April 16, 2025 • 31 mins
What happens when a high-achieving perfectionist discovers that alcohol simultaneously soothes and sabotages her life? Chris Janssen, USA Today bestselling author of "Grace Yourself," takes us on her remarkable journey from teenage drinking to sustained sobriety, an unexpected relapse, and ultimately, profound redemption.
Janssen's story begins at fourteen, when she discovered alcohol's ability to quiet her relentless perfectionism. The temporary relief it provided became a crutch that followed her through college, marriage, and motherhood. "Alcohol made me feel okay," she reveals. "I could relax and not overthink everything." Yet this solution gradually became her primary problem.
The conversation takes a surprising turn as Janssen shares how, after fourteen years of continuous sobriety, a perfect storm of circumstances—pandemic isolation, empty nest syndrome, and relocating to a new state—led her to question her alcoholic identity. Her raw honesty about this relapse offers listeners rare insight into the persistent nature of addiction. "I learned that I had evolved and grown and changed," she explains, "but alcohol had not."
What distinguishes this episode is Janssen's powerful perspective on why sharing recovery stories matters: "Some of us recover loudly in hopes of preventing others from dying quietly." This philosophy infuses her work as an author and life coach, where she helps others trapped by perfectionism and negative thought patterns find freedom.
Perhaps most compelling is Jansen's redefinition of sobriety not as deprivation but as authenticity and joy. "Sobriety is fun because I feel good," she insists. "I can be the life of the party, stay late, and remember everything the next day." Her experience challenges listeners to consider where in their lives the pain of staying the same might have become greater than the pain of changing.
Ready to break free from perfectionism, shame, or addictive patterns? This conversation offers practical wisdom for showing up authentically for the life you truly want.
https://www.amazon.com/Grace-Yourself-Show-Sober-Life/dp/1637633378
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tonya Shellnutt (00:10):
Welcome back to Courageous Overcomers, where we
rise above fear, trauma and thepast, bound together by faith,
grit and bold truth.
I'm your host, tonya Shellnutt,and today's episode is one you
do not want to miss.
and today's episode is one youdo not want to miss.
If you have ever battled shame,hidden your pain behind a smile
or wondered if God could stilluse a high-achieving
(00:32):
perfectionist, this conversationis for you.
Today, I'm honored to sit downwith Chris Janssen.
She's a USA Today NationalBest-Selling Author of Grace
Yourself.
But more than the accolades orbook sales, what makes Chris
remarkable is her journey.
She's a recovering alcoholicwho once lived buried in fear,
(00:54):
running from her past andnumbing her pain, but today she
stands fully seen, fully knownand fully redeemed.
One of my favorite quotes inher book and we're going to come
back to this, but I want totease it to you all is she says
some of us recover loudly inhopes of preventing others from
dying quietly, and that just hitme so hard.
(01:16):
And so grab your Diet Cokebecause I'm a Diet Coke girl or
coffee.
Pull up a chair and lean in,because we're about to hear what
you are going to tell us allabout Chris and your journey and
we're so excited.
So, welcome to the show and Ijust I'm.
I met Chris in October of lastyear and listener, you can't see
(01:38):
her, but when I met her she,just you just had this really
sweet, warm, authentic presenceabout you and I loved that and I
was like I've got to know thislady and so I'm so excited to
have read your book, learnedmore about you, have you on the
show to share with our listenersabout your journey, so I would
love for you to dive in andshare with us a little bit about
(02:01):
how you came to be an alcoholic.
Chris Janssen (02:05):
Oh, Tonya, thank you for having me.
You just made me tear up whenyou said that about the
authentic presence, because that, more than the bio or anything
that is really nice to hear tobe authentic and that is how I
felt that from you and theenergy I felt from you when we
(02:26):
first met.
So I'm grateful to know you andgrateful to be on your podcast.
Tonya Shellnutt (02:30):
Well, thank you .
We're honored and I know ourlisteners are in for an
incredible treat today.
So I've been highlighting allof April on addiction.
We had my husband on last weekand he's celebrating 34 years
and we've got you this week andwe've got another person next
(02:50):
week.
So I just really want people tohear that they're not alone.
I think that's one of themisconceptions and your quote
that you say you know it's justagain.
Some of us recover loudly inhopes of preventing others from
dying quietly.
Why don't you share with ouraudience what that meant, why
you said it and what does itmean to you?
Chris Janssen (03:13):
It means what you just said about sharing stories
, and I'll admit it's easier tobe more vulnerable.
The older I get, the less Icare what people think of me.
So I do have that going for methat I'm aging, but it you know
that of all the things I've donein my lifetime, I just turned
56 this week.
(03:34):
So to to give the thank you, togive the listeners an idea of
what I mean when I say mylifetime, of all the things I've
done therapy, coaching,recovery what works for me is
sharing stories, and when I amnot in a community of sober
people sharing stories, my egostarts to pump up.
(03:59):
I think my problem issignificant.
I feel like I'm the only onewho must have gone through this,
and not just addiction andalcohol, anything.
I'm the only one that has to dolaundry today or whatever.
Whatever it is Right, right.
And so that sharing of storiesis so important and I have
benefited I mean other peoplebeing vulnerable and sharing
(04:22):
their stories, whether it's inan anonymous support meeting,
whether it's one-on-one and I'mthe only person that's ever
going to hear it, or whetherit's for public consumption in a
book or a podcast or whateverit is.
It's benefited me and so it'smy responsibility to give back.
That's my belief.
I'm not putting that on otherpeople, but that really does.
That is what kept me going whenI was writing and I wanted to
(04:46):
quit, because it's embarrassingto share my story and it's
definitely not a glory project.
That's what keeps me going.
I'm a steward of my message andI believe I have a
responsibility to serve otherswith it by sharing, because
other people did that for me andsaved my life.
Tonya Shellnutt (05:05):
Yeah yeah, that is so true and it is something
that you know I have struggledgreatly with, like you were
saying, sharing our story.
It is embarrassing, there is alevel of shame, but it's, you
know, about putting purpose tothe pain so that others can hear
and others can be inspired tonot have to live in the pain.
(05:26):
And so I really can relate tothat, because there have been
many times where I'm like Idon't want to do this, I just I
don't, I was too afraid and Ididn't want people to know, you
know what would they think of me, and I still struggle with that
.
But then there are theoccasional emails or texts that
come in from listeners and say,hey, you know what, you helped
(05:48):
me this week or you inspired methis week, and even if it's just
one life at a time, it's thatwe've got to share it and put
purpose to our pain.
