July 2, 2025 • 34 mins
Welcome to Courageous Overcomers, where we face the pain, fight the lies, and rise with faith and resilience.
Today’s episode is not an easy one—but it’s a necessary one.
We’re peeling back the layers of deception—the deeply rooted lies women have been told… and believed.
Lies like:
"God can't forgive you."
"Your decision will bring shame to your family."
"Ignoring it will make it go away."
But silence doesn’t heal.
And a lie, when left unchallenged, becomes a quiet prison.
Maybe you've carried shame in secret. Maybe you’ve buried the guilt so deep that even you stopped looking. But here’s the truth: God sees you. And He doesn't shame you—He invites you into healing.
Today, we’re sitting down with Catherine and Chris to confront these lies head-on. With courage, honesty, and grace, we’ll expose the false narratives—and replace them with the truth that sets women free.
Because the truth is: you are not alone. You are not disqualified. And you are not beyond redemption.
This episode is for every woman who’s ever whispered, "I can't tell anyone..."
It’s time to bring it into the light.
Together, we are Courageous Overcomers. Let’s dive in.
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Link to 5 day workbook https://www.tonyashellnutt.com/2025-healing-cleanse
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tonya Shellnutt (00:08):
Well, welcome to Courageous Overcomers.
I'm your host, Tonya Shellnutt.
There are some sins that shoutand there are others that are
silent, and abortion is one ofthe silent ones, and the last
couple weeks we have had somevery, very courageous ladies
talking about this issue and Iwanted to bring them back on.
(00:29):
So today's episode ofCourageous Overcomers, I'm
joined by Catherine and Chris,and together we're going to
confront the most common liesthat women believe about
abortion and dive deeper intothe truth behind the lies.
And there's so many things thatwe can talk about today, but
(00:49):
we're going to hit a few of them.
And because you know, on thisshow we've talked about how and
it's always about you can't healwhat you're not willing to face
.
And Chris and Catherine bothshared their stories, their
personal stories, of theirabortion journey, and I wanted
to bring all of us together totalk about the lies that the
(01:12):
culture tells women and menabout abortion, because I think
this is a really importantaspect of the healing journey.
And so, chris and Catherine,thank you for being with us
again and for your courage andbravery.
We had a lot of positivefeedback from everybody on your
stories.
So welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Thank you, Tonya.
Tonya Shellnutt (01:35):
Thank you.
So the question is who wants togo first?
But guess what?
I?
Just I'm going to pick who'sgoing to go first.
You don't get to decide, so.
So, catherine, you get to bethe lucky one.
Oh goody, yeah.
(01:57):
So when you were sharing yourstory, one of the things that
you talked about was you nevertold anybody because you felt
like you had to protect yourfamily's image.
And many women are pressuredinto abortion not because they
(02:17):
don't want the baby, but becausethey're terrified of
dishonoring their family ordisappointing others.
So let's unpack that a littlebit.
Tell us a little bit about thatlie you believed and how it
impacted you.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Well, you know, it's the thinking about I just
remembering, thinking I can'tbring shame to my family, and
what that looked like to me wasnumber one.
I was the baby of five kids.
I was inexperienced, caringeven for babies.
(02:56):
All my siblings had childrenand I just felt like my mother
would just be mortified, youknow, and my dad was a
well-respected man in thecommunity and in the church.
So that's what it looked likein my head.
Tonya Shellnutt (03:17):
So let's unpack that a little bit more.
So you were worried about howit would impact your family
reputation and all of thedynamics, and so you rationalize
that in your head to be like Ican't bring any shame on my
family, I can't, you know, havea baby out of wedlock because
(03:42):
we're this well-respected family.
Is that basically what youbelieved?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Yeah, and I also.
I was, I was, you know, selfish, I didn't.
I didn't really think I wasready to be a mother and I
wasn't sure I wanted to marrythe man, the father of my child.
Tonya Shellnutt (04:02):
So yeah, the father of my child.
So, yeah, okay, so.
So let me switch over to Chrishere for a minute on this one
before I come back to anotherquestion for you, catherine.
Chris, was this you know, asyou were, you shared your story
of abortion.
Was you know this lie thatwomen believe?
(04:24):
Was this something thatimpacted you in any way?
Was that one of your decidingfactors?
Where were you at with that?
Speaker 4 (04:33):
So this one was not one that impacted me, right,
because I would have been thefirst one to have a child of my
siblings and I was unmarried.
Right, that was part of thetopic that we discussed when I
talked about my story, but Ithink that Catherine really kind
of summed it up well with the.
(04:54):
There was a selfishness, a deepselfishness, about my own
feelings that I wasn't preparedand the person I was with was
not prepared, right, because heabused alcohol, he did drugs.
You know, I looked at thatwhole situation and thought
(05:17):
neither one of us are ready forthis and I'm going to make the
choice because he really didn'twant me to have the abortion.
That was part of, you know, myinitial issues that I had with
this was, you know, the firsttime that I was supposed to go
and have the abortion, I had tocancel the appointment because
he went out and got himself sodrunk over the fact that I was
(05:40):
doing this, and so it wasn'treally about image, it was more
about my own beliefs and myselfishness.
Tonya Shellnutt (05:50):
So so, catherine, to you first, what
would you tell the young ladywho is struggling with this
right now, in a similarsituation to what you were in
about, you know, bringing shameto your family?
What would you tell her to doin this situation Because she
(06:12):
thinks she would bring shame toher family?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah, and that's an interesting question because a
lot of women that I have hadconversations with that are
similar like mine.
One particular woman I canthink of just said I could never
do that.
I could never.
So you know, I'm well known inmy community or whatever.
It's all these justificationsthat we try to make.
(06:41):
But as far as telling someone,you know, I think, because now
we're in a culture where there'sso many options, you can see
that it's a baby, you can giveit up for adoption, or there's
just so many, I think, optionsnow, as opposed to when mine was
(07:05):
, my situation was 44 years agoand I think because you know,
number one, we're just seeingmore and more just options,
whereas, you know, in mylifetime there wasn't and it was
just a quick fix.
