July 14, 2025 • 43 mins
Your digital world is uniquely yours – a personalized reality shaped by the mysterious forces of algorithms that decide what you see online. But have you ever wondered why your feed looks nothing like your friend's, despite similar interests?
Matt Watts' fascinating podcast Watts On Your Screen explores this digital divergence through conversations with people navigating their own algorithmic experiences.
For independent creators like Matt, platforms supporting Podcasting 2.0 features offer exciting possibilities. The discussion explores how features like chapters, transcripts, comments, and the upcoming Alternate Enclosure tag for video create richer listening experiences while keeping content within the open podcasting ecosystem. We also examine publisher feeds within TrueFans that help independent creators with multiple shows increase discoverability without sacrificing their independence.
Also discussed in this episode:
- What is an independent creator? Claire shares her criteria.
- How podcasters can use the Podroll feature and Publisher Feeds to aid discovery.
- What is the Alternate Enclosure and how can it be used?
- What does Podcast Standards Project certification actually mean?
- Wider support for the Funding tag.
What strange rabbit holes has your algorithm sent you down? We'd love to know what unique content appears on your screen that others might never see. Share your experiences in the comments on TrueFans.
Listen to Watts on Your Screen here
Find TrueFans here
Music: How It Is from Ketsa Music
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Read: Creators Blog
Recommendations: Creators Podroll
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Watts (00:06):
to see that happening unfolding in my own
home community and to then beable to so soon after it blown
up in local groups, get them andtalk to them, I enjoyed greatly
.
It was like I was living mybest.
Louis Theroux impression.
Claire Waite Brown (00:24):
The picture of a podcaster as a nosy true
crime detective getting in theway.
That's a slightly frustratingstereotype that I've seen out
there.
Sam Sethi (00:36):
So your podroll is things that you recommend.
Now you can recommend your ownshows.
That's not a problem at all,right?
Invariably, what's nice to dois recommend other people's
shows, but with a publisher feedthey are your shows only,
they're not somebody else's.
And what's really interesting?
Let's say you started a fifthshow, Claire, and I was
following your publisher feed.
When that fifth show gets added, I also get a notification that
(01:01):
you've added a new show to yourfeed.
Claire Waite Brown (01:04):
Welcome to Creators from TrueFans.
I'm independent podcaster,Claire Waite Brown.
Sam Sethi (01:11):
And I'm Sam Sethi, the CEO of TrueFans.
Claire Waite Brown (01:13):
Each episode , we'll chat with an independent
creator, whether a podcaster ormusician, about their creative
experiences.
Sam Sethi (01:22):
And we'll answer questions from independent
creators about the TrueFansfeatures that can help them with
discovery, interactivity andmonetization.
Claire Waite Brown (01:31):
We'll get interactive and see what our
listeners have been saying inthe comments and super comments.
Sam Sethi (01:37):
And discuss what's happening in the wider world.
That could be a benefit toindependent creators.
Hi Claire, Hi Sam, this weekour featured independent podcast
is from Matt Watts and it'scalled Watts on your Screen?
Here's Claire and Matt'sinterview.
Claire Waite Brown (01:55):
I'm here with Matt Watts.
Hi Matt, how are you?
Matt Watts (01:59):
I'm good.
Thank you, Very excited to behere.
Claire Waite Brown (02:01):
Brilliant.
Start by telling me what's thename of your show and what is it
all about.
Matt Watts (02:08):
So the show's called Watts On your Screen, what's,
as in my surname, because Icouldn't resist the pun, and
it's all about the fact that wea lot of us spend an awful
amount of time on the internetthese days, but we don't really
talk about what we see on there,and when you do, you start to
realise that we see completelydifferent things.
Even if you're very similarpeople, very similar
(02:30):
demographics and interests, whatyou see on your screen might be
wildly different to someoneelse.
Claire Waite Brown (02:36):
Yeah, I have personal experience of that.
My husband and I both watch acertain soap opera and he always
knows the plots because hekeeps getting shown stuff from
that soap opera.
But I never get shown stufffrom that soap opera.
Matt Watts (02:52):
That is so peculiar again that just that sends my
mind racing of why is that?
What is it you're doing or whatis it he's doing that is
causing that?
Claire Waite Brown (03:03):
Yeah, exactly Okay.
So why did you want to startthis particular podcast?
Matt Watts (03:09):
Just out of pure curiosity, conversations like
this.
About a year before the podcaststarted.
It was just a WhatsApp groupthat I called Internet Diet and
just because I was intrigued bythis idea, every week on a
Sunday, all of the people whoI'd talked into joining the
group would post a little voicenote saying what they'd seen on
(03:34):
their screen this week and we'dall kind of compare and they
were interesting synchronicities.
Some people got some of thesame stuff and assumed that that
was the mainstream, thateveryone was seeing this, and
then some people would havesomething wildly different.
And you go well, what's causedthat?
And we tried to pick apart theway that some of the algorithms
(03:58):
would detect whether you're in arelationship or not and whether
that would cause you to see acertain thing or what the
advertisers had assumed aboutyou from what you like.
That resulted in the verystrange moment where I just got
the complete reinforcement, overand over again, of content
which was about 9-11, which wasvery strange.
(04:20):
Every video on Instagram that Iwould look at would be a video
about the events of the 11th ofSeptember 2001 and because I was
so curious about it, I wouldwatch every one of them all the
way through because I'd go why,why is this here and doing that?
It would just reinforce it andreinforce it.
Until my phone thought that theonly thing I was interested in
(04:41):
was 9-11.
I thought I'm either going togo mad or turn this into a
podcast, and I went for thepodcast.
Claire Waite Brown (04:47):
Good choice.
So tell me a bit about yourformat, which I find very
interesting, and your process ofwork, from choosing which
stories you're going to tell andthen actual recording,
production, promotion, all ofthat side of things.
Matt Watts (05:05):
So, starting with where the ideas come from, it
generally is conversations likethe one we've just had about
soap operas of going okay, I'vespoken to someone in real life,
I'll go away, I'll do a bit ofresearch and find out if there
is something there and work outwho a good interviewee would be.
Sometimes it's someone thatI've had the conversation with.
(05:27):
They're already the perfectinterviewee and I ask them if
they'll be up for it.
Sometimes it's a case ofworking out how to find someone
like the.
The latest episode the wikipediaone it was doing a little bit
of investigative work, of goingI wonder if I can find someone
near enough who I can talk to inperson, and it turned out one
(05:49):
of the biggest Wikipedia editorsin the UK.
I found him by looking at therecord of people who edit pages
about places near me inNottingham and his name kept
coming up and it turned out hewas the kind of the perfect
interviewee for this and he onlylived about a mile away yeah
(06:11):
yeah, it was good fun as well.
You know you feel like adetective.
So far I've managed to do all11 episodes talking to people in
person, so I particularly enjoythat.
I think it probably makes thesound quality a little worse
because I sometimes end up inslightly echoey rooms talking to
people, but I think theconversation I feel like I could
(06:31):
connect with someone a littlebit better.
Claire Waite Brown (06:33):
I like the difference in sound, I like that
I can tell that you're in theplace with the person, and also
I like the way that thatcontrasts with then you come in
at times with explanations.
Matt Watts (06:48):
Yeah, so in some ways it's a relatively
straightforward interview show.
I suppose the fact that Isometimes butt in the kind of
the me afterwards with avoiceover to explain certain
elements is partly because inthe moment I don't like to stop
the flow of a conversation.
So I've recently done amaster's in documentary
(07:10):
journalism.
We're kind of taught, whenyou're interviewing someone,
tell them to say the questionback to you in their answer and
suddenly that means that it'snot conversational.
It doesn't sound the way thatthey would naturally say it.
So I like to to avoid that andthen if in the edit I go, okay,
there were some bits that youprobably need some context of
(07:32):
what this means, then I'll justdrop it in as a voiceover and
I'll reorder stuff as well,because I don't.
I think there are some podcastsout there that are just hit
record and then the wholeconversation is just there and
that can really work for someshows, I think.
But I like to tighten it up andreorder some of the things so
(07:55):
that it's accessible enoughwithout losing that
conversational tone.
Claire Waite Brown (08:00):
I think it has a radio feel.
Because of that it feels like acomplete program and because
each time the theme is the sameas in the internet, but it's
always a very different story, avery different guest.
It can be a very differentplace that you're all your
favorite.
Tell me about some of yourguests or your stories that you
particularly like.
Matt Watts (08:20):
It's funny, you were just saying about how every
single one is quite different.
So I suppose the two I'd pickare the two most tonally
(08:40):
disparate, which would be.
I was very excited to have thethe good boys, as the group of
three lads we interviewed werewho were vigilante pedophile
hunters, who had caught analleged predator who was their
(09:01):
own maths teacher, who was alsoa teacher at that school when I
was a student there.
I've always been intrigued bythese people, the kind of people
who do this stuff, because Ithink they're fascinating in
their varied motivations forgenuine justice.
Internet views, this kind ofpower play fantasy.
(09:25):
To see that happening unfoldingin my own home community and to
then be able to, so soon afterit had blown up in local groups,
get them and talk to them, Ienjoyed greatly.
