June 16, 2025 • 49 mins
The lived experience of independent podcasters is one of both liberating freedom and unique challenges. How can the TrueFans listening platform address those challenges and help indie creators keep creating?
Through an interview with Joana PR Neves, host of Exhibitionistas podcast, and conversations between Sam and Claire, this episode of Creators discusses:
- The power of podcasting to give voice to independent creators who might otherwise go unheard
- How asking for financial support for your podcast can meet listener resistance
- TrueFans features that help creators earn directly from listeners through streaming payments
- The challenges of describing visual experiences in an audio format
- How chapters and image attachments can enhance the listener experience
- Recent research that shows that audio-first platforms still dominate despite YouTube's growing presence
- How to claim your show and start earning on TrueFans
- The independent podcasts shortlisted for the International Women's Podcast Awards
- The incredible diversity of content being shared by independent podcasts
- An indie podcast wins at the True Crime Awards
Discover how TrueFans can help your independent podcast thrive through improved discovery, direct monetization, and enhanced listener engagement.
And if you'd like to chat with us about your independent podcast or music, send a comment or super comment in TrueFans to any Creators episode by clicking on the speech bubble icon or on the comments tab.
Listen to Exhibitionistas here.
Find TrueFans here
Music: How It Is from Ketsa Music
Feedback: TrueFans Support
Read: Creators Blog
Recommendations: Creators Podroll
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joana PR Neves (00:06):
it's out there and people can get to it and
they can very organically bedriven to what you're doing in a
way that if you didn't havepodcasting, a lot of people
wouldn't have that voice thetopics that are covered are so
interesting and varied.
Sam Sethi (00:21):
You know there are brilliant podcasts that have
been created by independentpeople who have many things in
their lives to do but who stillmanage to produce a podcast week
in, week out or month in, monthout.
Claire Waite Brown (00:33):
Welcome to Creators from True Fans.
I'm independent podcaster,Claire Waite Brown, and I'm Sam.
Sam Sethi (00:41):
Sethi, the CEO of True Fans.
Claire Waite Brown (00:42):
Each episode , we'll chat with an independent
creator, whether a podcaster ormusician, about their creative
experiences.
Sam Sethi (00:51):
And we'll answer questions from independent
creators about the True Fansfeatures that can help them with
discovery, interactivity andmonetization.
Claire Waite Brown (01:00):
We'll get interactive and see what our
listeners have been saying inthe comments and super comments.
Sam Sethi (01:06):
And discuss what's happening in the wider world.
That could be a benefit toindependent creators.
Hi, Claire.
Claire Waite Brown (01:13):
Hi Sam, how are you?
Sam Sethi (01:15):
I'm very good Now.
This week our featured podcastis Exhibitionistas.
Claire, you interviewed thehost.
Claire Waite Brown (01:21):
Yes, Joana PR Neves is the host of
Exhibitionistas and I chattedwith her about her podcast, what
it's about, why she wanted tomake it and about some of the
challenges that she experienceswhen producing and promoting a
podcast which I'm sure manyother creators will relate to.
(01:41):
I was also able to give somethoughts on how a few features
within True Fans could alleviatesome of those frustrations.
So here's our chat.
Hello, hello, hello.
I am here today with Joanna P RNeves.
Well, at least that's how I sayit, joanna, how do you say it?
Joana PR Neves (02:02):
I say Joana P R Neves it, I say Joana P R Neves.
Claire Waite Brown (02:06):
And that is from what part of the world?
From Lisbon, Portugal.
Oh, brilliant, okay, right,let's get into it.
First, tell me, please, what isthe name of your show and what
is it all about.
Joana PR Neves (02:18):
Right, so my show is called Exhibitionistas
and it's about contemporary arts, is called Exhibitionistas and
it's about contemporary arts,artist exhibitions and theory
for everyone.
So the idea is that it isapproachable and not elitist as
you would normally considercontemporary art to be.
Claire Waite Brown (02:37):
Yeah, how do you decide which artists, which
shows you're going to cover,and do you have guests ever?
Joana PR Neves (02:46):
So we have three types of formats.
So there's the exhibitiondiscussions, which are always
done with a co-host, so theissue is finding a co-host.
I think that's one of thechallenges.
And then I have guests,sometimes people who can bring a
different perspective on ouridea of what an exhibition is or
(03:07):
what the materials of makingexhibitions can be Like.