So let's talk a little bitabout this.
So you started drinking when youwere 14, right, Right and I
started drinking when I was insixth grade, so I think I was 12
(06:08):
.
Wow, and so you know, walk usthrough a little bit about you
know your drinking and how itescalated, and you know what was
that like.
Chris Janssen (06:20):
Right, it was really socially acceptable.
Right, it was really sociallyacceptable.
I mean, I know that soundsfunny as a 14 year old, and for
(06:41):
you as a 12 year old, it was Igrew up in, and I wasn't shamed,
I wasn't.
I have very loving parents.
Unconditional love was in myhome.
It wasn't perfect, right, noneof it is, but I say that because
I think it's important.
I have no idea if alcoholismruns in my family, because
nobody tested the theory, right,and so I know.
(07:04):
For me, though, I got to highschool and the kids were
drinking, right, there wasparties, and that was my first
drink and you know all thatyoung person, just it didn't
even feel like pressure, it justfelt like the norm to fit in,
right, that's just what we do.
So I had a beer at a party andwhat I remember I don't remember
(07:30):
a lot of the circumstancesaround it, but what I remember
distinctly about the first sipand all the sips after that is
the way it made me feel I livedas a child and young person, and
then, really, you know, youngwoman.
After that, I lived in my headI was a perfectionist.
(07:51):
I was a very rigid thinker, avery high achiever, put
impossible standards on myself,you know, for eating, looks,
athletics, and that's typical ofus, especially of young women,
in America at least.
So I was a typical teenager.
But what I remember is that thesip, the way, the alcohol, it
(08:16):
went right to my brain and ittook all that pressure off.
I just felt okay, I felt likehappy and I could be not
overthinking everything and Icould relax, and that was so.
It served me.
It's fair to say it reallyserved me.
And as I got older and became amarried person, a mom and all
(08:38):
that you know, I remember itreally helped me be hospitable.
Here I am a person, a woman offaith.
I'm in Bible study.
I'm being told I need to behospitable, be a good
entertainer All these thingswere taught from culture.
Okay, well, what if I'm notnaturally hospitable and I'm
(08:59):
totally stressed out because Ihave three tiny babies at home
and my husband works till nineevery night and how am I going
to be hospitable?
So it was just always a crutchfor me to be happier, be
hospitable, be less of a rigidthinker.
That's how it served me.
Right, took the edge off.
(09:19):
Right Took the edge off.
Yes, right.
Tonya Shellnutt (09:22):
So at what point did you realize that you?
You know my cause, so my storyis a little different.
I mean I was, I would drink andI mean I can relate to what
you're talking about, aboutimmediately, you know, going to
your brain and and taking thatat the edge off.
But I drank to oblivion, toblackout stage, I mean it was,
(09:43):
it was not pretty.
So what?
At what point in in this pathdid you realize that you might
have a problem?
What?
What transpired there?
Chris Janssen (09:54):
you realize that you might have a problem.
What transpired there?
I think in my gut I knew it wasa problem from the get-go from
14, because it did take the edgeoff and it was so temporary.
I had so many for that 20minutes of taking the edge off I
had so much guilt, hangovers.
Yeah, none of that seemed likeit was big enough to need to
(10:15):
quit because I was still pullingit off on the outside until age
probably until age 22, I'll say.
I'm guessing is after Igraduated college and I'm out in
the real world, drinking's notfunny anymore, because in
college it was I mean,unfortunately it was kind of
(10:37):
funny to you know and so itwasn't acceptable to be drinking
that much anymore and I wasstarting to I haven't met my
husband quite yet, I'm trying toget established in a career and
then I knew, oh, this is yucky,this isn't I am.
I black out, I'm blacking out,I'm vomiting.
(10:59):
I don't remember the next day,but still, I didn't know, I
didn't know anyone whoidentified as alcoholic, or I
didn't know what to do.
Right, I still.
I just I'm an achiever, so I'mgoing to get my goals.
So I'm just going to keeptrying harder to fit in because
we did.
It was different back then forus, for you and I.
(11:21):
We didn't like.
Nowadays you can be alcoholfree, or you can be sober for
health reasons, or you can sayno, and it's not the biggest
deal in the world, right, likepeople.
You know, my husband will havea non-alcoholic beer at dinner,
no big deal.
But back then it was like whyaren't you drinking?
Are you prepping for surgery?
Are you pregnant?
(11:41):
What's going on?
And so you know, and maybe Iwas more swayed to what people
think of me than the next person, but that was my story.
So, and as you know, as theharder we try to to moderate our
drinking and be a successful,dignified drinker, the the worse
(12:03):
it gets, because it's aprogressive condition that just
gets worse over time and withage.
So it was not good.
Tonya Shellnutt (12:11):
You had another quote in your book and it ties
in with this.
It says so society preachesmoderation, but where does it
leave those of us who can'tmoderate?
I love that.
I was like, oh yes, for real.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthat.
Tell our listeners what you'releaning from that.
Chris Janssen (12:29):
Oh, that's what I want people to know.
Oh, that's what I want peopleto know.
If someone doesn't know that,you are not alone because we yes
, they preach moderation.
We're supposed to kind of be adignified drinker, right?
We see commercials, posters,whatever it is, in media and in
(12:49):
real life of people usingalcohol to have a nice time.
Well, what if you're like me?
That alcohol makes me vomit,blackout, do terrible things and
miss out on my life.
So you know, until I knewbetter which, until I got in
recovery and met more peoplelike me, I thought I was the
(13:16):
problem.
I didn't understand.
Alcohol was the problem becauseit's addictive and I was
playing with it and trying tomoderate it, and that was
impossible for someone like me.
Tonya Shellnutt (13:24):
Yeah, absolutely, and I mean because I
love the flavor.
I love a good cold beer.
I would love to have one, butthe thing is is that I know I
can't just have one.
And I, you know, even thoughI've been sober 30 years, I
never, for whatever reason, byGod's grace, I never had a
(13:45):
desire to to go.
Well, am I really an alcoholic?
Right Like?
Question it, because I justloved the alcohol.
But you went on a little journey, you got sober for a while and
then you started drinking again.
So share with our listenersabout that, because I think
(14:06):
there are a lot of people thatquestion in their head.
Well, am I really like?
For example, when I went totreatment, I was going to
treatment to learn how to be asocial drinker.
That's what they were going toteach me how to do it, as I was
going to be like this is likeyou said.
I was going to be a gooddrinker, right, a good girl that
could drink.
