December 15, 2024 • 40 mins
What drives a person to risk their life for others? Fire Chief Doug Cupp shares his extraordinary journey, shaped by a profound commitment to service and a pivotal life-saving moment. This episode unravels the essence of vulnerability and leadership through Doug’s experiences, mentorship, and dedication to his team. Discover how one rescue operation ignited a career built on courage, trust, and self-reflection.
With nearly three decades in firefighting, Doug offers a unique perspective on leadership growth and the power of self-compassion. We delve into the challenges of transitioning into leadership roles, the art of patience, and learning from mistakes. Inspired by Brene Brown’s insights on vulnerability, Doug explores the unpredictable nature of real-life situations and how fostering a growth mindset can lead to personal and professional transformation.
Explore the transformative power of psychological safety and trust in high-pressure environments. This episode emphasizes the importance of creating a culture where failure is seen as a stepping stone to success, not a setback. By honoring the fire service and exploring diverse experiences, we highlight the traits that define effective leaders. Join us for a heartfelt conversation about serving communities, embracing vulnerability, and shaping a more resilient future for those who courageously serve.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carol Park (00:03):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Courage
Unmasked podcast again, wherewe're shining the light on
vulnerability and the courage ofvulnerability.
And I'm really excited today tointroduce to you our guest,
doug Cupp, who is a fire chiefand certainly understands
(00:24):
vulnerability.
He's also had lots ofexperience in leadership and so
he's going to also share with usvulnerability and leadership.
So, again, super excited tohave you here today, doug, so
thank you for being our guest.
Doug Cupp (00:41):
Well, thank you.
I appreciate the time anddefinitely dedication to
learning about vulnerability.
Carol Park (00:48):
Well, we're excited to have you, so tell us a little
bit about how you chose yourprofession and how you became a
fire chief.
Doug Cupp (00:58):
Yeah, you know, I think my story might be similar
to a lot where I feel like I didnot choose the profession, but
maybe the profession chose me.
And you know we come up with alot of plans in life and other
things happen.
So the son of a veterinarian,you know I think he always
(01:21):
wanted us to kind of ventureinto that world and we as the
kids we kind of did.
But you know mine took more of.
The one piece that I rememberthe most about my dad was that
you know he did a lot ofemergencies, you know animals in
crisis, you know something gothit by a car or was really sick
(01:42):
and he would drop whatever hewas doing and, you know, go to
help a family that had waslosing a pet or you know a loved
one like that.
And I remember the, the servicethat he he always provided to
his customers and the great workthat he felt.
And so I I wasn't reallyinterested in the veterinary
(02:05):
medicine so much, but I spent alittle bit of time, you know,
getting my, you know justputting my toes in the water a
little bit, and in emergencyservices and I started working
on a beach for a fire departmentin Nags Head, north Carolina,
and so we worked for the firedepartment but we were kind of
(02:26):
just doing ocean rescue and sowe just kind of ran one division
of it which was just all theocean rescue type stuff and EMS
that happens on the beach.
And you know, it was just agreat summer job while I was
going to school and I didn'treally have anything particular
of doing that for a living, buta couple of seasons of that I
(02:46):
really loved being able to be apart of a great team and we came
from all different walks oflife.
We had people that wereex-military, we had people that
were in the fire service and didthis as another part of the job
and just through all thoseconversations they just get you
really, you know, fired up andand a sense of belonging.
(03:07):
This is, these are your people.
They understand you, they're infor the same reasons.
You know they're all hilarious,they're all really fun people
and they take the work seriousand so.
But we had a pretty criticalcall one day and I found myself
in a section of beach where Iwas completely alone, and we're
(03:28):
usually paired up in a couple ofteams, but I got there real
early in the morning and noticedthat there was a family in
great distress and they did notspeak English, they were of
foreign descent and I'm tryingto make myself very aware to
them that I'm here and Icouldn't tell what was going on.
They could not communicate tome, I could not understand the
(03:50):
stress that they were having.
I'm looking in the water, I'mtrying to find out what's going
on.
I don't see anything that'sbringing attention.
Maybe it's just a family fight,a family disagreement going on,
but it started to really stressme out and I remember, you know
, just kept looking at thehorizon, looking for anything of
why they may be in so muchdistress.
(04:11):
Uh, and I saw it and there wasa body in the water and, uh,
look pretty lifeless.
And so, not to draw a longstory, but it ended up having a
positive outcome to where it wasa very long swim, a very long
(04:32):
rescue, and did it, you know,pretty much solo, with a few
bystanders that helped and justdirected them and, yeah, it had
a positive outcome.
You know she was lifeless,pulseless, you know, not
breathing, and we brought herback to where she spent some
time in the hospital, but just acouple of days she left the
hospital, walked out and had noissues long-term issues from
what had happened.
(04:53):
And that moment, right there, Ithought, if that only happens
one more time in my career, mycareer is worth it.
But one of the things I reallyremember about it was that I
don't really think about thetraining.
I don't remember thinking abouthow to do CPR.
I didn't think about how to dothe rescue, it just did it.
And so I pay so much respect tothe people that trained me and
(05:17):
had a devotion to trainingpeople like me to where we
didn't think we were onautopilot and all those
stressors that we had is, am Igoing to remember what to do?
Am I going to remember how todo it?
Um, you just did it and youknow you fought through the
exhaustion, you fought througheverything and it was amazing.
And so at that point I said Idon't know what my plan was.
(05:39):
But now I have a plan and andso I moved out West to start
working into the wildfire area.
I really enjoyed the wildernessaspect and wildfires and and
pretty quickly got a job workingin Fort Collins for Poudre Fire
Authority, where Holger Durr,who was on your show, but I
(06:01):
worked together in that, in thatworld and you know what a great
fire department and you know,uh, worked together in that, in
that world and, uh, you knowwhat a great fire department and
you know it happened reallyquickly to be able to get a job
and be able to move through theranks.
I had incredible mentors, uh,that pushed me to.
You know, push myself, get an?
Uh, go to school, get amaster's degree, go through
leadership trainings and coursesand and just really improve my
(06:25):
craft and my ability, but alsopass it on to the up and comers
and pass along what I'm learningonto them, just as my mentors
did for me.
And so I never really thought Iwanted to be a fire chief.
It was just something that youknow.
It didn't have the glory, itjust had the stress and the
politics.
It just did not look likeanything I really wanted to do.
(06:47):
But you know things, thingschange in your career and you
start to get a calling whereothers you know consulting firms
and people are talking.
And I think the first time thatI became at that level of a
division chief was working up inthe mountains and really
(07:08):
enjoyed that particular area.
And it was a training chief jobwhere I loved training.
I loved being able to keeppeople safe through training and
educate them and let them learnfrom my mistakes that I had
made so hopefully they wouldn'tmake the same mistakes I did,
(07:35):
and I really loved it and itjust kept fostering that passion
I had of mentoring others,showing people how to be
successful in their careers andall those pieces.
And so I was jumping back andforth doing some wildfire
management for the County.
I was, uh, I did an interimchief job for a really small
volunteer fire department thatallowed me, like tiptoe into
being a fire chief with you knowjust kind of part-time position
(07:56):
that they had, um, and Ithought, man, I'm really
enjoying this.
I really love giving back tothe community.
I love that challenge.
That truly it is.
Every day is a challenge as afire chief.
But it didn't take too longbefore, you know, things were
going really well and I thoughtI was just pretty happy.
And another consulting firm atDalton said your name comes up a
(08:18):
lot in this area, aboutthinking about being a fire
chief over an eagle, and I said,oh, that's interesting.
I've never really had ainterest in being a fire chief.
It just kind of happened and wetalked for a while.
And then they asked me if Iwould apply and I said, well,
I'm not.
I'm not sure I'm cut out for it, but I'll I'll think about it.
