Leadership, Training, and Team Culture in the Fire Service

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Searchable space. So a lot of people, you know, do
do the whole survivability profile thing, which I am 100%
against because I think that's completely wrong.
Like you can't like, like, I just don't think we can look at
a building and be like, yeah, man, somebody's alive in there.
Like you have no freaking idea what's going on there.
And you see people that survive structure fires that you pulled

(00:21):
up and you're like, dude, I didn't see one inch of building
that wasn't covered in a fire. Like how are they alive versus
going to, you know, a, a fire where it's like a, a room of
contents fire and somebody's down the hall and, and they're
incapacitated and they don't make it out, right.
So like everybody's different because of that.
And so we can't, we can't profile anybody based on that.

(00:41):
But what we can profile is can we search it?
And to me that's, hey, man, can I occupy the space with my, my
training, my experience and my PPE?
And if I have those three thingsin in place, then I'm going to
assess my risk properly and I'm going to make a good decision.
Welcome everybody. Copper State Fireman Podcast.

(01:04):
It's podcasters for firemen burning the ships of
complacency, laziness and excuses.
We're promoting love and passionfor the job, encouraging
eagerness and mastering the craft of the fire service.
Remember, the information, opinion, values, recommendation
and ideas are the host and the individuals of this podcast and

(01:26):
are not affiliated or endorsed by the fire department's
organization or companies the individuals work for.
This podcast is for general information use only.
Brought to you by the Copper State Fools and sponsored by
Solid Foundation Team, LLC. Let's go.

(01:47):
All right, everybody, welcome back.
I have the privilege to sit downwith Noah Katz.
He's got 12 years in the American Fire Service.
Current rank is he's a captain. He's proud of the fact that he's
been assigned to the busiest stations his entire career.
He's also been a he's a Local 493 Union Executive board member
for nine years, including being the director of training chair

(02:08):
for Phoenix Firefighters Symposium, adjunct instructor at
Paradise Valley Community College for the Fire 1 and 2
program. He has designed and implemented
department wide training for over 1800 members on forcible
entry, hoseign management, orderapplication and search
techniques. He is also the number one first

(02:29):
graduate in the state of Arizonafrom the Georgia Smoke Divers.
He's been a National International instructor and
he's a founder and co-owner of Priority Fire Training.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much.
Welcome Captain Noah Katz. So Cap Katz, thank you so much
for being on the show. Brother, how are you doing
tonight? I'm good.
Thank you, Steve. Absolutely honored to be having

(02:51):
a conversation with you and looking forward to diving into
it and seeing where, seeing where it goes.
Absolutely. So so we're down sitting down
tonight. So I really want to get into
you. I mean, you've been did your
intro, so you've been instructing around the world,
right. You have a very good and amazing
leadership techniques and and really a mentality behind it.
So let's just start there. So let's start on your

(03:13):
leadership. So you're captain in the
American fire service now, right?
So arguably what a lot of guys will say the most influential
position in the fire service, that right front seat.
So with that responsibility, howdo you how do you take your
leadership modalities or your ideology?
Just just walk the audience through what you believe is a

(03:34):
good suppression officer leadership style.
Yeah, absolutely, man. I think it's a, it's a great
question. And obviously I think a lot of
leadership in the fire service is molded by how you came up.
You know, some of the leaders that you were around when you
got on the job through the Academy, your art, your, your
recruit training officers, maybethey were your probationary

(03:55):
captains. And that's certainly true for
me. I had a a captain who I worked
for my second rotation when I was on probation and, and kind
of paved that path for me because when I arrived there, he
was immediately like, hey, man, this is what happens here.
We are going to come in early. We're going to clean the trucks.
We're going to we're going to eat breakfast together.

(04:16):
We're going to go train, we're going to cook both meals.
We're going to work out togetherin the afternoon.
We're going to play cards at night and we're going to run
calls. And that is what's going to
happen every single day here. And so for me, like that really
set the stage to to kind of be like, hey, man, like this is
just how it should be. You know, and I and I, and I
think, you know, unfortunately, a lot of times in the, in the
fire service people don't look at things like that.

(04:38):
They, they think that, you know,calls are a burden to them.
There might be, you know, some other ideas of, of what's more
important. Like, hey, man, if we don't eat
at 12:00 and 6:00, then, you know, something's wrong with
this station. It's like, dude, I, I, I
personally don't, don't care when we eat.
And so that's just not a thing to me.
It's like, hey, man, you have toset expectations for your crew

(04:58):
and you have to set expectationsfor yourself.
And, and I think those are not you rolling with an iron fist.
I think those are a lot of timesexpectations that need to be set
and, and discussed and agreed upon.
And so, you know, that's kind oftransitioned over time or grown
over time. It's, it's certainly for me and
my leadership style. You know, when I, when I first
became captain, I, I was fortunate to be assigned to

(05:21):
company right away. Was a little bit of a
transitional time there that the, the driver there had been
there for a couple years. The, the backseat firefighter
had been there about a month or so before me with a probationary
firefighter there. And we have two guys on, on the,
the rescue there on the ambulance.
So, and so it's kind of a transitional period as far as
guys coming and going there. So it was an opportunity to
really set some, some ground rules for what I wanted it to

(05:43):
be. And so we sat down and we kind
of discussed like, hey, man, like what are things that are
important to us and why are these things important?
And I always go back to that because I think a lot of times
in leadership, people are very quick to say, well, hey, man,
you know, I outrank you. Or hey, I'm teaching this class
or hey, you, you're asking me for advice.
Well, I'm going to tell you how it should be instead of really

(06:04):
discussing why we should be doing these things or involving
everybody in those things. And so, so to me, you know, it's
not just wrong with iron pits, you have to involve people.
And and So what I found is that by setting these expectations at
the station really made everybody included.
But then it it creates this buy in and when people are bought

(06:24):
into an idea, like they will do anything to make it make it
possible. And that's really where the
where the magic happens at the fire Firehouse because people
are bought into to the mission. Mission is always the most
important thing. So when we talk about what are
the things that are important, you know, I'd always start with
things that are important to me.And that's, you know, at the
station. And even when I'm teaching, I
always, I always try to bring personal examples into the

(06:45):
things that we're discussing or that we're teaching because I
think people can kind of relate to that stuff and they need to
see that you're human too. Crew continuity and things like
that. Obviously we're not talking
about who's grabbing the irons, who's grabbing the knobs, stuff
like that. But So what are your
expectations? What's those super important
things to you? Well, quite honestly, man, I
mean, I, I guess I can break it down like this pretty pretty

(07:06):
easily. It's like I have the same
expectation for everyone on my crew, including myself.
And I think that's really important is you can't have
different expectations for different people, right?
The expectation needs to be the same across the board.
And the only really to me, you know, the way that we set
expectations is that we set metrics for expectations because

(07:27):
to say like, hey, man, I want you to have a good attitude
every day. Well, that's kind of like an
objective response, right? Like maybe one day I'm like,
yeah, Steve, you got a great attitude.
Maybe they maybe the next day something's a little bit off
with you and you think you have a good attitude, but I don't
think so. And so it's really hard to have
metrics like that, right. So what we sat down and did as a
crew is we set metrics for for skills.

(07:50):
And I'm like, hey man, we focus around skills because the the
skill development and the task level performance on the fire
ground ultimately is the most important thing.
So yeah, man, you might be having a bad day and that's OK,
man. We're there to pick you up when
you need it, right? And everybody's going to have a,
a, a day that they're a little bit off.
But if we consistently focus on the metrics of what we deem

(08:13):
important, then I think then everybody went.
And so I can tell you some of those metrics.
So, so, so first and foremost, obviously you know where we work
and, and where you work. I think a lot of guys get off
the truck massed up, but I stillwanted to to set a metric for
that. So the metric, so that first
metric for us is that you shouldbe able to mask up with your
gloves on in 20 seconds or less.Oh, that's a good one.

(08:35):
And that's, and that's somethingthat that takes time, right, to
learn that that trick, that trade.
So, right. And so and so when we set that
metric that all of a sudden became a, a, a thing for our
crew to do every single shift. It might be in the morning,
might be in the morning when you're checking your bottle off,
could be in the afternoon beforeyou do a workout.
There's been days where we've been busy and it's been nine,

(08:58):
9:30 at night and guys are like,hey, man, we haven't done any,
let's get it in, right. But now you're creating crew
continuity, you're creating conversation and you're setting
a metric and you're, and you're,you're doing that with some real
friendly competition, right? Because guys, because I'll tell
you, man, it's like the other day, you know, it's like a guy's
got 12 seconds on his mask up time and all of a sudden a guy's
guy's watching him. He's like, I'm going to beat

(09:19):
you. And what's he, what does he do?
What does he do? He gets in 11 seconds and you're
like awesome dude. Like dude, that is, that is so
awesome. Like that's how it should be.
So, so that's a metric for us. Another metric for us is, is
when we pull up on on a on a structure fire that the first
line off the truck should be pulled off the truck at the
door, laid out, attack, oversupply charged, ready to

(09:42):
make entry, gloved up, masked up, ready to roll in 60 seconds
or less. All right.
And that's from air brakehead. Air brake hit 60 seconds or
less, we're making entry into the structure, ready to make it
entrance into the structure witha charge hand line.
Nice, that's great and it's it'scrazy too, because you had said
it right before that too. You're like, you know, then they
become competitive, then it getsgreat.

(10:03):
That's like one of the best things about the freaking fire
service is we are type A personalities, right?
We are competitive individuals. So when you ignite that fire
within us, it's like you can almost take the guy that's that,
you know, maybe a low performer to just teetering that mediocre
and obviously not the stud, right?
But you can almost transition them into being a competent or

(10:23):
mediocre on his skill level, probably rapidly, just because
he doesn't want to be embarrassed in front of his
friends or he wants to beat their times, right?
Absolutely, man, absolutely. And and at the end of the day,
man, like, you know, nobody wants to be mediocre.
And especially, especially when they're around high performers,
then they're like, all right, what do I have to do to get

(10:43):
there? And what's interesting is
obviously in the system that I work in, it's, it's pretty
transient. We have a lot of guys that float
in and out of the station, guys working all the time, this kind
of stuff. And so when they see this stuff
happening at the station, they're very intrigued by it.
And so, you know, I had, I had the other day, we're at work and
we had, I had two guys that are off my, my two guys in the back

(11:05):
seat are off. And so I have two guys over
there for the, for the day who I've never worked with either
one of those guys on fire truck.And, and so we, we did some of
the stuff in the afternoon, we did the mask up.
We did a, a workout in gear where I set some metrics for the
workout. And both of those guys were
like, hey, man, when I go back to my regular station, like I'm

(11:27):
taking this with me. And I was like, that's exactly
what this is for, man. That's exactly what it's for.
That is the, that is the best thing in the world.
And it's, it's funny because I was just listening to like
literally I think earlier today on another fire department
podcast, but it was, it was a couple episodes ago off the, the
scrap great podcast, by the way.But they had a operations chief

(11:50):
from the city of Fairfax, I believe.
And he said something along the lines of like, when it came down
that, that, that competition, that's like, that's what that's
what gets going. And then it's like, then you get
these guys that transition into your station of the transient
firehouses, right? And then they take that back
with them and it's you've accomplished something because
you don't care. Like you personally do not care

(12:13):
who gets credit for that, right?And it's like he had basically
mentioned like, as soon as you don't give a fuck about who gets
credit, you can accomplish a lotbecause it's the egos of the
fire service. That is what slows us down,
right? And it's so they come in and
they bring it back. And I guarantee you before they
leave, you're like, oh, hey, hey, by the way, don't forget to
tell those guys who showed you how to do that, right?

(12:33):
I guarantee that doesn't come out of.
Your mouth, dude, absolutely not.
I mean, and that's the thing. It's like, I mean, I love that
that you're saying that about ego, because to me, I mean,
that's the biggest killer in thefire service.
And you know, especially, you know, we, we have a lot of guys
on my department that are in that 5 to 8 year range right
now. And to me, to me, like that's

(12:54):
the most dangerous place to be, right?
Because those guys are they knowenough to, to have some skill,
but but they also don't know enough to be truly masters of
their craft, right? And so like what they think that
they do. So it's like in that complacency
stage of like, and, and, and as these younger guys are coming
behind them, they're kind of looking at them like, Oh, well,
you know, I don't need to train.I don't need to pull hose

(13:17):
because you're pulling hose and I'm going to tell you what to
do. But then like you're watching
this thing happen and you're like, dude, like I know that you
can't pull hose as good as that that guy who just got off
probation. So like, let's, everybody should
be doing it. So, and, and, and you know
which, which for me, man, that'sall about leading by example.
And so that's my leadership style is to lead by example.

