November 29, 2024 • 40 mins
Fire Chief Holger Durre’s journey is nothing short of inspirational. From his initial days as an aspiring medical student to his current role as a fire chief, Holger's story is one of resilience and dedication. His early experiences as an EMT and his subsequent work with ambulance services sparked a passion for public safety that has guided his career. As we chat with Chief Durre, he shares how pivotal events, like 9/11, shaped his perspective and commitment to civic engagement, ultimately leading him to key roles in Fort Collins, Boulder, and now Prescott. Holger's reflections offer a unique insight into the dedication required to lead and serve, not just in emergencies, but in fostering community partnerships.
In our conversation, Chief Durre discusses the often-overlooked power of vulnerability in personal and professional growth. Delving into his own experiences with addiction recovery, he reveals how embracing vulnerability can transform one's values and service to others. By sharing personal stories, Holger highlights the strength found in honesty and the courage required to confront personal challenges. This exploration of vulnerability underscores its role in setting healthy boundaries and fostering genuine connections, proving that it is indeed a profound source of strength rather than a weakness.
Facing the evolving demands of the fire service, Chief Durre sheds light on the emotional challenges firefighters encounter, from compassion fatigue to PTSD. He notes the positive strides towards mental health support within the profession, advocating for peer support and culturally competent clinical providers. Holger also emphasizes the importance of maintaining personal identity beyond the profession, acknowledging the unique lifestyle of firefighters. As newer generations enter the field, he expresses optimism about their potential to enhance work-life balance and community relevance, reshaping the future of the fire service for the better.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carol Park (00:03):
Hi everybody, welcome to the Courage Unmasked
podcast.
I am super excited today thatwe have Fire Chief Holger
Durrett with us today.
First, I just want to say,chief Durrett, thank you for
your service as a firstresponder, so grateful for the
work that you and your comrades,your colleagues, do to help
(00:27):
others, to serve others, and sothank you.
And then, secondly, thank youfor being a guest on the podcast
.
Like I said, I'm super excitedthat you're here.
So let's just start with youtelling us a little bit about
how you became a firefighter oryour journey to there, and then
how you became a chief of a firedepartment.
Holger Durre (00:49):
Yeah, sure, well, first of all, thank you for the
accolades, and they really kindof go to the firefighters that
are working on, sit behind adesk all day long and give them
the tools to do that job.
But I do appreciate it,especially, of course, on behalf
of the industry.
We definitely appreciate whenwe hear that.
So, and more than anything,thank you for the opportunity to
(01:10):
talk, because you know, as wechatted before this show started
, it's just a passion of both ofours and you know a lot of
folks in the fire service.
We know some folks that arealso doing this work.
So, but yeah, let's talk aboutthe journey, right.
So I was going to go to medicalschool and, right as I was going
(01:32):
into my undergrad, got an EMTcertificate, mainly to get more
skills.
Well, that made me get a jobwith an ambulance service and I
started falling in love withpublic safety in general, mainly
because it really connectedwith my need to serve others.
It really is a passion of mineand, interestingly enough, I
(01:53):
think service is going to comeup a couple of times throughout
this podcast, because service isone of the things that keeps me
healthy.
Actually, I just had to figureout a better way of doing it
than I was, maybe initially atthe beginning of my career.
But as I started progressingthrough my fire service career,
I got on with the same firedepartment that I was working
(02:14):
with, the ambulance service with, so same town, fort Collins,
colorado.
And you know, first my fireservice career started very much
like a lot of firefighters youknow got assigned to the engine
and really excited I was in myearly 20s.
It was just an amazing time,right, and I thought I was
indestructible.
Yeah, it was definitely just,you know, one of those innocent
(02:38):
times of your adulthood, if youcan say that.
Carol Park (02:40):
Yeah, this is the 20s for sure.
In our 20s.
We're all invincible, for sure,oh exactly.
Holger Durre (02:46):
You know, everything was fantastic so and
then 9-11 happens.
And 9-11 was kind of my firstexposure to really looking this
industry into its soul andfiguring out what my part was in
it and how my future was goingto go in it.
And you know, a couple of yearswent by and I got assigned to
(03:07):
fire prevention early on in mycareer, about four and a half
years into my career, and thatwas one of the best things that
could have ever happened to me,because what it forced me to do
is to get off the big red truckfor a little bit Ironically, it
was a big white truck in FortCollins at that time, was a big
(03:27):
white truck in Fort Collins atthat time and figure out how
public entities fit into thecommunity and what public
entities do for theircommunities and really how much
there is to be done in terms ofcivic engagement in this kind of
work.
And it really got me beyondthinking just about the 15
minutes of an emergency responsecall.
I really started falling inlove with public administration.
(03:48):
I love the fire service.
But then really there was thisthing new passion, right, new
fire in my belly and I ended upgetting a master's degree in
public administration as part ofthat, and then knew that I
wanted to make an impact on thenexus of what I just talked
about, that civic engagement.
How can we be a responsiblepartner with our communities?
(04:09):
How can we do more than justrespond?
And that's when the careerjourney started really was.
I knew that I wanted to be afire chief for a couple of
reasons.
I mentioned service before.
I wanted to be in a positionwhere I could be of service and
I view my role that way that I'mgiving back not just to the
(04:30):
community but also to thefirefighters that I work with.
And you know, now that I'm acity fire department chief, I
also try to be of service to theother departments.
You know, a fire department asan external service partner
tends to take a lot from theother departments and I want to
try to be mindful as much aspossible to give back in right.
Well, that led then to meleaving for Collins as a
(04:54):
battalion chief, going toBoulder for five years as a
deputy chief.
That was the first time Iworked for a city.
And then this opportunity cameup here in Prescott and it was
literally it couldn't have comeat a better time for so many
reasons, but it is where I feelthe most fulfilled I've had in
my entire career.
It's a connection with peopleand not just a fire department.
(05:16):
It's a connection with thecommunity, connection with the
other folks in the city.
It's just a great place to workand that's how I came to be a
fire chief.
There's, of course, a lot ofother folks in the city.
It's just a great place to workand that's how I came to be a
fire chief.
There's, of course, a lot ofother stuff in there.
Your previous guest, doug Kopp,and I started in the same fire
department and we actually wentto the National Fire Academy, to
the executive fire officerprogram, you know, at chief
(05:38):
school, as they call it, afterhe had already left for Collins,
and so it's really kind of coolthat you know, in a way, we we
bumped into the same person thatgot to meet you.
Carol Park (05:53):
It is so wild.
Yes, when he said I hadmentioned your name and he said
that y'all knew each other andhad gone to fire school, I was
like, wow, what a small world.
You know, yeah, you know youtalked about in there your value
of service, and I know you andI have talked about and
listeners of the podcast knowthat a lot of this stems from
Brene Brown's work aroundvulnerability, which I always
(06:16):
talk about uncertainty, risk,emotional exposure but in her
work she definitely talks aboutwhen we're going into that arena
of vulnerability, we have tohave our values in front of you.
So I hear very clearly that youare speaking to your value of
service, which is so much ofwhat you let, what led you into
(06:36):
this.
So yeah, so really too.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthat vulnerability.
So vulnerability, as you know,often gets a bad rap, especially
in high stress professions likefirefighting.
Can you speak to how you definevulnerability in the context of
your work as a fire chief?
Holger Durre (06:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would say.
I'll start that answer the wayI'm going to finish the answer,
which is you have to absolutelyknow yourself at a deeper level
and you know, vulnerability isscary, it's uncertain, it's like
you said, especially in aprofession like this, it can be
(07:21):
extremely intimidating.
But back to the value piece.
I think you brought up a reallygreat point there.
Right, I knew what attracted meto this profession service
others.
But the problem is for me, as Iwas going throughout my career,
I was using that almost as acrutch, and there to me is a
(07:41):
place where service becomesselfish because you're feeding
something inside of you that isreally just for you.