It was like I was living mybest Louis Theroux impression
and I enjoyed how controversiala subject that was and I was
(09:48):
glad that I didn't make too muchof a fool of myself when
talking to them because it was adifficult energy to handle in
the room.
And then, on the completeopposite end of the spectrum, I
spoke to a really lovely I wantto say vicar, but he insists
that that is not the correctterm a reverend in sandwich who
(10:11):
I was aware of because about 15years ago one of the first
podcasts I listened to he madeand it was about wallace
presence to chat to and gettingto go down to sandwich in kent
(10:31):
by the seaside and spend myafternoon talking to him about
his life online in hisabsolutely beautiful.
Again I want to say vicarage I,I can't get away from it.
Claire Waite Brown (10:44):
You can't say reverendage.
Matt Watts (10:46):
No, I can't.
What is it Anyway?
His house that's attached tothe church.
It was really lovely, and Ithink I managed to capture that
on tape as well.
Claire Waite Brown (10:58):
Yeah, no, you definitely do.
You've got the ambience and theatmosphere, and those two were
very different atmospheres.
You ask and you've already saidthat this started from the
WhatsApp group, so you askpeople to contribute with ideas
how does that go?
Do people like to do that andget in touch with you?
Matt Watts (11:18):
So far.
It has been a little bit trickyto get that off the ground.
I think it can be difficult toget people to record themselves
if they're not someone who'sinterested in making podcasts or
media stuff.
I think that's quite a highbarrier to clear and,
interestingly, people send mestuff directly but not
(11:40):
necessarily want it to go on thepodcast.
But it's still really usefulbecause that's leading to my
next episodes.
I just received an eight-minutevoice note from someone who I
know, who is a doctor, exploringall of these different ways
that the internet has impactedtheir profession.
That's fascinating and reallylovely because it's someone I
(12:02):
haven't spoken to that much fora while, but it started
listening and, when I want tocontribute and felt like, sent
me a little podcast back.
So it's a conversation.
But getting people who I'venever met to send a voice note
that details something quiteintimate, quite intimate, which
(12:27):
is what you are privatelylooking at, what your computer
thinks of you is um, is tricky.
But I'm hoping, as I gainpopularity, more listeners, that
that'll start to come yeah, andtrust.
Claire Waite Brown (12:38):
Trust in you as well yes tomorrow and they
think they feel that they cancommunicate their story to you
and it will be in a safe place.
Another thing what about money,Do you?
Matt Watts (12:50):
get any of that.
At the moment, no, but also atthe moment I haven't tried to.
But I both want to prove tomyself and to listeners that I'm
reliable, I can make thisconsistently, it'll be good
quality, and that it issomething that they're
interested in.
I'm at the 11 episode mark now,so maybe I'm a bit closer to
(13:14):
deciding to start doing that,but I just haven't felt that it
was the right time so far.
Claire Waite Brown (13:24):
We're going to talk about listener support
in a minute, which I think iscould be useful.
So, yeah, I'm going to move onto my podcasting 2.0 because,
TrueFans, it's a 2.0 app andlots of lovely features.
What do you know about thepodcasting 2.0 features?
Matt Watts (13:39):
I like to think I know a fair bit because I've
listened to, I think, themajority of your podcasting 2.0
show.
Claire Waite Brown (13:46):
What a clever person you are, well done
.
Matt Watts (13:49):
So I've got chapters in there and transcript.
I think I've done as well as my, my homework from the homework
episodes yeah, I think those arethe main ones I've engaged with
so far.
Claire Waite Brown (14:02):
What I was thinking about for you was
comments and whether listenersmight be more inclined to write
a comment within the TrueFansapp than to call the voice line,
and it might just be a matterof an introduction, you know
they might feel happier to do itthat way.
(14:22):
So I'm going to encouragelisteners if they're listening
on TrueFans or on, for example,fountain, you can do the same
thing to send Matt comments thatway, because you'd love to hear
.
Matt Watts (14:34):
I'd love the sound of that.
Yeah, in fact, even under thisepisode, I'd really love to hear
what your unique internetexperience is.
What do you think you see onyour phone that no one else is
seeing, and why?
That'd be really interestingcool.
Claire Waite Brown (14:50):
Yes, let's do that.
Let's get some comments on thisone.
The other thing I mentionedabout listener support, and this
is something that is reallyeasily done within TrueFans and
with other podcasts in 2.0 apps,and I have been as I do with
every show that I interview onCreators streaming a very small
amount.
I've been streaming five setsper minute when I listen to your
(15:14):
show and I did attach a littlepayment to the comment.
Thank you, so I put a comment inthe Wikipedia episode so people
can see that comment from meand go oh okay, I'll do that as
well, I'll comment as well.
Thanks so much, matt.
It's been lovely to speak withyou.
How can people find you andyour show?
Matt Watts (15:37):
so you can find me on instagram.
It's at matt wattsmakesmakesdocs, and I also have
a web address with the same name, so wwwmattwattsmakesdocscouk,
and the show is Watts on yourscreen.
You can find it on TrueFans andanywhere else that you listen
(15:59):
to podcasts.
Claire Waite Brown (16:00):
Super.
Thank you very much.
Sam Sethi (16:02):
Thank you.
I like the call to action inthat interview.
So, as Matt said, do pleasecomment on this episode with
what you're seeing on yourscreen, why you think that is,
perhaps if you're baffled as towhy that is and anything that
Matt might want to explorefurther.
Claire Waite Brown (16:19):
I really look forward to hearing what
everybody wants to share.
Matt talks more about how hemanages to get this show made
around his day job and aboutwhat frustrates and excites him
about podcasting in general.
At the end of this episode ofCreators it's super easy to find
what's on your screen onTrueFans right now, because it
(16:41):
is featured in the banner at thetop of the home screen and in
the podcasts we're loving list,which is also on the home screen
.
If you'd like to chat with usabout your independent podcast
or your music, send a comment orsuper comment in TrueFans to
any creators episode by clickingon the speech bubble icon or on
(17:04):
the comments tab.
The comments tab.
Sam, a couple of weeks ago inepisode four, we spoke about
what we mean by independent andI've kind of honed it down since
then.
Do you want to hear how Iframed it?
Sam Sethi (17:23):
Absolutely Sure.
Claire Waite Brown (17:24):
Okay, so this is how I've honed it down.
I want to see what you think.
Shows that are not made bystroke for, or financially
controlled by, an organizationsuch as a publishing company,
production company or a brand,so that's one.
Shows not conglomerated into alarger group that's two, and
(17:47):
then three.
Shows not fronted by a highprofile celebrity for whom the
podcast is one of many revenuestreams.
Now that one.
I did steal the terminologyfrom the Independent Podcast
Awards, so I hope Em doesn'tmind me appropriating it.
What do you think, sam?
Anything to add?
Sam Sethi (18:06):
No, I think that's really good.
I think that independent reallyis.
When you look at Matt trying tofit it into his daytime job,
when you look at many otherpodcasters who are trying to
squeeze in both the recording,the time to get guests, the time
to promote, it is difficult andit doesn't mean that you're not
there to make a financial gain.
(18:28):
If you can make money frombeing supported by somebody or
getting host-read ads, that'sgreat, but that doesn't make it
non-independent.
So financial isn't the reasonwhy it's not independent.
But you're right, it's to dowith not part of a larger group
and having a massive team behindyou, and many celebrities do
that, so they're not independent.
Claire Waite Brown (18:47):
Yeah, okay, good, good, good.
Sam Sethi (18:49):
I shall pin that to my notice board to remind me
every time it did make me think,though, when you were talking
about this, that independentpodcasters really should be
doing pod role swaps.
And then the other one.
I did think that wouldn't stillmake them.
You know, a non-independentgrouping is to create a
(19:10):
publisher feed.
So, for example, claire, you'vegot how many podcasts now?
Claire Waite Brown (19:15):
Well, I've got the two that are completely
my own and the two that I dowith you.
Sam Sethi (19:19):
So if you put those into a publisher feed, you could
also have people follow thatpublisher feed on TrueFans and
any one of those four podcasts.
If they're ever updated, peoplewill get to have a notification
.
So I think there are ways thatpeople can act bigger while
remaining independent.
Claire Waite Brown (19:39):
Oh, yeah, okay, I like it.
I think that would be a goodone for my friend, sarah Ferris,
because she's got lots of showsand she works very hard on them
.
And I did do this as a littletest.
I made myself a publisher and Iput my two shows in it and what
happens is your publisher namecomes up on the screen of your
show, so you can click on thatand see the other shows that are
(20:00):
under that publisher, which inthis case was me.
Sam Sethi (20:03):
So the difference between a pod role and a
publisher, I just want to makeone point.
So your pod role is things thatyou recommend.
Now you can recommend your ownshows.
That's not a problem at all,right?
Invariably, what's nice to dois recommend other people's
shows.
But with a publisher feed theyare your shows only, they're not
somebody else's.
And what's really interestinglet's say you started a fifth
show, claire, and I wasfollowing your publisher feed.