And we've also are hearing alot more people like Chris and
(07:28):
myself that that have these,these deep wounds, these, these
regrets, these, you know the,the things that go along with
being a post-abortive woman thatonly Christ can heal.
You know, the scar is stillthere, but but the but he does
heal the wound you know, whichis.
(07:48):
I thank God for that.
So Amen.
Tonya Shellnutt (07:52):
Well, and that's a that's a great point
that you, you know you bring upis there is the ultrasounds,
there's the pregnancy resourcecenters that they can go to, and
adoption agencies that peoplecan go to, and I think, like you
said, for you it was the quickfix, right, and for so many it's
(08:13):
the quick fix, but the courageand the bravery that's required
to help somebody, or go to thatpregnancy research center or go
to that adoption agency to seewhat your options are, chris, I
would kick it to you on that.
You know, what would you say tothe young lady who's, you know,
(08:35):
worried about her family andthe community in which she lives
?
And what they would say?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
You know, I find myself in a situation where I
would say that if you keep it toyourself, right?
If you try to hide it, keep itin the darkness, as I would
describe it it's only going tobe worse, right?
You don't realize how muchworse it's going to be, and you
need to bring it to the light.
So you really need to confidein the people that you love and
(09:08):
who love you of your situation,because I think that that makes
a difference.
You know, I think that if I hadgone to my mother and told her,
my outcome would have been verydifferent, you know than what
it was, and instead, by keepingit hidden and secretive, it
turned out to be what it isRight.
Tonya Shellnutt (09:29):
So well, and that actually leads us to the
next question.
That goes to you, chris, andyou know, one of the big things
that I talk about on thispodcast is about, you know,
growing up for me, I was justalways taught to shove
everything under the rug, likeyou just ignored everything.
And if you just ignored it, itwould just miraculously go away.
(09:52):
And I think that a lot ofpost-abortive women believe the
lie that if I ignore this, itwill go away because it's so
painful to confront our wounds.
And so I want you to unpackthat a little bit the lie that
the woman who's been living withthis for years and years and
(10:14):
years in silence, and the ideathat if you just don't, you know
, talk about it or acknowledgeit, that it's going to go away.
Let's unpack that a little bit.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
So I want to say that I think that that is absolutely
one of the biggest things thatI think people believe, right,
is that if I just, you know,pretend like this never happened
, I'll be fine, right.
But I think that we also have,you know, as I said in my story,
(10:47):
right, I had no idea of howthis was going to impact me at
the time when I did it and I wasstunned by how broken I was
after the fact.
And you can't fix, you know, abroken arm, a broken leg, broken
wing, whatever, right, if youignore it, you'll constantly
(11:12):
have that lameness that youcarry with you and it affects
everything.
So, yeah, I mean, I think thatthat is a huge thing, because my
mother essentially told me that, right as we discussed after my
second abortion, and my sisterhad announced that she was
pregnant and I was still reelingfrom everything that I had done
(11:35):
, and my mother basically waslike you need to get over this,
right, you need to figure out onyour own how you're going to
get past this, because you needto be happy for your sister, and
I wasn't happy for my sisterbecause I wasn't happy for me
either, right?
So you know, and you need to beable to talk to other people
(11:55):
about it.
I really do believe that.
I mean, I think that that helpsyou.
And also you have to put all ofthis in the Lord, because
you're never going to fix it.
That hole in your soul willnever get fixed if you don't
give it up to him Now.
It may always be a reminder,right.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Amen.
Tonya Shellnutt (12:16):
Catherine, what would you like to add to that?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Totally agree with what Chris said and even in my
situation, looking back, I knowthat my mother and father would
have supported me.
But again it goes back to myown selfishness.
And so I agree with Chris.
It took me from age 22 to 28before I mean I never, never
(12:45):
talked about it, you know, andit just and really mine didn't
start happening until I startedwalking with the Lord.
And then the triggers of thewhat did I really do?
And the babies and things likethat, and then you come to the
end of yourself and then yourealize, wow, this is basically,
(13:07):
in essence, I murdered my ownbaby and I had to come to terms
with that.
But it was a process and, likeChris said it, really, unless
you need to talk to someone andyou need to find that person,
that trusted person, and thereare times where I have said
things to someone and you knowthey didn't understand it or
didn't know what to do with it.
And you know they didn'tunderstand it or didn't know
(13:28):
what to do with it.
But it's like the more you talkabout this situation, bringing
it into the light, the morehealing for me I've seen, and
with other people and justtalking to post-abortive women,
and that's the first step, andspeaking it out and saying you
(13:50):
know, this was, this was a life.
Tonya Shellnutt (13:53):
Right and yeah, that actually goes to the next
lie, catherine, and it's thatthis doesn't affect me anymore
anymore, because some women dobelieve that they're fine until,
like you said, the triggerscome.
You know the babies, therelationships, anniversaries,
the sound of a baby's cry, andyou know, let's unpack that a
(14:15):
little bit, because again itgoes back to acknowledging the
pain and what happened.
I don't know how, other thanbecause I've not lived this, but
I don't understand how peoplecan think this doesn't affect
(14:36):
them.
So can you help our audienceunpack that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Yeah, I don't understand that either, tanya,
even being a post-abortive woman, because I've heard women
who've had an abortion, peoplemy age range that will make
comments like, well, you know,it's Jesus died for that sin and
they just kind of go on, andthat's true, that's true, and
(15:06):
that's true, that's true.
But I think, as a woman, it'sjust the.
You know, god made us to bringforth life, we're nurturers,
it's just a natural thing.
And I can't wrap my brainaround the fact that women you
(15:29):
know, some women have said thatand maybe it was just only one
or two, and I had to say, well,okay, that's good.
And I realized everybody hastheir own journey and they have
to move forward at their paceand their freedom in the Lord
(15:50):
and recognizing it.
And some people could just sayI'm good, but for me, it will
always be there for me.
But yet I can walk in freedomnow and I can talk about it
without feeling condemnation orshame or guilt, because I am
(16:10):
free in Christ and it's by hisblood that I'm set free.
Tonya Shellnutt (16:13):
So right, yeah, yeah.