Now, service in and of itselfis, of course, very fulfilling
I'm not downplaying that butbasically I can tell you from my
experience I had taken it to alevel that was not healthy.
You know.
It was something that I was, inessence, now no longer doing
(08:03):
the act of service for the otherperson.
It was really just to fill mycup, and that is a problem and
the reason why I say that, interms of vulnerability, there's
a lot of journey.
I'm a recovering alcoholic andam a proud recovering alcoholic
(08:23):
because it made me face my ownvulnerability.
I had to.
For instance, what I justarticulated to you about my
relationship with service as avalue didn't come until I had to
do such deep work in recoverythat I would have not been
confronted with otherwise.
So for me, I say it's easy nowbecause I got hit upside the
(08:46):
head with a brick, basically myown doing right, and it was
life-saving, literally, you know, for me.
But it was also the place whereI could finally understand, you
know, because I'd read BreneBrown even before I went into
recovery and the principles andthe concept made so much more
sense to me once.
(09:08):
I had to get past that dividebecause, as I mentioned, I could
not escape from who I was, andprior to that it was a constant
escape.
Everything that I was doing inmy world, whether it was those
acts of service or drinking, itwas all about that escape from
having to confront who I reallyam, at my very core and in order
(09:32):
for me to admit not only that Ihad faults, which I always knew
, but also what do I do withthose faults.
That's what helped me Now to me, that's why vulnerability can
be a useful tool if you'refacing it for purpose.
I was able because there wasthis nexus of recovery and me
(09:55):
being so frustrated with my lifeand so many in my life being
frustrated with me that I had tokind of confront me on a whole
different level.
It wasn't transactional anymore.
I had to.
I had to transform where theconsequences were going to be
severe, and that caused me toreally understand that it's not
so scary after all.
(10:15):
That really the thing thatyou're pushing back against the
most because you're so afraiddoing the opposite and just kind
of leaning into it and lettingyourself fall just a little bit.
There is the safety net ofvulnerability right behind it,
and the reason why I use thatterm it sounds kind of weird,
(10:36):
right?
Oh, I love it Is because inthat safety net is where I could
safely live with vulnerability,not just try it out every once
in a while, not just use it, aswith vulnerability, not just try
it out every once in a while,not just use it as a slogan, not
just use it as a bumper sticker.
Right, and even in the interviewfor this job I mentioned right
away that I was in recovery.
If you had told me that even ayear before I said that, I would
(10:58):
have been mortified, absolutelymortified, you know, and it was
not vulnerability for effect,it was not vulnerability for
acceptance, it was notvulnerability to be somebody
that I wasn't Itets of recoveryis.
I have to be radically honestas much as I humanly can in my
(11:30):
life, and including with myself.
That means that I am having,just because of my personality,
I have to live very close tothat edge of, like I said, doing
things like what I justmentioned, saying, yeah, you
know, it wasn't that it was outof context, it was in the
context of the question I wasanswering at the time and I felt
like it was very important forme to make sure that they
(11:51):
understood that.
Because, again, you mentionedvalues.
I had a significant valueproblem before I had to go into
recovery and that vulnerabilityis what opened the door to all
the other values that now are sofundamental to making me a
happier person, a more fulfilledperson.
But here's the thing A personis now of service to others in a
(12:15):
healthy way.
I don't cross boundaries, Idon't do it for myself
completely.
I mean, here's the objecthonesty, right.
Do you ever do something that'scompletely selfless?
Well, you know, probably not.
But I like to make sure thatthat equation is 95% in the
other person's favor, and thatwas definitely something that
(12:38):
changed for me, andvulnerability was sort of the
passport that got me therepassport that got me there.
Carol Park (12:49):
You know, another one of Brene's sayings is owning
our story and ourselves throughthe process is the most
courageous thing we'll ever do,which, as you're alluding to,
takes so much vulnerability.
But I think, a lot of times toothat we think that owning our
story is owning it with all theother people.
But even as you've alluded toyour recovery process, it's like
(13:12):
I think, first and foremost, weown our story with ourselves,
which takes a lot of shame,resilience, you know, we come to
that place where we go oh, thispart of me that, oh, I'm seeing
and I don't want other peopleto see.
We own that first withourselves in a loving,
(13:33):
self-compassionate way, which Ihear what you're saying about,
the bumper stickers Sometimesthis language has become what I
call cliche Just say, oh,vulnerability, oh self, self
compassion and we know I meanvulnerability takes courage, it
is not weakness, it is courageand self compassion also very
(13:55):
cliche, but practicing selfkindness, knowing we're all
humans, we're all in thistogether, we all make mistakes,
we all fail, and then being veryclear, as you alluded to as
well, to our boundaries, whereother people begin and end and
where we begin and end, and notcrossing those as we do our work
.
So, gosh, thank you so much forsharing that.
(14:17):
I'm so again grateful for younow on so many levels, of you
just being able to own yourstory and share it.
So I the other thought in thatis knowing that in fire service,
you know as a firefighter,where mental toughness is often
(14:39):
emphasized, how do you encourageyour team to open up about
their struggles, whetherpersonal or professional,
without feeling weak, andperhaps something about the
boundaries in there too?
But you know, I see yourcourage and your strength and
vulnerability.
How does that kind of trickledown?
How does that work with you asa fire chief?
Holger Durre (15:00):
Well, first of all , I can always do better.
Right, and I don't say thatfacetiously, because I do feel
that being open and honest aboutmy own journey helps others own
theirs.
And I knew, coming into therole of being the fire chief,
that I had a significant amountof influence around how those
(15:24):
conversations are.
And I don't mean to be tooheady, but like almost at the
subconscious level of theorganization.
Right, I mean culture.
Like they say, when you look ata brick wall, culture is the
mortar between the bricks.
It's not the bricks, it's whereare those micro decisions made?
Right, when somebody decides toseek help or decides to be
(15:47):
vulnerable?
Right.
And you would think that in thefire service we live together.
Most fire departments now arestaffed in such a way that you
basically live at your job forhalf your life.
Yeah, it is very difficult toengage in that level of
vulnerability.
I knew that if I was willing totalk about it and, more than
(16:12):
anything, model it, that wouldhopefully start turning the tide
.
Now I have to say something herethat's extraordinarily
important.
I am the luckiest fire chief onthe face of this planet because
of my department.
I have firefighters that areemotionally intelligent.
(16:32):
They are dedicated to thecommunity in a way that I've not
experienced in my community.
That's not saying anything badabout the firefighters I worked
with before at all, but I reallygot lucky when I got to be here
and it happened to be that thatapproach of leadership, of
saying I'm going to live outfront and make it okay, of
(16:53):
saying I'm going to live outfront and make it okay, helped,
hopefully, some others.
Now I have had some experiencessince I've been here that folks
have relayed to me that becauseof my approach and because of
me sharing my history and mypast, it helped them take action
, come forward, even reach outto me and want to ask.
Right, I mean there's somequestions.
(17:14):
There's a lot of organizations.
I would never call the firechief to say, hey, I'm
struggling with this thing,right, and making it okay, even
when it's difficult.
Right, I mean I am in charge ofmaking sure our policies get
followed, our regulations getfollowed, and a lot of
vulnerability can be right atthe fringe level of that right.
(17:34):
I mean somebody doesn't want todisclose they may have screwed
something up, and there's a timeand a place for that right.
But at the end of the day, it'sthe human interaction and it's
the culture that you startslowly building through setting
up an environment where you'rewilling to be like that and and
(17:55):
and you know, I mean theliterature is filled with it,
right Owning your mistakesgenuinely, not just because you
want the problem to go away.
Being willing to accept otherseven if it's not convenient for
you, right, I mean that's.
It sounds kind of strange, butit's like.
You know, if I viewed myorganization in a transactional
(18:16):
way, I would be let down everyday.
I just choose not to see itthat way.
