January 1, 2025 • 31 mins
Unresolved trauma can have a profound impact on our lives, from our personal well-being to our closest relationships. This episode's guest, Devra Najera, shares her incredibly moving journey through trauma and the transformative power of somatic therapy. Inspired by a pivotal EMDR session, Devra explores how reconnecting with her childhood memories provided her with the insight to address emotions physically alongside mentally. Her experiences led her to write "Somatic Therapy for Trauma" under the pen name Joy Devereaux, an insightful guide filled with practical exercises for emotional release and nervous system regulation.
In our conversation, we navigate the complexities of trauma's impact on relationships and the vital role of communication in healing. Devra candidly discusses the generational transmission of trauma and the courage it takes to break these cycles. Her personal anecdotes reveal how she has integrated self-care techniques into her daily life to manage emotional responses and foster healthier family dynamics. Devra also emphasizes the importance of listening to our body's signals and learning when to pause, drawing from both intuition and scientific evidence to guide her journey.
Finally, the emotional process of writing her personal story is explored, touching on themes of self-compassion and support networks. We highlight the value of mindful practices such as breathing techniques and proper nutrition as tools for coping with everyday challenges. Throughout the episode, Devra's insights resonate with the essence of her book, illuminating the ongoing, non-linear path of healing and the power of self-compassion in overcoming life's hurdles.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carol Park (00:03):
Good morning everyone, and welcome back to
the Courage Unmasked podcast,where we're continuing to shine
the light on vulnerability, andsuper honored to have our guest
this morning, debra Nahara, andDebra has a great story that
she's going to share about herown journey and her own courage
(00:26):
and vulnerability and how thatinspired her to actually write a
book.
And so, debra, I'm going to letyou launch into that.
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney and you deciding to
write a book journey and youdeciding to write a book.
Devra Najera (00:49):
Yeah Well, thank you for having me.
So I had decided to write thebook about somatic therapy after
going to therapy myself.
Specifically, it came upbecause I had lost three really
close people in my life in avery short period of time and it
was a very dark, rough place atthe time and I had been to
therapy off and on.
I mean, I had two parents whohad their own stuff and never, I
(01:13):
think, fully dealt with it, andthere's a piece of it where I
don't think intentionally, butthere's repercussions for that,
not just for them but for us,like their kids.
So, um, I think I kind of justkept pushing through and pushing
through and it got to thispoint where I was like I, I, I
can't.
It's like I hit a wall, Um, andit was just, it felt too like
(01:36):
it was too much to take and toooverwhelming, and therapy helped
, Um, and I ended up, you know,finding a really good therapist
who I felt like reallyunderstood.
There were some really greatones, but I just felt like it
was more so, like, oh, that'svalidating and that's that's
great.
I think you need that, but Ihad finally found one that I
felt like kind of got me alittle bit more and had kind of
pushed and we were doing somedifferent things, and so the big
(01:59):
thing that was eye opening forme is done.
Um, I had done EMDR a couple oftimes, but I had this one
session where I I had thepaddles and cause they buzz on
each hand.
It's the bilateral stimulationthat helps you reprocess the
memory.
And I was right back to beingseven and with a situation with
(02:20):
my mom, um, and her boyfriend'sbrother and he's like shoving me
up the stairs and I was scaredand mad actually, which kind of
surprised me, and I had goneright back to the place I was
having like the cold sweats andmy stomach was tight and I was
angry and sad and like I startedcrying and I was like what is
(02:42):
going on?
Um, and it was intense.
But then at the end which ispart of the whole EMDR process,
but that she brought me back todoing some deep breathing and
some grounding, and then we didsort of a safe space, um
exercise where you kind of thinkof all the things that make you
calm and everything.
And I was amazed how quickly Icould go from that, out of
(03:07):
control, in a sense, of myemotions, to back to being me
sitting in that chair andpresent, and it was so
eyeopening to me and it wasbecause it was like dealing with
all those feelings.
We were focused on the feelings, not just the thoughts that
were going on, because sometimesthe thoughts aren't real.
I clearly, like my body,thought through that situation,
(03:31):
but I wasn't and I had.
It took me having that choiceand doing those things to bring
me back to that moment andrecognizing that's not what and
getting my body to recognizethat and I just thought that was
so powerful and I didn't knowthat that was.
I didn't know that that was anoption or a choice.
So it was empowering too.
(03:51):
Like that it was the wholeexperience, like it was all of
it.
But that piece of it reallystuck out and I felt like some
people know about it and I thinkin theory, people know the
concept of it and the vagusnerve and all of that.
But it's also just the littlethings sometimes, and especially
doing the consistency, thathave the biggest impact and you
(04:12):
can do it Like someone helpedwalk me through it.
But the things in the book areall things that you can do on
your own with therapy.
Carol Park (04:20):
Yeah, I think this is the beauty of your book.
So again you put it under kindof a pen name Joy Devereaux.
And so somatic therapy fortrauma and I love your subtitle
quick exercises to releaseemotional pain and regulate the
nervous system for a powerfulmind body connection system, for
(04:47):
a powerful mind-body connection, heightened intuition and inner
peace.
And so your book, as Iexpressed to you before, you,
did an amazing job of takingsome very complex theory and
techniques and you justsimplified it, like you put it
in layman's terms, and have madeit accessible.
So I really like how you saythat oh, you know, you don't
(05:10):
necessarily even have to gothrough therapy again.
Therapy and having a traumatrained, somatic trained
therapist to guide you throughcan be very helpful.
But a lot of these techniquesthat you put in there people can
do on their own, which I thinkis the beauty of writing your
(05:31):
book which, again, as we'retalking about vulnerability,
being courage and walking intouncertainty, risk emotional
exposure.
Your book is is that?
I mean you're putting some ofyour own story and experience
which you put in the beginningof the book.
What was that like to write abook about your own personal
(05:55):
experience and being vulnerable?
That's a big word, putting itout there in order to help
others.
What was that like?
Sharing your own journey andputting it in writing.
Devra Najera (06:07):
Yeah, great and horrible at the same time,
honestly, I mean it's exciting,scary really Because anytime
you're putting yourself outthere, you know that you set
yourself up for some level ofjudgment, um, which is I'm all
(06:30):
for constructive criticism, Ilove constructive but it's not
always going to be that way, andso I had to kind of prepare for
that.
Um, the other thing is, tooit's it's.
