February 7, 2025 • 47 mins
What can writers teach us about navigating career pivots? In this episode of Courageous Conversations, host Paul Tripp sits down with screenwriter and storyteller Tobin Addington to explore the art of reinvention—both on the page and in life.
Tobin shares how writers, much like business leaders, face defining moments that force them to adapt, rethink their direction, and break through creative roadblocks. From reimagining characters to rewriting his own career path, Tobin reveals the strategies he uses to push past uncertainty and stay true to his voice.
Whether you're an executive considering a career shift, a creative struggling with self-doubt, or simply someone looking for inspiration, this episode is packed with wisdom on embracing change, taking risks, and finding new ladders to climb.
This episode is brought to you by AceUp and Produced and Edited by Buttered Toast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:05):
Welcome to Courageous Conversations, where we explore
the transformative pivotsleaders make in their careers.
But today I'm flipping thescript.
We often think about leadershippivots as those defining moments
that forced leaders to changedirection, adapt, or grow.
But what about writers?
How are their pivots similar tobusiness professionals?
(00:26):
Our guest today, TobinAddington, is not just a
brilliant writer, but someonewho has had to pivot countless
times throughout his career,stirring his writing and
characters through unexpectedchallenges.
In this episode, we'll dive deepinto how a writer leads the
narrative of their own career,Just as a leader does with their
teams.
I'm curious, how will today'sepisode push you to rewrite your
(00:48):
story?
All right, let's dive in.
Tobin, welcome to CourageousConversations.
Tobin (00:58):
Thanks.
It's great to be here.
Paul (00:59):
I really wanted to talk to you on the topic today of the
pivot of leadership, becauseoften we think of the pivot of
leadership or thosetransformational moments or
experiences that leaders havethat require them to pivot.
But because you are anintellectual that I really enjoy
engaging with, And you're awriter.
I thought how interesting itwould be to talk about a pivot
(01:22):
related to writing becauseyou've had to pivot throughout
your entire career in differentways as the leader of your
writing.
And so let's dive in.
What are you the product of?
Tobin (01:34):
Like most people, I'm the product of a lot of things.
Mostly I'm the product ofstories.
I think that we all as humanbeings are nothing more than a
accumulation of stories, storieswe're told, stories we tell
about ourselves.
It's the way we make sense of achaotic world.
It's a way we make sense of goodthings that happened to us and
(01:55):
bad things that happened to ustrying to create some sort of
order.
And so I think of myself as aproduct of stories, stories
about my past stories, but myfamily stories that I have just
attached myself to that comefrom other or more deeper
places.
And I think it's probably why Ido what I do.
Paul (02:13):
Interesting.
Would you just start us off witha favorite story about you?
Something that was maybeunexpected?
What's a favorite story?
Tobin (02:23):
You know, it's funny.
The first thing that comes tomind when you say that, when I
think about what I'm a productof, I think about the first
story that I remember reallyenveloping me as a kid that I
would play, most kids doimaginative play, you imagine
your characters, you imagineyour, whatever, whatever the
sort of thing you're growing upin.
When I was six years old.
(02:45):
I saw on cable TV, because thisis before there were VHSs, you
couldn't watch movies wheneveryou wanted them.
You had to catch stuff when itcame up on TV, if it wasn't new
in the theater.
And I saw a movie from 1939,blew my mind.
It was a story I was familiarwith, but told in a new way.
It was the Errol Flynn RobinHood, the Michael Curtiz
(03:06):
Technicolor Robin Hood movie.
And something about that movie,seeing this dashing, daring
noble guy who stood up againstcorruption and for the little
guy and something about andsword fighting just.
Electrified me to the point thatI got myself some green.
(03:28):
Tights and I got a sword and Igot a hat and I got the bow and
arrow with the suction, thickcups on the front and would run
around the woods behind ourhouse for hours playing Robin
Hood.
I would check the TV guide everyweek to see when it was going to
air again, twice a year, itshowed up on TBS or whatever.
And so it's two stories.
One story is the story of thisguy who finds a way to use his
(03:52):
skills to stand up for peoplewho can't stand up for
themselves.
and a story of me finding storyas a way to express something
inside me that I couldn'totherwise express, having to do
with feeling powerful andrunning around the woods as a
six, seven, eight, nine year oldkid.
Paul (04:12):
You know, that is such an interesting observation of we
relate to the story that's infront of us, but also the story
that it tells to us.
Tobin (04:21):
Mm Yeah, definitely.
Paul (04:22):
And then there was the story that your parents saw
manifesting in yourinterpretation of the story,
right?
Tobin (04:28):
Absolutely.
Absolutely right.
You're, you are generating yourown story as you live.
And people around you aretelling a version of that story
that they see from theirperspective.
Paul (04:38):
When you are writing a story and your character
experiences a need for a pivot,how do you know how to make that
pivot as a writer?
Like, how do you know whichdirection to go?
Because this parallels reallife.
People are like, well, shitshould I go do this or that?
Take this job or that job,right?
How do you make the decision forthe character?
Tobin (04:58):
It's really tricky.
We writers spend a lot of timecomplaining to each other or
moping with each other orbanging your heads together to
figure this out, either in ourown stories or, working in
teams.
There are so many things thatcome up when you're crafting a
story, when you're writing astory that will force you to
change the direction that thestory goes.
(05:19):
It could be external, someoneyou're writing something for
gives you a note and says.
You have to change this thing,or you have to find a new way to
do it, or you find yourself,you've written yourself into a
corner, and you are stuck, andyou can't the path that you were
on is no longer available toyou.
It doesn't, it does, it's notproviding any more sustenance to
you.
And you have to find a new wayto move forward the way that I
(05:42):
have over time found my waythrough that after you sort of
bang your forehead against thekeyboard and tell it bleeds.
And sometimes just come to theterms with the fact that you
have to pivot that you can't,that it's fruitless to keep
going the way you thought youwere supposed to go, then it's a
matter of.
For me.
Quieting myself until the path Ishould go on reveals itself,
(06:07):
which might mean taking a stepaway from the thing I'm working
on and not working on it for awhile, for days, for weeks.
It might mean increasing mymeditation.
It might mean more exercise,something break the pattern that
I was in that had me locked intothe direction that I was going
so that the new path.
shows itself.
I mean, people talk about thisall the time.
(06:27):
You're in the shower and thegreat idea comes.
You're on a run and the greatidea comes.
You're on a swim and the greatidea comes.
So I have to always remindmyself in those moments to go do
those things to allow thatdoorway to open that I hadn't
seen, that I wasn't able to seebefore.
Paul (06:44):
It's so interesting to hear you talk about how when
you're blocked with a character,you need to put the character
down, put the story of thecharacter down and walk away and
break from the narrative thatyou're creating.
And I wonder, for leaderslistening, they get stuck and
they know they're stuck andthey're both the writer and the
(07:06):
character, right?
And the way they, yeah, what Iheard you say is take a break,
step away, go swimming.
That's how you do it when you'recreating the narrative.
Tobin (07:17):
Yeah, that's right.
Getting out of my own way is myway often to find a way forward.
And sometimes we don't have alot of time to do that.
And I'm sure this crossesindustries, obviously, that time
is you don't always have a weekto go not work on a thing.
So sometimes it has to be fast.
If I allow my subconscious thespace to work on the issue that
(07:38):
I'm on to find that new to dothe bushwhacking to find the new
trail for myself, it can do itquickly.
It might only need to be a walk.
It might need to be a goodnight's sleep.
It doesn't have to be long butsometimes not standing in front
of the problem.
allows the problem to resolveitself a little more easily, or
you do find a new way around it,I think.
Paul (07:59):
Give us a real example of that with a character that was,
you were like, we're so stuck.
I wrote the wrong story.
Tobin (08:07):
Absolutely.
I was working on a movieproject, a number of years ago.
I have on my walls in my office,I have cards up and I have all
the sort of I've planned out theway I think the story is going
to go.
The way that I write is often byblue skying at first.
And then because I'm writing forfilm and TV, I write scenes on
note cards.
(08:27):
I put those notes, cards up onthe wall and I can move them
around and see the movie takingshape.
Paul (08:31):
Like a vision.
Tobin (08:33):
Like a vision.
Exactly, exactly.
I had all the note cards up, Iwas writing my way through the
story, and I had a character whoI thought was the main character
of the story, who was pushingthe story all the way through,
and I got like halfway into thescript, so I was 50 some pages
into a 110 page movie, and hehad a complete story.
(08:56):
brick wall.
It felt like the scenes that Iwas writing for that character
were artificial.
They were, I was writing whatwas on the cards, what felt
right on the wall, what the planwas there, but it didn't feel
true.
It didn't feel it wasn't gettingme the kind of the juice that I
needed out of the story.
(09:18):
It's hard to explain, but I was,I was, I could have just sat
there and kept writing terriblescenes and finished what was on
the wall.
But what I realized was I wasfollowing the wrong character.
I had the wrong main characterin the story.
It was the wrong point of view.
And when we talk about, writingin characters in film and TV, we
(09:39):
talk about the character havingan arc.
Very often the character changesover time and the thing they
wouldn't do in the first sceneof the movie, they are forced to
do by the end or choose to do insome kind of new way.
The character that I had chosen.
Had nowhere to go.
They started good and theystayed good the whole time and
there was no, they had nogrowth.
They had no change.
So as I came to the second halfof the story, when the stakes
(10:01):
were supposed to get higher andeverything's supposed to get
more difficult, they werewaltzing through it because they
had no growth.
And so what I had to do whenthis was a humbling experience,
you have to rethink the storyand write it from a different
character's point of view.
So it became a differentcharacter story and that meant
rewriting everything that I'dhad, but once I found that this
(10:24):
secondary character, that hadmore farther to go, that once I
identified the issue that I hadwith that character, then I was
able to write through the restof the, I mean, I put new cards
on the wall.
I did the whole thing overagain.
But that's what it ended upbeing a point of view, a
perspective thing.
In that case, that was anextreme case.
It's often not quite so extreme,but that was one way, one way
through it.
The way I figured that out was Istepped away from that for a
(10:47):
while.
It was a couple of weeks.
I was like, I don't know what todo.
I'm never going to finish thisthing.
It's terrible.
I'm terrible.