I have rock stars, and I'm notsaying rock stars because I
ignore the faults or the problemis quite the opposite.
I truly do have rock stars.
The thing that I'm talkingabout here is I'm trying as much
as possible not to bring myneeds and my biases which is
(18:39):
impossible, but I try, right,not to bring my biases into this
so that it hopefully sets atone of safety.
Yeah, Psychological safetysafety of being ourselves,
safety of making mistakes in theright way, owning those
mistakes, but, you know, beingwilling to fail forward, those
kind of things.
I mean now I'm using clichestoo, but um, but it, it really
(19:02):
is one of those things that, um,I got to be in this role.
I decided early on.
I get to experiment what itlooks like for me to be fire
chief.
I could have tried to copyother fire chiefs.
I would have failed miserably.
Um, I had to be me, and one ofthose things being me is what I
just talked about.
It's hopefully being a littlebit more approachable than some,
(19:23):
making sure that I accept myneeds in stride and my you know,
and have my ego in a placewhere I can hold myself
accountable so others don't haveto.
Now, I fail, I fail daily, I do, and it's.
(19:45):
But again, it's thatenvironment, that willingness,
right, yeah, that you startseeing things in the environment
.
There are opportunities forbuilding a more vulnerable
culture when you shift yourperspective to see it.
Yeah, and that is my job, right, I mean, there's informal
leaders, and if the fire chiefdoesn't believe in it and isn't
(20:09):
willing to do the work himselfor herself, then it can only go
so far, yeah.
Carol Park (20:16):
You know?
I am just curious did youbecause you said you have a team
of rock stars did you inheritthat or do you think that you
helped to build and grow that?
Holger Durre (20:29):
Our firefighters are an extension of an amazing
community.
Okay, that Our firefighters arean extension of an amazing
community, okay, they are ourdepartment in the state of
Arizona and they are aexpression of our community's
philosophy, our community'sculture.
A lot of them grew up here.
That's also fairly rare forAmerican fire departments
anymore.
You know, we've got folks thatare commuting 150 miles.
(20:50):
Right, our folks are connectedbecause it's their hometown and
there are generations offirefighting families here in
Prescott that go way back when.
You know, we were also thedepartment that had the Grand
Mountain Hotshot tragedy andthat, of course, impacted us at
a significant level.
(21:11):
But, more than anything, Isometimes say that being a fire
chief is like being a comedian.
It's about timing.
When I showed up, I got luckybecause my personality and where
I was at in my own journey andin my own life and my
characteristics matched upperfectly where the organization
was and hopefully still is, andit really started opening doors
(21:34):
.
Right, but it was there allalong, right, I, I, I've seen
organizations where you really,okay, we gotta, we gotta turn
the ship, we gotta, you know,confront toxic cultures and you
know, I, I, I'm fortunate Idon't have that.
Commix.io (21:52):
I don't have that need.
I don't have that problem.
Holger Durre (21:55):
Yeah, and, like I said, that's why I can't speak
more highly of our team, becausethey have their priorities
exactly where it should be, andit makes those conversations
around vulnerability easier.
Now, if there's firefighterslistening out there, we're still
firefighters.
We still do the stuff at thekitchen table that happens at
(22:20):
kitchen tables everywhere in theUnited States.
We still do all those things.
It's partially what makes thisprofession so awesome, but
there's just a different flavorthat you feel the first second
you walk through a fire stationdoor here in Prescott and that
was there long before I evershowed up.
Carol Park (22:39):
Wow, I mean it sounds like an amazing culture
and amazing team.
And yeah, just to hear to theimpact of the community that
it's a two way street.
I actually truly never thoughtof it that way.
So that the community reallyhas helped flavor the culture of
the fire department too.
(23:00):
That's kind of mind-boggling,but I get it, you know.
So thank you for sharing thattoo.
Holger Durre (23:06):
Yeah, it's that civic engagement, civic
connection I was talking about.
You know, I get to actuallylive it here it's yeah, that's
incredible.
Carol Park (23:14):
That's incredible.
So, yeah, I know we've touchedon a little bit, but with the
vulnerability and again, it's aprofession where you have to be
strong and so a lot of timesvulnerability is considered
weakness and again we keephighlighting it's actually
courage, it's just quite thecounter to weakness.
(23:36):
It takes so much courage tomove into that uncertainty, risk
, emotional exposure.
So, knowing that withfirefighting, PTSD, burnout,
stress, mental health issueswhich sometimes it can be hard
to be vulnerable and to open upand share that you may need help
(23:58):
because you're used to beingstrong and helping others, you
know.
So how does that work withinyour team or within the fire
department?
Holger Durre (24:07):
Well, let's talk about the fire service in
general, because this is oneaspect of our profession that
I'm really proud of, of the fireservice in general, because
this is one aspect of ourprofession that I'm really proud
of, not because I did anything,but because of where the fire
service is at now and where it'sheading.
We're doing a far better jobthan we used to with mental
health support.
We're doing a far better jobwith being more in touch with
(24:28):
the true grind of thisprofession.
Yeah, we run difficult calls.
There's no doubt about it.
But what I think a lot of folks, especially outside the fire
service, sometimes oftenoverlook is the daily grind.
American fire departments,exclusively, are busier than
they've ever been before.
We're all hazards responders,which means not only is it more
(24:51):
calls that are more complex, butwe also have no more.
We have to be responsible formore things.
And the other piece is we arealso a sort of a safety net
right for the communities, andthat means we run a lot of lower
acuity calls that are veryimportant.
You know these people need help, but they're not necessarily
(25:14):
the lights and sirens responses,and there are plenty of places
included here where we do a lotof that low acuity work that can
lead to compassion fatigue,that can lead to not being able
to absorb the other biggershocks that you know that
naturally come in thisprofession and we just weren't
(25:37):
doing a good enough job for, youknow, maybe the last I would
say five to 10 years I startedreally seeing it in the fire
service.
Our tragedy kind of fastforwarded it here.
But, for instance, one of thethings that is now commonplace
with American fire departmentsis to have a contract with a
culturally competent clinicalprovider, not just one person,
(25:58):
but usually a set of providersthat is able to provide
confidential, effective care,not just when firefighters are
in crisis, it's also when we arejust OK, you know, checking the
oil in the car.
It's also when we are just OK,you know, checking the oil in
the car.
And those are things that I'vereally seen change over the last
(26:20):
, like I said, five years.
That is super encouraging to me.
Now, in terms of what happenswhen you see a firefighter
struggle right, what happenswhen we face somebody in crisis.
Well, for me, getting back topersonal sides of things, I went
(26:43):
through that.
You know, I lived basically themajority of my career in not
knowing at the time in aconstant cycle of dealing with
those stresses, the PTSD, youknow, the fatigue, sleep
deprivation and all of thosethings.
But I just thought it was partof the background noise of what
was going on.
And over that time I departedfrom so many things, the joys in
(27:09):
my life, values that I reallyheld dear, that it just became
easier just to cope in differentways.
And because it was so gradualand over time, right, I didn't
really realize what washappening until it had really
gotten pretty severe.
And so the nice thing about nowI say nice I have the ability,
(27:35):
when somebody else is facingsomething similar, not only to
understand what they're goingthrough but also to have,
hopefully, next level solutions.
Now for us.
You know, if the fire chiefdoesn't show up and gets you
into treatment, that's not howthis works.
You know you got to haveconfidentiality.
I mean, of course, if theyasked me to be there I would.
But this is where our peersupport comes in.
(27:57):
Most American fire service havepeer support members.
The IFF has a center forexcellence in Maryland they're
actually building one, I think,on the West coast as well for
first responder recovery.
There's plenty of recoverycenters and when I say the word
recovery, right, most peoplethink, oh, that must be about
substance abuse.
(28:17):
Okay, yeah, there's part ofthat, right.
But I can tell you, at least inmy experience.
