsuccessful.
And and I say that I'm not saying, hey, we're going to
create a gap and we're going to set this tool in 10 seconds

(27:36):
every time. And if we don't, we're going to
stop and change it. No, I'm saying we, we are
working to create that gap. We're we're going to set our
tool or we're not even able to get a gap doing a certain
technique. We got to change it up.
That technique. We got to change up.
We got to start working with thetool on different end.
It's. It's that forward progress like

(27:57):
it's making effective forward progress.
This is working yes OK. 100%, when that forward progress is
slowing down, we got to start looking at something else.
How can we do it? And sometimes going back to
something you were trying prior because you may have weakened
that door and now you're like, hey, OK, now I think I can get
my ads into this area versus before I couldn't.

(28:18):
But now things have changed a little bit.
So now I'm going to I might go back to Plan B when I'm now on
Plan F, but I think Plan B will now work because of the effects
that we've already had on the door.
That's good. So when you when you talk about
the hey, we're in the Gray, there's always, there's never,
always and never, never. I love that because that's 100%

(28:39):
true. So when you talk about being
efficient and making sure we getthrough this door.
So what do you say to those guysare like, Hey, boss, let's kick
the shit out of this thing, right?
Like, hey, dude, have you seen my donkey kick?
It's money, right? So what do you say to those
guys? Because, no lie, I've been that
guy. Before we all have, we all have.

(29:00):
I have too. So.
And obviously as we get older, as we get more experience, as
we're bent or as we are fortunate enough to have senior
guys or guys that are just really good at things, teach us
and we learn more, right? So what do you say to the guys
that are just like, boss, I'm going to kick it, bro.
So I'm going to jump back into my baseball life, OK?

(29:23):
I love it playing playing summerball in college.
It was a wood bat league and I grew up.
Bo Jackson was the man. He's still the man.
Yeah, he's still the man. Yeah.
And we all, we've all seen the videos of him getting mad,
snapping the bat across his leg.And I mean he's.
He's just monster. Yeah, he's a monster.
Just awesome. And mine was not a fresh bat,

(29:46):
had a slight crack in it. I'm like I I'm mad because
probably made of whatever, struck out, who knows.
Went to snap a bat across my leg.
How'd? That go.
It went, I mean it, it went straight to my leg and it hurt
and that bat did not crack. But what do you think I did?
I swapped, I swapped to the other leg because I mean, I

(30:08):
don't want to hit my right leg anymore because that thing was
too painful. So but now I just had to go full
commit like I never tried this before and it didn't it didn't
work. But I'm not going to stop now
because I already started this process.
So so now I'm going to the left leg and I snapped that bat and
it hurt and now for the rest of the game, I mean, I did it
didn't hurt as bad because it did snap and I felt cool.

(30:31):
But for the rest of the game, I had two legs that hurt.
Yeah, it wasn't that good. So now let's bring that into
reality of the fire service. So it hurt worse on the first
leg when I hit it because there was no give in the bat.
It did not break. So if we come up to kick that
door, we don't do a size up and we're just like I every door

(30:54):
I've ever kicked has always flown open because every door
I've ever kicked was an easy front door to residential house
that is 30 years old and has never had any additional
locking. And whatever it may be, if
that's your experience every time and you kick it and it
opens up every time, but you never do a size up and then you
come up to a door that has some additional stuff to it or is

(31:15):
just a well built door holds on strong and it doesn't go.
All of that energy is going somewhere and you gave it to the
door and the door said, I don't think so it's giving it back.
And now that energy is going to your knee, your hip, your back.
And man, one of one of my firefighters a couple years
back, he was dealing with some back issues.

(31:36):
And I mean, it was painful for me watching him.
We got 2530 year careers that wegot to get through.
We got to take care of our take care of our knees, our hips, our
back. When you start having issues
with that beyond the everyday wear and tear we already do to
ourselves, if we're doing it because we thought it looked

(31:57):
cool, but now we have a back issue we're dealing with the
rest of our life, that ain't cool and it's not efficient.
I'll, I'll tell you, Missus Smith doesn't want to see us
kick her door. She wants us to get in there and
do that. But we look way better when we
come up with tools on the first time we walk up to that door
because we're planned, we practice, we come off the truck

(32:20):
ready to work and we size up that door in every step that
we're getting there. And we put those tools to work,
whether it's one man, whether it's two men, and we fly through
that door in a matter of secondswith a lot less energy, 0 impact
to our own body. And now we're ready to go inside
the house and actually do the work.
Because ultimately that door is just, that's starting the game

(32:43):
like it's, that's our ticket to go inside and, and do what we're
here to do. We, we didn't get hired to be
firefighters to break doors. We got hired for firefighters to
go get people out and, and save the property.
So that's the big picture of it.So kicking doors is fun, but
being a professional, understanding your equipment,
understanding the doors you're going in and you can be fast

(33:06):
when you're good at it and doingthat, That's what Misses Smith
in the community wants to see from us.
They want to see us fly through and in three steps, never make a
change in our stride. And we've popped that door all
the way open and we're flying through that house.
So those are the big things whenit comes to what I believe, why
we shouldn't be kicking doors. I've watched.
I have watched guys kick doors one there was no size up because

(33:29):
there was an outward swinging door and I straight walked up to
him like, hey, what are you trying to do?
I'm going to get in here. Cool.
The door swings at you Like whatdo you like, let's let's step
back. Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, I mean it, it's one ofthose things I I so we have a
drone program that we started inin my department.

(33:52):
I think we're about a year a good friend of mine, he was kind
of doing the pilot from buildingthis building the whole
presentation to take forward to our, our administration to, to
get this program off off the ground.
And he's like, hey, Dave, do youmind, do you mind taking a look
at this? Just go through the whole
PowerPoint, pick this thing apart and just destroy me so
that I'm better prepared for that.

(34:13):
I'm like, of course, man, I, I got you.
And so he's the very first page of this is a great work and
fire. It's a strip.
It's a really it's like a 3-4 unit single story apartment.
So pretty standard in our city. We have, I mean, they're
probably sitting at 1200 square feet each apt 1 building doors

(34:37):
are just lined up down, down theway and drone, drone footage.
It was great. I guess I don't know.
I was so zoned in. You got apt A that has the
working fire apartment B that isright next to it.
They I watch a second crew come up, try and make entry.
Guy comes up and kicks it and I watch him just hobble away
because the footage was really good and yeah, it was he did a

(35:01):
good job in that drone footage. But I just watch you know, guy A
kick this door and hobble away from the door.
He goes around the corner and I see him just kind of hunkered
over for a little while because the footage is frame back.
I see about, I don't know, 45 seconds later.
Then another guy come up, try toopen the door.
It's locked. He steps back, he kicks it

(35:23):
doesn't open, and he just goes off to do some other job.
See a third guy come up. All of these are different
people off different crews. He comes up, he kicks the door,
door says, I don't think so again.
And this guy at least was like, all right, we still have to get
in there. He returns to the truck, grabs a
set of irons, goes in, opens thedoor correctly and goes in and

(35:46):
I'm so I'm just watching this thing on the drone PowerPoint
I'm supposed to be looking at and after like after like an
hour, he calls me. He's like, hey, give me all your
feedback on this. How did it look?
And I'm like, dude, did you see this first fart?
Great job on the drone stuff. And I start going and talking

(36:07):
about doors and I'm like, I'm like, man, we need to, we need
to get out there. We need to get guys training
more. We got to start understanding,
Hey, how do we actually go through doors when nobody's
coming up with tools? And I go on for like 15 minutes.
He's, he's a very polite guy. So he let me just do my normal
rant. And then he's like, Dave, I
don't care about the doors. I want to know about the

(36:30):
PowerPoint. I'm like, oh, dude, I I didn't
even make a pass Slide 1. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I'll
call you back in a while and start all over.
But so, yeah, it's, I mean, it'sjust, I get a little sidetracked
when it comes because it's one of those things like we are
professionals. We got to operate like
professionals. And it comes down to training.
And I don't fault any of our guys.
I will say my my training Academy and it was I had a great

(36:53):
training Academy. I had great training officers
but the only force blunch where you learned was take a
sledgehammer to a door and hit. It yeah, and keep hitting it
till it opens, right? Yeah, keep hitting.
It didn't open well. You didn't swing hard enough.
Hit it more. Yeah, keep hitting it.
Keep hitting. It's going to open eventually.
OK. Nobody, even literally nobody
even said, hey, what about if the door swings at you?

