July 22, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of Corp Eh! Diem, we sit down with seasoned entrepreneur Geoff Best to explore the personal side of entrepreneurship. From a career in banking to launching a virtual law firm and even a barbershop, Geoff shares how pivotal life moments—like the 2008 financial crisis—pushed him toward building businesses aligned with his unique abilities. He dives into the idea that success in business isn’t just about passion or market fit, but about understanding what you’re truly good at and enjoy doing.
Geoff also introduces “Frank – The Straight Goods,” a tool he created to help founders assess not just whether a business idea is viable, but whether it fits them. Drawing on years of experience, Geoff developed Frank as a way to avoid the common trap of ending up in “entrepreneurial jail”—running a business that no longer serves you.
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Episode Transcript
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Dom (00:00):
Hi, I'm Dominic Kingston.
Léa (00:01):
And I'm Lea Lavoie.
Dom (00:02):
Welcome to the Corp Diem Podcast
Léa (00:04):
So today we have the pleasure of talking to Geoff
Best.
Geoff started his career as abranch manager at BDC.
He worked in the bankingindustry until 2008, when the
financial crisis forced him tolook at a new career.
He then ventured into the worldof entrepreneurship with two
businesses.
The first one, simplex Legal.
The goal was to make legaladvice accessible to Canadian
businesses, add better valuewith a human touch.
(00:25):
The second one was a barbershoptwo completely different
businesses.
In 2021, he sold the company toa global firm his second
liquidity of a startup.
He's had several businessventures since, including the
tool we'll discuss today Frankthe Straight Goods.
Geoff (00:40):
It's my pleasure to be here.
Thank you both.
Dom (00:42):
So, Geoff, I've noticed I've known you for years and
I've noticed often you'll askpeople what is their unique
ability, and I've always foundthat interesting.
Where did that come from andwhy did you use that?
Geoff (00:53):
It's an interesting concept.
It's something that we stolewith honor from the strategic
coach program that my partner,martine, took, and the notion of
it is that everybody hassomething that they are
particularly good at, that theylove doing, and a lot of people
won't even realize what it is.
(01:13):
You've been doing it well sinceyou were a kid and for you it's
just natural.
You can just do it and that'swhere you should spend your time
and my whole engineering of mybusinesses.
In a perfect world, I try toengineer that everybody who's
working with me is working intheir unique ability, because I
know and it takes some time tosort out what yours is, and so I
(01:37):
spend a lot of time on thatmyself to see what it is, so
that I can just do that as muchas I possibly can, because the
stuff that I'm bad at and that Ihate doing like why on earth am
I doing that?
But so many people spend a lotof time doing that.
We're raised as kids to grindthrough stuff you hate, you know
builds character and all thatnonsense.
But you know, when the lightgoes on, you realize that the
(01:59):
stuff that you're bad at and youhate, there's some people that
love it and are good at it,right.
And if you can put them in thatspot so that they do those
things and allow you to do thestuff that you love and are good
at, like, it's a recipe forsuccess.
Dom (02:12):
That makes sense.
So have you.
So you're obviously appliedthat in the businesses that
you're being in.
Geoff (02:16):
I take it as best as I can.
Yeah, it's, it's um, it.
It does a ton of things at once.
Right, it's not easy, you haveto engineer it, but it really
allows people to um, to becomethat creative part of the puzzle
and empowered because you leavethem alone, because they're
doing stuff you know thatthey're very good at and it also
(02:36):
you know people don't hatetheir lives when they're doing
stuff they love.
That's you know.
It's.
So, for you think the wholeretention kind of conundrum that
businesses face, it's uh, it'ssomething that that that just
helps with that, without havingto do a thing other than being
conscious of what people love todo.
Dom (02:53):
Yeah, so I worked in banking and I know you have as
well.
So in banking I was not veryorganized and not very like.
My desk was a mess right and Iget in trouble for you're
disorganized and your desk is amess.
Geoff (03:04):
I've known you for many years, Dom, and it doesn't
surprise me.
Dom (03:10):
And I thought, oh, I have to work harder at this to be
better at it.
And I've discovered that it'snot going to happen.
So maybe that's why I've beenintrigued by that question that
you asked, because it's like so,if you can work within your
unique ability, it's a great fit.
And then, maybe before we getdeeper into the show, but just
to touch on it, so people oftenwill say, if you're going to
start a business, you shouldstart something about what
you're passionate about.
So is what you're passionateabout and your unique ability?
Are they the same or different?
(03:31):
And so should you start abusiness around passion or just
your unique ability?
Geoff (03:35):
No, that's a deep one and it's a lot of advice that you
get.
You know, you get a lot of thebillionaires telling you to do
that and and I don't, I don'tknow that I strictly believe it
in practice.
I think it's a nice concept andI think it's a it's admirable
and I think, you know, if peoplecan do that, that's lovely, but
it doesn't necessarily make ita good business.
(03:56):
And like, running a business ishard, right, and and it doesn't
just cause you love somethingdoesn't make it a good market,
it doesn't.
You know it can be just to say,someone's going to buy what
you're selling, right, turn ahobby into a job, and then all
of a sudden you hit your hobby,yeah, yeah, and I think you know
.
In short, I think sometimesit's better to just be really
(04:17):
good at whatever.
Opportunity you have when you'reyoung To be good at something,
to become excellent at it,opportunity you have when you're
young to be good at something,to become excellent at it.
Focus on areas where you can,can stretch that.
Those muscles that are, youknow, where you, what you love
and what you're good at, try,and you know, let's be honest,
you don't always have thosechoices when you're, you know,
(04:37):
in your first jobs or whatever,right, it's like you gotta do
what you gotta do.
But if you can, um, if you cantry and point yourself that
direction, I think you'll bebetter off.
And if over time you learn allthe skills, then maybe you can
weave into where your passionslie from that other side.
Dom (04:53):
So I think that's a good segue.
So I'll turn it over to Leah.
So let's talk a bit about GeoffBest and how you got going.
Léa (04:59):
Oh yeah, so, Geoff, you and Dom know each other well, but
for me, this is only my secondtime meeting you, so I
definitely did some onlinestalking to learn more about
your story and how you became anentrepreneur.
So I read up and I heard thatyou were in banking up until the
2008 financial crisis.
So, as someone who was sixyears old in 2008, and I'm sorry
to say this to both of you.
Geoff (05:20):
Oh, that hurt.
Léa (05:21):
I honestly, I really don't know anything about it.
That's not fair.
I know, like, what caused it,but I don't really know how it
impacted people in business, andI think, for my generation,
maybe there's a lot of parallelsthat could be made between the
financial crisis in 2008 andCOVID and the epidemic in 2020.
I think a lot of people wentinto university who are major,
maybe a bit older, started theircareer and, post COVID, they're
(05:41):
really looking for a careerchange.
Started their career and, postCOVID, they're really looking
for a career change, and maybethat plays well with your unique
ability too.
So how did that come into playin 2008?
What was your mindset that ledyou to be like you know what?
I'm going to leave somethingthat's really safe, structured,
like banking, and go intosomething that's completely new
unstructured, not bureaucratic,and go and start my own business
.
Dom (05:59):
Yeah.
Geoff (05:59):
Oh, it's, it's a.
I know the stories.
It's a good story.
Well, first it was, um, youknow, as a kid who grew up like
super poor, like I, I I chose,you know, commercial lending as
a.
I just wanted a paycheck, youknow, and, and a safe one.
And uh, it was something thatyou know the, the, the, the
(06:20):
company I worked for, was quiteaggressive, like, ultimately
worked for.
I worked for a few, but the oneI terminated with was quite an
aggressive lender.
So I got to be quiteentrepreneurial within the space
, at least for a time, andsucceeded very well.
I rose from sort of accountmanagement to running you know a
billion dollar business forthem, but very quickly, you know
(06:43):
you talk about the financialcrisis 2008, 2009, like, that
was profound effect on on somecompanies and ours was, I think,
very um was maybe impacted morethan most because of the nature
of how I won't get into themechanics of it, but the nature
of how they source their fundsto, in turn, lend out to to
clients.
It became basically a liquidovernight.
(07:04):
So my very safe job became veryunsafe in a hurry and you know
they were staring down thebarrel of.
You know, a lot of people likeme, had been around a long time,
who you know, to get rid of usbecause they needed to downsize.
They couldn't support theiroperations given the financial
(07:24):
uh, you know, they had to getrid of us and so it was.
It was actually kind of a nastybreakup.
I always say that, you know,some people leave their employer
, my employer left me.
So it was, uh, yeah, it wassomething that that didn't go
well.
Ultimately, we had to had tofight them and and uh, it all
that all turned out fine, but uh, um, it was not an easy thing
(07:44):
for a lot of people and you know, I don't know if it's a fair
comparison to call COVID in it.
Covid was such a profound like.
Never before have we stoppedthe economy, you know, and I
think we're still feeling theeffects of it and I think we
will probably for a long time.
Dom (07:59):
It's usually dynamics of how people work, like in a sense
right, how they perceive work,how they go to work, how does
work get done to some degree?
Geoff (08:06):
Yeah, exactly exactly, but I think for us in the sector
we were ground zero ofeverything when Lehman Brothers
went down.
That was it, and it was aprofound effect for that whole
sector.
Dom (08:20):
So fast forward.
After that you're somewhere inThailand planning your next move
, so maybe dive us a bit intohow you got there and what you,
how your entrepreneurial journeystarted.
Geoff (08:32):
Yeah, so well.
It was part of part of the.
The issues my my employer hadis that I had sort of a side
hustle.
Uh, it was, it wasnon-competing and it was
declared and everything else.
But you know when in thesesorts of times, those little
details get pushed aside forwhat's convenient.
But yeah, so basically we're inthe midst of this financial
(08:53):
crisis and you know, I'd beenthere long enough and had done
well enough that I, you know Iknew I wasn't going to be, you
know, eating cat food if I wasto try something more
entrepreneurial.
I've always had that bent.
I had a commercial constructionbusiness and we had some.
We built some late industrialwarehouses and then leased them
back to, in our case, to theprovince of Alberta.
(09:14):
So that was, you know,something that was existing on
the side.
So, you know, the thinking wasimmediately, we can expand that,
but it wasn't enough.
So perhaps the the greatest bitof salesmanship in my life is I
convinced the uh, the thenassociate general counsel for uh
, it's General Electric is thecompany we're talking about and
our GE Capital and convinced herto stay here in Alberta and uh,
(09:39):
uh, do something.