So, chris, what do you thinkabout that, about what Catherine
just said about you know, thisdoesn't affect me anymore.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Um, well, I think that, as women, right, um, that
is definitely something thatI've seen over my lifetime,
right where, as women, we tendto bury things right on our own,
because, as a mother, you'realways the one that takes care
(16:45):
of everything, takes care of thekids when they get sick.
So a lot of times, from thatperspective, I think that women
just naturally gravitate intothat mode of you know, well, you
know it's just a cold or no, Idon't need to worry about this.
But I think that the part thateverybody misses is that when
you have broken limbs or wingsor whatever you want to call it,
(17:08):
those things are deep seatedand you, if you ignore it, you
will have forever a lamenessthat comes with those types of
breaks.
You know, and it's the partsthat you can't see that I think
are really deeply seated thatway, right, because it's you
(17:29):
know, if you have a heart attackor something along those lines,
you know doctors can fix it,you know you can survive those
things, but the parts that youdon't see are that your heart
muscles been weakened or youhave something else, that's you
know just not quite what itshould be and you don't realize
those things, and I think thatthat's the biggest problem that
(17:51):
I see in this particular area,because I think that women do
that.
You know we're naturallypredisposed to doing that
burying that.
You know it's not necessarilythat you're hiding it from you
know a shame perspective, butyou're hiding it in the sense
that you know shame perspective,but you're hiding it in the
(18:12):
sense that you know this is justnot really that big of a deal
and you know I think it.
It truly, it affects people waydeeper than they would ever
expect it to, absolutely yeah.
Tonya Shellnutt (18:20):
So in my book Wounded Indefined, I talk about
this, about how you know you.
You get a cut and you're youknow.
You fall down, you get a cut orwhatever and you don't tend to
it and the germs get into it, itfesters Eventually, it goes to
your bloodstream and it can killyou.
And the same is true for anemotional world, right.
(18:42):
Where if you ignore it, it cankill you, and it comes out in
all of these sideways behaviorsthat you might not even be aware
of.
And so I want to just make aplug on my website I have the
five day heal and cleanseworkbook that starts with day
one of identifying the wound,and it helps everyone work
(19:04):
through that wound.
So I want to encourage ouraudience to go to go get that,
because it doesn't matter ifit's a you know you've been
sexually abused or you have anaddiction issue, or it's an
abortion, it's all the same.
And it goes back to you can'tsuppress the pain, because
suppressing it doesn't erase it,it just buries it.
(19:26):
So I want to move to the nextquestion, and you know we've
already really unpacked this inmy opinion, but I want to unpack
it just a little bit more.
And it goes along with if Iignore it, it will go away.
(19:47):
So it's, you know, the idea ofyou know this doesn't affect me
anymore versus just blatantignoring, and so is there a
difference between the two.
You know, just this doesn'taffect me, chris, you know, pull
up your bootstraps, get over itkind of mentality, versus
(20:11):
keeping it buried and hidden andnot even ever talking about it
because you know it's justeasier to ignore it.
Is there a difference betweenthe two?
Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
I would say that yes, there is, you know, because I
think, if it's like you said,right, if you ignore it or try
to suppress it in your mind,where you don't think about it,
I think that, as Catherine and Ihave both said, right, I mean,
(20:46):
when he gave up smoking, he saidto me, he said he would just
have a craving for a cigarette.
That was just so intense, andyet he hadn't smoked in 10 or 15
years.
Right, and I kind of think thatthis is the same thing, right,
you think that you are over it,or that you've ignored it, or
(21:07):
that you've suppressed it enoughthat it won't affect you, and
yet you don't even realize.
As you said, some of thechoices you make in life, some
of the things that you do, someof the ways that you behave, are
all things that come from thisthing that is buried so deep
inside of you.
So, yes, I think there is adifference between the two.
Tonya Shellnutt (21:29):
All right, catherine.
Do you have anythingadditionally to add to that?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
I don't.
I think Chris said that verywell.
Yeah, okay.
Tonya Shellnutt (21:37):
Well, I want to go to my next question.
Catherine, this is for you.
I've known you a long time.
I know this is something thatactually both you and Chris
struggle with.
You've both shared about it.
And that is talking about thisIf I tell anyone, they'll never
look at me the same, and thereis a tremendous amount of fear
(22:01):
in sharing your story, sharingabout what you've done.
I mean, I would say this isapplicable to you know, even
like in my situation on thesexual abuse stuff, like there's
a shame that's involved with it, and so on the post-abortive
front, there's a level of fearthat comes in in talking about
(22:23):
this issue.
So let's unpack that a littlebit and share why there's fear.
And what can we, you know, tryto encourage women to do with
that.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Yeah, yeah, I realize , and even just looking at my
life and the self-assessment ofmy own life and growing up and
my family and hearing about God,but at the same time I
recognize I had a lot of fear,just as a little girl, for
(22:54):
things that you know, my oldersiblings always jumped out and
scared me and things like that.
So I think sometimes we end uphaving that root that we don't
recognize until we begin to walkwith the Lord.
Because I heard an acronym onetime fear is false evidence
(23:16):
appearing real.
An acronym one time, you knowfear is false evidence appearing
real.
And so I just think that fearis just was part of my life that
I struggled with and I realizedthat I, you know, I have to
speak God's word out to helpcounteract that fear of what
(23:36):
people thought of me.
And in essence, fear is a rootof pride.
You're worried about whatpeople think, and it's really.
People could care lesssometimes about what you think
or say or whatever.
And so that's it for me, right.
Tonya Shellnutt (23:57):
Chris, how about you?
I mean, I mean, you know, Iknow that you also were fearful
of sharing this with people.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Um, and you know, talk a little bit about that
with our audience and and whyit's helpful to talk about it um
, well, because I think that ina lot of ways, fear leads to
anger, right, and I can say thatyou know, bravado, anger, you
(24:41):
know speaking out and kind ofbeing more assertive about it as
opposed to being moreempathetic towards it, right,
and I think that that is the waythat I would characterize
myself before I came to know theLord, right?
I mean, I still think peoplethink I'm angry all the time
(25:03):
anyway, but I don't understandthat one from my perspective.