First of all, almost mostpeople, but definitely most
first responders, don't go intorecovery or treatment because of
a substance alone.
It is usually because they haveother co-occurring issues that
(28:41):
likely were there before theywent into the profession.
That environment that I justtalked about just begins to
exacerbate, and that wasdefinitely the case in my
situation.
Yeah, I've seen some stuff inmy career.
I can tell you that that wasnot what got me to saying I'm
done, I need to fix some stuff.
You know, I had that set ofluggage long before I even filed
(29:04):
my first application to be afirefighter.
And so for me now, like I said,that's why I feel like I'm
lucky, because I can at leastrelate, I can guide that
conversation from my currentrole without giving up my role
at the same time you know thatcould be a slippery slope, sure,
(29:26):
but also, at the same time,when I see opportunities for us
to partner with clinicallycompetent providers, this
opportunity to talk to you, thenhopefully that helps others
know that it's okay, you know,and we have to find a way, and
(29:48):
it's of course in society too.
But we have to figure out a wayto get over this part of this
profession to where we can getto a stage of being more able to
absorb those stresses.
Those stresses are always goingto be there.
We can do all kinds of thingsright, like I could, on my
whiteboard, draw all kinds ofprograms and strategies and and
(30:10):
and and.
You know, oh, let's lower,lower QD calls, and at the end
of the day there's human.
Oh, let's lower low acuitycalls, and at the end of the day
there's human beings that geton those fire trucks every day.
Those human beings have hearts,they have the feelings, they
care deeply.
That's why they're there tobegin with, and they get hit by
that compassion, fatigue andthose moral injuries constantly.
You know, and the more I thinkwe can bring that to the surface
(30:34):
in a healthy way it's basically, I guess I would say,
vulnerability at the professionlevel, not just at the
individual level the betterit'll be.
And, like I said, I'm so happyto see that the fire service is
on this journey and that they'rewalking that way.
There's still lots of work tobe done but again, culturally,
you will now see a conferenceslate of classes and it's almost
(30:56):
impossible these days to take afire service conference, you
know in aggregate, and not seeat least one or two pieces of
that conference talking aboutmental health, resiliency,
physical illness.
That's 15 years ago, thatwasn't the case.
Carol Park (31:11):
Yeah, I believe that and I think it's leaders like
yourself, like Fire Chief DougKupp, you know, willing to share
stories, be vulnerable in theleadership and then the trickle
down so that again thatpsychological safety that you
talked about, so people can feelsafe to open up, have trust, to
(31:34):
share when they have a need.
I think I hear the change and Iknow that you're part of the
change.
So amazing and thank you.
Yeah, so kind of, maybe just inclosing here any words of
advice that you'd give to youngincoming firefighters or just to
(31:59):
the profession in general.
Holger Durre (32:01):
Sure, I'd say three things.
First of all, never let theprofession define who you are.
A lot of this advice comes fromme personally.
You know, when I first got intothis role it's very common in a
public safety profession or anykind of profession, I think
where there's a uniform involved.
You know you end up almostsubconsciously becoming a
(32:24):
firefighter by identity.
You know, I was for a long timea firefighter first, and
everything else second.
But you know, first you are you.
That's number one.
You can't run away fromyourself.
It's impossible.
You are a son, a daughter, ahusband, a wife, a father, a
mother.
You're a friend.
(32:46):
You might be an athlete, youmight be, you know, a musician.
Those pieces of your identityare, as if not more important
than this profession.
This profession is one of thoseprofessions where it does
consume everything.
You don't find accountants atget togethers talking about
their profession the way thatfirefighters talk about it their
(33:08):
get togethers.
I've not yet seen an accountantthat wears a t-shirt that
resembles anything about theirprofession while they're off
duty.
You know it's locked into ouridentity everywhere.
Don't let that siren run youover the rocks is basically what
I'm saying.
There is make sure you've gotwho you are figured out, solid
(33:30):
and that you've got an identitywell beyond that.
The second thing is we'reextraordinarily fortunate.
This is one of the professionsthat gets to see not only
amazing human suffering but alsoamazing human triumph and
(33:52):
resilience and grit, not just inthe calls that we run but, you
know, even in each other.
You know, I've seen bravery notin the way that most people
think about bravery, but in thatvulnerability sense in this
profession from my coworkersover and over and over again.
And that is such a fortunatething, especially for a newer
(34:15):
firefighter.
Coming into this industry is,even when it gets frustrating,
you feel burned out.
Never forget how incrediblethis profession is.
We are so fortunate that we getto do this work and that
gratitude that comes from thatis what's gonna get you through
a lot of rough spots.
The last thing I would say andthis is you know, I think, where
(34:39):
the fire service needs to headnext is we're still a fire
department that, by and large,runs on 24-hour shifts or
different versions of 24-hourshifts.
The average work week for anAmerican firefighter is 56 hours
.
It's 2,912 hours a year.
So if you do the math, that's athird of your life.
So over the course of yourcareer, if you worked no
(35:00):
overtime, attended no committeemeetings or anything else a
third of your life, you'reliving in something that's not
your house house.
Now, the reality is is thatstaffing is difficult, the
workload is, you know, high, andso there's a lot of overtime
(35:21):
and forced overtime.
And then that identity issue.
You know this is a job that iswith you when you're at work and
away from work.
We need to figure out a way asan industry to get us away from
a 56 hour work week.
Now notice, I didn't say awayfrom a 24 hour shift, because I
think, culturally, there aresome things there that are
(35:41):
really beneficial and valuable.
Um, but we have to figure out away to get our firefighters in
an environment where they're notjust absolutely baseline
exhausted just by the base workschedule.
You know, pilots have figuredit out, over-the-road truckers
have figured it out, medicalresidents have figured it out.
You know, and we have to, Ithink, now come to the table and
(36:02):
do the same thing, and I thinkthe solution there is community
relevance.
It's how do we build again backto that civic connection, right
?
What's the role of this firedepartment in this community?
If we're not relevant to thecommunity, then we don't exist.
And I think the solution to whatI'm talking about is not just
(36:23):
in saying, oh great, let's get aforced shift on, or, you know,
let's do this.
That is, yeah, part of thesolution, but I think what we
have to do is we have to figureout what the identity looks like
for the fire service over thenext 25, 50, 75 years, and that
is going to be the work of thosethat come after the current
generation.
That's here I mean, yeah, ouryounger firefighters.
(36:45):
They're going to be fire chiefs, uh, towards the end of their
career.
I, I hope that that is theconversations that they have.
I'm starting those.
We're actually having aconversation here about shift
schedules.
Now, you know, and, like I said,shift schedules is just one
tiny little piece of this.
It's really figuring out abetter way for us to live,
(37:05):
because when the fire servicestarted, right before the Fair
Labor Standards Act came in the70s, there were two shifts in
American fire departments, andwhen FLSA and the 207k
exemptions came, that's when thethird shift started.
Well, now, washington, oregon,florida, there's a lot of
departments that are going to afourth shift.
Well, again, like I said, great, it's moving towards the right
(37:27):
thing, but still right, you'restill running those low QD calls
that we're talking about.
You're still in thatenvironment that you're talking
about and so, like I said, thethird thing I would say is to
those firefighters coming afterme help us fix that.
You know we'll be there to helpyou, obviously, as much as I can
help.
I've got another good 12 to 15years left in my career and I'll
do whatever I can to make surethat I'm part of that solution.
(37:49):
But I really throw thatchallenge to that generation,
knowing that they'reunbelievably capable, because we
have firefighters now that areso much more well-balanced than
we were when my generation camein, which was we took every
overtime that we could.
Now our firefighters come inwith their head set on right
going hey, I need to be with myfamily, I don't want to be at
(38:10):
work all the time.
Exactly, thank you, you know.
And so really, you know thechallenge is not fully passed on
to the next generation yet, butI'm hoping they take us up on
the invitation to fix it with us.