(20:25):
When that fifth show gets added, I also get a notification that
you've added a new show to yourfeed.
This is how Wondery does it,for example they have I don't
know 300 shows, right, andanytime they add a new one to
that publisher feed, I, as afollower of Wondery, get an
update, even if I didn't knowthat there's a new show coming
(20:46):
out.
Claire Waite Brown (20:46):
Yeah, okay, so podcasters can create their
own publisher feed withinTrueFans once they've claimed
their shows on their creator'sdashboard.
I've done it.
I can't remember how, but itmust've been easy, because I did
it.
Sam Sethi (21:02):
It is fairly easy.
Claire Waite Brown (21:03):
Everything's easy on TrueFans it's what we
try and do.
Sam Sethi (21:06):
Yes, Brilliant.
Claire Waite Brown (21:08):
Thank you so much for that.
Sam Sethi (21:10):
Questions.
Claire, what's the questionthis week?
What are we going to talk about?
Claire Waite Brown (21:14):
Well, without sounding like I'm saying
a swear word here video.
So many people are doing videoas a separate entity to their
audio, perhaps, but I believethat with Podcasting 2.0, there
will be a way to do this withoutuploading things twice.
(21:35):
Is that correct?
Sam Sethi (21:37):
Yeah, it's a little bit later than I'd like, but the
Podcasting 2.0 community hasfinally wrapped their hands
around the fact that we mightneed to support video to curtail
the Spotify and YouTube sort ofmonopoly.
So a whole group of us have gottogether recently and said look
, one way to do this would be touse the alternative enclosure
(21:59):
tag.
The way it works in RSS is yourprimary enclosure is what
contains your MP3 audio.
That's generally how RSSssworks, and what we've now done
is creating a secondary audiolisting in your rss feed and
that's called the alternativeenclosure, and in that you could
put different versions of youraudio higher quality, lower
(22:20):
quality.
But what we are doing now andagreeing on and that's the main
thing is that we will put thevideo link in the alternative
enclosure, and we've done thatfor two reasons.
One, it means that all the appstoday won't get broken, because
if you don't support thealternative enclosure, you just
don't read it, and it means thatApple Podcasts, spotify and
(22:40):
YouTube, which ingest RSS, alsowon't break.
But if your app, like TrueFans,does support the alternative
enclosure, then you'll see alittle video icon appear on the
episode page and it allows youto switch between the audio and
video.
And yes, you're correct.
It means that you can uploadthe video, if you want, to your
(23:01):
host and put it into your RSSfeed and then, basically, that's
it.
Now.
The next stage is what you'reasking for is can we upload the
video once and then the hostgrab the audio from it as well
automatically?
And that's called HLS, and thatstands for HTTP live streaming.
It's an Apple standard.
(23:22):
Now, without getting technical,all it means is that we can
grab your video and then stripit out and just use the audio as
well.
This is exactly what Spotifydoes today.
If you upload your video toSpotify for creators, they will
take the video and put that asan option, but they will use the
audio from the video instead ofthe one in your RSS feed,
(23:46):
instead of the one in your RSSfeed.
The goal eventually, claire, isthat we, as podcasting 2.0 apps
, should all enable audio andvideo for creators if they want
video, rather than force them tohave to have their audio in the
podcast app and their videosomewhere else.
Claire Waite Brown (24:03):
And could you have those as separate if
you're using this alternativeenclosure, so your audio file
could be one audio file and yourvideo file could be a different
video file.
So you don't do the strippingthe audio of the video.
Sam Sethi (24:17):
Yes, completely, there's no pre-requirement.
Claire Waite Brown (24:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, and hosting
companies are not supportingthis yet, or are some of them?
Sam Sethi (24:27):
There are.
So Blueberry supports this nowand Transistor just announced
that they're going to supportthis.
We haven't yet got Buzzsproutor Captivate to do it yet, but
you know it's coming.
Fountain Blue, which is the newRSS Blue renamed, they support
video.
So there are a half a dozen,let's say, companies now that do
(24:49):
support the alternativeenclosure and video as well.
I reckon by the end of thisyear all hosts will support it.
And then it comes down to thequestion of do you want to be a
video podcaster or do you wantto be a pure audio podcaster
those that want to go and puttheir face front and center on
video.
You'll have an alternative toYouTube, which will be within
(25:11):
your podcast host.
Claire Waite Brown (25:13):
Yeah, it's a choice, isn't it?
And it's a choice that will bemade easier for people, which we
can't complain about.
Sam Sethi (25:19):
Video has a place, don't get me wrong but it's not
for everyone.
Claire Waite Brown (25:23):
Okay, cool.
Sam Sethi (25:25):
It's time for that fan box, Claire.
What have we heard from ourlisteners?
Claire Waite Brown (25:30):
We have heard from Clayton M Coke, who
we featured in episode six,talking about his podcast called
the Cashflow Show, and heposted last week.
This is what he said it was arare pleasure to be invited onto
the TrueFans Creator podcastwith the ever-wonderful Clare
(25:51):
Waight-Brown and the voice ofSam Settling.
Oh yes.
Sam Sethi (25:55):
Just a talking head over here.
Claire Waite Brown (25:56):
Well, only because I interviewed Clayton.
Sam Sethi (25:59):
Yeah no, you do all the work, I just sit back right.
That's all it is.
Claire Waite Brown (26:04):
Clayton also said.
When it comes to podcasts, Iusually spend most of my time
asking the questions, so now Iget the opportunity to state my
case as to why podcastingmatters and why payment for
those who provide podcastingservices needs to be a visible
part of the discussion, and thisis an interesting one.
(26:26):
David John Clark made thisinteresting point about a
comment that Clayton made onthat episode, and what Clayton
said was every podcast that youdo in 50 years time, if it's
stored properly, somebody willbe able to find that.
And David said the commentsabout your podcast being
(26:46):
available in 50 years time.
Fantastic, though I feel weneed hosts by which he means
hosting companies to consideroptions for the inevitable death
of clients, ie the podcasters.
Without prior preparation, thepodcast of a deceased client
will likely disappear.
A little morbid, I know, butworth thinking about.
(27:07):
I think it is worth thinkingabout.
I mean, I don't know putsomething in your will and
demand that your family continuepaying for your hosting so your
episodes can stay out there.
Sam Sethi (27:17):
It's interesting.
This dilemma has been addressedby Facebook in the past, when
people were saying well, whathappens when somebody dies on
their Facebook account?
Does Facebook remove it Becausethere's no payment?
But you know what happens tothat account?
Can the family access it, canthey maintain it, or will it
(27:37):
just become dormant?
And actually, facebook to theircredit which is not something I
often say enable you to go intoyour user settings and allocate
somebody else on Facebook asthe person that will have access
to your account upon your death, I guess, because there's a
payment element required by thehosting company that they well,
(28:00):
they could do it in one or twoways.
They could say look, there's noadditional cost because you're
not publishing new episodes, sowe'll just do it for free, but
it'll be marked as a dormantaccount.
Or, you know, they could say no, in order to store your content
in perpetuity, we need to getpaid.
So they might have a reducedamount, right?
(28:23):
Let's say, not the normalamount for all publishing new
episodes, but maybe a smalleramount for maintaining the
account.
I don't know.
This opens up the question aboutthe podcast license, right?
So this show, like many shows,we have copyright for what we
create, whether we place alicense on this show or not.
The thing I'm always going onabout people adding a license to
(28:45):
their podcast, which peopledon't do and they don't think
about is that in the future,could someone take this show and
remix it, could someone takethis show and turn it into AI?
I'm just saying that in thefuture, when you're gone, if you
don't have a license on yourpodcast, then basically it's a
free for all.
It could be.
(29:06):
Oh well, I have all rightsreserved.
That's my default copyright.
Somebody might argue, but youdidn't explicitly say that I
couldn't remix it, so creativecommons licenses, which is what
we use in the podcasting 2.0community, are very good to set.
Now, again, sadly, not allhosts support the license tag
(29:27):
and that means that you can'tset your own license through a
user interface on your host.
But again, in TrueFans, if youclaim your podcast, you can go
into your podcast show page inyour dashboard and you can set a
license, and that license willmean that that is then set with
your show and added to yourTrueFans rssSS feed.
Claire Waite Brown (29:49):
Okay, brilliant.
We might have to look into moredetail on that one.
I'm thinking this would be alovely thing for anybody to let
us know their comments and theirthoughts on this topic.
So do leave a super comment ora comment using the speech
bubble icon or the little tabthat says comments.
The speech bubble icon or thelittle tab that says comments On
(30:17):
to things we've spotted in theworld of podcasting.
I picked this one up fromPodNews Daily and it attracted
me because it was about hostingproviders being certified by the
Podcast Standards Project,which I know a bit about from
talking with you for Podcasting2.0.
In practice, the hostingproviders that have recently
been certified are IONO, podhome, pod2 and Alitu, some of which
(30:42):
I've heard of.
Now, as James says here, thePodcast Standards Project, the
group, aims to advocate for newfeatures that improve the open
podcasting ecosystem for bothlisteners and creators.
So for our listeners, who maybe host with some of those
companies, what does thiscertification mean?