The world is terrible, and I hadother jobs, so I had the luxury
of not having to do it in thatcompressed time period, and a
couple weeks later, I realized,oh, I was doing some kind of
exercise it's like, oh, maybeit's a different character's
story.
They're more interesting anyway.
And it was like, ah, there itis.
I figured out what it is.
Paul (11:08):
That whole example reminds me of so many people are stuck
in careers where there's nostory arc.
They're in their thirties,forties.
They want something different intheir life, right?
And you said, you know what?
I realized I needed to rewritethe story.
And there's so many parallels towhat you said about what people
faced in a leadership pivot andhow you write for characters.
(11:32):
I think the one thing I'mcurious about for you, yeah.
How did you know writing wasyour thing?
Tobin (11:39):
Looking back on it, I think I, I knew it before I knew
it.
We've talked about the storybefore, but, I was in second
grade.
So I was, it was not long afterI found Robin Hood and I was
seven, whatever.
And I'm in second grade and wehad to write, we had spelling
words each week.
You had 10 words you had tolearn how to spell.
(11:59):
And each week, one of theassignments was to write those
words into sentences.
So you knew how to use them incontext.
So I wrote my, no one suggestedthis.
I just, Because I was a littlebored, maybe, with writing
random sentences, I wrote myspelling words into sentences
that were a story and theteacher, my second grade
teacher, Mrs.
(12:20):
Simmons, read my story to theclass that week.
She didn't tell me she was goingto do this.
We all sat down.
She said, I wanted to show youthis.
She read this story.
And as I have learned toappreciate since then, it's the
first time someone really, itfelt like I was really being
seen.
It's the first time people wereseeing me, not just who I was
(12:40):
the good student or, my mom'sthe kindergarten teacher, all
the things that you're knownfor, but really truly inside
that I was a storyteller that Ihad stories in, even if it's
about this little dog thatcaptivated people.
And so in retrospect, I thinkthat's when it really, even
without me intellectuallyknowing it, because I wrote
stories from then on.
(13:01):
I mean, short stories, thenplays, then found movies and
never looked back and neverreally questioned it.
But I think that's the momentwhen it really happened.
Paul (13:09):
You know, you say you've never questioned it.
And I think that's the one thingI am amazed by in you is that
you write like you're runningout of time to quote Hamilton.
And, there are times in people'scareers where they feel seen and
they're like, ah, this is thething.
But then winter comes andthere's a quiet space by which
that recognition doesn't happenor accolades don't come or how
(13:32):
have you maintained the fire allthese years?
I don't understand it.
Tobin (13:37):
It's a great question.
And it's hard for me toarticulate because I don't fully
understand myself.
It's as primal to me as, I don'tthink I could not do it in one
form or another.
I've gone for long stretches oftime and not received, accolades
or, financial gain from it.
(13:58):
It's not that kind ofcalculation, for me, but I can't
not do it.
There was a time I had a healthissue where I couldn't, for a
variety of reasons, couldn'twatch movies.
I, visually, had a hard timesort of being able to process
visual information in the normalway without feeling ill and
things.
And so I couldn't, it was hardto work on movies at that time
(14:22):
because I was like not able tointeract with them in the same
way.
And it was a scary time and apretty discouraging time.
What I could do was listen toaudiobooks.
And eventually I could read.
I couldn't watch movies, but Icould read with one eye.
And so I started writing novels.
Not particularly with a thoughtto them being sold just because
I needed to write something andthere are stories in me that are
(14:45):
desperate to come out.
I just needed a way to uncorkthat, to exercise that.
and so for about a year.
I didn't write a scene of amovie or TV show, which I had
not done.
I've for what 30 years now.
At that point for 20 some years.
And so I found this other way ofgetting a story out that I could
(15:08):
do.
Not for accolades.
They're in a drawer, you know,they're just in a drawer.
But it's almost, it's likebreathing, it's therapy.
It's a thing I just can't notdo.
If I were, I imagine if I, whenI was, before I met Robin Hood,
I wanted to be a dentist becausemy great uncle was a dentist.
If I had become a dentist, Ithink I would still write.
Paul (15:27):
So when you meet people, do you write the story as you're
meeting them?
Are you like, Oh, this is thebackstory of that person.
Or do you just take it at facevalue?
Tobin (15:41):
I think a lot about writing now.
It's not a thing I do just forfun.
By accident, I've thought aboutthe craft a lot, so when I meet
people or I'm at a dinner partyor, go to, the kids, open house
at school and meeting people,I'm not thinking about it as a
scene or as a character as I'mthere, but what I'm trying to do
is absorb as much of it as Ican, dialogue, the way people
(16:03):
are dressed, the way people talkto each other, the way they
look, the best stuff That Iwrite will have some sort of
source in an experience thatI've had I was writing this
horror movie.
Not long ago.
And there's this dinner scenewhere this couple met this guy.
And at first he seems a littlescary and then he's kind of
charming.
And by the end of the dinner, hedoes something like completely
(16:23):
nails on the chalkboard to 1character.
I've been at dinners like thatwith people that I didn't know
at first.
And you're like.
Trying to gauge what they'relike and are you a threat?
Are you not?
And the stakes are heightened inthe movie.
It's all, we're doing it fordrama.
But those feelings underneathare feelings that in retrospect,
I have experienced at similardinner parties.
(16:43):
So not thinking aboutnecessarily at the time, but
often in retrospect, I'm miningmy past experience for.
The material.
Paul (16:51):
So basically everybody's game.
Tobin (16:54):
Yes.
If you know a writer, you areyour prey.
Yes.
Paul (16:58):
Okay.
Much like leaders stepping intonew roles.
How do you decide when it's timeto leave a genre or a format or
subject behind and explore newterritory specifically?
I'm thinking genre or formatbecause I know you have made
some pivots, you're on.
The own network with a couple ofChristmas movies now, right?
(17:19):
And that wasn't a genre that youwere tapped into a few years
ago.
Tobin (17:24):
No, no, that is interesting.
Yes.
The tricky thing about, Iimagine most careers, but my
experience is mostly in thearts, is that There's no path
laid out for you.
I think maybe this is just aperson who likes order, I, grew
up thinking, oh, I assume acareer is a ladder, right?
(17:46):
You climb rung to rung to rung,and the next step is in front of
you and it's a meritocracy.
And if you do this part well,you'll be rewarded with the next
step and off you go.
And at some point.
I think most people, for me,certainly, you find that you run
out of rungs on the ladder andyou're like, well, there's a
ladder there.
There's a rope over there.
There's a, and I got to jump tosomething else.
What do I do?
(18:07):
And I think that for a lot ofus, maybe we stand at that point
in the ladder for a while andlook around for.
Paralyzed in fear or whateverabout knowing what to do.
For me, the Christmas movie, soI mostly write mysteries and
thrillers.
That's the genre that I'm mostaccustomed to a lot of
investigations, anything with aninvestigation in it, I'm like,
I'm there.
(18:28):
When the opportunity came up, towrite a Christmas movie.
I hadn't sold anything in awhile, nothing that I had
written, for a long time, sinceanything had been fully
produced, that was just minethat I'd written entirely
myself.
And so I was at a bit of a endof a rung of a ladder, not
thinking, gosh, maybe I'm notgoing to write anymore, but more
(18:49):
like, what do I do next thatwill put me on a new ladder that
will put me in a new path.
And it was, just suggested tome, Hey, they make a lot of
Christmas movies.
Is maybe there's something inthat genre that you could write.
And when I began, the way thatthe pivot happened there for me
is rather than thinking, Oh,these are cheesy movies that, I
(19:12):
don't usually deal with.
They're not usually the genre Iwould seek out.
I thought back to, in the 1930sand 40s, the people who wrote
monster movies for Universal orwho wrote,, gangster movies by
the dozen for Warner Brothers,like all these old studio guys
who would sit in their littleBungalow and, on the studio lot
and just churn out these genremovies that some of which we now
(19:35):
look back on and say, wow,that's a classic.
Casablanca is one of thosemovies.
By the director of Robin hoodwhen I thought about it that
way, what's the challenge inthis for me?
Could I find a new way?
How can you twist within theformula a little bit to make
something fresh?
Can I twist the formula of aChristmas movie enough so that
I'm interested in it?
I'll be darned, the first one Iwrote sold and was shot within
(19:59):
two years of me writing it?
I've done two since then.
That's a remarkable amount ofstuff produced in a short period
of time for someone in myprofession, unless you're super,
super famous.
Now I'm at a place where I likethat ladder.
That ladder is fun, but thereare new challenges that I'm also
eyeing at the same time, andfinding the new way to make that
(20:20):
next pivot by choice, more thanpivot by I'm stuck and I need to
find a new way but it was partof it was humbling myself at the
top of that ladder to go do agenre that I would not normally
have pursued and I will admit atthe time felt a little sheepish
About doing, which is not fairto the genre or the people who
(20:42):
like it, but it's justnaturally,, I came out of film
school as like a snobby filmkid, right?
So it's finding sort of yourselfin all of these, in all of the
constellation of all thesethings, as you build the story
of your career, of your life, ofwhatever it is.
Paul (20:57):
How do you balance staying true to your creative voice
while responding to the changingdemands of the world?
We've moved away from cable.
We've gone to streaming rightnow.
It's moving from, HBO and thosetwo internet.
Tobin (21:13):
What's wild is we're reinventing cable right now
because streaming services areadding ads And they want you to
take the cheaper ad tier becausethey get money from the
commercials so we're justreinventing cable, but yeah, it
is it's a great questionEspecially right now in my
industry, there's a lot ofupheaval.
We've gone through a COVID wherepeople weren't going to movies
(21:34):
through a big strike where weweren't producing anything.
We weren't writing anything tothen a contraction of my
industry where there are fewerthings being made.
It's a tricky time right now inour business.
And what I've found that I, it'swhat the challenge for me is to
understand that that's happeningand accept that there's some
(21:55):
fear and anxiety on my part.
Because just naturally there arefewer places to sell the things
that I, my wares don't sell asmany places anymore because
there aren't as many buyers.
There are still people who wantstories and as long as there are
people who want stories thereare people who will listen to me
(22:16):
because I found that I canprovide something that not a lot
of people can and In fact, I canprovide something nobody else
can which is the stories I tellIt doesn't mean that they will
sell.
It doesn't mean that they'll besuper successful, but it is
acknowledging the fact thatthere are things I can do that
(22:36):
nobody else can do.