We enjoyed working together verywell.
So we we spent sort of thefirst year we spent just
prefacing.
You know the timeframe you'retalking about, dom.
We spent a year sort ofconsulting and just sort of
getting our feet wet and and weended up then saying, you know
what?
We got to launch something ofour own.
We're consulting.
If we're going to do all thispain and agony, we'll do it for
(10:02):
our own purposes.
Consulting is hard.
It's very hard, I don't have totell you.
So we went to.
We both loved Asia, we loveThailand and still do, and so we
went over there and we spent abetter part of three months
there and did a started withliterally post-it notes on the
(10:23):
wall of business ideas and whatwe should do, and then monsoon
blew through and blew them alldown.
So I had to start again and itwas a fantastic spot.
It was very authentic.
It was a pole house over theAndaman Sea and had internet but
no windows.
Dom (10:36):
So, if you have to take a place to brainstorm ideas, not a
bad place to be.
Geoff (10:40):
Yeah, I'm a big believer that different locations lead to
be.
Yeah, I'm a, I'm a big believerthat, you know, different
locations lead to more creativethought.
You know, I've always sort oflaughed at the notion.
You know, you can get up inyour same bed, take your same
drive into work, sit in the sameboardroom, and then it's like
oh, today.
Dom (10:57):
now be creative Right.
Geoff (10:58):
It doesn't work that way.
So you know, when your brain'son fire on something like that
figuring out how to buy food,you know, and it just, I think,
opens your mind.
So basically came back with theidea for two businesses and
paired it down to a list of twoand wrote basically the business
(11:18):
premise behind it, researchedthe hell out of them and then
came back and launched andthat's where two and they both
figuring that one would fail,like statistically, actually
they both ended up thriving andhad exits out of both of them
recently.
Dom (11:30):
And the businesses were quite different.
One was a law firm and one wasa barbershop, so they're not
exactly in the same sphere.
So maybe, really briefly, howdid you?
I think the law one will bemore apparent, but how did you
end up with a barbershop and alaw firm to start both the
reconvene business and theservice business at the same
time?
Geoff (11:48):
Yeah, well, the law firm was easy.
My partner, martine, was alawyer as a layman I read
contracts every day incommercial finance and we dealt
with a lot of lawyers and wefelt that the industry was
really ripe for disruption, thatthere was room for somebody to
(12:11):
try something different.
And, you know, I think we wereahead of the market, frankly.
But, um, you know, we ended upbuilding what is a virtual law
firm.
So we we gave basicallyin-house counsel services to
companies across the, acrossCanada.
We grew national and, um, ourlawyers either worked virtually
from home office for theseclients or they worked on the at
the client's place of business.
So, you know, the wholepunchline to the story is that,
(12:31):
you know, without the overheadthat plagues law today still
does.
Um, you know, our rates werehalf or less of for the same
lawyer, same sort of year call,same expertise, same pan.
Yeah, so, um, you know know itsounds all very smooth when I
put it that way, and you know wedid it for almost 15 years and
then caught the eye of a legaltech company out of New York,
(12:53):
multinational, who, you know, toenable this, it made us quite
tech heavy and they liked ourtech stack and kind of wanted to
expand their offerings withinthe practice of law, but doing
something different.
They had their own sort of takeon it in the States already,
and so we negotiated with themyou know sort of a protracted
(13:14):
negotiation, protracted due dealand and exited about just over
two years ago now.
Dom (13:20):
So if you take, you know most people want to start a
business because they want tostart something, grow it up,
scale it, sell it, get an exitthat allows them to have more
money than if they just had ajob for that same period of time
.
So maybe just give a bit of a.
Since you've done that for twobusinesses, maybe give us a bit
of an idea of what it was like.
Which part was harder starting,scaling or selling.
Geoff (13:44):
Well, starting's fun.
You know it's the best part.
You know scaling is probablythe hardest part.
Man, they're all difficult intheir own way.
To be honest, you know, liketaking something and making it
bigger, it really strains yourresources.
It's hard to find.
(14:04):
You know, if you need people toscale, it's hard to find the
right people quickly enough toscale.
Um, it strains working capital,it strains relationships.
You know you're very we werevery um conscious that.
You know business can veryquickly scale past what made it
special in the first place.
So, um, trying to do it rightand sort of match our supply of
(14:27):
lawyers and the demand of themarket so that we didn't have a
bunch of lawyers that we couldhire but they weren't working.
And then, or we had too muchdemand and we didn't have the
lawyers to fulfill that demand,like it was, you know sort of a
measured route to try and bringit up.
But so that was tricky and youknow was tricky and you know it.
It also, as I said, it's hardon working capital.
(14:50):
So you know we plowedeverything back in the business.
So it's not, it's not the mostfun.
It's not like you're making youknow huge dollars.
You're sort of subsisting andinvesting everything back into
infrastructure and and new stuff.
So that's that's difficult.
The the sale going through duediligence especially, to you
know, at a multinational level,sort of that is a painful
process.
Yeah, yeah, it took took almostsix months in our case.
Dom (15:14):
And I think the other part of people think of being in
business.
You look at like the businessside but forget there's a
personal, there's a humanrunning the business right and
that human has other life eventsand this and that going on.
So I'm not sure if you want togo there, but there's like I
think during the sale you werehaving some like other
challenges that would make lifecomplicated.
Geoff (15:33):
Yeah, it was.
You know there was my partner,martine.
You know she was diagnosed withcancer and you know.
So we're sort of trying tomanage that.
Like it came at the tail end ofthings, fortunately, because I
(15:55):
truly could not have done it onmy own, but it also made sort of
that transitional piece for ouracquiring company.
It made it very difficult forthem, you know, because all of a
sudden that normal transitionperiod you know where you have
the founders around and you knowthat knowledge transfer and
transition, you know piece whereyou can sort of smooth it and
smooth it with people Well, thatended really quickly.
(16:16):
You know, there's nothing moreimportant than you know health
in those kind of environments.
So you know they were left ontheir own early, which was
unfair for them.
Léa (16:29):
I do have a question actually related to that.
So you built Simplex Legal withMartine and with your partner.
So how is it building abusiness with someone who you
also have a personalrelationship with?
Because often, even infriendships or in various things
, you can be great friends orgreat partners, but really
horrible in business.
And I guess when you're in apersonal relationship with
someone too, it's hard to alwaysbe there to support the other
person because they're bothreally going through it and
really busy building a business.
So how was it?
Do you regret building it witha partner?
(16:51):
Would you recommend that othersdo it with a partner?
And, if so, how do you kind ofscale whether or not you should
start a business with yourpartner or you should look
somewhere else for someone who'sa little more removed from your
personal life?
Geoff (17:01):
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a great question.
It's there's.
There's pros and cons.
Obviously, like you know, it'snice to be able to when you want
to have a conversation, youhave complete context.
You know, like you don't haveto say, well, you know this is
this and this is happening andthis is the person and this is
why blah, blah, blah.
Like you know everything aboutwhat's going on in in your
(17:22):
professional lives, but you alsoknow everything that's going on
in your professional lives,right, and and um, it's very
difficult to make it not bleedinto the rest of your life.
You know, and if you can have abad day at the office or a
setback in the business, likeit's just not have it at home,
yeah, it's virtually impossiblenot to have your home life
(17:43):
impacted from it.
You know, and you know welearned a lot over the years and
it was very difficult to, youknow, sort of manage that piece
of it.
So we set very strict rulesthat you know, after this time,
like we did not talk about thebusiness full stop, you know.
Léa (18:01):
Like time in the day like after 10 pm.
Yeah, like time in the day likeafter 10 PM.
Geoff (18:03):
Yeah, like it was yeah, it was basically like after you
know, like supper time on, liketalk about anything else except
that.
And obviously there was timeswhere you just had no choice,
but it was uh, it was animportant thing to try and
compartmentalize and so you canactually thrive and have you
know, have a bit of a work lifebalance when your work's also at
(18:24):
home?
Léa (18:24):
No, definitely.
And with Simplex Legal, did yougo into it with the goal of
selling it, or was thatsomething that kind of just
happened along the way?
Was it hard to let go ofsomething that you've spent so
long building, or was it kind ofjust like okay, I've had a good
time, I'm kind of over it, I'mready to move on to the next
step.
Dom (18:38):
Talk about blind spots.
Yeah, what did Geoff not knowabout the business before you
started it?
Geoff (18:42):
No, kidding, that's a good one.
And that's where things aredifferent.
Like you presume a lot withanother person, especially
someone you're involved withpersonally, in that you kind of
presume that you're aligned onthings, I think, maybe sometimes
more than you actually are.
And, you know, I think I wasmuch more like okay, this thing
is, let's get it gone as soon aswe can.
You know, being think I wasmuch more like okay, this thing
(19:03):
is, let's get, get it gone assoon as we can, you know, as
soon as we have.
Being fair and reasonable toeverybody.
Obviously that's not anirresponsible statement, but uh,
you know, I think Martine wasmuch more, um, wanting to hold
on to the business and and runit sort of longer.
So, um, there was a bit of amismatch there.
(19:26):
Um, but I think by the time thatit, it sort of was at a stage
where someone would look at us.
I think she was at a placewhere it's like, okay, it's sort
of sort of lined up and andmade it.
But, um, you know, the other,the other issue that was
specific to this business thatwas particularly straining is,
you know, martina is a lawyer,you know, and it's a practice of
law, so and I'm not a lawyer,so, um, you know, she could uh
(19:51):
deal with all of that side ofthe business and she was obliged
to deal with that side of thebusiness and and I couldn't and
didn't want to deal with thatside of the business.
But you know, so everythingelse, sort of the finance side
and the marketing side andeverything that's where I got to
know Dom as an aside was mydomain, but as much as there was
(20:11):
a hard wall that prevented mefrom sort of getting in her lane
around the practice area, therewas nothing stopping her from
coming into mine.
And you know, naturally, curiouspeople and you know everyone
has ideas, and certainly aroundmarketing or finance you didn't
have an idea.
That was all mine, bored orsilly, but you know, marketing,
everyone likes to think they'vegot an opinion.
(20:31):
You know everyone, everyone'sgot an imagination around it.
So you know we, we had somefriction there, you know, over
time, to to kind of do it.
And you know, and a lawyer hasa way of thinking, it took a
little time to say, like thisisn't ready, don't take your pen
out yet, this is just a napkin,right?
This is a straw man of an idea.