What are they now doing?
Sam Sethi (31:03):
Yeah, let's take a step back.
Claire, you did the brilliantpodcasting 2.0 in practice.
Right, I did, and you wentthrough every tag that exists
currently out there pretty much,and those were created by the
podcasting 2.0 group of geeks.
I'm one of them, jamesCridland's another, and there
are many others in there.
(31:23):
We come up with crazy, crazynew tags or updates to tags, and
now all of those then getthrown against the wall and some
of those stick.
So TrueFound, for example,generally supports nearly every
tag.
Other podcast apps don't supporteverything, but they support
many of them.
And, in the same way, podcasthosts support some and not all,
(31:47):
and therefore, when we talkabout, oh, that host doesn't
support this feature or that tag, then what we're saying is it's
not fair.
You now have to pick one hostabove the other if you want
certain things to work.
Ergo, the license tag we justmentioned a minute ago.
But the podcast standardsproject think of it as the
marketing arm of podcasting 2.0.
So it's all the hosts and allthe apps get together and we say
(32:10):
, right, here's the 30 crazytags that currently exist.
Which of those are we going tocertify as a must be used by the
host and must be used by theapps, and so they start off with
some of the easier ones, likethe person tag and chapters and
transcripts, and then over timewe add more of the existing tags
(32:33):
into the certified bucket.
And so in the case of Podhome,pod2, alitu, they all support
the first five tags that existthat have been certified by the
Podcast Standards Project andover time, the goal is that the
podcast standards project willlook at each individual tag
that's been created and say, yep, I think now we should all
(32:57):
support this tag.
So the example was earlier thealternative enclosure tag.
So now what we're pushing foris the new level of
certification and then, in orderto qualify for that level of
certification, hosts and appsmust support the alternative
enclosure.
So it's going to be a bit of amarketing stick and carrot
(33:21):
capability from the podcaststandards project because
there'll be badges.
That's what will eventuallyhappen.
There will be a badge that ison your host's website and a
badge that's on your app thatsays we are podcast standards
project 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0,whatever level certification,
and if you're not at the latestlevel of certification, people,
(33:44):
users, fans might say I mightswitch to a different host or I
might switch to a different appthat supports the features that
I want.
So, yes, the podcast standardsproject is the marketing arm of
podcasting 2.0 and the geekycome up with crazy tag is the
podcast index.
Claire Waite Brown (34:02):
Okay, cool, so I'm going to put you on the
spot now, sam.
What are those five tags for1.0 certification?
Sam Sethi (34:11):
Okay.
So one of those is the TXT tag,which again, is not used by end
users.
It's used by hosts to verifythat the owner of the podcast
says who they are and then thehost can verify using a unique
ID.
The locked tag was anotherhost-driven thing.
(34:32):
One of the things they wantedto do was prevent people moving
you from their existing host toanother host.
So if you then put in thelocked tag, it would mean no
other host could migrate youacross, right?
So those two are veryhost-driven and everyone went oh
really, that's not reallyhelping users.
(34:53):
So then the next one was theperson tag, Then we had
transcripts and then we hadchapters.
They're the five tags.
Claire Waite Brown (35:02):
Brilliant.
Oh good, so those three arethree of my favorite.
You know my other favorite isPodroll, but I do like those
three.
What people can do is head overto podcasting2.org, which we
mentioned last week, and on thatwebsite you've got this lovely
display of hosting companies.
You can click on the hostingcompany and see which features
(35:25):
they actually support.
Sam Sethi (35:27):
You can also, claire, and you may not have even seen
this yourself on the TrueFansapp, you will see a menu item
called hosts and if you click onthat, it will show you all the
hosts that currently exist andit will show you what features
they currently support and ifthey are a member of the podcast
(35:48):
standards project, if they'recertified.
Claire Waite Brown (35:50):
Oh brilliant .
I have actually seen that, butI haven't clicked on it.
Sam Sethi (35:56):
You know me, Claire, we've done it all.
Claire Waite Brown (35:58):
Brilliant.
Okay, what have you seen out?
Sam Sethi (36:02):
and about podcasting Well, one of the things that
everyone's getting very excitedabout is monetization, right.
So we've had a lot ofconversations about
micropayments and wallets andpeople are still a little bit
confused.
So one of the more simpler waysto earn money as an independent
podcast creator is to enablethe funding tag.
For example, with your podcast,claire, you might say I would
(36:26):
like you to click on this linkand go to buy me a coffee, and
then somebody could buy you a $5coffee or a £5 coffee and that
will go into your account,whether that's a Stripe account
or wherever it goes.
More and more hosts and moreand more apps are now supporting
the funding tag, and NPR, whichis the American National Public
(36:48):
Radio, has recently addedsupport for the funding tag
across all its shows and ofcourse, that means that now more
apps like Pocket Cast, TrueFans, fountain, Podcast Addict and
TenorPod all support the fundingtag.
And again this goes back to Ithink it will be in the next
iteration of the PodcastStandards Project certification
(37:11):
next iteration of the podcaststandards project certification
that the pod role, you'll beglad to know, and the funding
tag will be the next level ofcertification that all hosts
have to achieve in order to getcertified.
If you have a link to patreon ormaybe buy me a coffee and
that's in your rss feed, we willshow that it's a hand with a
(37:32):
little heart on it in TrueFans.
You click on it and it willtake you to wherever you want to
get paid as an independentpodcast creator.
But not everybody wants to openup a patreon account or a buy
me a coffee account or amemberful account.
So what we've done is, if youdon't have anything, your
funding tag is blank.
There is no URL.
(37:53):
Then the user, when they clickon that heart with a hand
underneath it, will actuallythen pop up in TrueFans and say
well, do you want to pay me $3,$5, $10 or another amount that
you choose, and that money willgo into your TrueFans wallet
directly so we can support youin TrueFans if you don't have an
(38:14):
external funding tag.
Claire Waite Brown (38:15):
Perfect.
Yeah, we did talk in moredetail about that, especially
the TrueFans option in episodesix of Creators.
And for a little lesson infunding, you can listen into
episode 25 of Fan Zone, which iscalled Funding.
Sam Sethi (38:32):
And that's it for this week.
Claire, our audio is recordedand edited using Riverside, and
we're hosted by our friends atBuzzsprout.
Claire Waite Brown (38:40):
You can support this show by streaming
sats from your TrueFans wallet,or leave us a super comment or,
better still, become a monthlysupporter of the show or leave
us a super comment or, betterstill, become a monthly
supporter of the show If you'dlike to advertise or sponsor
this show.
please email me, sam, attruefansfm, for further details.
You can find out more about howto use the features we've
(39:01):
discussed today and others onthe TrueFans platform by
listening to our sister podcastFan Zone and, as Sam's been kind
enough to mention today, ifyou're keen to learn more about
Podcasting 2.0 in general, doplease check out my course-based
podcast called Podcasting 2.0in Practice.
Don't forget, you can keeplistening to hear more from this
(39:26):
episode's featured creator.
Matt Watts (39:29):
I am a complete one-man band, so all of it is me
I edit in Adobe Audition, justbecause that's what I've always
been used to and was taught touse, and unfortunately, no, it
is just quite time consuming andI prefer it to be time
consuming and get it the way Iwant it to be than to just put
(39:51):
it out.
I suppose this is partly why atthe moment it's monthly,
because it does take a couple ofdays to edit a whole episode,
as well as the finding thesubject going and doing the
interview on top of the day job.
Yeah, so probably I'm quiteslow, is the answer job.
Claire Waite Brown (40:13):
Yeah, so probably I'm quite slow is the
answer, but having thatflexibility to decide this is
how I'm going to do it, becausethis is how I can make it work
around everything else I'm doingand produce a very high quality
and entertaining product.
Let's go on to podcasting ingeneral, and I want to know what
is one thing that frustratesyou about podcasting or the
(40:33):
podcast industry and what is onething that excites you.
Matt Watts (40:38):
Part of it is the perception of podcasting,
because it's not a new mediumanymore, but it's still a
relative underdog medium.
Everything is lumped into one.
I think the majority of thepublic they see podcast as a
genre, not as a medium, and thatcan make it quite difficult to
(41:00):
explain what a wide variety ofshows there are out there and to
get people interested, partlybecause I think there was a
point in recent years where thepublic imagination of podcast
has become three people filmingthemselves on instagram sitting
around with microphones, with noformat, just chatting, usually
(41:28):
completely inanely, and that'sfrustrating because there's room
for that if people want tolisten to that.
But that's not what a podcastis and if I say to someone I've
got a podcast, I really don'twant them to imagine that yeah,
so that's frustrating.
I suppose the flip side of thatthe exciting thing is it's still
(41:49):
relatively young.
It still has the ability toprove itself as something else
and be completely free and open.
I can make what I wanted tomake because I was curious about
it and put it out and peopleare listening to it.
What a privilege, because doingthis master's degree, talking
to people who had to go throughmore official channels, you know
(42:12):
, start going through the BBC orsomewhere.
Not to disparage the BBC, Ireally love their podcasts and
I'd love to work there ifanyone's listening.