I think there's a piece of it,too, where, as much as we've all
had unique things happen insome ways we're also not that
unique there's some tie thateveryone has experienced some
level of trauma in their life,like cause really, it's whenever
(06:53):
your system is just overloadedand you can't really process at
that moment.
So I think that there's a pieceof it where knowing that,
sharing some of my what I hadexperienced and knowing how it
could benefit, and knowingthere's gotta be other people
like me who didn't know thatthat was an option, cause I mean
(07:15):
, I've seen plenty of therapists, I've tried lots of things out
there and I still like this issomething that I don't think is
always talked about.
Like I said, I think talktherapy is extremely important.
I do, and I think this doesn'tnecessarily need to be instead
of, but at least a compliment.
At the same time.
There's times when thingshappen and you can't always get
(07:37):
ahold of your therapist orsomeone.
So knowing that you have thisin your pocket or sort of in
your toolbox, whatever you wantto be able to access and do on
your own, I think in and ofitself knowing that when you're
feeling out of control, you havethat moment to have it, where
you can be like, okay, I have anoption, I actually can choose
(07:58):
to do this to calm my systemdown is super important and just
I didn't even know that thatcould be that in and of itself,
like whatever the technique is,whatever you choose, just
knowing in that moment thatyou're you don't have to stay
stuck in that and wait for it topass or push through it, or
that you actually can dosomething about it, it's just
(08:21):
really important.
Carol Park (08:22):
Yeah, it's like to be empowered instead of feel so
overwhelmed, so out of controlthat these tools that you write
about in your book and, as atherapist who does talk therapy
I'm also trained in EMDR as wellSometimes people who are going
to do trauma work I heard thisfrom a master clinician
(08:46):
therapist, dini Laliotis, whostarted EMDR training and
teaching and doing it withclients in the 70s.
What she had kind of how shedescribes this is talk therapy.
Like it would be like if you'regoing from here to so I'm in
Texas and if you're going toCalifornia, talk therapy.
Like it would be like if you'regoing from here to so I'm in
Texas and if you're going toCalifornia, talk therapy might
(09:09):
be like, okay, we're going todrive there and stop at every
711 along the way.
Like you can get there, you canget to your destination.
But really with trauma, likeyou're describing, to some
somatic therapy, somaticexperiencing therapy, emdr, some
of those therapies it's whatshe says.
It's like getting on a planeand flying from Texas to
(09:31):
California and having some ofthat release because the body
keeps score, right?
And so part of your EMDR processis letting the body know that
that memory is over and thenopening the space to be able to
come up with new thoughts.
It's kind of, as you saidearlier some of my thoughts were
(09:52):
not correct because in traumawe can get negative beliefs that
really get stored and werespond according to that, and
so I think some of the somatictherapy really helps to open
that space to come to newbeliefs, new understandings that
don't keep us stuck.
(10:14):
So I really like how you sharedthat.
Devra Najera (10:18):
Yeah, I also think too a lot of times with talk
therapy.
I know for me there's timeswhere I've also found it
challenging because you have toaddress things head on sometimes
, which is necessary, butthere's other times if you're
not ready to have the otheroption.
And I think somatic therapy ispowerful but very gentle,
because you're focused on thefeeling sometimes and not
necessarily the specific event.
(10:39):
And so I think sometimes it canbe more soothing sometimes and
even though and you get, youstill get to a good healing
place, but in a different,softer way sometimes, which I
also think if you've had somesevere trauma, it's a great
option.
It's good.
If you've had the you knowwe've talked about the little T
(11:00):
and the capital T trauma it canwork across the board, but
especially, I think, in thosecases because if you've had
something you might not be readyto go head on and face that,
yeah, that's part of it In thesame way at least yes, the power
of the relationship with thetherapist to be able to engage
and kind of meet you where youare and help you take it at your
(11:23):
own pace.
Carol Park (11:25):
And then the resources that you talked about
tapping in like the safe space,and you may have done some
others.
But again, going back to yourbook, you were really able to
just share some of the somatictrauma therapy.
How did you find that trauma?
(11:53):
If you will just showing up inyour everyday life?
What was that?
Devra Najera (11:58):
like I think for me, like even just doing therapy
I had done therapy off and onat various points in my life,
but especially once I had kidsthat was the catalyst for me,
because I didn't you know,there's that sort of cliche but
(12:19):
you know, when you're wounded,you bleed on others, hurt people
, hurt others and I didn't wantto be and what I was going
through I was like I don't wantmy kids to ever go through this.
I don't want that to be on them.
I don't.
I mean, they're still going tohave their things and we're not.
None of us are perfect.
How can we try?
I didn't.
I could prevent that as much asI could.
I wanted to do that and so Ithink for me it showed up
(12:42):
primarily in my relationshipwith my kids and especially my
husband, who is someone who'smuch more even, keeled and well
adjusted.
He's been a really good balancefor me and also seeing and
learning to some extent too,because again, there's sometimes
early in our relationship whereI would get so upset and it was
(13:05):
like off the ledge and it waslike I couldn't step back and
see that big picture.
So I think, havingconversations we had a lot of
conversations and I think a lotof times what was going on in my
head wasn't necessarily realeither and I was bringing
something to the table that wasnot between me and him.
(13:25):
It was my own stuff.
You know that, again, your bodythinks something else is
happening a lot of times and Icould feel it and I think being
open and having theconversations and the
communication has helped a lot.
And then I also think with mykids.
(13:47):
I notice it especially more sowhen they were little, because
sometimes I would be mad.
It would be about like cause Iwas overstimulated, there was
just too much going on.
I had too much and I didn'tknow what to do with it and I
also felt like there was no, Ididn't want to freak out or
anything like that.
At the same time it was likewhere where do I put all this
that I'm feeling right now?
And there's times where, like Iwould get upset and then I
(14:08):
would make sure I wouldapologize to them, but a lot of
times I'm like it had nothing todo with them.
I might've gotten upset andyelled and it really had nothing
to do with them at all.
It was the situation.
It was my own stuff, so I woulddefinitely say relationships.
Carol Park (14:23):
Yeah, you know what it makes sense Sometimes we
might use the term traumatriggers that we just don't even
realize that something gottriggered and we're really
responding to something from thepast that got triggered in the
present.
So, learning how to recognizeand again, you went through some
of the somatic therapies tohelp release some of those
(14:48):
trauma triggers.