But you know, because I'll belike, really, you thought that
statement was anger, I don't.
I don't think they understand.
Tonya Shellnutt (25:18):
No, they just don't understand your direct
personality, which?
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I love.
I mean people think I'm likeshort, and direct and I am, and
so whatever, I guess, if thatmakes me angry.
But I think that those are, youknow, really important things
to remember, right, that youknow the fear might be the thing
that drives you to not sayanything about it, but at the
(25:44):
same time it can lead to otherthings, like we just said, right
that it manifests itself inways that you would never
imagine.
Tonya Shellnutt (25:52):
Right, and don't y'all think too that you
know, when you look at a culture, the culture of abortion, which
our society has normalized, it,you look at, you know one in
three women have been sexuallyabused, one in four men have
been sexually abused, but yetnobody talks about all of the
(26:16):
outcomes or what happens tothese people, the pain, the
hidden pain, right.
So talking about it is soimportant to me, which is why
I'm doing this podcast, why I'mbringing different conversations
and topics up, because I wantus to lean into the heavy
conversations, because I wantpeople to live in freedom and be
(26:39):
free.
And that actually leads me tothe next and the last question
that we're going to unpack today, and that is this God could
never forgive me for this, and Ithink that is one lie that has
a death hold on so many people.
(27:04):
And so, chris, I want you toshare about that, because not
only did you grow up in aCatholic faith there's some
rigidiosity in that but then youheld on to that for a long time
(27:25):
.
So let's unpack that a littlebit.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
she gives me the toughest questions, oh my gosh.
Well, you know.
Here's where I'm going to saythat the Lord is good, right,
and I think that, from my walkand the way that it was, you're
(27:51):
right.
I mean, I didn't really thinkanything of it at the time when
it happened, and yet once I cameto start to know Christ and I
was introduced and startedreading the Bible and knowing
everything that Jesus had donefor me, you have got to be able
to give that up to God and lethim heal that wound that you
(28:15):
have, because if you don't, it'sit's going to be life altering,
right?
And I think that I've.
I've seen people where they arewalking with the Lord and they
still have things that they havenot given over to the Lord to
heal and take care of.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
And those burdens that they carry with them do
affect them in every single way.
So the one thing that I can sayis that I think that that's
part of the key right Is to makesure that you're open and
honest with God and listen towhat he says, right, and if he
says you need to go and speak toa room full of 400 women and
(28:55):
tell them about your story, youbetter be getting up there and
telling your story, right,because these are the things
that will help you to continueto move forward.
You know we've been doing asermon series about being
grateful.
Well, I shouldn't say it'sabout being grateful.
Last week's sermon was aboutbeing you know, not complaining
(29:19):
right To show gratefulness andjoy to the Lord, and I, as we
went through that in our latestBible study this week, I kept
thinking to myself about thecircumstance right, it's not
something that I should begrateful for, but what God's
done with it is something that Iabsolutely should be grateful
(29:41):
for, because it has given me anopportunity to be able to speak
about things that you know mostwomen don't want to talk about.
That's right.
And how it's.
Life changed for me.
You know that when I did givemy life over to the Lord that he
forgave this sin, both of themRight.
So, and it's, you know, if it'ssomething that's stuck in my
(30:06):
head that you know well, howcould he forgive me?
You know, I just have to lookat everything that he's forgiven
.
You know how rich we can be asa people.
Tonya Shellnutt (30:17):
Catherine, I want you to unpack this last
question that I gave to Chris aswell, and that is God could
never forgive me for this.
Share with our audience whatthat lie did to you and how God
worked through you to overcomethat.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, I think that's a typical that is probably the
number one lie thatpost-abortive women think is
that God could never forgive me,because it's such a horrendous
act that a woman can do to herchild.
But for me it's like anythingthat and we've already touched
on that when you.
(30:59):
Well, first of all, jesus islight, and I think about 1 John
you know that says Jesus islight and there is no darkness
in him.
So, as the church and I thinkTanya, I'm so grateful that
you're doing something like this, a podcast, and Chris is
speaking out, I'm speaking out,we're being, we're given
(31:21):
platforms to speak God's truth,and so part of that 1 John
passages is that if we are lyingand we don't have, so for
number one, god is light andthere is no darkness in him.
And if we confess our sins,he's faithful and just to
(31:44):
forgive us of our sins and tocleanse us from all sin.
But if we claim we haven'tsinned or we haven't forgived
ourselves, then we're not livingin the light, we're not living
in the truth, and so for me, andthen, in essence, we're like
making God out to be a liar, andthen, in essence, we're like
making God out to be a liar.
So it really drove the pointhome for me when someone said to
(32:07):
me well, you can't forgiveyourself.
Then it's like well then, god,you know God, that's the whole
point of the cross, and Jesusdied for all sin.
And so, just remembering thatand allowing that for myself, I
had to process that and I wentoh wow, I don't want this to be
about me, and it is humbling toknow that Christ died for all of
(32:28):
our sins and we just have tokeep speaking the truth and
unveiling this dark secret thatkeeps women and men in bondage,
and I think, as the church, weneed to rise up and talk more
about these particular topics.
So I thank you, tanya, fortouching on a lot of topics,
(32:48):
including abortion.
Tonya Shellnutt (32:50):
Yeah Well, I just want to thank you, ladies,
for your courage and bravery forcoming on to the show.
As we wrap up today, I want toencourage our listeners to go to
wwwTanyaShelnuttcom anddownload the five-day healing
cleanse workbook.
Leave us a five-star review.
It helps us get hope out faster.
And if anybody wants to connectwith Chris or Catherine, email
(33:14):
me and I will get you in touchwith them.
Thank you, ladies.
I appreciate your courage andbravery and I look forward to
seeing what God is going to dowith this and all the
technological difficulties wehad as well.
Hey.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
Tonya can I throw something out there?
Yes, so, as we've done thesetwo, these last two things, I've
looked at, you know, my Bibleand the concordance for things
about courage, and I just wantto read this one.
It's Psalms 138.3.
On the day I called, youanswered me, you made me bold,
(33:51):
with strength in my soul,because I think that that is
exactly what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yes, so we're covering this topic.