(37:14):
That was never even a conversation.
And I I don't fault my training officers because like I said,
they were awesome. I learned so much, but our
region was very weak and forcible entry for a long time
and I don't I don't know how that was.
Well, part of it was I think we all had one certain Halligan

(37:35):
that was not good. So probably guys were very
unsuccessful. Anyways, our knowledge base just
wasn't there. And I, when I got home on a
ladder truck, my knowledge base wasn't there.
I mean, I remember sitting with my cat and we're going behind
buildings and I'm like, all right, how we going to go
through this door? And this was before I even had a
problem with the learning about forcible entry.

(37:57):
This was just, I'm a guy who says that door looks hard and
it's going to kick my butt. And I remember the stuff we
would talk about and it was, it was very clear.
None of us really knew what we were doing.
So then it kind of that started that ball.
I feel like like, oh man, none of us are really that trained on

(38:18):
this, knowledgeable on this and I started reading like the FDNY
forcible entry manual is probably one of the best
readings out there when it comesto forcible entry because they
have so much experience on it tostart with.
They have, they have done such agood job when it comes to
documentation of the history, the how, the why, the
techniques, the different types of locks.

(38:40):
I mean, they, it, it goes so, sodeep.
So if somebody ever wants to read one thing about forcible
entry and one thing only, the FDand Y forcible entry manual is
by far the one thing. If you're only going to read one
thing to read, it's not a short read, but sometimes you get
hooked. No, no, it's a good one for
sure. And I mean, obviously it's just
the nature of the business that they work in.

(39:00):
They it's mostly apartments. It's high rise, mid rise, you
name it, right. But it's the freaking slums.
Everyone locks all their shit with multiple locks, right.
So those guys had to get really good really quick.
Oh yes, yeah. So I, I agree wholeheartedly.
Like if if you're talking about tip of the spear, especially
when it comes down to forcible entry.
Yeah, absolutely. Fine, fine.
The literature that Dave's talking about and, and, and

(39:22):
school yourself up on it. So along the forcible entry
line, we talked about, you know,the anatomy of the doors, right?
What the door gives you. I love that because that's been
coming around a lot lately. When we start talking about what
does the building give you? Was roof give you.
So now we're using it for doors to was the door give you because
again, like you said before, we operate in a Gray right.
Depending on that door attached to that house or that commercial

(39:44):
building, right. This is my level A or my plan AB
and C, and then I'll start expanding off of that.
So with that said though, we talked, you talked real briefly,
so I want to talk about it now. You talked about markings on the
tools Halligan's that weren't successful.
So let's talk about tool anatomya little bit.
So yeah, talk like, tell me about the mechanical advantage,
tell me about the markings, the guys that mark them when they

(40:06):
don't mark them, Why do they allthat fun stuff.
So, so tuning your tool, it is what we're referring to.
And when we say that trying to think of the first tool that I
know it came out-of-the-box tuned I believe was Max the
Maximus bars and great tools that come out open the box ready
to go, don't do anything to it. Prior to that, it was tuning
your tool. So their search and destroy

(40:28):
would put out a great a great paper on tuning your tool that
breaks it all down on how to do it, why to do it, What's the
advantages of doing it. And we'll talk about the
simplest things of without getting too deep into it, but
the markings on your tool, a gap, a gap line and a set line
on your ads and on your forks. Those are things that I folks

(40:49):
especially teaching whether it'srecruits to senior experienced
guys like it's about those are the two most important things to
understand on their understand those lines because they are
guidelines for us. And when we have a million
things going on through our headbecause we are on that that big
fire. And my job is not just to get

(41:11):
through that door. My job is to get through that
door, search that building, findthe fire, find the victim, pull
that victim out, all of those other things and you may be
running command in that same motion.
All all of these things going on.
The last thing I want to wonder is and how how deep am I in this
door with this Hal again? So the lines are great because

(41:33):
they add that added piece to help you out and just give you
give you a little support and what you're doing.
So the gap line, gap line that when we talked about the depth
of a door, this average depth when it comes to hitting that
door jamb is inch and three quarters before we hit that
middle jam on there. Is that the same for inward and

(41:53):
outward swinging typically? Well, yes, but if it's inward
swing and we're on the side withthat piece in there, so merely
interesting on it. But yes, it's the same depth
just whichever side you're standing on the door.
But so if we start going in there and we feel like we're
coming up to some resistance, wedidn't start kind of moving and
manipulating our tool to reach around the door and we feel like

(42:15):
we're hitting something solid. And if we we can look down and
say, hey, we're, we're just at our gap line now we got to start
thinking, Hey, I need to start. I might be a little behind the 8
ball and I haven't started manipulating my tool to get
around the door and I'm not in aspot that I can force it because
my tool is going to come flying out because I'm not into that
set position. So now we feel like we've gotten

(42:39):
past whatever, get past that first line and now we're driving
our tool, driving our tool sitting on depending if you put
2 lines, some people don't always put 2 lines when it comes
to the ad. Some put a single line, but now
putting that thing all the way to that set line.
So if you have two lines, it'll be the deepest line in there.
When we talk about the forks, it's an inch and three quarter

(43:02):
for that gap line. Our set line is basically going
to sit right at the crotch of that tool, which is 5 inches on
majority of all all forks out there.
And so when we get somewhere near that line, that's just a
reference point to tell us that our tool should be in that good
deep location that we can now apply good amount of force into

(43:23):
the store. And hopefully we're not pushing
enough force, it's going to overcome the force holding the
door. So we're going to use those
lines to our advantage, working with them just to make sure that
our tools are set that we can, we can get that force in there.
Now the second part of that is using those lines, but also
understanding what is the strongparts of these tools.

(43:45):
I'm going to say the strongest. I'm a, I'm an ads fan.
I always start with the ads. I it's what I prefer, easier to
get into a lot of spots. It is the strongest movement of
the of the tool when we start talking about crushing a door,
but you're limited at an inch and a half to two inch.
I think the widest one out there's like 3 1/2 inches.

(44:08):
So it's going to limit how much space that you can actually
create. But it is the strongest movement
of that tool. So if I can only give we're
talking just a standard pro bar,which is kind of the old iron
horse of Halligan's if by force on that thing is a 15 to one
mechanical advantage of it. So if I only give 100 lbs of

(44:28):
force, it's delivering 1500 lbs of force into that tool into
that door, creating that gap. I'm only going to get it inch
and a half to two inches. A pro bar would be a 2 inch gap
right there. If we drive that thing a little
deeper where it actually gets a little smaller on our on our
ads, now it's actually an inch and a half tapers down.

