Leading from the Front: Insights from Battalion Chief Jamie Howarth

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back everybody, it's Copper State Fireman Podcast.
This podcast is for firemen burning the ships of
complacency, laziness and excuses for promoting love and
passion for the job, encouragingeagerness and mastering the
craft of the fire service. The information, opinions,
values, recommendations and ideas are the hosts and

(00:20):
individuals on this podcast and are not affiliated with the
organization's fire departments and companies the individuals
work for. This podcast is for general
information use only. Sponsored and endorsed by the
Copper State fools. Let's go.
Welcome back everybody. So we're in season 2 of Copper
State Fireman Podcast and I'm here with Battalion Chief Jamie

(00:42):
Howarth. She's got over 20 years in the
American Fire service. She's a operations chief right
now in the field with the boys doing the hard work.
She's here to talk about leadership today.
So we have a lot to do. She's got bunch of different
theories I've never heard of andher own podcast and we'll get
into all that later. But it's super exciting.
I make, I'm excited for this fora couple reasons.

(01:04):
So number one, first female fireman on the podcast, which is
amazing. Get some right.
Second is first video ever. So unfortunately, now you guys
are going to know how ugly I am,but it's OK.
Battalion Chief Howarth, welcometo the show.
Thank you very much for taking your time out this evening.
Let's just kind of get into it right now.
So you work for a fire department, I believe probably

(01:25):
within the top 25 of the nation right now, if I remember
correctly. So just tell us real quick about
the department you work for and kind of your role, how you fit
into the department right now. OK, yes, we, I work for a large
metropolitan department as you described.
We have over 30 stations. The population's around 550,000.

(01:49):
So we're, we're pretty busy department.
I am currently a Battalion Chiefin the operations Bureau.
I am assigned to overseas 7 stations.
And I really have worked my way up through my career
strategically to stay in the field and be with the people
because I feel like that's really where the meat and the

(02:11):
potatoes and, and the fire service grows and, and becomes
what it is. So that is AI have purposefully
done that with my career and been purposeful with my steps
because I wanted to work my way up through the ranks and I
wanted to be involved with that decision making and get that
experience. That's, that's amazing because

(02:32):
we always talk about the, the firemens Fire Chief, right?
So we always want the Battalion Chief not only to grow up in the
department we work for and make sure that the listeners knows
you've been with the department.You now over 20 years, you
started as a fireman and worked your way through every rank all
the way up to the Battalion Chief in your current
department, correct? That's correct.
Yep. So I mean, so now you have one

(02:53):
of the warriors up there lookingout for the guys that has been
in the field the entire time, not those admin chiefs.
And that's that's what we're looking for.
And that's why we're going to sit down and talk about the
leadership style that Battalion Chief Howarth possesses because
it's different. It's different than anything
I've ever heard of and it's super interesting.
So it's going to be enjoyable. So before we get into your

(03:14):
leadership, let's talk about why.
Why did you even get involved inthe fire service?
So were you bit by the bug? Is it than that little mini you
wanted to do way back in the day?
Tell the audience why you becamea fireman to start with.
OK, so I did, I'm going to just correct it a little bit.
I did spend 2 years of training,which I thought was a really
good experience as well. So, and I know that you know

(03:35):
that because you are also assigned to training.
I feel like it's something that you have to do to get yourself
connected from that way as well.Ever since I was in
kindergarten, I want to be a police officer.
No. Yes, yes.
So what happened what what? What changed you down the
correct career path right now? I got pulled over on the

(03:58):
Beltway. There you go by one of your
future brothers, right? Yeah, so actually I was a future
sister and she was having a really rough day and she pulled
me over. I was actually going from
Community College to work, So I was in Community College full
time. I was working full time and I
was in a hurry to get to work. So, I mean, I guess it is

(04:19):
partially my fault. So when she pulled me over, she
gave me a lot of tickets. And I felt it was in my best
interest to really not get hammered in court by going to
like a driver retraining program.
So I signed up for one that the county has.
It was it was in Prince George'sCounty.

(04:40):
And I walked into this Firehouseand I just saw people running
around in shorts and AT shirt and I was like, what is
happening? This looks like fun.
Yeah, Who are all these people? It's almost like, oh, we
volunteer here. And I was like, people volunteer
to run into buildings like that sounds crazy.

(05:00):
Now, I was 17 at the time. I just not really been exposed
to the fireside because I'd always had my heart set on the
police side. So it just, it just never dawned
on me to even try out the fire department.
And I took classes there for twoweeks and I got to know some of
the guys there. They talked me into
volunteering. And I'm like, come on, you can

(05:21):
just try it, right? And I was like, actually, it's
not a bad idea. You can kind of try before you
buy. You can't do that with the
police. Like you have to be 21.
I was only 17. So I'm like, it's along the same
lines of what I want to do. Like I am not a dust person.
I need, I get bored. And I needed a job where I was

(05:41):
not going to get bored. I like to be outside.
I like to be around people. So I just, I joined and I fell
in love with it. The department I work for now is
I, I applied to two departments at the same time and the
department I work for now hired me first.

(06:02):
And that's how I ended up where I am.
So for me, it's actually probably the best return on
investment I have gotten in A and a ticket, right?
So like, I feel like it paid me.It's paid me in dividends over
the years because I don't think I would have ever gone down this
path. It lit being pulled over on the
Beltway literally changed my life.

(06:22):
And it's amazing to me, the journey that I've been on.
I can't believe that my career side, I've been doing it for 20
years and 25 years total. It's crazy.
Yeah, that's amazing. And what a what a great story, a
path that you're going to go down and then accidentally
basically got tripped into the best thing that probably ever
happened to you career wise. Yes, you can now look at you now

(06:43):
your upper management towards the tail end of your career.
You know, possibilities are endless.
So we know we know the why now. So let's learn a little bit
about your fire department. He said it's a major metro fire
department, right. So when they start is a
combination all career volunteerkind of breakdown the system and
then for guys listening, becauseI love how everything's

(07:05):
different from coast to coast. Explain to listeners, maybe your
surrounding cities and counties around you, what kind of
relationship you guys have with them.
Yes, our combination department,we do have combination stations.
Not all of them are combination,but we do have quite a few.
I actually have quite a few in the battalion that I supervise

(07:25):
and it is definitely a differentdynamic, but one that can be
worked out if you approach it correctly with a good attitude.
We do have similar jurisdictionsaround us that are of same size.
I would say probably one of the things that is really unique
about where I work is we have a lot of different disciplines.

(07:48):
So we have fire investigations, we have Marine, we have special
OPS. So we we have a lot of diversity
when it comes to the stuff that we can do in the field and for
operations. We also have a large airport in
our jurisdiction and we also have military bases in our

(08:09):
jurisdiction. And that really could be
complex, but our department withthose surrounding jurisdictions
work really well together because of our automatic mutual
aid. When they come into our county,
you know, they follow our rules.And when we go to their
jurisdiction, we follow their rules.
And and it it's worked out so far for the most part.

(08:31):
I haven't really had to get intoanybody's ass about not
following the rules, but you know it, It works itself out.
Good. So now when you still on your
department, so when you get dispatched, let's just say our
our normal bread and butter house fire, what do you get
besides yourself? Obviously you're a responding
Battalion Chief. So what is your initial

(08:52):
assignment on a working house fire?
5 engines, 2 trucks, a Rescue Squad, medic units, safety.
We also get 2 battalion chiefs. OK.
So with the two battalions, since we're talking on that
leadership role, so I'm assumingfirst battalion is going to be
the initial incident commander. So what's, or correct me if I'm
wrong, or what's that second battalion doing then?

(09:15):
They're going to work. Oh yeah.
Is that right? Yeah.
So is that it? Would that would actually be an
interior sector for you guys? How's that work?
It is. So the first Battalion Chief is
the one that is going to be setting up command and we'll be
running the incident and route to the call.
They're adjusting the run order cuz we're SOG based, not NEMS
based, which I think a majority of the country is SOG based now.

(09:35):
It's the best approach for community, for community
responses. And the second Battalion Chief,
it depends on the size and the complexity of the incident,
right. So the second Battalion Chief
could come in and could support the first Battalion Chief.
But studies have shown that the second Battalion Chief actually
going inside and being a division supervisor and being

(09:57):
able to give that feedback and overseeing what's actually
happening inside is, is safer and is a better approach because
those officers and those crews are they're busy doing work.
So it's easier for that supervisor to be able to really
give the information back to that first Battalion Chief who
understands kind of like exactlywhat they're looking for and can

(10:19):
give them complete can reports. I always bring a hook with me.
What because. You're a good fireman.
You always need lots of hooks, you know that, right?
I know and a lot there are some battalion chiefs who like think
it's not needed, but I'm not going into any structure fire
without a tool. It it's just, it doesn't feel

(10:40):
right to me and something could happen to me also while I'm in
there. And plus it is it is fun to
still be able to do some work even at this level, so.
That's amazing. So explain to the audience that
doesn't know an SOG approach. So for your current department,
is it predetermined running assignments?
How's that work? Yeah.

(11:01):
So it is predetermined running assignments.
We do have automatic vehicle locators or Avls and so it
determines basically the run order even with our automatic
mutual aid. Basically it's just a recipe of
what they're going to do. Previously, and I've actually
operated under both systems. So the previous system was the
first officer would arrive on location and when as the

(11:23):
apparatus was coming in, they didn't know what they were going
to do. They would arrive on location,
they would be parked in like some wonky place and then you
get bottlenecking and it now puts all of that on the first
two officer water supply. And if you're enrolled water
supply, it's like a whole notheranimal.
And then it's like, OK, first doengine, you're going to go do

(11:44):
this and 2nd do engine, you're going to go do this.
And it's very micromanaging. The SO GS are better.
It actually they started out with a blue card.
I'm trying to I'm like drawing ablank on his name right now but
there is blue. Person.
Thank you. That's it.
Yeah, it's a Phoenix guy. Yeah.
Very popular cheat. Yes.