(08:40):
And I remember he called likethe day before the applications
everything we're doing goes.
I thought we talked about this.
I thought you were going toapply.
Have not seen your application.
I said I'm still thinking aboutit because it's due today.
And I said, well, it's allready.
I just really want to make surethat I'm the right fit for that
organization and that I'mprepared to take on those
(09:01):
challenges and I don't want tolet anyone down.
And he said, well, that's upfor us to decide.
If you're ready and you're thegood fit, so just apply and then
we will determine whetheryou're a good fit.
That gave me comfort to knowthat I don't have to be the best
, I have to be the right fit.
And that's what I wanted.
(09:23):
And so they ended up giving methe job.
They took back several uh, topcandidates and went through a
process and I was able to bemyself.
I had no worries.
I was going to be myself andwhat type of leader I was going
to be.
And if it worked out, great.
And if I didn't, I knew it justwasn't a good fit and none of
us would be happy.
Uh, but they did go with me andso I've been there eight years
now and very happy with it.
(09:45):
I'm glad I put down my fears ofwhat I thought being a fire
chief would be.
I thought you know, stand up tothe challenges.
I know how, I've known how todo that, so you know work
through that again and it's beena great eight years.
It really has been Wow and it'sbeen a great eight years.
Carol Park (10:05):
It really has been.
Wow.
Your story of even how you gotinto the profession pretty
amazing.
And then the call that youstarted to feel and hear along
the way really amazing.
And two things that stood outto me as you were talking teams,
you mentioned very early onthat you were a part of a team,
(10:27):
you felt like you belonged, andyour natural leadership, which
apparently continued to justfrom that first crisis moment on
the beach where you did lead,you were looking and you led and
the positive outcome.
But then that leadership thatjust keeps showing up.
(10:49):
So, as you were rising throughthe ranks and people were
noticing and identifying you asa leader and asking you to come
and apply as the leader, isthere a certain like, maybe
lesson that stands out to youabout leadership along the way?
Doug Cupp (11:09):
Oh, I think there's so many lessons.
Uh, you know, leadership issuch a journey, you know it's.
You think it's like an endstate, but it's, it's not.
It's a journey and everyone'staking their path to it.
And and I I certainly had youknow those hard knocks and some,
some very weird mindsets.
You know, when you I'm comingon 30 years now in the fire
(11:30):
service and that alone scares me, holy cow, that is a lot, um.
But you know, you, you try toreflect back on some of those
lessons and you know some of thethings that I did not have a
good mindset at certain timeswhere you're you're wanting to
step up into roles that you'renot actually ready for, you just
wouldn't.
(11:50):
You wanted the challenge, youwanted to grow, you wanted these
things, but maybe you just youweren't ready yet, you didn't
have the tools, you didn't havethe right mentoring yet, and, um
, the time would come and go andshe felt like like, oh, I'm
kind of a failure, I didn't dowell in that promotion, I'm not
ready, and but there's a reasonfor that.
(12:11):
And so you're also learningpatience.
You're also learning, um, whenyou don't have all the right
tools yet, um, but it alsoallows you to know what I need
to achieve, to be ready, to beready to serve in a different
capacity.
When you start to becomeleaders of leaders, it's a big
(12:32):
jump in your career.
You know leading, you know anengine company or a truck
company is one thing.
I mean, they're all.
They're all great leaders.
But when you are nowsupervising supervisors of other
supervisors and you're justtrying to not tell them how to
do it, but like how to lead inthat chaotic environment and so
(12:56):
sometimes those hard knocks aregreat and you take those with um
as a great opportunity to learnto say why, why was I in a rush
?
Or why didn't I say no, uh tothose?
Uh, why did I say yes, uh, tosome of the others?
And you know how would I dothat again?
Um, you know, andself-reflection is such, a, such
(13:17):
a huge piece of leadership ofmaking sure you go back and look
at how did I get here and arethere better ways?
Am I happy with you, know thatjourney, what do I need to
change to make sure that thenext journey is even better?
Carol Park (13:33):
So, I hear the self-awareness or the
self-reflection that's in there.
You've mentioned mentoringalong the way, patience, which I
think it's patience withyourself, right, where it's like
being able to find some of thatself-compassion with the hard
(13:53):
knocks.
Brown's work, again, where shesays when we go into the arena,
meaning the arena ofvulnerability, uncertainty, risk
, emotional exposure, you'regoing to have failures.
We're humans, right, and so howdo we take the hard knocks, be
(14:14):
able to use those to becomebetter leaders, to teach others?
So is there any particularalong the way, in the
vulnerability, hard knocks thatstand out where you really
learned and grew and others thengrew under you?
Doug Cupp (14:36):
yeah, like I said, there's when you've been in for
30 years or so.
Carol Park (14:39):
There's so many to choose from which one do I pick?
Doug Cupp (14:42):
yeah yeah, which hard knock, which which time did
they get knocked down to uh, tolearn from?
But, uh, and I will say, whenyou brought up the arena, um,
you know we, we have you knowthe, the poster of Roosevelt,
that Brene Brown talks about theman in the arena, and so you
(15:04):
know some of those that that Ithink I had so much um
opportunity because the mentorsI had that you know, would pick
you back up.
Um, you fall down, you make amistake and you know that set
for me the type of leader that Iwanted to be, and whether we
(15:26):
went to a fire, and it'd be thefirst one that I'd have as an
officer, as a captain, and it'sthe first one where you're first
in, you're making all thosecritical decisions, the go, no
go choice.
How are we going to search?
It's two o'clock in the morningand there's just so much to
(15:49):
read within seconds and come upwith a plan and communicate it,
and so you're not going to do it.
Well, but you think all thattraining it's going to go
flawlessly, because in trainingit did, because it's such a safe
environment, and you know whenyou're going to get into the
environment, when you go backand look at the tapes of, uh,
the recordings, and you justthink, why did I say that on the
radio?
(16:09):
Uh, like, oh, my God, you know.
And you, just you beat yourselfup, um, and you go, you went
through the promotional exam,you got the position, and then
then now it's real, now it'sreal life, and so you realize
that you're going to makemistakes, not everything is
going to go as planned, andyou're going to have to be
flexible and be resilient to beable to catch up to this
(16:33):
unfolding incident that'shappening, and people are
waiting for you to be able togive orders and to have this
coordinated effect for all thoseteam members all having the big
plan in place of what to do andeveryone's task and tactic is
important because how they haveto line up, and so there's a lot
(16:53):
of pressure on that and you'renot going to nail it for sure,
and I have not been on one thatI ever felt like I nailed, and
so I used to be able to focus on, or I wouldn't say used to I.
I think I, my mindset wouldalways be how do I do it better?
How do I do it better?
Don't do this again, don't dothat again.
Make sure you do this.
(17:15):
You missed this on that call andthe journey really shifted when
I started learning about.
You know, how do I manage that?
How do I manage the fact thatI'm not going to get it right,
um, that I'm not going to beperfect?
How do I manage the learningthat happens after that, not
just the technical piece.
Say this in the radio.
Don't say this make sure Iorder this Um, cause I'm still
(17:38):
going gonna fumble with thatCause every instance different
Um.
But how do I create a bettermindset of thinking um processes
and you know that really, Ithink, helped me.
One, the psychological safetywe talk about is that you know,
stop beating yourself up so muchabout this, that, uh, you know
(17:58):
you're, you're so hypercriticalthat you're your worst enemy in
this.
Uh, everyone else is providingyou great feedback, but they're
not anywhere as hurtful as youare to yourself.
And I had to learn that, uh,quite a bit, because I was like,
oh they're, they're going topick on me and they're going to
tell me that I did it wrong.
No it was me telling myself astory that that's what they were
(18:21):
doing.
Carol Park (18:22):
Yeah, that inner critic yeah.