(44:49):
That gives us a 20 to one mechanical advantage if we
actually bury that thing a little deeper into that inch and
1/2 area. But it's also you only have an
inch and a half of room to play.So great for gapping, great for
just crushing a door, creating that some sort of opening get
started. Sometimes if we can get into the
right spots, that's all we need to get the door open.
Got take what the door is givingus.

(45:11):
Now if we start prying with our ads so we're not in that
crushing motion, we're now getting the ads behind something
and prying. Now we're working with our 5 to
one mechanical advantage of thatads and start start working our
tool that way, which now my 100 lbs of force is 500 lbs of force
going into that door. So still stronger than anything

(45:34):
I'm going to deliver. It's going to it's going to
maximize my ability with it. So it's playing with that.
If we switch and we'll start working on the fork, the fork
end. Now our four using our forks,
getting that prying, making thatthing a lever in there.
It gives us a six to one mechanical advantage, prying
with our forks. And it's it's just getting all

(45:56):
those tools into that right spot, understanding the
manipulation of that tool to getthere and now how to deliver
that energy into the location that we want to get to.
I I always tell guys like when it comes to force blantry,
understand those basics, understand your tools,
understand the commands, understand the mechanical
advantage of the tool, but ultimately it's going to come

(46:19):
down. It's got to be hands on.
We I can't, I can't tell you I can't watch a YouTube video and
then go open a door if I've never touched it before.
I know I try and work on my car all the time because I love
working on cars. I watch YouTube videos.
They did this thing at 3 minutesto replace something that took
me, you know, six hours. And we as much as I love

(46:39):
Instagram, YouTube, they give you so much information, but you
now got to take that informationand you got to get hands on with
it. You got to, you got to play with
it. You got to test it.
You got to, you got to try it because we can't start it on the
fireground. It's got to, it's got to start
in a sterile environment so you can actually make those mistakes
fail, so that you can learn. Yeah, I mean, it's University of
YouTube for sure. It's it's good for a bunch of

(47:00):
different things, but kind of like you said too, like you have
to understand that whoever's teaching or showing that
technique or whatever it is on YouTube or Instagram, whatever
the case might be, that's specific typically to their
region or, or the doors that they typically come across.
So again, like you're saying, nothing replaces that hands on
because we might not have that style door, that style lock

(47:21):
that's prevalent out here or whatever, and vice versa from
east to West. So you're absolutely right, like
you, there's nothing that limitsthe ability of just getting your
hands on and practicing and practicing.
But when you're talking about the markings and then the the
depths of the markings and then why they exist, it makes sense.
But I know guys have asked like,hey, boss, what happens if I,
what happens if I drive past that last marking?

(47:43):
Am I? Is it?
Is it still going to work? Or what am I losing or gaining
by going to deeper deeper? So it depends on which end
you're working with. I mean, obviously.
Let's talk to Forks for. Example because that's.
Typically, yeah. Forks, So the risk of driving
too deep is if you put those shoulders past the door and they

(48:04):
and that door closes somewhat and you're not able to force it.
You're not working with a lever that can only do one thing and
that's pushed from the middle. So you're you've shortened your
lever, you've lost your mechanical advantage and you're
probably not getting your tool back out without using some sort
of other tool to createspace to pull that thing out.
So that's the biggest risk of going too deep with the forks.

(48:27):
Going to the crotch is the standard.
It's a very simple location to find on any tool.
Our majority of forks out there are 6 inches long.
The crotch sits right at that 5 inch mark.
So it's just an easy identify identifiable location and if
your tool doesn't come pre tunedto just cut a mark in, if you

(48:50):
don't make it all the way to themark, if you're in a good spot
and you got a good bite on that door and you're you're still
set. That's OK.
The marks are purely a guideline.
It is not a rule, hard and fast that if you don't get to this
line, this door ain't open. And it's not saying that it's a
guideline just to support the work you're doing that you can
understand like I'm in, I'm in that general vicinity and I feel

(49:13):
like my doors, my tool is set inthis door.
And if I put some good force to it, I should win.
Hopefully I win. Good and that's that's exactly
what I was kind of looking for because a lot of guys, they'll
get stuck on that like when we start talking, especially
anything that's not common practice for that individual,

(49:35):
you know, say if someone hears this and they start tuning their
tools, that's that's freaking great.
I hope that does happen. But with that said, it's like
then now taking that informationand say, Hey, Dave Coulson says
we have to go the crotch every single time, you know, so it's
yeah, it's okay if you go past right, but remember the risks,
right? And again, if we go a little
shallow, it awesome again, like you probably were referring to,

(49:56):
like what was that door give youthat day?
Or was that building giving you?So say you're successful, you
you go through all your steps ofyour gap set for us.
You're a student of the game, you're successful and you and
you open that door. What's what's the next thing
you're teaching your guys? Like what's the most important
things that follow that? Because you already said from
get go, that's that's our hallway, like we're running down
the tunnel. It's a Super Bowl, right?

(50:17):
Like they just introduced us. The work has even started.
So what's super important to you?
So #1 we kind of talked briefly on it already is our job.
Our jobs go in there and get them like, so I'm typically not
on air when I'm forcing a door, but that door opens up.
Now we got to still start building.
And this is where it comes to bea student of the game, not a

(50:40):
student of just forcible entry, student of our craft.
We want to be a master of our craft.
So now it's open up that door. Now it's starting to read that
smoke very quickly. All of these things happen with
experience of going very instantly.
Like, OK, I'm not going to standup in a chimney and suck smoke.
It's OK, we're going to get downlow.
We're going to look for that neutral plane of that smoke and

(51:03):
hopefully we got a good neutral plane there.
Now I'm now looking inside that building.
I want to stay below. I want that good air that's
going in to keep my head there and stay below the bad air, bad
smoke coming out and now we're going in we're looking for life.
So it's called life fire layout.And I'm open up that door and

(51:23):
we, we kind of talk a lot of people majority when you start
looking at that firefighter rescue survey, a lot of people
are working towards the exits iswhere they may become over calm
and down. So if we open up that door and
then I stop and I don't think and I'm not a smart thinking,
educated firefighter. And I now step back and I mask

(51:45):
up and I'm will say not having my best day and it takes me 30
seconds to mask up, but there's a victim a foot and a half
inside the door. What am I really doing when it
comes to being professional and willing to actually risk a lot
to save a lot getting into that risk management profile?
So we're going to open up that door, look for that neutral
plane. Now I want to look for life.

(52:06):
I want to be in that clear freshair.
And I'm going to hook my foot onthat door and I'm going to get
inside that building and I'm hooking my foot because if I
don't, I'm going to probably go farther and I don't want to go
farther. All I'm looking for is that
immediate grab that's right by the door, right behind the door.
So I'm going to hook my hook my foot in there and I'm going to

(52:27):
do a layout and sweep and try and see if I can feel anybody.
Don't sweep with the tool because if you hit a body, if
you hit a chair, if you hit a wall, it all still feels the
same with the tool. And that's hoping that you don't
take a the the spike end and drive it into somebody.
So yeah. That would be a bad.
Day, yes. So get in there.
I'm going to go as far as I can yeah, I'm going to hook my foot

(52:51):
in there. I'm going to give a good sweep,
see if I find any putty. If I don't OK, I I've got in the
habit of every time I do that, Ipop that door, my halogen goes
to the hinge side of the door and I'm hooking the latch side
of the door. I do that for a reason because I
have the space I can I can get alittle more farther out to that

(53:11):
side. Typically the door is going to
swing open and it's going to go to a wall if there is a wall
that on that backside. So I'm going to do that soon as
I don't find a victim now checked off my life.
There was no life right there that I I'm going to make a grab
now I'm going to see if I can see the fire.
What is that? What is that smoke doing?
Can I get a good look down that?Can I see the fire?