(12:05):
Yeah. Yes, So Phoenix really was the
spearhead for that and put out community community policing.
See, it's like it's still in there community, like community
responses for firefighting because most of the stuff that
we respond to is not going to turn into a NEMS level stuff

(12:26):
where you're going to have branches and take out, you know,
sheaths. Swigs and leaves and everything
else that goes with the. All the crazy stuff, yes, and it
actually is efficient, safe and and quick way to alleviate the
issue. And it also sets the scene up

(12:46):
for success right away. Now you can deviate from the SO
GS, but there has to be a good reason why you're deviating.
Obviously not all structure fires are different.
Even your normal structure firesare not normal structure fires.
We have to approach them withoutcomplacency.
Our first two engine obviously they they're going to get the
first hydrant, they're going to be our tactical command is what

(13:08):
we call them and they are in command on location.
They do their BIR, their 360, their basement report, 2nd 2
engine picks up their line. 3rd 2 engine is writ for two
engines, secondary water supply,52 engine picks up their line.
So it's pretty straightforward like you need those assets in
place. We actually prior to SOG is the

(13:29):
2nd water supply never got picked up like it was never even
a thing because by the time those engines got there, they're
just stuck somewhere and they'renot parked in the right place.
They weren't looking for a secondary hydrant or secondary
water source. So in the change was really, you
know, we don't like change. It's just as it is just a
nature, it's a nature response that we just do not like change.

(13:53):
But I came from a system that did S, that did the Sogs because
when I volunteered, that's, thatwas already a thing.
So I'm like, OK, finally, like we finally have Sogs.
This is really great. But some people were just so
stuck in their ways. They're like, oh, we don't wanna
be like those other departments.We don't, we don't wanna, we
don't. Just because they do it doesn't
mean we have to do it. But the bottom line is it's a

(14:14):
best practice. Yeah, what's what's best for a
customer in? Life, yes.
And it is a best practice that is supports the mission,
supports the community and supports our people.
And once they figured out that it actually allows them to be
more aggressive at firefighting,it got more They were definitely
more open to doing it because now they don't have to stay in

(14:35):
the front yard or wait for somebody to tell them what to
do. They could go to work right
away. And in the absence of a
Battalion Chief, Battalion Chiefarrives on location, we do a
transfer of command and then we drive the incident from there.
Is that a guarantee? Is let me ask you in your
personal opinion, when you arrive on scene, everything's

(14:55):
going like gangbusters. The boys are working,
everything's good. Is that something you're still
going to assume command or is that like, hey, I'll just leave
it with that officer, how does how do you feel on that?
Yeah, I prefer the transfer of command for two reasons.
One, because conditions can change quickly, and I want to
make sure that it's established so that we can respond to that

(15:16):
if something does change. And two, because it takes the
weight of that off of the first officer so that they can focus
on actual firefighting overhaul search, the stuff that they need
to be focusing on without worrying about all the noise and
the stuff that's outside. And my job is also for
accountability. Our accountability is not a

(15:37):
passport system. We do have what they call
passports or we call them PAT tags.
They get put on the apparatus first thing in the morning.
The officer just verifies they're on there.
But when I arrive on location, my accountability is based on a
command board. So I know accountability is good
if somebody falls through the floor.
If somebody gets lost, I have a good idea of where they were

(15:58):
operating. And it just puts us in a good
position to have one person thatis over the incident.
And also when you start to get into the complexity of it,
having that experienced officer to oversee it and take some of
that load off is really it's best for everyone.
Right, absolutely. So when you assume command, so

(16:19):
that sounds good because it sounds like whoever that
suppression officer is initiallyrunning that fire, he knows for
a fact that when the Battalion Chief shows up, they're going to
assume command, they're going totake that turret off his plate,
he can go back to work and then you all can go to work and
organize from there. So is since that's kind of
pretty much a guarantee, does itcut down on the radio chatter or

(16:43):
how does how does that work whenthat transfer happens?
Is it a entire ordeal or are youable to keep track of those
units while you're responding? Because I'm not sure if you have
an aid or not with you. No, OK.
I do not have an aid. I feel like my driving skills
are really good now. Like I really feel I'm going to
knock on wood for that though, because I work in a couple days

(17:06):
and I want to make sure I'm not like whatever, oh, see, I just
knocked on my table and now my dog thinks somebody's at the
door. I can actually tell you, I could
verbatim tell you what my transfer command usually is when
we are responding because we do not have an aid.
I am driving. If somebody wants to add to the
box, they have to ask permission.
So like, let's say somebody cameavailable in their first due,

(17:30):
they have to call me so that I can give the new running order.
So everybody knows what their assignment is.
So in route, I have my I don't have my CAD screen right now
because there's some stuff goingon with just the systems that
are work. But and so I do temporarily have
an aid and it's spoiling me, butthat's like a whole another
whole another story. So going down the road, yes, I'm

(17:52):
responding, I deal with the running order and I deal with
communications. Their job is to deal with
assigning those units or just telling them, just coordinating
with them for fire attack. And I'll give you an example, 1
1/2 story single family dwelling, you have fire in the
basement. Now RSOG says that on normal

(18:14):
circumstances, the 1st 2 engine,1st 2 truck and 2nd 2 engine are
side alpha and the fourth do and5th do usually go to side
Charlie. However, if it's a basement fire
and we have access to the basement, we're going to take
that first line of the Charlie side and they have to coordinate
with 4th and 5th 2 or even that second line to get them onto the

(18:36):
first floor once they have a line in place in the basement.
So that's kind of that's like one example of a change that
could happen that they have to coordinate.
I don't run that from the car. They are the ones responsible
for that. I can make corrections if I
believe that it's going to be something that's going to be
dangerous. For example, they do their 360
and they don't tell me if there is a basement or if there are

(18:57):
conditions in the basement, thenI have to call and remind them
of that. But I'm not actually running
that incident because I'm not there.
I don't see the conditions that they see.
I just need to listen up and make sure that the benchmarks
that need to be reached for safety are done and and they get
to go to work. But I do reassign units if they

(19:17):
come available from the first two, then I, I either say yes or
no. If I say yes, then I have to
tell everybody to stand by for the new running order and I have
to run that down prior to arrival.
When I arrival location, I can tell you my, my typical transfer
of command is battalion X is on location.
Engine one. I have you with two personnel

(19:38):
operating on the 1st floor. I have you with truck one.
They're also operating on the 1st floor with three personnel.
If that's correct, give me a, give me a Cam for transfer of
command so they'll come back to me.
So I, I mean, you know how many people are usually, usually
riding on apparatus, right? So it's pretty easy for me to
track a couple engines in a truck going down the road before
I arrive on location. If it's not correct and I got it

(20:00):
wrong, it's their job to correctme.
Like let's say there was a volunteer on that engine and
they actually had three versus 2and I just missed it.
So normally it's, Yep, that's correct.
They give me conditions, actions, needs, and then I
transfer command to me and then I take over the incident.
So it's pretty quick. Yeah, that seems super
seamlessly. And I know a lot of guys lately
have been really complaining about not necessarily a transfer

(20:23):
command, but just the entire encompassment of the
micromanaging from the initial IC.
If that was a Lieutenant, a captain or Battalion Chief on
scene of breaking down, I want you to do ABC in this exact
order. So it's, it's nice to hear how
smooth your system runs and exactly kind of how it works.

(20:44):
So you've been through this whole process.
You've went through all those ranks.
You've been a Lieutenant on the suppression side, a captain on
the suppression side. And then now you're still a
responding Battalion Chief. So let's kind of get into the
mean potatoes. So obviously you've figured out
the leadership thing, right? You've been through the paces.
I'm going to say yes right now. You can disagree with me.
OK, I think there's, I think there's always stuff to figure

(21:07):
out, right? Like every time I think I have
something figured out, I don't have it figured out at all and I
have to adapt so. But with with figuring
everything out, so you went froma management from a Lieutenant
and a captain right all the way to an upper management, I would
consider you. What is that like when it comes
down to that leadership role? So obviously we all understand

(21:30):
the battalion chief's responsibility, but what is your
outlook on leadership? What do you feel like you're
good at that makes you successful in your position?
And then maybe even tell the listeners what you maybe
struggled with and how you kind of overcame that when it comes
down to your leadership. But then I really want to get
into your culture talk. And you know what?
I'm, you know where I'm leading on that.

(21:51):
One yes. Let's start with the transition
from riding the front seat of a fire engine to being by yourself
in a car is a really hard, it's a really hard transition.
I like being around people. Come on, it's it's fun to be in
the station. It's fun to be around, you know,
your coworkers and you start to really gel with them.

(22:12):
And now I am by myself. I have a lot more people I'm
responsible for, but you just don't.
You're not in that. You're not in that crew, you
know, and it's, it's kind of hard for me to view that when I
walk in. It's like, oh, the chief is
here. Like that's a barrier that I
have to work to break down. So they feel comfortable having
conversations with me. I want to learn who they are and

(22:34):
what they're about because I need to know what their
strengths and weaknesses are as well.
So I could use them to my advantage on the fire ground.
And that really comes down mostly to my officers.
And this is where kind of what you were talking about with
micromanaging comes in. I think the hardest transition
for me, and you talked about like the direction of the
Battalion Chief. Some people don't make this

(22:55):
transition because it's what they've been used to.
I was riding the front seat of afire engine as a as a supervisor
on an engine company for 11 years.
It was 11 years before I promoted to Battalion Chief.
So like a long time. And then now I was then I was in
charge of a crew where you are tasks oriented.

(23:15):
So I have my task. My job is to determine how that
task gets done. And now I'm objective oriented.
So my job is to make sure that the objectives happen.
It's your job as the company officer, determine how that
happens. So I just know that I need a
search. I'm not going to tell you
exactly how to do that. Your job as a company officer is

(23:36):
to determine that. But it's so hard to shut off
that part of your brain because you did it for so long.
And I know when I first got promoted, it was hard for me to
kind of click out of that. But I had to really force myself
to do it. Because then your crew members
or your, your teams, they think that you don't trust them.
And that's breaking down kind ofwhat you're trying to build up.