(13:38):
I think that if you are a leaderin the American fire service,
you 100% need to lead by example.
And that starts in training. When you're training, you need
to have your gear on and be doing whatever it is that
everybody else is doing. And, and it, and because I think
it gets confused, right? Leading by example doesn't mean
that you're the best at everything.
And I think people are afraid sometimes lead by example

(13:59):
because they think that they have to be the true expert, the
subject matter expert in, in whatever it is that's happening.
And you don't, man, it's OK to be vulnerable.
It's OK to to not be the best atsomething.
It's OK to say to a younger firefighter or, or a firefighter
that's not the same rank as you is to say, hey man, like I know
you're good at that. Like can you show me that?

(14:20):
Can you help me improve this? Let's talk about this.
Why do you do things the way that you're doing?
Because I was taught this way. You tell me why you're doing it
that way. And it's.
Huge for buy in like you had mentioned that earlier like how
do you get by and I think you just answered that question
right. Dude, exactly, man.
And I'll tell you so at my station, you know, we, we, we

(14:41):
get a new probationary firefighter every three months.
So I've been a captain there forabout 3 years, maybe a little
more, a little more than three years now.
So consistently every three months for three years, I've had
a new firefighter in my back seat.
Some of those guys are day one out of out of the Academy, some
of them on six months, some of them are on their, their nine
months. So somewhere in that range,

(15:03):
right? But but no matter who it is, day
one for every single one of those guys is exactly the same.
And what we do is we sit down inthe morning, we drink coffee, we
eat breakfast together. We set expectations for them as
a crew. We talk about some of the stuff,
the mask of times. It's the, the, you know, the
water to door times, the force of entry time that that they're

(15:24):
expected to have, the search time that they're expected to
have, right, that stuff. But then we go out and we train
and the thing that we train on is we we take plugs.
So we hook up the hydrants the first day.
And when we do that, every single person in the Firehouse
does it and we keep it for time,right?
So now it's a friendly competition, right?
But every single person, including me, I'm the captain

(15:47):
least likely ever to, to hook upto a hydra in the field, right?
I mean, like, let's be, let's behonest, not going to be me.
So, so I do it, my engineer doesit, every firefighter does it,
the probationary guy does it. And you know, we have fun with
that. We make a little competition out
of it and the the worst time ends up buying, you know, sodas
for everybody afterwards at, at Circle K or QT or whatever.
But, but The thing is, the pointof that is I want my newest

(16:11):
members to know that me, Noah Katz is a captain.
I am not better than anybody else, right?
And and that is a very, very important lesson to to learn and
to set early in somebody's career.
Hey, man, you're captain, you'reengineer, you're firefighter.
Hey, we are not above you. We have more time than you.
That doesn't mean we're above you.
And so I think that that it kindof breaks down some of those

(16:33):
barriers in the beginning because people need to
understand that you're approachable.
And then they also need to understand that you have been in
their shoes. And hey, man, at the end of the
day, we're all firefighters and we all should be working to
become masters of our craft. So, so that kind of that kind of
sets the tone for for how we go about our each month, each three
month period with with our newest firefighters.

(16:55):
I got, well, it's, it sounds like you don't be.
So it's kind of kind of ask you a question when it came down to
those expectations being the same for every single person.
And you kind of already answeredit because I was going to ask
you, well, what about when thosebooters or probees or rookies,
whatever you guys call them in your department, right?
How do you set those expectations?
If you're saying, hey, everyone's got the same standard

(17:17):
to hit, but you, you basically just answered it.
And what's it? What's crazy is, is that I love
the, I love the fact that like, as soon as you're like, OK,
we're gonna go grab a plug. Literally everyone's out there
grabbing, trying to beat each other's time.
We did one day the, the battalion came by.
I'll even know what sparked it. But he's like, hey, you guys
want to run like just this superfun drill that, you know,

(17:38):
obviously you saw it somewhere and we're like, yeah, boss, what
do you want to do? Right?
He's like, I don't know, It's just there's something it's
called like a one man drill. And basically it is you drive
the engine, right? You grab you, you hit the air
brake, you run out, you grab theplug, you get back in, right?
You, you get it, you drop the first coupling and then you come
out, you make all your connections, you pull it quick
attack. I mean the whole thing from

(17:59):
infancy to to termination, right?
Everything we do on the fireground, but with one guy and
he's like, I want every single one of you guys to go through it
and he's timing us. It's like, OK.
And we all went through and it was funny.
Like literally from the backs ofthe fireman to the engineer to
the captain. And I think his aide even did it
once because we were just havingso much fun just messing around

(18:19):
with this drill. And the funniest thing about it
is the captain got the quickest time and he was the most likely.
And we had already like made bets prior to like, well, the,
the engineer's going to be the best, you know, because he's
right, right? It's just, but it was just
funny, like how it worked out and ended up, it is impromptu
drill, but it was, it was fun for everybody, you know?

(18:40):
Dude, I mean, training should befun, right?
I mean, and that's the other thing about it is I think
sometimes think people think that training is a task.
And I'm like, dude, training should be fun, right?
Like, like this is your job. Like you should be passionate
about it. Like there is going to be a time
where you're going to train on something that you don't like,
you know, and, and that's OK. You have to understand how that
fits into the process. But but dude, training should be

(19:01):
fun. And, and as you're saying that
to me, like I'm kind of thinkingabout how, you know, we run
things and, and how I see thingsfrom my perspective.
But one thing that we always talk about in training is, is
that, and I, and I stole this from somebody else and I, and I
can't remember who it is, but essentially there's a
psychologist who who worked withsome sports teams and they came
up with this thing, the saying that basically a skill is not a

(19:24):
skill unless you can perform it under pressure.
Oh. That's good.
And so to me it's like breakdownwhat we do, right?
Like anybody can force a door indaylight when nobody yelling at
them, right? Anybody can pull a line under a
minute when there's no when there, there's no consequences
to that, right? Anybody can perform a search in,

(19:47):
you know, three different rooms when there's no smoke and
there's no heat, right? So put consequences to these
things and now all of a sudden you put pressure on people and
that that skill really has to bea skill or else they're not
going to be able to achieve it. So the fact that you're.
Taking, you know, plugs and it'sfor time and people are razzing
you as you do it. That's pressure, right?

(20:08):
And so now you're increasing theskill set, right?
So for you, for that drill you're talking about, hey man,
like you guys are making wagers on who's going to be the best.
Well, that's pressure. So now when those guys are
performing, it's like you're like, hey man, I don't want to
be the worst one. So you're pressuring yourself.
So now you really are developingyour skills and showcasing your
skills and doing that. And that is true training.

(20:29):
So I'm, I'm all about that stuff, man.
I think that stuff is awesome. Yeah, it, like I said, it's,
it's amazing. I like the fact that you said
pressure and you were referring to something that I just
finished talking about that was enjoyable and a good time.
Because I also believe people think that word is a dirty word,
like pressure is a negative feeling.
It's it's not negative, it's a motivation.
I I don't know if you feel the same way.

(20:51):
I do, 100%. I do.
I mean, I think that that pressure, pressure is awesome,
man, because and if you don't train with pressure and you
don't talk about pressure or howpeople respond to pressure and
kind of look at at human behavior when it comes to to to
pressure, like that's you're doing a disservice, right?
Especially in in the world that we work in.

(21:11):
You think about it, it's like, think about the worst, very
worst thing that could happen oryou or you could arrive to.
And you know, man, it's like when when I was, I wasn't even
to make captain. I was, I was studying to be a
captain. I was moved up at the station.
I worked at the time and you know, I hadn't been in command
of a fire yet. And and as you know, it's like
you, man, you just want to get that first fire under your belt

(21:33):
and be like, Hey, man, I, I knowI can do that, right.
And so, so we kicked out the fire and middle of the night and
we turned the corner on station and you can see, I mean, you
could see this column like it's about a mile away from the
station. We can see it.
And I'm like, dude, this, this thing is rocking.
It's an 800 foot leg into this, into this complex.

(21:54):
And I'm like, yeah, we're not laying in, it's too far, you
know, so multi company station. So we knew we had water coming,
but now all of a sudden the alarm room is clearing us and
they're like, hey, we're we got the family on the phone.
There's a 14 year old girl trapped in there.
Oh shit, there goes rescue profile through the roof now,
right? Right, right.
So you're like, OK, copy that. Right.

(22:15):
So now we're pulling up and dude, it's like all you can see
is fire. And then you got mom and dad in
the front like legitimately screaming, Hey, my baby's in
there, my baby's in there, do something.
And so like when you think aboutworst case scenarios, it's like,
dude, like it doesn't get any any more real than that.
And it, and if, if people were to crumble under that pressure,

(22:36):
like we are not doing what we'resupposed to be doing at all.
But the fact is, because guys are trained up, guys are our
mission driven, they're focused on their tasks, they have
trained under pressure, and they've continued to develop
their skill sets and continue totry to master their craft
because all those things LED up to that.
Everything happened the way thatit should.

(22:56):
And unfortunately for that younglady, she did not survive that.
But I feel like we did everything to the best of our
ability and we gave her the bestchance possible.
And that's and that's all we can.
That's all we can do, right? That's all we that's all we can
do. Yeah, we can.
Yeah, obviously ideally we can only make things better.

(23:17):
So that's that's that goal behind it.
So with that, you know, and you said it so like the pressure and
I believe, again, my personal opinion, I believe with the
generation coming up and I don'teven blame them, I blame us to
for adapting or society to adapting or whatever the case
might be. We have eliminated a lot of the

(23:39):
the pressure from people's lives.
And then we get them. We get these really good people
that want to become firemen, right?
And they go through an Academy. And if we don't apply a lot of
pressure, right? In the Academy setting, when I
see pressure, I'm talking mostlyabout like volume and attitude.
And what I mean by that is like,we fail this generation so far,

(24:03):
right? And we're trying to correct this
now on how we talk to them. So, and I've noticed this, I'm
curious on what you feel too. Probably within the last five
years in the American Fire service, right?
We'll get these brand new guys. They have a great attitude,
they're ready to work, they're go getters, they want to learn
everything. And then as soon as our boots
hit the ground and I have to make a harsh command decision,

(24:26):
right? There's no more pleases, thank
yous and everything else. It is a direct fucking order at
a high volume. And I want you to repeat it back
to me so I make sure you understand, right?
And I need you to do it right the fuck now.
But instead of doing exactly what I expect to happen is they
repeat back to me, right? They do that job in timely
manner, then come back to me, right?
They stop and freeze because allof a sudden they're like, shit,

(24:50):
Steve's mad at me. And I'm like, I am not mad, you
know, but it's like because of how we've, I even know if it's
society, whatever it is, I'm curious on what you feel it
might be. But it's we have, we've catered
to this nicer, you know, lifestyle all the way around the
United States, where then all ofa sudden we raise our voice and

(25:10):
it's like, this is a bad thing. It's like it's not a fucking bad
thing. I need you to do something right
now. And then you use the least
amount of words possible to do it right.
So you do you guys, you feel like you see that more in the
last couple years. And is that something you've
been facing? And then how do you kind of how
do you deal with that? Yeah.
A. 100% we, we see that. I, I feel that often, like I

(25:32):
said, I mean, especially becausewe get so many probationary
firefighters at my station, likeyou see and, and right every
three months and, and a lot of different ages of these guys
too, right? So I mean, I, I, I think I
don't, I don't want to say it's cultural and, or that it's, it's
the generation because I, I willtell you I have recently I had
a, a ration firefighter who is 1819 years old and this kid is a

(25:56):
complete stud. And I could have said anything
in any way to him and he'd be like, copy that and he'd just
you. Know.
Like like it like nothing, nothing fazed him, but I also
when you look a little bit dive a little bit deeper into that
you look at that guy's past, hisupbringing, some hardships that
he'd based early on in his life,who raised him, some things like

(26:20):
that. It kind of makes sense, right So
I I definitely agree. I think that the, the, the
upbringing is a little bit softer and like just speaking
for myself, right? Like I, I played sports my whole
life and I remember being like a8 year old kid and just getting
motherfucked up and down, right.And my mom getting get back in

(26:41):
the car from this from, from my coach and I'm getting in the car
and my mom is just like, I can'tbelieve he that that they talked
to you, you kids like that. And I'm just like, it's like,
dude, like I like, what are you talking about?
He talks to us that practice every day like that.
My mom's like what, you know, and it's like, I'm not saying
it's right, but I definitely think that that stuff is is not
where it was. So we definitely see that, you

(27:03):
know, and I don't know, man. I mean, I think I think so much
of that comes back to leadership, right?
Like, like, yes, things need to be done.
Things need to be urgent. I definitely think that part of
being a leader in the fire service is reading people,
understanding people's minds, how they work, what what pushes

(27:24):
their buttons, how to, what may motivate them or or demotivate
them. Because those are all things
that that at the end of the day,man, are incredibly important,
not only for civilian safety, which is our number one
objective, but also for firefighter safety.
Because it's like you think about your own safety and it's
like when you do rich rails, youdo some mayday stuff and then

(27:46):
all of a sudden you, you turn that pressure up, you darken it
down a little bit and it's like,man, like, dude, we've been
packaging firefighters every single day.
Like now all of a sudden we turnup the stakes a little bit and
you can't do it. Like dude, this isn't, this is a
fucking. Drill.
You know what I mean? So it's like, like, dude, like
what you have to understand. And, and again, like that was a

(28:06):
very, I think that was a, that'sa lesson that I had to learn as,
as, as a captain because I'm, I'm very much a go getter.
And like I said, I mean, my sports background and, and, and
come play sports at, at a, you know, the collegiate level and
stuff. It's like, dude, it's like when,
when somebody asks you to do it,like if they yell at you,
whatever it is, it's like, just do it.