Tonya Shellnutt (33:59):
Amen, amen.
All right, ladies.
Well, thank you so much.
Appreciate you and we'll chatsoon.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Thank you for joining us here on Courageous
Overcomers with Tonya Shellnutt.
Please remember to follow, likeand share this podcast.
To find out more about Tonya,go to her website at
tonyashellnutt.
com, or to ask a question aboutanything you've heard on today's
show.
Leave us a five-star review andyour message or email at tonya
at tonyashellnutt.
com.
(34:29):
Remember that'sS-H-E-L-L-N-U-T-T.
This podcast is produced by BobSlone Audio Productions.
Well, welcome to Courageous Overcomers.
I'm your host, Tonya Shellnutt.
There are some sins that shoutand there are others that are
silent, and abortion is one ofthe silent ones, and the last
couple weeks we have had somevery, very courageous ladies
talking about this issue and Iwanted to bring them back on.
(00:29):
So today's episode ofCourageous Overcomers, I'm
joined by Catherine and Chris,and together we're going to
confront the most common liesthat women believe about
abortion and dive deeper intothe truth behind the lies.
And there's so many things thatwe can talk about today, but
(00:49):
we're going to hit a few of them.
And because you know, on thisshow we've talked about how and
it's always about you can't healwhat you're not willing to face
.
And Chris and Catherine bothshared their stories, their
personal stories, of theirabortion journey, and I wanted
to bring all of us together totalk about the lies that the
(01:12):
culture tells women and menabout abortion, because I think
this is a really importantaspect of the healing journey.
And so, chris and Catherine,thank you for being with us
again and for your courage andbravery.
We had a lot of positivefeedback from everybody on your
stories.
So welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Thank you, Tonya.
Tonya Shellnutt (01:35):
Thank you.
So the question is who wants togo first?
But guess what?
I?
Just I'm going to pick who'sgoing to go first.
You don't get to decide, so.
So, catherine, you get to bethe lucky one.
Oh goody, yeah.
(01:57):
So when you were sharing yourstory, one of the things that
you talked about was you nevertold anybody because you felt
like you had to protect yourfamily's image.
And many women are pressuredinto abortion not because they
(02:17):
don't want the baby, but becausethey're terrified of
dishonoring their family ordisappointing others.
So let's unpack that a littlebit.
Tell us a little bit about thatlie you believed and how it
impacted you.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Well, you know, it's the thinking about I just
remembering, thinking I can'tbring shame to my family, and
what that looked like to me wasnumber one.
I was the baby of five kids.
I was inexperienced, caringeven for babies.
(02:56):
All my siblings had childrenand I just felt like my mother
would just be mortified, youknow, and my dad was a
well-respected man in thecommunity and in the church.
So that's what it looked likein my head.
Tonya Shellnutt (03:17):
So let's unpack that a little bit more.
So you were worried about howit would impact your family
reputation and all of thedynamics, and so you rationalize
that in your head to be like Ican't bring any shame on my
family, I can't, you know, havea baby out of wedlock because
(03:42):
we're this well-respected family.
Is that basically what youbelieved?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Yeah, and I also.
I was, I was, you know, selfish, I didn't.
I didn't really think I wasready to be a mother and I
wasn't sure I wanted to marrythe man, the father of my child.
Tonya Shellnutt (04:02):
So yeah, the father of my child.
So, yeah, okay, so.
So let me switch over to Chrishere for a minute on this one
before I come back to anotherquestion for you, catherine.
Chris, was this you know, asyou were, you shared your story
of abortion.
Was you know this lie thatwomen believe?
(04:24):
Was this something thatimpacted you in any way?
Was that one of your decidingfactors?
Where were you at with that?
Speaker 4 (04:33):
So this one was not one that impacted me, right,
because I would have been thefirst one to have a child of my
siblings and I was unmarried.
Right, that was part of thetopic that we discussed when I
talked about my story, but Ithink that Catherine really kind
of summed it up well with the.
(04:54):
There was a selfishness, a deepselfishness, about my own
feelings that I wasn't preparedand the person I was with was
not prepared, right, because heabused alcohol, he did drugs.
You know, I looked at thatwhole situation and thought
(05:17):
neither one of us are ready forthis and I'm going to make the
choice because he really didn'twant me to have the abortion.
That was part of, you know, myinitial issues that I had with
this was, you know, the firsttime that I was supposed to go
and have the abortion, I had tocancel the appointment because
he went out and got himself sodrunk over the fact that I was
(05:40):
doing this, and so it wasn'treally about image, it was more
about my own beliefs and myselfishness.
Tonya Shellnutt (05:50):
So so, catherine, to you first, what
would you tell the young ladywho is struggling with this
right now, in a similarsituation to what you were in
about, you know, bringing shameto your family?
What would you tell her to doin this situation Because she
(06:12):
thinks she would bring shame toher family?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah, and that's an interesting question because a
lot of women that I have hadconversations with that are
similar like mine.
One particular woman I canthink of just said I could never
do that.
I could never.
So you know, I'm well known inmy community or whatever.
It's all these justificationsthat we try to make.
(06:41):
But as far as telling someone,you know, I think, because now
we're in a culture where there'sso many options, you can see
that it's a baby, you can giveit up for adoption, or there's
just so many, I think, optionsnow, as opposed to when mine was
(07:05):
, my situation was 44 years agoand I think because you know,
number one, we're just seeingmore and more just options,
whereas, you know, in mylifetime there wasn't and it was
just a quick fix.
And we've also are hearing alot more people like Chris and
(07:28):
myself that that have these,these deep wounds, these, these
regrets, these, you know the,the things that go along with
being a post-abortive woman thatonly Christ can heal.
You know, the scar is stillthere, but but the but he does
heal the wound you know, whichis.
(07:48):
I thank God for that.
So Amen.
Tonya Shellnutt (07:52):
Well, and that's a that's a great point
that you, you know you bring upis there is the ultrasounds,
there's the pregnancy resourcecenters that they can go to, and
adoption agencies that peoplecan go to, and I think, like you
said, for you it was the quickfix, right, and for so many it's
(08:13):
the quick fix, but the courageand the bravery that's required
to help somebody, or go to thatpregnancy research center or go
to that adoption agency to seewhat your options are, chris, I
would kick it to you on that.