(23:56):
And it's not because you don't trust them, it's just because
the job is so different. And changing from that task
orientation to that objective is, is hard.
But that I think that like explains a little bit why some
of some chiefs, I think that maybe they don't recognize it.
They're they don't have the 360 view of themselves or the

(24:18):
self-awareness to go, OK, something is not right.
Or maybe mentors, right. I had a mentor tell like
literally tell me that. So somebody that's really well
respected, somebody who really invested a lot of time in me,
really showed me the right way to do it.
And I feel like I was open for that and it allowed me to get

(24:39):
there a little bit quicker. Yeah.
So I think that's where it comesdown to people like go through
that ladder, that 24 foot ladder, take it over to that
Bravo side up too far, bring it back.
And they just get so stuck in that.
And another reason micromanaginghappens is because it's a thing
they can control when they feel out of control.

(25:00):
You know, it's and it's absolutely true because again,
I'm not in the position you're in, but it must be difficult,
especially being a suppression officer for so long to be on the
outs. And I mean on the outs by
literally you're physically outside watching, you know, and
it's and I know I would strugglewith that just to because kind

(25:20):
of what you alluded to before, first of all, you want to go to
work, you you miss that aspect. And then from what you're seeing
compared to what the guys conditions are interior never
match right. We all know that all the way
around. And it's one of those things
where, and I'm sure, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure there's
been many moments in your careerwhere you're going basically
going, what the fuck are they doing right now?
Like, come on, they got like, like the clock's ticking, boys.

(25:43):
Like you don't have much longer until I'm, I might have to, you
know, pull you out or whatever it was that was that a big issue
for you. So I think the second Battalion
Chief helps minimize the conditions inferior versus the
the conditions I'm seeing exterior.
And we, I feel like we do a goodjob communicating those
conditions. And it comes down to that can
report, which we emphasize quitea bit in our jurisdiction

(26:07):
because it really gives us the best idea of the conditions they
have inside, what they're doing to correct them and if they need
anything. How many times have you ended up
on like, let's say that 1 1/2 story, we have like 4 crews on
the second floor. Yeah, and 2 1/2 of them are on
the stairs. Right.
Yes, great. And it's like we don't need any
more people up here. Stop sending them to us.

(26:29):
I think the CAN report really helps with that in that Second
Battalion Chief to be able to really tell what see the bigger
picture and give us that view ofof the the conditions interior
and kind of what they need from that standpoint, because they're
seeing it from the objective perspective and not the task
perspective. And I think that does make a
difference. I already forgot the other thing

(26:52):
you were. Asking me.
It's all right. You.
You actually covered everything already.
So, OK, awesome. Last question on kind of that
aspect of your your role, because I know your East Coast
fire department and so East Coast is typically more
traditional than the West Coast where I am right now.
So I know of a lot of departments back east that when

(27:14):
the Battalion Chief comes, the Battalion Chief only comes to
the captain's shift, right, or whatever the case might be.
But the battalion would pick like a single officer that they
are going to relay their information to and they expect
that captain typically right, todelay it or relay it down to the
lieutenant's on the other ship. Is that the same way you operate
or do you like to visit every station, every officer, every

(27:37):
crew? How do you kind of like do your
daily or or your needs of your battalion when you're working?
So on a typical work day and a lot of stuff comes up.
So let's say it's like a a fairly calm work day.
I communicate with my crews by sending out a briefing via
e-mail in the morning. That briefing is like kind of

(27:58):
what each station is assigned todo.
If there's something on the calendar for them, it says what
are battalion level training is going to be for that day.
I do have a training schedule because I want us all working
towards the same goal. I'm not really, I'm responsible
for the schedule, but I've actually delegated it out to a
captain for them and another Lieutenant to actually make the
schedule. And then they delegate it to

(28:20):
other officers, like who's goingto be in charge of it.
But we have something that we are going to train on every
shift. And so everybody is aware we're
all on the same page of what that's going to be.
There are some instances where acrew has needs to work a little
bit more on something else and I'll make adjustments for them.
And in that case, but then I will go to the stations and try

(28:43):
and kind of catch them when they're training so I can be in
it a little bit and just see howthey're performing.
And also just so they get to know me a little better and just
to see my face. I don't think that there would
be a time that I wouldn't visit a station.
I don't make it to all of them every shift because it's just
busy. But I do try to invest in all of

(29:04):
my officers. I think it's really important to
do that because ultimately they're working for me
operationally, and I want to make sure that we're all on the
same page and that my expectations are clear for them.
Because if you don't have clear expectations, then it's going to
go off the rails real quick. And I feel like people just work
better when they know what you want from them.

(29:26):
Actually. You just have to tell us what
you want. And you can't hold anybody
accountable until you give them your expectations because I
mean, shame on us if we expect something now somebody and not
actually tell them. And that's kind of old school
American fire service. I mean, that's how we, when you
came into the system, when I came in the system is kind of
the same way. It was just you do what you're

(29:46):
told and you don't question, youdon't do anything about it.
So it's just it's just differentnow.
So it. Is different now.
Yeah, it is. It is way different.
Now, whether we like it or not, right like.
Ever evolving now. Society is evolving and what
we're hiring is evolving. Changing.
It is changing and again it goesback to that where we don't like

(30:09):
change. We have to start to adapt to it
so that we can have high performing teams because that is
my objective. I want high performing teams.
When my OPS chief shows up to something, I want him to trust
that my people and I are going to be doing what we're supposed
to be and he doesn't have to worry about us.
And it's it's constant work to get that well oiled machine.

(30:31):
But here's the problem is that 25 years ago I was actually an
anomaly because a majority of the firefighters were second
generation firefighters. Has been exposed to the fire
service for so long, really grewup in a tight knit community
because people were closer to home and now people work further

(30:52):
away. I mean, we have some people that
fly in for their shifts because we work 2472 and the dog just
did something ridiculous anyway who who fly in And we have a lot
more first generation firefighters and people who just
were raised in different backgrounds.
So I know that this is somethingthat you want us to get into as

(31:14):
far as like the culture of the fire service and that culture
has changed because people are commuting.
We don't have that same type netcommunity that is in those same
stations with the same backgrounds, the same beliefs
and like, oh, I remember John's mom, she beat my ass when she
was when I was little, you know,and she'll come up here and

(31:35):
she'll do it again, you know, It's just you don't know their
families like they, like we did 25 years ago.
I do think if you get, especially when they first come
into the department, so you haveto adjust based on the fact that
you have so many different backgrounds.
And if you think about what culture is, culture is a system

(31:58):
of beliefs based on religion, ethnicity, background, you know,
the community, they grew up in social economic classes.
And I was actually, I was flyingout to a leadership conference
where I was speaking in Texas and I sat, I ended up sitting in
the middle. My husband took the window seat

(32:19):
for like the first time ever. He he usually takes one for the
team. So this older gentleman sits
next to me and I'm not really talkative on the plane.
My husband will talk to anybody for hours.
And I'm in the middle of going over my presentation and he's a
scholar. And so he's kind of looking over

(32:39):
at my presentation. And he was like, isn't culture
in the fire service just a little different?
And I was like, tell me how, like what is different about it?
And we started talking and he's like, well, technically you're a
metaculture. And I was mind blown by it
because we're literally approaching the fire service as
a culture with people that have similar backgrounds.

(33:02):
And we're technically a metaculture.
And what a metaculture means is we're taking people from
different backgrounds. But the fire service does have
traditions and the fire service does have, we have just things
in place that we that are good for the fire service that kind
of root us, right? And we're taking those people
and creating our own traditions,but with different backgrounds

(33:25):
of people. And that's where it gets
complicated because if you approach it with people who have
the same background, who grew upin the fire service versus
people who, you know, they just wake up one day and they were
working wherever and they're like, you know what, today I
think I'm going to be a fireman.Like that's what I'm going to
do. So it's just the metaculture

(33:46):
approach was something that was like a light bulb that went off
in my brain and I had already had stuff in place with my
leadership style that address that.
But it was really nice to put a name to it and to be able to
explain it to other people why it's different and why a lot of
times traditional culture approaches just don't work

(34:07):
because we're the background is so different now.
So explain to myself right and the and the listeners.
So have we always been in metaculture or is that something
that we've evolved into because of the lack of generational
firemen kind of deal? I think it is something that we
involved, we evolved into, I do see.
So it's two things. One, we still have a lot of

(34:30):
generational firefighters. I am a first generation
firefighter, but 25 years ago the the American Fire Service
was smaller. Like we've grown exponentially
just because of the demand of the communities and that growth.
There wasn't enough generationalfirefighters to grow into that,
into those positions. So as the American Fire Service

(34:52):
has grown, it has seeked out individuals who wanted to go to
work like I did and and not be bored.
I don't think that's the reason for everybody, but that's my
reason. And and they want to work with
their hands. They want to work with the
community. They like the idea of being in a
team and have a team approach, but they don't have the same be

(35:15):
seen and not heard mentality. And the new generation of
firefighters, especially this first generation firefighters,
the difference is just approaching them with like,
you're going to stand in a corner and you're not going to
talk. It makes them feel excluded.
And for me, any time that that happens, I just think to myself,

(35:38):
OK, so you're excluding them from a team, which is by
definition, like the opposite ofwhat you should be doing for a
team. And you're wasting so much time
where you could be training themand growing them and to what
inevitably they're going to become, which is the future of
the fire service. And trust me, I am not saying

(36:01):
that we need to change how we are holding people accountable.
I actually think it's more important now more than ever
that we hold people accountable because we have to have
everybody on the same page. And we need to shift our focus
to to training and to ensuring they're a part of that team so

(36:23):
when shit does hit the fan, theyare ready to go.
Right. So is it your opinion, right?
Is it more challenging or is it easier?
Yeah, I know it's I know it's different because I feel like
you're going to say, Steve, it'sdifferent, right?
Which I know that, right. But where are you leading?
Do you, is that more of your jamor not?