So it took a little training.
But you know, by the end we gotit and we still work together,
(20:54):
you know, on business today.
So it's still good.
Dom (20:56):
So you've exited two in the last year or two exited two
companies and then, obviously,back in Thailand, you went
through a process to find thetwo that you were going to start
and I have a bit of insideinformation where looking for
something to do and trying toadjudicate the next venture.
Tell us what that process waslike and maybe where you ended
(21:20):
up, which would lead into thisother thing.
Geoff (21:23):
Yeah Well, we knew enough even at that time that we
didn't want to do something,whatever that something was like
.
Obviously it has to make senseas a business idea, like you
have to have confidence thatthere's a market for it and that
someone will buy what you'reselling, and all of that.
But we also, we were, we wereconscious not to wanted to get
(21:47):
into something that we wouldhate.
You know that would be contraryto our, our, uh, sort of our,
skills and abilities and and our, our, our, uh, yeah, yeah.
Dom (21:57):
I didn't.
Geoff (21:58):
I didn't sort of have it phrased like that clarity in my
mind then.
But, um, you know, and we, sothat was all part of it, and we,
we, we also looked at thingslike does it align with our
existing network Right, likecause?
Do we have others, others inour sort of, in our group or in
our tribe that will help us inwhatever this is?
You know, being having both.
(22:19):
You know I was in commercialfinance forever.
She was a you know a businesslawyer.
So you know we'd seen theinsides of a lot of businesses
and seeing what sort of makesthem run right and not, and so
we were cognizant of all thatand that was part of the initial
.
You know, our post-it note onthe wall kind of sorting was
sort of part and parcel to thatprocess to kind of winnow it
(22:41):
down with all that in mind.
But it was not done with anyformality, it was really sort of
out of the gut and then sort ofyou know A and B like which one
sort of fits better.
Dom (22:52):
I think along those lines, like if you took, like your
journey through the businesses,were they perfectly aligned to
what you wanted to be in?
So, for example, I have a bitof an insight around, say, the
barbershops and managing abarbershop might not be as good
on paper or an experience as itmay look on paper.
(23:12):
So I think the question wouldbe you know, I got friends of
mine who are entrepreneurs aswell and I'd say they put
themselves into entrepreneurjail so they started off back to
the.
The start.
Point's exciting you get goingand there's things in the
business that you didn't seebecause you didn't know.
And then next thing you know youcan't quit the business.
You can't give you two weeksnotice and quit because you're
in it.
(23:32):
And now you're kind of stuck.
Unless you can figure out howto get through the rocky bits or
get out, then you're in it fornot a fun ride.
So the Frank idea that you haveright.
So somewhere along the way Ithink the market has a lot of
conversations around productmarket fit, yeah, but not so
much conversations aroundventure entrepreneur fit or like
(23:54):
venture founder fit.
Geoff (23:56):
So maybe talk a bit about how Frank got started in sort
of this adjudication processwhich goes beyond just product
market fit and more into howdoes it fit the overall
ecosystem of being a founder,sure, sure it was sort of a
(24:17):
product when we had the sale ofthe law firm, you know, and it
was press released and you know,everybody knew all of a sudden
right and we we made a point toto put it out to the world and
you know.
So the phone started ringingand I at very shortly I was
looking at my whiteboard in myhome office and I had like 12
opportunities, you know, toeither to invest or participate
or buy or, you know, partner,you know all these different
(24:39):
incarnations, to be involved inthese other businesses.
And and I was just sittingthere and I was like how the
hell do I figure this out?
You know, like I need somethingbeyond just my own gut on what
makes a good business.
And I started thinking, talkingto Martine about it, and we
came up with sort of a, a, aframework, and it was like, yes,
(25:02):
the deal, the, the idea, has tomake sense and has to stand on
its own.
But then there's two other waysthat it needs to line up with
me.
Like I want it to line uptangibly, like if I don't want
to have to travel for business,I don't want to have to, if
that's the prerequisite of thatbusiness model and sort of
listing out what was importantto me around those.
(25:23):
Those sorts of things Do I, youknow?
Do I want to get income from it?
Do I want to get enterprisevalue and sell it one day, like
what is?
Or some blend of them, what is?
All the tangiblecharacteristics of this, beyond
the success or failure of thebusiness model that are
important to me and it's very,very unique to everybody.
Right, it's very bespoke what'simportant.
(25:43):
And then there's the intangiblestuff, like does it line up
with your values and ethics andis it something you'll have fun
in?
You know, is it somethingyou'll have fun in?
You know, is it somethingyou'll have pride in?
And you know that is alsoimportant.
And business is hard, it'salways hard, and it oh my, my
line is always it only lookselegant in hindsight.
You know it's a slog throughthe mud in the best of scenarios
(26:07):
and I see if it, if it lines upwith the rest of you, if it
doesn't drain you in those otherareas as well, it ensures you
against getting burnt out.
Because, dom, you're right,like you can't just leave, Like,
once you get to a certain sizeand you start bringing on
employees and or partners orinvestors, liabilities, and yeah
, yeah, and, and you can't, youcan't let it just go.
(26:30):
And you know you, you, you'rethe one who deals with all this
stuff.
You started it.
These people believed your line, you know, and they bought in,
you know, in whatever way.
Or even a supplier decided tosell you stuff and give you
stuff on terms, right Like.
You just don't want to see themstiffed because you get tired
of it, you know.
(26:50):
So you just don't allowyourself to get tired of it, and
I find there's.
Dom (26:53):
The conversation is always seems to be like how well will
the venture do, like from thatproduct market fit and can it
grow?
And very rarely, and it might be, is your partner or your
business partner like lined upin the business.
But in these other aspects of it, like does it if I don't want
to travel, or will I have fun,or and sort of these other
dimensions I don't think there'ssuch a tool out there, a
(27:14):
auditor, a diagnostic tool thatwould fit that.
So my experience was Geoff andI was sitting in the mosquito
bar in Thailand and I had anidea that would sort of take
what I'm doing, consulting andkind of morph it into something
else and on paper from a profit,you know, p&l point of view
made sense.
But I went to the tool and atthis point in time it was a
spreadsheet and at the end I hadthis big aha moment, like I do
(27:36):
not want to start this business.
It would not be fun, I wouldn'tafter six months I would not
want to get up in the morning todo it.
So, even though something elsemight be less lucrative, but I
think if it's oh, there's morethan two, more than two, yeah, I
think a couple with him.
Geoff (27:57):
Yeah, there's.
Yeah, that was for me that was.
Dom (27:59):
It doesn't make a thing if you're in the bar, but when you
go home, yeah, my goodness Iremember that place it was, but
it was enlightening.
Geoff (28:04):
It was enlightening Like I found the.
For me that was sort of theturning point, because I
developed this just for me, youknow, just for my own sort of
well-being and so that I couldparse through these ideas.
And when I saw the effect withDom, how it was like an
important insight that thisthing delivered and honestly
(28:33):
neither he nor I and quiteexperienced people, you know,
people in business Neither oneof us saw it until it was forced
through this filter.
I said you know what this is,something I'm going to do more.
So I developed more of it.
I made it into a moreformalized, accessible tool.
We're doing something with itnow.
It's a give back.
It's one I don't really care.
Dom (28:55):
What the Frank tool is today.
So it went from Excel sheet inthe mosquito bar to I can go
online and I can interact withthis tool to help an
entrepreneur decide not.
Will the venture be successfulfrom a business model point of
view?
But you as an entrepreneur, isit aligned to you to make it
successful?
Geoff (29:16):
Yeah, like it certainly touches on that, because if it's
a bad idea and obviously thisisn't it's a question and answer
kind of thing.
It can't know all, but you knowthere's some obvious red flags,
some things that you shouldreally think about that around
the business model itself, thatthat I think are germane.
But then it goes into thatalignment piece you know
(29:37):
tangibly and intangibly does.
Does this business model align?
And, um, you know it startedwith that.
And then you know I wasbasically based on the score,
kind of doing the assessmentsyou know for friends and kind of
thing, and said, okay, this iswhat this means and this score
is off, this is something youshould really think about.
And then you know I've beenreally wanting to apply AI in a
(30:00):
real world case and so I thought, well, I've got this thing sort
of sitting here, you know,coded.
And so we worked with Amy,which is an organization that
works with the University ofAlberta, sort of the bridge
between the business community.
Inentity yes, yeah between thetwo and you know we layered on,
(30:21):
basically did theinterpretations using a large
language model on it and thenobviously with us, refining it
behind the scenes and trainingit so that it could see kind of
and give these kind of responsesback with a degree of accuracy
around it, but also something atscale, and that's technology
brings scale.
Léa (30:41):
So what kind of person should take the Frank test?
Because for me, I'm not in aplace in my life where I want to
start a business, but I'd beinterested in learning more
about myself, what I'm good at,what I'm not good at, what I'm
interested in.
So obviously it can be used ifyou want to invest in a business
, if you want to start abusiness.
But even I'm thinking of likestudents who are unsure what
they're studying but theirabilities, what they're
interested in doing.
Because what you were sayingearlier really resonated with me
(31:03):
.
I know a lot of people were likebecause I went to business
school, they're like I'm inaccounting because that's easy,
as it seems.
It's a lot of work and if youhate it, who cares how much
money you have?
You're going to spend yourwhole day miserable.
So I'm wondering if studentscould even use a tool like Frank
just to learn more aboutthemselves.
Even if you're not looking tostart a business, does the
information they give you kindof just give you more context
(31:23):
for, like, what am I good at?
What can I apply my skills to?
Geoff (31:27):
I think it could.
It works best.
I'll say this Leah, it worksbest with a real live project in
mind, like, I think, in astudent application, like if
there was an entrepreneurshipclass perhaps.
Yeah, there are, I think, tosort of take the idea through it
and look at it from that.
(31:49):
And it does Like going throughand being asked questions you
wouldn't.
It's questions you wouldn'tnecessarily think to ask.
There's no magic to it, it'sjust a product of you know a
hundred years in business andwatching businesses that have
succeeded and failed, andtalking to a lot of
entrepreneurs that are a wholelot smarter than me and asking
(32:10):
them kind of what they find areimportant qualities and
questions that they would askthemselves or wish they would
have asked themselves.
So that's where it came.
So, I think, from a you know,for for people on on at every
stage of their journey, I thinkthere is an application.
I think, um, you know, as longas there's a real life, like
even if it's like I'm going tostart college pro painting, you
(32:31):
know over the summer, likethat's like why not, right?