But it's very different.
You have to spend yearsgrafting at something that maybe
isn't what you want to make orhow you want to make it.
So I think it's still excitingthat we have that freedom.
Claire Waite Brown (42:35):
Yeah, completely agree.
That's.
One of my favorite things isthe fact that anyone can do
their thing and they can produceit and put it out there and
they don't have to go to agatekeeper.
It's a word we hear all thetime to say is this good enough,
will you let me do it?
And then the other thing I wasreminded of about the general
perception of podcasts andpodcasters is and this I see in
(42:59):
popular culture is the pictureof a podcaster as a nosy true
crime detective getting in theway.
That's a slightly frustratingstereotype that I've seen out
there.
to see that happening unfolding in my own
home community and to then beable to so soon after it blown
up in local groups, get them andtalk to them, I enjoyed greatly
.
It was like I was living mybest.
Louis Theroux impression.
Claire Waite Brown (00:24):
The picture of a podcaster as a nosy true
crime detective getting in theway.
That's a slightly frustratingstereotype that I've seen out
there.
Sam Sethi (00:36):
So your podroll is things that you recommend.
Now you can recommend your ownshows.
That's not a problem at all,right?
Invariably, what's nice to dois recommend other people's
shows, but with a publisher feedthey are your shows only,
they're not somebody else's.
And what's really interesting?
Let's say you started a fifthshow, Claire, and I was
following your publisher feed.
When that fifth show gets added, I also get a notification that
(01:01):
you've added a new show to yourfeed.
Claire Waite Brown (01:04):
Welcome to Creators from TrueFans.
I'm independent podcaster,Claire Waite Brown.
Sam Sethi (01:11):
And I'm Sam Sethi, the CEO of TrueFans.
Claire Waite Brown (01:13):
Each episode , we'll chat with an independent
creator, whether a podcaster ormusician, about their creative
experiences.
Sam Sethi (01:22):
And we'll answer questions from independent
creators about the TrueFansfeatures that can help them with
discovery, interactivity andmonetization.
Claire Waite Brown (01:31):
We'll get interactive and see what our
listeners have been saying inthe comments and super comments.
Sam Sethi (01:37):
And discuss what's happening in the wider world.
That could be a benefit toindependent creators.
Hi Claire, Hi Sam, this weekour featured independent podcast
is from Matt Watts and it'scalled Watts on your Screen?
Here's Claire and Matt'sinterview.
Claire Waite Brown (01:55):
I'm here with Matt Watts.
Hi Matt, how are you?
Matt Watts (01:59):
I'm good.
Thank you, Very excited to behere.
Claire Waite Brown (02:01):
Brilliant.
Start by telling me what's thename of your show and what is it
all about.
Matt Watts (02:08):
So the show's called Watts On your Screen, what's,
as in my surname, because Icouldn't resist the pun, and
it's all about the fact that wea lot of us spend an awful
amount of time on the internetthese days, but we don't really
talk about what we see on there,and when you do, you start to
realise that we see completelydifferent things.
Even if you're very similarpeople, very similar
(02:30):
demographics and interests, whatyou see on your screen might be
wildly different to someoneelse.
Claire Waite Brown (02:36):
Yeah, I have personal experience of that.
My husband and I both watch acertain soap opera and he always
knows the plots because hekeeps getting shown stuff from
that soap opera.
But I never get shown stufffrom that soap opera.
Matt Watts (02:52):
That is so peculiar again that just that sends my
mind racing of why is that?
What is it you're doing or whatis it he's doing that is
causing that?
Claire Waite Brown (03:03):
Yeah, exactly Okay.
So why did you want to startthis particular podcast?
Matt Watts (03:09):
Just out of pure curiosity, conversations like
this.
About a year before the podcaststarted.
It was just a WhatsApp groupthat I called Internet Diet and
just because I was intrigued bythis idea, every week on a
Sunday, all of the people whoI'd talked into joining the
group would post a little voicenote saying what they'd seen on
(03:34):
their screen this week and we'dall kind of compare and they
were interesting synchronicities.
Some people got some of thesame stuff and assumed that that
was the mainstream, thateveryone was seeing this, and
then some people would havesomething wildly different.
And you go well, what's causedthat?
And we tried to pick apart theway that some of the algorithms
(03:58):
would detect whether you're in arelationship or not and whether
that would cause you to see acertain thing or what the
advertisers had assumed aboutyou from what you like.
That resulted in the verystrange moment where I just got
the complete reinforcement, overand over again, of content
which was about 9-11, which wasvery strange.
(04:20):
Every video on Instagram that Iwould look at would be a video
about the events of the 11th ofSeptember 2001 and because I was
so curious about it, I wouldwatch every one of them all the
way through because I'd go why,why is this here and doing that?
It would just reinforce it andreinforce it.
Until my phone thought that theonly thing I was interested in
(04:41):
was 9-11.
I thought I'm either going togo mad or turn this into a
podcast, and I went for thepodcast.
Claire Waite Brown (04:47):
Good choice.
So tell me a bit about yourformat, which I find very
interesting, and your process ofwork, from choosing which
stories you're going to tell andthen actual recording,
production, promotion, all ofthat side of things.
Matt Watts (05:05):
So, starting with where the ideas come from, it
generally is conversations likethe one we've just had about
soap operas of going okay, I'vespoken to someone in real life,
I'll go away, I'll do a bit ofresearch and find out if there
is something there and work outwho a good interviewee would be.
Sometimes it's someone thatI've had the conversation with.
(05:27):
They're already the perfectinterviewee and I ask them if
they'll be up for it.
Sometimes it's a case ofworking out how to find someone
like the.
The latest episode the wikipediaone it was doing a little bit
of investigative work, of goingI wonder if I can find someone
near enough who I can talk to inperson, and it turned out one
(05:49):
of the biggest Wikipedia editorsin the UK.
I found him by looking at therecord of people who edit pages
about places near me inNottingham and his name kept
coming up and it turned out hewas the kind of the perfect
interviewee for this and he onlylived about a mile away yeah
(06:11):
yeah, it was good fun as well.
You know you feel like adetective.
So far I've managed to do all11 episodes talking to people in
person, so I particularly enjoythat.
I think it probably makes thesound quality a little worse
because I sometimes end up inslightly echoey rooms talking to
people, but I think theconversation I feel like I could
(06:31):
connect with someone a littlebit better.
Claire Waite Brown (06:33):
I like the difference in sound, I like that
I can tell that you're in theplace with the person, and also
I like the way that thatcontrasts with then you come in
at times with explanations.
Matt Watts (06:48):
Yeah, so in some ways it's a relatively
straightforward interview show.
I suppose the fact that Isometimes butt in the kind of
the me afterwards with avoiceover to explain certain
elements is partly because inthe moment I don't like to stop
the flow of a conversation.
So I've recently done amaster's in documentary
(07:10):
journalism.
We're kind of taught, whenyou're interviewing someone,
tell them to say the questionback to you in their answer and
suddenly that means that it'snot conversational.
It doesn't sound the way thatthey would naturally say it.
So I like to to avoid that andthen if in the edit I go, okay,
there were some bits that youprobably need some context of
(07:32):
what this means, then I'll justdrop it in as a voiceover and
I'll reorder stuff as well,because I don't.
I think there are some podcastsout there that are just hit
record and then the wholeconversation is just there and
that can really work for someshows, I think.
But I like to tighten it up andreorder some of the things so
(07:55):
that it's accessible enoughwithout losing that
conversational tone.
Claire Waite Brown (08:00):
I think it has a radio feel.
Because of that it feels like acomplete program and because
each time the theme is the sameas in the internet, but it's
always a very different story, avery different guest.
It can be a very differentplace that you're all your
favorite.
Tell me about some of yourguests or your stories that you
particularly like.
Matt Watts (08:20):
It's funny, you were just saying about how every
single one is quite different.
So I suppose the two I'd pickare the two most tonally
(08:40):
disparate, which would be.
I was very excited to have thethe good boys, as the group of
three lads we interviewed werewho were vigilante pedophile
hunters, who had caught analleged predator who was their
(09:01):
own maths teacher, who was alsoa teacher at that school when I
was a student there.
I've always been intrigued bythese people, the kind of people
who do this stuff, because Ithink they're fascinating in
their varied motivations forgenuine justice.
Internet views, this kind ofpower play fantasy.
(09:25):
To see that happening unfoldingin my own home community and to
then be able to, so soon afterit had blown up in local groups,
get them and talk to them, Ienjoyed greatly.
It was like I was living mybest Louis Theroux impression
and I enjoyed how controversiala subject that was and I was
(09:48):
glad that I didn't make too muchof a fool of myself when
talking to them because it was adifficult energy to handle in
the room.
And then, on the completeopposite end of the spectrum, I
spoke to a really lovely I wantto say vicar, but he insists
that that is not the correctterm a reverend in sandwich who
(10:11):
I was aware of because about 15years ago one of the first
podcasts I listened to he madeand it was about wallace
presence to chat to and gettingto go down to sandwich in kent
(10:31):
by the seaside and spend myafternoon talking to him about
his life online in hisabsolutely beautiful.