Doug Cupp (18:25):
Yeah, they.
You know people wanted you todo better.
You know they'd bring it up,but it was a completely
professional way.
Commix.io (18:31):
Yeah.
Doug Cupp (18:32):
I shouldn't have feared that at all.
I was creating a fear in myhead and I see it all the time
in our officers that there's alot of pressure on that to do it
right.
Carol Park (18:44):
Everyone's watching, yeah so it sounds like as you
were learning that lesson foryourself.
Part of probablyself-compassion in there, versus
just that inner critic thatfears judgment but you're
judging yourself so harshly sothe self-compassion that comes.
Critic that fears judgment, butyou're judging yourself so
harshly so the self-compassionthat comes with that.
(19:04):
So as you learned that, thenI'm sure in leadership that
trickles down.
So does that?
How do you then convey that Ithink we learn first and then we
can teach it.
Convey that I think we learnfirst and then we can teach it
Right.
So how did you learn that andthen convey?
Doug Cupp (19:26):
that to those that you are leading?
Yes, and I think that reallylined up with my.
You know, my my biggest passionright now is really in training
and education, and you know,passing that on and that's
that's the.
I think the most importantpiece to pass on is you know,
how do you manage that piece ofit, of the learning that comes
from messing up from a failure,from those, and how to be able
(19:50):
to handle it.
It's not time to beat yourselfup, and so I do.
I do a ton of work with thenational fire Academy, as well
as um, the national wildlandcourting group, and teaching and
a lot of different.
You know, contract work to beable to, to show people how to
learn, versus don't just go inand beat yourself up and think
(20:14):
that that's going to changeanything.
Is that that's not really agreat way to be able to to learn
?
Is that that self-reflection isimportant?
However, you know we're tryingto teach a mindset, we're trying
to teach growth.
Uh, not well, you did it wrong,do it better.
Well, that doesn't go very far.
And so, when we go through anddo fire scenarios, it's really
(20:38):
important that we set a cultureof learning, because you're
giving them fire problems thatare extremely difficult, that
they're not going to just nail.
There's going to be piecesthey're going to miss.
And so, when we go in and weteach these courses that I
really love so much, is thatwe're really looking at the
(20:58):
growth?
Is that allow them to workthrough their fears, step up,
take a chance.
They're going to get it wrongand it's okay.
Is that we're going to?
We're going to take away allthe positive things that went
really well.
We're going to do those againand when, each time that we do a
scenario, we're going to addfour more things that we do well
, for more things we do well andjust continue that process,
(21:21):
versus harping on everythingthey did wrong.
It's these four things weregreat.
We're going to add these otherthree things.
We're going to do it untilthey're flawless.
They're they're that thatpositivity of like how to grow
versus what not to do, I thinkis something we have to develop
in how we train people.
Not you can't just tell it tothem and they get it, you have
(21:41):
to show it to is something wehave to develop in how we train
people.
Not you can't just tell it tothem and they get it.
You have to show it to them andyou have to show them an
environment of learning.
When you're in these courseswhere it's comfortable for them
in a very uncomfortable world,that they can try and fail and
it's going to be okay becauseit's training and they're going
to do it again.
They're going to be better eachtime that they do it.
Carol Park (22:02):
Yeah, I was thinking that you, you touched on the
psychological safety which partof that is permission to fail,
especially in training, asyou're saying.
So it's permission to fail sothat you can learn, do it better
, so that as you started yourstory there on the beach, the
crisis, you said it's like youweren't thinking wait, how do I
(22:25):
do CPR and wait how do I?
You know, it's just, it came toyou because of the training and
so permission to fail intraining, so that which, again,
even in real life it's.
You also said nobody's evergoing to get it perfect, but
developing that trust within ateam so that you can work
(22:48):
together as a team, how do youempower your team members and
what role does trust play inthat?
Doug Cupp (22:57):
Oh, that's huge.
I mean, everything comes downto the, the trust.
And since we're kind of talkingabout the psychological safety
aspect of that, um, it goes sofar that you know the, the trust
that they have, not only in theinstructor who would be
teaching them.
You know these skills, uh, toknow that you're not just
setting up something to watchthem fail and to point out that
(23:19):
you're smarter than them.
So a lot of the training isreally important.
But when we do whether it'straining or we're just doing an
after action review of how acall went, is that, you know we
break that into all of thosepieces of.
You know the engineer did theother right pump calculations
that they were able to feel tomake a good decision without
(23:43):
asking for permission.
If you know it may not be theexact way, but if they saw
something and then they trustthat, their officer, you know,
says, yeah, that's your job, doit.
And everyone has, you know, hasthe big picture.
That's that big piece where wecan be really a cohesive unit.
Everyone knows that we need torescue the people and we need to
(24:05):
put the fire out and all ofthose pieces and everyone within
that has that freedom to beable to work to their best
efficiencies, the best decisions, as long as it fits that plan
and they're communicated.
I don't care how we really gotthere, as long as we're
communicating that we're gettingthere together.
(24:26):
So if there is some type ofobstacle or issue, that they're
allowed to be able to voice thatand say that I'm going to have
to do this because this happened, versus an officer who would
say, well, wait, let me see howthis is going down, let me fix
(24:47):
this, like no, you have to beable to trust the training of
each one of those individualsthe firefighter, the engineer,
the officer, the battalion chief, the incident commander,
whoever that is is that you haveto be able to trust that
they're making decisions thatfit this big plan.
They're trained to do that, solet them use their training to
be able, you know, and thatpsychological safety is really,
(25:11):
really important, and I remember, you know, a story that really
resonated with me was in theculture code that you know,
talked about a Navy SEAL officer, and when they would train, his
words would resonate of thethings they always believed in,
which were let's see if you canpunch holes in this plan.
(25:31):
Does anyone have any great ideasand would encourage people to
speak up, because we knew thatnot everyone's going to feel
that safety to be able to say,hey, did you see that piece of
the roof over there is gettingready to go in.
They may not be, oh, surelysomeone else sees it.
And I'm a rookie.
(25:51):
I'm a rookie, I should just befocused on what I'm doing.
But do they have that trust thatthey can say something and
they're not going to be toldshut up, you don't know anything
, or just sit down and I'll tellyou what you're thinking, and
some of the old adages we'vealways heard in the fire service
.
But can they speak up and arethey encouraged?
(26:12):
That's what we have to do asleaders is not just expect that
they will do that, not justexpect that they will do that.
We actually have to encourageit by opening up that
conversation, that when we'reall stressed about a situation
we haven't been in so youwouldn't have any great ideas
does anyone, you know, have a abetter plan than this one?
Does anyone see a problem withthe plan that I came up with?
(26:32):
I want to know now, because wehave to start moving in a
direction moving in a direction.
Carol Park (26:44):
Yeah, I hear you empowering them really from the
time that they start theirtraining.
Not, oh, once you've had thismany years now you can speak up
like you're asking for it fromthe get-go.
It's like raise your hand.
We want to hear we were workingas a team with that.
Doug Cupp (26:59):
Yeah, it was amazing in the fire services that you
know we all come from thesecrazy backgrounds.
You know I was able to useworking for my father as a
veterinarian on weekends when hedidn't have staffing because we
had a large animal rescue teamthat you know, if an animal got
caught in a, you know, in sometype of fencing or machinery, I
(27:22):
got to use.
Growing up as a veterinarian,we had another individual that
had spent, I think, eight yearsas a Navy SEAL.
Of course we're going to allowhim to be on the swift water
rescue team and you know.
And then there are people thathad, you know, grown up and
worked on a farm for years andyears and just their knowledge
(27:44):
of you know machinery and justso you know, everyone comes with
that.
And if you encourage it, likeyeah, you know my previous job,
this is how we did it, like itdoesn't have to be the fire
service way.
It can be something that youlearned, you know, from some
other occupation.