And you will get insights intoit and insights into yourself.
And I think if you do thatalong with you know some sort of
personality testing, like, evenin abbreviated form, I think.
I think it's a good start tofiguring that whole're paying it
forward.
Dom (32:47):
So maybe just a bit, so anyone that goes to Frank, to
the Frank site and logs on touse the assessment maybe talk a
bit about like how you're payingit forward.
Geoff (33:00):
Yeah, it's.
The notion of it is to reallybe a, a chance for an
entrepreneur to just checkthemselves and validate their
ideas.
So for entrepreneurs, we haveit as something that is very
approachable and you know it's.
(33:20):
You know there's a modest costjust to support it, but it's not
meant for me to be a moneymaker.
It's got other application,like the more that it's funny.
It's like you build something,it's like building a house and
and you know, as soon as youbuild it you realize you could
huh, I could put a garage in theback and a pottery studio and I
could add on a wing and put a Band B like um, there's
(33:44):
certainly other uses for Frankthat we're looking at and you
know ways that you know couldget it and its benefits out more
broadly, but at this stagewe're still we're still just
talking.
Léa (33:56):
So so, before we move on to another topic, I know one
question that I had for you,Geoff, that actually maybe even
applies to you, dom.
So what do you do if you takethe frank test and your results
are telling you this isn't theright fit.
So how do you pivot?
Does it give you anyinformation for like, okay, so
this wasn't the right fit for me.
Here's where I went wrong.
Here's how I should apply to mynext business, Because I know
you did the original Excel sheetand told you no, this ain't it.
(34:17):
You're not going to like it ina month or two.
So how do you pivot after that?
Geoff (34:20):
Yeah, like what it looks at is it looks at the two poles
in your answer, so it looks atthings that are particularly low
scoring, you know.
But things that areparticularly low scoring, you
know.
If, for example, if you say,yeah, I use the travel example,
you say, no, you know what?
I cannot travel Just as part ofyour demographics, that you,
(34:43):
you know, sort of start thething with no travel isn't I got
a young family.
There's no way I can travel.
Then the business model thatyou're looking at, the specific
deal, if it asks you thequestion are you going to be
obliged to travel in this idea?
And it's like, yeah, I will Well, that'll flag and it'll say,
you know, there's an obviousdeparture from what you deem
important to what the model'sdoing.
(35:05):
You know, could you considerand this is where the LLM that's
sort of behind the scenes hasbeen really good at suggesting
alternatives, you know, have youconsidered, is this business
model, could it be donevirtually?
You know, is there a way to doit remotely or is there a way to
, you know, group travel in itor pivot away from it?
And so it identifies thebiggest negatives and suggests
(35:26):
ways that you could mitigatethem.
It also suggests like these arethe things that are standouts,
so make sure that you know, youkeep this in mind.
These are ways that you canemphasize whatever these strong
points are.
And also, when you're talkingto investors, you're talking to
your banks, to suppliers, likemake sure you emphasize these
points because they're germaneto people's risk assessments of
(35:48):
the business.
Dom (35:49):
Yeah, I think there's a bit of people know what they know,
they know what they don't know,and I find the assessment brings
out a bit of you don't knowwhat you don't know and those
are sort of those blind spots ofthings that will kind of get
you.
So I think by highlighting atleast now it shines a light on
it, you kind of become aware ofI'm not sure of this and then
you can explore it at least.
Geoff (36:17):
So you might find the questioning yeah, and it's.
Obviously it's not.
You know people go to schoolfor a long time to sort of sort
these things out and spendlifetimes trying to try to
answer these questions.
So it's not meant to be anexhaustive silver bullet for
everything and you know there'sgoing to be things that cannot
be contemplated in it.
But the the what I've found thegreatest use is it started some
great conversations.
They're going to raise somethings for me to say you know
what is?
It started some greatconversations.
It raised some things for me tosay you know what?
I never thought of that I'mgoing to make a phone call talk
to somebody who knows more thanI do.
Dom (36:38):
Yeah, I think chess is like business is a bit like full
contact.
Chess it's a bit of strategy,it's full contact.
So I think by having somethingthat highlights parts of the
business that you haven'texplored, at least allows you to
explore it consciously, ratherthan six months down the road
you're like, oh, I wish Ithought of that yeah, and and to
your point, lee about about youknow what to do and and pivots.
Geoff (37:01):
Pivoting gets only harder the longer you're in right,
like if you think of it asbuilding a house, like when it's
just on paper, it's very easyto make changes right once
you've got the framing done.
Okay, you can still.
Okay, let's move that wall,we'll put in this, put in that.
But, like you know, once it'sroughed in and the drywall is up
, like you know, it startsgetting really expensive and
(37:22):
really really time consuming tochange.
So you know, that's sort ofpart of this is and you asked
the question I didn't properlyanswer it is like when, and like
as early as possible, like assoon as the ideas kind of gelled
.
I think I kind of like to dothis and I think the earlier the
better, because it's reallyeasy when it's just on in your
head it's even easier to pivotand before we move on to the
(37:44):
conclusion, I have one lastquestion for you that's related
to entrepreneurship.
Léa (37:48):
So would you recommend that someone should start a business
earlier in their career, likekind of out of university in
your early 20s or is it betterto go out in the field, get a
good 10 years of experience, bemore comfortable and then start
your business?
Because I know for a lot ofpeople the concern then becomes
like, oh, if I'm in my early 30smaybe I'm married, maybe I have
kids it's going to be harder tobe working long hours versus
(38:08):
when you're in your early 20s,like I'm 23 right now.
I'm like I don't know anythingabout starting a business, like
how could I even imagine that?
So I know there's pros and consto both, but as someone who
started your business a coupleof like a good decade into your
career, would you go do itdifferently?
Would you go straight out ofuniversity, go start a career,
or do you think it's better tohave some experience?
Geoff (38:28):
That's a really, really good question.
I think there's two obviouswindows.
Like I think any time can work,and I just have all the respect
in the world for people who areentrepreneurs.
I thought when I was on theother side of the desk in
commercial lending, I thought Iknew so much and I didn't know
anything.
I knew a lot about reading afinancial statement, but the
(38:51):
realities of business it's verydifferent.
So I think there's an obviouswindow.
When you are young, when youdon't have anything to lose, you
know where you can trysomething on.
And there's, you know, the nicething about our, with the
technologies and things that wehave at our disposal today, that
(39:11):
you know you can stand up abusiness very, very fast and
very inexpensively right Likeyou can get a few few
subscriptions to some.
You know web services and toolsand and and go.
So there's.
There's a lot of opportunity todo something.
Try the market as quick as youpossibly can, like I.
My advice always is don't getlost in months and months of
(39:33):
doing business plans and allthat stuff like it.
As soon as you're in the fog ofbattle, like it all goes out
the window anyway.
You're gonna have to pivot nomatter what.
So, um, just just, yeah,there's an obvious window.
You just try something, you'lllearn a ton.
You'll probably fail, um, butyou'll be so much better off
than the next time.
And I think then there'sanother obvious window, when
you've kind of got enough in thebank or you've got a good
(39:56):
second income, to say, okay,eyes wide open, we're going to
do this and try something thatwe can build on.
Some people just know what theywant to do out of the cradle.
Léa (40:10):
I hate those people.
I'm so jealous.
Geoff (40:13):
I am too.
I still don't really know.
Dom (40:15):
So two quick questions before we wrap.
One is do you think there'slike?
So we started off the talk withwhat's your unique ability.
So do you think there's traitsthat someone should have to be
successful as an entrepreneur?
Is there sort of a standard setof personality traits that
would fit?
Geoff (40:34):
To a point, like every business is different and
demands different expertise, butsort of flying up 10,000 feet,
I think you know resilience hasto be on the list.
You know, like you, you justgot to keep getting up and
dusting yourself off and movingforward.
Getting up and dusting yourselfoff and moving forward.
Certainly, you know, creativityis one being able to articulate
(41:01):
your view and your vision toothers and to you know, to staff
and partners and investors, andthat being able to tell your
story, I'd say, you know, justoff the top of my head, I think
that's probably the top three.
Like you know, somewhere inthere, domain expertise lives.
But, you know, like thebarbershops which we, you know,
just off the top of my head, Ithink that's probably the top
three.
Like you know, somewhere intheir domain expertise lives.
But, um, you know, I, I likethe barbershops which we, you
know, touched on earlier, like Idon't cut hair I, you know, I
had a law firm I'm not a lawyerand I had a construction company
(41:23):
and hit my thumb more oftenthan the nail.
So, um, you know, you can bringother things and have domain
experts as part of your team andpart of your partnerships.
Dom (41:32):
So last question so we've got this thing where we call
three bits of advice.
So if you had to give someonewho's I don't know whether you
would call them a founder,entrepreneur or business person,
and they're somewhere in thejourney, what three bits of
advice would you have for them?
Geoff (41:45):
Oh man, I wish I could have thought about this one in
advance.
We can kind of roll back intoit.
Three bits of advice I'd sayfocus on I can't not.
We've talked about it earlierwhat you love and what you're
good at should be front andcenter around it, and you should
bring others in that bring whatyou don't have and what you're
(42:05):
not great at.
I think that's an obvious one.
I think not falling in lovewith any one idea too soon.
To look at it critically, youknow, is this there's a lot of
ideas you come up with over abar and over a beer in a bar.
Like you know, the bar roomsare full of good ideas and I
(42:28):
think not all of them are great.
They can sound good, butlooking at them in a measured
way is whether it fits.
So a frank comes in.
I guess I didn't mean that assort of a frank plug, and I
think going in and movingrelentlessly forward, like one
of the best concepts that wecame up with in our business and
when we're starting anythingtoday, is like that first 80%,
(42:51):
like just get there and then goon to the next thing because you
know the, the, the advantageyou have over everybody else,
who's better capitalized, whoknows more, you know, has all
the resources that you don't isspeed.
So you know perfection is yourenemy.
And um, uh, I think sometimesyou know you want something to
be just perfect and I think justget to that first 80% and then
(43:14):
get on to the next damn thing,yeah, and just accept it.
And freedom to fail.
There's four.
Like just to embrace failure.
You're going to fail all thetime.
Give your people freedom tofail, it's you can't.
It's like learning to ski.
Right, if you're just, you knowpizza, french fries all day,
you're not going to learn how toski.
Léa (43:31):
I love pizza You've got to fall now.