Again I want to say vicarage I,I can't get away from it.
Claire Waite Brown (10:44):
You can't say reverendage.
Matt Watts (10:46):
No, I can't.
What is it Anyway?
His house that's attached tothe church.
It was really lovely, and Ithink I managed to capture that
on tape as well.
Claire Waite Brown (10:58):
Yeah, no, you definitely do.
You've got the ambience and theatmosphere, and those two were
very different atmospheres.
You ask and you've already saidthat this started from the
WhatsApp group, so you askpeople to contribute with ideas
how does that go?
Do people like to do that andget in touch with you?
Matt Watts (11:18):
So far.
It has been a little bit trickyto get that off the ground.
I think it can be difficult toget people to record themselves
if they're not someone who'sinterested in making podcasts or
media stuff.
I think that's quite a highbarrier to clear and,
interestingly, people send mestuff directly but not
(11:40):
necessarily want it to go on thepodcast.
But it's still really usefulbecause that's leading to my
next episodes.
I just received an eight-minutevoice note from someone who I
know, who is a doctor, exploringall of these different ways
that the internet has impactedtheir profession.
That's fascinating and reallylovely because it's someone I
(12:02):
haven't spoken to that much fora while, but it started
listening and, when I want tocontribute and felt like, sent
me a little podcast back.
So it's a conversation.
But getting people who I'venever met to send a voice note
that details something quiteintimate, quite intimate, which
(12:27):
is what you are privatelylooking at, what your computer
thinks of you is um, is tricky.
But I'm hoping, as I gainpopularity, more listeners, that
that'll start to come yeah, andtrust.
Claire Waite Brown (12:38):
Trust in you as well yes tomorrow and they
think they feel that they cancommunicate their story to you
and it will be in a safe place.
Another thing what about money,Do you?
Matt Watts (12:50):
get any of that.
At the moment, no, but also atthe moment I haven't tried to.
But I both want to prove tomyself and to listeners that I'm
reliable, I can make thisconsistently, it'll be good
quality, and that it issomething that they're
interested in.
I'm at the 11 episode mark now,so maybe I'm a bit closer to
(13:14):
deciding to start doing that,but I just haven't felt that it
was the right time so far.
Claire Waite Brown (13:24):
We're going to talk about listener support
in a minute, which I think iscould be useful.
So, yeah, I'm going to move onto my podcasting 2.0 because,
TrueFans, it's a 2.0 app andlots of lovely features.
What do you know about thepodcasting 2.0 features?
Matt Watts (13:39):
I like to think I know a fair bit because I've
listened to, I think, themajority of your podcasting 2.0
show.
Claire Waite Brown (13:46):
What a clever person you are, well done
.
Matt Watts (13:49):
So I've got chapters in there and transcript.
I think I've done as well as my, my homework from the homework
episodes yeah, I think those arethe main ones I've engaged with
so far.
Claire Waite Brown (14:02):
What I was thinking about for you was
comments and whether listenersmight be more inclined to write
a comment within the TrueFansapp than to call the voice line,
and it might just be a matterof an introduction, you know
they might feel happier to do itthat way.
(14:22):
So I'm going to encouragelisteners if they're listening
on TrueFans or on, for example,fountain, you can do the same
thing to send Matt comments thatway, because you'd love to hear
.
Matt Watts (14:34):
I'd love the sound of that.
Yeah, in fact, even under thisepisode, I'd really love to hear
what your unique internetexperience is.
What do you think you see onyour phone that no one else is
seeing, and why?
That'd be really interestingcool.
Claire Waite Brown (14:50):
Yes, let's do that.
Let's get some comments on thisone.
The other thing I mentionedabout listener support, and this
is something that is reallyeasily done within TrueFans and
with other podcasts in 2.0 apps,and I have been as I do with
every show that I interview onCreators streaming a very small
amount.
I've been streaming five setsper minute when I listen to your
(15:14):
show and I did attach a littlepayment to the comment.
Thank you, so I put a comment inthe Wikipedia episode so people
can see that comment from meand go oh okay, I'll do that as
well, I'll comment as well.
Thanks so much, matt.
It's been lovely to speak withyou.
How can people find you andyour show?
Matt Watts (15:37):
so you can find me on instagram.
It's at matt wattsmakesmakesdocs, and I also have
a web address with the same name, so wwwmattwattsmakesdocscouk,
and the show is Watts on yourscreen.
You can find it on TrueFans andanywhere else that you listen
(15:59):
to podcasts.
Claire Waite Brown (16:00):
Super.
Thank you very much.
Sam Sethi (16:02):
Thank you.
I like the call to action inthat interview.
So, as Matt said, do pleasecomment on this episode with
what you're seeing on yourscreen, why you think that is,
perhaps if you're baffled as towhy that is and anything that
Matt might want to explorefurther.
Claire Waite Brown (16:19):
I really look forward to hearing what
everybody wants to share.
Matt talks more about how hemanages to get this show made
around his day job and aboutwhat frustrates and excites him
about podcasting in general.
At the end of this episode ofCreators it's super easy to find
what's on your screen onTrueFans right now, because it
(16:41):
is featured in the banner at thetop of the home screen and in
the podcasts we're loving list,which is also on the home screen
.
If you'd like to chat with usabout your independent podcast
or your music, send a comment orsuper comment in TrueFans to
any creators episode by clickingon the speech bubble icon or on
(17:04):
the comments tab.
The comments tab.
Sam, a couple of weeks ago inepisode four, we spoke about
what we mean by independent andI've kind of honed it down since
then.
Do you want to hear how Iframed it?
Sam Sethi (17:23):
Absolutely Sure.
Claire Waite Brown (17:24):
Okay, so this is how I've honed it down.
I want to see what you think.
Shows that are not made bystroke for, or financially
controlled by, an organizationsuch as a publishing company,
production company or a brand,so that's one.
Shows not conglomerated into alarger group that's two, and
(17:47):
then three.
Shows not fronted by a highprofile celebrity for whom the
podcast is one of many revenuestreams.
Now that one.
I did steal the terminologyfrom the Independent Podcast
Awards, so I hope Em doesn'tmind me appropriating it.
What do you think, sam?
Anything to add?
Sam Sethi (18:06):
No, I think that's really good.
I think that independent reallyis.
When you look at Matt trying tofit it into his daytime job,
when you look at many otherpodcasters who are trying to
squeeze in both the recording,the time to get guests, the time
to promote, it is difficult andit doesn't mean that you're not
there to make a financial gain.
(18:28):
If you can make money frombeing supported by somebody or
getting host-read ads, that'sgreat, but that doesn't make it
non-independent.
So financial isn't the reasonwhy it's not independent.
But you're right, it's to dowith not part of a larger group
and having a massive team behindyou, and many celebrities do
that, so they're not independent.
Claire Waite Brown (18:47):
Yeah, okay, good, good, good.
Sam Sethi (18:49):
I shall pin that to my notice board to remind me
every time it did make me think,though, when you were talking
about this, that independentpodcasters really should be
doing pod role swaps.
And then the other one.
I did think that wouldn't stillmake them.
You know, a non-independentgrouping is to create a
(19:10):
publisher feed.
So, for example, claire, you'vegot how many podcasts now?
Claire Waite Brown (19:15):
Well, I've got the two that are completely
my own and the two that I dowith you.
Sam Sethi (19:19):
So if you put those into a publisher feed, you could
also have people follow thatpublisher feed on TrueFans and
any one of those four podcasts.
If they're ever updated, peoplewill get to have a notification
.
So I think there are ways thatpeople can act bigger while
remaining independent.
Claire Waite Brown (19:39):
Oh, yeah, okay, I like it.
I think that would be a goodone for my friend, sarah Ferris,
because she's got lots of showsand she works very hard on them
.
And I did do this as a littletest.
I made myself a publisher and Iput my two shows in it and what
happens is your publisher namecomes up on the screen of your
show, so you can click on thatand see the other shows that are
(20:00):
under that publisher, which inthis case was me.
Sam Sethi (20:03):
So the difference between a pod role and a
publisher, I just want to makeone point.
So your pod role is things thatyou recommend.
Now you can recommend your ownshows.
That's not a problem at all,right?
Invariably, what's nice to dois recommend other people's
shows.
But with a publisher feed theyare your shows only, they're not
somebody else's.
And what's really interestinglet's say you started a fifth
show, claire, and I wasfollowing your publisher feed.
(20:25):
When that fifth show gets added, I also get a notification that
you've added a new show to yourfeed.
This is how Wondery does it,for example they have I don't
know 300 shows, right, andanytime they add a new one to
that publisher feed, I, as afollower of Wondery, get an
update, even if I didn't knowthat there's a new show coming
(20:46):
out.
Claire Waite Brown (20:46):
Yeah, okay, so podcasters can create their
own publisher feed withinTrueFans once they've claimed
their shows on their creator'sdashboard.
I've done it.
I can't remember how, but itmust've been easy, because I did
it.
Sam Sethi (21:02):
It is fairly easy.
Claire Waite Brown (21:03):
Everything's easy on TrueFans it's what we
try and do.