(36:44):
Let's put it that way, where you're, where you're evolving
into your career now it, do you find it easier for this meta
culture or would it be easier ifyou're in the same position, if
you're back in the day with the old school Firehouse culture?
Old school Firehouse culture wasand still in a lot of ways it is

(37:05):
you tell them you're going to godo a why because I said so and
they go do a, the current fire service in the direction we're
heading. And, and this is me as well.
I think it's one of the reasons why I understand it is they want
to know the why behind it. And I actually think it makes us
better responders, better firefighters, and it helps us to

(37:26):
troubleshoot stuff better when we get into trouble.
It is not easier. It just the leadership style
because I mean, think about it, you're standing there with six
guys and those guys are like, hey, I need you to go do this.
And they literally are blindly like, OK, that's what we're
going to do. And now today it's I need you to

(37:46):
go do this. And it's not because they're
questioning your authority. They genuinely want to know why
and there is that makes it more challenging because we have
gotten away from having hard conversations and because of
social media and because of texting and, and the way that
this new generation is being raised like that face to face

(38:09):
interaction is not something that they're used to.
It's uncomfortable. And we have to get back to being
uncomfortable and having those hard conversations to ensure
everyone's on the same page and investing in them so that we can
get them up to par as quickly and efficiently and safely as we
can. Obviously, we are a a response

(38:30):
organization. We're paramilitary, and there's
a time and a place for the Y. If we're in the middle of the
thick of it and I'm commanded, I'm telling you to go do
something. Unless it's a safety issue, you
better go do it. And I would expect the same out
of me when I was on the engine. You know, if you make a
recommendation for me, if I havean engine company that's in

(38:51):
place to do the work and I assign another engine company, I
allow for them to call on the radio and say, hey, we're in the
position to do that. We have the line in place.
We're requesting to take that assignment, which most of the
time is better. So yes, of course I'll do that.
But to just go do whatever that's not supporting our
objectives to get us to the end game and to put the fire out is

(39:14):
also not appropriate. So during operational times we
really have to really have to focus on that chain of command
and non operational times I think it's important to allow
people to see the job from different lenses.
In my department you get hired, we have an 18 month probationary
period and at year five you can put in for promotion.

(39:37):
That's a very short period of time from the time you get off
probation to the time that you sit for the test.
And if we waste 18 months telling them to stand in a
corner, we get, we'll get mad when they score really well in
the test because they just do well on tests and they sit in
the front, see that fire engine,it's like, well, they feel lost.
Well, how did we leaders, how did we help them get to that

(40:01):
point? And you can't be afraid that
they're going to take over your job.
Our our job is to train them to take over those positions as we
grow. And I, I feel like I know this
from personal experience. When I permitted to Lieutenant,
I really did feel lost in the sauce.
We just didn't have anything in place.

(40:21):
And it was still a part of that.We still had a lot of the be
seen and not heard mentality. And it, it made me feel like,
like I'm here. I really want to work and I want
to understand and I want to put the grid in.
But I, I don't have the support or I'm, you know, you're wasting

(40:42):
your time on just trying to makeme feel bad about myself.
So we have changed. Promoting to captain is
different. Like you, you're overseeing a
station. But the job itself, responding
on calls, that doesn't really change when you get to Battalion
Chief. It is the hardest transition
that I've had in my career and we have a great program in place

(41:06):
with mentors and OJT that reallymakes sure that you're up to
par. And they actually require that
the volunteer chiefs perform thesame program as far as SEM labs
and things like that because they're doing they're doing the
job also. And that makes a big difference,
because if you're going to do it, you have to be held to the

(41:29):
same standard. Exactly, yeah, if you're getting
paid or not, you're still there to perform the same task, so.
I know I didn't want to say like, we're doing the same job
because I see that on a Facebookgroup and I'm like, I don't even
want to say that out loud because I'm afraid it's going
to, you know what it is. But I mean, yes, if you want to
show up and and do this, you're going to need to be proficient

(41:52):
because it's not a game. It's a very serious work that we
do and you have to put the effort into it.
And it is getting harder and harder for volunteers to do that
again because they work further from home and the hours of
training is significantly more than it used to be and it's
harder for them to keep up with it.
And now we've raised the standard saying if we expect

(42:12):
these firefighters to meet that level, then we expect you to
meet that level too, which is I think it's a better way to do
it. Yeah, and absolutely.
And it's, it's funny because most departments have an issue
with getting guys just to be employed as career firemen,
right? Forget do it for free.
I mean, there's I, I find it interesting that the volunteer

(42:37):
system hasn't completely abolished since like COVID,
basically just because it seems like everything's more
expensive. Everyone's working farther,
longer, Everything else is, it'sgot to be difficult.
How difficult is it for you in your leadership role, especially
on the fire ground, when you transition into these volunteer
chiefs or officers? Is it pretty seamless because of

(42:57):
what you guys have in place or is that kind of like a 5050 shot
with those guys? No, we have very, our policies
and procedures are very clear. Our just like we were talking
about with expectations. Our OPS chief is excellent at
ensuring that we know his expectations and the policies

(43:22):
that he creates are based off ofthings they're based off of of
experiences. He's got so much experience.
He's brilliant at what he does and he holds people accountable.
There's no two ways about it. It's one of the things I think I
like the most about him is because we should expect that
out of people. And so the policy for us to just

(43:46):
give a little insight is as the career Battalion Chief, I'm
ultimately responsible until a higher ranking officer gets
there. I can still be in command, but
the responsibility always shiftsto the senior officer, right?
So if the shift commander comes or he comes on calls and he does
run a lot of calls, I can still be in command of it.

(44:08):
But he's still, he would be responsible when it comes to the
volunteer chiefs. If if we're running a house
fire, it automatically it transfers to me and so they
don't keep it, it transfers to me.
It should transfer to me for anyof the calls that I respond on.
But I think it does depend on who the volunteer chief is and

(44:30):
the situation. I don't always take command from
them for gas leaks or like odor of smoke.
But I do say that I'm on location and that I will be out
at the command post. So I'm.
There. With them and I think that's
good for their growth and for their experiences.
We have great, we have some great volunteer chiefs, great

(44:52):
volunteers period that do a really good job and show up and
they follow the policies and procedures and they know that
they're also being held accountable and they show up
which is great, yes. But for the structure fires, it
is expected that we that we havecommand.
So for that in that case, I would just say that I'm on

(45:15):
location and I would just tell them, hey, come to my car for
face to face for transition of command and then I would take it
from there. Good.
And like I said. It's it's, it's amazing.
I like to talk to everyone that gets a chance to come on the
show, especially now, like how their system works, just because
it's funny, like we all again, we all do the same job.
I'm talking from coast to coast,but it's vastly different and

(45:38):
it's, it's always interesting tohave that opportunity to learn
each individual and their fire department because even within
the same state, different departments operate, you know,
even borders, they operate differently.
What do you find before we get into, because I really want to
talk about your podcast, kind ofwhat your vision is and kind of
where you're, you're tuning yourcareer now, but what do you find

(45:59):
before we get on that? What do you find is good, your
biggest challenge or what do youperceive is going to be your
biggest challenge in the leadership role, your current
department in let's say the nextfive years.
So between today and five years from now, what do you kind of
foresee would be the biggest challenge if anything is kind of
on the brain at all? So if we're talking about in the
next. Five years if we have a change

(46:23):
in executive level staff, No, OK.
Are you guys kind of due for that big turn around right now?
No, I don't. Our next?
Election is I think it's November 2020, sixth.
And I feel like we have done leaps and bounds with this
administration and they have been here for 6 1/2 years.

(46:48):
And our OPS chief has really setthe tone and he's invested in me
personally and I think he invested in, in, in his Chiefs
in general. And I feel like that change
might be hard it and again, it'schanged.
So it's scary, right? I like having him there.
I like to know what is expected of me.

(47:09):
And I think the direction that our department specifically is
is heading is a good, it's a, it's a good direction.
And my fear for the next 5 yearsof the challenge I think is if a
new leadership comes in and tries to change that direction,
copy. So basically.
What you're saying, so I understand you in your opinion,

(47:31):
you guys are trending in a very positive, efficient, effective
direction. And I guess the biggest terrify
would be someone else comes in and then just railroads, all
that progress you guys have madeover the last 6-7 years.
Absolutely. Yeah, it's got to be.
I can't imagine. How frustrating that would be if
if it were to happen and I coulddefinitely see that would be a
big fear leader leadership wise like so first of all, thank you

(47:55):
so much for all that informationabout your department.
Let's talk about you more. Let's talk about your podcast
and your leadership twist. So I've had the privilege to
listen to two episodes and excuse me if I'm behind, but so
far both have been you and your husband and your husband, for
the people that don't know, is aretired American Fire Service
right Cap retired as a captain or battalion, Battalion Chief

(48:17):
battalion. Chief Right.
And then how many years on the? Job did he have when he retired
a career. Service you had 29.
OK, so super seasoned. Guy, so it's you 2 right now on
the show. So just tell the listeners what
you guys are doing, what your podcast is and kind of what you
what your plan is. So we created a mission.
Leadership podcasts because I dofeel like a lot of the stuff

(48:41):
that I've learned and my experiences and his experiences,
and we are going to have other people in the show as well who,
who's share that similar background and leadership style
to just give us, you know, just different backgrounds.
And I, I started the podcast because you can affect change
with the people that you directly interact with.

(49:02):
So when I was a Lieutenant, it was my crew for the most part.
And then as a captain, it was the station as a battalion, it's
my Battalion Chief on or my battalion on my shift.
And I was trying to figure. Out a.
Way to have thoughtful conversations outside of those

(49:23):
restrictions because I do feel like I feel like I have a lot to
say and I don't think that all of my the way that I approach
stuff is the right way. But I do love thought provoking
discussions and hearing other people's perspectives of it.
And I felt like this was a really great way to get

(49:45):
information out, to hear other perspectives beyond just my
small area of the world then. And that's great, so.
Basically, it allots you the opportunity to be able to speak
to people from across the country.
Right on. Yeah, sharing their leadership,
sharing your leadership. Is that kind of the idea?

(50:05):
Yes, so. It's so funny you said that,
like we all do the same job, butI can assure you that I do not
like brush fires or wild land fires.
Same. And I much prefer that my fires
are contained to a structure andthey're not running away from
me. It just is not fun to me so.
But I bet their leadership styleis potentially different.

(50:28):
Or they have. I know for sure they have
different experiences than we dobecause the nature of what
they're like, what their structures are is different.
Their population is different, their water supply is different.
It's just so different than whatwe do here.
And I feel like I could probablypick up some stuff from them and
they could pick up stuff from me.