Excuse me, so they're not quiteas like whoa, all of a sudden
you're responding.
You can ooh, you worked itthrough some.
Devra Najera (14:58):
Oh, this is happening.
Carol Park (15:00):
Yes, yes, and then you can learn to regulate and
modulate some of those emotionsin relationships.
And yeah, you had even saidearlier, it's like you don't
blame your parents.
They didn't necessarily do someof their work, maybe for
numerous, the resources weren'tavailable, the people, weren't
(15:21):
available.
Devra Najera (15:22):
They didn't recognize it Somewhat
generational.
Carol Park (15:24):
Yes, yes.
And so for you to recognize andsay, oh, I want to do this
differently, especially for mykids and for future generations.
I want to do this differentlyAgain took so much courage and
being able to begin to write thebook.
(15:45):
How did you deal with the okay,I'm writing this book, which is
about trauma, and so how didyou do your own personal
self-care to take care ofyourself while writing such an
intense book?
Really?
Devra Najera (16:02):
There was a few times where I questioned whether
I could do it.
There was a lot of self-doubtalong the way and there was a
lot of like I don't know if thisis good enough and I'm not the
expert and who's really going towant to hear this Like, since
I'm not an expert, all thosethings that that come up.
Um, and multiple times, um, Icaught myself pushing through a
(16:27):
couple and I'd be like caughtmyself pushing through a couple
and I'd be like I felt like ahypocrite a little bit, to be
honest.
Um, because I'm like I had toremember, like I'm writing this
book about how to deal with someof the things I'm dealing with.
I need to take my own advice.
So there were several timeswhere I was like I need, I need
to go for a walk, I need to dosome deep breaths, I need to do
some visualization, um, and justtake a break and step back.
(16:48):
I think my natural kind of it'skind of a survival thing where I
, for so much of my life, I justkept pushing, just you know,
like what's the Nemo Justswimming, just keep kind of goes
through my head and I felt likethat got me really far in life.
It got me as far as it did, butthen I got to a point where it
(17:09):
was not actually helping me andI think I still catch myself
doing it.
I was doing it with the bookwhere it was like, no, just keep
going, keep going, andsometimes that is not the answer
at all.
And when I started to kind ofhit that just not feeling good
about it and not being excitingand not being focused on that
like this could help people andall the good stuff Cause the
(17:29):
thing is, there's two sides ofevery coin and where you focus
is that's where you want.
And when I found myself goingdown the more like negative road
, I needed to stop and then kindof refill, reset and then get
back on the path to where I wantto be going, where I'm driving,
and things aren't justhappening and thoughts aren't
just cause they're going tohappen.
Carol Park (18:06):
But I think I need to be aware of rer so that you
could write a book that otherscould understand and grasp and
use those tools.
So helping others sounds likeit was a huge value.
Also, not wanting to pass it onto your kids, you know, to do
things differently was anothervalue.
So, yeah, and then using thethings that you learned when you
(18:30):
found yourself oh, just keepgoing, doing, doing.
Would your body give youcertain clues that, hey, this
isn't necessarily working rightnow?
Devra Najera (18:43):
Yes, yeah, for me.
I always like, my stomachalways gets tight, my, my top
three.
My stomach always gets tightand then my shoulders always
tense and my chest feels tight.
Those are, like my go-to seemsto be, the signals.
The other thing is, sometimesI've even noticed more recently
(19:05):
too when I feel like I'm notsaying something I want to be
saying, I almost get like froggyin my throat.
It almost feels like something'sin there, um, which is, after
doing something like I think,after you have some practice too
, you're like oh, these are theones I always get, and you start
to kind of notice some of theother littler ones, or you start
to notice the ones that aren'talways there, that are there in
(19:27):
certain situations, that tellyou things like that.
So I know the subtitle is a bitof a mouthful, but that's what
the intuition part is, because alot of times we don't like that
, our body's doing this and wefeel out of control.
But again, the other side ofthe coin is of that it's giving
us signs, it's telling ussomething.
So, instead of looking at thatand being like I don't want this
, I don't want this, it could belike okay, instead of I don't
(19:49):
want this.
What is it trying to tell me?
What is the why is this?
Why?
Why is it happening?
And taking a minute to sit andlook at that, and a lot of times
you're like, oh okay, this iswhy and it's happening right now
.
So I actually don't need to feelthis way and there is just in
that moment sometimes somethingthat can be immediate release
(20:10):
because of that realizationwhich, again, I just think is so
cool and it's and there'sscience behind it too, because I
think some of this stuff somepeople can think it's kind of
like woo, woo and out there, butthere there is the science to
it with the nervous system.
So I think that was the otherpart is.
I didn't want to make that parttoo dense, but I also think
(20:31):
it's such an important part andI kind of love the science, but
I don't like to get too boggeddown in it either.
So I'm glad that that that cameoff as layman's terms enough.
Carol Park (20:42):
So yeah, it really did.
And yes, this is veryevidence-based therapy.
It's very rooted in science andthere's evidence that it really
works, you know, to help in thehealing journey.
So, yeah, there's definitely.
It can sound woo-woo and whenpeople hear it they may be like,
(21:03):
oh, I don't know about that,but yes, there's very scientific
evidence that's going to saythis is evidence based in the
treatment of.
So you also mentioned too.
So you have your values infront of you.
But doing that pause and Ithink again Brene's work when
she talks about going into thearena Me too, yes, and so you
(21:28):
writing a book?
I mean, it's a huge arena whereyou're going to put a personal
story out there, and you'reright, you're going to have the
critics and, and so how do youstay okay and not go down a
shame spiral?
And so you know, she talksabout self compassion and
(21:48):
empathy, and it sounds like yourhusband is one who does a great
job of sitting in your seat ofempathy, just being there,
seeing you, supporting you,staying out of judgment, staying
grounded, being mindful of youknow the boundaries of things
but being able to really supportyou.
So the self-compassion which Ithink part of that, you
(22:10):
mentioned common humanity.
You're not alone in this.
You know that other people havealso experienced this.
That's a huge part ofself-compassion.
Self-kindness how do you talkto yourself is also another part
.
So, yeah, how do you?
How did you rephrase maybe someof that?
(22:31):
Oh, no, am I?
Is this imposter syndrome?
How can I be writing a book?
How can I be?
How did you shift that to bemore compassionate?