But I went there and they'relike oh, actually you're way
(14:29):
sicker than you think.
And so I quickly realized, ohwait, I can't do that.
So share with our listeners alittle bit about what that
pathway was for you.
Chris Janssen (14:38):
Well, it was something I never thought would
happen to me.
Right In recovery, we heardon't stop going to meetings.
If you move, make sure you getplugged into sober community all
these safety nets.
I just didn't think it wouldhappen to me.
I'll call it a relapse.
(14:58):
I really had a hard time withthe word relapse at first,
because I thought are weforgetting how far I've come?
All this self-work right, and Istill don't know what I call it
In the book?
I call it a drinking curiousexperiment, right and so, but it
was a relapse.
I was sober almost 14 years,and I invited alcohol
(15:19):
consciously back into my lifeagain.
It didn't work out.
I'm definitely sober again.
What led to that, though, wasit was these aren't excuses.
This is the perfect storm thatled to it, though.
I had a great community, sobercommunity and in 2020, it was a
pandemic, and we were on Zoom,and I moved.
(15:39):
My husband and I were brand newempty nesters, which is a
transition in itself.
We moved to a new town.
I'd never left the state ofCalifornia I mean, I had for
travel, but I'd never livedoutside.
We just thought we're verypositive, high adventure, we
love variety.
We thought let's move.
It's pandemic, let's move toanother state.
(16:00):
And we moved to a new state andI just think I was in over my
head.
New state, all new friends,brand new empty nester, pandemic
, quarantine.
And then, on top of it, I did goto get plugged in and the doors
were actually locked at themeeting I went to.
(16:21):
It was 12 step meeting in myhometown and it just wasn't a
populated meeting.
And that day no one showed up,especially the person that was
supposed to unlock the door, andso my brain started playing
those tricks on me that we hearabout.
Maybe that's a sign, right?
I don't really believe.
I tried hard enough to find adifferent meaning.
And what was really funny aboutthat is I had just published my
(16:45):
first book.
I had a thriving life coachingbusiness.
I'm a life coach and I was atthe top of my game like raise
these great kids, launched them.
Okay, now we can have some fun,we can relax, Like I took up
golf as a new sport, which is abig drinking sport.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I came to find out.
Chris Janssen (17:09):
So I just, I, I just kind of all that.
All that happened at once andmy thought was and this is all
in the book but my thought wasum, you know, I really don't
think I'm alcoholic.
I think it's funny.
Now I think I drank over allthese things that I've worked my
butt off to overcome, and I it.
(17:32):
You know, if God really didn'twant me, this was the big one.
If God really wanted me to staysober, the door would have been
unlocked, there would have beenpeople at the meeting, and this
was the big one.
I wouldn't.
After 14 years of never cravinga drink, now I'm craving a drink
again.
I was craving specifically amartini, like it was very
(17:53):
specific craving.
I wanted to suck on the oliveand have just a touch of the
vodka, right, and I hadn'tthought about that in almost 14
years.
So I thought, well, isn't thatthe fact that God is isn't
taking this craving away?
Isn't that a stronghold?
(18:14):
Like now, how do I have astronghold and I'm obsessing on
drinking, and you know, I'mobsessing on how to not drink,
but the craving's still there,isn't that?
Why did God bring the obsessionback?
And that was really confusingfor me, and so I thought the
only way to shut down thisthinking is to just try it.
(18:34):
Maybe.
I'm probably not alcoholic, andyou know what is great?
What I'd love the listener whois like us, like you and I, to
hear is that you don't need togo on that field trip to
discover that, if you know youhad a problem with alcohol, you
still have a problem withalcohol, and it's not you.
(18:54):
What I learned was I hadevolved and grown and changed,
and alcohol had not.
Tonya Shellnutt (19:01):
Right.
So I want to ask you about thatbecause you hear all the time.
You know in AA I spent quite afew years in AA myself and in
church, you know, celebrate,recovery, different programs or
whatever.
But you always hear about whenyou you know you drink and you
quit and then you pick up again.
You pick up right from whereyou left off, right?
(19:21):
So for me, if I were to drinktoday, I would pick up right
from where I left off, which wasdrinking to the blackout.
Was that?
Did that happen to you?
Can you share?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
with our listeners a little bit about that.
Chris Janssen (19:32):
Yeah, yes, I know they can't see me, but I'm
shaking my head yes, absolutelyyes, I picked up where I left
off and worse.
So I knew right away alcoholhasn't changed.
It's just as cunning, bafflingand powerful as it always was.
(19:53):
The tricky thing is, though, Iwas really confused in my head,
and then I was.
I was thinking, oh well, I justneed to build my tolerance.
Obviously, I can't do it now.
I mean and I'm an achiever,right, I can get, get the goals
I go after.
So I just kept making thesegoals and trying harder, and, as
(20:14):
you know, the harder you try,the worse it gets.
And yeah, and it was.
I know for a fact that a lot ofwhat happened to me is all of
that shame and perfectionism andego, really from my first
(20:34):
sobriety.
That that I learned about whenI got into recovery the first
time.
It came flying back, becausenow, as a perfectionist, I've
stained my perfect sober streak,right.
I went into sobriety and Inever had another day, one.
I was like I got sober, I wentto recovery my first meeting.
(20:55):
I never had a drink again untilthis relapse or this experiment
, and so I was super hung up onoh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed I
can't go to a meeting becausenow I have to tell them I'm on
day one and I had all theseyears of sobriety and so I
really do that.
(21:15):
I got to work on my pride andmy ego and I tried all kinds of
other things before I went backto AA and AA.
You know I'm very clear in thebook I'm for all recovery
programs.
It's just that that's the onethat worked for me the first
time and I tried to get sober asecond time from all these other
(21:36):
things that had popped up thatI hadn't known about the first
time.
That was my only option in 2007when I got sober.
So now we have apps, we havebooks, we have all these other
programs.
I tried all of them.
I tried all the programs andnone of them.
They just got me reallyconfused.
A lot of them say, like you candrink if you want to.
(21:57):
You just won't want to.
After you read this book andlearn about the toxic effects of
alcohol, and I thought so Itried that.
You know well what happens onthe day.
I do want to.
Like I need to know without adoubt that I am an alcoholic and
it's like poison to me If I goout again I could die, and so I
wasn't getting that from theseother programs.
(22:18):
So I went through, I tried allthe things and then I went back
to AA, and that was my secondday one.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
And now.
Chris Janssen (22:29):
I'm back, I've been, I've been.