(50:49):
I pick up stuff from you. And I'm hoping that people, as
they listen to our podcast, can pick up some tips and tricks
along the way as well. Exactly.
And that's what. I mean, that's the whole reason
why this podcast exists at all is to spread the word.
You know, it's really to promoteCopper State fools, which is
here out of Arizona and the fools in general.
But the idea behind the fools isexactly what you just said.

(51:11):
I love that you said that. It is.
I hate the old school schmies where it's like the subject
matter experts, right? I believe there should be no
more schmies left. Granted, there's going to be
guys with more information than the rest of us, but I I've said
it to the guys before, I say it on a couple different episodes.
Shame on us. If we learn something new, it

(51:33):
works and we don't pass it down to the next guy because like
right now I'm at the Academy as you know, so I have the chance
to work with brand new guys with0 days on the job that recruits.
So with that said, if I can influence them, it's their fire
department. I'm not going to be here for
much longer. They have a guaranteed minimum
25 years that they have to do, which they will do and most will

(51:55):
do more. So it's like, hey guys, it's
your fire department. So shame on me if I don't teach
you what I know, right, to make you better than me.
And that's the whole thing is tospread that information when it
comes down. That's why I was really excited
to get you on to talk about thatleadership side because there's
so many things that we've talkedabout tonight that just that
doesn't get spoken about a lot, you know, Well, there is

(52:16):
something that you have to. Consider is that you are
influencing them now, but they are going to go out to the field
and they are going to have otherinfluences and some of the stuff
that you taught them that was the right way and the, you know,
the great way to do it. They may end up in a station or
with a crew that is lazy or has that mentality where they just

(52:41):
don't invest any time in them. And that's something that we
have to be aware of as well. And that's why we should also
reach out to officer level and ensure that they are operating
at a higher, a high efficiency level because we are at the
training Academy. We are not their only influence.
Once they go in the field and that's kind of where it goes off
the rails. So we teach them and then they

(53:03):
go out there and they sometimes learn bad behaviors and then
they promote to Lieutenant. It just it continues to be a
vicious cycle. So how do in?
In your opinion, right, leadership wise, especially in
your position, right you, you oversee an entire battalion on a
shift. So how do or what do you think
is the answer right now? How do we, I know you can't
squash it, but how do we kind ofalter that and spin those guys

(53:27):
180° to get the guys up and running?
Because we tell the kids all thetime, hey, the fire Academy is
literally this much of your entire career, you know, you
have 25 years. So you, you said it even outside
of probation, which is where they're going to learn most of
their traits and skills and kindof go, hey, do I prefer the
engine, the ladder, the heavy rescue?

(53:47):
Where, where do I fit into this organization?
But again, like you said, there's every department has
them great crews and horrible crews.
And the worst thing to do is those guys get on those horrible
crews. So how do we in the positions
where now how do we start to transition or change that or at
least minimize how many of thosesituations we're going to run

(54:09):
into in in the nation as the American fire service?
What's your opinion on that? Middle to upper.
Management has to continue to create structure boundaries and
hold them accountable. Where is your middle management?
Start. Is that an engineer?
A Lieutenant. I'm considered middle
management. Copy OK, so Battalion Chief

(54:30):
level. Yeah.
Because I do affect a whole battalion on my shift.
And I think from that point up is really where I actually
honestly think that you can holdpeople accountable at every
level. You can hold your peer
accountable. If you're the driver and you
have a firefighter who is is notdoing what they're supposed to

(54:52):
be doing, you have the ability to mentor them.
You have the ability to bring them up and to have positive
influence over them. But ultimately, the way to get
all these different backgrounds and get people on board with,
with moving the culture forward is to hold them accountable is
to, if you're not training or you're not performing, then

(55:16):
you're going to be held accountable.
If you are being lazy or just not treating somebody the way
that they should be treated, then you're going to be held
accountable for it. And it has to be fair across the
board. And that's the direction that we
are heading. And I feel like it is really,
some people don't like it, some people have retired from it,

(55:38):
some people quit from it. It is what it is.
That's how you, that's how you get to the point where this is
what is expected of you. And if you didn't come here to
do that job and you're not goingto raise the bar and get there,
then maybe this isn't the job for you.
I love it. It's it's.
There's a lot of times that I think we forget in the society

(55:58):
that we're in that it's OK. My personal opinion, it is OK to
have those tough conversations and be 100% transparent.
So listen, this is this is our expectation.
This is the minimum. I expect even higher than that.
But with that said, if you are not willing to attempt to get
there, then you should probably not be willing to work here

(56:21):
anymore. Yeah, you have to.
You have to be a part of. The overall team, when I make
decisions or I'm kind of going back and forth, the biggest part
of my job at this point is personnel, managing personnel,
personnel issues, mentoring and developing officers.
I feel like in my role now, it is more developing officers so

(56:43):
they can develop their people. And that's how you avoid that
micromanaging and give them buy in and give them the ability to
also grow their leadership skills.
And then if you're an officer inthe station, then you have
influence over the firefighters and you know, as you call them,
I guess engineers or technicians, drivers, you have
influence over them from that aspect.

(57:05):
But it's not something that we teach people.
We don't teach people how to have hard conversations.
We're not teaching them how to lead and how to separate
themselves from, you know, the buddy to boss thing.
And there are times that you're going to have to make hard
decisions that people are not going to like.
But when I have to make a hard decision, the very first thing I

(57:27):
think to myself is how does thissupport the mission?
Because that's what we're here for.
And we can't forget that. It's it's fun to go in.
It's trust me, it's fun. I like it just as much as the
next person. I like the structure fires.
I like to be aggressive. At the end of the day, we have
to. Support the mission and.
And what that is, that's the reason why we're here.

(57:49):
And I was teaching a class and Iasked people to raise their
hands if they knew what their mission statement was for their
department. And I think it was probably less
than 25% who actually knew what the mission of their fire
department was. Yeah.
So listeners that are listening now, like, do you know?
Do you know? Yeah.
Do you know your mission? Statement and if you don't, you

(58:09):
should. Look it up because you should be
basing what you were doing and how you're performing and how
you're growing people on that mission statement.
I love that. That's like probably the.
Best thing I've ever heard anybody say it like, hey, what
is the mission statement of yourdepartment?
And then more importantly, are you following it right then are
you, are you getting the next guy up to take your position one
day or, or to continue that growth of that mission

(58:30):
statement, which is again, like you said, why we're here.
More importantly for Mr. and Mrs. Smith, you know, that is
the number one reason the fire service even exists.
You know, forget all the other stuff that we do, Hazmat,
technical rescue, Swiftwater, you name it, right?
We're honestly here, search, rescue, fire attack, We're there
to save lives. Property comes secondary or

(58:51):
whatever. But it is exactly what you said,
highly trained, professional individuals.
And if you're not willing to do that, you have to elevate your
game. Yes, and.
The other thing? Is.
Mr. and Misses Smith, I'm going to.
I might catch some Flack for this.
Well, I'm interested now. Yeah, they do.

(59:13):
Not care what you look like. They don't care that I'm a
female. They just want to make sure that
I can do my job. And I may have to do it a little
differently because my makeup isdifferent than yours by, for
example, my center of gravity islower than yours.
I'm still expected to be able topull people out of buildings.

(59:33):
I'm still expected to advance that hose line and you sign up
to do this job. You have to be able to perform
and I don't want it to ever be. Well, you got where you are
because you're a female. I got where I am because I
worked hard for it and I put in the hours and I put I put the
grid into it. That's it.

(59:55):
That's why I was a kick ass fireman.
That's. Why?
Because I wanted it. I put the effort in and it's
funny because I I. I get flak from some guys or
whatever. You're a fireman, right?
I'm a fireman. It is not a gender role.
It is AII tell kids like this all the time because it's
something that I remember a super senior guy saying to me

(01:00:15):
when I graduated the Academy back East.
They said, hey, when you graduated the Academy, you're a
firefighter. We decide when you're a fireman,
right? And it has nothing to do with
your gender, has everything to do with your attitude, your
effort. And then how will you perform on
the on the fire ground? So it's it's nice to hear
somebody kind of still echo thatin the position that you're in,
because I kind of feel like, andit's just how it works.

(01:00:37):
Sometimes when you promote to a certain level, people feel like
they have to be not necessarily a yes man, right, But have to
conform to, OK, this is what theadministration currently does.
I need to kind of settle in instead of going, hey, I don't
agree with ABC and D are awesome, right?

(01:00:57):
Can we entertain this? These are the ideas I have that
kind of thing just to shake things up.
But more importantly, make it better for the the guys and I
say the guys, the people on the job, right?
And then that's who protects Mr.Mrs. Smith, which was what it
all circles back down to. And if you don't like it?
Work your butt off and promote into a position where you can

(01:01:18):
change it. Exactly.
It's your fire department. Yeah, and I can tell you.
For me, like I said, I've been very purposeful with my career
because I want to be where the people are.
You know, I want to be where, where you can affect change,
where you still have a pulse on what's going on.
And I've, I actually had saw a couple people ask me if I wanted

(01:01:41):
to be the chief of a department and the answer is no.
Why? Why?
Why is the? Answer no.
I mean, that kind of seems like a pipe dream for most.
No, it's not for me. So you've seen my bio, I have a
crap ton of whatever degrees andcertifications and all that

(01:02:02):
crap, but I, it's great that I have it.
I, I took those like my master'sis an organizational leadership
because I have a passion for leadership.
I have a passion for that. And I just my dad, he passed
away in 2018. Something that he always told me
was they can take anything away from you except your education.
So I've always been thirsty to learn.