Devra Najera (22:41):
Yeah, I think that's something that's a
constant practice and somethingthat, for me, has been a huge
challenge, because it's notsomething I, I didn't so my
grandmother, I was very, veryclose with my Nana, um, and she
was definitely complimentary,but she was also my Nana.
(23:02):
So there's a piece of it, too,where it's like, of course, like
you're, you know, you take itwith a grain of salt to some
extent, um, cause it's they'resupposed to think everything you
do is wonderful, but so areyour parents, but most of the
like, I didn't hear a lot ofthose things growing up at all,
um, and so there's a piece of itwhere the flip side is it's
(23:23):
made me really good at beingable to take criticism pretty,
pretty well, um.
However, there's a piece of it,too, where I am probably my own
worst critic, and there was alot of that going on.
So, again, the pause.
The pause was a big piece oflike and again, is that real?
Why do I think that thosequestions help?
(23:44):
Because you start to equalizethat a little bit more and check
.
It's a reality check, and justreminding yourself that you're
human too.
I think I get so focused onperfectionism and I've tried to
let go of that.
You know, isn't it, brene Brown?
That I'm a recoveringperfectionist.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, I will always be inrecovery for that.
(24:05):
Yes, so again, it's because I'malways trying to be the perfect
at something and that's justnot real.
So if you're trying to weighyourself against perfect, how
can you win?
So when you realize that's thebar and you take that away, that
helps.
I also think I have some reallygreat supportive friends who
(24:25):
are super positive.
So sometimes I think taking abreak and talking to them and
you know, having them be yourcheerleader and definitely my
husband he's he is verysupportive and makes they see it
different.
You know, it's just likeeveryone says talk to yourself.
You would talk to your friend.
You, you don't talk to yourselfthe same way as you would a
friend.
So sometimes you need to call,phone a friend If you, if you
(24:48):
can't get to what you want tohear from yourself, then go find
someone who, who will you justgot to know your circle.
Carol Park (24:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Devra Najera (24:56):
Phone a friend situation for sure.
Carol Park (24:59):
I like that phone, a friend, and again, a lot of
what you're sharing here too,you've put in the book as part
of these tools for the healingjourney and that can just help
in everyday life.
Whether it's based in trauma,we can all get overwhelmed by
life, and so so many of thetools that you have put in here
(25:19):
people can learn and use on aday to day basis and you know,
sometimes they may seem likebreathing, but very powerful
right, yeah, I mean we take itfor granted because we do it
every day just like eating,though we do that all the time.
Devra Najera (25:33):
And people take that for granted, too do it
every day just like eating,though we do that all the time
and people take that for grantedtoo.
Yeah, for like nutrition andthings.
Carol Park (25:37):
It's very impactful yes, it's very important.
So it's like, don't knock ittill you try it right.
So, yeah, is there any, anyadvice that you might give to
somebody who's beginning theirhealing journey, especially,
let's say, from trauma, becauseyou, that's, that's what you
wrote your book about?
Devra Najera (25:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to sort of
what we were just talking about.
Really, the self compassion, Ithink, is a really big piece and
something that when you're inthat place and if you haven't
had someone be supercompassionate before, you have
to kind of have to go andrelearn that.
And if you don't know how, Ithink being around people who do
and finding people who do sothat you can figure out how to
(26:21):
do that is so important.
So, um, I think that, juststarting out the other pieces, I
think a lot of times at leastfor me, it was like I wanted,
when I go and do something, Iwant to do it all and I want to
be done with it.
And healing is just not likethat.
It's not linear.
It's not something where you goand do it and you're like I'm
(26:43):
healed.
It's something where you canheal and you can get to a great
place.
But there's always, even if youheal, even if it's possible and
you did heal every single thingin your past you're still
living.
There's going to be stuff thathappens.
So you know, I think that it'sa constant process and just try
to be aware as much as possibleand ask yourself as many
(27:04):
questions, cause I think thatleads to something else and
leads to something else andleads to something else.
And it's those little thingswhen you can take the pressure
off and just try to just keepstaying the track on the
progress of just moving in theright direction and not being so
focused on.
I want to be healed in the endgoal, cause I know for me that's
(27:24):
sort of where I was, like I'mgoing to do all this stuff all
at once and then you becomeoverwhelmed and then you want to
do nothing.
Carol Park (27:29):
Yes, yes, so yeah it's part of that just meeting
yourself where you are right andjust being there with yourself
where you are in the mostcompassionate way possible, and
again maybe bringing in some ofthese tools that you've talked
about and that self kindness,that common humanity, the things
(27:50):
that embrace self compassion.
Well, your book is amazing andI'm so excited it's out there
for those who are trying tomaybe take the next step.
Learn some tools that they canuse.
What's next in your journey?
Where?
Devra Najera (28:10):
are you going from here?
I'm still trying to figure thatout.
You go in from here?
I'm still trying to figure thatout.
I think that I would like to doand I would like to continue
writing.
I think that that has alwaysbeen something that's kind of
been on the back burner.
I've wanted to do so this iskind of a bucket list thing and
stay within in sort of thattheme of, I guess, self-help I
(28:31):
know that gets a bad rap, but Ijust think it's really important
and continuing to work on myown sort of healing as well.
Now that I've been writing this.
I wasn't reading as much, so Ido want to get back to some more
(28:53):
reading as well, because Ithink that's been also super
important too is just because ithelps me stay focused.
I think podcasts like yours aswell, I think, also help a lot.
Um, but I'm still in the phaseof kind of figuring out what
exactly I'm doing and and this,for me, was a step in the right
direction I felt like it feltright.
So just keep, keep staying withthat, trying to lean into that
(29:18):
feeling.
Carol Park (29:19):
Yeah, I'm, I'm so grateful again, I got the book,
I read the book and I'm sograteful that you had the
courage to tell your story, toput this in terms that people
can understand, and then I thinkthat, again, that the proof is
in the pudding.
I think, as people really trythese things and begin to
(29:43):
incorporate and again, just beself-compassionate, ask
themselves like, okay, what isit that I need?
What do I want I need, what doI want?
Like what in my journey?
What to life, to love, tohealing, to whatever our journey
is and wherever we're headed, Ijust think that your book gives
(30:04):
so much truth and so manypractical tips.
So, thank you for having thecourage to write it.
Thank you for being our guesthere this morning.
Write it.
Thank you for being our guesthere this morning.
Again, everybody.