(53:32):
Is it heavy? Is it give me some whatever
information it's giving me for alittle knowledge of where am I
going and what is the volume of smoke what's the pressure?
What's the energy? Can I just see, is it a contents
fire that I can see right from the front door?
So I'm going to get that information.
Then I'm going to go to that layout and my layout I'm looking

(53:55):
for is the building. What am I looking at when I see
in there? And it granted, I'm only four
feet inside this door laying on the ground, but it can give me a
good idea of at 8 feet, there's a wall and we're going to turn
and it may be a ranch style house running long ways.
It may be a an apartment runningdeep, it may be a trailer that's

(54:19):
has just a room to the right anda bedroom to the left.
I mean, it's giving you all of that information.
Hopefully in that very short time that you're in there.
After that, I'm getting my checkfor life.
Check, see what I could see whatfire, see where that fresh air
was going to hopefully to the seat of the fire.
Got a good layout of the building.

(54:39):
Now it's time get out of the wayand if my nozzle guy, obviously,
if my nozzle guy was standing right behind me ready to go, I'm
going to pop the dorm and get get out of his way.
He's going in. But if he's not ready to go, I'm
going to do my life fire layout.And then I keep my halogen on
the hinge side of the door. So I'm going to hook that door
with my halogen and I'm pull it back closed and I want to hook

(55:01):
it with my halogen because that forces me to keep my halogen in
between that door and the and the door frame.
So that, and no matter what dooryou do, you're dealing with it
can't relock. And the worst thing you can ever
do is open up a door and then let it close and it somehow re
latches on stuff. And if it was a hard door, which

(55:21):
it probably is, if he had to relock, it relocks and then you
got to do it all again. It's just demoralizing.
So we're going to close that door, keep our tool in there.
So there's now we're only sitting with like a one inch gap
in between that door and have that door control.
We don't want to feed that fire.We want to understand the flow
path. We don't want to change all of
all of those things until we areready to make entry in there and

(55:45):
go get, go do that full search, go search for the fire and go
put that fire out. Right.
Yeah, it's And I can attest to that.
My first door I ever forced was a metal inward swing, an
apartment door, and I kicked it right.
It actually worked all right, Went flying open and then went

(56:05):
flying shut and relaxed and locked.
And it was one of those things where I'm like, I was so excited
and so upset all within a secondand a half.
And I'll never forget my Lieutenant behind me was like,
well, that was fucking dumb, bro.
Do it again. And I'm like, how awesome.
Like, shit, you're absolutely right.
And guys, I feel like guys kind of forget about door control

(56:26):
sometimes. And again, hence is on that
professional firefight that we talk about when we use our
tools, we can control that door minus the kicking.
We're not going to blow out, blow it off its hinges and then
have a uncontrolled flow path, which we all know it's very
important when it comes down to the modern day fire service and
modern day fire tactics. So kind of so kind of with that

(56:47):
said, so, so we, we talked aboutour or bread and butter tactics
for forcing doors. There's this new thing coming
around right now and I'm curiouson how you feel about it.
So a lot of departments are going with battery powered
extrication tools, right? So they're, they're amazing for
multiple different reasons. But in the forcible entry world

(57:08):
now, so we are no longer tethered by 100 to 200 foot
hydraulic lines, right. So what do you think about the
crews that are going to those commercial buildings where
they're forcing multiple doors? How do you feel about the
technique of a crew, say 2 firefighters or an officer and a
firefighter literally setting gaps and then those battery
powered spreaders are coming in behind and just exploding those

(57:32):
doors? What do you feel about that?
Yeah, I'm, I am very much up. I, I have not gotten the
opportunity to do that, but I'm sitting across the table from
somebody who I know has, if we're getting sent to the back
of the building, I work on a heavy rescue truck.
So we get, we get that that job a lot when there's a lot of
doors. And so it's one of those things

(57:52):
that we need to bring everythingthat potentially is going to
benefit us into that job. So bring in a minimum of two
sets of two sets of irons, bringin New York hook or a Lockwood
hook. Bring something that's going to
help us increase that that mechanical advantage and that
reach. Those things are key when it
comes to we have a lot of doors to open, not just the standard

(58:16):
house fire, front door and go. It's we have backside of
buildings, metal doors, expectedextra work into this task where
we just got to sign. So bringing those things,
bringing a saw, bringing excitation tools, I'm all in.
It's if that is going to be supportive in the work that

(58:37):
we're getting done there, then it's got to be an Ave. that
we're willing to look at in an Ave. we're willing to try it.
That's a hard 1 to get on some of the training doors we have.
And that's where it comes when we anytime we have a acquired
structure, something in your, your region or your jurisdiction
that's going to get torn down. Making those relationships with,
with either construction companies or for I work in a

(59:01):
city just with our honestly, ourlegal department.
How do we get some hold harmlessagreements that when we know
about it going on or they're going to tear down that strip
center, how can we make those relationships to get in there
and actually get some hands on stuff to practice that stuff?
So I have not gotten the opportunity to use the
extrication tools for us. We've just recently gotten the

(59:24):
battery operated 1. So our tether just recently got
cut and, but I love the idea. And then we also have the
Hallmatro halogen out there that's coming into play that has
a basic, a rabbit tool built into that.
So, so these are all things thatour job is always evolving and
needing to look outside the box and other, other options.

(59:46):
Because I, I know there's definitely times that if I just
go in with irons, I may get through the door.
But if I come in with irons and also, Hey, my other guy is
sitting behind me with a, with some spreaders and we got a good
gap and I feel like we can pop get the tip of that thing in
there and pop this door. Let's go for it.

(01:00:06):
And there's other days that thatmight not work.
So being able to play work through plan A through Z is key
on that and using the different tools that are at our leisure to
put into play. If you happen to have the
Hallmotro. Halligan that has a little
rabbit that may aid you in certain things, it may not help

(01:00:26):
you in other ways. So just learning the tools that
you're given, play with them, open up those opportunities,
just really to see how successful you can be in so many
different ways. That's, that's really good.
So the, the main reason why I ask that is to be, well, like
you had said before, I have had a chance to do it and it was
very successful in the doors that we tried it on.

(01:00:49):
Obviously not saying that is going to be successful in every
door, but for me personally, andI'm sure you feel the same, but
I want to kind of have a conversation about this.
So we talked about playing basically A through Z, right,
with my plan A through Z. It never includes going back to
the truck. No.
So it's again like, Hey, what's your staffing model show you?

(01:01:09):
How many dudes do you have to carry stuff, right?
So what is what is logically the, what can you actually get
to say a couple, 100 feet behinda building or down an alleyway
or whatever where you can't fit a piece of apparatus on what you
want to do? And I really wanted to talk
about that just because I know in the fire service, especially
when you get a new tool, right, and I'm just talking about the

(01:01:30):
battery operating because that'sprobably the biggest change in
the fire service as the whole right now that everyone's
jumping on board with because they are amazing tools.
But with that said, you're goingto have those young guys,
especially when they're like, boss, I'm going to do this every
time, right? So what do you say to those guys
that are like, I don't need to go, I don't need to learn the
basics, right? As long as I can know how to set

(01:01:51):
a gap, bro, I'm good, right? So I mean, that's kind of where
we're going into, you know, obviously we have these tools at
your disposal. Then I know you work on a heavy,
so you have almost every tool out there, right?
So what do you tell your back step fireman right when, when
they're saying or see example, you had a job where you were
where you use those spreaders and it was very successful.