Carol Park (38:24):
I do too, and I hear your leadership in it, your
forward thinking, your passingthe torch so that it can be for
future generations offirefighters a better
environment, if you will.
So again, I'm just so gratefulthat you came on the podcast
(38:45):
today.
So so much wisdom, so manywords of wisdom, and again,
thank you for your own personalvulnerability, but also just the
culture that you're creatingand building.
It's amazing.
So again, thank you, ChiefHolger Dura, for being on our
podcast today.
Holger Durre (39:04):
Well, thank you, I really appreciate the
opportunity.
Commix.io (39:07):
Thanks for tuning in to the Courage Unmasked podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a review.
It really helps us grow.
Follow us on social media forupdates and a look at what's
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supporting this journey.
Until next time, keep leadingwith courage.
Hi everybody, welcome to the Courage Unmasked
podcast.
I am super excited today thatwe have Fire Chief Holger
Durrett with us today.
First, I just want to say,chief Durrett, thank you for
your service as a firstresponder, so grateful for the
work that you and your comrades,your colleagues, do to help
(00:27):
others, to serve others, and sothank you.
And then, secondly, thank youfor being a guest on the podcast
.
Like I said, I'm super excitedthat you're here.
So let's just start with youtelling us a little bit about
how you became a firefighter oryour journey to there, and then
how you became a chief of a firedepartment.
Holger Durre (00:49):
Yeah, sure, well, first of all, thank you for the
accolades, and they really kindof go to the firefighters that
are working on, sit behind adesk all day long and give them
the tools to do that job.
But I do appreciate it,especially, of course, on behalf
of the industry.
We definitely appreciate whenwe hear that.
So, and more than anything,thank you for the opportunity to
(01:10):
talk, because you know, as wechatted before this show started
, it's just a passion of both ofours and you know a lot of
folks in the fire service.
We know some folks that arealso doing this work.
So, but yeah, let's talk aboutthe journey, right.
So I was going to go to medicalschool and, right as I was going
(01:32):
into my undergrad, got an EMTcertificate, mainly to get more
skills.
Well, that made me get a jobwith an ambulance service and I
started falling in love withpublic safety in general, mainly
because it really connectedwith my need to serve others.
It really is a passion of mineand, interestingly enough, I
(01:53):
think service is going to comeup a couple of times throughout
this podcast, because service isone of the things that keeps me
healthy.
Actually, I just had to figureout a better way of doing it
than I was, maybe initially atthe beginning of my career.
But as I started progressingthrough my fire service career,
I got on with the same firedepartment that I was working
(02:14):
with, the ambulance service with, so same town, fort Collins,
colorado.
And you know, first my fireservice career started very much
like a lot of firefighters youknow got assigned to the engine
and really excited I was in myearly 20s.
It was just an amazing time,right, and I thought I was
indestructible.
Yeah, it was definitely just,you know, one of those innocent
(02:38):
times of your adulthood, if youcan say that.
Carol Park (02:40):
Yeah, this is the 20s for sure.
In our 20s.
We're all invincible, for sure,oh exactly.
Holger Durre (02:46):
You know, everything was fantastic so and
then 9-11 happens.
And 9-11 was kind of my firstexposure to really looking this
industry into its soul andfiguring out what my part was in
it and how my future was goingto go in it.
And you know, a couple of yearswent by and I got assigned to
(03:07):
fire prevention early on in mycareer, about four and a half
years into my career, and thatwas one of the best things that
could have ever happened to me,because what it forced me to do
is to get off the big red truckfor a little bit Ironically, it
was a big white truck in FortCollins at that time, was a big
(03:27):
white truck in Fort Collins atthat time and figure out how
public entities fit into thecommunity and what public
entities do for theircommunities and really how much
there is to be done in terms ofcivic engagement in this kind of
work.
And it really got me beyondthinking just about the 15
minutes of an emergency responsecall.
I really started falling inlove with public administration.
(03:48):
I love the fire service.
But then really there was thisthing new passion, right, new
fire in my belly and I ended upgetting a master's degree in
public administration as part ofthat, and then knew that I
wanted to make an impact on thenexus of what I just talked
about, that civic engagement.
How can we be a responsiblepartner with our communities?
(04:09):
How can we do more than justrespond?
And that's when the careerjourney started really was.
I knew that I wanted to be afire chief for a couple of
reasons.
I mentioned service before.
I wanted to be in a positionwhere I could be of service and
I view my role that way that I'mgiving back not just to the
(04:30):
community but also to thefirefighters that I work with.
And you know, now that I'm acity fire department chief, I
also try to be of service to theother departments.
You know, a fire department asan external service partner
tends to take a lot from theother departments and I want to
try to be mindful as much aspossible to give back in right.
Well, that led then to meleaving for Collins as a
(04:54):
battalion chief, going toBoulder for five years as a
deputy chief.
That was the first time Iworked for a city.
And then this opportunity cameup here in Prescott and it was
literally it couldn't have comeat a better time for so many
reasons, but it is where I feelthe most fulfilled I've had in
my entire career.
It's a connection with peopleand not just a fire department.
(05:16):
It's a connection with thecommunity, connection with the
other folks in the city.
It's just a great place to workand that's how I came to be a
fire chief.
There's, of course, a lot ofother folks in the city.
It's just a great place to workand that's how I came to be a
fire chief.
There's, of course, a lot ofother stuff in there.
Your previous guest, doug Kopp,and I started in the same fire
department and we actually wentto the National Fire Academy, to
the executive fire officerprogram, you know, at chief
(05:38):
school, as they call it, afterhe had already left for Collins,
and so it's really kind of coolthat you know, in a way, we we
bumped into the same person thatgot to meet you.
Carol Park (05:53):
It is so wild.
Yes, when he said I hadmentioned your name and he said
that y'all knew each other andhad gone to fire school, I was
like, wow, what a small world.
You know, yeah, you know youtalked about in there your value
of service, and I know you andI have talked about and
listeners of the podcast knowthat a lot of this stems from
Brene Brown's work aroundvulnerability, which I always
(06:16):
talk about uncertainty, risk,emotional exposure but in her
work she definitely talks aboutwhen we're going into that arena
of vulnerability, we have tohave our values in front of you.
So I hear very clearly that youare speaking to your value of
service, which is so much ofwhat you let, what led you into
(06:36):
this.
So yeah, so really too.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthat vulnerability.
So vulnerability, as you know,often gets a bad rap, especially
in high stress professions likefirefighting.
Can you speak to how you definevulnerability in the context of
your work as a fire chief?
Holger Durre (06:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would say.
I'll start that answer the wayI'm going to finish the answer,
which is you have to absolutelyknow yourself at a deeper level
and you know, vulnerability isscary, it's uncertain, it's like
you said, especially in aprofession like this, it can be
(07:21):
extremely intimidating.
But back to the value piece.
I think you brought up a reallygreat point there.
Right, I knew what attracted meto this profession service
others.
But the problem is for me, as Iwas going throughout my career,
I was using that almost as acrutch, and there to me is a
(07:41):
place where service becomesselfish because you're feeding
something inside of you that isreally just for you.
Now, service in and of itselfis, of course, very fulfilling
I'm not downplaying that butbasically I can tell you from my
experience I had taken it to alevel that was not healthy.
You know.
It was something that I was, inessence, now no longer doing
(08:03):
the act of service for the otherperson.
It was really just to fill mycup, and that is a problem and
the reason why I say that, interms of vulnerability, there's
a lot of journey.
I'm a recovering alcoholic andam a proud recovering alcoholic
(08:23):
because it made me face my ownvulnerability.
I had to.
For instance, what I justarticulated to you about my
relationship with service as avalue didn't come until I had to
do such deep work in recoverythat I would have not been
confronted with otherwise.
So for me, I say it's easy nowbecause I got hit upside the
(08:46):
head with a brick, basically myown doing right, and it was
life-saving, literally, you know, for me.