The book, somatic therapy fortrauma, joy, debra Rowe as the
author, and so, debra, thank youagain for joining us this
(30:25):
morning on the courage unmaskedpodcast.
Devra Najera (30:29):
Thank you, I really appreciate it and I hope
everyone hops onto Amazon.
Carol Park (30:35):
Yes, yes, go hop onto Amazon.
It is worth it, is well worthit.
Commix.io (30:40):
So thank you again.
Such a pleasure talking to youand, yes, everybody, go buy the
book.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a review.
It really helps us grow.
Follow us on social media forupdates and a look at what's
coming next, and a big thank youto our sponsor, comixio, for
(31:05):
supporting this journey.
Until next time, keep leadingwith courage.
Good morning everyone, and welcome back to
the Courage Unmasked podcast,where we're continuing to shine
the light on vulnerability, andsuper honored to have our guest
this morning, debra Nahara, andDebra has a great story that
she's going to share about herown journey and her own courage
(00:26):
and vulnerability and how thatinspired her to actually write a
book.
And so, debra, I'm going to letyou launch into that.
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney and you deciding to
write a book journey and youdeciding to write a book.
Devra Najera (00:49):
Yeah Well, thank you for having me.
So I had decided to write thebook about somatic therapy after
going to therapy myself.
Specifically, it came upbecause I had lost three really
close people in my life in avery short period of time and it
was a very dark, rough place atthe time and I had been to
therapy off and on.
I mean, I had two parents whohad their own stuff and never, I
(01:13):
think, fully dealt with it, andthere's a piece of it where I
don't think intentionally, butthere's repercussions for that,
not just for them but for us,like their kids.
So, um, I think I kind of justkept pushing through and pushing
through and it got to thispoint where I was like I, I, I
can't.
It's like I hit a wall, Um, andit was just, it felt too like
(01:36):
it was too much to take and toooverwhelming, and therapy helped
, Um, and I ended up, you know,finding a really good therapist
who I felt like reallyunderstood.
There were some really greatones, but I just felt like it
was more so, like, oh, that'svalidating and that's that's
great.
I think you need that, but Ihad finally found one that I
felt like kind of got me alittle bit more and had kind of
pushed and we were doing somedifferent things, and so the big
(01:59):
thing that was eye opening forme is done.
Um, I had done EMDR a couple oftimes, but I had this one
session where I I had thepaddles and cause they buzz on
each hand.
It's the bilateral stimulationthat helps you reprocess the
memory.
And I was right back to beingseven and with a situation with
(02:20):
my mom, um, and her boyfriend'sbrother and he's like shoving me
up the stairs and I was scaredand mad actually, which kind of
surprised me, and I had goneright back to the place I was
having like the cold sweats andmy stomach was tight and I was
angry and sad and like I startedcrying and I was like what is
(02:42):
going on?
Um, and it was intense.
But then at the end which ispart of the whole EMDR process,
but that she brought me back todoing some deep breathing and
some grounding, and then we didsort of a safe space, um
exercise where you kind of thinkof all the things that make you
calm and everything.
And I was amazed how quickly Icould go from that, out of
(03:07):
control, in a sense, of myemotions, to back to being me
sitting in that chair andpresent, and it was so
eyeopening to me and it wasbecause it was like dealing with
all those feelings.
We were focused on the feelings, not just the thoughts that
were going on, because sometimesthe thoughts aren't real.
I clearly, like my body,thought through that situation,
(03:31):
but I wasn't and I had.
It took me having that choiceand doing those things to bring
me back to that moment andrecognizing that's not what and
getting my body to recognizethat and I just thought that was
so powerful and I didn't knowthat that was.
I didn't know that that was anoption or a choice.
So it was empowering too.
(03:51):
Like that it was the wholeexperience, like it was all of
it.
But that piece of it reallystuck out and I felt like some
people know about it and I thinkin theory, people know the
concept of it and the vagusnerve and all of that.
But it's also just the littlethings sometimes, and especially
doing the consistency, thathave the biggest impact and you
(04:12):
can do it Like someone helpedwalk me through it.
But the things in the book areall things that you can do on
your own with therapy.
Carol Park (04:20):
Yeah, I think this is the beauty of your book.
So again you put it under kindof a pen name Joy Devereaux.
And so somatic therapy fortrauma and I love your subtitle
quick exercises to releaseemotional pain and regulate the
nervous system for a powerfulmind body connection system, for
(04:47):
a powerful mind-body connection, heightened intuition and inner
peace.
And so your book, as Iexpressed to you before, you,
did an amazing job of takingsome very complex theory and
techniques and you justsimplified it, like you put it
in layman's terms, and have madeit accessible.
So I really like how you saythat oh, you know, you don't
(05:10):
necessarily even have to gothrough therapy again.
Therapy and having a traumatrained, somatic trained
therapist to guide you throughcan be very helpful.
But a lot of these techniquesthat you put in there people can
do on their own, which I thinkis the beauty of writing your
(05:31):
book which, again, as we'retalking about vulnerability,
being courage and walking intouncertainty, risk emotional
exposure.
Your book is is that?
I mean you're putting some ofyour own story and experience
which you put in the beginningof the book.
What was that like to write abook about your own personal
(05:55):
experience and being vulnerable?
That's a big word, putting itout there in order to help
others.
What was that like?
Sharing your own journey andputting it in writing.
Devra Najera (06:07):
Yeah, great and horrible at the same time,
honestly, I mean it's exciting,scary really Because anytime
you're putting yourself outthere, you know that you set
yourself up for some level ofjudgment, um, which is I'm all
(06:30):
for constructive criticism, Ilove constructive but it's not
always going to be that way, andso I had to kind of prepare for
that.
Um, the other thing is, tooit's it's.
I think there's a piece of it,too, where, as much as we've all
had unique things happen insome ways we're also not that
unique there's some tie thateveryone has experienced some
level of trauma in their life,like cause really, it's whenever
(06:53):
your system is just overloadedand you can't really process at
that moment.
So I think that there's a pieceof it where knowing that,
sharing some of my what I hadexperienced and knowing how it
could benefit, and knowingthere's gotta be other people
like me who didn't know thatthat was an option, cause I mean
(07:15):
, I've seen plenty of therapists, I've tried lots of things out
there and I still like this issomething that I don't think is
always talked about.
Like I said, I think talktherapy is extremely important.
I do, and I think this doesn'tnecessarily need to be instead
of, but at least a compliment.