Dom (43:33):
So, Geoff, if someone wants to find out more about Frank or
go and use Frank, where shouldthey?
Geoff (43:37):
go.
It's frankadviceai.
Well, thanks for your time,Geoff, it's nothing but a
pleasure.
Léa (43:43):
Thank you so much it was so nice getting to know you better
.
It's a pleasure.
Dom (43:46):
Thanks for tuning into the show.
Hi, I'm Dominic Kingston.
Léa (00:01):
And I'm Lea Lavoie.
Dom (00:02):
Welcome to the Corp Diem Podcast
Léa (00:04):
So today we have the pleasure of talking to Geoff
Best.
Geoff started his career as abranch manager at BDC.
He worked in the bankingindustry until 2008, when the
financial crisis forced him tolook at a new career.
He then ventured into the worldof entrepreneurship with two
businesses.
The first one, simplex Legal.
The goal was to make legaladvice accessible to Canadian
businesses, add better valuewith a human touch.
(00:25):
The second one was a barbershoptwo completely different
businesses.
In 2021, he sold the company toa global firm his second
liquidity of a startup.
He's had several businessventures since, including the
tool we'll discuss today Frankthe Straight Goods.
Geoff (00:40):
It's my pleasure to be here.
Thank you both.
Dom (00:42):
So, Geoff, I've noticed I've known you for years and
I've noticed often you'll askpeople what is their unique
ability, and I've always foundthat interesting.
Where did that come from andwhy did you use that?
Geoff (00:53):
It's an interesting concept.
It's something that we stolewith honor from the strategic
coach program that my partner,martine, took, and the notion of
it is that everybody hassomething that they are
particularly good at, that theylove doing, and a lot of people
won't even realize what it is.
(01:13):
You've been doing it well sinceyou were a kid and for you it's
just natural.
You can just do it and that'swhere you should spend your time
and my whole engineering of mybusinesses.
In a perfect world, I try toengineer that everybody who's
working with me is working intheir unique ability, because I
know and it takes some time tosort out what yours is, and so I
(01:37):
spend a lot of time on thatmyself to see what it is, so
that I can just do that as muchas I possibly can, because the
stuff that I'm bad at and that Ihate doing like why on earth am
I doing that?
But so many people spend a lotof time doing that.
We're raised as kids to grindthrough stuff you hate, you know
builds character and all thatnonsense.
But you know, when the lightgoes on, you realize that the
(01:59):
stuff that you're bad at and youhate, there's some people that
love it and are good at it,right.
And if you can put them in thatspot so that they do those
things and allow you to do thestuff that you love and are good
at, like, it's a recipe forsuccess.
Dom (02:12):
That makes sense.
So have you.
So you're obviously appliedthat in the businesses that
you're being in.
Geoff (02:16):
I take it as best as I can.
Yeah, it's, it's um, it.
It does a ton of things at once.
Right, it's not easy, you haveto engineer it, but it really
allows people to um, to becomethat creative part of the puzzle
and empowered because you leavethem alone, because they're
doing stuff you know thatthey're very good at and it also
(02:36):
you know people don't hatetheir lives when they're doing
stuff they love.
That's you know.
It's.
So, for you think the wholeretention kind of conundrum that
businesses face, it's uh, it'ssomething that that that just
helps with that, without havingto do a thing other than being
conscious of what people love todo.
Dom (02:53):
Yeah, so I worked in banking and I know you have as
well.
So in banking I was not veryorganized and not very like.
My desk was a mess right and Iget in trouble for you're
disorganized and your desk is amess.
Geoff (03:04):
I've known you for many years, Dom, and it doesn't
surprise me.
Dom (03:10):
And I thought, oh, I have to work harder at this to be
better at it.
And I've discovered that it'snot going to happen.
So maybe that's why I've beenintrigued by that question that
you asked, because it's like so,if you can work within your
unique ability, it's a great fit.
And then, maybe before we getdeeper into the show, but just
to touch on it, so people oftenwill say, if you're going to
start a business, you shouldstart something about what
you're passionate about.
So is what you're passionateabout and your unique ability?
Are they the same or different?
(03:31):
And so should you start abusiness around passion or just
your unique ability?
Geoff (03:35):
No, that's a deep one and it's a lot of advice that you
get.
You know, you get a lot of thebillionaires telling you to do
that and and I don't, I don'tknow that I strictly believe it
in practice.
I think it's a nice concept andI think it's a it's admirable
and I think, you know, if peoplecan do that, that's lovely, but
it doesn't necessarily make ita good business.
(03:56):
And like, running a business ishard, right, and and it doesn't
just cause you love somethingdoesn't make it a good market,
it doesn't.
You know it can be just to say,someone's going to buy what
you're selling, right, turn ahobby into a job, and then all
of a sudden you hit your hobby,yeah, yeah, and I think you know
.
In short, I think sometimesit's better to just be really
(04:17):
good at whatever.
Opportunity you have when you'reyoung To be good at something,
to become excellent at it,opportunity you have when you're
young to be good at something,to become excellent at it.
Focus on areas where you can,can stretch that.
Those muscles that are, youknow, where you, what you love
and what you're good at, try,and you know, let's be honest,
you don't always have thosechoices when you're, you know,
(04:37):
in your first jobs or whatever,right, it's like you gotta do
what you gotta do.
But if you can, um, if you cantry and point yourself that
direction, I think you'll bebetter off.
And if over time you learn allthe skills, then maybe you can
weave into where your passionslie from that other side.
Dom (04:53):
So I think that's a good segue.
So I'll turn it over to Leah.
So let's talk a bit about GeoffBest and how you got going.
Léa (04:59):
Oh yeah, so, Geoff, you and Dom know each other well, but
for me, this is only my secondtime meeting you, so I
definitely did some onlinestalking to learn more about
your story and how you became anentrepreneur.
So I read up and I heard thatyou were in banking up until the
2008 financial crisis.
So, as someone who was sixyears old in 2008, and I'm sorry
to say this to both of you.
Geoff (05:20):
Oh, that hurt.
Léa (05:21):
I honestly, I really don't know anything about it.
That's not fair.
I know, like, what caused it,but I don't really know how it
impacted people in business, andI think, for my generation,
maybe there's a lot of parallelsthat could be made between the
financial crisis in 2008 andCOVID and the epidemic in 2020.
I think a lot of people wentinto university who are major,
maybe a bit older, started theircareer and, post COVID, they're
(05:41):
really looking for a careerchange.
Started their career and, postCOVID, they're really looking
for a career change, and maybethat plays well with your unique
ability too.
So how did that come into playin 2008?
What was your mindset that ledyou to be like you know what?
I'm going to leave somethingthat's really safe, structured,
like banking, and go intosomething that's completely new
unstructured, not bureaucratic,and go and start my own business
.
Dom (05:59):
Yeah.
Geoff (05:59):
Oh, it's, it's a.
I know the stories.
It's a good story.
Well, first it was, um, youknow, as a kid who grew up like
super poor, like I, I I chose,you know, commercial lending as
a.
I just wanted a paycheck, youknow, and, and a safe one.
And uh, it was something thatyou know the, the, the, the
(06:20):
company I worked for, was quiteaggressive, like, ultimately
worked for.
I worked for a few, but the oneI terminated with was quite an
aggressive lender.
So I got to be quiteentrepreneurial within the space
, at least for a time, andsucceeded very well.
I rose from sort of accountmanagement to running you know a
billion dollar business forthem, but very quickly, you know
(06:43):
you talk about the financialcrisis 2008, 2009, like, that
was profound effect on on somecompanies and ours was, I think,
very um was maybe impacted morethan most because of the nature
of how I won't get into themechanics of it, but the nature
of how they source their fundsto, in turn, lend out to to
clients.
It became basically a liquidovernight.
(07:04):
So my very safe job became veryunsafe in a hurry and you know
they were staring down thebarrel of.
You know, a lot of people likeme, had been around a long time,
who you know, to get rid of usbecause they needed to downsize.
They couldn't support theiroperations given the financial
(07:24):
uh, you know, they had to getrid of us and so it was.
It was actually kind of a nastybreakup.
I always say that, you know,some people leave their employer
, my employer left me.
So it was, uh, yeah, it wassomething that that didn't go
well.
Ultimately, we had to had tofight them and and uh, it all
that all turned out fine, but uh, um, it was not an easy thing
(07:44):
for a lot of people and you know, I don't know if it's a fair
comparison to call COVID in it.
Covid was such a profound like.
Never before have we stoppedthe economy, you know, and I
think we're still feeling theeffects of it and I think we
will probably for a long time.
Dom (07:59):
It's usually dynamics of how people work, like in a sense
right, how they perceive work,how they go to work, how does
work get done to some degree?
Geoff (08:06):
Yeah, exactly exactly, but I think for us in the sector
we were ground zero ofeverything when Lehman Brothers
went down.
That was it, and it was aprofound effect for that whole
sector.
Dom (08:20):
So fast forward.
After that you're somewhere inThailand planning your next move
, so maybe dive us a bit intohow you got there and what you,
how your entrepreneurial journeystarted.
Geoff (08:32):
Yeah, so well.
It was part of part of the.
The issues my my employer hadis that I had sort of a side
hustle.
Uh, it was, it wasnon-competing and it was
declared and everything else.
But you know when in thesesorts of times, those little
details get pushed aside forwhat's convenient.
But yeah, so basically we're inthe midst of this financial
(08:53):
crisis and you know, I'd beenthere long enough and had done
well enough that I, you know Iknew I wasn't going to be, you
know, eating cat food if I wasto try something more
entrepreneurial.
I've always had that bent.
I had a commercial constructionbusiness and we had some.
We built some late industrialwarehouses and then leased them
back to, in our case, to theprovince of Alberta.
(09:14):
So that was, you know,something that was existing on
the side.
So, you know, the thinking wasimmediately, we can expand that,
but it wasn't enough.
So perhaps the the greatest bitof salesmanship in my life is I
convinced the uh, the thenassociate general counsel for uh
, it's General Electric is thecompany we're talking about and
our GE Capital and convinced herto stay here in Alberta and uh,
(09:39):
uh, do something.
We enjoyed working together verywell.
So we we spent sort of thefirst year we spent just
prefacing.
You know the timeframe you'retalking about, dom.
We spent a year sort ofconsulting and just sort of
getting our feet wet and and weended up then saying, you know
what?
We got to launch something ofour own.
We're consulting.
If we're going to do all thispain and agony, we'll do it for
(10:02):
our own purposes.