But it was also the place whereI could finally understand, you
know, because I'd read BreneBrown even before I went into
recovery and the principles andthe concept made so much more
sense to me once.
(09:08):
I had to get past that dividebecause, as I mentioned, I could
not escape from who I was, andprior to that it was a constant
escape.
Everything that I was doing inmy world, whether it was those
acts of service or drinking, itwas all about that escape from
having to confront who I reallyam, at my very core and in order
(09:32):
for me to admit not only that Ihad faults, which I always knew
, but also what do I do withthose faults.
That's what helped me Now to me, that's why vulnerability can
be a useful tool if you'refacing it for purpose.
I was able because there wasthis nexus of recovery and me
(09:55):
being so frustrated with my lifeand so many in my life being
frustrated with me that I had tokind of confront me on a whole
different level.
It wasn't transactional anymore.
I had to.
I had to transform where theconsequences were going to be
severe, and that caused me toreally understand that it's not
so scary after all.
(10:15):
That really the thing thatyou're pushing back against the
most because you're so afraiddoing the opposite and just kind
of leaning into it and lettingyourself fall just a little bit.
There is the safety net ofvulnerability right behind it,
and the reason why I use thatterm it sounds kind of weird,
(10:36):
right?
Oh, I love it Is because inthat safety net is where I could
safely live with vulnerability,not just try it out every once
in a while, not just use it, aswith vulnerability, not just try
it out every once in a while,not just use it as a slogan, not
just use it as a bumper sticker.
Right, and even in the interviewfor this job I mentioned right
away that I was in recovery.
If you had told me that even ayear before I said that, I would
(10:58):
have been mortified, absolutelymortified, you know, and it was
not vulnerability for effect,it was not vulnerability for
acceptance, it was notvulnerability to be somebody
that I wasn't Itets of recoveryis.
I have to be radically honestas much as I humanly can in my
(11:30):
life, and including with myself.
That means that I am having,just because of my personality,
I have to live very close tothat edge of, like I said, doing
things like what I justmentioned, saying, yeah, you
know, it wasn't that it was outof context, it was in the
context of the question I wasanswering at the time and I felt
like it was very important forme to make sure that they
(11:51):
understood that.
Because, again, you mentionedvalues.
I had a significant valueproblem before I had to go into
recovery and that vulnerabilityis what opened the door to all
the other values that now are sofundamental to making me a
happier person, a more fulfilledperson.
But here's the thing A personis now of service to others in a
(12:15):
healthy way.
I don't cross boundaries, Idon't do it for myself
completely.
I mean, here's the objecthonesty, right.
Do you ever do something that'scompletely selfless?
Well, you know, probably not.
But I like to make sure thatthat equation is 95% in the
other person's favor, and thatwas definitely something that
(12:38):
changed for me, andvulnerability was sort of the
passport that got me therepassport that got me there.
Carol Park (12:49):
You know, another one of Brene's sayings is owning
our story and ourselves throughthe process is the most
courageous thing we'll ever do,which, as you're alluding to,
takes so much vulnerability.
But I think, a lot of times toothat we think that owning our
story is owning it with all theother people.
But even as you've alluded toyour recovery process, it's like
(13:12):
I think, first and foremost, weown our story with ourselves,
which takes a lot of shame,resilience, you know, we come to
that place where we go oh, thispart of me that, oh, I'm seeing
and I don't want other peopleto see.
We own that first withourselves in a loving,
(13:33):
self-compassionate way, which Ihear what you're saying about,
the bumper stickers Sometimesthis language has become what I
call cliche Just say, oh,vulnerability, oh self, self
compassion and we know I meanvulnerability takes courage, it
is not weakness, it is courageand self compassion also very
(13:55):
cliche, but practicing selfkindness, knowing we're all
humans, we're all in thistogether, we all make mistakes,
we all fail, and then being veryclear, as you alluded to as
well, to our boundaries, whereother people begin and end and
where we begin and end, and notcrossing those as we do our work
.
So, gosh, thank you so much forsharing that.
(14:17):
I'm so again grateful for younow on so many levels, of you
just being able to own yourstory and share it.
So I the other thought in thatis knowing that in fire service,
you know as a firefighter,where mental toughness is often
(14:39):
emphasized, how do you encourageyour team to open up about
their struggles, whetherpersonal or professional,
without feeling weak, andperhaps something about the
boundaries in there too?
But you know, I see yourcourage and your strength and
vulnerability.
How does that kind of trickledown?
How does that work with you asa fire chief?
Holger Durre (15:00):
Well, first of all , I can always do better.
Right, and I don't say thatfacetiously, because I do feel
that being open and honest aboutmy own journey helps others own
theirs.
And I knew, coming into therole of being the fire chief,
that I had a significant amountof influence around how those
(15:24):
conversations are.
And I don't mean to be tooheady, but like almost at the
subconscious level of theorganization.
Right, I mean culture.
Like they say, when you look ata brick wall, culture is the
mortar between the bricks.
It's not the bricks, it's whereare those micro decisions made?
Right, when somebody decides toseek help or decides to be
(15:47):
vulnerable?
Right.
And you would think that in thefire service we live together.
Most fire departments now arestaffed in such a way that you
basically live at your job forhalf your life.
Yeah, it is very difficult toengage in that level of
vulnerability.
I knew that if I was willing totalk about it and, more than
(16:12):
anything, model it, that wouldhopefully start turning the tide
.
Now I have to say something herethat's extraordinarily
important.
I am the luckiest fire chief onthe face of this planet because
of my department.
I have firefighters that areemotionally intelligent.
(16:32):
They are dedicated to thecommunity in a way that I've not
experienced in my community.
That's not saying anything badabout the firefighters I worked
with before at all, but I reallygot lucky when I got to be here
and it happened to be that thatapproach of leadership, of
saying I'm going to live outfront and make it okay, of
(16:53):
saying I'm going to live outfront and make it okay, helped,
hopefully, some others.
Now I have had some experiencessince I've been here that folks
have relayed to me that becauseof my approach and because of
me sharing my history and mypast, it helped them take action
, come forward, even reach outto me and want to ask.
Right, I mean there's somequestions.
(17:14):
There's a lot of organizations.
I would never call the firechief to say, hey, I'm
struggling with this thing,right, and making it okay, even
when it's difficult.
Right, I mean I am in charge ofmaking sure our policies get
followed, our regulations getfollowed, and a lot of
vulnerability can be right atthe fringe level of that right.
(17:34):
I mean somebody doesn't want todisclose they may have screwed
something up, and there's a timeand a place for that right.
But at the end of the day, it'sthe human interaction and it's
the culture that you startslowly building through setting
up an environment where you'rewilling to be like that and and
(17:55):
and you know, I mean theliterature is filled with it,
right Owning your mistakesgenuinely, not just because you
want the problem to go away.
Being willing to accept otherseven if it's not convenient for
you, right, I mean that's.
It sounds kind of strange, butit's like.
You know, if I viewed myorganization in a transactional
(18:16):
way, I would be let down everyday.
I just choose not to see itthat way.
I have rock stars, and I'm notsaying rock stars because I
ignore the faults or the problemis quite the opposite.
I truly do have rock stars.
The thing that I'm talkingabout here is I'm trying as much
as possible not to bring myneeds and my biases which is
(18:39):
impossible, but I try, right,not to bring my biases into this
so that it hopefully sets atone of safety.
Yeah, Psychological safetysafety of being ourselves,
safety of making mistakes in theright way, owning those
mistakes, but, you know, beingwilling to fail forward, those
kind of things.
I mean now I'm using clichestoo, but um, but it, it really
(19:02):
is one of those things that, um,I got to be in this role.
I decided early on.
I get to experiment what itlooks like for me to be fire
chief.
I could have tried to copyother fire chiefs.
I would have failed miserably.
Um, I had to be me, and one ofthose things being me is what I
just talked about.