Whatever your background is, weall come from different worlds
(28:05):
and encouraging that, you know,has to happen for better success
for the team.
Carol Park (28:11):
Yeah, that, those life experiences that
individuals bring in.
I was thinking even when youstarted with you know your dad
was a veterinarian and thosecrisis moments of maybe
someone's animal perhaps got hitby a cart, it's like even early
on for you, crisis was kind ofa part of your growing up that
(28:34):
you kind of became familiar andso it wasn't so scary.
Perhaps I mean not, it canstill be scary, I get it but
yeah, it was kind of part ofyour growing up and so you bring
that into the teamwork too.
Is there like if you thought ofgood leaders, bad leaders which
I hate to be so black and white, because nobody's either a good
(28:57):
leader or a bad leader but ifyou thought of traits of leaders
, that would be a good leadertrait versus bad leader traits?
What might you?
What do you think?
Doug Cupp (29:11):
You know the mentors that I had, that I truly, truly
believed that they were justsome of the best leaders that I
you know, and just having themin person was just amazing,
because you read about greatleaders in books.
There's not a shortage ofleadership books on the market
that talk about great leadersand I was fortunate to have them
(29:33):
write in person and some of thethings that I saw that they did
that I hear all the time thatpeople say these things, but
then it's really hard toactually do it.
This one individual that Iworked for he was a captain on
the truck and I worked for him.
He became a fire chief in theneighboring district, chief
Mirowski, and just a great,great man and a great leader.
(29:58):
But he showed humility ofteneven though that we saw him
larger than life of just whathis knowledge base was and how
educated he was and just howwell read and knew about fire
(30:20):
departments all over the countrywho went through these things.
There was never a shortage ofthat person's knowledge and his
willing to share it in a waythat was important to us because
it could save our lives ofleadership decisions,
decision-making skills, how tolead in that times of chaos and
crisis, but I actually got tosee, you know that humility.
He would be the first one thatwould speak up to say you know,
(30:41):
I think we can do that onebetter.
I necessarily don't like howthat one went down and there's
some things there that I justneed to communicate better and
he just took ownership all thetime and of course, we're
thinking I thought it wentfairly well and he was awesome.
What went wrong?
But he was showing us that itwas okay to be able to say I can
(31:04):
do better.
I can do better and if I'mbetter than we as a team can be
better and would take on this.
The next training would be aplanned because of an incident
that we had had, you know,something that he felt we could
do better, he immediately rolledit into next week.
We're going to train on this.
We got to fill in some of thosegaps a little bit, but he made
(31:26):
it just it wasn't picking on it,it wasn't hurtful, it wasn't uh
, you guys suck, it was.
Commix.io (31:33):
I think I can do better.
Doug Cupp (31:34):
I think we do better and I think there was a few
things I definitely could havedone better, and I was pretty
stressed and he would just beopen and honest about it.
Um, and we saw that it worked.
Um, no one dog piled him andsaid, yeah, that's right, you
did, you should have been better.
No one, no one would ever saythat they would immediately just
respecting because of thathumility, um, and you know, the
(31:58):
last one that I always love toquote on another Roosevelt uh
aspect is the uh, no one careshow much you know until they
know how much you care.
Uh, and this individual trulycared about us Absolutely.
Not only is our psychologicalsafety, our, our wellbeing,
family life, how, how we led,you know, in our at work and
(32:24):
outside of work.
And you know he truly cared.
That's why he spent so muchtime with us, training us,
educating us and and doing thoseaspects.
But so those are the three.
I think one is, you know, trulya devotion to caring um, the
betterment of your team, uh,your department, the community,
that that call for service, thatyou have that ability to be
(32:45):
things better when things are.
You know, when a community isin crisis or a family's in
crisis that you show up and youhave the right skills, the right
people and the right knowledgeto make it better.
Um, and he truly cared.
And uh, there's the threethings I think that I try to
(33:06):
emulate from him is, you know,be, be humble, show humility and
you know, care about the peoplethat need you.
You know that are dependent onyou to provide that for them in
the organization.
Carol Park (33:23):
Yeah, and just being able to, as you said, he took
responsibility, which is so muchvulnerability, right, because
you're opening up to yeah, Icould have, I could have done
this better.
And then again, as it justtrickles down and builds that
within your team and then thattrickles down to those that you
(33:45):
serve, yeah, I hear it ineverything that you're saying
and sharing with us today.
So is there any like finalwords of wisdom of leadership,
vulnerability and leadershipthat you might want to leave us
with today?
Doug Cupp (34:05):
Yeah, I think you know some of the things and I
love doing, you know, interviewsand just talking to people that
have these like interests,because it just sparks your
memory again of things thatyou've either read or things
that you've shared, that youinstill for years in our
organization.
I think we're doing really wellwith this is truly providing
that psychological safety, butalso teaching that as a
(34:28):
leadership lesson and this issomething that Chief Murawski
always shared with me Talent'snot teaching.
(34:49):
You can't just tell someone andthey get it.
You have to show action, and mybehaviors and my action as a
leader is so important because,yeah, I'm telling them things,
but until they see how I behave,am I walking the walk, am I
truly a person of my word?
That builds that trust.
(35:09):
And so those are the thingsthat I needed them to be able to
trust me that I do believe inthe vulnerability.
They can show vulnerability,they can show their weaknesses,
they can wear all of thosethings right on their sleeves to
where we can talk about it andwork through it together.
But they had to believe me andso, through a few of those
(35:31):
situations, to make sure that Iwas a person of my word if
someone was struggling at work.
They were not pointed out, theywere not made to feel
embarrassed about it.
We gave them time off.
We gave them all the skills,the skills, the education,
whatever they needed.
We would make sure that wefocused on that.
(35:53):
No one was ever felt to besingled out and you know,
praising those individuals thatdid show vulnerability, that it
was successful.
They got through whatever.
They were challenged with this,you know, not unscathed, um,
but they got through it and wewere there to show them that
(36:13):
they are a part of the team.
That's for we will carry themand we will, uh, make sure that
they are successful in the longrun.
Through that.
But, um, those actions arereally important because if I
said, hey, yeah, we're going todo psychological safety, it's
the greatest new thing.
And then the first thing that Ido is, you know, tell someone
not now, I don't need to hearfrom you yeah, sounds like
(36:35):
another complaint.
No, I have to make sure thatI'm active, listening.
I really truly care about eachone of their, their problems
that they may be coming forwardwith they, they, they have to
know that I truly do care, thatI don't just create a policy and
say don't do this anymore.
You're an example.
We have to be able to show thatand through those actions
(36:58):
because they have to be able tosee it, to start trusting that
it's okay to do that in thisworld, to be able to say, man, I
messed up today, I coulddefinitely do better, and we go,
yeah, and we will, we will, weabsolutely will, because that
was the first step, knowing thatwe can do better.
Yeah, wow.
Carol Park (37:19):
It's the action, yes , the action.
I totally understand why theteam that was recruiting reached
out to you the day thatapplications were due to say,
hey, where's yours?
And so your vulnerability, andthat you found peace in knowing
that they're looking for theright fit.
(37:40):
So you didn't have to fit intosomething, you just had to be
you.
You just had to be yourself.
You just had to put yourapplication in and know why they
chose you.
Like I hear all of yourleadership skills and you know I
did.
When I interviewed Holger theother day, just said to him and
(38:02):
I want to say to you, thank youfor your service, for your being
a first responder, to dare tolead in this way, to have the
courage to be vulnerable.
So again, we're so honored tohave you as a guest on the
podcast today and just can'tthank you enough for your
(38:22):
service.
Doug Cupp (38:24):
Well, thank you so much, I greatly appreciate it.
I love having thoseconversations.
Well, thank you so much, Igreatly appreciate it.