(01:02:13):
And then he starts telling all of his Academy brothers or all
the guys he works with go 100% of the time, go with this, go
with this, go with this. What do?
What do you say to that? It's going to, it's going to
bite you in the butt. I mean, there's no other way to
say it. Like if you say this is my
tactic, 100% of the time you're going to fail.
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

(01:02:35):
So just understand that. And when it comes to this is you
got to have the basic style we got to you got to you got to be
able to walk before you can run.And when it comes to teaching
forcible entry, I'm currently I'm down at with the recruits.
So with the recruits, we very much focus.
It's two man operations only we're we're going to hammer this

(01:02:56):
in. So you have those core basic
stuff when I teach with experienced guys and then hey,
we're going to work two man. We're going to get this down and
then we're going to start working one man.
Then we're going to start addingother tools into this.
We're going to we're going to increase our leverage, we're
going to increase our force, we're going to increase our
capabilities of now let's talk about using battery operated

(01:03:16):
spreaders. Let's talk about a rabbit tool.
Let's talk about any other thingthat you can bring forward and
tell me that you carry on your truck.
So those are all great things. I'm 100% with you.
We are not going back to the truck about obviously life says
you are sometimes because you got a job that wasn't what you
expected. But if we're smart thinking

(01:03:39):
about our task that we're just given, we should be building
that plan the minute we get thattask and us as a crew, we're
working together like cool, hey,I'm grabbing this, you're
grabbing this as we're leaving that truck as a team, we're
communicating like, all right, we got everything, let's roll.
So rolling, rolling to that backside of the building.

(01:04:01):
We're going to the seaside of the building and now it's time
to start opening up doors. It's having that game plan of
I'm a fan of, I don't care if you're going to open up more
than one door and you have more than two people, you should have
a minimum of two sets of irons. And I've had guys tell me, Dave,
we only carry one set of irons on the truck.

(01:04:21):
Yeah, I'm like, cool, the next closest truck you get to take
theirs, They're not going to tell you no because they're not
using them because it's on the truck still.
So grab, grab a second set because you may be able to split
off and start working, Hey, one man operations on doors or two
man operations on doors or splitinto two and two, whatever your,

(01:04:42):
your makeup of your guys are andstart getting efficient work
done as much as you can. And with that, we start going
cool. Hey, we even brought our our
spreaders with us because we hadthat many hands today and we
start going over there. The spreaders may be great on
that perfect scenario that you get in there, you got a good
gap. This door, this door is giving

(01:05:04):
it to us. It's not an easy door to open.
Get the spreaders, pops it open,cool.
Well, that next door you go into, we get that good gap.
It may also still be faster justto finish driving our tool in
there and putting the conventional forceable entry put
force into that door. That may be faster than taking
the tool out, trying to get the spreaders in there and less

(01:05:27):
fatigue on your guys where you're just hey, let's let's get
in there and get it done. Let's get the if we got the
basics done down, we can build on that.
If we never have the basics of going back to that guy that he
is first day ever opening a doorand we decided we played with
the spreaders and that door flewopen.
He's telling everybody it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

(01:05:47):
It worked great there, but that doesn't mean it's always going
to work great. We we got to have the basics.
We got to be able to walk beforewe can run.
We are running when we're using spreaders like we are, we are in
that full Sprint. We understand a full aspect of
our job and we're bringing an outside tool that's not designed
for that job and using it into that job because we made it
apply and it works. But if we don't have those

(01:06:10):
basics down of Hey, I know my two man operations, I know my
commands and I know my objectives and I can work
through plan A through Z on that.
And we can't even get to that other tool or other additional
stuff in that week when you got the basics, you can roll off of
that. Now we can jump into one man
operations. We can we can do a lot of other
things with that, but it's I don't know if you've ever sat

(01:06:34):
through Aaron Fields. I I can't, I obviously am not
taking credit for this, But and I can't tell Aaron Fields a
story one as good as him, but hehe goes into if you've ever
taken his class, one of the greatest classes in the fire
service, the nozzle forward class, but he gets into talking
about a wrestling competition. He had a pretty much talks about
going against the guy and the guy straight told him, Hey,

(01:06:57):
these are the three moves I'm going to do on you and you stop
those, you're going to beat me. And so Aaron, this is his life.
So he tells it very well. I'm not even going to attempt
it, but basically he gets workedby this guy who is the the top
dog. And only doing 3 moves. 3 moves
OK. But at the end, what he learned

(01:07:18):
was if you have those basics down so good, you can stop move
a, but that guy's so good at those three moves that he can
transition off of 1 because you defended that and get into two.
And if you defend 2, he gets into three.
If you defend 3, you can get back into one.
So being good at the basics and hammering that down to the point

(01:07:39):
that you are a master of your craft at that.
You can do everything off of that because having, having just
that good knowledge base of Hey,I'm, I'm coming off the truck
and I'm going through that door.I'm going to get my size up.
I know my tools. I know how to work my tools.
My, my partner. If I'm going to man him and I,

(01:07:59):
we speak the same language. We, we are looking at the same
things. He knows when to chime in and he
knows when to just to be that supportive team member and
listen and do the actions going in there.
We're, we're doing all this and if we're, we have all that down,
we can now we can navigate off that.
If the world gives us something different, We weren't ready for
it. We're ready for it because we

(01:08:21):
weren't worried about the basics.
The basics we're, we're, we're nailing because we, we train on
them so hard. We know I'm so good.
We're not thinking about them. We're thinking about what's on
the other side of the door. How many people are in this?
Should I go left? Should I go right?
Is it a commercial building? And do we have squatters hanging

(01:08:42):
out inside do all those other things?
What's the smoke doing? What's the fire load doing like?
Oh, look at that velocity of smoke.
This thing's going to, this thing's going to go soon.
Like all of those things should.Those are the things we should
be paying attention to because we are professional
firefighters. We need to have full picture of
it. We want to be, we all want to be
a master of our craft. So we got to put the work in.

(01:09:05):
We got to. And it all starts ground up.
You can't. You can't start at the top of
the ladder. You got to start at the base.
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I mean, it's, I mean, I
can't, I can't agree with you any more than everything you
already said, but you're, you'reabsolutely correct.
So if you got the basics, everything else is easy.
And when you're really good at the basics, the complicated

(01:09:27):
things aren't that complicated anymore.
But like you said, it's, it's, and we, we know this terminology
a lot, Dave, because you and I have talked classes together and
it's one of those things where it's like the it's, it's trying
to get those blinders off, right?
And it's, we always refer to blinders for new guys, which of
course they all have it, but we always forget to say that, hey,
when that freaking senior fireman that was really good at

(01:09:48):
everything promotes the engineer, the blinders go back
on because all of a sudden he's now at a job that he's not 100%
comfortable with anymore. He's no longer the master of
that craft, right? And then we get promoted a
suppression officer, same deal or whatever.
But man, it's what is your, whatis your opinion?
What's the best way for like a up and coming guy, right, to

(01:10:10):
make sure that he takes those blinders off?
I have a general idea, right? But I'm just curious on what you
think would be the best advice to that guy.
That's like, hey, man, I want toget the basics down to
everything, right? What's what's a secret pill?
What's What's a secret potion? Well, there isn't 1 is the
secret, but the willingness justto listen and be humble.