(01:02:22):
I've always been thirsty to train because of that.
And when it comes down to it, ifI think about where I want to
be, I, it's so hard for me to think like the next 5 or 10
years because at the beginning you said like, oh, you know,
you're coming around the bend tothe end of your career.
I'm like, I feel like I just gothere.
I don't know if I'm there yet. I actually want to be an OPS

(01:02:46):
chief. That's what I want to be, yeah.
And that's, and that's amazing because.
He. Encompasses everything you love,
right? Correct me if I'm wrong at that
next level that the highest level where you could probably
still affect change. But more importantly, you're
still with the cruise, right? Yes, and.
I'm not. Saying that, obviously.
Being the chief of the department isn't isn't an

(01:03:08):
amazing accomplishment. It is.
But just like being a firefighter or being an officer,
it is not for everyone. And I feel like the political
game in some cases, I just don'tthink I would be good at it.
There are people that would be better at it and I feel like I'm
humble enough to know that it's probably not the best position

(01:03:29):
for me. But I do think being an
operational, an operational chief level is something that I
would really enjoy and somethingI feel like I have a lot to
contribute to. Not now.
I still have a lot of a lot of growth to do.
But if I'm, if I'm talking aboutlong term goals and you asked
me, well, where do I want to be at the end of my career, That's
where I want to be. And it's not about rank to me.

(01:03:52):
It's never has been. And I think that's important.
I I think what a lot. Of guys don't understand and
again this is just how I view things the positions we promote
to Lieutenant, captain, battalion assistant, deputy,
whatever your department has thethe good ones and again this is
my opinion the good ones promoteto those positions because they

(01:04:12):
realize that they can no longer affect the level of change that
they want to at their current position back to the fireman,
engineer, pump operator, Lieutenant and you know and you
just keep hearing man up. So it's, it's nice to hear
someone say like what you're saying, where that is where I
want to be because that's where I can still affect change all
the way through my entire. Career and I.
Feel like I. At least I'd like to think so,

(01:04:35):
right? Maybe not everybody feels that
same way about me, but from my perspective I feel like I am
middle. Of the road I.
Think one of the things that we've done when it comes to
culture and leadership is you take that old school way of
thinking and like the old schoolfire department where it doesn't

(01:04:56):
always apply now and we're like,OK, well things are changing.
So instead of taking it at pace,we just swing that pigeon the
other way and just. Completely.
Just swing it the other way and then we question why people are
bucking it. And I don't think it's a best
practice. The bottom line is.

(01:05:18):
This. It is not an easy job.
It is a job that requires a lot of mental, mental strength,
physical strength, determination.
And I feel this is this is my opinion.
And I've seen this in a lot of jurisdictions.
They when they go out to recruit, they're selling it

(01:05:43):
like, oh, well, you're going to get all of these amazing
benefits and you're going to getall of this amazing stuff and
like, no, it's really fun and you get to be in the team, which
is completely true. I mean, it is, but you also have
to tell them like you're going to be up all night, you're going
to be away from your family for 24 hours.
You're going to miss some of your kids Christmases.
You are going to have days whereyou feel like a complete

(01:06:06):
failure. You're going to have days where
you feel like you showed up and you you really nailed it and you
were on your A game. You were going to experience
stuff in your career that's going to be traumatic.
I actually read a statistic thatsays the majority of people
actually experienced 4 traumaticexperiences in their life, and
the majority of firefighters experience over 400 in their

(01:06:30):
career. I was gonna say 4 that's in.
Within your first year at a slower department, like exactly,
yeah. And they come into it and
they're not it's, it's not what they saw on TV.
And that's another thing I thinkthat contributes to it is, well,
I'm watching what is a Chicago Fire.
I, I watch the, I literally watched the first episode of

(01:06:52):
that when it was a pilot and I was like, I can absolutely not
do this. This is trash.
So that's what they see. And they're like, it seems super
easy. Like look at them out there
being heroes of the day. They just do whatever.
And then they get into the Academy and the Academy does a
good job of teaching them the basics.
But the the real work of adapting is when you get to that

(01:07:14):
shift and you're out running emergency calls and you're face
to face with the public and it'stotal chaos.
And they are expecting you to fix their chaos.
And I do feel like in that first18 months, when people come into
the field, that's the time wherethey learn if this is for them
or if it's not. And it's OK if it's not, if you

(01:07:34):
promote to a Lieutenant position, you're like, I don't
think that I can do this or, youknow, it's not what I thought it
was going to be. That's OK.
It's OK. It it's just you're not doing
everybody any service. If you stay in that position
because of your ego or because of the title or things like

(01:07:55):
that, you should be doing it forthe right reasons.
And while we do have great benefits and a great retirement
and stuff like that, it shouldn't be your sole purpose
for being here. Yeah, no, you're right.
It's funny because I've had the conversation that you just had
with me complete opposite where because it's it was a recruiting
conversation and I'm going, whatdo you hear on the news about

(01:08:17):
the fire department if it's not a job in that local area on the
news, One of us has cancer, we committed suicide, drug problem.
It's negative, negative, negative, negative.
And we've had situations in my region where brand new guys are
basically being told by their family, Are you sure?
Please don't. I don't want you to die of

(01:08:37):
cancer. I don't want you to die in a
house fire. I don't want you to get shot at,
blah, blah. I mean, you, you name it.
And I'm almost I was literally having a conversation with
another captain going, well, howare we going to tell people that
it's actually a really freaking cool job, you know, because it
we never had to recruit before. And then it seems like we have
now. And I know this is completely
off topic, but it's funny because two polar opposites and

(01:09:00):
both are 100% spot on, you know?So it's like, how do we how do
we toe that line of getting the right person in right, but
making sure they know the negatives.
But the same time we know that they're going to give us 2530
healthy years you put people in.The recruiting position who are
very passionate about the job and have experience being a part

(01:09:24):
of a crew and have the ability to share both the positive and
the negative to them in a way that they can hear it.
Because I do think it is important to tell people because
it is a really, it is an awesomejob.
I mean, I'm almost 21 years in and I go to work with a smile on
my face. I, I genuinely love this job.

(01:09:46):
And I think it's important that if you have somebody who's
infectious like that with the job, that those are the people
that are recruiting and those are the people saying, yeah, for
me it has been wonderful. I am a first generation
firefighter and it has been justreally rewarding for me.
And yeah, the days are hard and these are some of the things

(01:10:09):
that you could face. We are working to change some of
those things. But it is an inherently
dangerous job. If you, if you feel like you can
work towards that and this is something that you really feel
passionate about, at least give it a try.
Come into the Academy, go in thefield.
But if at some point you decide that this is not the job for

(01:10:30):
you, that's when you really haveto be true to yourself or you
decide this is really great and I think I could be in a
leadership position. You start to work towards that
early so that you are a good officer when the time comes.
That's great and not that knee jerk.
Reaction of oh shit, there's a test in six months so I'll just
take it right see what how it shakes out so.

(01:10:53):
Yeah, No, go ahead. Sorry.
I know we're like a little bit. Delayed when I went for
Battalion Chief. I have been a captain for six
years and I started filling out command boards and just learning
everything I could about the perspective of that job two
years before I took the test and.

(01:11:16):
Every time a fire came. Out.
I was listening to the fire. I still do it now, but I was
listening to it. I was filling out the command
board. I was understanding how
accountability worked, how command was supposed to
function. I was understanding the weight
of that job because there is a weight that comes with being an
officer, with being a Battalion Chief and the responsibility
that you have for other people'slives to that levels, people

(01:11:37):
that you work with and know every day that could potentially
not go home because of a decision that you made.
And I took two years to put a lot of effort into it to make
sure that when the time came that I was ready and as ready as
you can be, like you can't. You're never ready.
You're never. Ready.

(01:11:58):
Yeah. And it is still really scary.
It is. It is scary when you get in that
seat and they're calling for youand you're the one that has to
make some of those decisions. But I felt like I'm going to
control everything I can controland I can control how much
effort I put into this. And I know that in a couple
years I'm going to want to become a Battalion Chief or

(01:12:19):
something that I'm interested in.
I'm going to spend that two years.
So when the test came up, I had already done the work and it was
just continuing to to know the policies and procedures and just
continuing to listen to those fires.
I reached out to battalion chiefs and asked them for
mentorship, which I think is really important in the fire
service. And if you're the one that wants

(01:12:41):
to be mentored, you're the one that needs to be reaching out.
People are not going to come to you and be like, hey, Phil,
would you like to be mentored byme?
No, you got to go and get it. That's like the whole point.
And it's a little weird too, if somebody's.
Coming up to you asking a reverse question, be like, yeah,
that's stranger. Things have happened, sure.
So before we. So while we start kind of

(01:13:01):
winding down before we get into the questions of the season, I'm
going to put you on the spot fora second, but I have no doubt
that you're going to crush it. And I'm just curious because the
the question came to me as we'vebeen talking.
If you were to give words of advice to a brand new officer.
So in your system, the lowest suppression officer is
Lieutenant. So a brandly newly promoted hard

(01:13:24):
charger, let's say a number one on the list, but backs it up,
has been a back step guy for a while, engineer the whole 9.
What would be not necessarily keys to success, but what would
be your first talk with them to make sure that you set them up
to be successful for their infancy?
As a suppression officer, I would make sure that they.

(01:13:46):
Understand what the role is and what the their expectation is
from the department, what is expected of them so that it's
clear for them and what they should expect out of their
crews. I think setting them up for
success is to clearly define those lines.
It it helps them to be an officer because their crews now

(01:14:07):
know where the parameters they need to operate in.
It could be frustrating because at first you are lost in the
sauce. It's just a nature of growing.
It's important to reach out to mentors, the right mentors, and
to figure out where your weaknesses are as early as
possible. We all have weaknesses.

(01:14:29):
I'm very aware of what my weaknesses are and I, I work
regularly to try and overcome them.
And we're I, I saw a quote a fewweeks ago that said in the in
the pursuit of perfection, we achieve excellence.

(01:14:49):
So my. Goal is for.
Them to pursue perfection and inthe pursuit of perfection
they'll achieve excellence but you're always going to be
growing and learning and it's important for them to always
have a mentor and to always be seeking out to grow and.
Learn. Because think about it, we just

(01:15:10):
talked about how the fire service has changed so much over
the last several years, and it'schanging at a wrap much, much
faster right now than it ever has been.
They have to be adaptable and they have to recognize when they
make mistakes. And the number one thing for me
is to be accountable for yourself before you make other

(01:15:30):
people's accountable for their actions.
You have to be accountable before you hold other people
accountable, period. Just is what it is.
So. Leading by example for the most
part. Mm hmm.
That's yeah, that's. Amazing So.
Yeah. Is there anything before we kind
of wrap up, is there anything that you want to talk about or
anything you feel like you kind of missed?