At the same time.
There's times when thingshappen and you can't always get
(07:37):
ahold of your therapist orsomeone.
So knowing that you have thisin your pocket or sort of in
your toolbox, whatever you wantto be able to access and do on
your own, I think in and ofitself knowing that when you're
feeling out of control, you havethat moment to have it, where
you can be like, okay, I have anoption, I actually can choose
(07:58):
to do this to calm my systemdown is super important and just
I didn't even know that thatcould be that in and of itself,
like whatever the technique is,whatever you choose, just
knowing in that moment thatyou're you don't have to stay
stuck in that and wait for it topass or push through it, or
that you actually can dosomething about it, it's just
(08:21):
really important.
Carol Park (08:22):
Yeah, it's like to be empowered instead of feel so
overwhelmed, so out of controlthat these tools that you write
about in your book and, as atherapist who does talk therapy
I'm also trained in EMDR as wellSometimes people who are going
to do trauma work I heard thisfrom a master clinician
(08:46):
therapist, dini Laliotis, whostarted EMDR training and
teaching and doing it withclients in the 70s.
What she had kind of how shedescribes this is talk therapy.
Like it would be like if you'regoing from here to so I'm in
Texas and if you're going toCalifornia, talk therapy.
Like it would be like if you'regoing from here to so I'm in
Texas and if you're going toCalifornia, talk therapy might
(09:09):
be like, okay, we're going todrive there and stop at every
711 along the way.
Like you can get there, you canget to your destination.
But really with trauma, likeyou're describing, to some
somatic therapy, somaticexperiencing therapy, emdr, some
of those therapies it's whatshe says.
It's like getting on a planeand flying from Texas to
(09:31):
California and having some ofthat release because the body
keeps score, right?
And so part of your EMDR processis letting the body know that
that memory is over and thenopening the space to be able to
come up with new thoughts.
It's kind of, as you saidearlier some of my thoughts were
(09:52):
not correct because in traumawe can get negative beliefs that
really get stored and werespond according to that, and
so I think some of the somatictherapy really helps to open
that space to come to newbeliefs, new understandings that
don't keep us stuck.
(10:14):
So I really like how you sharedthat.
Devra Najera (10:18):
Yeah, I also think too a lot of times with talk
therapy.
I know for me there's timeswhere I've also found it
challenging because you have toaddress things head on sometimes
, which is necessary, butthere's other times if you're
not ready to have the otheroption.
And I think somatic therapy ispowerful but very gentle,
because you're focused on thefeeling sometimes and not
necessarily the specific event.
(10:39):
And so I think sometimes it canbe more soothing sometimes and
even though and you get, youstill get to a good healing
place, but in a different,softer way sometimes, which I
also think if you've had somesevere trauma, it's a great
option.
It's good.
If you've had the you knowwe've talked about the little T
(11:00):
and the capital T trauma it canwork across the board, but
especially, I think, in thosecases because if you've had
something you might not be readyto go head on and face that,
yeah, that's part of it In thesame way at least yes, the power
of the relationship with thetherapist to be able to engage
and kind of meet you where youare and help you take it at your
(11:23):
own pace.
Carol Park (11:25):
And then the resources that you talked about
tapping in like the safe space,and you may have done some
others.
But again, going back to yourbook, you were really able to
just share some of the somatictrauma therapy.
How did you find that trauma?
(11:53):
If you will just showing up inyour everyday life?
What was that?
Devra Najera (11:58):
like I think for me, like even just doing therapy
I had done therapy off and onat various points in my life,
but especially once I had kidsthat was the catalyst for me,
because I didn't you know,there's that sort of cliche but
(12:19):
you know, when you're wounded,you bleed on others, hurt people
, hurt others and I didn't wantto be and what I was going
through I was like I don't wantmy kids to ever go through this.
I don't want that to be on them.
I don't.
I mean, they're still going tohave their things and we're not.
None of us are perfect.
How can we try?
I didn't.
I could prevent that as much asI could.
I wanted to do that and so Ithink for me it showed up
(12:42):
primarily in my relationshipwith my kids and especially my
husband, who is someone who'smuch more even, keeled and well
adjusted.
He's been a really good balancefor me and also seeing and
learning to some extent too,because again, there's sometimes
early in our relationship whereI would get so upset and it was
(13:05):
like off the ledge and it waslike I couldn't step back and
see that big picture.
So I think, havingconversations we had a lot of
conversations and I think a lotof times what was going on in my
head wasn't necessarily realeither and I was bringing
something to the table that wasnot between me and him.
(13:25):
It was my own stuff.
You know that, again, your bodythinks something else is
happening a lot of times and Icould feel it and I think being
open and having theconversations and the
communication has helped a lot.
And then I also think with mykids.
(13:47):
I notice it especially more sowhen they were little, because
sometimes I would be mad.
It would be about like cause Iwas overstimulated, there was
just too much going on.
I had too much and I didn'tknow what to do with it and I
also felt like there was no, Ididn't want to freak out or
anything like that.
At the same time it was likewhere where do I put all this
that I'm feeling right now?
And there's times where, like Iwould get upset and then I
(14:08):
would make sure I wouldapologize to them, but a lot of
times I'm like it had nothing todo with them.
I might've gotten upset andyelled and it really had nothing
to do with them at all.
It was the situation.
It was my own stuff, so I woulddefinitely say relationships.
Carol Park (14:23):
Yeah, you know what it makes sense Sometimes we
might use the term traumatriggers that we just don't even
realize that something gottriggered and we're really
responding to something from thepast that got triggered in the
present.
So, learning how to recognizeand again, you went through some
of the somatic therapies tohelp release some of those
(14:48):
trauma triggers.
Excuse me, so they're not quiteas like whoa, all of a sudden
you're responding.
You can ooh, you worked itthrough some.
Devra Najera (14:58):
Oh, this is happening.
Carol Park (15:00):
Yes, yes, and then you can learn to regulate and
modulate some of those emotionsin relationships.
And yeah, you had even saidearlier, it's like you don't
blame your parents.
They didn't necessarily do someof their work, maybe for
numerous, the resources weren'tavailable, the people, weren't
(15:21):
available.
Devra Najera (15:22):
They didn't recognize it Somewhat
generational.
Carol Park (15:24):
Yes, yes.
And so for you to recognize andsay, oh, I want to do this
differently, especially for mykids and for future generations.