(01:10:33):
I feel like, man, having a humility and being humble, it's
going to go a long way in this. And and when I say that when
it's trying to take those blinders off and gain that
experience, it's it's a matter of willing to ask guys that you
you come into the station and you get that smell like they had
a good night. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:10:54):
We all know it. OK, Sit down and ask questions,
see what kind of information youcan get.
You can learn even if you weren't there, drive over to
that that location, get that information, try it.
Just pick people's brains apart.And also, which is hard in the
fire service because we're all on that type A mentality when we

(01:11:14):
do something. Don't be afraid to ask for
feedback. And when you get the feedback,
people aren't telling you that feedback to be me.
They're telling you because theysaw something that can make you
better and advance your, your abilities and advance your
knowledge. And they're, I promise you

(01:11:36):
they're they're just trying to help you.
So be open minded, Listen to them, take the information.
And then when you got a time late, let's, let's regurgitate
that information and think aboutwhat they're, what they were
seeing, what I was doing and tryand learn from that and get
better. And, and I say that guys will
listen to this. Be like, that's, that's not,
that's not the Dave I've seen. Well, I've been doing this 21

(01:11:58):
years. I got, I got hired at 21.
I was an idiot and I got humbledvery quick in life.
And I get humbled every day. And, and I'm no different than
everybody else. There's things I'm passionate
and I'm driving and I'm, I want to, I want to keep going and
doing a good job. And sometimes you need to be

(01:12:19):
able to sit, sit back and take that information.
Sometimes we all don't take it well, sometimes we take it
great. And I feel like over the years
I've gotten so much better of like, cool, man, what do, what
do you think? How do we do?
A lot of times, especially beingin the front right seat, I ask
guys all the time after like, hey, cool, tell me what you guys

(01:12:39):
were thinking? What what were good things that
went on? What are things we could have
done better? And a lot of time they're like,
Oh, I don't want to tell you themistakes we made.
Well, I, I can tell you one thing is we didn't we weren't
100% perfect every single call because I've run all those calls
and we make mistakes every time.Most of the time we just laugh
about it because now we have a great job and it's fun to laugh

(01:13:00):
about the stupid stuff we do. I mean, I've from the simplest
thing to I've straight falling out of the truck because I've
caught my toe, you know, have one of my one of my best friends
literally step over me staring at me like, what are you?
What is wrong with you? Yeah.
What? Are you lying on the ground
floor? Yeah, we're good at laughing.
And then we'll check to make sure you're OK.
Yeah, 100%, yeah. But but the simplest things from

(01:13:23):
getting out of the truck to OK, hey now we just, we just
breached that door. Cool.
Did it go good like did what were you guys seeing?
Were there things that we could have changed, could have made us
faster, could have made us a little more efficient, any of
that stuff. Like we have the humility of
willing to ask people and actually embrace the feedback

(01:13:45):
you get from them because peoplearen't going at you to tell you
just because you suck. If they're willing to actually
step up in front and say, hey, Steve, you did a great job on
that, but did you ever think about this or did you see this?
They're not, they're not questioning your ability.
They're not questioning your knowledge of how awesome a

(01:14:08):
firefighter you are. They're they may actually just
be asking because they didn't understand what you were doing,
because they're their mindset may not have this, the knowledge
in that area or they saw something.
They're like, hey man, you were doing this.
I think if you would have done that, it might have changed it
and it might work. Maybe you go back and play with
that, try that. So and just having that humility

(01:14:31):
and hum and humbleness to get better.
That's how we grow. I mean, it's, we grow from our
from the lessons we learn in life.
I mean, every, you read all the after action reports of fires,
we go on, you know, all of that stuff.
It has an area, it's called lessons learned.
They're on every incident we have from the for a reason.
Yeah. So we need to embrace that, like

(01:14:55):
actually go in and be like, Oh yeah, that is a that is a good
lesson. I probably shouldn't do that
again. And we all do it.
We think we are doing not we allhave a Rolodex in our head when
we've we the more, the more incidents we run, the more calls
we run, the more fires we run, we're getting all that, that
Rolodex rolling in the back of your head.
So it's it's all experience and it's building that knowledge

(01:15:16):
base. And now it's putting it in
place. So you're always critiquing
yourself, whether you think it or not.
And you're making those lessons learned whether you think it or
not. Now let's bring all the other
people and let them give you some some knowledge as well
because their lessons could be your lessons.
We can all move forward together.

(01:15:39):
So Dave, I love it. We'll we'll end on the forcible
entry thing on, on that right there.
Learn from everyone else's lessons right first before you
repeat their mistakes, and then.I I tried to break the bat
across my knee. It didn't work the first time.
Please learn from that. Get good with your tools and
you're going to fly through thatdoor.
And if you're a baseball guy like me, you also got the

(01:16:00):
baseball swing you. Guys do have as much as I make
fun of the baseball players on the job or whatever, you guys
are typically the best at the baseball swing for obvious.
Yeah, I still, I'm still, you know, hitting 333% on that thing
because, you know, Oh. A baseball.
Baseball numbers. That's excellent.
Yeah, I mean, I'm still, I'm still playing in the pros 100%

(01:16:23):
if I can just make it instead ofalways one for three on my
success rates. And the big thing when I I
because everybody sees the videoand they're like, oh, that's
awesome. I want to do that.
And I always tell guys when they're like, hey, can we try
this? I'm like, here's the deal.
When you try it, you get one shot at that door because you
drive that thing in the doors. You're either going to get it or
you're not. And now you can't step back 2

(01:16:45):
steps and take another swing. That is unprofessional.
But that advance to the door allin one motion, making that swing
and flying through that door, that is skill.
Correct. But when you fail, now it's a
conventional force entry. Let's get into it, and let's do
it the way that we know will win.
Perfect. I love it right.

(01:17:06):
Is there anything else I know I know you can talk forever.
Yeah, right. And I I hope we covered the
basics and really the anatomy ofthe tools and then what we're
looking for. Is there anything else that you
want to add on the forcible entry before we questions of
the? Day and I, I feel like there's
so much that we didn't even touch on, but it's a forcible
entry. It is a hands on deal.

(01:17:27):
I actually thought I'd only talked for like 10 minutes.
I didn't know what I'd talk about after that.
An hour and 20 minutes. Oh, my wife's going to love
that. Yeah.
But so we when we talked about it, it's a it's a hands on
skill. You can't just watch a video.
You can watch videos, you can get techniques, you can get
tips, but it got to get out there and do it.

(01:17:48):
And ultimately, just find a door, find somebody has a door,
talk your agency into getting itand get out.
I don't care what tools you have, the tools that are in your
hand are the best hand to use atthat time.
So whatever it is, get out there, use them, try them, play
them, learn, learn the skill, learn other skills that are
going to associate with it and bring it all together.

(01:18:09):
Our goal, being smart, educated,thinking firefighters.
I don't want somebody that's just going to run through the
wall because I said to run through the wall.
I want him to run through the wall because he he's thinking on
the other side of the wall. There's a person I'm going to go
get out. And I got a purpose to go
through it, not just because that guy told me to go like, be
smart, think, do your job and bea master of that craft.