I love having thoseconversations and you know we
owe a lot to the fire serviceand you know their dedication
and it's been a privilege to beable to serve in that way to my
communities and as well to theservice, and definitely
(38:44):
appreciate your time and sharingthis important topic of
psychological safety andvulnerability and you know
that's the future of the fireservice right there.
Commix.io (38:54):
Thanks for tuning in to the Courage Unmasked podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a review.
It really helps us grow.
Follow us on social media forupdates and a look at what's
coming next, and a big thank youto our sponsor, comixio, for
supporting this journey.
Until next time, keep leadingwith courage.
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Courage
Unmasked podcast again, wherewe're shining the light on
vulnerability and the courage ofvulnerability.
And I'm really excited today tointroduce to you our guest,
doug Cupp, who is a fire chiefand certainly understands
(00:24):
vulnerability.
He's also had lots ofexperience in leadership and so
he's going to also share with usvulnerability and leadership.
So, again, super excited tohave you here today, doug, so
thank you for being our guest.
Doug Cupp (00:41):
Well, thank you.
I appreciate the time anddefinitely dedication to
learning about vulnerability.
Carol Park (00:48):
Well, we're excited to have you, so tell us a little
bit about how you chose yourprofession and how you became a
fire chief.
Doug Cupp (00:58):
Yeah, you know, I think my story might be similar
to a lot where I feel like I didnot choose the profession, but
maybe the profession chose me.
And you know we come up with alot of plans in life and other
things happen.
So the son of a veterinarian,you know I think he always
(01:21):
wanted us to kind of ventureinto that world and we as the
kids we kind of did.
But you know mine took more of.
The one piece that I rememberthe most about my dad was that
you know he did a lot ofemergencies, you know animals in
crisis, you know something gothit by a car or was really sick
(01:42):
and he would drop whatever hewas doing and, you know, go to
help a family that had waslosing a pet or you know a loved
one like that.
And I remember the, the servicethat he he always provided to
his customers and the great workthat he felt.
And so I I wasn't reallyinterested in the veterinary
(02:05):
medicine so much, but I spent alittle bit of time, you know,
getting my, you know justputting my toes in the water a
little bit, and in emergencyservices and I started working
on a beach for a fire departmentin Nags Head, north Carolina,
and so we worked for the firedepartment but we were kind of
(02:26):
just doing ocean rescue and sowe just kind of ran one division
of it which was just all theocean rescue type stuff and EMS
that happens on the beach.
And you know, it was just agreat summer job while I was
going to school and I didn'treally have anything particular
of doing that for a living, buta couple of seasons of that I
(02:46):
really loved being able to be apart of a great team and we came
from all different walks oflife.
We had people that wereex-military, we had people that
were in the fire service and didthis as another part of the job
and just through all thoseconversations they just get you
really, you know, fired up andand a sense of belonging.
(03:07):
This is, these are your people.
They understand you, they're infor the same reasons.
You know they're all hilarious,they're all really fun people
and they take the work seriousand so.
But we had a pretty criticalcall one day and I found myself
in a section of beach where Iwas completely alone, and we're
(03:28):
usually paired up in a couple ofteams, but I got there real
early in the morning and noticedthat there was a family in
great distress and they did notspeak English, they were of
foreign descent and I'm tryingto make myself very aware to
them that I'm here and Icouldn't tell what was going on.
They could not communicate tome, I could not understand the
(03:50):
stress that they were having.
I'm looking in the water, I'mtrying to find out what's going
on.
I don't see anything that'sbringing attention.
Maybe it's just a family fight,a family disagreement going on,
but it started to really stressme out and I remember, you know
, just kept looking at thehorizon, looking for anything of
why they may be in so muchdistress.
(04:11):
Uh, and I saw it and there wasa body in the water and, uh,
look pretty lifeless.
And so, not to draw a longstory, but it ended up having a
positive outcome to where it wasa very long swim, a very long
(04:32):
rescue, and did it, you know,pretty much solo, with a few
bystanders that helped and justdirected them and, yeah, it had
a positive outcome.
You know she was lifeless,pulseless, you know, not
breathing, and we brought herback to where she spent some
time in the hospital, but just acouple of days she left the
hospital, walked out and had noissues long-term issues from
what had happened.
(04:53):
And that moment, right there, Ithought, if that only happens
one more time in my career, mycareer is worth it.
But one of the things I reallyremember about it was that I
don't really think about thetraining.
I don't remember thinking abouthow to do CPR.
I didn't think about how to dothe rescue, it just did it.
And so I pay so much respect tothe people that trained me and
(05:17):
had a devotion to trainingpeople like me to where we
didn't think we were onautopilot and all those
stressors that we had is, am Igoing to remember what to do?
Am I going to remember how todo it?
Um, you just did it and youknow you fought through the
exhaustion, you fought througheverything and it was amazing.
And so at that point I said Idon't know what my plan was.
(05:39):
But now I have a plan and andso I moved out West to start
working into the wildfire area.
I really enjoyed the wildernessaspect and wildfires and and
pretty quickly got a job workingin Fort Collins for Poudre Fire
Authority, where Holger Durr,who was on your show, but I
(06:01):
worked together in that, in thatworld and you know what a great
fire department and you know,uh, worked together in that, in
that world and, uh, you knowwhat a great fire department and
you know it happened reallyquickly to be able to get a job
and be able to move through theranks.
I had incredible mentors, uh,that pushed me to.
You know, push myself, get an?
Uh, go to school, get amaster's degree, go through
leadership trainings and coursesand and just really improve my
(06:25):
craft and my ability, but alsopass it on to the up and comers
and pass along what I'm learningonto them, just as my mentors
did for me.
And so I never really thought Iwanted to be a fire chief.
It was just something that youknow.
It didn't have the glory, itjust had the stress and the
politics.
It just did not look likeanything I really wanted to do.
(06:47):
But you know things, thingschange in your career and you
start to get a calling whereothers you know consulting firms
and people are talking.
And I think the first time thatI became at that level of a
division chief was working up inthe mountains and really
(07:08):
enjoyed that particular area.
And it was a training chief jobwhere I loved training.
I loved being able to keeppeople safe through training and
educate them and let them learnfrom my mistakes that I had
made so hopefully they wouldn'tmake the same mistakes I did,
(07:35):
and I really loved it and itjust kept fostering that passion
I had of mentoring others,showing people how to be
successful in their careers andall those pieces.
And so I was jumping back andforth doing some wildfire
management for the County.
I was, uh, I did an interimchief job for a really small
volunteer fire department thatallowed me, like tiptoe into
being a fire chief with you knowjust kind of part-time position
(07:56):
that they had, um, and Ithought, man, I'm really
enjoying this.
I really love giving back tothe community.
I love that challenge.
That truly it is.
Every day is a challenge as afire chief.
But it didn't take too longbefore, you know, things were
going really well and I thoughtI was just pretty happy.
And another consulting firm atDalton said your name comes up a
(08:18):
lot in this area, aboutthinking about being a fire
chief over an eagle, and I said,oh, that's interesting.
I've never really had ainterest in being a fire chief.
It just kind of happened and wetalked for a while.
And then they asked me if Iwould apply and I said, well,
I'm not.
I'm not sure I'm cut out for it, but I'll I'll think about it.
(08:40):
And I remember he called likethe day before the applications
everything we're doing goes.
I thought we talked about this.
I thought you were going toapply.
Have not seen your application.
I said I'm still thinking aboutit because it's due today.
And I said, well, it's allready.
I just really want to make surethat I'm the right fit for that
organization and that I'mprepared to take on those
(09:01):
challenges and I don't want tolet anyone down.
And he said, well, that's upfor us to decide.
If you're ready and you're thegood fit, so just apply and then
we will determine whetheryou're a good fit.
That gave me comfort to knowthat I don't have to be the best
, I have to be the right fit.