I want to do this differentlyAgain took so much courage and
being able to begin to write thebook.
(15:45):
How did you deal with the okay,I'm writing this book, which is
about trauma, and so how didyou do your own personal
self-care to take care ofyourself while writing such an
intense book?
Really?
Devra Najera (16:02):
There was a few times where I questioned whether
I could do it.
There was a lot of self-doubtalong the way and there was a
lot of like I don't know if thisis good enough and I'm not the
expert and who's really going towant to hear this Like, since
I'm not an expert, all thosethings that that come up.
Um, and multiple times, um, Icaught myself pushing through a
(16:27):
couple and I'd be like caughtmyself pushing through a couple
and I'd be like I felt like ahypocrite a little bit, to be
honest.
Um, because I'm like I had toremember, like I'm writing this
book about how to deal with someof the things I'm dealing with.
I need to take my own advice.
So there were several timeswhere I was like I need, I need
to go for a walk, I need to dosome deep breaths, I need to do
some visualization, um, and justtake a break and step back.
(16:48):
I think my natural kind of it'skind of a survival thing where I
, for so much of my life, I justkept pushing, just you know,
like what's the Nemo Justswimming, just keep kind of goes
through my head and I felt likethat got me really far in life.
It got me as far as it did, butthen I got to a point where it
(17:09):
was not actually helping me andI think I still catch myself
doing it.
I was doing it with the bookwhere it was like, no, just keep
going, keep going, andsometimes that is not the answer
at all.
And when I started to kind ofhit that just not feeling good
about it and not being excitingand not being focused on that
like this could help people andall the good stuff Cause the
(17:29):
thing is, there's two sides ofevery coin and where you focus
is that's where you want.
And when I found myself goingdown the more like negative road
, I needed to stop and then kindof refill, reset and then get
back on the path to where I wantto be going, where I'm driving,
and things aren't justhappening and thoughts aren't
just cause they're going tohappen.
Carol Park (18:06):
But I think I need to be aware of rer so that you
could write a book that otherscould understand and grasp and
use those tools.
So helping others sounds likeit was a huge value.
Also, not wanting to pass it onto your kids, you know, to do
things differently was anothervalue.
So, yeah, and then using thethings that you learned when you
(18:30):
found yourself oh, just keepgoing, doing, doing.
Would your body give youcertain clues that, hey, this
isn't necessarily working rightnow?
Devra Najera (18:43):
Yes, yeah, for me.
I always like, my stomachalways gets tight, my, my top
three.
My stomach always gets tightand then my shoulders always
tense and my chest feels tight.
Those are, like my go-to seemsto be, the signals.
The other thing is, sometimesI've even noticed more recently
(19:05):
too when I feel like I'm notsaying something I want to be
saying, I almost get like froggyin my throat.
It almost feels like something'sin there, um, which is, after
doing something like I think,after you have some practice too
, you're like oh, these are theones I always get, and you start
to kind of notice some of theother littler ones, or you start
to notice the ones that aren'talways there, that are there in
(19:27):
certain situations, that tellyou things like that.
So I know the subtitle is a bitof a mouthful, but that's what
the intuition part is, because alot of times we don't like that
, our body's doing this and wefeel out of control.
But again, the other side ofthe coin is of that it's giving
us signs, it's telling ussomething.
So, instead of looking at thatand being like I don't want this
, I don't want this, it could belike okay, instead of I don't
(19:49):
want this.
What is it trying to tell me?
What is the why is this?
Why?
Why is it happening?
And taking a minute to sit andlook at that, and a lot of times
you're like, oh okay, this iswhy and it's happening right now
.
So I actually don't need to feelthis way and there is just in
that moment sometimes somethingthat can be immediate release
(20:10):
because of that realizationwhich, again, I just think is so
cool and it's and there'sscience behind it too, because I
think some of this stuff somepeople can think it's kind of
like woo, woo and out there, butthere there is the science to
it with the nervous system.
So I think that was the otherpart is.
I didn't want to make that parttoo dense, but I also think
(20:31):
it's such an important part andI kind of love the science, but
I don't like to get too boggeddown in it either.
So I'm glad that that that cameoff as layman's terms enough.
Carol Park (20:42):
So yeah, it really did.
And yes, this is veryevidence-based therapy.
It's very rooted in science andthere's evidence that it really
works, you know, to help in thehealing journey.
So, yeah, there's definitely.
It can sound woo-woo and whenpeople hear it they may be like,
(21:03):
oh, I don't know about that,but yes, there's very scientific
evidence that's going to saythis is evidence based in the
treatment of.
So you also mentioned too.
So you have your values infront of you.
But doing that pause and Ithink again Brene's work when
she talks about going into thearena Me too, yes, and so you
(21:28):
writing a book?
I mean, it's a huge arena whereyou're going to put a personal
story out there, and you'reright, you're going to have the
critics and, and so how do youstay okay and not go down a
shame spiral?
And so you know, she talksabout self compassion and
(21:48):
empathy, and it sounds like yourhusband is one who does a great
job of sitting in your seat ofempathy, just being there,
seeing you, supporting you,staying out of judgment, staying
grounded, being mindful of youknow the boundaries of things
but being able to really supportyou.
So the self-compassion which Ithink part of that, you
(22:10):
mentioned common humanity.
You're not alone in this.
You know that other people havealso experienced this.
That's a huge part ofself-compassion.
Self-kindness how do you talkto yourself is also another part
.
So, yeah, how do you?
How did you rephrase maybe someof that?
(22:31):
Oh, no, am I?
Is this imposter syndrome?
How can I be writing a book?
How can I be?
How did you shift that to bemore compassionate?
Devra Najera (22:41):
Yeah, I think that's something that's a
constant practice and somethingthat, for me, has been a huge
challenge, because it's notsomething I, I didn't so my
grandmother, I was very, veryclose with my Nana, um, and she
was definitely complimentary,but she was also my Nana.
(23:02):
So there's a piece of it, too,where it's like, of course, like
you're, you know, you take itwith a grain of salt to some
extent, um, cause it's they'resupposed to think everything you
do is wonderful, but so areyour parents, but most of the
like, I didn't hear a lot ofthose things growing up at all,
um, and so there's a piece of itwhere the flip side is it's
(23:23):
made me really good at beingable to take criticism pretty,
pretty well, um.
However, there's a piece of it,too, where I am probably my own
worst critic, and there was alot of that going on.