You know that's what got me.
That went great Cause.
Tonya Shellnutt (22:36):
I went back to that meeting.
Yeah, what happened when youwent back?
Chris Janssen (22:40):
I went back I said I'm Chris, I'm alcoholic.
I've been out running aroundtrying to pretend I'm not
alcoholic and I realized I havean issue with my pride.
I've been too embarrassed tocome back here and be on day one
and I need your help.
I'm on day one again, I needhelp, and I just stayed there.
I went to the early risersbecause I didn't have kids at
(23:02):
home anymore, so I didn't needto go to the 6.30 am meeting,
but I did because that was theone that had the most people in
it.
So I made sure I went to apopulated meeting every day, got
a sponsor, started the stepsagain and happy as a clam, you
started the steps again and,happy as a clam, you make
another comment in your book andit ties into this.
Tonya Shellnutt (23:22):
You say the pain of being the same becomes
greater than the pain ofchanging.
Share with us a little bitabout that, because I feel like
you've got to that point.
So share with the listenerswhat you mean by that.
Chris Janssen (23:34):
I mean some people call it hitting bottom or
I often refer to it as the painthreshold.
Right Bottoms, as you know,look really different.
For all of us.
That pain threshold's different, and so that's a nice way to
measure it.
When we really change as humanbeings and our human nature is
when the pain of staying thesame becomes greater than the
(23:58):
pain of changing, because therewill always be a cost, and so we
have to choose our hard.
It's hard to go back to AA andsay I'm on day one, and it's
embarrassing and it pricks at mypride and it's hard.
You know, you got to do allthis stuff again.
It's harder not to, becausethat would be a mess, I would
(24:20):
die.
I almost died on my last bottom, right before I got back.
Tonya Shellnutt (24:24):
So yeah, yeah, so so share with our listeners.
You know what is it aboutsobriety, that that that you
enjoy and that means somethingto you.
Chris Janssen (24:37):
Well, it's truly me.
I mean, I was born sober andit's the best way to be me and
to me.
I'm a very fun person.
I've learned over the years Ilove fun.
If something's not fun, Ireally don't want to do it.
So I try to make everything fun.
I have little tricks to makepaying bills fun.
(24:57):
If something's not fun, Ireally don't want to do it, so I
try to make everything fun.
I have little tricks to makepaying bills fun, or you know,
and it's just not fun to notsobriety to me is fun because I
feel good.
I'm a morning person.
I love to wake up early.
I can't do that if I'm drinking.
I love my memories, I love, Ilove going to parties and
laughing.
(25:17):
I'll be like the life of theparty.
I'll stay late, but if I'mdrinking I'm not.
I want to go to bed early.
I'm depressed, I can't be thelife of the party, I don't want
to stay there.
So for me and you know, and I dohave the, the benefit I can say
that because I did have so manyyears of continuous sobriety.
(25:39):
So really I learned all thosethings In sobriety.
I learned how fun life reallyis In sobriety.
I got sober when my kids werebabies, so they've never seen me
drunk, because the second thingthey were launched and luckily,
you know, I got myself back.
But I learned my most funmemories my being a mom, raising
(26:09):
kids, all you know, goingthrough challenges with the kids
, going through all kinds ofchallenges.
I got to do all that sober, andso when that, when I drank
again, I felt like I'd beenrobbed.
I felt like someone, my lifehas been stolen.
This sucks.
Sorry about that.
Yeah, you're good.
I thought this sucks and Ifiercely wanted my sobriety back
(26:32):
.
I just didn't know what to do.
I didn't know how to get itback, because it's such a tricky
conundrum, and so that is thatis why I started writing all
this down.
I was really just writing itfor myself, so I will wouldn't
forget again.
Tonya Shellnutt (26:49):
Yeah, um yeah, our listeners a little bit about
that.
Tell us about.
Tell them first off, a littlebit about your book, and I've
obviously given some reallygreat quotes.
I listened to it on audio books.
You can listen to it.
But tell them a little bitabout your book and where to get
it.
And then also, real quick, alittle bit about your coaching.
(27:13):
That you do, cause I think thatyou know we have people come to
the podcast and they'll be like, well, how did you get sober,
what did you do?
And you've got some of thosetools, so share with our
listeners how to find you andwhat the book's about.
Chris Janssen (27:27):
Yeah, the book's called Grace Yourself how to
Show Up for the Sober Life youWant, and to me that's the
opposite of brace yourself.
When I'm not sober, I'm justbracing myself for everything.
So it's grace yourself.
To me grace.
I'm a Christian.
So grace is unmerited favor byGod.
And when I'm, when I feel likeI'm in control of my worth, I
can't accept grace because I'msaying I'll tell you what I'm
(27:49):
worth and that's not gracebecause I need to accept it.
God, I don't get to choose howvaluable I am, god, god chooses.
And so that's why the book iscalled Grace Yourself the book.
The book is not just for peoplestruggling with alcohol.
It's for people struggling withcontrolling thoughts.
Maybe a recoveringperfectionist, how we, how we
(28:16):
get from feeling stuck tofeeling unstuck, and that could
be.
And then it does talk aboutaddictions and how that plays
into it.
But it could be biting yournails or you're addicted to just
kind of having negative thoughtpatterns, right, and so it's
full.
It's very interactive, it'sfull of my coaching tools.
But in order to present thosetools, I do go ahead and share
(28:39):
my story with alcohol addiction.
I present it in a way thathere's where I was stuck and
here's how you can take thesetools and apply it to anything
that's tripping you up, and sothat's the book.
My coaching is I'm not aaddiction expert or a sober
coach.
I'm a life coach.
(29:00):
I have a master's in counselingpsychology and I'm a board
certified coach, and I justhappened to have a story of
alcohol addiction, so I am anexpert at sharing my story.
But my coaching is really Icoach small businesses, people
in all different things.
My niche really over the years,has become high performers,
people that are high achievers.
(29:20):
Typically those are people whohire a life coach anyway.
But so that's a bit about mycoaching.
I love coaching and, yeah,everything's on my website,
chrisjanssencoachingcom.
Tonya Shellnutt (29:34):
That tells about my services and the books
dot com that tells about myservices and the books.
That's awesome.
Well, our time hasunfortunately come to an end.
There's so much more I want todive into.
You've got some a chapter onlabels.
I'm hoping maybe we can comeback in a later date and dig
into that, but if you have foundthis podcast today to be
(29:54):
helpful, I want to encourage youto go and leave us a five-star
review at Courageous Overcomersand share it.