And that's what I wanted.
(09:23):
And so they ended up giving methe job.
They took back several uh, topcandidates and went through a
process and I was able to bemyself.
I had no worries.
I was going to be myself andwhat type of leader I was going
to be.
And if it worked out, great.
And if I didn't, I knew it justwasn't a good fit and none of
us would be happy.
Uh, but they did go with me andso I've been there eight years
now and very happy with it.
(09:45):
I'm glad I put down my fears ofwhat I thought being a fire
chief would be.
I thought you know, stand up tothe challenges.
I know how, I've known how todo that, so you know work
through that again and it's beena great eight years.
It really has been Wow and it'sbeen a great eight years.
Carol Park (10:05):
It really has been.
Wow.
Your story of even how you gotinto the profession pretty
amazing.
And then the call that youstarted to feel and hear along
the way really amazing.
And two things that stood outto me as you were talking teams,
you mentioned very early onthat you were a part of a team,
(10:27):
you felt like you belonged, andyour natural leadership, which
apparently continued to justfrom that first crisis moment on
the beach where you did lead,you were looking and you led and
the positive outcome.
But then that leadership thatjust keeps showing up.
(10:49):
So, as you were rising throughthe ranks and people were
noticing and identifying you asa leader and asking you to come
and apply as the leader, isthere a certain like, maybe
lesson that stands out to youabout leadership along the way?
Doug Cupp (11:09):
Oh, I think there's so many lessons.
Uh, you know, leadership issuch a journey, you know it's.
You think it's like an endstate, but it's, it's not.
It's a journey and everyone'staking their path to it.
And and I I certainly had youknow those hard knocks and some,
some very weird mindsets.
You know, when you I'm comingon 30 years now in the fire
(11:30):
service and that alone scares me, holy cow, that is a lot, um.
But you know, you, you try toreflect back on some of those
lessons and you know some of thethings that I did not have a
good mindset at certain timeswhere you're you're wanting to
step up into roles that you'renot actually ready for, you just
wouldn't.
(11:50):
You wanted the challenge, youwanted to grow, you wanted these
things, but maybe you just youweren't ready yet, you didn't
have the tools, you didn't havethe right mentoring yet, and, um
, the time would come and go andshe felt like like, oh, I'm
kind of a failure, I didn't dowell in that promotion, I'm not
ready, and but there's a reasonfor that.
(12:11):
And so you're also learningpatience.
You're also learning, um, whenyou don't have all the right
tools yet, um, but it alsoallows you to know what I need
to achieve, to be ready, to beready to serve in a different
capacity.
When you start to becomeleaders of leaders, it's a big
(12:32):
jump in your career.
You know leading, you know anengine company or a truck
company is one thing.
I mean, they're all.
They're all great leaders.
But when you are nowsupervising supervisors of other
supervisors and you're justtrying to not tell them how to
do it, but like how to lead inthat chaotic environment and so
(12:56):
sometimes those hard knocks aregreat and you take those with um
as a great opportunity to learnto say why, why was I in a rush
?
Or why didn't I say no, uh tothose?
Uh, why did I say yes, uh, tosome of the others?
And you know how would I dothat again?
Um, you know, andself-reflection is such, a, such
(13:17):
a huge piece of leadership ofmaking sure you go back and look
at how did I get here and arethere better ways?
Am I happy with you, know thatjourney, what do I need to
change to make sure that thenext journey is even better?
Carol Park (13:33):
So, I hear the self-awareness or the
self-reflection that's in there.
You've mentioned mentoringalong the way, patience, which I
think it's patience withyourself, right, where it's like
being able to find some of thatself-compassion with the hard
(13:53):
knocks.
Brown's work, again, where shesays when we go into the arena,
meaning the arena ofvulnerability, uncertainty, risk
, emotional exposure, you'regoing to have failures.
We're humans, right, and so howdo we take the hard knocks, be
(14:14):
able to use those to becomebetter leaders, to teach others?
So is there any particularalong the way, in the
vulnerability, hard knocks thatstand out where you really
learned and grew and others thengrew under you?
Doug Cupp (14:36):
yeah, like I said, there's when you've been in for
30 years or so.
Carol Park (14:39):
There's so many to choose from which one do I pick?
Doug Cupp (14:42):
yeah yeah, which hard knock, which which time did
they get knocked down to uh, tolearn from?
But, uh, and I will say, whenyou brought up the arena, um,
you know we, we have you knowthe, the poster of Roosevelt,
that Brene Brown talks about theman in the arena, and so you
(15:04):
know some of those that that Ithink I had so much um
opportunity because the mentorsI had that you know, would pick
you back up.
Um, you fall down, you make amistake and you know that set
for me the type of leader that Iwanted to be, and whether we
(15:26):
went to a fire, and it'd be thefirst one that I'd have as an
officer, as a captain, and it'sthe first one where you're first
in, you're making all thosecritical decisions, the go, no
go choice.
How are we going to search?
It's two o'clock in the morningand there's just so much to
(15:49):
read within seconds and come upwith a plan and communicate it,
and so you're not going to do it.
Well, but you think all thattraining it's going to go
flawlessly, because in trainingit did, because it's such a safe
environment, and you know whenyou're going to get into the
environment, when you go backand look at the tapes of, uh,
the recordings, and you justthink, why did I say that on the
radio?
(16:09):
Uh, like, oh, my God, you know.
And you, just you beat yourselfup, um, and you go, you went
through the promotional exam,you got the position, and then
then now it's real, now it'sreal life, and so you realize
that you're going to makemistakes, not everything is
going to go as planned, andyou're going to have to be
flexible and be resilient to beable to catch up to this
(16:33):
unfolding incident that'shappening, and people are
waiting for you to be able togive orders and to have this
coordinated effect for all thoseteam members all having the big
plan in place of what to do andeveryone's task and tactic is
important because how they haveto line up, and so there's a lot
(16:53):
of pressure on that and you'renot going to nail it for sure,
and I have not been on one thatI ever felt like I nailed, and
so I used to be able to focus on, or I wouldn't say used to I.
I think I, my mindset wouldalways be how do I do it better?
How do I do it better?
Don't do this again, don't dothat again.
Make sure you do this.
(17:15):
You missed this on that call andthe journey really shifted when
I started learning about.
You know, how do I manage that?
How do I manage the fact thatI'm not going to get it right,
um, that I'm not going to beperfect?
How do I manage the learningthat happens after that, not
just the technical piece.
Say this in the radio.
Don't say this make sure Iorder this Um, cause I'm still
(17:38):
going gonna fumble with thatCause every instance different
Um.
But how do I create a bettermindset of thinking um processes
and you know that really, Ithink, helped me.
One, the psychological safetywe talk about is that you know,
stop beating yourself up so muchabout this, that, uh, you know
(17:58):
you're, you're so hypercriticalthat you're your worst enemy in
this.
Uh, everyone else is providingyou great feedback, but they're
not anywhere as hurtful as youare to yourself.
And I had to learn that, uh,quite a bit, because I was like,
oh they're, they're going topick on me and they're going to
tell me that I did it wrong.
No it was me telling myself astory that that's what they were
(18:21):
doing.
Carol Park (18:22):
Yeah, that inner critic yeah.
Doug Cupp (18:25):
Yeah, they.
You know people wanted you todo better.
You know they'd bring it up,but it was a completely
professional way.
Commix.io (18:31):
Yeah.
Doug Cupp (18:32):
I shouldn't have feared that at all.
I was creating a fear in myhead and I see it all the time
in our officers that there's alot of pressure on that to do it
right.
Carol Park (18:44):
Everyone's watching, yeah so it sounds like as you
were learning that lesson foryourself.
Part of probablyself-compassion in there, versus
just that inner critic thatfears judgment but you're
judging yourself so harshly sothe self-compassion that comes.