Sam Sethi (21:06):
Yes, Brilliant.
Claire Waite Brown (21:08):
Thank you so much for that.
Sam Sethi (21:10):
Questions.
Claire, what's the questionthis week?
What are we going to talk about?
Claire Waite Brown (21:14):
Well, without sounding like I'm saying
a swear word here video.
So many people are doing videoas a separate entity to their
audio, perhaps, but I believethat with Podcasting 2.0, there
will be a way to do this withoutuploading things twice.
(21:35):
Is that correct?
Sam Sethi (21:37):
Yeah, it's a little bit later than I'd like, but the
Podcasting 2.0 community hasfinally wrapped their hands
around the fact that we mightneed to support video to curtail
the Spotify and YouTube sort ofmonopoly.
So a whole group of us have gottogether recently and said look
, one way to do this would be touse the alternative enclosure
(21:59):
tag.
The way it works in RSS is yourprimary enclosure is what
contains your MP3 audio.
That's generally how RSSssworks, and what we've now done
is creating a secondary audiolisting in your rss feed and
that's called the alternativeenclosure, and in that you could
put different versions of youraudio higher quality, lower
(22:20):
quality.
But what we are doing now andagreeing on and that's the main
thing is that we will put thevideo link in the alternative
enclosure, and we've done thatfor two reasons.
One, it means that all the appstoday won't get broken, because
if you don't support thealternative enclosure, you just
don't read it, and it means thatApple Podcasts, spotify and
(22:40):
YouTube, which ingest RSS, alsowon't break.
But if your app, like TrueFans,does support the alternative
enclosure, then you'll see alittle video icon appear on the
episode page and it allows youto switch between the audio and
video.
And yes, you're correct.
It means that you can uploadthe video, if you want, to your
(23:01):
host and put it into your RSSfeed and then, basically, that's
it.
Now.
The next stage is what you'reasking for is can we upload the
video once and then the hostgrab the audio from it as well
automatically?
And that's called HLS, and thatstands for HTTP live streaming.
It's an Apple standard.
(23:22):
Now, without getting technical,all it means is that we can
grab your video and then stripit out and just use the audio as
well.
This is exactly what Spotifydoes today.
If you upload your video toSpotify for creators, they will
take the video and put that asan option, but they will use the
audio from the video instead ofthe one in your RSS feed,
(23:46):
instead of the one in your RSSfeed.
The goal eventually, claire, isthat we, as podcasting 2.0 apps
, should all enable audio andvideo for creators if they want
video, rather than force them tohave to have their audio in the
podcast app and their videosomewhere else.
Claire Waite Brown (24:03):
And could you have those as separate if
you're using this alternativeenclosure, so your audio file
could be one audio file and yourvideo file could be a different
video file.
So you don't do the strippingthe audio of the video.
Sam Sethi (24:17):
Yes, completely, there's no pre-requirement.
Claire Waite Brown (24:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, and hosting
companies are not supportingthis yet, or are some of them?
Sam Sethi (24:27):
There are.
So Blueberry supports this nowand Transistor just announced
that they're going to supportthis.
We haven't yet got Buzzsproutor Captivate to do it yet, but
you know it's coming.
Fountain Blue, which is the newRSS Blue renamed, they support
video.
So there are a half a dozen,let's say, companies now that do
(24:49):
support the alternativeenclosure and video as well.
I reckon by the end of thisyear all hosts will support it.
And then it comes down to thequestion of do you want to be a
video podcaster or do you wantto be a pure audio podcaster
those that want to go and puttheir face front and center on
video.
You'll have an alternative toYouTube, which will be within
(25:11):
your podcast host.
Claire Waite Brown (25:13):
Yeah, it's a choice, isn't it?
And it's a choice that will bemade easier for people, which we
can't complain about.
Sam Sethi (25:19):
Video has a place, don't get me wrong but it's not
for everyone.
Claire Waite Brown (25:23):
Okay, cool.
Sam Sethi (25:25):
It's time for that fan box, Claire.
What have we heard from ourlisteners?
Claire Waite Brown (25:30):
We have heard from Clayton M Coke, who
we featured in episode six,talking about his podcast called
the Cashflow Show, and heposted last week.
This is what he said it was arare pleasure to be invited onto
the TrueFans Creator podcastwith the ever-wonderful Clare
(25:51):
Waight-Brown and the voice ofSam Settling.
Oh yes.
Sam Sethi (25:55):
Just a talking head over here.
Claire Waite Brown (25:56):
Well, only because I interviewed Clayton.
Sam Sethi (25:59):
Yeah no, you do all the work, I just sit back right.
That's all it is.
Claire Waite Brown (26:04):
Clayton also said.
When it comes to podcasts, Iusually spend most of my time
asking the questions, so now Iget the opportunity to state my
case as to why podcastingmatters and why payment for
those who provide podcastingservices needs to be a visible
part of the discussion, and thisis an interesting one.
(26:26):
David John Clark made thisinteresting point about a
comment that Clayton made onthat episode, and what Clayton
said was every podcast that youdo in 50 years time, if it's
stored properly, somebody willbe able to find that.
And David said the commentsabout your podcast being
(26:46):
available in 50 years time.
Fantastic, though I feel weneed hosts by which he means
hosting companies to consideroptions for the inevitable death
of clients, ie the podcasters.
Without prior preparation, thepodcast of a deceased client
will likely disappear.
A little morbid, I know, butworth thinking about.
(27:07):
I think it is worth thinkingabout.
I mean, I don't know putsomething in your will and
demand that your family continuepaying for your hosting so your
episodes can stay out there.
Sam Sethi (27:17):
It's interesting.
This dilemma has been addressedby Facebook in the past, when
people were saying well, whathappens when somebody dies on
their Facebook account?
Does Facebook remove it Becausethere's no payment?
But you know what happens tothat account?
Can the family access it, canthey maintain it, or will it
(27:37):
just become dormant?
And actually, facebook to theircredit which is not something I
often say enable you to go intoyour user settings and allocate
somebody else on Facebook asthe person that will have access
to your account upon your death, I guess, because there's a
payment element required by thehosting company that they well,
(28:00):
they could do it in one or twoways.
They could say look, there's noadditional cost because you're
not publishing new episodes, sowe'll just do it for free, but
it'll be marked as a dormantaccount.
Or, you know, they could say no, in order to store your content
in perpetuity, we need to getpaid.
So they might have a reducedamount, right?
(28:23):
Let's say, not the normalamount for all publishing new
episodes, but maybe a smalleramount for maintaining the
account.
I don't know.
This opens up the question aboutthe podcast license, right?
So this show, like many shows,we have copyright for what we
create, whether we place alicense on this show or not.
The thing I'm always going onabout people adding a license to
(28:45):
their podcast, which peopledon't do and they don't think
about is that in the future,could someone take this show and
remix it, could someone takethis show and turn it into AI?
I'm just saying that in thefuture, when you're gone, if you
don't have a license on yourpodcast, then basically it's a
free for all.
It could be.
(29:06):
Oh well, I have all rightsreserved.
That's my default copyright.
Somebody might argue, but youdidn't explicitly say that I
couldn't remix it, so creativecommons licenses, which is what
we use in the podcasting 2.0community, are very good to set.
Now, again, sadly, not allhosts support the license tag
(29:27):
and that means that you can'tset your own license through a
user interface on your host.
But again, in TrueFans, if youclaim your podcast, you can go
into your podcast show page inyour dashboard and you can set a
license, and that license willmean that that is then set with
your show and added to yourTrueFans rssSS feed.
Claire Waite Brown (29:49):
Okay, brilliant.
We might have to look into moredetail on that one.
I'm thinking this would be alovely thing for anybody to let
us know their comments and theirthoughts on this topic.
So do leave a super comment ora comment using the speech
bubble icon or the little tabthat says comments.
The speech bubble icon or thelittle tab that says comments On
(30:17):
to things we've spotted in theworld of podcasting.
I picked this one up fromPodNews Daily and it attracted
me because it was about hostingproviders being certified by the
Podcast Standards Project,which I know a bit about from
talking with you for Podcasting2.0.
In practice, the hostingproviders that have recently
been certified are IONO, podhome, pod2 and Alitu, some of which
(30:42):
I've heard of.
Now, as James says here, thePodcast Standards Project, the
group, aims to advocate for newfeatures that improve the open
podcasting ecosystem for bothlisteners and creators.
So for our listeners, who maybe host with some of those
companies, what does thiscertification mean?
What are they now doing?
Sam Sethi (31:03):
Yeah, let's take a step back.
Claire, you did the brilliantpodcasting 2.0 in practice.
Right, I did, and you wentthrough every tag that exists
currently out there pretty much,and those were created by the
podcasting 2.0 group of geeks.
I'm one of them, jamesCridland's another, and there
are many others in there.
(31:23):
We come up with crazy, crazynew tags or updates to tags, and
now all of those then getthrown against the wall and some
of those stick.
So TrueFound, for example,generally supports nearly every
tag.
Other podcast apps don't supporteverything, but they support
many of them.