You know, what would you say tothe young lady who's, you know,
(08:35):
worried about her family andthe community in which she lives
?
And what they would say?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
You know, I find myself in a situation where I
would say that if you keep it toyourself, right?
If you try to hide it, keep itin the darkness, as I would
describe it it's only going tobe worse, right?
You don't realize how muchworse it's going to be, and you
need to bring it to the light.
So you really need to confidein the people that you love and
(09:08):
who love you of your situation,because I think that that makes
a difference.
You know, I think that if I hadgone to my mother and told her,
my outcome would have been verydifferent, you know than what
it was, and instead, by keepingit hidden and secretive, it
turned out to be what it isRight.
Tonya Shellnutt (09:29):
So well, and that actually leads us to the
next question.
That goes to you, chris, andyou know, one of the big things
that I talk about on thispodcast is about, you know,
growing up for me, I was justalways taught to shove
everything under the rug, likeyou just ignored everything.
And if you just ignored it, itwould just miraculously go away.
(09:52):
And I think that a lot ofpost-abortive women believe the
lie that if I ignore this, itwill go away because it's so
painful to confront our wounds.
And so I want you to unpackthat a little bit the lie that
the woman who's been living withthis for years and years and
(10:14):
years in silence, and the ideathat if you just don't, you know
, talk about it or acknowledgeit, that it's going to go away.
Let's unpack that a little bit.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
So I want to say that I think that that is absolutely
one of the biggest things thatI think people believe, right,
is that if I just, you know,pretend like this never happened
, I'll be fine, right.
But I think that we also have,you know, as I said in my story,
(10:47):
right, I had no idea of howthis was going to impact me at
the time when I did it and I wasstunned by how broken I was
after the fact.
And you can't fix, you know, abroken arm, a broken leg, broken
wing, whatever, right, if youignore it, you'll constantly
(11:12):
have that lameness that youcarry with you and it affects
everything.
So, yeah, I mean, I think thatthat is a huge thing, because my
mother essentially told me that, right as we discussed after my
second abortion, and my sisterhad announced that she was
pregnant and I was still reelingfrom everything that I had done
(11:35):
, and my mother basically waslike you need to get over this,
right, you need to figure out onyour own how you're going to
get past this, because you needto be happy for your sister, and
I wasn't happy for my sisterbecause I wasn't happy for me
either, right?
So you know, and you need to beable to talk to other people
(11:55):
about it.
I really do believe that.
I mean, I think that that helpsyou.
And also you have to put all ofthis in the Lord, because
you're never going to fix it.
That hole in your soul willnever get fixed if you don't
give it up to him Now.
It may always be a reminder,right.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Amen.
Tonya Shellnutt (12:16):
Catherine, what would you like to add to that?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Totally agree with what Chris said and even in my
situation, looking back, I knowthat my mother and father would
have supported me.
But again it goes back to myown selfishness.
And so I agree with Chris.
It took me from age 22 to 28before I mean I never, never
(12:45):
talked about it, you know, andit just and really mine didn't
start happening until I startedwalking with the Lord.
And then the triggers of thewhat did I really do?
And the babies and things likethat, and then you come to the
end of yourself and then yourealize, wow, this is basically,
(13:07):
in essence, I murdered my ownbaby and I had to come to terms
with that.
But it was a process and, likeChris said it, really, unless
you need to talk to someone andyou need to find that person,
that trusted person, and thereare times where I have said
things to someone and you knowthey didn't understand it or
didn't know what to do with it.
And you know they didn'tunderstand it or didn't know
(13:28):
what to do with it.
But it's like the more you talkabout this situation, bringing
it into the light, the morehealing for me I've seen, and
with other people and justtalking to post-abortive women,
and that's the first step, andspeaking it out and saying you
(13:50):
know, this was, this was a life.
Tonya Shellnutt (13:53):
Right and yeah, that actually goes to the next
lie, catherine, and it's thatthis doesn't affect me anymore
anymore, because some women dobelieve that they're fine until,
like you said, the triggerscome.
You know the babies, therelationships, anniversaries,
the sound of a baby's cry, andyou know, let's unpack that a
(14:15):
little bit, because again itgoes back to acknowledging the
pain and what happened.
I don't know how, other thanbecause I've not lived this, but
I don't understand how peoplecan think this doesn't affect
(14:36):
them.
So can you help our audienceunpack that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Yeah, I don't understand that either, tanya,
even being a post-abortive woman, because I've heard women
who've had an abortion, peoplemy age range that will make
comments like, well, you know,it's Jesus died for that sin and
they just kind of go on, andthat's true, that's true, and
(15:06):
that's true, that's true.
But I think, as a woman, it'sjust the.
You know, god made us to bringforth life, we're nurturers,
it's just a natural thing.
And I can't wrap my brainaround the fact that women you
(15:29):
know, some women have said thatand maybe it was just only one
or two, and I had to say, well,okay, that's good.
And I realized everybody hastheir own journey and they have
to move forward at their paceand their freedom in the Lord
(15:50):
and recognizing it.
And some people could just sayI'm good, but for me, it will
always be there for me.
But yet I can walk in freedomnow and I can talk about it
without feeling condemnation orshame or guilt, because I am
(16:10):
free in Christ and it's by hisblood that I'm set free.
Tonya Shellnutt (16:13):
So right, yeah, yeah.
So, chris, what do you thinkabout that, about what Catherine
just said about you know, thisdoesn't affect me anymore.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Um, well, I think that, as women, right, um, that
is definitely something thatI've seen over my lifetime,
right where, as women, we tendto bury things right on our own,
because, as a mother, you'realways the one that takes care
(16:45):
of everything, takes care of thekids when they get sick.
So a lot of times, from thatperspective, I think that women
just naturally gravitate intothat mode of you know, well, you
know it's just a cold or no, Idon't need to worry about this.
But I think that the part thateverybody misses is that when
you have broken limbs or wingsor whatever you want to call it,
(17:08):
those things are deep seatedand you, if you ignore it, you
will have forever a lamenessthat comes with those types of
breaks.