And I think that when, for meanyway, when I realized that,
when I really truly realizedthat it freed me up to
understand that there is amarketplace.
And I'm not gonna writesomething right now that you
could do that could never, everbe made, or, I'm not just
putting a middle finger up to anindustry.
(22:57):
But I'm going to try and find away to write the things that to
say no to things that maybewould be good to do, like from
a, if your plot, your careerkind of thing, but that aren't a
thing that just I can do.
And so finding that confidencehas allowed me to keep so far,
not going to blood to keep trueto that sense of creativity that
(23:18):
I tell stories that just I cantell, and then.
Allow for the fact that somethings will hit and some things
won't.
But if I try and be fake aboutit, that's a for sure way to go
nowhere.
Either into jobs I would beterrible at, or things that have
no return at all.
Paul (23:34):
I don't know, it's a confidence game.
Tell me, tell me, when was thatpivotal moment?
When did that awakening occurwhere you were like, Oh my God,
Tobin (23:41):
it occurred for me, it occurred in stages.
There were steps toward it.
The first time I had a scriptwin a giant contest, like a big,
big prize.
Paul (23:51):
When you were in New Jersey.
Tobin (23:52):
We were living in Brooklyn.
Yep.
And I was teaching in NewJersey.
We don't say we lived in NewJersey.
Paul (23:56):
Sorry.
I didn't, did I say lived?
I should have said worked.
You're right.
Tobin (24:00):
You lived in Brooklyn.
Sorry, New Jersey.
We'll say the same thing.
Everybody's got their, theirpride of where they were.
That's good.
Okay.
Good, good call.
Good call.
So I won this big prize and.
I remember writing, the peoplewho had who gave out this prize
to the organization had anewsletter they sent out and
(24:20):
they wanted me to write a columnfor it, having won the grand
prize at this best of 5, 000scripts or whatever.
And I remember the thing I wrotewas, you have to write stories
only you can tell.
So intellectually, I knew that.
You know, I could articulatethat 15 years ago, but I didn't
really feel it.
(24:42):
I wasn't living it, because Iwas still trying to find stories
that would do something specificfor me as in business or
whatever, it was a little, I wasjumping from ladder to ladder,
you know, just with a little bitof a flail to it, and I was
really concerned about whatpeople were going to think when
it was done, so it wasn't untilworking with a coach and looking
(25:02):
really deeply into why I do whatI do, Recognizing that I can
offer things that truly nobodyelse can.
And letting go of needing toprove anything to anybody.
Now, I say that as though it'sjust gone.
It's not just gone.
That comes back, I fight it allthe time.
(25:23):
But I know what it feels like tonot give a crap.
To write a thing that's like,well this I'm just writing.
It's coming out of me.
I can identify where it meanssomething to me.
And so I'm going to express itin a way that frees myself a
little bit from.
Expectations of people'sperceptions of me of the story
(25:45):
of whatever and so the more I'vedone it the easier it has become
and the less pressure I feel interms of the outside world's
approval Interestingly the morethe outside world approves it
has allowed me more success It'sopened more doors.
There are things happening in mycareer now that are really
(26:08):
exciting That only have comeabout because I am practicing
owning the fact that I havestories to tell and ways to tell
them that nobody else has.
Paul (26:19):
Authenticity, right?
So, let me ask you about that.
You get the idea, it's pouringout of you, how do you stay in
that moment?
Cause it takes, what, a coupleweeks to write a story?
Maybe a month.
How do you keep the flow going?
Tobin (26:37):
It's a great question.
For those of us who write moviesand TV, I mean, the last script
I had the idea for a year and ahalf ago, you start writing it,
it can take months.
Sometimes with the Christmasmovies, it's a much more, it's a
quicker turnaround.
That is sometimes weeks, whichis crazy.
So the trick is.
For me, on the longer durationthings, like when it is going to
(27:01):
take months, there are twothings that I have learned over
time.
One is I used to wait forinspiration to strike.
Used to be like, and there's astory of, that I've always
remembered that I think is true,of Tom Waits.
The musician talking aboutwriting songs and for years he
thought he was wait forinspiration and there's a window
(27:22):
that would open it would only beopen a certain amount and then
it would close and if he eithergot the thing or he didn't and
the story is he's driving acrossTexas or something and as the
window opens in the sky and asong is coming out and the way
the story goes he shakes hisfinger at the sky and says I'm
busy come back later And it did.
(27:43):
The window opened later.
And the way he describes thisis, he realized it was a
practice.
It was a partnership.
Him and his muse.
It wasn't a divine inspirationthat you either grab or you
don't.
That with a certain openingyourself to it, you can be in
conversation with theinspiration that you have.
So understanding that, andunderstanding that was the first
(28:05):
thing.
The other thing for me is, WhenI'm trying to stay in a thing,
and it is tricky, you're right,because there is, even though I
practice opening and closing thewindow, like, you do want to
catch the thing in as muchtotality as you can.
The trick for me is to, and Iforget, some teacher I had along
the way put it this way, theysaid, touch it every day.
(28:27):
You don't have to write a lot,even if it's just, right before
you go to bed, for me, writing astory, I call up my outline and
just read it one more time.
Or re read that scene, or listento the piece of music.
While I'm driving to work thatday, that Reminds me of how this
is supposed to feel.
And if I touch the story, evenon days when I'm not actively
(28:48):
working on it, some part of me,some part of my being stays in
it so I can get back into itmore easily.
I'm not having to sort of startfrom scratch.
I don't know how that translatesbeyond writing, but I bet you
do.
Paul (29:01):
I do.
I mean, as you're talking, I'mthinking of all the people out
there that are working out ordieting or having a difficult
conversation or whatever thatthing is right.
It's the daily practice of nojudgment, some nights you might
just read the script, and justbe like, that's enough.
I did it.
I stayed in touch with it.
I allowed it to happen.
(29:22):
And so many people often think,Oh gosh, I've got to give 30
minutes or 20 minutes.
What if it's one minute?
I did one sit up, one push up,or whatever the thing is, just
to stay in touch with it.
That's the story I heard youjust tell.
Tobin (29:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Paul (29:40):
What about feedback?
I can imagine you get feedbackfrom your agent, from
publishers, right?
From studio heads.
Often when feedback comes andwe're resistant, ego might get
in the way or instinctive, youdon't know what you're talking
about.
How do you balance that and staymotivated?
Tobin (29:56):
One of the things that I really learned in grad school is
how to take notes.
By which I mean take feedback.
It wasn't because there wasanyone who was particularly
cruel, but one of the thingsthat happened to us a lot when I
was in film school is that wewould bring work in and we would
be, I wouldn't say always tornapart, but people were very
(30:18):
harsh in their critiques.
They were trying to prepare usfor a world that wasn't coddling
us.
When we left, like mostbusinesses, I would think it's
real harsh, you know, there is asink or swim you there's,
there's a thick skin you need.
And I remember I had teachersthere, one particularly said,
you need to be more tough.
That's good feedback.
Thank you.
(30:39):
I say through the tears, youknow, and he wasn't saying like,
don't cry because we're allgoing to cry, but like, Take it
a little bit.
So what I learned to do is whatI, and who were the one time in
particular, I brought this moviein my final, my thesis film, I
bring it in and they bring inoutside people to watch our
movies.
Like I, one of the, I mean, Iwon't give away who, but like,
(31:01):
The people whose movies you havegrown up with are in this room
to watch your movies along withanybody from the school who
wants to come.
You didn't give it away.
My father in law was visiting,like, it was Big, right?
And so I'm sitting there, and Ishow the movie, and I go to sit
down in the front of the movietheater with my notepad in front
(31:21):
of these people who are thepanelists, and they destroy me.
They don't like anything aboutthis movie that I have spent
years, money, like it's a bigdeal.
It's like the thing I'm leavingschool with.
But this point I'd had a fewyears of it.
I'm writing in my notebook, AndI'm not really writing what
they're saying.
I'm just saying F you, F you.
(31:42):
I hate you.
I hate this.
This is too, but it looks likeI'm just taking notes.
I'm just nodding and takingnotes.
Then I go back, and then I cry.
And then I think, what are theysaying underneath what they're
saying?
They don't like what'shappening.
We call it in sometimes, writerswe call it, what's the note
under the note?
The thing they can't articulate.
They're trying to give me allthe answers.
(32:03):
It should be this, it should bethat.
What, what are they notconnecting with in the thing
that I've made?
And so I made a bunch of changesto the movie, and I brought it
back.
There's one person from thatoriginal panel, and two or three
new people.
And I loved it.
It won a faculty award at anumber of awards at the film
festival.
It was like a, and it played, itscreened at more than 40 film
festivals around the world.
(32:24):
But the thing that I had learnedis, two things, don't get
defensive and start defendingthe thing when people are giving
you feedback.
They're responding fromthemselves.
They're probably, maybe they hada bad day.
Maybe they're in the middle of adivorce.
You don't know what's going onwith them as they're giving you
feedback on the thing thatyou've got.
So certain amount of is going toget filtered out by, yeah,
you're just, that's just you.
(32:45):
That's just your opinion.
You don't say that though.
You just take the notes and say,I think you're in the middle of
a divorce.
If not, you should be, you'relike, you're arguing back with a
pan of nobody looking at you or,you know, without them, without
them hearing it.
And then it's looking for whatthey're really saying underneath
it.
Because in my business.
We all get feedback all thetime.
(33:06):
We're all being told no, almostno one gets to make the thing
exactly the way they want tomake it.
And if you are, if you, thebetter you get at the, you know,
at choosing your collaboratorsand choosing the people you work
with, the better the feedbackis, the more you can understand
it, but still you have to putit.
You have to look for whatthey're really saying underneath
(33:26):
it.
Can I have one more story?
I can tell one more story.
It's just a great.
I
Paul (33:29):
mean, there's so many parallels here.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, absolutely.
Tobin (33:34):
It was another time, a number of years ago.
still doing the sort of apply tocompetitions and things and I
won a best dramatic moviescreenplay Award in order to get
the money I had to do certainrewrites to the script for the
company and they sent me themost condescending And this
(33:59):
wasn't even like they were goingto make the movie.
It's just literally to get mythousand dollar prize money or
whatever.
The most condescending list ofthings, like they were telling
me how to write.