Consulting is hard.
It's very hard, I don't have totell you.
So we went to.
We both loved Asia, we loveThailand and still do, and so we
went over there and we spent abetter part of three months
there and did a started withliterally post-it notes on the
(10:23):
wall of business ideas and whatwe should do, and then monsoon
blew through and blew them alldown.
So I had to start again and itwas a fantastic spot.
It was very authentic.
It was a pole house over theAndaman Sea and had internet but
no windows.
Dom (10:36):
So, if you have to take a place to brainstorm ideas, not a
bad place to be.
Geoff (10:40):
Yeah, I'm a big believer that different locations lead to
be.
Yeah, I'm a, I'm a big believerthat, you know, different
locations lead to more creativethought.
You know, I've always sort oflaughed at the notion.
You know, you can get up inyour same bed, take your same
drive into work, sit in the sameboardroom, and then it's like
oh, today.
Dom (10:57):
now be creative Right.
Geoff (10:58):
It doesn't work that way.
So you know, when your brain'son fire on something like that
figuring out how to buy food,you know, and it just, I think,
opens your mind.
So basically came back with theidea for two businesses and
paired it down to a list of twoand wrote basically the business
(11:18):
premise behind it, researchedthe hell out of them and then
came back and launched andthat's where two and they both
figuring that one would fail,like statistically, actually
they both ended up thriving andhad exits out of both of them
recently.
Dom (11:30):
And the businesses were quite different.
One was a law firm and one wasa barbershop, so they're not
exactly in the same sphere.
So maybe, really briefly, howdid you?
I think the law one will bemore apparent, but how did you
end up with a barbershop and alaw firm to start both the
reconvene business and theservice business at the same
time?
Geoff (11:48):
Yeah, well, the law firm was easy.
My partner, martine, was alawyer as a layman I read
contracts every day incommercial finance and we dealt
with a lot of lawyers and wefelt that the industry was
really ripe for disruption, thatthere was room for somebody to
(12:11):
try something different.
And, you know, I think we wereahead of the market, frankly.
But, um, you know, we ended upbuilding what is a virtual law
firm.
So we we gave basicallyin-house counsel services to
companies across the, acrossCanada.
We grew national and, um, ourlawyers either worked virtually
from home office for theseclients or they worked on the at
the client's place of business.
So, you know, the wholepunchline to the story is that,
(12:31):
you know, without the overheadthat plagues law today still
does.
Um, you know, our rates werehalf or less of for the same
lawyer, same sort of year call,same expertise, same pan.
Yeah, so, um, you know know itsounds all very smooth when I
put it that way, and you know wedid it for almost 15 years and
then caught the eye of a legaltech company out of New York,
(12:53):
multinational, who, you know, toenable this, it made us quite
tech heavy and they liked ourtech stack and kind of wanted to
expand their offerings withinthe practice of law, but doing
something different.
They had their own sort of takeon it in the States already,
and so we negotiated with themyou know sort of a protracted
(13:14):
negotiation, protracted due dealand and exited about just over
two years ago now.
Dom (13:20):
So if you take, you know most people want to start a
business because they want tostart something, grow it up,
scale it, sell it, get an exitthat allows them to have more
money than if they just had ajob for that same period of time
.
So maybe just give a bit of a.
Since you've done that for twobusinesses, maybe give us a bit
of an idea of what it was like.
Which part was harder starting,scaling or selling.
Geoff (13:44):
Well, starting's fun.
You know it's the best part.
You know scaling is probablythe hardest part.
Man, they're all difficult intheir own way.
To be honest, you know, liketaking something and making it
bigger, it really strains yourresources.
It's hard to find.
(14:04):
You know, if you need people toscale, it's hard to find the
right people quickly enough toscale.
Um, it strains working capital,it strains relationships.
You know you're very we werevery um conscious that.
You know business can veryquickly scale past what made it
special in the first place.
So, um, trying to do it rightand sort of match our supply of
(14:27):
lawyers and the demand of themarket so that we didn't have a
bunch of lawyers that we couldhire but they weren't working.
And then, or we had too muchdemand and we didn't have the
lawyers to fulfill that demand,like it was, you know sort of a
measured route to try and bringit up.
But so that was tricky and youknow was tricky and you know it.
It also, as I said, it's hardon working capital.
(14:50):
So you know we plowedeverything back in the business.
So it's not, it's not the mostfun.
It's not like you're making youknow huge dollars.
You're sort of subsisting andinvesting everything back into
infrastructure and and new stuff.
So that's that's difficult.
The the sale going through duediligence especially, to you
know, at a multinational level,sort of that is a painful
process.
Yeah, yeah, it took took almostsix months in our case.
Dom (15:14):
And I think the other part of people think of being in
business.
You look at like the businessside but forget there's a
personal, there's a humanrunning the business right and
that human has other life eventsand this and that going on.
So I'm not sure if you want togo there, but there's like I
think during the sale you werehaving some like other
challenges that would make lifecomplicated.
Geoff (15:33):
Yeah, it was.
You know there was my partner,martine.
You know she was diagnosed withcancer and you know.
So we're sort of trying tomanage that.
Like it came at the tail end ofthings, fortunately, because I
(15:55):
truly could not have done it onmy own, but it also made sort of
that transitional piece for ouracquiring company.
It made it very difficult forthem, you know, because all of a
sudden that normal transitionperiod you know where you have
the founders around and you knowthat knowledge transfer and
transition, you know piece whereyou can sort of smooth it and
smooth it with people Well, thatended really quickly.
(16:16):
You know, there's nothing moreimportant than you know health
in those kind of environments.
So you know they were left ontheir own early, which was
unfair for them.
Léa (16:29):
I do have a question actually related to that.
So you built Simplex Legal withMartine and with your partner.
So how is it building abusiness with someone who you
also have a personalrelationship with?
Because often, even infriendships or in various things
, you can be great friends orgreat partners, but really
horrible in business.
And I guess when you're in apersonal relationship with
someone too, it's hard to alwaysbe there to support the other
person because they're bothreally going through it and
really busy building a business.
So how was it?
Do you regret building it witha partner?
(16:51):
Would you recommend that othersdo it with a partner?
And, if so, how do you kind ofscale whether or not you should
start a business with yourpartner or you should look
somewhere else for someone who'sa little more removed from your
personal life?
Geoff (17:01):
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a great question.
It's there's.
There's pros and cons.
Obviously, like you know, it'snice to be able to when you want
to have a conversation, youhave complete context.
You know, like you don't haveto say, well, you know this is
this and this is happening andthis is the person and this is
why blah, blah, blah.
Like you know everything aboutwhat's going on in in your
(17:22):
professional lives, but you alsoknow everything that's going on
in your professional lives,right, and and um, it's very
difficult to make it not bleedinto the rest of your life.
You know, and if you can have abad day at the office or a
setback in the business, likeit's just not have it at home,
yeah, it's virtually impossiblenot to have your home life
(17:43):
impacted from it.
You know, and you know welearned a lot over the years and
it was very difficult to, youknow, sort of manage that piece
of it.
So we set very strict rulesthat you know, after this time,
like we did not talk about thebusiness full stop, you know.
Léa (18:01):
Like time in the day like after 10 pm.
Yeah, like time in the day likeafter 10 PM.
Geoff (18:03):
Yeah, like it was yeah, it was basically like after you
know, like supper time on, liketalk about anything else except
that.
And obviously there was timeswhere you just had no choice,
but it was uh, it was animportant thing to try and
compartmentalize and so you canactually thrive and have you
know, have a bit of a work lifebalance when your work's also at
(18:24):
home?
Léa (18:24):
No, definitely.
And with Simplex Legal, did yougo into it with the goal of
selling it, or was thatsomething that kind of just
happened along the way?
Was it hard to let go ofsomething that you've spent so
long building, or was it kind ofjust like okay, I've had a good
time, I'm kind of over it, I'mready to move on to the next
step.
Dom (18:38):
Talk about blind spots.
Yeah, what did Geoff not knowabout the business before you
started it?
Geoff (18:42):
No, kidding, that's a good one.
And that's where things aredifferent.
Like you presume a lot withanother person, especially
someone you're involved withpersonally, in that you kind of
presume that you're aligned onthings, I think, maybe sometimes
more than you actually are.
And, you know, I think I wasmuch more like okay, this thing
is, let's get it gone as soon aswe can.
You know, being think I wasmuch more like okay, this thing
(19:03):
is, let's get, get it gone assoon as we can, you know, as
soon as we have.
Being fair and reasonable toeverybody.
Obviously that's not anirresponsible statement, but uh,
you know, I think Martine wasmuch more, um, wanting to hold
on to the business and and runit sort of longer.
So, um, there was a bit of amismatch there.
(19:26):
Um, but I think by the time thatit, it sort of was at a stage
where someone would look at us.
I think she was at a placewhere it's like, okay, it's sort
of sort of lined up and andmade it.
But, um, you know, the other,the other issue that was
specific to this business thatwas particularly straining is,
you know, martina is a lawyer,you know, and it's a practice of
law, so and I'm not a lawyer,so, um, you know, she could uh
(19:51):
deal with all of that side ofthe business and she was obliged
to deal with that side of thebusiness and and I couldn't and
didn't want to deal with thatside of the business.
But you know, so everythingelse, sort of the finance side
and the marketing side andeverything that's where I got to
know Dom as an aside was mydomain, but as much as there was
(20:11):
a hard wall that prevented mefrom sort of getting in her lane
around the practice area, therewas nothing stopping her from
coming into mine.
And you know, naturally, curiouspeople and you know everyone
has ideas, and certainly aroundmarketing or finance you didn't
have an idea.
That was all mine, bored orsilly, but you know, marketing,
everyone likes to think they'vegot an opinion.
(20:31):
You know everyone, everyone'sgot an imagination around it.
So you know we, we had somefriction there, you know, over
time, to to kind of do it.
And you know, and a lawyer hasa way of thinking, it took a
little time to say, like thisisn't ready, don't take your pen
out yet, this is just a napkin,right?
This is a straw man of an idea.
So it took a little training.
But you know, by the end we gotit and we still work together,
(20:54):
you know, on business today.
So it's still good.
Dom (20:56):
So you've exited two in the last year or two exited two
companies and then, obviously,back in Thailand, you went
through a process to find thetwo that you were going to start
and I have a bit of insideinformation where looking for
something to do and trying toadjudicate the next venture.