(01:15:51):
I know leadership is a huge topic, right?
But is there any like take homesfor the audience you want to do?
Like I said, the culture talk isreally what I want to accomplish
because it's something, again, I've never heard.
It's very interesting. And everyone listening please go
to cheese podcast. All the links will be in the bio
at the end of the episode so you'll be able to click over
there and she talks in depth about it.

(01:16:13):
I'll link that exact episode, but is there anything else you
want to leave the audience with when it comes down to at least
your leadership style? Yes, I think for my.
Leadership style it's important to invest in your people and
invest in yourself and that is how we're going to move the fire
service forward and continue to stay rooted in our traditions
while also keeping up with the culture and the changes of

(01:16:35):
society I love it that's probably the.
The best way I've ever heard anybody explain exactly how I
feel in my heart, right, which is exactly what chief just said.
I love the traditions. That's why I'm a fool's member.
That's why this podcast exists by awesome.
I'm not an idiot most days rightand I understand that I do need
to adapt with the fire service. I see the need and I'm

(01:16:57):
wholeheartedly on board, but it's toeing that line because I
do feel like traditions are thatimportant.
So how do you have both? And I I think you wrapped it up
perfectly in two sentences. So that's amazing.
So thank you again for your time.
So let's get in. We'll wrap up the episode here.
We'll so get we'll get into the the question of the season.
We already know the why, So we know why you became a fireman,

(01:17:18):
right, because you're a horribledriver.
I'm starting to I'm. Trying to get better in my
current role and yeah, and now, you know, you're driving the.
Parking vehicle all over the place by yourself while.
Changing orders? Well, yeah, yeah, great.
Cool. Multitasking phone, radio,
everything else so. We know the why.
So let's talk about traditions. We're we're kind of spinning off

(01:17:39):
that now. So what is your fight favorite
fire department? Excuse me, what is your favorite
fire department tradition? But more importantly, why is it
your favorite? So the American fire.
Service has very specific traditions that I think you
recognize. You're like, Yep, that's an
American firefighter. Number one thing is going to be
the style and shape of our helmet, right?

(01:18:02):
There's a reason why nobody is wearing a European style helmet
in the United States of America.And it's not actually because
the helmet is not better. Like if you look at the helmet,
you get your face mask on prettyquickly and it probably makes
more sense. But ours is approved by the
NFPA, and it does the job. But it's also something that
identifies us as American firefighters.

(01:18:24):
And I think that's like a tradition that we have across
the board. I think that's something that
most American firefighters wouldagree on.
I'm sorry for any European firefighters that are listening,
but, you know, come over here and try our helmets and let's
see how it goes. Yeah, they, well, they think
we're crazy anyway. Because I know a couple of
European guys, they, they look at us like we're Cowboys.

(01:18:46):
Like why do you even guys go inside like it's, it's just a
completely different dinosaur. But their, their helmets are
I'll, I'll censor as much as I can, but they're ridiculous.
Like I literally said, I remember the department I work
for right now, we had demoed them as in like 1 came around
from training and guys were putting them on.
And I literally said I will quitthe day we go to these helmets
and go to the neighboring fire department.

(01:19:07):
Yeah, I'm like, I'll give up allmy time, seniority, everything
else because that's how stronglyI feel against them.
Isn't that so funny? It's and some people will listen
to that and say, well, that's you not evolving.
I don't think that's a part of our system that's broken.
No, it's absolutely not like. I said it's, it's a tradition
that doesn't change any aspect of our job, correct?

(01:19:29):
And it's still. Safe.
It's still a safety option that is approved by the NFPA, but it
is something that people recognize when you show up on
the scene. I think specifically our
helmets. I have a leather helmet.
I just change the color of it when I promote.
It's just, it's just one of those things that I think is

(01:19:49):
really deep rooted. So that's one of the traditions
that I really like. Something that we do in my
department, we started doing this a few years ago, is when
people retire, we do an announcement over the radio.
That's amazing. Yeah, and we tell everybody in
the. Department so they you're aware
that they're retiring so you cancall them and and have a big
dinner for them. And I think that's really great

(01:20:11):
because we do last calls when somebody dies, but we're not
celebrating when somebody makes it to the end of their career.
So my favorite tradition, at least where where I work, is
that last call of celebration ofthem making it to retirement,
then wishing them well and to have a long retirement.
And you, you hit it on it with the cancer and the stuff that we

(01:20:31):
have to really celebrate where they've made it and for them to
enjoy the retirement. So I really like that we do that
and that's a tradition that we have.
And I think a lot of departmentsare starting to do it.
Amazing. Good, good, good.
Good. I wholeheartedly agree 100% on
that tradition, especially we'retalking leather helmets, I mean
1000% so amazing. All right, so the next question

(01:20:54):
is if you could tell anyone and I, and this is a new question
for the season because looking at all the departments across
the nation right now, basically every single department in the
country in the United States is 50% of that department's five
years and less, which is scary and good all at the same time.
No matter how you feel about it.I think it's a positive.

(01:21:15):
Some guys think it's a negative.I see both sides.
But with that said, what would be the one thing you would tell
a brand new guy, so someone between 0 days on the job and
five years on the job that you believe would set them up for
success? Always look at where you're
going. Explain that a little bit more.
Yep. So always look at where you're.
Going because you get hired, youcome off probation and like

(01:21:39):
we've been talking about in fiveyears, you're up for promotion
and those are things that you need to be prepared for in
advance. We shouldn't be flying by the
seat of our pants at all. And especially with stuff where
you know you can sell yourself up to be a good candidate and
maybe it's not even with promotion.
We should be stagnant. We should always be looking at
where we're going. We should be always trying to

(01:22:00):
learn and grow and do better. So I have short term and long
term goals because honestly, 20 years, I just can't believe it.
I still feel like I'm 21. My body doesn't feel like that,
but my my brain does. My husband always cheers for me
because he's older than me. So he he's like, I feel like I'm
older than you in years, but I think you're older than me and

(01:22:22):
just how broken you are. How much you moan when you try
to stand? Up the note The old man, which
doesn't come out. Oh, in 2000. 10 I had back
surgery from a fire. It's just a a surgery that it
was. It was like a whole block.
That was on fire. So I was a firefighter and I
ended up having surgery and theyswore that I was going to get

(01:22:45):
retired. I was like absolutely not like
it is not going to happen. So my body, I pay for it
sometimes, but it was worth it. Good.
Good, good, good. Right.
So last question, this is exact opposite of kind of what we're
coming off of. So let's let's do a change.
So if you could change that includes implementing something

(01:23:07):
completely eliminating something, whatever it is,
basically you are king for the day.
Your fire department, right? You could change one thing in
the American Fire Service. So it's not even your department
across the country. One individual thing that you
can change the American Fire service 0 sweat equity,
instagramification. What would it be?
But more importantly, why would you do it?
Oh, that is. Multi faceted question.

(01:23:29):
No, I love it. So you're getting me to think.
Something that I could change, yeah, I would definitely change
how we promote people into leadership positions.
And something that can be instant gratifications is
putting more effort into mentorship programs.
To be a good leader, you have tobe a good follower and you have

(01:23:50):
to have good followership. So for me, I would put something
in place that sets up a better mentorship program so that
people that, you know, they're always looking forward and they
have a direction to go and they have kind of a recipe for how to
get there. Perfect is there.
Is there anything in particular,if you could change everything,
how you would change the promotional process?

(01:24:10):
If it could be your way, what would that?
What would that look like? Is that?
Just a is. That a harder in test is that no
test is that all tactical practical stuff like what would
be your you're trying to promoteor make a list for lieutenants.
What would be your desire if you're if you could run the
entire show with no no holds bars so.

(01:24:33):
We have actually changed our promotional process quite a bit.
We do have an assessment center.A part of the grade does still
rely on a written test. I struggle with that a little
bit because we have good people who are just are not good test
takers and they know the information and they can put the

(01:24:55):
information into play, but they're just not good at taking
tests, so we're not. Putting them into that.
Leadership position just becausethey're not.
They're just not good at. Taking test takers yet?
That's it. Right, like that.
Doesn't really have a lot to do specifically with your job.
You're just not a good test taker.

(01:25:16):
I do think the assessment centeris where it's at and I do think
if I could change one thing right and this is again, it
could be controversial. I was actually talking to a
friend the other day about promotional processes in general
and they didn't realize that when you get people from other
jurisdictions to come, the norm is just to send somebody from

(01:25:37):
day work to evaluate really so if.
I could, yes. So just look into that.
Just start looking into that andfigure out when when other
departments look for people fromoutside to evaluate.
Ask who they send. Interesting.
I think that in. Order to evaluate somebody in a

(01:25:59):
promotional process that you need to be a well-rounded
officer with experience. And I'm not saying that you have
to be in the field, but you should have some experience and
background. I can say in our department, we
have a very fair process that puts it out to people in the
field. And I we do, we do of course
have people on day work that do a really great job, but I'm
talking about the people who've spent their entire careers on

(01:26:21):
day work. You know what I'm saying?
Like you then you send them to an assessment center and they're
going to assess how somebody should respond in the field.
It doesn't make. Does make any sense?
It doesn't. Work like that, Yeah.
And they're not supervising. People on day work like they,
and this is because I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to be
jaded to day work people. I spent a couple years at the

(01:26:42):
training Academy, but I do know a lot of day work positions like
you're not really supervising other people.
And then you go in there and youhave to determine if somebody's
going to be good at supervising someone else or you have to
determine if the way that they approached A tactical situation
is appropriate. And the general standard that I
have found just from my experience is what's just easier

(01:27:05):
to send somebody on day work, right?
Because you don't have to backfill your spot in the field.
And it's just, it's just regulartime.
And I feel like we should be sending the best candidates for
the assessment center to also evaluate.
I think that's super important. And that's how we are going to
get the right people into the right places.

(01:27:26):
And I think if we, if you are the person or the department
that is sending people, you should be sending, you should be
sending the people that you think are going to do the best
job at evaluating that department because these
ultimately are going to be your mutual aid companies.
Do you? Do you?
Believe that. The best, and again, in your
opinion, the best model would beoutside agencies.