It's hopefully being a littlebit more approachable than some,
(19:23):
making sure that I accept myneeds in stride and my you know,
and have my ego in a placewhere I can hold myself
accountable so others don't haveto.
Now, I fail, I fail daily, I do, and it's.
(19:45):
But again, it's thatenvironment, that willingness,
right, yeah, that you startseeing things in the environment
.
There are opportunities forbuilding a more vulnerable
culture when you shift yourperspective to see it.
Yeah, and that is my job, right, I mean, there's informal
leaders, and if the fire chiefdoesn't believe in it and isn't
(20:09):
willing to do the work himselfor herself, then it can only go
so far, yeah.
Carol Park (20:16):
You know?
I am just curious did youbecause you said you have a team
of rock stars did you inheritthat or do you think that you
helped to build and grow that?
Holger Durre (20:29):
Our firefighters are an extension of an amazing
community.
Okay, that Our firefighters arean extension of an amazing
community, okay, they are ourdepartment in the state of
Arizona and they are aexpression of our community's
philosophy, our community'sculture.
A lot of them grew up here.
That's also fairly rare forAmerican fire departments
anymore.
You know, we've got folks thatare commuting 150 miles.
(20:50):
Right, our folks are connectedbecause it's their hometown and
there are generations offirefighting families here in
Prescott that go way back when.
You know, we were also thedepartment that had the Grand
Mountain Hotshot tragedy andthat, of course, impacted us at
a significant level.
(21:11):
But, more than anything, Isometimes say that being a fire
chief is like being a comedian.
It's about timing.
When I showed up, I got luckybecause my personality and where
I was at in my own journey andin my own life and my
characteristics matched upperfectly where the organization
was and hopefully still is, andit really started opening doors
(21:34):
.
Right, but it was there allalong, right, I, I, I've seen
organizations where you really,okay, we gotta, we gotta turn
the ship, we gotta, you know,confront toxic cultures and you
know, I, I, I'm fortunate Idon't have that.
Commix.io (21:52):
I don't have that need.
I don't have that problem.
Holger Durre (21:55):
Yeah, and, like I said, that's why I can't speak
more highly of our team, becausethey have their priorities
exactly where it should be, andit makes those conversations
around vulnerability easier.
Now, if there's firefighterslistening out there, we're still
firefighters.
We still do the stuff at thekitchen table that happens at
(22:20):
kitchen tables everywhere in theUnited States.
We still do all those things.
It's partially what makes thisprofession so awesome, but
there's just a different flavorthat you feel the first second
you walk through a fire stationdoor here in Prescott and that
was there long before I evershowed up.
Carol Park (22:39):
Wow, I mean it sounds like an amazing culture
and amazing team.
And yeah, just to hear to theimpact of the community that
it's a two way street.
I actually truly never thoughtof it that way.
So that the community reallyhas helped flavor the culture of
the fire department too.
(23:00):
That's kind of mind-boggling,but I get it, you know.
So thank you for sharing thattoo.
Holger Durre (23:06):
Yeah, it's that civic engagement, civic
connection I was talking about.
You know, I get to actuallylive it here it's yeah, that's
incredible.
Carol Park (23:14):
That's incredible.
So, yeah, I know we've touchedon a little bit, but with the
vulnerability and again, it's aprofession where you have to be
strong and so a lot of timesvulnerability is considered
weakness and again we keephighlighting it's actually
courage, it's just quite thecounter to weakness.
(23:36):
It takes so much courage tomove into that uncertainty, risk
, emotional exposure.
So, knowing that withfirefighting, PTSD, burnout,
stress, mental health issueswhich sometimes it can be hard
to be vulnerable and to open upand share that you may need help
(23:58):
because you're used to beingstrong and helping others, you
know.
So how does that work withinyour team or within the fire
department?
Holger Durre (24:07):
Well, let's talk about the fire service in
general, because this is oneaspect of our profession that
I'm really proud of, of the fireservice in general, because
this is one aspect of ourprofession that I'm really proud
of, not because I did anything,but because of where the fire
service is at now and where it'sheading.
We're doing a far better jobthan we used to with mental
health support.
We're doing a far better jobwith being more in touch with
(24:28):
the true grind of thisprofession.
Yeah, we run difficult calls.
There's no doubt about it.
But what I think a lot of folks, especially outside the fire
service, sometimes oftenoverlook is the daily grind.
American fire departments,exclusively, are busier than
they've ever been before.
We're all hazards responders,which means not only is it more
(24:51):
calls that are more complex, butwe also have no more.
We have to be responsible formore things.
And the other piece is we arealso a sort of a safety net
right for the communities, andthat means we run a lot of lower
acuity calls that are veryimportant.
You know these people need help, but they're not necessarily
(25:14):
the lights and sirens responses,and there are plenty of places
included here where we do a lotof that low acuity work that can
lead to compassion fatigue,that can lead to not being able
to absorb the other biggershocks that you know that
naturally come in thisprofession and we just weren't
(25:37):
doing a good enough job for, youknow, maybe the last I would
say five to 10 years I startedreally seeing it in the fire
service.
Our tragedy kind of fastforwarded it here.
But, for instance, one of thethings that is now commonplace
with American fire departmentsis to have a contract with a
culturally competent clinicalprovider, not just one person,
(25:58):
but usually a set of providersthat is able to provide
confidential, effective care,not just when firefighters are
in crisis, it's also when we arejust OK, you know, checking the
oil in the car.
It's also when we are just OK,you know, checking the oil in
the car.
And those are things that I'vereally seen change over the last
(26:20):
, like I said, five years.
That is super encouraging to me.
Now, in terms of what happenswhen you see a firefighter
struggle right, what happenswhen we face somebody in crisis.
Well, for me, getting back topersonal sides of things, I went
(26:43):
through that.
You know, I lived basically themajority of my career in not
knowing at the time in aconstant cycle of dealing with
those stresses, the PTSD, youknow, the fatigue, sleep
deprivation and all of thosethings.
But I just thought it was partof the background noise of what
was going on.
And over that time I departedfrom so many things, the joys in
(27:09):
my life, values that I reallyheld dear, that it just became
easier just to cope in differentways.
And because it was so gradualand over time, right, I didn't
really realize what washappening until it had really
gotten pretty severe.
And so the nice thing about nowI say nice I have the ability,
(27:35):
when somebody else is facingsomething similar, not only to
understand what they're goingthrough but also to have,
hopefully, next level solutions.
Now for us.
You know, if the fire chiefdoesn't show up and gets you
into treatment, that's not howthis works.
You know you got to haveconfidentiality.
I mean, of course, if theyasked me to be there I would.
But this is where our peersupport comes in.
(27:57):
Most American fire service havepeer support members.
The IFF has a center forexcellence in Maryland they're
actually building one, I think,on the West coast as well for
first responder recovery.
There's plenty of recoverycenters and when I say the word
recovery, right, most peoplethink, oh, that must be about
substance abuse.
(28:17):
Okay, yeah, there's part ofthat, right.
But I can tell you, at least inmy experience.
First of all, almost mostpeople, but definitely most
first responders, don't go intorecovery or treatment because of
a substance alone.
It is usually because they haveother co-occurring issues that
(28:41):
likely were there before theywent into the profession.
That environment that I justtalked about just begins to
exacerbate, and that wasdefinitely the case in my
situation.
Yeah, I've seen some stuff inmy career.
I can tell you that that wasnot what got me to saying I'm
done, I need to fix some stuff.
You know, I had that set ofluggage long before I even filed
(29:04):
my first application to be afirefighter.
And so for me now, like I said,that's why I feel like I'm
lucky, because I can at leastrelate, I can guide that
conversation from my currentrole without giving up my role
at the same time you know thatcould be a slippery slope, sure,
(29:26):
but also, at the same time,when I see opportunities for us
to partner with clinicallycompetent providers, this
opportunity to talk to you, thenhopefully that helps others
know that it's okay, you know,and we have to find a way, and
(29:48):
it's of course in society too.