Tell us what that process waslike and maybe where you ended
(21:20):
up, which would lead into thisother thing.
Geoff (21:23):
Yeah Well, we knew enough even at that time that we
didn't want to do something,whatever that something was like
.
Obviously it has to make senseas a business idea, like you
have to have confidence thatthere's a market for it and that
someone will buy what you'reselling, and all of that.
But we also, we were, we wereconscious not to wanted to get
(21:47):
into something that we wouldhate.
You know that would be contraryto our, our, uh, sort of our,
skills and abilities and and our, our, our, uh, yeah, yeah.
Dom (21:57):
I didn't.
Geoff (21:58):
I didn't sort of have it phrased like that clarity in my
mind then.
But, um, you know, and we, sothat was all part of it, and we,
we, we also looked at thingslike does it align with our
existing network Right, likecause?
Do we have others, others inour sort of, in our group or in
our tribe that will help us inwhatever this is?
You know, being having both.
(22:19):
You know I was in commercialfinance forever.
She was a you know a businesslawyer.
So you know we'd seen theinsides of a lot of businesses
and seeing what sort of makesthem run right and not, and so
we were cognizant of all thatand that was part of the initial
.
You know, our post-it note onthe wall kind of sorting was
sort of part and parcel to thatprocess to kind of winnow it
(22:41):
down with all that in mind.
But it was not done with anyformality, it was really sort of
out of the gut and then sort ofyou know A and B like which one
sort of fits better.
Dom (22:52):
I think along those lines, like if you took, like your
journey through the businesses,were they perfectly aligned to
what you wanted to be in?
So, for example, I have a bitof an insight around, say, the
barbershops and managing abarbershop might not be as good
on paper or an experience as itmay look on paper.
(23:12):
So I think the question wouldbe you know, I got friends of
mine who are entrepreneurs aswell and I'd say they put
themselves into entrepreneurjail so they started off back to
the.
The start.
Point's exciting you get goingand there's things in the
business that you didn't seebecause you didn't know.
And then next thing you know youcan't quit the business.
You can't give you two weeksnotice and quit because you're
in it.
(23:32):
And now you're kind of stuck.
Unless you can figure out howto get through the rocky bits or
get out, then you're in it fornot a fun ride.
So the Frank idea that you haveright.
So somewhere along the way Ithink the market has a lot of
conversations around productmarket fit, yeah, but not so
much conversations aroundventure entrepreneur fit or like
(23:54):
venture founder fit.
Geoff (23:56):
So maybe talk a bit about how Frank got started in sort
of this adjudication processwhich goes beyond just product
market fit and more into howdoes it fit the overall
ecosystem of being a founder,sure, sure it was sort of a
(24:17):
product when we had the sale ofthe law firm, you know, and it
was press released and you know,everybody knew all of a sudden
right and we we made a point toto put it out to the world and
you know.
So the phone started ringingand I at very shortly I was
looking at my whiteboard in myhome office and I had like 12
opportunities, you know, toeither to invest or participate
or buy or, you know, partner,you know all these different
(24:39):
incarnations, to be involved inthese other businesses.
And and I was just sittingthere and I was like how the
hell do I figure this out?
You know, like I need somethingbeyond just my own gut on what
makes a good business.
And I started thinking, talkingto Martine about it, and we
came up with sort of a, a, aframework, and it was like, yes,
(25:02):
the deal, the, the idea, has tomake sense and has to stand on
its own.
But then there's two other waysthat it needs to line up with
me.
Like I want it to line uptangibly, like if I don't want
to have to travel for business,I don't want to have to, if
that's the prerequisite of thatbusiness model and sort of
listing out what was importantto me around those.
(25:23):
Those sorts of things Do I, youknow?
Do I want to get income from it?
Do I want to get enterprisevalue and sell it one day, like
what is?
Or some blend of them, what is?
All the tangiblecharacteristics of this, beyond
the success or failure of thebusiness model that are
important to me and it's very,very unique to everybody.
Right, it's very bespoke what'simportant.
(25:43):
And then there's the intangiblestuff, like does it line up
with your values and ethics andis it something you'll have fun
in?
You know, is it somethingyou'll have fun in?
You know, is it somethingyou'll have pride in?
And you know that is alsoimportant.
And business is hard, it'salways hard, and it oh my, my
line is always it only lookselegant in hindsight.
You know it's a slog throughthe mud in the best of scenarios
(26:07):
and I see if it, if it lines upwith the rest of you, if it
doesn't drain you in those otherareas as well, it ensures you
against getting burnt out.
Because, dom, you're right,like you can't just leave, Like,
once you get to a certain sizeand you start bringing on
employees and or partners orinvestors, liabilities, and yeah
, yeah, and, and you can't, youcan't let it just go.
(26:30):
And you know you, you, you'rethe one who deals with all this
stuff.
You started it.
These people believed your line, you know, and they bought in,
you know, in whatever way.
Or even a supplier decided tosell you stuff and give you
stuff on terms, right Like.
You just don't want to see themstiffed because you get tired
of it, you know.
(26:50):
So you just don't allowyourself to get tired of it, and
I find there's.
Dom (26:53):
The conversation is always seems to be like how well will
the venture do, like from thatproduct market fit and can it
grow?
And very rarely, and it might be, is your partner or your
business partner like lined upin the business.
But in these other aspects of it, like does it if I don't want
to travel, or will I have fun,or and sort of these other
dimensions I don't think there'ssuch a tool out there, a
(27:14):
auditor, a diagnostic tool thatwould fit that.
So my experience was Geoff andI was sitting in the mosquito
bar in Thailand and I had anidea that would sort of take
what I'm doing, consulting andkind of morph it into something
else and on paper from a profit,you know, p&l point of view
made sense.
But I went to the tool and atthis point in time it was a
spreadsheet and at the end I hadthis big aha moment, like I do
(27:36):
not want to start this business.
It would not be fun, I wouldn'tafter six months I would not
want to get up in the morning todo it.
So, even though something elsemight be less lucrative, but I
think if it's oh, there's morethan two, more than two, yeah, I
think a couple with him.
Geoff (27:57):
Yeah, there's.
Yeah, that was for me that was.
Dom (27:59):
It doesn't make a thing if you're in the bar, but when you
go home, yeah, my goodness Iremember that place it was, but
it was enlightening.
Geoff (28:04):
It was enlightening Like I found the.
For me that was sort of theturning point, because I
developed this just for me, youknow, just for my own sort of
well-being and so that I couldparse through these ideas.
And when I saw the effect withDom, how it was like an
important insight that thisthing delivered and honestly
(28:33):
neither he nor I and quiteexperienced people, you know,
people in business Neither oneof us saw it until it was forced
through this filter.
I said you know what this is,something I'm going to do more.
So I developed more of it.
I made it into a moreformalized, accessible tool.
We're doing something with itnow.
It's a give back.
It's one I don't really care.
Dom (28:55):
What the Frank tool is today.
So it went from Excel sheet inthe mosquito bar to I can go
online and I can interact withthis tool to help an
entrepreneur decide not.
Will the venture be successfulfrom a business model point of
view?
But you as an entrepreneur, isit aligned to you to make it
successful?
Geoff (29:16):
Yeah, like it certainly touches on that, because if it's
a bad idea and obviously thisisn't it's a question and answer
kind of thing.
It can't know all, but you knowthere's some obvious red flags,
some things that you shouldreally think about that around
the business model itself, thatthat I think are germane.
But then it goes into thatalignment piece you know
(29:37):
tangibly and intangibly does.
Does this business model align?
And, um, you know it startedwith that.
And then you know I wasbasically based on the score,
kind of doing the assessmentsyou know for friends and kind of
thing, and said, okay, this iswhat this means and this score
is off, this is something youshould really think about.
And then you know I've beenreally wanting to apply AI in a
(30:00):
real world case and so I thought, well, I've got this thing sort
of sitting here, you know,coded.
And so we worked with Amy,which is an organization that
works with the University ofAlberta, sort of the bridge
between the business community.
Inentity yes, yeah between thetwo and you know we layered on,
(30:21):
basically did theinterpretations using a large
language model on it and thenobviously with us, refining it
behind the scenes and trainingit so that it could see kind of
and give these kind of responsesback with a degree of accuracy
around it, but also something atscale, and that's technology
brings scale.
Léa (30:41):
So what kind of person should take the Frank test?
Because for me, I'm not in aplace in my life where I want to
start a business, but I'd beinterested in learning more
about myself, what I'm good at,what I'm not good at, what I'm
interested in.
So obviously it can be used ifyou want to invest in a business
, if you want to start abusiness.
But even I'm thinking of likestudents who are unsure what
they're studying but theirabilities, what they're
interested in doing.
Because what you were sayingearlier really resonated with me
(31:03):
.
I know a lot of people were likebecause I went to business
school, they're like I'm inaccounting because that's easy,
as it seems.
It's a lot of work and if youhate it, who cares how much
money you have?
You're going to spend yourwhole day miserable.
So I'm wondering if studentscould even use a tool like Frank
just to learn more aboutthemselves.
Even if you're not looking tostart a business, does the
information they give you kindof just give you more context
(31:23):
for, like, what am I good at?
What can I apply my skills to?
Geoff (31:27):
I think it could.
It works best.
I'll say this Leah, it worksbest with a real live project in
mind, like, I think, in astudent application, like if
there was an entrepreneurshipclass perhaps.
Yeah, there are, I think, tosort of take the idea through it
and look at it from that.
(31:49):
And it does Like going throughand being asked questions you
wouldn't.
It's questions you wouldn'tnecessarily think to ask.
There's no magic to it, it'sjust a product of you know a
hundred years in business andwatching businesses that have
succeeded and failed, andtalking to a lot of
entrepreneurs that are a wholelot smarter than me and asking
(32:10):
them kind of what they find areimportant qualities and
questions that they would askthemselves or wish they would
have asked themselves.
So that's where it came.
So, I think, from a you know,for for people on on at every
stage of their journey, I thinkthere is an application.
I think, um, you know, as longas there's a real life, like
even if it's like I'm going tostart college pro painting, you
(32:31):
know over the summer, likethat's like why not, right?
And you will get insights intoit and insights into yourself.
And I think if you do thatalong with you know some sort of
personality testing, like, evenin abbreviated form, I think.
I think it's a good start tofiguring that whole're paying it
forward.
Dom (32:47):
So maybe just a bit, so anyone that goes to Frank, to
the Frank site and logs on touse the assessment maybe talk a
bit about like how you're payingit forward.