Critic that fears judgment, butyou're judging yourself so
harshly so the self-compassionthat comes with that.
(19:04):
So as you learned that, thenI'm sure in leadership that
trickles down.
So does that?
How do you then convey that Ithink we learn first and then we
can teach it.
Convey that I think we learnfirst and then we can teach it
Right.
So how did you learn that andthen convey?
Doug Cupp (19:26):
that to those that you are leading?
Yes, and I think that reallylined up with my.
You know, my my biggest passionright now is really in training
and education, and you know,passing that on and that's
that's the.
I think the most importantpiece to pass on is you know,
how do you manage that piece ofit, of the learning that comes
from messing up from a failure,from those, and how to be able
(19:50):
to handle it.
It's not time to beat yourselfup, and so I do.
I do a ton of work with thenational fire Academy, as well
as um, the national wildlandcourting group, and teaching and
a lot of different.
You know, contract work to beable to, to show people how to
learn, versus don't just go inand beat yourself up and think
(20:14):
that that's going to changeanything.
Is that that's not really agreat way to be able to to learn
?
Is that that self-reflection isimportant?
However, you know we're tryingto teach a mindset, we're trying
to teach growth.
Uh, not well, you did it wrong,do it better.
Well, that doesn't go very far.
And so, when we go through anddo fire scenarios, it's really
(20:38):
important that we set a cultureof learning, because you're
giving them fire problems thatare extremely difficult, that
they're not going to just nail.
There's going to be piecesthey're going to miss.
And so, when we go in and weteach these courses that I
really love so much, is thatwe're really looking at the
(20:58):
growth?
Is that allow them to workthrough their fears, step up,
take a chance.
They're going to get it wrongand it's okay.
Is that we're going to?
We're going to take away allthe positive things that went
really well.
We're going to do those againand when, each time that we do a
scenario, we're going to addfour more things that we do well
, for more things we do well andjust continue that process,
(21:21):
versus harping on everythingthey did wrong.
It's these four things weregreat.
We're going to add these otherthree things.
We're going to do it untilthey're flawless.
They're they're that thatpositivity of like how to grow
versus what not to do, I thinkis something we have to develop
in how we train people.
Not you can't just tell it tothem and they get it, you have
(21:41):
to show it to is something wehave to develop in how we train
people.
Not you can't just tell it tothem and they get it.
You have to show it to them andyou have to show them an
environment of learning.
When you're in these courseswhere it's comfortable for them
in a very uncomfortable world,that they can try and fail and
it's going to be okay becauseit's training and they're going
to do it again.
They're going to be better eachtime that they do it.
Carol Park (22:02):
Yeah, I was thinking that you, you touched on the
psychological safety which partof that is permission to fail,
especially in training, asyou're saying.
So it's permission to fail sothat you can learn, do it better
, so that as you started yourstory there on the beach, the
crisis, you said it's like youweren't thinking wait, how do I
(22:25):
do CPR and wait how do I?
You know, it's just, it came toyou because of the training and
so permission to fail intraining, so that which, again,
even in real life it's.
You also said nobody's evergoing to get it perfect, but
developing that trust within ateam so that you can work
(22:48):
together as a team, how do youempower your team members and
what role does trust play inthat?
Doug Cupp (22:57):
Oh, that's huge.
I mean, everything comes downto the, the trust.
And since we're kind of talkingabout the psychological safety
aspect of that, um, it goes sofar that you know the, the trust
that they have, not only in theinstructor who would be
teaching them.
You know these skills, uh, toknow that you're not just
setting up something to watchthem fail and to point out that
(23:19):
you're smarter than them.
So a lot of the training isreally important.
But when we do whether it'straining or we're just doing an
after action review of how acall went, is that, you know we
break that into all of thosepieces of.
You know the engineer did theother right pump calculations
that they were able to feel tomake a good decision without
(23:43):
asking for permission.
If you know it may not be theexact way, but if they saw
something and then they trustthat, their officer, you know,
says, yeah, that's your job, doit.
And everyone has, you know, hasthe big picture.
That's that big piece where wecan be really a cohesive unit.
Everyone knows that we need torescue the people and we need to
(24:05):
put the fire out and all ofthose pieces and everyone within
that has that freedom to beable to work to their best
efficiencies, the best decisions, as long as it fits that plan
and they're communicated.
I don't care how we really gotthere, as long as we're
communicating that we're gettingthere together.
(24:26):
So if there is some type ofobstacle or issue, that they're
allowed to be able to voice thatand say that I'm going to have
to do this because this happened, versus an officer who would
say, well, wait, let me see howthis is going down, let me fix
(24:47):
this, like no, you have to beable to trust the training of
each one of those individualsthe firefighter, the engineer,
the officer, the battalion chief, the incident commander,
whoever that is is that you haveto be able to trust that
they're making decisions thatfit this big plan.
They're trained to do that, solet them use their training to
be able, you know, and thatpsychological safety is really,
(25:11):
really important, and I remember, you know, a story that really
resonated with me was in theculture code that you know,
talked about a Navy SEAL officer, and when they would train, his
words would resonate of thethings they always believed in,
which were let's see if you canpunch holes in this plan.
(25:31):
Does anyone have any great ideasand would encourage people to
speak up, because we knew thatnot everyone's going to feel
that safety to be able to say,hey, did you see that piece of
the roof over there is gettingready to go in.
They may not be, oh, surelysomeone else sees it.
And I'm a rookie.
(25:51):
I'm a rookie, I should just befocused on what I'm doing.
But do they have that trust thatthey can say something and
they're not going to be toldshut up, you don't know anything
, or just sit down and I'll tellyou what you're thinking, and
some of the old adages we'vealways heard in the fire service
.
But can they speak up and arethey encouraged?
(26:12):
That's what we have to do asleaders is not just expect that
they will do that, not justexpect that they will do that.
We actually have to encourageit by opening up that
conversation, that when we'reall stressed about a situation
we haven't been in so youwouldn't have any great ideas
does anyone, you know, have a abetter plan than this one?
Does anyone see a problem withthe plan that I came up with?
(26:32):
I want to know now, because wehave to start moving in a
direction moving in a direction.
Carol Park (26:44):
Yeah, I hear you empowering them really from the
time that they start theirtraining.
Not, oh, once you've had thismany years now you can speak up
like you're asking for it fromthe get-go.
It's like raise your hand.
We want to hear we were workingas a team with that.
Doug Cupp (26:59):
Yeah, it was amazing in the fire services that you
know we all come from thesecrazy backgrounds.
You know I was able to useworking for my father as a
veterinarian on weekends when hedidn't have staffing because we
had a large animal rescue teamthat you know, if an animal got
caught in a, you know, in sometype of fencing or machinery, I
(27:22):
got to use.
Growing up as a veterinarian,we had another individual that
had spent, I think, eight yearsas a Navy SEAL.
Of course we're going to allowhim to be on the swift water
rescue team and you know.
And then there are people thathad, you know, grown up and
worked on a farm for years andyears and just their knowledge
(27:44):
of you know machinery and justso you know, everyone comes with
that.
And if you encourage it, likeyeah, you know my previous job,
this is how we did it, like itdoesn't have to be the fire
service way.
It can be something that youlearned, you know, from some
other occupation.
Whatever your background is, weall come from different worlds
(28:05):
and encouraging that, you know,has to happen for better success
for the team.
Carol Park (28:11):
Yeah, that, those life experiences that
individuals bring in.
I was thinking even when youstarted with you know your dad
was a veterinarian and thosecrisis moments of maybe
someone's animal perhaps got hitby a cart, it's like even early
on for you, crisis was kind ofa part of your growing up that
(28:34):
you kind of became familiar andso it wasn't so scary.