(28:27):
And that may not be how it is, but I, I think the psychology of
how people work is very interesting.
And so I, I think I've definitely adjusted to some of
that stuff. But at the end of the day, man,
I think when you're talking about leadership principles and
how you combat some of that stuff, one thing I've always
been a huge fan of is is, you know, building those
relationships with people. Because I think people when they
really trust you and they, and they really get to, to see you,

(28:51):
all sides of you, then I think that that there is a chance that
maybe you can combat that and they understand their urgency.
But that goes back to signals expectations too, because if
they don't know what you're about or what the expectation is
for the crew, then it's like, well, how do they know that?
And I set that expectation for my crew very early on, right?
So we talked about, obviously, you know, in, in our system here

(29:15):
in, in, in the valley, there's 2628 cities that that operate
off volume to policies. And it's like, hey, man, like if
you just look at the tactical objectives for the fireground,
the number one tactical objectives is life safety.
And so, so when you ask a young firefighter, hey, man, what does
that mean to you? Like, let's be honest, like most
of the time they don't know and that's OK.

(29:36):
I'm not saying that they should know, but it is our job to
explain to them what that means and how do we achieve that
tactical objective? What are the things, what are
the metrics with that? And, and so one thing that I, I
talk about when I teach and I certainly, you know, talk about
this with my crew and, and the young firefighters I have is
when we start talking about search.

(29:57):
And, and specifically when you talk about primary all clear,
you ask a young firefighter, Hey, man, when is, when do you
call a primary all clear? And a lot of these guys are
like, yeah, Skip, I've caught it's primary clear when, when we
searched all the rooms or yeah, when, when, when we think that
we, there's nobody in there or whatever they're, you know, they

(30:20):
have to say about that. And I and I just say them, hey
man, a primary all clear is complete when you can live with
the results. That's because that's not.
That's a good way to drop it down because you're right.
If you miss something on that primary and you find it later,
like we all know the ones I have, right?
It's, that's a fucking horrible feeling, you know?

(30:42):
It's it's man, I don't even giveme goosebumps here talking about
it, but it's like, yeah, man, I,I, I, I totally feel, you know,
believe that it is our job as leaders in the fire service to
empower your members to make independent decisions.
And I fully trust the people that work for me.

(31:03):
And I, I, I train them to a highlevel, but I tell them, hey,
man, I trust you, right? Give them that empowerment.
I trust you when I tell you I need you to go get me a, a
search of that, that room or that hallway or that living room
or whatever it is. And you come back to me, say,
hey, skip all clear. Like, dude, like you 100% better
be sure. Yeah, right.

(31:26):
So, yeah, man, I, I, I think empowering some, setting those
expectations, empowering your people and then training them to
that standard and not expecting them to be perfect from the very
beginning. I think those are all things
that kind of create a formula toto overcoming some of those
those differences that we have generationally right now.
You'll love it. And you gave me the perfect

(31:46):
transition now because I really wanted to make sure we had time
to talk about training, especially because of your
resume. And then I would love to talk
about your company a little bit too.
But so let me ask you a question.
And this is something I haven't had a chance to ask anybody yet
on this podcast, but I was, we're sitting down talking to
the boys one day. This is just recently.

(32:07):
And I said, man, I was listeningto this guy talking and made a
fucking valid point. And I'm like, why have I never
thought about it? They might present this
information. All the guys around the table
are like, makes sense. I never thought about that.
Why? Why isn't it like that?
So with that said, so we all know the military, right?
So if you join whatever branch of service it is, you go to boot
camp. OK, so I'm prior military, I was

(32:29):
prior to Coast Guard. So Coast Guard only has one boot
camp, but it's in Cape May, NJ. So with that said, so everyone
in the United States goes to Cape May, NJ to learn how to be
a Coast Guard, right? Learn how to do the job, you
learn how to be in the military.Everything else, why?
You know, Army does it, Marine Corps does it, everybody does
it, Air Force the whole night, right?
So with that said, so why? And it'd be amazing if we could

(32:53):
eventually get here, why does the American Fire Service do the
same thing? Because gods will say, well,
there's too many egos or this ishow we've always done or
whatever say, well, the militaryfucking does it, right?
They get these 18 year old snot as kids, including myself,
right? They break them down, they build
them up. But could you imagine, right?
And you could disagree with me? I think this is a, this is a
greatest idea in the world, right?

(33:14):
If we had a nationwide training facility, one on the East Coast,
one Midwest, one West Coast, right, But all three academies
trained the exact same thing. So if you go to a West Coast
training Academy, it's because you got hired by, let's say, LA,
right? Or Oregon or like wherever, like
Portland or something like that somewhere on the West Coast.

(33:35):
So but they all train the same. So on the West Coast Academy,
you still learn how to fight a high rise fire like the New York
City guys do, but vice versa. The guys in New York City will
learn how to fight a fire that has a 1200 foot freaking lay,
right. It's set back on three acres.
Like, like it's weird that I mean, military's done this

(33:55):
successfully and I'm curious what you think about it.
Like, I wonder why the American fire service never went to that
kind of recipe to get literally everybody on the same page.
Because that way they could takeus, transport us into any state
in the in across the country, and we'd be able to function in
their system, you know? Yeah, yeah.
I mean, dude, I mean, first of all, I, I love, I love the

(34:16):
military concepts and, and one thing that I've heard somebody
else say, and I, and I do love in relation to the fire service,
again, I wasn't in the military,but I'm just just speaking from
what, from some of my, my knowledge.
But so in the Marines, like no matter what you go into the
Marines to do, like everybody's a Rifleman, you know what I

(34:38):
mean? So it's like an American fire
service, like every single person is a hoseman, right?
Like you go to the Academy, every single person is a
hoseman. So like there is a very big
relation to those two things. I think.
I think at one time, you know, people have always said, you
know, like, you know, politics and, and firefighting tactics

(35:00):
are, are, are local type with the type of thing, you know, and
you're like, OK, well, I, I do agree with you to some extent,
because I, I do think that as I've travelled, you know, you
travel different places and people are doing the same exact
job every single city that you go to.
And in fact, I was in Mexico, inCabo last February.

(35:24):
We did a conference down there, which was an incredible
experience. And dude, we're, I mean, I don't
speak Spanish, so I have a translator who's the Battalion
Chief in Mexicali. And his English is good, very
good. And he did a great job for me.
And in fact, it was funny because by the end of the third
day, he's like, kind of like giving my spiel, like without me
saying anything. So it's kind of, it's kind of
this guy's kind of funny. But but, but here's the thing,

(35:48):
it's like you're you're teachingfirefighters, but I don't you
don't even speak the same language as them.
These guys are wearing turnouts that have holes in them, right?
The the crotches are blown out. They got holes in their boots,
like their SCBAS don't have passalarms.
They have no like no capability to to bloody breathe or trans
fill with anybody because they're these bottles are so

(36:09):
old, right? Like, but yet, but yet these,
these, these men and women both are number one, going balls to
the wall in every single evolution that you, that you
could throw at them, which was awesome, soaking up all,
everything that you're saying. And then on top of that, these,
these men and women are going tolegit like legit fires.

(36:30):
Like some of these guys are showing us videos and pictures
from some of the fires that they're responding to.
And in fact, one of the battalion chiefs from Tijuana
shows me on his phone like he's like, Hey, check this out.
And he shows me this, this like,you know, montage video on his
phone. And I was like, man, that's bad
ass. Like, what is that, like couple
years in Tijuana? He's like, he's like, that's one

(36:51):
month. And I was like, and I was, and I
was like, dude, like, like, can I come work for you?
Like, dude, like, that's insane.Yeah.
Insane. So, so, So what?
So what you find out is that firefighting has no borders,
man. It really doesn't.
And, and and no borders, no state to state internationally.
It really has no borders. Could we eventually do something

(37:14):
like that? Like you're saying, like, I
don't know, man, I, I, I think Ithink you're right.
I think ego is such a big thing in the, in the fire service and
unfortunately, because of ego, we will never get there.
But is there an opportunity to go to another place and learn
other things and bring those things back to your own
organization and try to improve things like yes, absolutely.

(37:34):
And, and quite honestly, man, I think if, if you come from, from
like if you work in a municipality where you went
through an Academy and then theyput you through their own
training and you've been on a job, like you should be able to
be inserted any city, any, anywhere, anytime of day, front
seat, back seat and be able to be successful, right?

(37:55):
I mean, like you're, you're, you're a firefighter And, and,
and that, that is a humongous honor to be that.
And unfortunately that's part ofthe other, the issue in, in, in
the American fire Service is that is that while people like
us people talk on podcasts or listen to podcasts, they said
like, obviously they are, they are very end of the job, but the

(38:17):
majority of the fire service andthe majority of departments are
not. And so that creates those
issues, right? But man, I, I, the more training
that happens, the the better, right?
And I think one thing that's interesting, you know, obviously
I, I teach a lot of search stuffand when I travel and, and one

(38:39):
thing that's very interesting right now in the search world is
that pretty much everywhere you go, everybody knows the common
language of like, hey, when you find a victim, you call out
victim, victim, victim. Like that's a pretty, it's a
pretty standard thing. What, what we're, what I've been
seeing is that when you go to these places and you talk to
people, what happens after you call a victim, victim, victim,

(39:03):
because everybody has a different take on the language
that's used, the protocol that happens the, you know, I think,
I think a lot of the, the techniques for, for dragging and
removing victims is, is becomingpretty common, which is awesome
because that is 100% of benefit to the citizen and, and, and the
customer. And that's what we should be
doing. But when it comes to the

(39:24):
communication pieces and how we communicate those things and how
we enact those actions as fast as possible to have the most
positive outcome, as we know time is our greatest enemy,
right? So like how do you do those
things? It is not as common as you would
think. And so maybe having more
consistency across the American fire service benefits the

(39:47):
outcome for, for these people that we are we are trying to
rescue. I mean, I, I, I definitely think
that. I mean, if you look at
firefighter rescue survey since that surveys come out right.
And then you you put that in conjunction with ULFSRI.
Search, study and stuff. And it's like, man, like there's
so much great information science based and you know, all

(40:11):
this data that backs up where wefind victims, what time of day
it is, you know, the, the, the height levels at which we need
to keep their head at to reduce the toxic and the thermal
threats to them. All this stuff, right?
But you still have firefighters that are like, I'll fuck that.
If I find somebody, I'm just going to pick them up and carry.
Them out it's always coming froma guy that's never actually had

(40:33):
to do that job and their only their only slideshow and their
brain is of trading evolution with the dummy, right?
And we all know dummies do not replicate fleshy people, right?
Right, Yeah, man. And, and so, so yeah, man, I
think the consistency level, I would love it if if the fire
service came out and said, hey man, when you find a victim, you
call out victim, victim, victim.When that is done, here are the

(40:55):
next steps that we should be doing right.
But and, and that's a battle that a lot of people are, are,
are fighting. It's like, you know, everybody's
like, you know, fucked in FDA and, and hey, man, like this,
you know, fuck ifs the but at the end of the day, man, like
those things were put in place for certain reasons.
I'm not saying that I agree witha lot of the things that are
coming out of there right now, but I, I do think that instead

(41:18):
of telling those guys to go fuckthemselves, then maybe, maybe
there's an opportunity for, for us to have some real
conversation and to, you know, try to encourage them to change
their practices. That would actually be true, you
know, firefighting techniques and tactics for the nation, you

(41:40):
know, and, and I think that's a reality because, you know, I'll
give you an example. What you know, Chief, that you
know from the Valley, Dennis Compton, who was, you know, a
very big name around the valley,like and, and in the American
Fire Service for a lot of thingsthat he's done.
I mean, he, I, I know him personally.
Fantastic man. The stories he tells, his

(42:01):
charisma, I mean, just very, very incredible, you know, 40
some years and as as an active, you know, member as as, as you
know, I think he retired as, as the chief of Mesa Fire
Department. So I mean, but anyway, he he
sits on the ESTA panels. So it's like, yeah, like that

(42:21):
guy gets it, man. That guy has worked in some a
few very large cities, very busyfire companies, right?
That guy understands, right. But yet he's still writing the
manuals for ISTA. So it's like, dude, like you
can't say like, hey man, hey, you know, that guy doesn't get
it because he does. But maybe those are
conversations that we need to start having as a as a fire
service to try to encourage continuity across the fire

(42:43):
service. Because I'll tell you what, man,
in in travels, it's like you meet people, same mindset, same
skill sets, do things a little bit differently, but in but you
start having those conversationsand people are learning things
from you and you're taking from them.
And dude, you're creating this, this incredible recipe for

(43:03):
success when you do those things, you know?
Absolutely. And we've mentioned it in prior
episodes and it it kind of feelslike it almost gets mentioned
every episode now. So if it does, it does.
But again, to really drive the point home to be a master of
your craft for everyone listening, right, it's like,
hey, what's the magic pill? There's no magic pill.
But I'll tell you one thing, andwe just alluded to it, right?