Share it with someone who mightbe struggling with being a
perfectionist or struggling withalcohol, because the purpose of
this podcast is for people tosee that we can overcome.
We just have to lean into somecourage and work through some of
(30:17):
these issues, and so I hopeyou've been blessed today by our
guest Chris.
So, chris, thank you for beingwith us.
We appreciate you.
Chris Janssen (30:24):
Thanks, Tonya.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Thank you for joining us here on Courageous
Overcomers with Tonya Shellnutt.
Please remember to follow, likeand share this podcast.
To find out more about Tonya,go to her website at
tonyashellnutt.
com, or to ask a question aboutanything you've heard on today's
show.
Leave us a five-star review andyour message or email at tonya
at tonyashellnutt.
com.
(30:47):
Remember that'sS-H-E-L-L-N-U-T-T.
This podcast is produced by BobSlone Audio Productions.
Welcome back to Courageous Overcomers, where we
rise above fear, trauma and thepast, bound together by faith,
grit and bold truth.
I'm your host, tonya Shellnutt,and today's episode is one you
do not want to miss.
and today's episode is one youdo not want to miss.
If you have ever battled shame,hidden your pain behind a smile
or wondered if God could stilluse a high-achieving
(00:32):
perfectionist, this conversationis for you.
Today, I'm honored to sit downwith Chris Janssen.
She's a USA Today NationalBest-Selling Author of Grace
Yourself.
But more than the accolades orbook sales, what makes Chris
remarkable is her journey.
She's a recovering alcoholicwho once lived buried in fear,
(00:54):
running from her past andnumbing her pain, but today she
stands fully seen, fully knownand fully redeemed.
One of my favorite quotes inher book and we're going to come
back to this, but I want totease it to you all is she says
some of us recover loudly inhopes of preventing others from
dying quietly, and that just hitme so hard.
(01:16):
And so grab your Diet Cokebecause I'm a Diet Coke girl or
coffee.
Pull up a chair and lean in,because we're about to hear what
you are going to tell us allabout Chris and your journey and
we're so excited.
So, welcome to the show and Ijust I'm.
I met Chris in October of lastyear and listener, you can't see
(01:38):
her, but when I met her she,just you just had this really
sweet, warm, authentic presenceabout you and I loved that and I
was like I've got to know thislady and so I'm so excited to
have read your book, learnedmore about you, have you on the
show to share with our listenersabout your journey, so I would
love for you to dive in andshare with us a little bit about
(02:01):
how you came to be an alcoholic.
Chris Janssen (02:05):
Oh, Tonya, thank you for having me.
You just made me tear up whenyou said that about the
authentic presence, because that, more than the bio or anything
that is really nice to hear tobe authentic and that is how I
felt that from you and theenergy I felt from you when we
(02:26):
first met.
So I'm grateful to know you andgrateful to be on your podcast.
Tonya Shellnutt (02:30):
Well, thank you .
We're honored and I know ourlisteners are in for an
incredible treat today.
So I've been highlighting allof April on addiction.
We had my husband on last weekand he's celebrating 34 years
and we've got you this week andwe've got another person next
(02:50):
week.
So I just really want people tohear that they're not alone.
I think that's one of themisconceptions and your quote
that you say you know it's justagain.
Some of us recover loudly inhopes of preventing others from
dying quietly.
Why don't you share with ouraudience what that meant, why
you said it and what does itmean to you?
Chris Janssen (03:13):
It means what you just said about sharing stories
, and I'll admit it's easier tobe more vulnerable.
The older I get, the less Icare what people think of me.
So I do have that going for methat I'm aging, but it you know
that of all the things I've donein my lifetime, I just turned
56 this week.
(03:34):
So to to give the thank you, togive the listeners an idea of
what I mean when I say mylifetime, of all the things I've
done therapy, coaching,recovery what works for me is
sharing stories, and when I amnot in a community of sober
people sharing stories, my egostarts to pump up.
(03:59):
I think my problem issignificant.
I feel like I'm the only onewho must have gone through this,
and not just addiction andalcohol, anything.
I'm the only one that has to dolaundry today or whatever.
Whatever it is Right, right.
And so that sharing of storiesis so important and I have
benefited I mean other peoplebeing vulnerable and sharing
(04:22):
their stories, whether it's inan anonymous support meeting,
whether it's one-on-one and I'mthe only person that's ever
going to hear it, or whetherit's for public consumption in a
book or a podcast or whateverit is.
It's benefited me and so it'smy responsibility to give back.
That's my belief.
I'm not putting that on otherpeople, but that really does.
That is what kept me going whenI was writing and I wanted to
(04:46):
quit, because it's embarrassingto share my story and it's
definitely not a glory project.
That's what keeps me going.
I'm a steward of my message andI believe I have a
responsibility to serve otherswith it by sharing, because
other people did that for me andsaved my life.
Tonya Shellnutt (05:05):
Yeah yeah, that is so true and it is something
that you know I have struggledgreatly with, like you were
saying, sharing our story.
It is embarrassing, there is alevel of shame, but it's, you
know, about putting purpose tothe pain so that others can hear
and others can be inspired tonot have to live in the pain.
(05:26):
And so I really can relate tothat, because there have been
many times where I'm like Idon't want to do this, I just I
don't, I was too afraid and Ididn't want people to know, you
know what would they think of me, and I still struggle with that
.
But then there are theoccasional emails or texts that
come in from listeners and say,hey, you know what, you helped
(05:48):
me this week or you inspired methis week, and even if it's just
one life at a time, it's thatwe've got to share it and put
purpose to our pain.
So let's talk a little bitabout this.
So you started drinking when youwere 14, right, Right and I
started drinking when I was insixth grade, so I think I was 12
(06:08):
.
Wow, and so you know, walk usthrough a little bit about you
know your drinking and how itescalated, and you know what was
that like.
Chris Janssen (06:20):
Right, it was really socially acceptable.
Right, it was really sociallyacceptable.
I mean, I know that soundsfunny as a 14 year old, and for
(06:41):
you as a 12 year old, it was Igrew up in, and I wasn't shamed,
I wasn't.
I have very loving parents.
Unconditional love was in myhome.
It wasn't perfect, right, noneof it is, but I say that because
I think it's important.
I have no idea if alcoholismruns in my family, because
nobody tested the theory, right,and so I know.