I'd been doing it for 15 yearsat this point.
It wasn't like, I mean, longerbefore I even count before, like
when I was a kid, like I waswriting screenplays for a long
time and I had had stuff made.
I mean, it wasn't, I wasn't newto this, you know, it was so
(34:22):
condescending.
And at first I called mymanager, I was like, I'm not
even going to do this.
It's not worth the thousanddollars to me to do this.
And she's like, okay, that'sfine.
Take a breath.
Look at it again the next day.
I looked at it again the nextday and it still pissed me off.
What I did is I imported into,into, you know, Word or
whatever, my computer, and Iwrote a new, I erased their
(34:44):
opening, and wrote,Congratulations, we love this
script so much.
We, we chose it as the top ofour, we give you this big award,
we think it's fantastic.
And then, I rewrite their notes,So that all the content is the
same, but the tone is better.
And then I end with, Thank youagain so much.
If you don't do anything withthis, that's fine.
But we really see a future forit.
(35:05):
You know, can't wait to talk toyou more about it.
And so then the next day I readthat.
I was like, oh, that's nice.
What a nice set of notes thatthey have.
That's a trick I've used.
I have for sure used other timestoo.
When you get notes from peopleto just rewrite the opening.
So that it builds you up alittle bit, makes you feel
confident.
To then sort of take thesuggestions that they have.
Paul (35:26):
What I love about what you've said here is when
feedback comes, the words thatcome at you are less important
than the note underneath thenote.
I love that.
And then the other piece is whenyou do get negative feedback
written or whatever.
Maybe rewrite it, right?
I mean, God, now we have chatGPT, take this and make it
(35:46):
positive, and then see what youcould do with it.
Tobin (35:49):
Sometimes that allows you to see what the note under the
note, because if you're in yourfeelings, you can't always,
right?
If you're feeling combative, youcan't see what they're really
saying.
You're just seeing the attack.
And if you rewrite it, then youcan determine, is that a really
good idea or is that just comingfrom their feelings?
Paul (36:05):
So we've got a lot of listeners who are struggling
with different things in theirlife, right?
They're at a dead end, orthey're confused about
something, or they don't knowhow to move forward, or they're
in the wrong career, you're awriter.
How do you write them out oftheir scenario into a new one?
Tobin (36:23):
That's such a great question.
What I would do for both theperson and the character.
is go back before we're at theroadblock.
I'd go back a ways in their lifeand figure out what they want.
The big question we askourselves in making characters
(36:43):
is always, what does thecharacter want?
What does the character want?
What's the thing that's drivingthem deep inside the lizard
brain, right?
What is the thing that theytruly, truly want as a
character?
Because whether we acknowledgeit or not, every interaction we
have In life is about us tryingto trying to get something and
(37:03):
that can be as simple asapproval.
It can be, you know, trying toget a raise.
It could be trying to find apartner.
It could be whatever it is wherewe are driven by, by desires, by
needs, by.
And so I think that.
For me, anyway, when I have,when I meet people who are
stuck, when I am stuck, when I'mwriting characters who are
(37:25):
stuck, going back to origins,going back to what is it they're
really after?
What is the path that they wereon that maybe they've, maybe
they took the wrong path.
Maybe it's like my script.
You go back to the beginning ofthat story.
Where would I be if I werereally following what I wanted?
What's really, what's reallyimportant to me underneath.
We, we don't live very long,really.
(37:49):
We don't get to do, we don't getto do a lot.
So, is what you're doing todaysomething that you're going to
look back on in, 10 years?
If we're lucky 20, 30 years andsay that was satisfying this led
me to like that was a good useof that time It may be that what
(38:09):
you need that day is to sit inyour pajamas and have ice cream
and that truly may be it i'm notsaying people need to be
productive all the time But whatwhat are you pursuing right now?
And if what you're pursuingisn't something that's going to
matter Maybe you should bepursuing something else.
Maybe the want is somethingdifferent for you
Paul (38:26):
So interesting.
Oh, so interesting.
Write us into your future.
Tell us what's next.
Tobin (38:36):
What's next for me?
Paul (38:37):
I know what just happened, and I won't say unless you say.
Tobin (38:41):
I can't, I can't, I can't say.
Things are, things are too, Ican't say specifically, but I
will say, but I will say, thereare a variety of opportunities
arriving for me that I have madefor myself.
that take me to a differentladder.
The difference now, in terms ofhow I feel about them, compared
to how I would have felt aboutthem five, ten years ago, is I
(39:04):
don't feel like this is the onlynew ladder to jump to.
If the thing that, you know, asbigger projects, as I begin to
embark on bigger projects,Bigger companies with bigger
people involved.
I am now at a place where if thething that's on the horizon
falls through, there are threeother things that I am in the
(39:25):
works on right now that willmove me to a different ladder
right now.
And ask me tomorrow, but rightnow I'm feeling at a place
where.
I really like the things thatare coming my way, bigger
projects, it's not going to ruinme if it falls apart tomorrow
because there are three or fourother big things that I have
generated entirely by myselfthat I could step right into.
Paul (39:47):
Let me ask you on that.
Is your character so mature intheir story that they have
written these ladders intoexistence or is your character
so brave in the telling of theirstory that they've written these
ladders into existence?
Is this an age dependent,experience dependent thing?
Tobin (40:08):
I think maybe for me it is because I'm an experiential
learner.
I kind of have to go through.
Enough of a thing.
I've been able to, moreauthentically write characters
who are close, who, throughwhose experience or age I have
moved through.
(40:29):
And so I feel like for me thebravery has come with time and
with work and with age.
Paul (40:37):
Interesting.
What question didn't
Tobin (40:38):
I have friends who were super brave when they were 22,
who've had a lot of success, youknow, and they just have a
different, it's a differentpath.
And they're encountering thesethings in different ways and ups
and downs and whatever.
My path just moved, my pathmoved this way and I'm really
glad that it did.
Paul (40:55):
Yeah.
So Tobin, what question didn't Iask you that you would like to
answer?
Tobin (41:02):
Boy, good question that I would like to answer.
Yeah, that's tough.
I mean, as, as often when wetalk, your questions are are
excellent and deep and move inways.
I don't expect the question thatone often gets as a writer is
where ideas come from.
(41:23):
I don't know that it's a super.
Interesting question,necessarily, and maybe that's
just because, you know, I am awriter and maybe the question,
maybe the question that I wouldlike to answer is how to feel
okay at the top of the ladderwhen you don't know where the
next ladder is.
(41:44):
Because what's really scary isnot knowing, for me, and it can
be paralyzing to have come tothe end of a ladder and be
standing there and you don'tknow where gravity is and you're
at the top of a really tallladder and like, are you going
to fall?
Are you going to fall off theladder and like, die?
(42:06):
And that's a really hard placeto be.
And I think it's important toacknowledge that for people who
are at that position it's scary.
It's really scary.
Paul (42:15):
Yeah.
Tobin (42:16):
And the thing that ultimately helps me through that
is, I think something we'vetalked about along the way is,
so what happens if you fall?
What's the worst that happens?
In the situation we're talkingabout, if you fall, will you
catch yourself three rungs downand climb back up?
Will you fly?
Paul (42:33):
Through this conversation, you've told me you maybe close
your eyes and take a step backand just let the ladder sway for
a while.
You don't have to look upanymore.
You told me that I was alwaysused to looking left, but now
I'm going to look right and seeif there's another ladder over
here.
You told me that in the, in theconversation today.
And then the trust, the knowingof, you know what?
(42:55):
I've climbed all those rungs.
I'm still going to climb.
I just don't know where it'sgoing to be.
But sitting in the knowing ofthat's what's coming next for
you.
Before we close, is there anyquestion you'd like to ask me?
Tobin (43:08):
I'm curious how you, you've alluded to this somewhat
in our conversation.
Okay.
But I know that a lot of thepeople that you work with, maybe
I just assume this, aren'tnecessarily in creative fields
or fields that we think of astraditionally creative.
And I'm wondering, I guess partof it is, why me?
(43:30):
I'm wondering what, I'm hopingthere's been value to people who
are in less creative fields.
traditionally creative careersand what made you think that
this would be useful?
Paul (43:43):
Tobin, what you had to say today and what you do is so
parallel to people's situationsin terms of pivoting and being
at a dead end or needing to lookaround the corner when they
can't see it.
And because you writecharacters, you almost write the
human story of existence, butyou write it in different
(44:03):
genres.
And so just to listen to youtalk today, if people.
You know, if they didn't get itthe first time, if they listen
again, you have so many lifelessons and so many ways in
which people can relate to theircircumstance tangentially that
is applicable to them.
And as I was thinking of people,I'm like, well, the power of the
(44:25):
pivot, of course it's Tobinbecause it's what he does all
the time with characters and hewrites and there's genres and
feedback and I mean, youexperience everything everybody
else experiences in business.
You just experience it in adifferent car.
That makes sense.
Tobin (44:42):
Yeah, I mean, I've had to become more business savvy as my
career has grown.
So I am kind of fascinated byit.
And I draw.
from, different ways of thinkingabout how to make things.
And we're all making things oneway or another and how things
are organized and made in a moresort of business sense.
(45:05):
It does make sense and I hopeit's.
You
Paul (45:09):
know, there's all these leaders out there that are, were
an army general that have noexperience in civilian world,
right?
Or Lance Armstrong, the athleteor pick an athlete who are
writing leadership books.
And what's interesting is it'sall the lessons and experiences
we have about.
Making a pivot and, rewritingour narrative and, giving and
receiving feedback.
(45:29):
All the things we all go throughas human beings, you do it as a
writer.
And so maybe a leadership bookon from a writer's perspective
would be a bestseller becauseyou've got all the skills and
tools.
You do it for your characters.
So I just think it'sfascinating.
(45:50):
I can't thank you enough foryour time.
I know you're busy writing, butI couldn't think of a better
guest to have on when we talkabout the power of the pivot,
because that's what you do.
Tobin (46:02):
Well, I'm a big fan of yours and I really appreciate
any opportunity that I have to,to chat with you is, uh, is one
I'll take for sure.
Paul (46:09):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay.
Wow.
What a great conversation.
Thank you so much for joining uson this episode of Courageous
Conversations.
I hope you found today'sdiscussion as inspiring and
thought provoking as I did.