(01:27:49):
But say, say we're doing a test for captains, right?
So you bring in battalion chiefsor captains from neighboring
departments or would you prefer keeping it in house because you
want to make sure they fit that model that you guys operate?
What would what would be your preference?
That's a great question. I actually prefer the way that
we do it for ours right now, so I can give you a little insight

(01:28:10):
for the battalion cheese process.
For that, we had what is called a PHP history portfolio.
It's you. They ask you questions and you
have one page or two pages to write down your experience, how
you've contributed to the fire service, what your training and
education is. And then that is created

(01:28:33):
internally from internal evaluators.
And the way that they make it fair is they do give a list of
people they feel would do an honest, fair job that are
respected in the department. And then me as a candidate, I
get the option to choose five ofthem and then three of them will
be my evaluator. So you're not just stuck with,
oh man, that guy, he thinks I'm like awful.

(01:28:54):
And you know, I got into an argument with him one time and
now it's like I'm completely doomed.
You do have a little bit of say over who it is.
But for the history portfolio, what are departmental values is
a good mix of, of training and experience.
And who better to really determine that for that, for the
history portfolio than internal people?

(01:29:16):
The assessment center is external that is done by a
company and I think that is the fairest way so that there is no
optical or some there's no optics that somebody is just
getting a fair shake and I can tell you I just.
Told this to one person. And he's probably going to
listen to this podcast. And he was mind blown when I
told him this. I.

(01:29:38):
I scored number one of the. Promotional process for
Battalion Chief. And he's like, man, how did that
make you feel? And I said stick to my stomach.
And he's like, why? You're not, You're not excited.
I said no, because people are going to think it was given to
me because I see. I didn't even think.
About that. But people are going.
To think there's I scored my assessment center was I've was a

(01:30:01):
very, very high score. And it's not because I was given
to me. People didn't know.
I don't just sit down and tell people like, hey, look at all
this stuff that I've done and how long, you know, people
didn't know I was sitting at my house for two years listening to
to fires and writing stuff down.I know for sure that I earned
it. But a way to take away that
doubt is to make a third party in charge of it.

(01:30:25):
And it was internal people that that graded my history
portfolio. And I was not number one at the
end of that, but I was closer tothe top.
But then I just I freaking brought it to the assessment
center. I laid it all on the line, but
it just my first, it just, it just made me feel sick to my
stomach. And I think that the way to

(01:30:47):
avoid that in general is by by creating that separation to
ensure that it's a fair process.That's awesome.
So. I've never thought of a third
party coming in. And initially when you said it,
my honest initial reaction was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no,
no, I don't. I hate that idea.
Right. They don't know our job.

(01:31:08):
But then as I'm listening to youtalk, yeah, obviously it would
be a company that is set up to address firemen in our roles or
what that department is looking for as a candidate, I'm
assuming, right. Something along those lines,
Yes. So they.
Work with our department and we have a work group for the

(01:31:29):
different ranks of people that have already been experienced in
that rank that are highly qualified and well experienced
and they help put the assessmentcenter together.
And So what is determined that is an important job function
that's all determined internally.
The assessment center itself is just a fairway to execute it.

(01:31:50):
So everybody gets the same time for video, the same setup
ensures that the process is fair.
And we while it is outside agencies that are doing the
assessment center, which is normally who evaluates it, it's
not the, it's not the company that you hire, it's other
firefighters, right? And what we do is to avoid

(01:32:12):
exactly what you said is we havean expert that goes there.
It's one of our people that thatsits there.
So if I'm an assessor and I've been an assessor for other other
places before, there's one person from your department
there that is a liaison and they'll come in and say, hey,
they did this during their tactical exercise.

(01:32:33):
Is this is this normal for you? Guys like what is your?
Policy and then that expert willgive the policy and then they
base their assessment on that toensure that if it is something
they don't understand that it's clarified and determine if there
if that candidate is following our rules and regulations.
And the the I guess the expert that is put there, he doesn't

(01:32:57):
know who it is. They don't give.
Names. They don't.
Say any of that stuff, they justcome in and ask the question.
I think that is really the fairest way to do it is to have
one of your people there. The person that was there for my
promotional process is, is highly respected in our
department and does a really amazing job.

(01:33:17):
And he's across the board, like you would say, like fireman's
fireman, right? Like he's the man.
He's the guy. I actually call him the mayor.
So he knows his shit. He just, he does.
You cannot refute that. Like him or not like him, he
knows his stuff. And he has been in that

(01:33:39):
leadership role as a Battalion Chief for a long time.
Like he's been a Battalion Chiefand our busiest battalion for
almost as long as I've worked for this department.
That's amazing. Yeah.
So he's our expert. Right.
And he goes in there and if whenthey have those questions,
without a doubt, he can answer those questions in a fair manner

(01:34:00):
where he says this is what we doand This is why we do it.
And then they can determine how they are going to grade it based
off of that. And that is, I feel like that's
fair. That's a fair way to do it.
Yeah. Do you have any?
I'm just curious. Do you have any kickback from
the union about something like that or no?
No, they actually prefer. It to be a process where it is

(01:34:20):
fair for everyone. So cool.
Good. Well, it worked out great then.
Well, that was the first time I had follow up questions to the
single question ever, right? It was so intriguing.
So I really appreciate that. So we're done.
Say thank you. First of all, thank you so much
for your time. I know we kind of went back and
forth or whatever. Please tell the audience, and
again, it's going to be in the notes, but remind everybody how

(01:34:42):
they can find you for your podcast, what you're up to, any
of your social media media. If you can plug all that and
then I'll put it all in the notes when when this goes live.
Awesome. Yep.
So we are. Ignition Leadership podcast.
So you can find us on all major platforms.
We have YouTube, Spotify, Apple RSS feed.
We do have a Facebook page, Instagram.

(01:35:04):
I actually post on LinkedIn frommy personal name.
So if you just search my name onLinkedIn and connect, I post it
on there as well. We are, I have a whole list of
stuff I want to talk about and it has to do with thought
provoking discussions on leadership and different
approaches to get all of your team on the same page but still

(01:35:25):
hold them accountable and most importantly, preserve the
traditions of the fire service. So I'm excited about that
because I feel like that base ofwho we are and what we do gets
lost by swinging the pendulum the other way.
And I just want to show that there is a way to do it without
having to swing it all the way the other way and we forget
where we came from. I love it.

(01:35:47):
And that's exactly. Why Chief Hatworth is on this
show right now because like I said, she's one of the firemen's
chiefs. So came up through the ranks,
right? And then if you had any doubt
all the way up to the very end of this podcast, if you made it
all the way up here, thank you for listening.
She just crushed it right there,right?
Maintaining the traditions, but improving the fire service,
especially on the leadership side.

(01:36:08):
We have so many options on helping people get hired, get
into positions, get specialties,paramedic, TRT, hazmat, whatever
the case might be. But then I feel like, and I know
you agree with me on this one, once you decide to take a test
for that's the pressure officer,then you're on your own.
Hey, you pass the test, you did #1 good.
That must mean you're a good leader.

(01:36:29):
Take the boys and go. And it's obviously, we know it,
the exact opposite of that. Yeah, you're a great.
Fireman, you can. Do the task oriented stuff well,
but when it comes to station operations and making your team
perform at the highest function and the highest level, we don't
teach our people how to do that.No, not at all.
Yeah, we're task. Oriented enough people minded
when it comes down to that and that's again something that

(01:36:50):
we're all realizing and and again, Chief Howard right now is
trying to rapidly change that with her podcast and and her
conferences and everything else by getting that information out
and giving us other options and other slideshows to be able to
make our crews better. And guess what for everyone
listening to this and especiallyif you're a suppression officer
when you look good it's because your crew performed.
It has really nothing to do withus right.

(01:37:12):
We're the ones that facilitate that.
But in all reality, you could bea shitty pressure officer with
an amazing crew and they're going to say you're awesome
every single time. That's just how it is, you know?
Yeah, but your crew knows. And those are the people that
you are responsible for. And I'm a, I'm a proponent and
working really hard and investing in your people.

(01:37:33):
And I feel like all the leadership stuff that I've
looked for and I've tried to find in the fire service, it's
either you're one way or the other.
It's like, no, I'm we're not changing at all.
We're, you know, we're going to go in with three quarter boots
and make it like, you know how it used to be.
And then there's the other groupthat's like, we need safe
spaces. And if they get upset, you know,

(01:37:57):
we have to make sure that they have room to argue with us.
And that is not the way that it goes either.
It it needs to be structured. They need to be held
accountable. I need to be held accountable
for my actions. And I just, I had a hard time
follow finding that. And so I'm like, you know what?
I feel like I have a message to put out there for thought

(01:38:18):
provoking discussion on how you can have both.
Yep. Then you're you're.
Absolutely right. And like I said.
I've I've enjoyed every episode I've had the privilege to listen
to. And again, I am honored that you
agreed to come on this show. So thank you again, thank you
everyone for listening. And again, just to close it out,
remember, if you are feeling stale or you're searching for
knowledge and you're not gettingit with your fire department, I

(01:38:39):
guarantee you no matter where you are, there's a fools
organization next to you. Reach out to them.
They're like minded individuals.It's a great place to start.
And again, we can all learn something from somebody, no
matter what coaster on what department they work for a big,
small, it doesn't matter. So be a constant learner, be a
student of the game, right? Keep the traditions alive.
And again, when you get a chance, please check out Chief

(01:39:01):
Fowler's podcast. She's a wealth of knowledge,
especially when it comes down tothat leadership.
And I'm excited to see what you put out in the future.
Chief. Thank you so much for your time.
I appreciate you. Thank you.
It was great catching up with you.
Absolutely. We'll, we'll.
Catch you guys in another two weeks.
Thank you. Thanks for listening.
We'll be back in another two weeks.
Remember to like, share, review if you can.

(01:39:24):
Helps drive traffic to our podcast.
Remember, let's leave our ego out of the fire service.
It's amazing what we can accomplish when no one's looking
for credit. Much love.
Let's stop eating our own and become better fireman.
Catch you next time.

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