Perhaps I mean not, it canstill be scary, I get it but
yeah, it was kind of part ofyour growing up and so you bring
that into the teamwork too.
Is there like if you thought ofgood leaders, bad leaders which
I hate to be so black and white, because nobody's either a good
(28:57):
leader or a bad leader but ifyou thought of traits of leaders
, that would be a good leadertrait versus bad leader traits?
What might you?
What do you think?
Doug Cupp (29:11):
You know the mentors that I had, that I truly, truly
believed that they were justsome of the best leaders that I
you know, and just having themin person was just amazing,
because you read about greatleaders in books.
There's not a shortage ofleadership books on the market
that talk about great leadersand I was fortunate to have them
(29:33):
write in person and some of thethings that I saw that they did
that I hear all the time thatpeople say these things, but
then it's really hard toactually do it.
This one individual that Iworked for he was a captain on
the truck and I worked for him.
He became a fire chief in theneighboring district, chief
Mirowski, and just a great,great man and a great leader.
(29:58):
But he showed humility ofteneven though that we saw him
larger than life of just whathis knowledge base was and how
educated he was and just howwell read and knew about fire
(30:20):
departments all over the countrywho went through these things.
There was never a shortage ofthat person's knowledge and his
willing to share it in a waythat was important to us because
it could save our lives ofleadership decisions,
decision-making skills, how tolead in that times of chaos and
crisis, but I actually got tosee, you know that humility.
He would be the first one thatwould speak up to say you know,
(30:41):
I think we can do that onebetter.
I necessarily don't like howthat one went down and there's
some things there that I justneed to communicate better and
he just took ownership all thetime and of course, we're
thinking I thought it wentfairly well and he was awesome.
What went wrong?
But he was showing us that itwas okay to be able to say I can
(31:04):
do better.
I can do better and if I'mbetter than we as a team can be
better and would take on this.
The next training would be aplanned because of an incident
that we had had, you know,something that he felt we could
do better, he immediately rolledit into next week.
We're going to train on this.
We got to fill in some of thosegaps a little bit, but he made
(31:26):
it just it wasn't picking on it,it wasn't hurtful, it wasn't uh
, you guys suck, it was.
Commix.io (31:33):
I think I can do better.
Doug Cupp (31:34):
I think we do better and I think there was a few
things I definitely could havedone better, and I was pretty
stressed and he would just beopen and honest about it.
Um, and we saw that it worked.
Um, no one dog piled him andsaid, yeah, that's right, you
did, you should have been better.
No one, no one would ever saythat they would immediately just
respecting because of thathumility, um, and you know, the
(31:58):
last one that I always love toquote on another Roosevelt uh
aspect is the uh, no one careshow much you know until they
know how much you care.
Uh, and this individual trulycared about us Absolutely.
Not only is our psychologicalsafety, our, our wellbeing,
family life, how, how we led,you know, in our at work and
(32:24):
outside of work.
And you know he truly cared.
That's why he spent so muchtime with us, training us,
educating us and and doing thoseaspects.
But so those are the three.
I think one is, you know, trulya devotion to caring um, the
betterment of your team, uh,your department, the community,
that that call for service, thatyou have that ability to be
(32:45):
things better when things are.
You know, when a community isin crisis or a family's in
crisis that you show up and youhave the right skills, the right
people and the right knowledgeto make it better.
Um, and he truly cared.
And uh, there's the threethings I think that I try to
(33:06):
emulate from him is, you know,be, be humble, show humility and
you know, care about the peoplethat need you.
You know that are dependent onyou to provide that for them in
the organization.
Carol Park (33:23):
Yeah, and just being able to, as you said, he took
responsibility, which is so muchvulnerability, right, because
you're opening up to yeah, Icould have, I could have done
this better.
And then again, as it justtrickles down and builds that
within your team and then thattrickles down to those that you
(33:45):
serve, yeah, I hear it ineverything that you're saying
and sharing with us today.
So is there any like finalwords of wisdom of leadership,
vulnerability and leadershipthat you might want to leave us
with today?
Doug Cupp (34:05):
Yeah, I think you know some of the things and I
love doing, you know, interviewsand just talking to people that
have these like interests,because it just sparks your
memory again of things thatyou've either read or things
that you've shared, that youinstill for years in our
organization.
I think we're doing really wellwith this is truly providing
that psychological safety, butalso teaching that as a
(34:28):
leadership lesson and this issomething that Chief Murawski
always shared with me Talent'snot teaching.
(34:49):
You can't just tell someone andthey get it.
You have to show action, and mybehaviors and my action as a
leader is so important because,yeah, I'm telling them things,
but until they see how I behave,am I walking the walk, am I
truly a person of my word?
That builds that trust.
(35:09):
And so those are the thingsthat I needed them to be able to
trust me that I do believe inthe vulnerability.
They can show vulnerability,they can show their weaknesses,
they can wear all of thosethings right on their sleeves to
where we can talk about it andwork through it together.
But they had to believe me andso, through a few of those
(35:31):
situations, to make sure that Iwas a person of my word if
someone was struggling at work.
They were not pointed out, theywere not made to feel
embarrassed about it.
We gave them time off.
We gave them all the skills,the skills, the education,
whatever they needed.
We would make sure that wefocused on that.
(35:53):
No one was ever felt to besingled out and you know,
praising those individuals thatdid show vulnerability, that it
was successful.
They got through whatever.
They were challenged with this,you know, not unscathed, um,
but they got through it and wewere there to show them that
(36:13):
they are a part of the team.
That's for we will carry themand we will, uh, make sure that
they are successful in the longrun.
Through that.
But, um, those actions arereally important because if I
said, hey, yeah, we're going todo psychological safety, it's
the greatest new thing.
And then the first thing that Ido is, you know, tell someone
not now, I don't need to hearfrom you yeah, sounds like
(36:35):
another complaint.
No, I have to make sure thatI'm active, listening.
I really truly care about eachone of their, their problems
that they may be coming forwardwith they, they, they have to
know that I truly do care, thatI don't just create a policy and
say don't do this anymore.
You're an example.
We have to be able to show thatand through those actions
(36:58):
because they have to be able tosee it, to start trusting that
it's okay to do that in thisworld, to be able to say, man, I
messed up today, I coulddefinitely do better, and we go,
yeah, and we will, we will, weabsolutely will, because that
was the first step, knowing thatwe can do better.
Yeah, wow.
Carol Park (37:19):
It's the action, yes , the action.
I totally understand why theteam that was recruiting reached
out to you the day thatapplications were due to say,
hey, where's yours?
And so your vulnerability, andthat you found peace in knowing
that they're looking for theright fit.
(37:40):
So you didn't have to fit intosomething, you just had to be
you.
You just had to be yourself.
You just had to put yourapplication in and know why they
chose you.
Like I hear all of yourleadership skills and you know I
did.
When I interviewed Holger theother day, just said to him and
(38:02):
I want to say to you, thank youfor your service, for your being
a first responder, to dare tolead in this way, to have the
courage to be vulnerable.
So again, we're so honored tohave you as a guest on the
podcast today and just can'tthank you enough for your
(38:22):
service.
Doug Cupp (38:24):
Well, thank you so much, I greatly appreciate it.
I love having thoseconversations.
Well, thank you so much, Igreatly appreciate it.
I love having thoseconversations and you know we
owe a lot to the fire serviceand you know their dedication
and it's been a privilege to beable to serve in that way to my
communities and as well to theservice, and definitely
(38:44):
appreciate your time and sharingthis important topic of
psychological safety andvulnerability and you know
that's the future of the fireservice right there.
Commix.io (38:54):
Thanks for tuning in to the Courage Unmasked podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a review.
It really helps us grow.
Follow us on social media forupdates and a look at what's
coming next, and a big thank youto our sponsor, comixio, for
supporting this journey.
Until next time, keep leadingwith courage.
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