(43:27):
You have to have to have to get out of your department, out of
your region and start experimenting, taking classes
elsewhere in the across the United States or you know, the
world, you know, like you have, but it's you got to get out of
your bubble, your safety bubble,what you're comfortable with if
you really, truly want to get better.
And the craziest thing is you can learn something out of

(43:48):
class, bring it back, and be an influential person without even
knowing it, just by showing yourboys what you learned, you know?
Dude, I, I, I love it. And I obviously agree 100%.
You know, obviously I think getting outside of the walls of
your own fire department is the best thing that anybody can do.
And, you know, when I first started doing that stuff, you

(44:12):
know, I, I was trying to put it in perspective because of
course, like you, you go to these classes and conferences
and you want to come back and you're full piston vinegar and
you want to change the world. And especially in an
organization like mine's very large organization, like you're
like, OK, so I think this is awesome.
Everybody else here thinks that I'm a complete idiot, you know,
so like, how how do you do that?And, and one thing that that

(44:34):
that I think about often, and this is something that I
actually from my mom is that it's like she was telling me,
you know, hey, you're either going to learn something and be
like, yeah, there's a better, this is a better way to do it.
And then you're going to adapt to some of that stuff, or you're
going to look at that and be like, I'm never going to do it
that way because that is not right.

(44:56):
And so now, you know, when you're in that position that
you're, you're not going to do it that way.
So it reaffirms that you're doing the right things in your
own organization. Or it can reaffirm that it may
be some change is needed. And both of those things are
good things because either way, you're proving the point that
that that that change in the fire service is necessary and

(45:16):
you are learning something. So yeah, man, I.
Yeah, and don't like don't get discouraged either.
Like the guys like when you go out there and take the classes
and and like Skip was just saying like you come back and
you're full of piss and vinegar that I mean, that's a fucking
good thing. It's a very good thing, right?
But don't get discouraged when you get shot down everything
else like I would when you startthinking about departments,

(45:39):
right? So New York City, biggest
freaking department in the United States, right?
Over 11,000 freaking sworn members.
If 11,000 firemen in New York City were studs, right?
Every single one would have a podcast, they would have a
training minute, they would havesomething, right?
We all know the famous New York City firemen, right?

(45:59):
So just because they're the biggest, baddest department in
the country, right, doesn't meanthat they have all the same
problems that we have, right? The same percentage of
douchebags and mutts, right? The same percentage of high
performance. But it's just the fact that
they're so large. Like your department's way
bigger than my department, right?
You have the same percentage of high performance as we do, but

(46:22):
you have more members, so you have more high performance.
But then again, it swings the other way too.
When it comes down to the guys that the naysayers are the ones
that aren't willing to change oreven even listen to anybody, you
know, it's the larger you are, the more naysayers you have
because it's the same, it's the same percentage, you know, and
it's our job. And the guys listening, right,
is to continue to push the love of the job, right?

(46:45):
The passion for the job, the calling, right?
And this is this whole podcast exists because the coppers state
fools. And remember, like as we talk,
and I like to mention this as much as I can, if you need those
opportunities or like minded individuals like captain cats on
here right now, find a fool's chapter, right?
They'll help you out. Whatever state you're in.

(47:06):
I guarantee there's at least one, there's probably multiple,
but those are the guys who need to seek out.
But it's like skip a saying that's that's that's what you're
going to face, right? But don't let that discourage
you is kind of why I was interjecting.
No, dude, absolutely, man. And I will say, you know,
learning skill sets and learningnew techniques and, and that

(47:26):
kind of stuff is only a small fraction of the benefit of
getting outside of the walls of your own organization.
And I, and I and, you know, I use myself as the example, you
know, but the relationships thatyou build with people by going
to conferences, going to trainings and, and what you
learn out of those relationshipsand the friendship that you make

(47:49):
from that is just absolutely incredible, man.
I've had some experiences that Ijust, and I'm just so humble
and, and thankful for. And I I'll talk about brief
about what I did last week or the week before.
But, you know, a few years ago Iwent to a conference and you
know, we're we're fellowshippingat the bar after afterwards and

(48:11):
just so happened to to recognizeCorley Moore from the weekly
scrap, right. He's there.
Yeah, yeah, right, right. So you're just talking so like
and, and you know, a lot of people, you know, know who he is
and stuff. And so, so we had talked to him
earlier in the day at the conference because when I went
to smoke divers, there was a guyfrom his fire department that
was in my, my, my smoke diver class.
And and so we're so we're talking about him and the

(48:34):
setting, I think. So we see him at the bar and
he's like, oh, he's standing next to another guy and he says,
hey, hey, hey, you know, I want to introduce you to Kevin
Pfluger. And I was like, oh, cool, man.
So like I started having this conversation with this guy,
Kevin Pfluger. We never met the guy before.
Don't know where he's from, right.
Don't know much about him. Well, Fast forward, man, like
he's become a very close friend of mine.

(48:54):
He's he is incredibly, incredibly dialed in in the fire
service. He's a Lieutenant in Live Oak,
TX. It's a one station fire
department outside of San Antonio, that fire department
and one station is and hands down, probably the most
progressive and aggressive fire department.
IFC. It is incredible.

(49:15):
And again, to your point, there are still people that work there
that don't buy any of that stuff.
And he has a target on his back just as big as anybody else,
right? However, these guys are
incredible, man. They run a conference there,
Daggum Fire Conference in Texas.I've been to it twice.
He came to the symposium here. He's been out here to do host
testing a few times, you know, like we just developed this

(49:39):
relationship. Man, he is, he's one of my first
phone calls that I make when I got something that's really
bothering me or, you know, I gotsomething exciting that's going
on or I just want to talk shop. It's like he's one of my first
phone calls. And, and that's just, that's
just 'cause I met him at a bar And, and quite honestly, man,
he, you know, he's the reason that I went to Cabo.
He set that, that training up inCabo.
And so last weekend talked aboutthe power of, of the fire

(50:01):
service. But, but I went to Dagum Fire
Conference the first year he hadinvited us.
So we went and another guy that I, I worked with at the time, we
went to two of us and he, we're the only two guys from Phoenix
there. And so he puts us into this
group and, and he pairs us with,with four firefighters from
Porter Fire Department, which isa suburb of Houston.

(50:23):
And these dudes are go getters, man.
These dudes are, are just complete studs.
And so we're with these guys forfour days, two days of skills, 2
days of live fire with these guys for four days, man, develop
some relationship with these guys.
Awesome, awesome guys. Really, really bad ass fireman.
Fast forward a few months ago, Kevin Flewer calls me and says

(50:44):
that Jessica Steele, who's a Lieutenant in Porter, who was in
that group, that he got diagnosed with stage 4 lung
cancer and he's a 30 early 30s. You know, he's married.
He's got, yeah, yeah. And he's married, he's got, he's
got two kids, two young kids, right.

(51:04):
And so they wanted to put on a conference for him to, to do a
benefit for him and raise some money for his family.
And, and so I was like, dude, whatever you need, Like I, I
will be there, right. So, so we went there to Houston
last week or the week before anddid a, did a conference and
raised $35,000 for him and his family.
He, yeah, he was there, right? He was there and, and I mean,

(51:28):
it's not a dry eye in the room, right, when he's, he's thanking
everybody for being there and just incredible, incredible
experience. But that's, that's the fire
service, man. That's the true fire service.
And you only meet people that are willing to go outside of
their own organization and give up their time and give up their
knowledge and give whatever theyneed to give to help somebody

(51:49):
out. If you go outside.
Because when it comes to training, I think there are fire
departments that do an excellentjob of training their members.
But no matter what, no fire department can can give somebody
everything that they need to be a master of their craft.
So you have to go outside not only to build the skill sets,

(52:10):
but also to develop the relationships that of people
that you can rely on so that youhave resources to go to when you
need them. And still, yeah, man, it's like
I said, very fortunate to to have, you know, to be doing some
of the things that I'm doing andin part because getting outside
of of my own department. That's also actually just to

(52:30):
just to echo what you just said,I had him a Battalion Chief,
tell me this once and I'm like, but it that makes a hell of a
lot of sense. But he said, if you're waiting,
you know, for the training department.
So, right, obviously your department to provide you the
training that you need to be successful and go to this job,
you know, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

(52:52):
So it's just, there's just not enough time.
I mean, both of us work for verybusy departments, right?
But it doesn't matter the call volume, it's, it's the same
thing. It's it's time, it's money,
Everything else it's yeah, if, if you're waiting for your
department to provide all the training, it's, it's never going
to come. You're you're never going to be
proficient. Dude, absolutely, man.
And like I said, man, I, you know, I, I, I was the director

(53:13):
of training for our department and obviously a very large
organization, you, you have 1800line personnel.
So, and so when you're even lookat a calendar, right?
Even you look at the calendar just to, just to be like, Hey,
when, when can we do training? Well, Hey, man.
So like, I know it in as the director of training, like our

(53:33):
calendar ran, ran on A2 year cycle.
So it's a two year cycle, right?That's what they plan out 24
months at a time. And it's like, dude, like
realistically you can in, in a 24 month cycle, you're going to
fit in maybe 2 like legitimate hands on drills, right?
And there's lead up blocks to that stuff.
But when you, when you think in,in in our world of fire service,

(53:57):
unfortunately or fortunately, depending who you are, our world
of fire service also includes EMS.
It also includes, you know, hazmat, TRT, you know, etcetera,
etcetera, etcetera. So it's like as we continue to
to get more modalities for the for the fire department, like
the training time on actual trueskill development or

(54:18):
firefighters is less and less and less.
Yeah, and the, the American Fireservice as a whole from
inception up to today, sitting down and talking to you, I mean,
the amount of jobs and specialties the public expects
us to be able to master and thenthe public expects us to be able
to perform is just endless. You know, it's, I feel like
every couple years something else is added or, or expanded

(54:42):
upon. You know, it's like every time
you turn around, it's like, oh shit, now we have electric
vehicles to worry about hydrogenfusions in the future.
And then, you know, so we're doing EMS now.
Oh, let's do paramedics, let's do medicine, let's do commute.
Yeah. I mean, it's like it's just over
and over. There's no other government
organization out there that justcontinuously gets bombarded with

(55:03):
these jobs, right. And then literally within a snap
of finger, the public is expecting us to just be perfect
at them. You know, that's, that's a lot
of pressure. Like we had talked about, you
know, the first couple minutes of this podcast, that pressure,
you know? Yeah, absolutely, man.
And, and that's The thing is like, you know, you truly need

(55:24):
to be great at all those things.And unfortunately that's not
always possible, right? So, and, and you're, but you're,
you're right. I mean, I, I remember early on
in my career, there's a chief that said, Hey, man, he's like,
listen, like if anybody, your friends, your family, public,
whoever, if they ever give you ahard time about the money that

(55:46):
you make, they're like just havean understanding that they don't
understand. Because the end of the day, man,
you are a true expert in everything that you do.
You, you drive a fire truck or an ambulance, right?
You are an EMT or a paramedic. You are a firefighter, you are,
you know, a, a special OPS technician, you are whatever,
etcetera. Sorry, he goes to this whole

(56:06):
line of things. He's like, you are expected to
be 100% perfect in all those things and you are to some
degree, right. So, so you, you absolutely
deserve everything that you get.You know, and it's kind of kind
of unique outlook because at theend of the day, like, man, I
mean it, it all comes down to, to what the public expects of

(56:26):
us. I mean, I mean, I told, I told
the recruits that right now I'm down at the Academy as RTO and
it's I, I told them the same thing the other day and I said,
what does the public expect fromyou?
Right? And of course these are brand
spanking new wide eyed guys, right?
You know, of course. So everyone just big looks at me
and I'm like, guess what? Fucking everything.

(56:46):
You know, they expect you to figure it all out because I tell
them. And I might be the first person
to tell them that they might know from prior experience, But
it's like, hey, outside of police activities, right?
When someone calls 911, it gets defaulted to US 100% of the
time, right? Unless they say they have a gun.
And even if they have a gun, we're still coming, right?