(01:18:31):
There you go. Be smart.
Do your job right again. Well, we'll end it on this
because I love this. The tool in your hand, right, is
the best tool that you currentlyhave, right?
I love it, right? So it doesn't matter.
Just be proficient with that tool and sets and reps, right?
That's all you need. OK All right, Well, again, thank
you for coming out. We have a couple questions,

(01:18:52):
right? So same questions for the entire
season. There's only four of them.
Answer whatever first comes intoyour brain.
All right, so question #1 why everyone gets this question,
especially when they're trying to get hired, But why did Dave
Coulson join the fire service? I'm going to give you the same
answer I've been giving people for before I got hired All

(01:19:14):
right, fear of having to get a real job.
I'm a first generation firefighter.
I, I was lucky enough to my I, Imean, I all I want to do is play
baseball. I mean, I grew up playing
baseball, hockey, football. I always played at any sport I
could, but I also learned that'snot actually going to be my

(01:19:34):
career field because. Unfortunately.
Yeah, I wasn't that good. Wasn't that big like.
So at some point my dad sat me down and said, hey, it's
probably I'm going to say my junior in high school.
He's like, what do you really want to do with your life?
Because this might not work out playing baseball.
I'm like, I don't know. And lucky enough to have some

(01:19:56):
people in my life that were on the fire service and, and I just
remember, I just not that I had any interest in at that time.
I didn't realize it, but when I'd be sitting around talking to
my friend's parents and I, I mean, I was just captivated.
I always, always asking questions about like, Hey, what,
what is, what's it like? Tell me, tell me about your job.
Tell me about this. And then after my dad said, Hey,

(01:20:19):
what are you going to, what's your plan in life?
I was like. What actually interests me and I
there's guys on the job who've told me it was either this or
I'd probably be a mechanic, which is probably a fair answer.
And yeah, so at some point I realized I don't want to get a
real job, so let's go do a job that's a bunch of grown men
having fun and men and women so.Yeah, I love it.

(01:20:43):
I agree 100%. Perfect.
All right, So in your, in your professional fire service
career, who's been the most influential person for you so
far? I got to give 2.
I got to give 211. Tim Wayne, he's deputy chief at
Goodyear Fire Department. He has been a a mentor of mine

(01:21:03):
and a great friend of mine for years.
And early in my career, he knew I was a dumb kid and he
supported that. And when I say supported that,
he would put me in positions to make me grow up.
Even even in stuff that I'm looking, I'm like, why?
Why are you making me do this? Like I don't belong.

(01:21:25):
I shouldn't talk to the news forthis or whatever, whatever it
could be. He's like because you need to
learn. He wanted to make you
uncomfortable. Yes, he was very good at that.
To make you better. Yes, but he is still a guy I
call when I have questions. When I got 4, four young kids.

(01:21:45):
So I don't have a lot of free time in life, but we still try
and get together, grab a beer, talk, talk about life.
He knows my family, he knows my kids.
He's done dinner like he's he's just been always a a great part
of my fire service life and which became a great part of my
life. The second person I'm going to

(01:22:06):
talk about is Chris Slayer. Chris is a Battalion Chief for
the Mesa Fire Department. And he loved this the first time
I told him, so I was a new, I was a captain in the training
cat training Academy Academy as a company training captain.
So teaching all our current firefighters.
There was information of this class going on about hose

(01:22:30):
management. And so myself and my
counterpart, we were like, all right, let's go check this out.
And it's a three day class, three day class of pulling hose,
flowing water. And the actual words that I had
driving in the car, I looked at,looked at my partner and I said,
Dan, I'm as open minded as the next guy, but I feel like we're

(01:22:53):
about to waste 3 days of our life.
Wow, OK. Yeah, that that was.
Pre taking the class. Pre taking the class, I didn't
know much about the class, I didn't know anything about him.
And I sat down in this class in the first hour.
I was blown away because I, I feel like in that point in my

(01:23:14):
career, everything I'd learned, I've been so focused internally
of our department in our region and it, and that's what I say is
we don't know what we don't know.
I was, I literally sat in that class.
I had, I had 1313 years, 14 years on the job, somewhere in

(01:23:35):
that range. And I felt like I was the worst
firefighter to ever come along because there was so much
information I was getting thrownat me that I just never knew.
And and it was awesome. I mean, it was awesome.
So went through the class, one of the best classes I've ever
taken. Well, I get out of the training

(01:23:56):
Academy. I go back to my truck next year,
I bring my crew. I'm like, hey, this class is
going to kick my butt. It's going to be hot, it's going
to be wet. We're going to work and we're
going to work and we're going towork, but we're going together.
So we go and they Remember Me. The guys were awesome.
The instructors were awesome. Chris was awesome.

(01:24:17):
So we I bring my crew and he right away, he's like, you're
back. I said yeah, I got, I got.
These are my guys. I got more to learn.
Yeah, I got more to learn. We got to learn it together and
then, you know, go on about it, do all those things the
following year, Hey, I got some new guys on my crew.
We're back and I walk in. He's like, what are you doing,

(01:24:39):
Dave? Yeah, he's like, you're back
again. I'm like, yeah, I got new guys.
We're going to keep going. We're going to, we're like,
we're going to keep learning. And it's funny because it was,
it was a relationship that him and I grew over time of, of just
that passion. I think he, I wouldn't say I
was, I was very much passionate about my job prior to going to

(01:25:00):
that class, but he just lit he he put a fan on that, on that
fire and he stoked that thing somuch.
And yeah, I mean, the cool thingis the amount of times I've been
back to that class and he's opened up the doors to going to
Aaron Fields class, Brian Brush's class, all these other
things that I didn't even know prior to meeting him.

(01:25:21):
That was even I didn't get outside of this region because
my organization, we didn't really talk about that much at
that point in my career. So it was just a, the lesson I
learned and then over that time,Chris and I became friends.
I then the other side of it. Now I get to teach on the class,

(01:25:44):
teach other classes with him. him and I only live a couple
miles apart. So we get to spend a lot of, I
mean a lot of time talking shop talking stuff.
So he's just been a great influence into my fire service
career, become a great friend ofmine and just really help me
drive to truly the the another part of that fire service me

(01:26:06):
that I want to be. So yeah, Tim, Wayne, Chris
Slayer, two people I want to be where I am today.
I mean, there's a million other people that are with the reasons
why I'm here today, but in strictly in the fire service, I
feel like those two people helped guide my path to where I
sit here talking about this today.
Beautiful. All right.

(01:26:27):
Third question. So favorite fire department
tradition? Oh, that's an easy one.
OK, kitchen table all. Right, it's a popular.
One, so I say the kitchen table it's so when I first started
fire service, we didn't not everybody had cell phones.
I mean, most people had cell phones, but it wasn't it wasn't
like it was. Now it's everybody's

(01:26:49):
smartphones, everybody's on the phones all the time.
That kitchen table is that is, Imean that is, that is, it is
sacred ground right there and that it needs to remain that and
doing dinners together. That tradition is so valuable
and making dinner, sitting down,cleaning up all that stuff,

(01:27:10):
sitting on the table, no phones,just talking with the boys about
anything and everything. That is our relief.
That is how we learn. That is how we get to know each
other's families, get to know each other and grow from that.
And I mean, if I'll, I'll say this is, I don't believe a cell
phone should be at the table unless it has a direct point to

(01:27:31):
the conversation that's going on.
And my old station, I, I got tired of it because I sat at
dinner one day, watched everybody on, on phones and I
got pissed. I'm like, hey, at starting the
next shift I said no more phonesat the dinner table.
And I made a point. I'm like, this is about family
time, about us getting together and it was awesome.

(01:27:51):
So my phone sitting about four feet away from me, that station
has a little elevated area. My phone goes off not 2 minutes
after I say this. Nice, so you're the.
Guy, it's my wife calling. You can't answer.
And babe, if you listen to this,I love you.
So she's calling and they are just waiting, watching.
What are you going to do? Like, pick it up.