And a special thank you to ourguest Tobin Addington for
(46:30):
sharing his journey andinsights.
If you've enjoyed this episode,don't forget to subscribe, leave
a review, or share it withsomeone who could benefit from
this conversation.
We've got another exciting guestlined up in our next episode, so
make sure to tune in as youdon't want to miss it.
Until then, stay curious, staycourageous, and keep the
conversations in your lifeflowing.
Welcome to Courageous Conversations, where we explore
the transformative pivotsleaders make in their careers.
But today I'm flipping thescript.
We often think about leadershippivots as those defining moments
that forced leaders to changedirection, adapt, or grow.
But what about writers?
How are their pivots similar tobusiness professionals?
(00:26):
Our guest today, TobinAddington, is not just a
brilliant writer, but someonewho has had to pivot countless
times throughout his career,stirring his writing and
characters through unexpectedchallenges.
In this episode, we'll dive deepinto how a writer leads the
narrative of their own career,Just as a leader does with their
teams.
I'm curious, how will today'sepisode push you to rewrite your
(00:48):
story?
All right, let's dive in.
Tobin, welcome to CourageousConversations.
Tobin (00:58):
Thanks.
It's great to be here.
Paul (00:59):
I really wanted to talk to you on the topic today of the
pivot of leadership, becauseoften we think of the pivot of
leadership or thosetransformational moments or
experiences that leaders havethat require them to pivot.
But because you are anintellectual that I really enjoy
engaging with, And you're awriter.
I thought how interesting itwould be to talk about a pivot
(01:22):
related to writing becauseyou've had to pivot throughout
your entire career in differentways as the leader of your
writing.
And so let's dive in.
What are you the product of?
Tobin (01:34):
Like most people, I'm the product of a lot of things.
Mostly I'm the product ofstories.
I think that we all as humanbeings are nothing more than a
accumulation of stories, storieswe're told, stories we tell
about ourselves.
It's the way we make sense of achaotic world.
It's a way we make sense of goodthings that happened to us and
(01:55):
bad things that happened to ustrying to create some sort of
order.
And so I think of myself as aproduct of stories, stories
about my past stories, but myfamily stories that I have just
attached myself to that comefrom other or more deeper
places.
And I think it's probably why Ido what I do.
Paul (02:13):
Interesting.
Would you just start us off witha favorite story about you?
Something that was maybeunexpected?
What's a favorite story?
Tobin (02:23):
You know, it's funny.
The first thing that comes tomind when you say that, when I
think about what I'm a productof, I think about the first
story that I remember reallyenveloping me as a kid that I
would play, most kids doimaginative play, you imagine
your characters, you imagineyour, whatever, whatever the
sort of thing you're growing upin.
When I was six years old.
(02:45):
I saw on cable TV, because thisis before there were VHSs, you
couldn't watch movies wheneveryou wanted them.
You had to catch stuff when itcame up on TV, if it wasn't new
in the theater.
And I saw a movie from 1939,blew my mind.
It was a story I was familiarwith, but told in a new way.
It was the Errol Flynn RobinHood, the Michael Curtiz
(03:06):
Technicolor Robin Hood movie.
And something about that movie,seeing this dashing, daring
noble guy who stood up againstcorruption and for the little
guy and something about andsword fighting just.
Electrified me to the point thatI got myself some green.
(03:28):
Tights and I got a sword and Igot a hat and I got the bow and
arrow with the suction, thickcups on the front and would run
around the woods behind ourhouse for hours playing Robin
Hood.
I would check the TV guide everyweek to see when it was going to
air again, twice a year, itshowed up on TBS or whatever.
And so it's two stories.
One story is the story of thisguy who finds a way to use his
(03:52):
skills to stand up for peoplewho can't stand up for
themselves.
and a story of me finding storyas a way to express something
inside me that I couldn'totherwise express, having to do
with feeling powerful andrunning around the woods as a
six, seven, eight, nine year oldkid.
Paul (04:12):
You know, that is such an interesting observation of we
relate to the story that's infront of us, but also the story
that it tells to us.
Tobin (04:21):
Mm Yeah, definitely.
Paul (04:22):
And then there was the story that your parents saw
manifesting in yourinterpretation of the story,
right?
Tobin (04:28):
Absolutely.
Absolutely right.
You're, you are generating yourown story as you live.
And people around you aretelling a version of that story
that they see from theirperspective.
Paul (04:38):
When you are writing a story and your character
experiences a need for a pivot,how do you know how to make that
pivot as a writer?
Like, how do you know whichdirection to go?
Because this parallels reallife.
People are like, well, shitshould I go do this or that?
Take this job or that job,right?
How do you make the decision forthe character?
Tobin (04:58):
It's really tricky.
We writers spend a lot of timecomplaining to each other or
moping with each other orbanging your heads together to
figure this out, either in ourown stories or, working in
teams.
There are so many things thatcome up when you're crafting a
story, when you're writing astory that will force you to
change the direction that thestory goes.
(05:19):
It could be external, someoneyou're writing something for
gives you a note and says.
You have to change this thing,or you have to find a new way to
do it, or you find yourself,you've written yourself into a
corner, and you are stuck, andyou can't the path that you were
on is no longer available toyou.
It doesn't, it does, it's notproviding any more sustenance to
you.
And you have to find a new wayto move forward the way that I
(05:42):
have over time found my waythrough that after you sort of
bang your forehead against thekeyboard and tell it bleeds.
And sometimes just come to theterms with the fact that you
have to pivot that you can't,that it's fruitless to keep
going the way you thought youwere supposed to go, then it's a
matter of.
For me.
Quieting myself until the path Ishould go on reveals itself,
(06:07):
which might mean taking a stepaway from the thing I'm working
on and not working on it for awhile, for days, for weeks.
It might mean increasing mymeditation.
It might mean more exercise,something break the pattern that
I was in that had me locked intothe direction that I was going
so that the new path.
shows itself.
I mean, people talk about thisall the time.
(06:27):
You're in the shower and thegreat idea comes.
You're on a run and the greatidea comes.
You're on a swim and the greatidea comes.
So I have to always remindmyself in those moments to go do
those things to allow thatdoorway to open that I hadn't
seen, that I wasn't able to seebefore.
Paul (06:44):
It's so interesting to hear you talk about how when
you're blocked with a character,you need to put the character
down, put the story of thecharacter down and walk away and
break from the narrative thatyou're creating.
And I wonder, for leaderslistening, they get stuck and
they know they're stuck andthey're both the writer and the
(07:06):
character, right?
And the way they, yeah, what Iheard you say is take a break,
step away, go swimming.
That's how you do it when you'recreating the narrative.
Tobin (07:17):
Yeah, that's right.
Getting out of my own way is myway often to find a way forward.
And sometimes we don't have alot of time to do that.
And I'm sure this crossesindustries, obviously, that time
is you don't always have a weekto go not work on a thing.
So sometimes it has to be fast.
If I allow my subconscious thespace to work on the issue that
(07:38):
I'm on to find that new to dothe bushwhacking to find the new
trail for myself, it can do itquickly.
It might only need to be a walk.
It might need to be a goodnight's sleep.
It doesn't have to be long butsometimes not standing in front
of the problem.
allows the problem to resolveitself a little more easily, or
you do find a new way around it,I think.
Paul (07:59):
Give us a real example of that with a character that was,
you were like, we're so stuck.
I wrote the wrong story.
Tobin (08:07):
Absolutely.
I was working on a movieproject, a number of years ago.
I have on my walls in my office,I have cards up and I have all
the sort of I've planned out theway I think the story is going
to go.
The way that I write is often byblue skying at first.
And then because I'm writing forfilm and TV, I write scenes on
note cards.
(08:27):
I put those notes, cards up onthe wall and I can move them
around and see the movie takingshape.
Paul (08:31):
Like a vision.
Tobin (08:33):
Like a vision.
Exactly, exactly.
I had all the note cards up, Iwas writing my way through the
story, and I had a character whoI thought was the main character
of the story, who was pushingthe story all the way through,
and I got like halfway into thescript, so I was 50 some pages
into a 110 page movie, and hehad a complete story.
(08:56):
brick wall.
It felt like the scenes that Iwas writing for that character
were artificial.
They were, I was writing whatwas on the cards, what felt
right on the wall, what the planwas there, but it didn't feel
true.
It didn't feel it wasn't gettingme the kind of the juice that I
needed out of the story.
(09:18):
It's hard to explain, but I was,I was, I could have just sat
there and kept writing terriblescenes and finished what was on
the wall.
But what I realized was I wasfollowing the wrong character.
I had the wrong main characterin the story.
It was the wrong point of view.
And when we talk about, writingin characters in film and TV, we
(09:39):
talk about the character havingan arc.
Very often the character changesover time and the thing they
wouldn't do in the first sceneof the movie, they are forced to
do by the end or choose to do insome kind of new way.
The character that I had chosen.
Had nowhere to go.
They started good and theystayed good the whole time and
there was no, they had nogrowth.
They had no change.
So as I came to the second halfof the story, when the stakes
(10:01):
were supposed to get higher andeverything's supposed to get
more difficult, they werewaltzing through it because they
had no growth.
And so what I had to do whenthis was a humbling experience,
you have to rethink the storyand write it from a different
character's point of view.
So it became a differentcharacter story and that meant
rewriting everything that I'dhad, but once I found that this
(10:24):
secondary character, that hadmore farther to go, that once I
identified the issue that I hadwith that character, then I was
able to write through the restof the, I mean, I put new cards
on the wall.
I did the whole thing overagain.
But that's what it ended upbeing a point of view, a
perspective thing.
In that case, that was anextreme case.
It's often not quite so extreme,but that was one way, one way
through it.
The way I figured that out was Istepped away from that for a
(10:47):
while.
It was a couple of weeks.
I was like, I don't know what todo.
I'm never going to finish thisthing.
It's terrible.
I'm terrible.
The world is terrible, and I hadother jobs, so I had the luxury
of not having to do it in thatcompressed time period, and a
couple weeks later, I realized,oh, I was doing some kind of
exercise it's like, oh, maybeit's a different character's
story.
They're more interesting anyway.
And it was like, ah, there itis.
I figured out what it is.
Paul (11:08):
That whole example reminds me of so many people are stuck
in careers where there's nostory arc.
They're in their thirties,forties.
They want something different intheir life, right?