You know, and it's the partsthat you can't see that I think
are really deeply seated thatway, right, because it's you
(17:29):
know, if you have a heart attackor something along those lines,
you know doctors can fix it,you know you can survive those
things, but the parts that youdon't see are that your heart
muscles been weakened or youhave something else, that's you
know just not quite what itshould be and you don't realize
those things, and I think thatthat's the biggest problem that
(17:51):
I see in this particular area,because I think that women do
that.
You know we're naturallypredisposed to doing that
burying that.
You know it's not necessarilythat you're hiding it from you
know a shame perspective, butyou're hiding it in the sense
that you know shame perspective,but you're hiding it in the
(18:12):
sense that you know this is justnot really that big of a deal
and you know I think it.
It truly, it affects people waydeeper than they would ever
expect it to, absolutely yeah.
Tonya Shellnutt (18:20):
So in my book Wounded Indefined, I talk about
this, about how you know you.
You get a cut and you're youknow.
You fall down, you get a cut orwhatever and you don't tend to
it and the germs get into it, itfesters Eventually, it goes to
your bloodstream and it can killyou.
And the same is true for anemotional world, right.
(18:42):
Where if you ignore it, it cankill you, and it comes out in
all of these sideways behaviorsthat you might not even be aware
of.
And so I want to just make aplug on my website I have the
five day heal and cleanseworkbook that starts with day
one of identifying the wound,and it helps everyone work
(19:04):
through that wound.
So I want to encourage ouraudience to go to go get that,
because it doesn't matter ifit's a you know you've been
sexually abused or you have anaddiction issue, or it's an
abortion, it's all the same.
And it goes back to you can'tsuppress the pain, because
suppressing it doesn't erase it,it just buries it.
(19:26):
So I want to move to the nextquestion, and you know we've
already really unpacked this inmy opinion, but I want to unpack
it just a little bit more.
And it goes along with if Iignore it, it will go away.
(19:47):
So it's, you know, the idea ofyou know this doesn't affect me
anymore versus just blatantignoring, and so is there a
difference between the two.
You know, just this doesn'taffect me, chris, you know, pull
up your bootstraps, get over itkind of mentality, versus
(20:11):
keeping it buried and hidden andnot even ever talking about it
because you know it's justeasier to ignore it.
Is there a difference betweenthe two?
Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
I would say that yes, there is, you know, because I
think, if it's like you said,right, if you ignore it or try
to suppress it in your mind,where you don't think about it,
I think that, as Catherine and Ihave both said, right, I mean,
(20:46):
when he gave up smoking, he saidto me, he said he would just
have a craving for a cigarette.
That was just so intense, andyet he hadn't smoked in 10 or 15
years.
Right, and I kind of think thatthis is the same thing, right,
you think that you are over it,or that you've ignored it, or
(21:07):
that you've suppressed it enoughthat it won't affect you, and
yet you don't even realize.
As you said, some of thechoices you make in life, some
of the things that you do, someof the ways that you behave, are
all things that come from thisthing that is buried so deep
inside of you.
So, yes, I think there is adifference between the two.
Tonya Shellnutt (21:29):
All right, catherine.
Do you have anythingadditionally to add to that?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
I don't.
I think Chris said that verywell.
Yeah, okay.
Tonya Shellnutt (21:37):
Well, I want to go to my next question.
Catherine, this is for you.
I've known you a long time.
I know this is something thatactually both you and Chris
struggle with.
You've both shared about it.
And that is talking about thisIf I tell anyone, they'll never
look at me the same, and thereis a tremendous amount of fear
(22:01):
in sharing your story, sharingabout what you've done.
I mean, I would say this isapplicable to you know, even
like in my situation on thesexual abuse stuff, like there's
a shame that's involved with it, and so on the post-abortive
front, there's a level of fearthat comes in in talking about
(22:23):
this issue.
So let's unpack that a littlebit and share why there's fear.
And what can we, you know, tryto encourage women to do with
that.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Yeah, yeah, I realize , and even just looking at my
life and the self-assessment ofmy own life and growing up and
my family and hearing about God,but at the same time I
recognize I had a lot of fear,just as a little girl, for
(22:54):
things that you know, my oldersiblings always jumped out and
scared me and things like that.
So I think sometimes we end uphaving that root that we don't
recognize until we begin to walkwith the Lord.
Because I heard an acronym onetime fear is false evidence
(23:16):
appearing real.
An acronym one time, you knowfear is false evidence appearing
real.
And so I just think that fearis just was part of my life that
I struggled with and I realizedthat I, you know, I have to
speak God's word out to helpcounteract that fear of what
(23:36):
people thought of me.
And in essence, fear is a rootof pride.
You're worried about whatpeople think, and it's really.
People could care lesssometimes about what you think
or say or whatever.
And so that's it for me, right.
Tonya Shellnutt (23:57):
Chris, how about you?
I mean, I mean, you know, Iknow that you also were fearful
of sharing this with people.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Um, and you know, talk a little bit about that
with our audience and and whyit's helpful to talk about it um
, well, because I think that ina lot of ways, fear leads to
anger, right, and I can say thatyou know, bravado, anger, you
(24:41):
know speaking out and kind ofbeing more assertive about it as
opposed to being moreempathetic towards it, right,
and I think that that is the waythat I would characterize
myself before I came to know theLord, right?
I mean, I still think peoplethink I'm angry all the time
(25:03):
anyway, but I don't understandthat one from my perspective.
But you know, because I'll belike, really, you thought that
statement was anger, I don't.
I don't think they understand.
Tonya Shellnutt (25:18):
No, they just don't understand your direct
personality, which?
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I love.
I mean people think I'm likeshort, and direct and I am, and
so whatever, I guess, if thatmakes me angry.
But I think that those are, youknow, really important things
to remember, right, that youknow the fear might be the thing
that drives you to not sayanything about it, but at the
(25:44):
same time it can lead to otherthings, like we just said, right
that it manifests itself inways that you would never
imagine.