(01:28:12):
Come on, we we heard you go on your rant about how important
this is. And like I said, babe, I love
you. If you listen to this.
I had to quiet it, silence it, you know, flip it over so you
can't see. And we continued on.
And I feel dinner's got, if you don't get a call dinner, you
should be at that table for at least an hour at a minimum.

(01:28:34):
And I know you've heard me say it.
When we have a younger guy there, they're motivated.
They want to, they want to be the first one done.
They want to start clean. And they're, they're doing their
job. And I'm very quick to tell them,
no, you sit down because we're all we're team players.
When one person gets up and starts cleaning, we all get up
and it, it, it ends it, it's never the same to go back, sit

(01:28:56):
down. We just don't have that same
dinner feel on The Dirty plate sitting in front of us just
talking shop, talking about whatever, talk about things that
have nothing to do with what we do.
But that's what that is. That's our sacred ground.
That is where we learned. That is where we vent.
That is where we, we, we bond and grow as that family.
So that is my favorite traditionin the fire service and God, I

(01:29:16):
never want to see you leave. You know, it's, it's one of my
favorites too. And I've, I've, I've said it and
I'll, I'll say it for the rest of my career.
Like I feel bad for crews that don't cook together, don't get
together because they don't, they really don't know what
they're missing, you know, But all right, so last question, my
favorite question of the four for this season, right.
So if you could snap your fingerand change one thing in the fire

(01:29:37):
service, what would it be? But more importantly, why?
So I got, I got to say, the passion for training.
OK, I have one. I've also been very bluntly
told. So you want to increase the.
I want to increase the passion. Gotcha.
So if we were to snap your fingers and get rid of rid of
something, what would you get rid of?
The licency? The negative attitude.

(01:29:59):
The negative attitude, the mutts.
The mutts. Perfect.
Talk to me, yeah. So I'm going to break down, I'm
going to break down this. When I say the fire, fire
department, I believe we are allwe can.
We can implant me into any otherorganization.
People would be like, oh, hey, that's that guy, That's this
guy. Like we're all the same.
I mean, we're all got our own independence, but we are, we all

(01:30:20):
have that guy in our department,this guy.
And when we break down organization, I believe we have
30% of our organization is motivated.
They are. You can, you can tell them to
stop. You can tell them nobody cares
of the you spending the extra time going out in the Bay and
working on those skills by yourself, 30%, they're not going
to stop. They're going to keep going.

(01:30:40):
They are. They are motivated.
They are ready to go. We got 30% on the opposite end
of that spectrum. They are living in the recliner.
They learned it in the Academy and they are the best
firefighter because they learnedin the Academy and they are
going to try and tear you down to keep them at that same level,
whatever that may be. They're the naysayer.

(01:31:00):
They're the, they're the mutts. They, they, they don't have that
drive. They don't have that passion.
And a lot of times it might justneed to get sparked, but in the
middle of that. So we got 30% positive, 30%
negative in the middle is at 40%.
Those are the ones, those are the important ones because
you're not going to change the 30% positive, they're going to

(01:31:21):
keep going. The 30% negative I can give them
AI can give them $1000 a day raise and they wish it was 1500
it. So it is what it is.
But the people in the middle, they're going to float back and
forth. So now it's whatever that
attitude is in that Firehouse, that culture in that Firehouse
lives and dies by them. So the downfall of the, of the

(01:31:44):
negative is they're loud. They they are loud and they're
not afraid to be loud. The positive, that 30% positive,
we need to be just as loud. We got to be louder because we
need to make sure that we understand it's OK to care.
It's OK to want to be better. And those that 40% in the

(01:32:06):
middle, they're going to come right to you like, hey, what are
you doing in the Bay? That's kind of cool.
What are you teach me that they're going to they're going
to float with whatever is the the going going rate that.
Atmosphere that day. Yeah, yeah.
If they hang out in that negative atmosphere, they'll be
like, cool man, I don't care either.
I'm going to sit on the recliner.
But if we keep that positive attitude and art, that

(01:32:29):
positivity is louder than that negative.
Now we now have 70%. They're in that positive, which
now if we think a big picture that -30% they're the outcast.
They're the, they're the, they're the outlier that is
sitting there by themselves on that island like, well, man, I
thought this job sucked. Why does everybody else love it?
And that they're going to slowlyturn.

(01:32:51):
So if we can take that middle 40%, we can now get to that
bottom 30%. Because when, when nobody wants
to listen to them complain, theymight actually come out in the
Bay and be like, hey, all right,you guys, you guys all keep
coming in and laughing and having fun.
You're hot, you're tired, you'resweaty, but you look like you're
loving it. What are you doing?

(01:33:13):
Why don't you come out with? Us.
Tell me more. Yeah, yeah.
Tell me. And, and, and this is a thing
I'm constantly learning of when you, when you have the opposite
and we can't, we can't attack the negative when you're the
positive, you can't attack the negative because you, whatever
you say, if you go too far, you might shut them out.
They're never coming back. So it's got to be like, hey,

(01:33:34):
it's that doors always got to beopen.
Like, hey, man, if you don't like it, that's cool.
I'm going to go do this. If you want to come, come and
hopefully they come maybe one day may may not be today.
We don't know what other things are going on with them.
But if that we take that 30% gain, that middle 40, we got 70%
in there. Hopefully we can bring them
along. And if they know that door still

(01:33:55):
open, hopefully they come through that door.
And now we we're just making that whole culture stronger,
better motivated, having fun. And I mean, we get got the
greatest job in the world. We get we get paid very well.
We should go out, learn our craft, practice our craft, and
be ready when the bells go off. When the bells go off, it's time
to get to work. In between that, we should be

(01:34:17):
focused on making ourselves better some way, shape or form.
Well, Dave, that's it brother. Like we sat down here.
I love it. So this is season 1, episode 2,
right? And we all decide that this is
going to be a 30 to 35 minutes at Max rate.
We're we're at that plus an hour, right?
So, but it's good because it's all good information.

(01:34:39):
We could sit down here for 24 hours and talk and nobody would
want to ever listen to us and that's OK.
But so with that said, again, thank you, my brother.
Thank you so much for coming out, spending your time talking.
I know we barely brush the surface, right.
A little shameless plug here. You know, just remember
everything we're talking about right now.
We talk about mastering the craft and and be in that

(01:35:00):
positive role model, right? This is Copper State Fools
sponsors this podcast. That's what Copper State Fools
is all about. So you can find us on Instagram
and Facebook. Every Friday we do training
minutes. This podcast will be published
bi weekly off of Copper State Fools.
If you learn one thing, it's successful.
If you ever want to come to the meeting, reach out to us via

(01:35:22):
e-mail or social media and we'rehappy to oblige.
So it's all about, if you're in the Valley, please seek us out.
But if you're anywhere else in the country, I guarantee you
have a fool's chapter somewhere close to you.
So reach out to them. They're all good dudes.
And they're just about making being a fireman cool again and
more importantly, just masteringthat craft and getting better

(01:35:44):
and then and teaching each other.
So again, Dave, thank you so much for coming out here.
I appreciate. You thanks.
For having me and yeah, you, youguys have a great night and we
will catch you on the next episode.
Have a good one. Thanks for joining us.
Always remember, the most important grab you'll make in
your fire service career is saving a complacent firefighter

(01:36:08):
from themselves. Catch you next episode.