(07:04):
For me, though, I got to highschool and the kids were
drinking, right, there wasparties, and that was my first
drink and you know all thatyoung person, just it didn't
even feel like pressure, it justfelt like the norm to fit in,
right, that's just what we do.
So I had a beer at a party andwhat I remember I don't remember
(07:30):
a lot of the circumstancesaround it, but what I remember
distinctly about the first sipand all the sips after that is
the way it made me feel I livedas a child and young person, and
then, really, you know, youngwoman.
After that, I lived in my headI was a perfectionist.
(07:51):
I was a very rigid thinker, avery high achiever, put
impossible standards on myself,you know, for eating, looks,
athletics, and that's typical ofus, especially of young women,
in America at least.
So I was a typical teenager.
But what I remember is that thesip, the way, the alcohol, it
(08:16):
went right to my brain and ittook all that pressure off.
I just felt okay, I felt likehappy and I could be not
overthinking everything and Icould relax, and that was so.
It served me.
It's fair to say it reallyserved me.
And as I got older and became amarried person, a mom and all
(08:38):
that you know, I remember itreally helped me be hospitable.
Here I am a person, a woman offaith.
I'm in Bible study.
I'm being told I need to behospitable, be a good
entertainer All these thingswere taught from culture.
Okay, well, what if I'm notnaturally hospitable and I'm
(08:59):
totally stressed out because Ihave three tiny babies at home
and my husband works till nineevery night and how am I going
to be hospitable?
So it was just always a crutchfor me to be happier, be
hospitable, be less of a rigidthinker.
That's how it served me.
Right, took the edge off.
(09:19):
Right Took the edge off.
Yes, right.
Tonya Shellnutt (09:22):
So at what point did you realize that you?
You know my cause, so my storyis a little different.
I mean I was, I would drink andI mean I can relate to what
you're talking about, aboutimmediately, you know, going to
your brain and and taking thatat the edge off.
But I drank to oblivion, toblackout stage, I mean it was,
(09:43):
it was not pretty.
So what?
At what point in in this pathdid you realize that you might
have a problem?
What?
What transpired there?
Chris Janssen (09:54):
you realize that you might have a problem.
What transpired there?
I think in my gut I knew it wasa problem from the get-go from
14, because it did take the edgeoff and it was so temporary.
I had so many for that 20minutes of taking the edge off I
had so much guilt, hangovers.
Yeah, none of that seemed likeit was big enough to need to
(10:15):
quit because I was still pullingit off on the outside until age
probably until age 22, I'll say.
I'm guessing is after Igraduated college and I'm out in
the real world, drinking's notfunny anymore, because in
college it was I mean,unfortunately it was kind of
(10:37):
funny to you know and so itwasn't acceptable to be drinking
that much anymore and I wasstarting to I haven't met my
husband quite yet, I'm trying toget established in a career and
then I knew, oh, this is yucky,this isn't I am.
I black out, I'm blacking out,I'm vomiting.
(10:59):
I don't remember the next day,but still, I didn't know, I
didn't know anyone whoidentified as alcoholic, or I
didn't know what to do.
Right, I still.
I just I'm an achiever, so I'mgoing to get my goals.
So I'm just going to keeptrying harder to fit in because
we did.
It was different back then forus, for you and I.
(11:21):
We didn't like.
Nowadays you can be alcoholfree, or you can be sober for
health reasons, or you can sayno, and it's not the biggest
deal in the world, right, likepeople.
You know, my husband will havea non-alcoholic beer at dinner,
no big deal.
But back then it was like whyaren't you drinking?
Are you prepping for surgery?
Are you pregnant?
(11:41):
What's going on?
And so you know, and maybe Iwas more swayed to what people
think of me than the next person, but that was my story.
So, and as you know, as theharder we try to to moderate our
drinking and be a successful,dignified drinker, the the worse
(12:03):
it gets, because it's aprogressive condition that just
gets worse over time and withage.
So it was not good.
Tonya Shellnutt (12:11):
You had another quote in your book and it ties
in with this.
It says so society preachesmoderation, but where does it
leave those of us who can'tmoderate?
I love that.
I was like, oh yes, for real.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthat.
Tell our listeners what you'releaning from that.
Chris Janssen (12:29):
Oh, that's what I want people to know.
Oh, that's what I want peopleto know.
If someone doesn't know that,you are not alone because we yes
, they preach moderation.
We're supposed to kind of be adignified drinker, right?
We see commercials, posters,whatever it is, in media and in
(12:49):
real life of people usingalcohol to have a nice time.
Well, what if you're like me?
That alcohol makes me vomit,blackout, do terrible things and
miss out on my life.
So you know, until I knewbetter which, until I got in
recovery and met more peoplelike me, I thought I was the
(13:16):
problem.
I didn't understand.
Alcohol was the problem becauseit's addictive and I was
playing with it and trying tomoderate it, and that was
impossible for someone like me.
Tonya Shellnutt (13:24):
Yeah, absolutely, and I mean because I
love the flavor.
I love a good cold beer.
I would love to have one, butthe thing is is that I know I
can't just have one.
And I, you know, even thoughI've been sober 30 years, I
never, for whatever reason, byGod's grace, I never had a
(13:45):
desire to to go.
Well, am I really an alcoholic?
Right Like?
Question it, because I justloved the alcohol.
But you went on a little journey, you got sober for a while and
then you started drinking again.
So share with our listenersabout that, because I think
(14:06):
there are a lot of people thatquestion in their head.
Well, am I really like?
For example, when I went totreatment, I was going to
treatment to learn how to be asocial drinker.
That's what they were going toteach me how to do it, as I was
going to be like this is likeyou said.
I was going to be a gooddrinker, right, a good girl that
could drink.
But I went there and they'relike oh, actually you're way
(14:29):
sicker than you think.
And so I quickly realized, ohwait, I can't do that.
So share with our listeners alittle bit about what that
pathway was for you.
Chris Janssen (14:38):
Well, it was something I never thought would
happen to me.
Right In recovery, we heardon't stop going to meetings.
If you move, make sure you getplugged into sober community all
these safety nets.
I just didn't think it wouldhappen to me.
I'll call it a relapse.
(14:58):
I really had a hard time withthe word relapse at first,
because I thought are weforgetting how far I've come?
All this self-work right, and Istill don't know what I call it
In the book?
I call it a drinking curiousexperiment, right and so, but it
was a relapse.
I was sober almost 14 years,and I invited alcohol
(15:19):
consciously back into my lifeagain.
It didn't work out.
I'm definitely sober again.
What led to that, though, wasit was these aren't excuses.