And you said, you know what?
I realized I needed to rewritethe story.
And there's so many parallels towhat you said about what people
faced in a leadership pivot andhow you write for characters.
(11:32):
I think the one thing I'mcurious about for you, yeah.
How did you know writing wasyour thing?
Tobin (11:39):
Looking back on it, I think I, I knew it before I knew
it.
We've talked about the storybefore, but, I was in second
grade.
So I was, it was not long afterI found Robin Hood and I was
seven, whatever.
And I'm in second grade and wehad to write, we had spelling
words each week.
You had 10 words you had tolearn how to spell.
(11:59):
And each week, one of theassignments was to write those
words into sentences.
So you knew how to use them incontext.
So I wrote my, no one suggestedthis.
I just, Because I was a littlebored, maybe, with writing
random sentences, I wrote myspelling words into sentences
that were a story and theteacher, my second grade
teacher, Mrs.
(12:20):
Simmons, read my story to theclass that week.
She didn't tell me she was goingto do this.
We all sat down.
She said, I wanted to show youthis.
She read this story.
And as I have learned toappreciate since then, it's the
first time someone really, itfelt like I was really being
seen.
It's the first time people wereseeing me, not just who I was
(12:40):
the good student or, my mom'sthe kindergarten teacher, all
the things that you're knownfor, but really truly inside
that I was a storyteller that Ihad stories in, even if it's
about this little dog thatcaptivated people.
And so in retrospect, I thinkthat's when it really, even
without me intellectuallyknowing it, because I wrote
stories from then on.
(13:01):
I mean, short stories, thenplays, then found movies and
never looked back and neverreally questioned it.
But I think that's the momentwhen it really happened.
Paul (13:09):
You know, you say you've never questioned it.
And I think that's the one thingI am amazed by in you is that
you write like you're runningout of time to quote Hamilton.
And, there are times in people'scareers where they feel seen and
they're like, ah, this is thething.
But then winter comes andthere's a quiet space by which
that recognition doesn't happenor accolades don't come or how
(13:32):
have you maintained the fire allthese years?
I don't understand it.
Tobin (13:37):
It's a great question.
And it's hard for me toarticulate because I don't fully
understand myself.
It's as primal to me as, I don'tthink I could not do it in one
form or another.
I've gone for long stretches oftime and not received, accolades
or, financial gain from it.
(13:58):
It's not that kind ofcalculation, for me, but I can't
not do it.
There was a time I had a healthissue where I couldn't, for a
variety of reasons, couldn'twatch movies.
I, visually, had a hard timesort of being able to process
visual information in the normalway without feeling ill and
things.
And so I couldn't, it was hardto work on movies at that time
(14:22):
because I was like not able tointeract with them in the same
way.
And it was a scary time and apretty discouraging time.
What I could do was listen toaudiobooks.
And eventually I could read.
I couldn't watch movies, but Icould read with one eye.
And so I started writing novels.
Not particularly with a thoughtto them being sold just because
I needed to write something andthere are stories in me that are
(14:45):
desperate to come out.
I just needed a way to uncorkthat, to exercise that.
and so for about a year.
I didn't write a scene of amovie or TV show, which I had
not done.
I've for what 30 years now.
At that point for 20 some years.
And so I found this other way ofgetting a story out that I could
(15:08):
do.
Not for accolades.
They're in a drawer, you know,they're just in a drawer.
But it's almost, it's likebreathing, it's therapy.
It's a thing I just can't notdo.
If I were, I imagine if I, whenI was, before I met Robin Hood,
I wanted to be a dentist becausemy great uncle was a dentist.
If I had become a dentist, Ithink I would still write.
Paul (15:27):
So when you meet people, do you write the story as you're
meeting them?
Are you like, Oh, this is thebackstory of that person.
Or do you just take it at facevalue?
Tobin (15:41):
I think a lot about writing now.
It's not a thing I do just forfun.
By accident, I've thought aboutthe craft a lot, so when I meet
people or I'm at a dinner partyor, go to, the kids, open house
at school and meeting people,I'm not thinking about it as a
scene or as a character as I'mthere, but what I'm trying to do
is absorb as much of it as Ican, dialogue, the way people
(16:03):
are dressed, the way people talkto each other, the way they
look, the best stuff That Iwrite will have some sort of
source in an experience thatI've had I was writing this
horror movie.
Not long ago.
And there's this dinner scenewhere this couple met this guy.
And at first he seems a littlescary and then he's kind of
charming.
And by the end of the dinner, hedoes something like completely
(16:23):
nails on the chalkboard to 1character.
I've been at dinners like thatwith people that I didn't know
at first.
And you're like.
Trying to gauge what they'relike and are you a threat?
Are you not?
And the stakes are heightened inthe movie.
It's all, we're doing it fordrama.
But those feelings underneathare feelings that in retrospect,
I have experienced at similardinner parties.
(16:43):
So not thinking aboutnecessarily at the time, but
often in retrospect, I'm miningmy past experience for.
The material.
Paul (16:51):
So basically everybody's game.
Tobin (16:54):
Yes.
If you know a writer, you areyour prey.
Yes.
Paul (16:58):
Okay.
Much like leaders stepping intonew roles.
How do you decide when it's timeto leave a genre or a format or
subject behind and explore newterritory specifically?
I'm thinking genre or formatbecause I know you have made
some pivots, you're on.
The own network with a couple ofChristmas movies now, right?
(17:19):
And that wasn't a genre that youwere tapped into a few years
ago.
Tobin (17:24):
No, no, that is interesting.
Yes.
The tricky thing about, Iimagine most careers, but my
experience is mostly in thearts, is that There's no path
laid out for you.
I think maybe this is just aperson who likes order, I, grew
up thinking, oh, I assume acareer is a ladder, right?
(17:46):
You climb rung to rung to rung,and the next step is in front of
you and it's a meritocracy.
And if you do this part well,you'll be rewarded with the next
step and off you go.
And at some point.
I think most people, for me,certainly, you find that you run
out of rungs on the ladder andyou're like, well, there's a
ladder there.
There's a rope over there.
There's a, and I got to jump tosomething else.
What do I do?
(18:07):
And I think that for a lot ofus, maybe we stand at that point
in the ladder for a while andlook around for.
Paralyzed in fear or whateverabout knowing what to do.
For me, the Christmas movie, soI mostly write mysteries and
thrillers.
That's the genre that I'm mostaccustomed to a lot of
investigations, anything with aninvestigation in it, I'm like,
I'm there.
(18:28):
When the opportunity came up, towrite a Christmas movie.
I hadn't sold anything in awhile, nothing that I had
written, for a long time, sinceanything had been fully
produced, that was just minethat I'd written entirely
myself.
And so I was at a bit of a endof a rung of a ladder, not
thinking, gosh, maybe I'm notgoing to write anymore, but more
(18:49):
like, what do I do next thatwill put me on a new ladder that
will put me in a new path.
And it was, just suggested tome, Hey, they make a lot of
Christmas movies.
Is maybe there's something inthat genre that you could write.
And when I began, the way thatthe pivot happened there for me
is rather than thinking, Oh,these are cheesy movies that, I
(19:12):
don't usually deal with.
They're not usually the genre Iwould seek out.
I thought back to, in the 1930sand 40s, the people who wrote
monster movies for Universal orwho wrote,, gangster movies by
the dozen for Warner Brothers,like all these old studio guys
who would sit in their littleBungalow and, on the studio lot
and just churn out these genremovies that some of which we now
(19:35):
look back on and say, wow,that's a classic.
Casablanca is one of thosemovies.
By the director of Robin hoodwhen I thought about it that
way, what's the challenge inthis for me?
Could I find a new way?
How can you twist within theformula a little bit to make
something fresh?
Can I twist the formula of aChristmas movie enough so that
I'm interested in it?
I'll be darned, the first one Iwrote sold and was shot within
(19:59):
two years of me writing it?
I've done two since then.
That's a remarkable amount ofstuff produced in a short period
of time for someone in myprofession, unless you're super,
super famous.
Now I'm at a place where I likethat ladder.
That ladder is fun, but thereare new challenges that I'm also
eyeing at the same time, andfinding the new way to make that
(20:20):
next pivot by choice, more thanpivot by I'm stuck and I need to
find a new way but it was partof it was humbling myself at the
top of that ladder to go do agenre that I would not normally
have pursued and I will admit atthe time felt a little sheepish
About doing, which is not fairto the genre or the people who
(20:42):
like it, but it's justnaturally,, I came out of film
school as like a snobby filmkid, right?
So it's finding sort of yourselfin all of these, in all of the
constellation of all thesethings, as you build the story
of your career, of your life, ofwhatever it is.
Paul (20:57):
How do you balance staying true to your creative voice
while responding to the changingdemands of the world?
We've moved away from cable.
We've gone to streaming rightnow.
It's moving from, HBO and thosetwo internet.
Tobin (21:13):
What's wild is we're reinventing cable right now
because streaming services areadding ads And they want you to
take the cheaper ad tier becausethey get money from the
commercials so we're justreinventing cable, but yeah, it
is it's a great questionEspecially right now in my
industry, there's a lot ofupheaval.
We've gone through a COVID wherepeople weren't going to movies
(21:34):
through a big strike where weweren't producing anything.
We weren't writing anything tothen a contraction of my
industry where there are fewerthings being made.
It's a tricky time right now inour business.
And what I've found that I, it'swhat the challenge for me is to
understand that that's happeningand accept that there's some
(21:55):
fear and anxiety on my part.
Because just naturally there arefewer places to sell the things
that I, my wares don't sell asmany places anymore because
there aren't as many buyers.
There are still people who wantstories and as long as there are
people who want stories thereare people who will listen to me
(22:16):
because I found that I canprovide something that not a lot
of people can and In fact, I canprovide something nobody else
can which is the stories I tellIt doesn't mean that they will
sell.
It doesn't mean that they'll besuper successful, but it is
acknowledging the fact thatthere are things I can do that
(22:36):
nobody else can do.
And I think that when, for meanyway, when I realized that,
when I really truly realizedthat it freed me up to
understand that there is amarketplace.
And I'm not gonna writesomething right now that you
could do that could never, everbe made, or, I'm not just
putting a middle finger up to anindustry.