But we have to figure out a wayto get over this part of this
profession to where we can getto a stage of being more able to
absorb those stresses.
Those stresses are always goingto be there.
We can do all kinds of thingsright, like I could, on my
whiteboard, draw all kinds ofprograms and strategies and and
(30:10):
and and.
You know, oh, let's lower,lower QD calls, and at the end
of the day there's human.
Oh, let's lower low acuitycalls, and at the end of the day
there's human beings that geton those fire trucks every day.
Those human beings have hearts,they have the feelings, they
care deeply.
That's why they're there tobegin with, and they get hit by
that compassion, fatigue andthose moral injuries constantly.
You know, and the more I thinkwe can bring that to the surface
(30:34):
in a healthy way it's basically, I guess I would say,
vulnerability at the professionlevel, not just at the
individual level the betterit'll be.
And, like I said, I'm so happyto see that the fire service is
on this journey and that they'rewalking that way.
There's still lots of work tobe done but again, culturally,
you will now see a conferenceslate of classes and it's almost
(30:56):
impossible these days to take afire service conference, you
know in aggregate, and not seeat least one or two pieces of
that conference talking aboutmental health, resiliency,
physical illness.
That's 15 years ago, thatwasn't the case.
Carol Park (31:11):
Yeah, I believe that and I think it's leaders like
yourself, like Fire Chief DougKupp, you know, willing to share
stories, be vulnerable in theleadership and then the trickle
down so that again thatpsychological safety that you
talked about, so people can feelsafe to open up, have trust, to
(31:34):
share when they have a need.
I think I hear the change and Iknow that you're part of the
change.
So amazing and thank you.
Yeah, so kind of, maybe just inclosing here any words of
advice that you'd give to youngincoming firefighters or just to
(31:59):
the profession in general.
Holger Durre (32:01):
Sure, I'd say three things.
First of all, never let theprofession define who you are.
A lot of this advice comes fromme personally.
You know, when I first got intothis role it's very common in a
public safety profession or anykind of profession, I think
where there's a uniform involved.
You know you end up almostsubconsciously becoming a
(32:24):
firefighter by identity.
You know, I was for a long timea firefighter first, and
everything else second.
But you know, first you are you.
That's number one.
You can't run away fromyourself.
It's impossible.
You are a son, a daughter, ahusband, a wife, a father, a
mother.
You're a friend.
(32:46):
You might be an athlete, youmight be, you know, a musician.
Those pieces of your identityare, as if not more important
than this profession.
This profession is one of thoseprofessions where it does
consume everything.
You don't find accountants atget togethers talking about
their profession the way thatfirefighters talk about it their
(33:08):
get togethers.
I've not yet seen an accountantthat wears a t-shirt that
resembles anything about theirprofession while they're off
duty.
You know it's locked into ouridentity everywhere.
Don't let that siren run youover the rocks is basically what
I'm saying.
There is make sure you've gotwho you are figured out, solid
(33:30):
and that you've got an identitywell beyond that.
The second thing is we'reextraordinarily fortunate.
This is one of the professionsthat gets to see not only
amazing human suffering but alsoamazing human triumph and
(33:52):
resilience and grit, not just inthe calls that we run but, you
know, even in each other.
You know, I've seen bravery notin the way that most people
think about bravery, but in thatvulnerability sense in this
profession from my coworkersover and over and over again.
And that is such a fortunatething, especially for a newer
(34:15):
firefighter.
Coming into this industry is,even when it gets frustrating,
you feel burned out.
Never forget how incrediblethis profession is.
We are so fortunate that we getto do this work and that
gratitude that comes from thatis what's gonna get you through
a lot of rough spots.
The last thing I would say andthis is you know, I think, where
(34:39):
the fire service needs to headnext is we're still a fire
department that, by and large,runs on 24-hour shifts or
different versions of 24-hourshifts.
The average work week for anAmerican firefighter is 56 hours
.
It's 2,912 hours a year.
So if you do the math, that's athird of your life.
So over the course of yourcareer, if you worked no
(35:00):
overtime, attended no committeemeetings or anything else a
third of your life, you'reliving in something that's not
your house house.
Now, the reality is is thatstaffing is difficult, the
workload is, you know, high, andso there's a lot of overtime
(35:21):
and forced overtime.
And then that identity issue.
You know this is a job that iswith you when you're at work and
away from work.
We need to figure out a way asan industry to get us away from
a 56 hour work week.
Now notice, I didn't say awayfrom a 24 hour shift, because I
think, culturally, there aresome things there that are
(35:41):
really beneficial and valuable.
Um, but we have to figure out away to get our firefighters in
an environment where they're notjust absolutely baseline
exhausted just by the base workschedule.
You know, pilots have figuredit out, over-the-road truckers
have figured it out, medicalresidents have figured it out.
You know, and we have to, Ithink, now come to the table and
(36:02):
do the same thing, and I thinkthe solution there is community
relevance.
It's how do we build again backto that civic connection, right
?
What's the role of this firedepartment in this community?
If we're not relevant to thecommunity, then we don't exist.
And I think the solution to whatI'm talking about is not just
(36:23):
in saying, oh great, let's get aforced shift on, or, you know,
let's do this.
That is, yeah, part of thesolution, but I think what we
have to do is we have to figureout what the identity looks like
for the fire service over thenext 25, 50, 75 years, and that
is going to be the work of thosethat come after the current
generation.
That's here I mean, yeah, ouryounger firefighters.
(36:45):
They're going to be fire chiefs, uh, towards the end of their
career.
I, I hope that that is theconversations that they have.
I'm starting those.
We're actually having aconversation here about shift
schedules.
Now, you know, and, like I said,shift schedules is just one
tiny little piece of this.
It's really figuring out abetter way for us to live,
(37:05):
because when the fire servicestarted, right before the Fair
Labor Standards Act came in the70s, there were two shifts in
American fire departments, andwhen FLSA and the 207k
exemptions came, that's when thethird shift started.
Well, now, washington, oregon,florida, there's a lot of
departments that are going to afourth shift.
Well, again, like I said, great, it's moving towards the right
(37:27):
thing, but still right, you'restill running those low QD calls
that we're talking about.
You're still in thatenvironment that you're talking
about and so, like I said, thethird thing I would say is to
those firefighters coming afterme help us fix that.
You know we'll be there to helpyou, obviously, as much as I can
help.
I've got another good 12 to 15years left in my career and I'll
do whatever I can to make surethat I'm part of that solution.
(37:49):
But I really throw thatchallenge to that generation,
knowing that they'reunbelievably capable, because we
have firefighters now that areso much more well-balanced than
we were when my generation camein, which was we took every
overtime that we could.
Now our firefighters come inwith their head set on right
going hey, I need to be with myfamily, I don't want to be at
(38:10):
work all the time.
Exactly, thank you, you know.
And so really, you know thechallenge is not fully passed on
to the next generation yet, butI'm hoping they take us up on
the invitation to fix it with us.
Carol Park (38:24):
I do too, and I hear your leadership in it, your
forward thinking, your passingthe torch so that it can be for
future generations offirefighters a better
environment, if you will.
So again, I'm just so gratefulthat you came on the podcast
(38:45):
today.
So so much wisdom, so manywords of wisdom, and again,
thank you for your own personalvulnerability, but also just the
culture that you're creatingand building.
It's amazing.
So again, thank you, ChiefHolger Dura, for being on our
podcast today.
Holger Durre (39:04):
Well, thank you, I really appreciate the
opportunity.
Commix.io (39:07):
Thanks for tuning in to the Courage Unmasked podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a review.
It really helps us grow.
Follow us on social media forupdates and a look at what's
coming next, and a big thank youto our sponsor, comixio, for
supporting this journey.
Until next time, keep leadingwith courage.
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