(57:08):
But like, outside of the breaking and entries and stuff
like that, guess what? 911, it's a fire service.
It's it's, it's insane. Yeah, man, it it, it really is.
And, and again, I mean, I don't.I don't think that is actually a
bad problem to have. No, it's a good problem, but.
But but I do think that that there needs to be some
counterbalance to that as far astruly what the priorities of the

(57:31):
fire service are, because otherwise it's not the fire
service that's that's. Right, back to like traditions
and stuff like too. That's why I wholeheartedly
believe that the fire service traditions are very important
for those reasons too, because we just keep getting bombarded
with more work, more responsibilities, more
liability, everything else. And like, what do we have to

(57:52):
fall back on? We have to fall back on, you
know, the brother and sisterhood, right?
All of our traditions, the everything that we cherish and
love. And that's what I hate that when
management for different departments try to make the fire
department a business, we're nota business.
We're a service. We are a necessity if you want

(58:15):
to have businesses in your city because that's what keeps them
safe, you know? So we cost money, but right when
you need us, we're always there.And we're there really freaking
fast at all times of the day, all times of the night.
Yeah, absolutely, man. And and, and you're right
because like again, like I just like you.
I mean, I'm I'm very into the traditions of the fire service.

(58:37):
I think a lot of stuff is awesome.
These guys out there that say that stuff is Buffy, I don't
have time for you because you're, I don't, I don't think
you can be truly a great firefighter and not enjoy some
of the traditions of the fire service.
And, and what I mean by that is,is, is this simply, if you look

(58:59):
back to, to the first paid fire department was the, you know,
the Union hose company in, in 1736, right?
So, so Ben Franklin, that's Ben Franklin's fire company, right?
Well, hey, man, like what was the mission of, of, of that hose
company in 1736? Like the mission was to save
lives and to save property. And if you Fast forward to 2024?

(59:23):
What is the? The the the, the, the mission
statement for almost every fire department in the country is to
save lives and save property. So it has to change.
Right. So it's like, dude, like that is
the tradition of the fire service.
That is the mission of the fire service.
And all of our actions should begeared towards being mission

(59:43):
driven. Beautiful.
Yeah, man, that's that's that's my take on on that for sure all.
Right. Well, listen, I, I really want
to get into the Georgia Smoke divers and then after that I
want to talk about your company because I think that'll finish,
just finish us out on that training aspect.
I really want to know what you guys do then, how you teach it

(01:00:05):
differently and all the other fun stuff.
But before we get to that, I wrote this down because I did
not want to miss it. It because I'm very curious on
this you talked about. So you're at a station that gets
a booter. We're rewind in about an hour
here. So you're at a station right
that gets a booter every three months.
So you're constantly doing thesedrills.
You get them all the freaking time.
So what is your personal favorite booter drill?

(01:00:28):
But more importantly, why? And then what is it and if you
can explain it to the audience? Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, man.
Yeah, absolutely. We obviously, like I said
earlier, doesn't matter who you are, where you came from, what
other stations you worked at, your day one, you know, or
almost off probation a week later.

(01:00:49):
We do, we build people up the same way.
I start everybody off the same way and we build everybody up
because I think that we have an obligation to teach things with,
with an expectation that's attached to it.
And so like I said, like we justfinished talking about, hey,
man, the, the expectation for the public should be the

(01:01:09):
forefront of everything that we do.
It's one thing I talk about is, is this and it's kind of the
setup for, for getting into the,the drill.
But hey, man, I live in the citythat I work in, right?
So I live 2 miles from a fire station.
I know those guys that that work2 miles away from me.
Obviously I don't work there, but I've trained some of those
guys. I know those guys.

(01:01:30):
I have a 3 1/2 year old daughterat my house.
So when my house is on fire and my 3 1/2 year old daughter is
trapped inside, I know exactly what I expect out of that
company that's going to be firstinto my house.
And and So what I impart on my crew is, hey man, there is

(01:01:55):
nobody in this world that I lovemore than my daughter.
So I know what I expect and and what I expect is I don't care
what they have to do. They need to get in there and
they need to get her out of there, right.
And so, so I'm not saying that that that we need to be reckless
or dangerous or not assess any risk.
But what I am saying is that is the expectation.

(01:02:17):
And so I want my crew and my company to respond to a
structure fire and search that structure with the same
expectation that I have for my own daughter.
Because while we don't know those people that we're
responding to, they just like I do or you do love somebody in
that house more than anything inthe world.
And so I kind of encourage that discussion with everyone.

(01:02:44):
And, and we have those discussions because I think it's
important to understand where you're coming from.
And then the other side of that is, so how do we do those
things? Well, the The thing is we have
to teach people how to search and have people teach people how
to search properly. And some of that is breaking
some habits that have been taught like we talked about
earlier. It just is what it is, man.

(01:03:05):
Be it if the standard, be it estate standard, be it whatever
it is, there are habits that need to be broken.
So, so my favorite drill, that'sa long way of saying my favorite
drill. What we do at the station I work
at is a small station, our living room and our kitchen is
not very big. It's All in all in the same
room. And So what we do is we, we drag

(01:03:26):
some beds in there. We like kind of rearrange the
furniture and so and we, we bought a little smoker fog
machine on Amazon. It's 50 bucks.
We put we put that in there, we smoke it out and.
And this is this is all at the house.
It's in the station. Oh, I love it.
I love. It OK, so So what we do is so my

(01:03:48):
favorite drill with that is is make somebody do some type of
task, right. So we'll be like, hey man, you
got 10 up downs or a minute on the assault bike, whatever it
is. But you get off, you gotta throw
your bottle with gloves on, maskup for, for time.
And then you make entrance in into the building and there
could be 1 victim in there. There could be 6 victims in

(01:04:10):
there. There could be 0 victims in
there. But you'd have to get an all
clear of of those rooms as fast as possible.
And, and I, you know, we, we keep some guesswork into that
'cause I don't think it's fair for us in training to say all
the time, hey man, you know, there's going to be 3 victims on
this drill, right? We don't know, right?

(01:04:33):
And, and that's, that's, that's training in response to what
happens on the actual fireground.
You pull up on, on the fireground and, you know, Missus
Smith in the front yard says, well, everybody's out of the
house, but then you go in there and you find somebody.
It's like, dude, like that happens.
And statistically we know that that happens if you look at the
surveys and stuff and, and the other way too, right?

(01:04:53):
Like so you know, I, I, I, I, I for me, that's absolutely my
favorite drill because that drill is something that we do,
we try to do that drill once or twice every three months.
So they get it once or twice, typically towards the end of
their rotation. OK.
So I got you. I I love that.

(01:05:13):
That's why I said like you're doing it at the house.
I think that's amazing Like you guys bought your own smoke
machine, right? So you're not like going to
training trying to justify why you're trying to borrow a smoke
machine to smoke out the house, You know, like something.
Yeah, dude. Well, well, that's great.
Funny, funny story because we'rewe're setting up for this drill
one day. And so we have this, this, this
smoke machine running. We get an EMS call and we're

(01:05:37):
we're running this EMS call withanother company down the street.
So we're standing there and the engineer from the other
company's like, hey man, house fire or a structure fire just
kicked out. And I was like, oh shit, where's
the house? He's like, yeah, he's like, he's
like that, that your station. And I was like, what, you know,
and what had happened was somebody had came to the

(01:05:57):
station, the utility truck came to the station to fill up the
the SCA bottles. And he and he and he went to
walk in the he's in the Bay and he went to walk in.
He opened the door and the flooris ceiling smoke.
So he shut the door. Smart fireman right there.
Yeah, yeah, he called it. He called it in as three in one.
So. Oh.
My God, that's. Hysterical.
And then I. Yeah.
So I cancel the assignment and we get back there and then of

(01:06:18):
course he's like, I just saved your station.
I was like, bro, I'm like, it's fog.
It's like. So yeah.
Oh my God, that's amazing. So just just to recap, there's a
couple things you said. I really want to drive home.
It's so like you're saying like alluding to your favorite drill,
you're like, hey, we're not being reckless.
We're being aggressive. Everything else, right?

(01:06:39):
We're we're assessing risks. We're not eliminated.
I know you didn't say the not eliminate, but that's, that's a
culture that we are actively fighting right now.
Thank God that we're not really in that boat as much as some
other departments across the nation right now, because I
honestly feel like your department, my department, we're
we're still fairly aggressive. But with that said, it's like

(01:07:00):
the the idea of we can eliminaterisk is impossible in this
profession. And if you feel like you come to
work and hey, I know for a fact I'm going to be 100% safe and
I'm going to go home tomorrow. Like I wish that was a reality,
but that's not a reality. Like the oath you took says that
you will risk everything to savea person right in need.

(01:07:23):
And I think guys forget that like it's we are in a profession
that requires us to have risk, right?
And because of that, it's, it's an amazing profession that not
everyone can or should do. But with that said, right, we
can never eliminate risk, but weneed to assess it.
And if we assess it rapidly and with aggressive firefighting

(01:07:47):
techniques, then the risk startsto go away because guess what?
We put the fucking fire out, right?
Or we remove the victims from the building.
If we do that in a rapid, aggressive manner, everything
gets better faster. Just like you were saying on
that first fire under your belt,right?
It was one of those things whereit's like, hey, that's a long
way. Now we have a rescue profile.

(01:08:07):
We're not freaking laying in because we know we got to go
search right now, right? We have enough water on the
truck to knock down the body of fire, find the victim and get
the hell out before crews start supporting us.
Yeah, absolutely mad. I mean, it's that that's
obviously a conversation that wecould spend, you know, the whole
night talking about, you know, and, and I think you're right.

(01:08:28):
I mean, I think, I think where we work, let's still we work.
I think we, we, we do a very, very good job of, you know, kind
of teetering that line. And obviously because of the
command systems that, that were grown in our area, I think
people do a good job of assessing risk, however, but I,

(01:08:49):
I, I do think that the people can misinterpret some things and
that risk can be taken out of context as well.
Because at the end of the day, man, like everybody's risk
assessment is different. And what you may think is risky,
I may think is normal behavior, right?
And so there really isn't a way,I don't think to say like, hey,

(01:09:12):
man, like these are the do's andthe, the do nots.
Because at the end of the day, man, like the worst thing that
we could be as firefighters is robots.
And you don't want that. And So what we always talk about
in training, and I, I encourage is, hey, Matt, to me, the best
firefighter is the most trained,the most educated and the most
able to make independent decisions for the best outcome

(01:09:35):
of the incident. And that that's a firefighter
that can, that can assess something and be like, yeah,
man, like yes, we're going forward or no, we're not.
And, and, and especially like ina relation to search, it's like,
hey, man, like if you just define what searchable space is
to you and you and you fall within those those things, then

(01:09:57):
hey man, then I, I don't think that you're going wrong.
You're not going rogue. You're not being overly
aggressive, like to the point where it's catastrophic, right?
Like, yes, there's always a possibility that something bad
could happen. But speaking about search, it's
like, hey man, like searchable space.
So a lot of people, you know, dodo the whole survivability

(01:10:18):
profiling thing, which I'm 100% against 'cause I think that's
completely wrong. Like you can't like, like, I
just don't think we can look at a building and be like, yeah,
man, somebody's alive in there. Like you have no freaking idea
what's going on there. And you see people that survive
structure fires that you pulled up and you're like, dude, I
didn't see one inch of building that wasn't covered in a fire.

(01:10:40):
Like how are they alive versus going to, you know, a, a fire
where it's like a room of contents fire and somebody's
down the hall and, and they're incapacitated and they don't
make it out right. So like everybody's different
because of that. And so we can't, we can't
profile anybody based on that. But what we can profile is can
we search it? And to me, that's, hey, man, can
I occupy the space with my, my training, my experience and my

(01:11:04):
PPE? And if I have those three things
in in place, then I'm going to assess my risk properly and I'm
going to make a good decision, right?
And so again, it goes back to educating people to make good
decisions. And everybody's different,
right? So like a two year firefighter
is not going to be able to search space that a 12 or a 15

(01:11:26):
year firefighter should be able to search, right?
Because they don't have the training, as much training and
they don't have as much experience, but they have the
same PPE. However, even in their own PPE,
their limits. Like you're saying you work as
a, as a RTO right now. So when you're putting your
recruits into, you know, the flashover channel for the first
time, you're seeing guys that are squirming, right?
Like they're like, holy shit, it's hot in here.