And, in the same way, podcasthosts support some and not all,
(31:47):
and therefore, when we talkabout, oh, that host doesn't
support this feature or that tag, then what we're saying is it's
not fair.
You now have to pick one hostabove the other if you want
certain things to work.
Ergo, the license tag we justmentioned a minute ago.
But the podcast standardsproject think of it as the
marketing arm of podcasting 2.0.
So it's all the hosts and allthe apps get together and we say
(32:10):
, right, here's the 30 crazytags that currently exist.
Which of those are we going tocertify as a must be used by the
host and must be used by theapps, and so they start off with
some of the easier ones, likethe person tag and chapters and
transcripts, and then over timewe add more of the existing tags
(32:33):
into the certified bucket.
And so in the case of Podhome,pod2, alitu, they all support
the first five tags that existthat have been certified by the
Podcast Standards Project andover time, the goal is that the
podcast standards project willlook at each individual tag
that's been created and say, yep, I think now we should all
(32:57):
support this tag.
So the example was earlier thealternative enclosure tag.
So now what we're pushing foris the new level of
certification and then, in orderto qualify for that level of
certification, hosts and appsmust support the alternative
enclosure.
So it's going to be a bit of amarketing stick and carrot
(33:21):
capability from the podcaststandards project because
there'll be badges.
That's what will eventuallyhappen.
There will be a badge that ison your host's website and a
badge that's on your app thatsays we are podcast standards
project 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0,whatever level certification,
and if you're not at the latestlevel of certification, people,
(33:44):
users, fans might say I mightswitch to a different host or I
might switch to a different appthat supports the features that
I want.
So, yes, the podcast standardsproject is the marketing arm of
podcasting 2.0 and the geekycome up with crazy tag is the
podcast index.
Claire Waite Brown (34:02):
Okay, cool, so I'm going to put you on the
spot now, sam.
What are those five tags for1.0 certification?
Sam Sethi (34:11):
Okay.
So one of those is the TXT tag,which again, is not used by end
users.
It's used by hosts to verifythat the owner of the podcast
says who they are and then thehost can verify using a unique
ID.
The locked tag was anotherhost-driven thing.
(34:32):
One of the things they wantedto do was prevent people moving
you from their existing host toanother host.
So if you then put in thelocked tag, it would mean no
other host could migrate youacross, right?
So those two are veryhost-driven and everyone went oh
really, that's not reallyhelping users.
(34:53):
So then the next one was theperson tag, Then we had
transcripts and then we hadchapters.
They're the five tags.
Claire Waite Brown (35:02):
Brilliant.
Oh good, so those three arethree of my favorite.
You know my other favorite isPodroll, but I do like those
three.
What people can do is head overto podcasting2.org, which we
mentioned last week, and on thatwebsite you've got this lovely
display of hosting companies.
You can click on the hostingcompany and see which features
(35:25):
they actually support.
Sam Sethi (35:27):
You can also, claire, and you may not have even seen
this yourself on the TrueFansapp, you will see a menu item
called hosts and if you click onthat, it will show you all the
hosts that currently exist andit will show you what features
they currently support and ifthey are a member of the podcast
(35:48):
standards project, if they'recertified.
Claire Waite Brown (35:50):
Oh brilliant .
I have actually seen that, butI haven't clicked on it.
Sam Sethi (35:56):
You know me, Claire, we've done it all.
Claire Waite Brown (35:58):
Brilliant.
Okay, what have you seen out?
Sam Sethi (36:02):
and about podcasting Well, one of the things that
everyone's getting very excitedabout is monetization, right.
So we've had a lot ofconversations about
micropayments and wallets andpeople are still a little bit
confused.
So one of the more simpler waysto earn money as an independent
podcast creator is to enablethe funding tag.
For example, with your podcast,claire, you might say I would
(36:26):
like you to click on this linkand go to buy me a coffee, and
then somebody could buy you a $5coffee or a £5 coffee and that
will go into your account,whether that's a Stripe account
or wherever it goes.
More and more hosts and moreand more apps are now supporting
the funding tag, and NPR, whichis the American National Public
(36:48):
Radio, has recently addedsupport for the funding tag
across all its shows and ofcourse, that means that now more
apps like Pocket Cast, TrueFans, fountain, Podcast Addict and
TenorPod all support the fundingtag.
And again this goes back to Ithink it will be in the next
iteration of the PodcastStandards Project certification
(37:11):
next iteration of the podcaststandards project certification
that the pod role, you'll beglad to know, and the funding
tag will be the next level ofcertification that all hosts
have to achieve in order to getcertified.
If you have a link to patreon ormaybe buy me a coffee and
that's in your rss feed, we willshow that it's a hand with a
(37:32):
little heart on it in TrueFans.
You click on it and it willtake you to wherever you want to
get paid as an independentpodcast creator.
But not everybody wants to openup a patreon account or a buy
me a coffee account or amemberful account.
So what we've done is, if youdon't have anything, your
funding tag is blank.
There is no URL.
(37:53):
Then the user, when they clickon that heart with a hand
underneath it, will actuallythen pop up in TrueFans and say
well, do you want to pay me $3,$5, $10 or another amount that
you choose, and that money willgo into your TrueFans wallet
directly so we can support youin TrueFans if you don't have an
(38:14):
external funding tag.
Claire Waite Brown (38:15):
Perfect.
Yeah, we did talk in moredetail about that, especially
the TrueFans option in episodesix of Creators.
And for a little lesson infunding, you can listen into
episode 25 of Fan Zone, which iscalled Funding.
Sam Sethi (38:32):
And that's it for this week.
Claire, our audio is recordedand edited using Riverside, and
we're hosted by our friends atBuzzsprout.
Claire Waite Brown (38:40):
You can support this show by streaming
sats from your TrueFans wallet,or leave us a super comment or,
better still, become a monthlysupporter of the show or leave
us a super comment or, betterstill, become a monthly
supporter of the show If you'dlike to advertise or sponsor
this show.
please email me, sam, attruefansfm, for further details.
You can find out more about howto use the features we've
(39:01):
discussed today and others onthe TrueFans platform by
listening to our sister podcastFan Zone and, as Sam's been kind
enough to mention today, ifyou're keen to learn more about
Podcasting 2.0 in general, doplease check out my course-based
podcast called Podcasting 2.0in Practice.
Don't forget, you can keeplistening to hear more from this
(39:26):
episode's featured creator.
Matt Watts (39:29):
I am a complete one-man band, so all of it is me
I edit in Adobe Audition, justbecause that's what I've always
been used to and was taught touse, and unfortunately, no, it
is just quite time consuming andI prefer it to be time
consuming and get it the way Iwant it to be than to just put
(39:51):
it out.
I suppose this is partly why atthe moment it's monthly,
because it does take a couple ofdays to edit a whole episode,
as well as the finding thesubject going and doing the
interview on top of the day job.
Yeah, so probably I'm quiteslow, is the answer job.
Claire Waite Brown (40:13):
Yeah, so probably I'm quite slow is the
answer, but having thatflexibility to decide this is
how I'm going to do it, becausethis is how I can make it work
around everything else I'm doingand produce a very high quality
and entertaining product.
Let's go on to podcasting ingeneral, and I want to know what
is one thing that frustratesyou about podcasting or the
(40:33):
podcast industry and what is onething that excites you.
Matt Watts (40:38):
Part of it is the perception of podcasting,
because it's not a new mediumanymore, but it's still a
relative underdog medium.
Everything is lumped into one.
I think the majority of thepublic they see podcast as a
genre, not as a medium, and thatcan make it quite difficult to
(41:00):
explain what a wide variety ofshows there are out there and to
get people interested, partlybecause I think there was a
point in recent years where thepublic imagination of podcast
has become three people filmingthemselves on instagram sitting
around with microphones, with noformat, just chatting, usually
(41:28):
completely inanely, and that'sfrustrating because there's room
for that if people want tolisten to that.
But that's not what a podcastis and if I say to someone I've
got a podcast, I really don'twant them to imagine that yeah,
so that's frustrating.
I suppose the flip side of thatthe exciting thing is it's still
(41:49):
relatively young.
It still has the ability toprove itself as something else
and be completely free and open.
I can make what I wanted tomake because I was curious about
it and put it out and peopleare listening to it.
What a privilege, because doingthis master's degree, talking
to people who had to go throughmore official channels, you know
(42:12):
, start going through the BBC orsomewhere.
Not to disparage the BBC, Ireally love their podcasts and
I'd love to work there ifanyone's listening.
But it's very different.
You have to spend yearsgrafting at something that maybe
isn't what you want to make orhow you want to make it.
So I think it's still excitingthat we have that freedom.
Claire Waite Brown (42:35):
Yeah, completely agree.
That's.
One of my favorite things isthe fact that anyone can do
their thing and they can produceit and put it out there and
they don't have to go to agatekeeper.
It's a word we hear all thetime to say is this good enough,
will you let me do it?
And then the other thing I wasreminded of about the general
perception of podcasts andpodcasters is and this I see in
(42:59):
popular culture is the pictureof a podcaster as a nosy true
crime detective getting in theway.
That's a slightly frustratingstereotype that I've seen out
there.
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