(22:57):
But I'm going to try and find away to write the things that to
say no to things that maybewould be good to do, like from
a, if your plot, your careerkind of thing, but that aren't a
thing that just I can do.
And so finding that confidencehas allowed me to keep so far,
not going to blood to keep trueto that sense of creativity that
(23:18):
I tell stories that just I cantell, and then.
Allow for the fact that somethings will hit and some things
won't.
But if I try and be fake aboutit, that's a for sure way to go
nowhere.
Either into jobs I would beterrible at, or things that have
no return at all.
Paul (23:34):
I don't know, it's a confidence game.
Tell me, tell me, when was thatpivotal moment?
When did that awakening occurwhere you were like, Oh my God,
Tobin (23:41):
it occurred for me, it occurred in stages.
There were steps toward it.
The first time I had a scriptwin a giant contest, like a big,
big prize.
Paul (23:51):
When you were in New Jersey.
Tobin (23:52):
We were living in Brooklyn.
Yep.
And I was teaching in NewJersey.
We don't say we lived in NewJersey.
Paul (23:56):
Sorry.
I didn't, did I say lived?
I should have said worked.
You're right.
Tobin (24:00):
You lived in Brooklyn.
Sorry, New Jersey.
We'll say the same thing.
Everybody's got their, theirpride of where they were.
That's good.
Okay.
Good, good call.
Good call.
So I won this big prize and.
I remember writing, the peoplewho had who gave out this prize
to the organization had anewsletter they sent out and
(24:20):
they wanted me to write a columnfor it, having won the grand
prize at this best of 5, 000scripts or whatever.
And I remember the thing I wrotewas, you have to write stories
only you can tell.
So intellectually, I knew that.
You know, I could articulatethat 15 years ago, but I didn't
really feel it.
(24:42):
I wasn't living it, because Iwas still trying to find stories
that would do something specificfor me as in business or
whatever, it was a little, I wasjumping from ladder to ladder,
you know, just with a little bitof a flail to it, and I was
really concerned about whatpeople were going to think when
it was done, so it wasn't untilworking with a coach and looking
(25:02):
really deeply into why I do whatI do, Recognizing that I can
offer things that truly nobodyelse can.
And letting go of needing toprove anything to anybody.
Now, I say that as though it'sjust gone.
It's not just gone.
That comes back, I fight it allthe time.
(25:23):
But I know what it feels like tonot give a crap.
To write a thing that's like,well this I'm just writing.
It's coming out of me.
I can identify where it meanssomething to me.
And so I'm going to express itin a way that frees myself a
little bit from.
Expectations of people'sperceptions of me of the story
(25:45):
of whatever and so the more I'vedone it the easier it has become
and the less pressure I feel interms of the outside world's
approval Interestingly the morethe outside world approves it
has allowed me more success It'sopened more doors.
There are things happening in mycareer now that are really
(26:08):
exciting That only have comeabout because I am practicing
owning the fact that I havestories to tell and ways to tell
them that nobody else has.
Paul (26:19):
Authenticity, right?
So, let me ask you about that.
You get the idea, it's pouringout of you, how do you stay in
that moment?
Cause it takes, what, a coupleweeks to write a story?
Maybe a month.
How do you keep the flow going?
Tobin (26:37):
It's a great question.
For those of us who write moviesand TV, I mean, the last script
I had the idea for a year and ahalf ago, you start writing it,
it can take months.
Sometimes with the Christmasmovies, it's a much more, it's a
quicker turnaround.
That is sometimes weeks, whichis crazy.
So the trick is.
For me, on the longer durationthings, like when it is going to
(27:01):
take months, there are twothings that I have learned over
time.
One is I used to wait forinspiration to strike.
Used to be like, and there's astory of, that I've always
remembered that I think is true,of Tom Waits.
The musician talking aboutwriting songs and for years he
thought he was wait forinspiration and there's a window
(27:22):
that would open it would only beopen a certain amount and then
it would close and if he eithergot the thing or he didn't and
the story is he's driving acrossTexas or something and as the
window opens in the sky and asong is coming out and the way
the story goes he shakes hisfinger at the sky and says I'm
busy come back later And it did.
(27:43):
The window opened later.
And the way he describes thisis, he realized it was a
practice.
It was a partnership.
Him and his muse.
It wasn't a divine inspirationthat you either grab or you
don't.
That with a certain openingyourself to it, you can be in
conversation with theinspiration that you have.
So understanding that, andunderstanding that was the first
(28:05):
thing.
The other thing for me is, WhenI'm trying to stay in a thing,
and it is tricky, you're right,because there is, even though I
practice opening and closing thewindow, like, you do want to
catch the thing in as muchtotality as you can.
The trick for me is to, and Iforget, some teacher I had along
the way put it this way, theysaid, touch it every day.
(28:27):
You don't have to write a lot,even if it's just, right before
you go to bed, for me, writing astory, I call up my outline and
just read it one more time.
Or re read that scene, or listento the piece of music.
While I'm driving to work thatday, that Reminds me of how this
is supposed to feel.
And if I touch the story, evenon days when I'm not actively
(28:48):
working on it, some part of me,some part of my being stays in
it so I can get back into itmore easily.
I'm not having to sort of startfrom scratch.
I don't know how that translatesbeyond writing, but I bet you
do.
Paul (29:01):
I do.
I mean, as you're talking, I'mthinking of all the people out
there that are working out ordieting or having a difficult
conversation or whatever thatthing is right.
It's the daily practice of nojudgment, some nights you might
just read the script, and justbe like, that's enough.
I did it.
I stayed in touch with it.
I allowed it to happen.
(29:22):
And so many people often think,Oh gosh, I've got to give 30
minutes or 20 minutes.
What if it's one minute?
I did one sit up, one push up,or whatever the thing is, just
to stay in touch with it.
That's the story I heard youjust tell.
Tobin (29:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Paul (29:40):
What about feedback?
I can imagine you get feedbackfrom your agent, from
publishers, right?
From studio heads.
Often when feedback comes andwe're resistant, ego might get
in the way or instinctive, youdon't know what you're talking
about.
How do you balance that and staymotivated?
Tobin (29:56):
One of the things that I really learned in grad school is
how to take notes.
By which I mean take feedback.
It wasn't because there wasanyone who was particularly
cruel, but one of the thingsthat happened to us a lot when I
was in film school is that wewould bring work in and we would
be, I wouldn't say always tornapart, but people were very
(30:18):
harsh in their critiques.
They were trying to prepare usfor a world that wasn't coddling
us.
When we left, like mostbusinesses, I would think it's
real harsh, you know, there is asink or swim you there's,
there's a thick skin you need.
And I remember I had teachersthere, one particularly said,
you need to be more tough.
That's good feedback.
Thank you.
(30:39):
I say through the tears, youknow, and he wasn't saying like,
don't cry because we're allgoing to cry, but like, Take it
a little bit.
So what I learned to do is whatI, and who were the one time in
particular, I brought this moviein my final, my thesis film, I
bring it in and they bring inoutside people to watch our
movies.
Like I, one of the, I mean, Iwon't give away who, but like,
(31:01):
The people whose movies you havegrown up with are in this room
to watch your movies along withanybody from the school who
wants to come.
You didn't give it away.
My father in law was visiting,like, it was Big, right?
And so I'm sitting there, and Ishow the movie, and I go to sit
down in the front of the movietheater with my notepad in front
(31:21):
of these people who are thepanelists, and they destroy me.
They don't like anything aboutthis movie that I have spent
years, money, like it's a bigdeal.
It's like the thing I'm leavingschool with.
But this point I'd had a fewyears of it.
I'm writing in my notebook, AndI'm not really writing what
they're saying.
I'm just saying F you, F you.
(31:42):
I hate you.
I hate this.
This is too, but it looks likeI'm just taking notes.
I'm just nodding and takingnotes.
Then I go back, and then I cry.
And then I think, what are theysaying underneath what they're
saying?
They don't like what'shappening.
We call it in sometimes, writerswe call it, what's the note
under the note?
The thing they can't articulate.
They're trying to give me allthe answers.
(32:03):
It should be this, it should bethat.
What, what are they notconnecting with in the thing
that I've made?
And so I made a bunch of changesto the movie, and I brought it
back.
There's one person from thatoriginal panel, and two or three
new people.
And I loved it.
It won a faculty award at anumber of awards at the film
festival.
It was like a, and it played, itscreened at more than 40 film
festivals around the world.
(32:24):
But the thing that I had learnedis, two things, don't get
defensive and start defendingthe thing when people are giving
you feedback.
They're responding fromthemselves.
They're probably, maybe they hada bad day.
Maybe they're in the middle of adivorce.
You don't know what's going onwith them as they're giving you
feedback on the thing thatyou've got.
So certain amount of is going toget filtered out by, yeah,
you're just, that's just you.
(32:45):
That's just your opinion.
You don't say that though.
You just take the notes and say,I think you're in the middle of
a divorce.
If not, you should be, you'relike, you're arguing back with a
pan of nobody looking at you or,you know, without them, without
them hearing it.
And then it's looking for whatthey're really saying underneath
it.
Because in my business.
We all get feedback all thetime.
(33:06):
We're all being told no, almostno one gets to make the thing
exactly the way they want tomake it.
And if you are, if you, thebetter you get at the, you know,
at choosing your collaboratorsand choosing the people you work
with, the better the feedbackis, the more you can understand
it, but still you have to putit.
You have to look for whatthey're really saying underneath
(33:26):
it.
Can I have one more story?
I can tell one more story.
It's just a great.
I
Paul (33:29):
mean, there's so many parallels here.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, absolutely.
Tobin (33:34):
It was another time, a number of years ago.
still doing the sort of apply tocompetitions and things and I
won a best dramatic moviescreenplay Award in order to get
the money I had to do certainrewrites to the script for the
company and they sent me themost condescending And this
(33:59):
wasn't even like they were goingto make the movie.
It's just literally to get mythousand dollar prize money or
whatever.
The most condescending list ofthings, like they were telling
me how to write.
I'd been doing it for 15 yearsat this point.
It wasn't like, I mean, longerbefore I even count before, like
when I was a kid, like I waswriting screenplays for a long
time and I had had stuff made.
I mean, it wasn't, I wasn't newto this, you know, it was so
(34:22):
condescending.
And at first I called mymanager, I was like, I'm not
even going to do this.
It's not worth the thousanddollars to me to do this.