(01:11:47):
Like, I don't know if I like this 1st.
And you're sitting in there likedrinking a soda, right?
Like it's like no big deal to you.
So everybody's got different take on all three of those
things. But again, that's setting an
expectation and having having parameters for how you're gonna
assess things and how you're gonna move forward from those
things. But I 100% agree with you, man.
Like, it's something I think about all the times, but like,

(01:12:09):
why did I get into the fire service?
Why do I love this job so much? What attracted me to it, man?
Like, and it's it it you took the words out of my mouth, man.
Like I 100% am attracted to the fact that I am willing and I'm
able to do things that other people aren't willing to do.
And. That's that's the biggest thing
with the fire service. The opportunity that we are
allotted to do things that the public will think is just insane

(01:12:33):
or would never have the opportunity is crazy.
And that's what we get to experience because of this
profession, right? This culture, this job A. 100%
man. And, and, and there's so much
more that goes into that, right?I mean, like, I mean that that's
something that for me as a, as an individual, I've always
prided myself in playing sports and stuff.
I had a coach at when I was a kid was like, hey, man, if you

(01:12:53):
want to play at the next level, you got to be doing, willing to
do things that other people aren't willing to do.
I'm like, yeah, copy that man. So I've lived my life like that,
man. And I and I, and I truly believe
that. And that's what but, but I, I
really think that at the root ofall this stuff in the fire
service, man, if people really understand what the public's

(01:13:14):
expectations are of us and how we meet those expectations and
what are you truly willing to doto meet those expectations?
That would, that would put our fire service way ahead.
And it would also drop a lot of ego because because it's not
just ego. When we have ego, too much ego
creates incompetency. And I think when you, when you

(01:13:34):
drop ego, you're creating more competent firefighters because
now they're not afraid to practice skills, to be
vulnerable to, to learn something new.
Dude. I mean, you know, we kind of hit
on it earlier, but it's like, soyou have ULFULFSRI with all
their incredible information, right?
You have firefighter rescue survey that, you know, puts out

(01:13:55):
all this data in the city that Iwork and I'm not sure if your
city does. My, my city does.
We have our own internal survey that mirrors the firefighter
rescue survey. And it's interesting because
firefighter rescue survey says that in, in over 3000, you know,
rescues 45% of people are found in bedrooms.
Well, in, in our city, our internal survey, it says that

(01:14:19):
55% of people are found in bedrooms.
So should we be gearing our searches more towards bedrooms
because we know there's a 55% chance somebody's in there like
yes, 100%, right. So you can use these things to
make better decisions and to reduce risk in doing those
things, right. So if we go to the bedrooms and
we isolate and we ventilate, nowI'm in a compartment, I have

(01:14:43):
passive ventilation. I'm in a way better spot than
that dude down the hallway that's got a hose line by the
fire is. Right, or how to push through
the front door and through the bulk of the fire to try to make
his way to where he believes thebedrooms are because he doesn't
really know. You know, right as oriented as
we try to stay, it's always easyto, you know, get disoriented,
especially on the nozzle making that first push.

(01:15:03):
Absolutely, man. So again, like I think we have
to use this stuff to our advantage because because it it,
it will make an impact on the outcome for civilians and
certainly for firefighters too. But that that's, you know, that
comes down to at the end of the day, I mean, I think I think the
base for all this stuff, you gotto have a high level of fitness,

(01:15:25):
right? In order to do the job, you got
to have an education, which includes just like you said,
building construction size up inaddition to being able to make
task level decisions and performtask level skills, right?
So it's a complete package. And it's not just one piece.
You can't just say, hey man, we're going to train on this and
this alone because I don't care how fast your mask up time is or

(01:15:48):
how quickly you can stretch a line.
If you don't know where that line goes and how you're going
to get into the door. And once that door pops, that
somebody could be behind that front door and where you're
going to go with that, that hoseline and people are going to
search the opposite direction orwhatever the case is.
It's like you can't put all the pieces together.
Then we're not going to do what we need to do.
Exactly. And, and before we move on,

(01:16:11):
it's, you know, you said it without seeing the exact words,
right? But we operate in the Gray
pretty much 100% of the time. The fire service does not have
black and white. The only black and white we have
are pretty much HR rules. But outside of that, you're,
you're right. It's what, what is, what does
that building give you that day?What does that door present you
that day? What does that room present you?

(01:16:32):
You know, it's what, what does the roof give you?
It's all, it's all those situations you can run a house
fire in the same neighborhood that you just did last week and
it's a completely different fucking call because it's
different time of day, differentfire load, different residents,
you know, everything's different.
So it's like you can never say, well, I've been on this fire
before, like, well, you actuallyhaven't, right?

(01:16:53):
This is a completely different fire.
There's some nuance to it might be a very similar fire, right,
Which is most of our fires are typically we all know in the
fire service that we just call them our bread and butters,
right? Or 90% bread and fire fire house
fires. But they're not the ones that we
need to train on. They're not the ones we learn on
and and everything else. It's it's all those others.
But that's just how it is. So we operate in that Gray.

(01:17:14):
So tell us so because Gray, right?
This is a huge Gray, I believe so tell us about the Georgia
smoke diver program. You're the first one from the
state of Arizona, right, to go and graduate, which is a big
deal. So can you please tell the
audience a quick little recap, because I know most guys know
what it is, but just quick recapof what the Georgia Smoke Diver

(01:17:36):
is. But more importantly, hey, why
did you want to go right? And then what was that
experience late while you're in?And then did you feel like
you've received any benefits from when you went, when you
left there graduating to the dayyou're back at your department
again working? Yeah, absolutely, man, man, that

(01:17:57):
George smoke diver from I, I I can't say enough positive things
about it. It, it completely changed my
life as a firefighter. I think it, it, it changed my,
my life and my outlook and my personal life.
It's made me a better dad, a better person, a better friend,

(01:18:17):
certainly a better firefighter and, and, and a better captain,
a better leader because of, of that program.
So yeah, man, it for anybody that doesn't know the, the real
quick synopsis is it's a six dayclass, 60 hours is what they
they cola to could be a little bit more depending on how the
week goes. But it's, it's very high level

(01:18:41):
of physical condition and it goes into it.
But the, the, the premise is really focused around search
operations and also around firefighter survival rate
operations. And really what it's about is,
is having people find their limits and then finding ways to

(01:19:02):
problem solve and move past those limits so that they can
have the best outcomes, be that again, with civilians or with,
with firefighters. So I went to the class in in
2021. I went with another guy from my
department. We worked at the same station.
He says that I'm #1 because I'm older than him, but we'll agree

(01:19:24):
to disagree on that. That's awesome.
But we both, we both went and sothat, so both of us we applied
three times. So for anybody that applies and
they don't get in like don't be discouraged by that at all
because it is challenging to getinto the program.
I, I know that right now, this year alone they had 500 or 550

(01:19:47):
applicants out of state applicants for the program and
they only take about 40 out of that number for, for per year.
So there's a class in November and a class in February.
So you get about 20 out of stateapplicants that are into the
class in November and then another 20 that are in February.
So, but with that being said, you know Oklahoma Smoke Diver

(01:20:10):
program, Indiana Smoke diver program and coming soon in 2025
is the Colorado Smoke Diver program, all of which are the
same curriculum. A lot of the same instructors.
So if, if you can't get into Georgia, I, I and you're
interested in it, I certainly would encourage people to go to
one of the other programs. And in fact, we're going to go,

(01:20:30):
we go back to to Georgia every year's instructors in November,
but we're going to start going to Colorado also because we can
drive there. So yeah.
So I, I hope that there it creates a pipeline of people
from our valley that that reallywant to want to do this thing.
But so yeah, now we, we applied three times, didn't get in,
didn't get in. And then the last time we were

(01:20:51):
like, hey man, let's apply one more time.
So we applied and we got in. And so when we got in, didn't
know anybody spent to the program, really didn't even know
what was about at the time that they didn't really have social
media or anything at the time. So it was pretty like minimal as
far as they could see on YouTubeand stuff.
Looked like there were some physical conditioning pieces to

(01:21:12):
it, but we didn't really, I don't think we really understood
what we were getting into. David Rhodes, who at the time
was the head of the program, he's still involved in the
program, but he's passed his role at that time to somebody
else. But, but he's still very, very
involved with the program. But David Rhodes knew someone
that worked in our department. So he reached out to that guy

(01:21:34):
and said, hey man, you got two guys from your department coming
to this program. Please tell them that about 30%
of the people that come here thefirst time don't make it.
So if they want to be successful, they need to.
They need to be ready. Wow.
And and so we're like, so we're like, all right, so you got

(01:21:54):
about 30% pass rate for out of state candidates on their first
attempt. And I'm like, it's like, well, I
don't even know what that means,you know, because you don't
really know what you're getting into.
And so CJ Schreifels was the guythat I went with one one of my
best friends. So we just kind of sat together
and we're like, hey, man, like what are we going to do?

(01:22:15):
And so we agreed. We said, hey man, we're going to
kind of set some standards for ourselves.
And the first standard that we have is we're going to be able
to work out in gear for one hourwithout stopping.
And if we can do that, we, we should probably be in a pretty
good place to, to get to this program.
So that's kind of what we said, man.
Hey, one hour in gear minimum was, was the standard before we

(01:22:39):
got there for us. And then the other thing was
that we both said, hey, man, we are coming home in black shirts.
We're coming home in an ambulance.
And you have to have that mindset.
And that was just us, man. I'm not saying to everybody
things like that. I'm saying that that's a
requirement of the, of the program.
But to me, I was just like, hey,Ben, like it's one or the other,
dude. There is no failure here.

(01:23:00):
Like we will find a way to be successful.
How long did it take you guys toget ready or how much time did
you have to prepare before you actually went to the program?
I want to say that we got the e-mail sometime in August.
Sometime in August we found out that we got into the program and

(01:23:20):
it, it was the 3rd week of November.
So we, we had about 3 months, 3 1/2 months.
So they, they say that there's, there, there are people that
have trained for years before they get there.
And I believe that, you know, cause 'cause granted, the other
half of the class is made-up from people that are in state
from Georgia. And the process for them
together is a little bit different.

(01:23:40):
It's a, it's actually for them. They test into the process.
So they will take a written testand then do a physical test and
then they score you and the highest scores get into the
class. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So, so but, but out of state because you're so far it
doesn't, it doesn't work exactlythe same.
So you still test in when you get there day one, you'll take a

(01:24:02):
written test and then you take then you do the, the physical
test the first day. But, but, but they don't make
you do before you get there. So, but yeah, man.
So we we went to Georgia and obviously, you know, everything
was new to us and including the climate because it's November in

(01:24:23):
North Georgia and we're trainingin Arizona.
So you know that that that's a culture shock in itself, right?
So you know when your turnouts are are soaking wet and they
don't dry, you're like, OK, probably should have brought
another set of turnouts. With you didn't think this one

(01:24:44):
all the way through. Yeah, yeah.
But but yeah, man, they, they, they put you up in a hotel there
and you, you hit the hit the ground running day one.
And you know, the, the PT obviously that's what everybody
focuses on. Everybody likes to talk about
the PT and, and, you know, social media likes that stuff.
And, and you know, I mean, yes, the PT is difficult.

(01:25:07):
Like there's no doubt about that.
You need to be physically prepared for that.
But again, like they're not trying to hurt anybody.
They're not trying to kill anybody in PT.
What they're trying to do is they're trying to stress you
out. Again, it goes back to that
skill under pressure type of stuff.
It's like they're putting pressure on you so that when
they teach you something and youhave to perform those skills

(01:25:27):
like you, you have to make a conscious choice to say, hey,
man, how am I going to get through this?
Because because if I wasn't tired, like it'd be no big deal
for me to do this evolution right now.
But because I'm tired and I've been doing this this for three
days and I'm sore and I'm beat down and these guys are yelling
at me. It's like, dude, like focus on

(01:25:48):
the task at hand. How do we get out of this
situation? And yeah, man, I, I just, I
can't say enough good things about that program.
It certainly was a catalyst for me in, in changing my mindset
towards search. They, they give a search class
there on day one. It's a PowerPoint presentation
that they give to you when you're eating lunch the first
day. And then they build off of that

(01:26:10):
throughout the week in actual search techniques, search
tactics. And then that leads up to later
in the week when you're doing live fire evolutions and
actually, you know, performing searches in there.
And, and you know, they focus ontruck search VES and then also
engine based search also. So it kind of hits on three

(01:26:31):
different areas of search, which, you know, in obviously in
our system, we're not a truck based culture when it comes to
search. So some of that stuff was, was
brand new for us, but even even the way that they teach, you
know, movement and the communication pieces of those
things like man, like it was, itwas just incredible.
And we soaked all that up. You know, it's I, I think when

(01:26:53):
you go through a fire Academy, obviously you, you make
relationships and, and with people and, and that's the, the,
the brotherhood and the sisterhood of of the job.
Some of those relationships carry on throughout your career.
I will say that that in smoked out of organization, that
brotherhood, sisterhood is strong and stronger than

(01:27:13):
anything I've ever seen. So in my smoked diver class, we
started with 45 people, we graduated 21.
And I would say if not all 21, then 19 of 21 people are on a
group text message. And that that that message fires
off probably, you know, once a week, twice a week, three times

(01:27:34):
a week, depending what's going on in the world.
But guys are encouraging each other.
Hey man, I'm up for promotion. Like, hey, man, I'm taking, I'm
going to go to this conference and, you know, wherever, hey,
who wants to go with me to this class?
Like, dude, it is just incredible.
The, the, the, the, the brotherhood and the sisterhood
like that, that camaraderie thatcomes with that.