This is the perfect storm thatled to it, though.
I had a great community, sobercommunity and in 2020, it was a
pandemic, and we were on Zoom,and I moved.
(15:39):
My husband and I were brand newempty nesters, which is a
transition in itself.
We moved to a new town.
I'd never left the state ofCalifornia I mean, I had for
travel, but I'd never livedoutside.
We just thought we're verypositive, high adventure, we
love variety.
We thought let's move.
It's pandemic, let's move toanother state.
(16:00):
And we moved to a new state andI just think I was in over my
head.
New state, all new friends,brand new empty nester, pandemic
, quarantine.
And then, on top of it, I did goto get plugged in and the doors
were actually locked at themeeting I went to.
(16:21):
It was 12 step meeting in myhometown and it just wasn't a
populated meeting.
And that day no one showed up,especially the person that was
supposed to unlock the door, andso my brain started playing
those tricks on me that we hearabout.
Maybe that's a sign, right?
I don't really believe.
I tried hard enough to find adifferent meaning.
And what was really funny aboutthat is I had just published my
(16:45):
first book.
I had a thriving life coachingbusiness.
I'm a life coach and I was atthe top of my game like raise
these great kids, launched them.
Okay, now we can have some fun,we can relax, Like I took up
golf as a new sport, which is abig drinking sport.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I came to find out.
Chris Janssen (17:09):
So I just, I, I just kind of all that.
All that happened at once andmy thought was and this is all
in the book but my thought wasum, you know, I really don't
think I'm alcoholic.
I think it's funny.
Now I think I drank over allthese things that I've worked my
butt off to overcome, and I it.
(17:32):
You know, if God really didn'twant me, this was the big one.
If God really wanted me to staysober, the door would have been
unlocked, there would have beenpeople at the meeting, and this
was the big one.
I wouldn't.
After 14 years of never cravinga drink, now I'm craving a drink
again.
I was craving specifically amartini, like it was very
(17:53):
specific craving.
I wanted to suck on the oliveand have just a touch of the
vodka, right, and I hadn'tthought about that in almost 14
years.
So I thought, well, isn't thatthe fact that God is isn't
taking this craving away?
Isn't that a stronghold?
(18:14):
Like now, how do I have astronghold and I'm obsessing on
drinking, and you know, I'mobsessing on how to not drink,
but the craving's still there,isn't that?
Why did God bring the obsessionback?
And that was really confusingfor me, and so I thought the
only way to shut down thisthinking is to just try it.
(18:34):
Maybe.
I'm probably not alcoholic, andyou know what is great?
What I'd love the listener whois like us, like you and I, to
hear is that you don't need togo on that field trip to
discover that, if you know youhad a problem with alcohol, you
still have a problem withalcohol, and it's not you.
(18:54):
What I learned was I hadevolved and grown and changed,
and alcohol had not.
Tonya Shellnutt (19:01):
Right.
So I want to ask you about thatbecause you hear all the time.
You know in AA I spent quite afew years in AA myself and in
church, you know, celebrate,recovery, different programs or
whatever.
But you always hear about whenyou you know you drink and you
quit and then you pick up again.
You pick up right from whereyou left off, right?
(19:21):
So for me, if I were to drinktoday, I would pick up right
from where I left off, which wasdrinking to the blackout.
Was that?
Did that happen to you?
Can you share?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
with our listeners a little bit about that.
Chris Janssen (19:32):
Yeah, yes, I know they can't see me, but I'm
shaking my head yes, absolutelyyes, I picked up where I left
off and worse.
So I knew right away alcoholhasn't changed.
It's just as cunning, bafflingand powerful as it always was.
(19:53):
The tricky thing is, though, Iwas really confused in my head,
and then I was.
I was thinking, oh well, I justneed to build my tolerance.
Obviously, I can't do it now.
I mean and I'm an achiever,right, I can get, get the goals
I go after.
So I just kept making thesegoals and trying harder, and, as
(20:14):
you know, the harder you try,the worse it gets.
And yeah, and it was.
I know for a fact that a lot ofwhat happened to me is all of
that shame and perfectionism andego, really from my first
(20:34):
sobriety.
That that I learned about whenI got into recovery the first
time.
It came flying back, becausenow, as a perfectionist, I've
stained my perfect sober streak,right.
I went into sobriety and Inever had another day, one.
I was like I got sober, I wentto recovery my first meeting.
(20:55):
I never had a drink again untilthis relapse or this experiment
, and so I was super hung up onoh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed I
can't go to a meeting becausenow I have to tell them I'm on
day one and I had all theseyears of sobriety and so I
really do that.
(21:15):
I got to work on my pride andmy ego and I tried all kinds of
other things before I went backto AA and AA.
You know I'm very clear in thebook I'm for all recovery
programs.
It's just that that's the onethat worked for me the first
time and I tried to get sober asecond time from all these other
(21:36):
things that had popped up thatI hadn't known about the first
time.
That was my only option in 2007when I got sober.
So now we have apps, we havebooks, we have all these other
programs.
I tried all of them.
I tried all the programs andnone of them.
They just got me reallyconfused.
A lot of them say, like you candrink if you want to.
(21:57):
You just won't want to.
After you read this book andlearn about the toxic effects of
alcohol, and I thought so Itried that.
You know well what happens onthe day.
I do want to.
Like I need to know without adoubt that I am an alcoholic and
it's like poison to me If I goout again I could die, and so I
wasn't getting that from theseother programs.
(22:18):
So I went through, I tried allthe things and then I went back
to AA, and that was my secondday one.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
And now.
Chris Janssen (22:29):
I'm back, I've been, I've been.
You know that's what got me.
That went great Cause.
Tonya Shellnutt (22:36):
I went back to that meeting.
Yeah, what happened when youwent back?
Chris Janssen (22:40):
I went back I said I'm Chris, I'm alcoholic.
I've been out running aroundtrying to pretend I'm not
alcoholic and I realized I havean issue with my pride.
I've been too embarrassed tocome back here and be on day one
and I need your help.
I'm on day one again, I needhelp, and I just stayed there.
I went to the early risersbecause I didn't have kids at
(23:02):
home anymore, so I didn't needto go to the 6.30 am meeting,
but I did because that was theone that had the most people in
it.
So I made sure I went to apopulated meeting every day, got
a sponsor, started the stepsagain and happy as a clam, you
started the steps again and,happy as a clam, you make
another comment in your book andit ties into this.
Tonya Shellnutt (23:22):
You say the pain of being the same becomes
greater than the pain ofchanging.