And she's like, okay, that'sfine.
Take a breath.
Look at it again the next day.
I looked at it again the nextday and it still pissed me off.
What I did is I imported into,into, you know, Word or
whatever, my computer, and Iwrote a new, I erased their
(34:44):
opening, and wrote,Congratulations, we love this
script so much.
We, we chose it as the top ofour, we give you this big award,
we think it's fantastic.
And then, I rewrite their notes,So that all the content is the
same, but the tone is better.
And then I end with, Thank youagain so much.
If you don't do anything withthis, that's fine.
But we really see a future forit.
(35:05):
You know, can't wait to talk toyou more about it.
And so then the next day I readthat.
I was like, oh, that's nice.
What a nice set of notes thatthey have.
That's a trick I've used.
I have for sure used other timestoo.
When you get notes from peopleto just rewrite the opening.
So that it builds you up alittle bit, makes you feel
confident.
To then sort of take thesuggestions that they have.
Paul (35:26):
What I love about what you've said here is when
feedback comes, the words thatcome at you are less important
than the note underneath thenote.
I love that.
And then the other piece is whenyou do get negative feedback
written or whatever.
Maybe rewrite it, right?
I mean, God, now we have chatGPT, take this and make it
(35:46):
positive, and then see what youcould do with it.
Tobin (35:49):
Sometimes that allows you to see what the note under the
note, because if you're in yourfeelings, you can't always,
right?
If you're feeling combative, youcan't see what they're really
saying.
You're just seeing the attack.
And if you rewrite it, then youcan determine, is that a really
good idea or is that just comingfrom their feelings?
Paul (36:05):
So we've got a lot of listeners who are struggling
with different things in theirlife, right?
They're at a dead end, orthey're confused about
something, or they don't knowhow to move forward, or they're
in the wrong career, you're awriter.
How do you write them out oftheir scenario into a new one?
Tobin (36:23):
That's such a great question.
What I would do for both theperson and the character.
is go back before we're at theroadblock.
I'd go back a ways in their lifeand figure out what they want.
The big question we askourselves in making characters
(36:43):
is always, what does thecharacter want?
What does the character want?
What's the thing that's drivingthem deep inside the lizard
brain, right?
What is the thing that theytruly, truly want as a
character?
Because whether we acknowledgeit or not, every interaction we
have In life is about us tryingto trying to get something and
(37:03):
that can be as simple asapproval.
It can be, you know, trying toget a raise.
It could be trying to find apartner.
It could be whatever it is wherewe are driven by, by desires, by
needs, by.
And so I think that.
For me, anyway, when I have,when I meet people who are
stuck, when I am stuck, when I'mwriting characters who are
(37:25):
stuck, going back to origins,going back to what is it they're
really after?
What is the path that they wereon that maybe they've, maybe
they took the wrong path.
Maybe it's like my script.
You go back to the beginning ofthat story.
Where would I be if I werereally following what I wanted?
What's really, what's reallyimportant to me underneath.
We, we don't live very long,really.
(37:49):
We don't get to do, we don't getto do a lot.
So, is what you're doing todaysomething that you're going to
look back on in, 10 years?
If we're lucky 20, 30 years andsay that was satisfying this led
me to like that was a good useof that time It may be that what
(38:09):
you need that day is to sit inyour pajamas and have ice cream
and that truly may be it i'm notsaying people need to be
productive all the time But whatwhat are you pursuing right now?
And if what you're pursuingisn't something that's going to
matter Maybe you should bepursuing something else.
Maybe the want is somethingdifferent for you
Paul (38:26):
So interesting.
Oh, so interesting.
Write us into your future.
Tell us what's next.
Tobin (38:36):
What's next for me?
Paul (38:37):
I know what just happened, and I won't say unless you say.
Tobin (38:41):
I can't, I can't, I can't say.
Things are, things are too, Ican't say specifically, but I
will say, but I will say, thereare a variety of opportunities
arriving for me that I have madefor myself.
that take me to a differentladder.
The difference now, in terms ofhow I feel about them, compared
to how I would have felt aboutthem five, ten years ago, is I
(39:04):
don't feel like this is the onlynew ladder to jump to.
If the thing that, you know, asbigger projects, as I begin to
embark on bigger projects,Bigger companies with bigger
people involved.
I am now at a place where if thething that's on the horizon
falls through, there are threeother things that I am in the
(39:25):
works on right now that willmove me to a different ladder
right now.
And ask me tomorrow, but rightnow I'm feeling at a place
where.
I really like the things thatare coming my way, bigger
projects, it's not going to ruinme if it falls apart tomorrow
because there are three or fourother big things that I have
generated entirely by myselfthat I could step right into.
Paul (39:47):
Let me ask you on that.
Is your character so mature intheir story that they have
written these ladders intoexistence or is your character
so brave in the telling of theirstory that they've written these
ladders into existence?
Is this an age dependent,experience dependent thing?
Tobin (40:08):
I think maybe for me it is because I'm an experiential
learner.
I kind of have to go through.
Enough of a thing.
I've been able to, moreauthentically write characters
who are close, who, throughwhose experience or age I have
moved through.
(40:29):
And so I feel like for me thebravery has come with time and
with work and with age.
Paul (40:37):
Interesting.
What question didn't
Tobin (40:38):
I have friends who were super brave when they were 22,
who've had a lot of success, youknow, and they just have a
different, it's a differentpath.
And they're encountering thesethings in different ways and ups
and downs and whatever.
My path just moved, my pathmoved this way and I'm really
glad that it did.
Paul (40:55):
Yeah.
So Tobin, what question didn't Iask you that you would like to
answer?
Tobin (41:02):
Boy, good question that I would like to answer.
Yeah, that's tough.
I mean, as, as often when wetalk, your questions are are
excellent and deep and move inways.
I don't expect the question thatone often gets as a writer is
where ideas come from.
(41:23):
I don't know that it's a super.
Interesting question,necessarily, and maybe that's
just because, you know, I am awriter and maybe the question,
maybe the question that I wouldlike to answer is how to feel
okay at the top of the ladderwhen you don't know where the
next ladder is.
(41:44):
Because what's really scary isnot knowing, for me, and it can
be paralyzing to have come tothe end of a ladder and be
standing there and you don'tknow where gravity is and you're
at the top of a really tallladder and like, are you going
to fall?
Are you going to fall off theladder and like, die?
(42:06):
And that's a really hard placeto be.
And I think it's important toacknowledge that for people who
are at that position it's scary.
It's really scary.
Paul (42:15):
Yeah.
Tobin (42:16):
And the thing that ultimately helps me through that
is, I think something we'vetalked about along the way is,
so what happens if you fall?
What's the worst that happens?
In the situation we're talkingabout, if you fall, will you
catch yourself three rungs downand climb back up?
Will you fly?
Paul (42:33):
Through this conversation, you've told me you maybe close
your eyes and take a step backand just let the ladder sway for
a while.
You don't have to look upanymore.
You told me that I was alwaysused to looking left, but now
I'm going to look right and seeif there's another ladder over
here.
You told me that in the, in theconversation today.
And then the trust, the knowingof, you know what?
(42:55):
I've climbed all those rungs.
I'm still going to climb.
I just don't know where it'sgoing to be.
But sitting in the knowing ofthat's what's coming next for
you.
Before we close, is there anyquestion you'd like to ask me?
Tobin (43:08):
I'm curious how you, you've alluded to this somewhat
in our conversation.
Okay.
But I know that a lot of thepeople that you work with, maybe
I just assume this, aren'tnecessarily in creative fields
or fields that we think of astraditionally creative.
And I'm wondering, I guess partof it is, why me?
(43:30):
I'm wondering what, I'm hopingthere's been value to people who
are in less creative fields.
traditionally creative careersand what made you think that
this would be useful?
Paul (43:43):
Tobin, what you had to say today and what you do is so
parallel to people's situationsin terms of pivoting and being
at a dead end or needing to lookaround the corner when they
can't see it.
And because you writecharacters, you almost write the
human story of existence, butyou write it in different
(44:03):
genres.
And so just to listen to youtalk today, if people.
You know, if they didn't get itthe first time, if they listen
again, you have so many lifelessons and so many ways in
which people can relate to theircircumstance tangentially that
is applicable to them.
And as I was thinking of people,I'm like, well, the power of the
(44:25):
pivot, of course it's Tobinbecause it's what he does all
the time with characters and hewrites and there's genres and
feedback and I mean, youexperience everything everybody
else experiences in business.
You just experience it in adifferent car.
That makes sense.
Tobin (44:42):
Yeah, I mean, I've had to become more business savvy as my
career has grown.
So I am kind of fascinated byit.
And I draw.
from, different ways of thinkingabout how to make things.
And we're all making things oneway or another and how things
are organized and made in a moresort of business sense.
(45:05):
It does make sense and I hopeit's.
You
Paul (45:09):
know, there's all these leaders out there that are, were
an army general that have noexperience in civilian world,
right?
Or Lance Armstrong, the athleteor pick an athlete who are
writing leadership books.
And what's interesting is it'sall the lessons and experiences
we have about.
Making a pivot and, rewritingour narrative and, giving and
receiving feedback.
(45:29):
All the things we all go throughas human beings, you do it as a
writer.
And so maybe a leadership bookon from a writer's perspective
would be a bestseller becauseyou've got all the skills and
tools.
You do it for your characters.
So I just think it'sfascinating.
(45:50):
I can't thank you enough foryour time.
I know you're busy writing, butI couldn't think of a better
guest to have on when we talkabout the power of the pivot,
because that's what you do.
Tobin (46:02):
Well, I'm a big fan of yours and I really appreciate
any opportunity that I have to,to chat with you is, uh, is one
I'll take for sure.
Paul (46:09):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay.
Wow.
What a great conversation.
Thank you so much for joining uson this episode of Courageous
Conversations.
I hope you found today'sdiscussion as inspiring and
thought provoking as I did.
And a special thank you to ourguest Tobin Addington for
(46:30):
sharing his journey andinsights.
If you've enjoyed this episode,don't forget to subscribe, leave
a review, or share it withsomeone who could benefit from
this conversation.
We've got another exciting guestlined up in our next episode, so
make sure to tune in as youdon't want to miss it.
Until then, stay curious, staycourageous, and keep the
conversations in your lifeflowing.
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