(01:27:54):
And, and, and again, when peopleachieve things together, you
create something through struggle.
And I think that's, that's what that is.
But those are some of the finestfirefighters, but more
importantly, some of the finest people that I've ever met in my
life. And, and we've had a chance to
go back now CJ and I've gone back.
This will be our third year in November, going back as

(01:28:15):
instructors. And man, you're reconnecting
with those people and having conversations, talking about
challenges in their, in your department, their department,
the fire service, it, it is justsuch a refreshing and incredible
thing. And man, graduating from that
program, I mean, it was, it was certainly a highlight for me.

(01:28:38):
So when we, when you graduate, David Rhodes does like an exit
like thing with everybody and kind of kind of ask people like
he's like, hey, I'm going to askyou this question.
And over the next few weeks, we'll be reaching out to you
through e-mail and I want you to, to write down your response
because we compile it. And they do, I mean, the amount
of data they compile throughout the week is just incredible.

(01:29:01):
It's like an incident command system, like dude, it is, it is
ICS like to the next level. They have a command van there.
They're keeping track of people's hydration, they're
keeping track of people's calories.
They're keeping track of of how many times you go to the
bathroom, how many times you fill up your water jug, how many
times have you X. It's it's like, dude, it is
incredible to what level they have this thing down in it.

(01:29:26):
But he asked at the end of the thing, he said, hey, man, like
I, I want you to give a review of, of, of the week and what you
thought and how you prepared. Was your preparation enough?
Did you think that you like, it was going to be harder?
Was it less? Was it more like what can be
improved? All this kind of stuff?
And I just told him straight up.I said, hey, man, I was like, I

(01:29:49):
am a captain in a very large municipal busy fire department.
I'm really into training. I train a lot.
I work at stations that are busycompanies.
We go to fires, we train a lot, you know, individually, but I
also travel and go to conferences and this kind of
stuff. I was like, I 100% felt like I

(01:30:10):
was in day one Week 1 of fire Academy for six days straight
here. Wow, that that intense, huh?
It dude, I mean it's just like it's so overwhelming because
they're throwing so much information on you like dude,
we're going back to our room at night and we're keeping journals
and we're just like just dude writing Hey man, this is how we

(01:30:32):
packaged this firefighter to heyman, this is how we know
firefighter upstairs. Hey, in this situation, this is
how we're going to, you know, buddy breed.
Hey, this is we're going to do amass change out.
It's just like, dude, you have just just pages and pages and
pages of information. And what's funny about that is
that as a student, you're takingall that in and, and, but really

(01:30:53):
when you go back to the instructor, I think I learned
way more as an instructor and asa student.
So it's like it's just an incredible thing to be a part
of, man. Very, very fortunate, very, very
humbled to be a smoke diver. I, I, I, I wear that very, very
proudly. So, yeah, man, I can't, can't
say enough great things about it.
And yeah, Arizona one and Arizona 2.

(01:31:17):
CJ Schreifel, he graduated. We graduated at the same time.
So when you graduate, they give you a a number, a Georgia
number, and then a state number.So when I graduated, I was
Georgia number 1100, Arizona number one, and then he's
Georgia number 1102 Arizona #2. So, well, thanks, yeah, thank

(01:31:37):
you so much for sharing that story with us and, and educating
guys that don't know about the program.
I'm I'm hopefully they're all going on Instagram right now
and, and looking it up. But I, I mean, I, I know I've
personally looked into it and, and just jealous of the guys
that have had the opportunity togo so far.
And it's definitely something onmy bucket list I hope to
accomplish. So thanks.
Thanks for sharing that. So before we get to the

(01:32:00):
questions for season 1, I reallywant to ask you about your
company. So we talked about in the bio,
right? So you said you're the, you're
the founder and the co-owner of priority fire training.
So tell us a little bit about your company and then really
your main mission, your main focus right now.
Absolutely man, thank you for bringing that up.

(01:32:22):
Really appreciate that. So prior to fire training, yes,
I, I, we started that company. It's the.
The owners of the company are myself, CJ Schreifels, Arizona
#2. Number one, number two right
there. Number one, number two, Yep.
And, and, and Josh Brooks, who we, we work with, he's a, he's a
captain in our department. He, he was my engineer actually

(01:32:45):
when I was a firefighter. I knew him before I got on the
job. And we've, we've worked along
alongside each other for quite some time.
We've traveled to some conferences together and stuff.
Phenomenal person. And so we, you know, and we're
doing what firefighters do. We, we, the three of us are very
engaged. We're into the job.
We traveled to some classes and conferences and we're learning

(01:33:07):
information that we're coming back to our own department.
And I think what happened is we,we just looked at, at the
organization that we're in and then in the, in its entirety,
the fire service in our area, in, in the valley and in the
state. And it's like, man, like there's
a gap here. There's a gap in, in, in how

(01:33:27):
much training should be provided.
There's skill sets that can be developed and, and cultivated
here and encouraged so that people really that are chasing
that have an outlet to develop their skills and be better at
their jobs. And I think that there's a way
for us to do that because right now there's pretty much zero to

(01:33:49):
0 to none opportunity for that stuff.
You know, and, and, and I will give some credit to, to Chris
Slayer from, from Mesa, Dude, he's a, he's phenomenal.
And, and he really was the firstperson in this area that brought
in outside training, right? He brought knowledge forward
here. He's ran the Copper State Fire
conference a few times. Like he, he's done a lot of that

(01:34:10):
stuff, but we kind of looked at it like, hey, man, like how do
we do this at like grassroots level?
And, and what are we all about? And, and how can we offer
services to, to people? So that's really where it, where
it came from. And it started out as that.
The reason it's called priority fire training is kind of a play
on words, but number one was because of our, our tactical

(01:34:33):
priorities, like what is most important to us, We know that
life safety is number 1. And so we believe that
wholeheartedly. We teach about that, we talk
about that and we focus the skill sets around being able to
provide the best service so thatwe can, we can give somebody
their best chance at life. So that's part of that.

(01:34:54):
The other thing is that all three of us, we believe in, in
family and we believe in, in thebrotherhood and the sisterhood
of the job and, and having your priorities straight because it's
very easy to get caught up in, in, you know, traveling all the
time and this and that and like taking time away from your
family. And so we were like, hey, man,

(01:35:15):
like if we're going to do this, we are going to try to do it the
right way so that we can keep our priorities straight and we
can teach that lesson to other people as well.
So, so that was that was part ofit too.
And then when you look at our logo that we made, there's the
logo has three pieces of that logo that make up to us.

(01:35:35):
Well, we think that the top three priorities for training
are and, and the top three things that we like to teach
about and, and talk about. So the logo for anybody that's
listening, we don't have a website, but we have an
Instagram. So you can look it up at
priority fire training. But what it is, it's a, it's a,
a skeleton wearing a, a helmet. He's got a rose in his mouth.

(01:35:55):
And then in one hand he has a halogen.
On the other hand, he has a a nozzle smooth bore in fact, but
that's another another story. But the reason that we did that?
Was. Yes, yes, yes.
Another podcast. Yeah.
But the reason that we did that because to us, those are the the
the top three priorities for training, the top three skill

(01:36:17):
sets that need to be developed are those three things.
So the Halligan is for forceful entry.
If you can't force a door and you can't get in, then it really
doesn't matter. Nothing else really matters
anyways, right? Because you got nothing unless
you can get into the structure. So that was, that was the number
one priority. We recognize that there that
there, you know, culturally in this area, there is not a high

(01:36:39):
priority on forceable entry. So we, we, we saw that and we,
we like that. And the next thing was the
nozzle. Obviously in order to, to put
fire out, in order to create searchable space inside these
structures, we need water, we need water on fire.
And so we, we saw a need for that.

(01:37:00):
Obviously nozzle forward is an incredible class.
And so we kind of broke that down.
Like I said, I mean, we, we designed and developed training
for the, for our organization, but that focused on water
application, hose line management, deployments,
everything that goes into anything hose line and nozzle.
We're like, hey, man, we, we arereally good at that stuff.

(01:37:21):
We've taught that stuff a lot ofdifferent places.
Like there needs to be a high priority in that because being a
really, really good hoseman is alost art.
And so we wanted to encourage, encourage that.
So that's the second piece, second priority.
And then the last piece, the rows through the, the skeleton,
through the skull. That's a, that's a, a symbol for

(01:37:43):
life. And that goes back to search and
search. Search is, is certainly
something very, very high on ourlist, something that we believe
in wholeheartedly. We teach and yeah, man, still.
And then the totality of that, that logo is a firefighter.
And so that goes back to that firefighter safety piece,

(01:38:04):
teaching writ stuff, teaching Mayday stuff, teaching ways to
package people and kind of having that next level of, of
firefighter safety built into some of the training that we do.
So those are all the priorities that we that we thought were
important and kind of why why weput it together.
So I love it and thanks. Thanks for sharing that with
you. And just so just so I make sure
I have it correctly, you know, it will be in the notes for this

(01:38:26):
episode so they can find you currently just on Instagram.
Is that correct? And what's your Instagram
handle? It's a priority fire training.
Perfect. So yeah, find them on Instagram,
DM them if you have any other questions.
Like I said, another great resource.
And that's what this is all about, just making resources
available to everybody to just answer questions, get better in

(01:38:47):
the train. So listen, Skip, we've been
talking for a long time, brother.
So with that said, Are you readyfor wrap it up and we'll get
into the questions for Season 1?Let's do it.
All right, brother. So question number one.
So the why? So we asked this to the guys.
Get hired. We asked this to guys, are we on
the job trying to promote or even just a different job within

(01:39:09):
the organization they work for? But this why?
So why? Why did you decide, hey, I want
to be a fucking fireman? What was was it something that
happened? Was it a?
When did you get bit by the bug?Oddly enough man, I mean I think
I actually got bit by the bug when I was about two years old.
You know. It's like I, I grew up in

(01:39:30):
Baltimore City, very rich fire tradition there.
And it's kind of one of, yeah, it's kind of one of those things
where like when I was, when I was a kid, man, I have an older
sister. We, my mom and I would drop my
sister off at school and we'd grab breakfast and then we'd run
by one of the fire stations and look at the trucks and that kind
of thing. And I was just kind of like,

(01:39:50):
like I always was intrigued by that, you know?
And, and I don't even really know how that started, why my
mom started doing that with me, but I certainly was very, very
intrigued by that at an early age.
I got into sports, I got away from that.
And so I was very fortunate in my, my sports career.
I played hockey and I played collegiately and then I played

(01:40:11):
professionally for a couple years.
And I, I, the last couple years I was playing, I was, I was
overseas in Germany. And when I came home from that,
I really was lost, man. I really didn't know what to do,
what I wanted to do. And oddly enough, I I was given
some lessons to. A kid whose dad was on the the
job in the city that I now work.And he was, we're talking about

(01:40:34):
it. And he said, why don't you come
by the station? And I said, OK, so it's like I
walked into the station and I was right then and there, it was
like, I need to do this. And, and so I think looking back
on that or what I've come to figure out is that the reason
that I wanted to do that is because I saw all the things
that I was missing, right? And, and I kind of hit hit on it

(01:40:55):
earlier. But like, you know, being team
oriented, having a group of people that are pulling together
for a common goal training, you know, and we're all things that
I was very, very drawn to. And the biggest thing is, man,
is, is that I think that, that I, I've always kind of had a
hard of service where I've wanted, I've wanted to give back

(01:41:16):
to people and wanted to serve people, but I really didn't know
what that was about or how to dothat.
And the fire service gave me that piece.
And once I figured out that that's what it was about for me,
I mean, that just took me to a whole nother level of desire to
do the job. And, and like I said, I mean, I
had a coach told me I was a kid.Hey, man, if you want to get to
the next level, you have to be willing to do things that other
people aren't willing to do. And I, and when I look at the

(01:41:39):
fire service, man, I'm like, Hey, man, I am willing to do
things and able to do things that other people aren't willing
to do. And that's why I want to be a
firefighter. So dude, I love it.
And the the greatest part about that question is everyone's
answer is so different. So it's it's, it's cool to get a
little insight. Like literally the brothers back
East, right in Baltimore City are, you know, was your first

(01:42:01):
exposure as a, as a small child.That's, you know, it's amazing.
And now you're literally across the country from those guys,
right, Doing the fucking same job.
That's, that's amazing. All right, so now we know the
why. So what about The Who?
So who has been the most influential person so far in
your fire service career? Doesn't have to be a fireman,
right? But who has influenced you for

(01:42:24):
your fire service career the most as of today?
Yeah, absolutely, man. I mean, I could go a lot of
different ways with this, but I am going to say Captain Ruben
Saavedra is my most influential person thus far in my career.
He was What's a why? For that, yeah, man.