Geoff (33:00):
Yeah, it's.
The notion of it is to reallybe a, a chance for an
entrepreneur to just checkthemselves and validate their
ideas.
So for entrepreneurs, we haveit as something that is very
approachable and you know it's.
(33:20):
You know there's a modest costjust to support it, but it's not
meant for me to be a moneymaker.
It's got other application,like the more that it's funny.
It's like you build something,it's like building a house and
and you know, as soon as youbuild it you realize you could
huh, I could put a garage in theback and a pottery studio and I
could add on a wing and put a Band B like um, there's
(33:44):
certainly other uses for Frankthat we're looking at and you
know ways that you know couldget it and its benefits out more
broadly, but at this stagewe're still we're still just
talking.
Léa (33:56):
So so, before we move on to another topic, I know one
question that I had for you,Geoff, that actually maybe even
applies to you, dom.
So what do you do if you takethe frank test and your results
are telling you this isn't theright fit.
So how do you pivot?
Does it give you anyinformation for like, okay, so
this wasn't the right fit for me.
Here's where I went wrong.
Here's how I should apply to mynext business, Because I know
you did the original Excel sheetand told you no, this ain't it.
(34:17):
You're not going to like it ina month or two.
So how do you pivot after that?
Geoff (34:20):
Yeah, like what it looks at is it looks at the two poles
in your answer, so it looks atthings that are particularly low
scoring, you know.
But things that areparticularly low scoring, you
know.
If, for example, if you say,yeah, I use the travel example,
you say, no, you know what?
I cannot travel Just as part ofyour demographics, that you,
(34:43):
you know, sort of start thething with no travel isn't I got
a young family.
There's no way I can travel.
Then the business model thatyou're looking at, the specific
deal, if it asks you thequestion are you going to be
obliged to travel in this idea?
And it's like, yeah, I will Well, that'll flag and it'll say,
you know, there's an obviousdeparture from what you deem
important to what the model'sdoing.
(35:05):
You know, could you considerand this is where the LLM that's
sort of behind the scenes hasbeen really good at suggesting
alternatives, you know, have youconsidered, is this business
model, could it be donevirtually?
You know, is there a way to doit remotely or is there a way to
, you know, group travel in itor pivot away from it?
And so it identifies thebiggest negatives and suggests
(35:26):
ways that you could mitigatethem.
It also suggests like these arethe things that are standouts,
so make sure that you know, youkeep this in mind.
These are ways that you canemphasize whatever these strong
points are.
And also, when you're talkingto investors, you're talking to
your banks, to suppliers, likemake sure you emphasize these
points because they're germaneto people's risk assessments of
(35:48):
the business.
Dom (35:49):
Yeah, I think there's a bit of people know what they know,
they know what they don't know,and I find the assessment brings
out a bit of you don't knowwhat you don't know and those
are sort of those blind spots ofthings that will kind of get
you.
So I think by highlighting atleast now it shines a light on
it, you kind of become aware ofI'm not sure of this and then
you can explore it at least.
Geoff (36:17):
So you might find the questioning yeah, and it's.
Obviously it's not.
You know people go to schoolfor a long time to sort of sort
these things out and spendlifetimes trying to try to
answer these questions.
So it's not meant to be anexhaustive silver bullet for
everything and you know there'sgoing to be things that cannot
be contemplated in it.
But the the what I've found thegreatest use is it started some
great conversations.
They're going to raise somethings for me to say you know
what is?
It started some greatconversations.
It raised some things for me tosay you know what?
I never thought of that I'mgoing to make a phone call talk
to somebody who knows more thanI do.
Dom (36:38):
Yeah, I think chess is like business is a bit like full
contact.
Chess it's a bit of strategy,it's full contact.
So I think by having somethingthat highlights parts of the
business that you haven'texplored, at least allows you to
explore it consciously, ratherthan six months down the road
you're like, oh, I wish Ithought of that yeah, and and to
your point, lee about about youknow what to do and and pivots.
Geoff (37:01):
Pivoting gets only harder the longer you're in right,
like if you think of it asbuilding a house, like when it's
just on paper, it's very easyto make changes right once
you've got the framing done.
Okay, you can still.
Okay, let's move that wall,we'll put in this, put in that.
But, like you know, once it'sroughed in and the drywall is up
, like you know, it startsgetting really expensive and
(37:22):
really really time consuming tochange.
So you know, that's sort ofpart of this is and you asked
the question I didn't properlyanswer it is like when, and like
as early as possible, like assoon as the ideas kind of gelled
.
I think I kind of like to dothis and I think the earlier the
better, because it's reallyeasy when it's just on in your
head it's even easier to pivotand before we move on to the
(37:44):
conclusion, I have one lastquestion for you that's related
to entrepreneurship.
Léa (37:48):
So would you recommend that someone should start a business
earlier in their career, likekind of out of university in
your early 20s or is it betterto go out in the field, get a
good 10 years of experience, bemore comfortable and then start
your business?
Because I know for a lot ofpeople the concern then becomes
like, oh, if I'm in my early 30smaybe I'm married, maybe I have
kids it's going to be harder tobe working long hours versus
(38:08):
when you're in your early 20s,like I'm 23 right now.
I'm like I don't know anythingabout starting a business, like
how could I even imagine that?
So I know there's pros and consto both, but as someone who
started your business a coupleof like a good decade into your
career, would you go do itdifferently?
Would you go straight out ofuniversity, go start a career,
or do you think it's better tohave some experience?
Geoff (38:28):
That's a really, really good question.
I think there's two obviouswindows.
Like I think any time can work,and I just have all the respect
in the world for people who areentrepreneurs.
I thought when I was on theother side of the desk in
commercial lending, I thought Iknew so much and I didn't know
anything.
I knew a lot about reading afinancial statement, but the
(38:51):
realities of business it's verydifferent.
So I think there's an obviouswindow.
When you are young, when youdon't have anything to lose, you
know where you can trysomething on.
And there's, you know, the nicething about our, with the
technologies and things that wehave at our disposal today, that
(39:11):
you know you can stand up abusiness very, very fast and
very inexpensively right Likeyou can get a few few
subscriptions to some.
You know web services and toolsand and and go.
So there's.
There's a lot of opportunity todo something.
Try the market as quick as youpossibly can, like I.
My advice always is don't getlost in months and months of
(39:33):
doing business plans and allthat stuff like it.
As soon as you're in the fog ofbattle, like it all goes out
the window anyway.
You're gonna have to pivot nomatter what.
So, um, just just, yeah,there's an obvious window.
You just try something, you'lllearn a ton.
You'll probably fail, um, butyou'll be so much better off
than the next time.
And I think then there'sanother obvious window, when
you've kind of got enough in thebank or you've got a good
(39:56):
second income, to say, okay,eyes wide open, we're going to
do this and try something thatwe can build on.
Some people just know what theywant to do out of the cradle.
Léa (40:10):
I hate those people.
I'm so jealous.
Geoff (40:13):
I am too.
I still don't really know.
Dom (40:15):
So two quick questions before we wrap.
One is do you think there'slike?
So we started off the talk withwhat's your unique ability.
So do you think there's traitsthat someone should have to be
successful as an entrepreneur?
Is there sort of a standard setof personality traits that
would fit?
Geoff (40:34):
To a point, like every business is different and
demands different expertise, butsort of flying up 10,000 feet,
I think you know resilience hasto be on the list.
You know, like you, you justgot to keep getting up and
dusting yourself off and movingforward.
Getting up and dusting yourselfoff and moving forward.
Certainly, you know, creativityis one being able to articulate
(41:01):
your view and your vision toothers and to you know, to staff
and partners and investors, andthat being able to tell your
story, I'd say, you know, justoff the top of my head, I think
that's probably the top three.
Like you know, somewhere inthere, domain expertise lives.
But, you know, like thebarbershops which we, you know,
just off the top of my head, Ithink that's probably the top
three.
Like you know, somewhere intheir domain expertise lives.
But, um, you know, I, I likethe barbershops which we, you
know, touched on earlier, like Idon't cut hair I, you know, I
had a law firm I'm not a lawyerand I had a construction company
(41:23):
and hit my thumb more oftenthan the nail.
So, um, you know, you can bringother things and have domain
experts as part of your team andpart of your partnerships.
Dom (41:32):
So last question so we've got this thing where we call
three bits of advice.
So if you had to give someonewho's I don't know whether you
would call them a founder,entrepreneur or business person,
and they're somewhere in thejourney, what three bits of
advice would you have for them?
Geoff (41:45):
Oh man, I wish I could have thought about this one in
advance.
We can kind of roll back intoit.
Three bits of advice I'd sayfocus on I can't not.
We've talked about it earlierwhat you love and what you're
good at should be front andcenter around it, and you should
bring others in that bring whatyou don't have and what you're
(42:05):
not great at.
I think that's an obvious one.
I think not falling in lovewith any one idea too soon.
To look at it critically, youknow, is this there's a lot of
ideas you come up with over abar and over a beer in a bar.
Like you know, the bar roomsare full of good ideas and I
(42:28):
think not all of them are great.
They can sound good, butlooking at them in a measured
way is whether it fits.
So a frank comes in.
I guess I didn't mean that assort of a frank plug, and I
think going in and movingrelentlessly forward, like one
of the best concepts that wecame up with in our business and
when we're starting anythingtoday, is like that first 80%,
(42:51):
like just get there and then goon to the next thing because you
know the, the, the advantageyou have over everybody else,
who's better capitalized, whoknows more, you know, has all
the resources that you don't isspeed.
So you know perfection is yourenemy.
And um, uh, I think sometimesyou know you want something to
be just perfect and I think justget to that first 80% and then
(43:14):
get on to the next damn thing,yeah, and just accept it.
And freedom to fail.
There's four.
Like just to embrace failure.
You're going to fail all thetime.
Give your people freedom tofail, it's you can't.
It's like learning to ski.
Right, if you're just, you knowpizza, french fries all day,
you're not going to learn how toski.
Léa (43:31):
I love pizza You've got to fall now.
Dom (43:33):
So, Geoff, if someone wants to find out more about Frank or
go and use Frank, where shouldthey?
Geoff (43:37):
go.
It's frankadviceai.
Well, thanks for your time,Geoff, it's nothing but a
pleasure.
Léa (43:43):
Thank you so much it was so nice getting to know you better
.
It's a pleasure.
Dom (43:46):
Thanks for tuning into the show.
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