Tonya Shellnutt (25:52):
Right, and don't y'all think too that you
know, when you look at a culture, the culture of abortion, which
our society has normalized, it,you look at, you know one in
three women have been sexuallyabused, one in four men have
been sexually abused, but yetnobody talks about all of the
(26:16):
outcomes or what happens tothese people, the pain, the
hidden pain, right.
So talking about it is soimportant to me, which is why
I'm doing this podcast, why I'mbringing different conversations
and topics up, because I wantus to lean into the heavy
conversations, because I wantpeople to live in freedom and be
(26:39):
free.
And that actually leads me tothe next and the last question
that we're going to unpack today, and that is this God could
never forgive me for this, and Ithink that is one lie that has
a death hold on so many people.
(27:04):
And so, chris, I want you toshare about that, because not
only did you grow up in aCatholic faith there's some
rigidiosity in that but then youheld on to that for a long time
(27:25):
.
So let's unpack that a littlebit.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
she gives me the toughest questions, oh my gosh.
Well, you know.
Here's where I'm going to saythat the Lord is good, right,
and I think that, from my walkand the way that it was, you're
(27:51):
right.
I mean, I didn't really thinkanything of it at the time when
it happened, and yet once I cameto start to know Christ and I
was introduced and startedreading the Bible and knowing
everything that Jesus had donefor me, you have got to be able
to give that up to God and lethim heal that wound that you
(28:15):
have, because if you don't, it'sit's going to be life altering,
right?
And I think that I've.
I've seen people where they arewalking with the Lord and they
still have things that they havenot given over to the Lord to
heal and take care of.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
And those burdens that they carry with them do
affect them in every single way.
So the one thing that I can sayis that I think that that's
part of the key right Is to makesure that you're open and
honest with God and listen towhat he says, right, and if he
says you need to go and speak toa room full of 400 women and
(28:55):
tell them about your story, youbetter be getting up there and
telling your story, right,because these are the things
that will help you to continueto move forward.
You know we've been doing asermon series about being
grateful.
Well, I shouldn't say it'sabout being grateful.
Last week's sermon was aboutbeing you know, not complaining
(29:19):
right To show gratefulness andjoy to the Lord, and I, as we
went through that in our latestBible study this week, I kept
thinking to myself about thecircumstance right, it's not
something that I should begrateful for, but what God's
done with it is something that Iabsolutely should be grateful
(29:41):
for, because it has given me anopportunity to be able to speak
about things that you know mostwomen don't want to talk about.
That's right.
And how it's.
Life changed for me.
You know that when I did givemy life over to the Lord that he
forgave this sin, both of themRight.
So, and it's, you know, if it'ssomething that's stuck in my
(30:06):
head that you know well, howcould he forgive me?
You know, I just have to lookat everything that he's forgiven
.
You know how rich we can be asa people.
Tonya Shellnutt (30:17):
Catherine, I want you to unpack this last
question that I gave to Chris aswell, and that is God could
never forgive me for this.
Share with our audience whatthat lie did to you and how God
worked through you to overcomethat.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, I think that's a typical that is probably the
number one lie thatpost-abortive women think is
that God could never forgive me,because it's such a horrendous
act that a woman can do to herchild.
But for me it's like anythingthat and we've already touched
on that when you.
(30:59):
Well, first of all, jesus islight, and I think about 1 John
you know that says Jesus islight and there is no darkness
in him.
So, as the church and I thinkTanya, I'm so grateful that
you're doing something like this, a podcast, and Chris is
speaking out, I'm speaking out,we're being, we're given
(31:21):
platforms to speak God's truth,and so part of that 1 John
passages is that if we are lyingand we don't have, so for
number one, god is light andthere is no darkness in him.
And if we confess our sins,he's faithful and just to
(31:44):
forgive us of our sins and tocleanse us from all sin.
But if we claim we haven'tsinned or we haven't forgived
ourselves, then we're not livingin the light, we're not living
in the truth, and so for me, andthen, in essence, we're like
making God out to be a liar, andthen, in essence, we're like
making God out to be a liar.
So it really drove the pointhome for me when someone said to
(32:07):
me well, you can't forgiveyourself.
Then it's like well then, god,you know God, that's the whole
point of the cross, and Jesusdied for all sin.
And so, just remembering thatand allowing that for myself, I
had to process that and I wentoh wow, I don't want this to be
about me, and it is humbling toknow that Christ died for all of
(32:28):
our sins and we just have tokeep speaking the truth and
unveiling this dark secret thatkeeps women and men in bondage,
and I think, as the church, weneed to rise up and talk more
about these particular topics.
So I thank you, tanya, fortouching on a lot of topics,
(32:48):
including abortion.
Tonya Shellnutt (32:50):
Yeah Well, I just want to thank you, ladies,
for your courage and bravery forcoming on to the show.
As we wrap up today, I want toencourage our listeners to go to
wwwTanyaShelnuttcom anddownload the five-day healing
cleanse workbook.
Leave us a five-star review.
It helps us get hope out faster.
And if anybody wants to connectwith Chris or Catherine, email
(33:14):
me and I will get you in touchwith them.
Thank you, ladies.
I appreciate your courage andbravery and I look forward to
seeing what God is going to dowith this and all the
technological difficulties wehad as well.
Hey.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
Tonya can I throw something out there?
Yes, so, as we've done thesetwo, these last two things, I've
looked at, you know, my Bibleand the concordance for things
about courage, and I just wantto read this one.
It's Psalms 138.3.
On the day I called, youanswered me, you made me bold,
(33:51):
with strength in my soul,because I think that that is
exactly what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yes, so we're covering this topic.
Tonya Shellnutt (33:59):
Amen, amen.
All right, ladies.
Well, thank you so much.
Appreciate you and we'll chatsoon.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Thank you for joining us here on Courageous
Overcomers with Tonya Shellnutt.
Please remember to follow, likeand share this podcast.
To find out more about Tonya,go to her website at
tonyashellnutt.
com, or to ask a question aboutanything you've heard on today's
show.
Leave us a five-star review andyour message or email at tonya
at tonyashellnutt.
com.
(34:29):
Remember that'sS-H-E-L-L-N-U-T-T.
This podcast is produced by BobSlone Audio Productions.
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