(01:42:44):
Well, he, like I said, I mean, he was my, my probationary
captain on my second rotation. And I think that that he really
set the stage for me as far as saying like, hey man, it's OK to
be great at this job. It's OK to be really into this
job because again, like I, I was, you know, I, I felt like

(01:43:05):
when I got into the job, like I,I was, I was wanting more,
right? It's like, it's like, I want to
train, I want to go to fires, I want to learn this, I want to
learn this, I want to learn this.
And he harnessed a lot of that for me.
And he's, and he's given me a lot of, lot of really great
lessons throughout my career. I talked to him, you know,
weekly or a couple times a week.You know, I and, and I think
some of the lessons I've learnedfrom him are not just about

(01:43:27):
fireground stuff, but also in the way that you treat people
and the way that you build relationships with people and
the way that, that you handle adversity when it comes your way
in our organization or in the fire service.
He's, he is an incredible person.
He's got a great family. And it's kind of crazy 'cause
when I got on the job, his, his son was, you know, just a little

(01:43:47):
kid. I mean, and, and he's now a
freshman at Air Force Academy right now he's like.
Yeah, man, is he still on the job?
Yeah, he's, he's, he is still atthe job.
Yeah. So, so, so he's still a great
resource for me. But I think some of the biggest
lessons I learned from him is that like, hey, man, he created
a culture of high achievers. So he and and he was never

(01:44:10):
afraid to be vulnerable to say like, hey, man, like I'm not in
as good a shape as you guys, butyet we're still going to go do
stairs today, right. Like, and that was something
that the lesson I learned and, and everyone that I worked with
when I was on probation, there is now a captain.
So like six or seven guys that were there at the time.
Everyone of those guys is a captain or in chief.
And I think that speaks to, to who he is because everybody was

(01:44:33):
under his tutelage. And, and again, I, I think that
kind of was a springboard for meinto getting outside of the
organization and, and, and trying to educate myself and
learn more and, and developing other relationships.
And like so other said, I mean like guys like Kevin Fluer and
Tom Hollick and David Rhodes, and it's like these guys that I
have relationships with are because of lessons that I
learned when I was on probation.So yeah, he's definitely most

(01:44:57):
influential for me thus far. That's amazing.
All right, well, so we know the,the, the why The Who, right?
So fire, fire department traditions, we talked about them
kind of briefly in the beginning, right.
So what is your favorite fire department tradition right now?
I mean, we already talked about it a little bit, but to me, the,

(01:45:20):
my favorite traditional fire service is the mission itself.
I, I just think that you, you cannot wholeheartedly be an end
of the job, go get a fireman andnot wholeheartedly believe in
the mission of saving lives, right?
And, and again, like, I'm not saying that we're going to save
everybody, but what we do exist to do is to give everyone the

(01:45:40):
best chance possible to survive.And, you know, I, I think that
one thing that, that we have to realize is that time is our
greatest commodity. And if we can give somebody more
time, time to say goodbye to a level and time to go to, you
know, their son's last baseball game, time to go to a wedding,
time to go to a birthday, time to give them anything that

(01:46:03):
otherwise they wouldn't have gotten.
I think that that to me is the most incredible gift.
And, and to me, that's, that is the, the true tradition of the
fire service, because that's, that's exactly what it's been
doing. As I said, you know, Ben
Franklin, when they they startedthat that union hose company, I
think that's what it's all about.
So on a on a global scale, that's it for me, but on a local

(01:46:24):
scale of the people that work inmy organization will will know
corned beef tacos. I'm.
Sorry if we back up for a second, do you say corned beef
tacos? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So. Sounds horrible, I hate to say.
It right, Well, so, so right. So you work in a fire bar right
next to mine. You don't know what?
It is, yeah. So the reason that like that, I

(01:46:46):
like that tradition is because it's a labor of love, right?
And so you work at, but I workedat one of our very busy
stations. I worked there as a firefighter
for 4 1/2 years. And every Friday we made that
meal. So the whole thing about that
meal was it takes all day to make it cuz guys, everybody's in
the kitchen shredding, shreddingthe meat, you know, smashing the

(01:47:09):
potatoes, mixing it all, making the mix, stuffing the tacos,
frying the tacos, grilling the tacos.
And then the best thing about that is that the, the whole deal
was like no utensils. So you foil the tables, put foil
on the tables layout, you know, 200 tacos and everybody just
goes to town. And the fellowship that comes
with that is incredible. And, and it goes way beyond that

(01:47:30):
because there's plenty of times where like we have we make tacos
like that and then we catch a fire in the middle of night.
You come back at 4:00 in the morning, guys are eating corned
beef tacos, sitting around talking about the fire, having
that fellowship, having a good laugh.
And so to me, like it was just, it's just one of those things
that's like, you can't talk about tradition for me and my
organization without talking about that.

(01:47:51):
And so, yeah, man, that'd be my,that'd be my, my local
tradition. There you go.
So you hear, you heard it here first.
Corned beef Taco. You know, you actually struck a
little chord with me because my first, Excuse me, where I cut my
teeth in the fire service, my first department was back east
in the Baltimore region, right? And we always would do, probably

(01:48:12):
once a month at least, do just abig old fucking thing of blue
crab, right? And we all had picnic tables at
all the houses, and we just linethem up with paper, you know,
steam them, cook them and throw them on there.
And it's the same thing. It was just a fellowship.
You know, everyone's sitting around a picnic table covered
with newspaper, right? Cracking shells, eating crab and
just hollering at each other, right?

(01:48:34):
And it sounds like the same thing, just with corned beef
tacos. I love it.
Yeah. Absolutely, man, absolutely man.
It's that's really where I think, you know, we talk about
the brotherhood, the sister. But I think really what that
comes down to is, is the more intimately that you know someone
that in a time of need that you will be willing to do anything

(01:48:54):
that you can for that person because of how intimately you
know them. And those are the times that you
have these conversations with those people and really get to
know those people on a differentlevel.
And that's why that is such an important tradition to me.
Yeah, it's crazy too. But I mean everyone listening
this is is on the job or either just got on the job or thinking
get on the job and think of things along those lines.
But you know, what the public doesn't understand is like, they

(01:49:18):
know what we will do for a complete stranger, but they have
no idea what we will do for one of our brothers.
Like, and that's why to to a fault sometimes like we will,
you know, we will go in certain circumstances which are
uninhabitable to try to find a brother just because of that,
that bond that you're talking about.
I mean, it's we'll risk, you know, anything for a civilian,

(01:49:39):
but we'll literally risk it all for one of our brothers 100%.
I know, I'm sure you feel the same way.
Absolutely, man. And and again, like it comes
down to risk management that we were talking about earlier, but
it's like, you know, there's there's a guy that that works on
my crew right now. I helped him get on the job.
He's worked with me at my station now for, for a couple

(01:49:59):
years. And you know, he's a, he's a
good friend of mine. I vacation with him.
My daughter is the same, around the same age as his two sons.
And, and so like we, you know, I, I know him intimately, you
know, and, and so we had a fire about a year ago, a year and a
half ago. And I mean, I don't think I've

(01:50:20):
been on very many fires where I was worried interior, you know
what I mean? Like, like, but there was just
something about this fire. I mean, just there's a ton of
fire, not a lot of heat, but just like fire as as tall and as
wide as you can see. And it's as in a commercial
structure. And you know, I'm getting
reports from the, from the chiefand he's like, hey, no, he's

(01:50:43):
like, it doesn't look good. He's like, he's like, I think
we're going to pull you out. And it's like one of those
moments for me where I looked atwhat was happening in there, I
looked at the back of his helmet, I saw his name and I
told myself I was like, no, you need to make a decision.
That's the right decision. Because at the end of the day,

(01:51:03):
there are consequences of the decision, that decisions that we
make. And, and you know him, you know
his family, you know his wife, you know his kids, like don't
make the wrong choice. And and so it's like, man, like
nobody wants to go defensive. Nobody wants to pull out, right?
And ultimately we didn't, we ended up staying interior
because as that's all kind of happening, we started to get a

(01:51:25):
good handle on it. And like, things change very
quickly, but it's like you're having that conversation and
that all comes back to, you know, how well you know somebody
and what you know about that person.
So yeah, you're right, man. Like like you, you will do
anything possible to keep the people you care about safe or or
to get them out of a a situationwhen when they need you.
Yeah. All right.

(01:51:45):
Well, all right. So last question.
This is actually my favorite question for multiple reasons.
So it's not a tradition question, right, But it's
directly related to the fire service.
So if you could snap your fingers, right, and through FM
fucking magic, something changes, right?
Through zero sweat equity and it's immediate change, but can
only be one thing, what would itbe?

(01:52:06):
But more importantly, why would you choose that thing?
Damn it, just going back to whatwe're saying we've been talking
about for the last couple hours,but if I could snap my fingers,
I would remove the ego from the fire service it.
Would love. It and and.
Why? What's your why for the ego?
I know we've talked about it, but let's just drive it home.
Yeah, man, absolutely. I, I think that that ego in the

(01:52:29):
fire service at all levels doesn't allow us to be as
competent or truly as professional as we need to be.
And, and I think that if we would just take a step back and,
and be vulnerable sometimes and look at ourselves and be like,
hey man, like there are things to learn here or Hey, we can
improve on this. The, the, the old adage of,

(01:52:51):
well, hey man, we've been doing it that way forever and it's
always worked for us. Or the one that I hate the most
is, well, I've never been to a fire that's never gone out
right. And you're like, and I'm like,
cool man, like call the water department and have them protect
exposures and take away your salary.
Then I guess because like, we don't need you, right?
So like if we could take away some of our ego when it comes to

(01:53:14):
creating change in the fire service, I think that that
everyone would benefit. Most importantly, the civilians
benefit, but also the fire service, the firefighters
benefit because we're going to be operating at a way higher
level. And as an example, it's like,
hey, man, like I'm sure you, yousee it.
I see it too. But it's like you have a guy
with, you know, let's just say 20 years on the job and he's a

(01:53:37):
backseat firefighter. And so like, when it comes to
training, that guy's like, oh, Idon't need to pull hose, man,
I'm good. I got 20 years of this shit.
I don't, I don't need that. Yeah.
And it's like, bro, put your egoaside because at the end of the
day, man, like, we can still develop skill sets.
You can still improve. And if we just focus on basic

(01:53:58):
stuff, man, like, hey, hey, likethere is something to learn and
in fact, you might enjoy it and then and then turn around and be
like, hey, man, I have somethingto teach.
And so if you don't remove Eaglewhen it comes to that stuff, I
don't think that we can continueto advance.
And like we're saying like, hey,man, like look at the statistics
right now when it comes to project Mayday, when it comes to
search stuff, when it comes to, you know, a lot of the things

(01:54:19):
that that are trending right now.
But, but we have data and we have science that backs up how
we should be acting, how we should be performing tactically,
task level skills that we shouldbe practicing.
And guys are still resistant to that because their egos get in
the way of that. And that's, that's at the the
strategic level, right? That's at the strategic level

(01:54:40):
where where people don't want toput policies in place or change
policies because of that stuff. But most of that I think is, is
at that task level where, well, it's, we've never done that
before, so we don't need to do that now, right?
So. And that's, that's my biggest,
that's my pet peeve. You like, we've always done it
this way. It's OK, cool, you know, right?

(01:55:02):
Yeah, Matt. So, so at the end of the day,
man, I think if we could remove Eagle and and admit that we're
not good at something, we're going to learn more, we're going
to train more, we're going to grow more.
And in turn, we're going to be better.
We're going to be safer, we'll be more efficient, we're more
effective. And that's a way better fire
service at the end of the day. I love it.
Well, listen, we're at and we'reknocking on the door of two

(01:55:23):
hours right now. I know we could talk for another
2. So we'll just we'll we'll
sidebar everything for another episode and we'll pick a great
one, one of your topics from your company.
How's that sound for the next time?
Awesome man, I really appreciatethe opportunity.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, thank you so much
for your time, your knowledge, right?
Just just preaching the good word and and encouraging guys,

(01:55:45):
right? It's, it's OK to freaking love
the job. That's what this podcast is
about. Not only is it OK to love the
job, but guess what? Freaking learn something right?
And more importantly, teach it to the guy underneath you,
right? Just keep spreading the
knowledge. There is no pride in holding on
to something to be the guy. And what Skip said pretty much
the entire episode and then you rounded off with it.

(01:56:06):
Drop your fucking egos, right? Leave them at the door, Learn
something new every single day and just go out there and be the
best freaking fireman you can be.
And I bet you your job would be a lot more enjoyable.
So again, brother, thank you so much for spending with us.
It's been, it's been a pleasure on my end for sure.
And is there anything you want to leave the audience with
before we we roll out? I mean, I, I appreciate the

(01:56:27):
opportunity. Just, you know, the fire service
is an incredible thing and it will take you to incredible
places and, and meet incredible people that you get to do
awesome stuff with if you let it.
So enjoy it and make the most ofit because it, it certainly goes
by very fast. So.
Thank you very much. I love it.
All right, my brother. We'll listen.

(01:56:49):
Thank you again. And everyone else will catch you
on the next episode. Have a great night.
Thank you. Thanks for joining us.
Always remember, the most important grab you'll make in
your fire service career is saving a complacent firefighter
from themselves. Catch you next episode.