So, again, the pause.
The pause was a big piece oflike and again, is that real?
Why do I think that thosequestions help?
(23:44):
Because you start to equalizethat a little bit more and check
.
It's a reality check, and justreminding yourself that you're
human too.
I think I get so focused onperfectionism and I've tried to
let go of that.
You know, isn't it, brene Brown?
That I'm a recoveringperfectionist.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, I will always be inrecovery for that.
(24:05):
Yes, so again, it's because I'malways trying to be the perfect
at something and that's justnot real.
So if you're trying to weighyourself against perfect, how
can you win?
So when you realize that's thebar and you take that away, that
helps.
I also think I have some reallygreat supportive friends who
(24:25):
are super positive.
So sometimes I think taking abreak and talking to them and
you know, having them be yourcheerleader and definitely my
husband he's he is verysupportive and makes they see it
different.
You know, it's just likeeveryone says talk to yourself.
You would talk to your friend.
You, you don't talk to yourselfthe same way as you would a
friend.
So sometimes you need to call,phone a friend If you, if you
(24:48):
can't get to what you want tohear from yourself, then go find
someone who, who will you justgot to know your circle.
Carol Park (24:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Devra Najera (24:56):
Phone a friend situation for sure.
Carol Park (24:59):
I like that phone, a friend, and again, a lot of
what you're sharing here too,you've put in the book as part
of these tools for the healingjourney and that can just help
in everyday life.
Whether it's based in trauma,we can all get overwhelmed by
life, and so so many of thetools that you have put in here
(25:19):
people can learn and use on aday to day basis and you know,
sometimes they may seem likebreathing, but very powerful
right, yeah, I mean we take itfor granted because we do it
every day just like eating,though we do that all the time.
Devra Najera (25:33):
And people take that for granted, too do it
every day just like eating,though we do that all the time
and people take that for grantedtoo.
Yeah, for like nutrition andthings.
Carol Park (25:37):
It's very impactful yes, it's very important.
So it's like, don't knock ittill you try it right.
So, yeah, is there any, anyadvice that you might give to
somebody who's beginning theirhealing journey, especially,
let's say, from trauma, becauseyou, that's, that's what you
wrote your book about?
Devra Najera (25:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to sort of
what we were just talking about.
Really, the self compassion, Ithink, is a really big piece and
something that when you're inthat place and if you haven't
had someone be supercompassionate before, you have
to kind of have to go andrelearn that.
And if you don't know how, Ithink being around people who do
and finding people who do sothat you can figure out how to
(26:21):
do that is so important.
So, um, I think that, juststarting out the other pieces, I
think a lot of times at leastfor me, it was like I wanted,
when I go and do something, Iwant to do it all and I want to
be done with it.
And healing is just not likethat.
It's not linear.
It's not something where you goand do it and you're like I'm
(26:43):
healed.
It's something where you canheal and you can get to a great
place.
But there's always, even if youheal, even if it's possible and
you did heal every single thingin your past you're still
living.
There's going to be stuff thathappens.
So you know, I think that it'sa constant process and just try
to be aware as much as possibleand ask yourself as many
(27:04):
questions, cause I think thatleads to something else and
leads to something else andleads to something else.
And it's those little thingswhen you can take the pressure
off and just try to just keepstaying the track on the
progress of just moving in theright direction and not being so
focused on.
I want to be healed in the endgoal, cause I know for me that's
(27:24):
sort of where I was, like I'mgoing to do all this stuff all
at once and then you becomeoverwhelmed and then you want to
do nothing.
Carol Park (27:29):
Yes, yes, so yeah it's part of that just meeting
yourself where you are right andjust being there with yourself
where you are in the mostcompassionate way possible, and
again maybe bringing in some ofthese tools that you've talked
about and that self kindness,that common humanity, the things
(27:50):
that embrace self compassion.
Well, your book is amazing andI'm so excited it's out there
for those who are trying tomaybe take the next step.
Learn some tools that they canuse.
What's next in your journey?
Where?
Devra Najera (28:10):
are you going from here?
I'm still trying to figure thatout.
You go in from here?
I'm still trying to figure thatout.
I think that I would like to doand I would like to continue
writing.
I think that that has alwaysbeen something that's kind of
been on the back burner.
I've wanted to do so this iskind of a bucket list thing and
stay within in sort of thattheme of, I guess, self-help I
(28:31):
know that gets a bad rap, but Ijust think it's really important
and continuing to work on myown sort of healing as well.
Now that I've been writing this.
I wasn't reading as much, so Ido want to get back to some more
(28:53):
reading as well, because Ithink that's been also super
important too is just because ithelps me stay focused.
I think podcasts like yours aswell, I think, also help a lot.
Um, but I'm still in the phaseof kind of figuring out what
exactly I'm doing and and this,for me, was a step in the right
direction I felt like it feltright.
So just keep, keep staying withthat, trying to lean into that
(29:18):
feeling.
Carol Park (29:19):
Yeah, I'm, I'm so grateful again, I got the book,
I read the book and I'm sograteful that you had the
courage to tell your story, toput this in terms that people
can understand, and then I thinkthat, again, that the proof is
in the pudding.
I think, as people really trythese things and begin to
(29:43):
incorporate and again, just beself-compassionate, ask
themselves like, okay, what isit that I need?
What do I want I need, what doI want?
Like what in my journey?
What to life, to love, tohealing, to whatever our journey
is and wherever we're headed, Ijust think that your book gives
(30:04):
so much truth and so manypractical tips.
So, thank you for having thecourage to write it.
Thank you for being our guesthere this morning.
Write it.
Thank you for being our guesthere this morning.
Again, everybody.
The book, somatic therapy fortrauma, joy, debra Rowe as the
author, and so, debra, thank youagain for joining us this
(30:25):
morning on the courage unmaskedpodcast.
Devra Najera (30:29):
Thank you, I really appreciate it and I hope
everyone hops onto Amazon.
Carol Park (30:35):
Yes, yes, go hop onto Amazon.
It is worth it, is well worthit.
Commix.io (30:40):
So thank you again.
Such a pleasure talking to youand, yes, everybody, go buy the
book.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a review.
It really helps us grow.
Follow us on social media forupdates and a look at what's
coming next, and a big thank youto our sponsor, comixio, for
(31:05):
supporting this journey.
Until next time, keep leadingwith courage.
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