Share with us a little bitabout that, because I feel like
you've got to that point.
So share with the listenerswhat you mean by that.
Chris Janssen (23:34):
I mean some people call it hitting bottom or
I often refer to it as the painthreshold.
Right Bottoms, as you know,look really different.
For all of us.
That pain threshold's different, and so that's a nice way to
measure it.
When we really change as humanbeings and our human nature is
when the pain of staying thesame becomes greater than the
(23:58):
pain of changing, because therewill always be a cost, and so we
have to choose our hard.
It's hard to go back to AA andsay I'm on day one, and it's
embarrassing and it pricks at mypride and it's hard.
You know, you got to do allthis stuff again.
It's harder not to, becausethat would be a mess, I would
(24:20):
die.
I almost died on my last bottom, right before I got back.
Tonya Shellnutt (24:24):
So yeah, yeah, so so share with our listeners.
You know what is it aboutsobriety, that that that you
enjoy and that means somethingto you.
Chris Janssen (24:37):
Well, it's truly me.
I mean, I was born sober andit's the best way to be me and
to me.
I'm a very fun person.
I've learned over the years Ilove fun.
If something's not fun, Ireally don't want to do it.
So I try to make everything fun.
I have little tricks to makepaying bills fun.
(24:57):
If something's not fun, Ireally don't want to do it, so I
try to make everything fun.
I have little tricks to makepaying bills fun, or you know,
and it's just not fun to notsobriety to me is fun because I
feel good.
I'm a morning person.
I love to wake up early.
I can't do that if I'm drinking.
I love my memories, I love, Ilove going to parties and
laughing.
(25:17):
I'll be like the life of theparty.
I'll stay late, but if I'mdrinking I'm not.
I want to go to bed early.
I'm depressed, I can't be thelife of the party, I don't want
to stay there.
So for me and you know, and I dohave the, the benefit I can say
that because I did have so manyyears of continuous sobriety.
(25:39):
So really I learned all thosethings In sobriety.
I learned how fun life reallyis In sobriety.
I got sober when my kids werebabies, so they've never seen me
drunk, because the second thingthey were launched and luckily,
you know, I got myself back.
But I learned my most funmemories my being a mom, raising
(26:09):
kids, all you know, goingthrough challenges with the kids
, going through all kinds ofchallenges.
I got to do all that sober, andso when that, when I drank
again, I felt like I'd beenrobbed.
I felt like someone, my lifehas been stolen.
This sucks.
Sorry about that.
Yeah, you're good.
I thought this sucks and Ifiercely wanted my sobriety back
(26:32):
.
I just didn't know what to do.
I didn't know how to get itback, because it's such a tricky
conundrum, and so that is thatis why I started writing all
this down.
I was really just writing itfor myself, so I will wouldn't
forget again.
Tonya Shellnutt (26:49):
Yeah, um yeah, our listeners a little bit about
that.
Tell us about.
Tell them first off, a littlebit about your book, and I've
obviously given some reallygreat quotes.
I listened to it on audio books.
You can listen to it.
But tell them a little bitabout your book and where to get
it.
And then also, real quick, alittle bit about your coaching.
(27:13):
That you do, cause I think thatyou know we have people come to
the podcast and they'll be like, well, how did you get sober,
what did you do?
And you've got some of thosetools, so share with our
listeners how to find you andwhat the book's about.
Chris Janssen (27:27):
Yeah, the book's called Grace Yourself how to
Show Up for the Sober Life youWant, and to me that's the
opposite of brace yourself.
When I'm not sober, I'm justbracing myself for everything.
So it's grace yourself.
To me grace.
I'm a Christian.
So grace is unmerited favor byGod.
And when I'm, when I feel likeI'm in control of my worth, I
can't accept grace because I'msaying I'll tell you what I'm
(27:49):
worth and that's not gracebecause I need to accept it.
God, I don't get to choose howvaluable I am, god, god chooses.
And so that's why the book iscalled Grace Yourself the book.
The book is not just for peoplestruggling with alcohol.
It's for people struggling withcontrolling thoughts.
Maybe a recoveringperfectionist, how we, how we
(28:16):
get from feeling stuck tofeeling unstuck, and that could
be.
And then it does talk aboutaddictions and how that plays
into it.
But it could be biting yournails or you're addicted to just
kind of having negative thoughtpatterns, right, and so it's
full.
It's very interactive, it'sfull of my coaching tools.
But in order to present thosetools, I do go ahead and share
(28:39):
my story with alcohol addiction.
I present it in a way thathere's where I was stuck and
here's how you can take thesetools and apply it to anything
that's tripping you up, and sothat's the book.
My coaching is I'm not aaddiction expert or a sober
coach.
I'm a life coach.
(29:00):
I have a master's in counselingpsychology and I'm a board
certified coach, and I justhappened to have a story of
alcohol addiction, so I am anexpert at sharing my story.
But my coaching is really Icoach small businesses, people
in all different things.
My niche really over the years,has become high performers,
people that are high achievers.
(29:20):
Typically those are people whohire a life coach anyway.
But so that's a bit about mycoaching.
I love coaching and, yeah,everything's on my website,
chrisjanssencoachingcom.
Tonya Shellnutt (29:34):
That tells about my services and the books
dot com that tells about myservices and the books.
That's awesome.
Well, our time hasunfortunately come to an end.
There's so much more I want todive into.
You've got some a chapter onlabels.
I'm hoping maybe we can comeback in a later date and dig
into that, but if you have foundthis podcast today to be
(29:54):
helpful, I want to encourage youto go and leave us a five-star
review at Courageous Overcomersand share it.
Share it with someone who mightbe struggling with being a
perfectionist or struggling withalcohol, because the purpose of
this podcast is for people tosee that we can overcome.
We just have to lean into somecourage and work through some of
(30:17):
these issues, and so I hopeyou've been blessed today by our
guest Chris.
So, chris, thank you for beingwith us.
We appreciate you.
Chris Janssen (30:24):
Thanks, Tonya.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Thank you for joining us here on Courageous
Overcomers with Tonya Shellnutt.
Please remember to follow, likeand share this podcast.
To find out more about Tonya,go to her website at
tonyashellnutt.
com, or to ask a question aboutanything you've heard on today's
show.
Leave us a five-star review andyour message or email at tonya
at tonyashellnutt.
com.
(30:47):
Remember that'sS-H-E-L-L-N-U-T-T.
This podcast is produced by BobSlone Audio Productions.
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