New Technologies was a big,successful episode recently.
And then there's video slashaudio essays where I read a text
.
There's images if you want tolook at the images.
There's images if you want tolook at the images, and there's
a sort of a flow of a conceptual, speculative narrative that is
(03:32):
approachable, simple, thatallows you to look sometimes at
a work that might seem a bitcryptic and to understand from
within what it might be about.
And these are much shorterepisodes.
And then in third season I willbring episodes that are topical
, that will go into contemporaryarts through unexpected angles
(03:55):
such as tattoos, for example.
Claire Waite Brown (03:56):
I've got two questions now.
One is actually about audience,and then the other is about
audio and visual.
So let's start with audience.
Who were you thinking theaudience would be?
Who were you hoping or who didyou feel that you wanted to
communicate this with?
That's such a good question.
Joana PR Neves (04:16):
It is particularly interesting within
the contemporary art field, thatquestion because when I started
the podcast I thought this isfor people who think art is, or
contemporary art is, horribleand they don't like it.
And then I thought, no, theywill never listen to your
podcast.
This is for art curious peoplewho want to know a bit more.
(04:37):
And then you start your podcastand you realize that for people
to know your podcast you haveto promote it.
So there's, of course, theprofessional audience, there's
the artists.
There's a lot of artists wholove listening to podcasts and
who have the ideal settingthey're working, they're in
their studios, they press play,that's it.
And then you have people whovery organically get to your
(05:02):
podcast who you don't know.
I don't know who those peoplein Canada are, I have no clue.
But I think for me the realchallenge is to get to those
people who want to know a bitmore and who may be a bit
intimidated by art podcasts,because art podcasts are usually
(05:22):
very much within their ownbubble and they kind of speak a
jargon or they're interviewbased and it's just artists
speaking.
So I kind of feel like I have asort of a unique project, which
is that I deal with likemainstream art, so let's say,
artists with lots of exposure,but at the same time I want it
to be interesting, approachablefor anyone to listen to, and I
(05:46):
think that's my challenge.
Claire Waite Brown (05:48):
Yeah, I understand that and you've
partially answered.
What was my next question whenyou say about artists in the
studios pressing play?
But then I'm going to turn intothe challenges.
What are the challenges ofspeaking about a visual
experience?
Joana PR Neves (06:09):
I would say and I hope you guys are all
listening that it's the co-hostswho never describe the off work
they're talking about.
It's such a challenge because Ialways have a little pep talk,
I explain and I say do you know,put yourself in the shoes of
(06:31):
the person who's listening andnot watching.
Most people listen to audio.
They don't go to the videos.
They don't know why you feel socompelled by the artwork to
think about your dad.
They have no idea what theconnection is, so you can't.
Compelled by the artwork tothink about your dad.
They have no idea what theconnection is, so you can't go
to the subject before youdescribe the object.
(06:52):
And that really is the challenge, because it's so pleasurable
when someone describes somethingto you and you can close your
eyes and just imagine what thatthing is.
Even for me, listening tosomeone describe visually
something is such a pleasure,but it's so difficult.
(07:13):
And even myself I forgetsometimes.
You know you're in theexhibition or you're talking
about the artist's career andsay, well, they worked with this
artist, this major artistcalled Blah Blah in the Project
Dada, and that was abreakthrough because they
understood this.
And then, if you don't know theartwork, I'm referencing.
You then got to go back.
Yeah, yes, and with everythingyou can't presume people know.
(07:37):
So you have to be careful.
If you say something is reallycrucial, you have to
contextualize that can separateyour audience right away.
You know, if they listen andthey say, okay, this person does
not explain the references,this is for people who are
really steeped in the art worldand that's it.
Claire Waite Brown (07:56):
So that's the challenge, yeah.
And they're going to say, right, I've got no idea what she's
talking about, I'm giving up.
What frustrates you aboutpodcasting?
It might not be the process, itmight be you know stuff that
surrounds it.
Joana PR Neves (08:08):
It might be the marketing of it, anything I
think the frustrating thing isthat you suddenly which is part
of the really amazing thingabout it, it's they go together,
is that suddenly you have aplatform where you can put your
content out there in a way thatis incredibly accessible and you
(08:33):
have a voice.
You develop your own voice.
It's incredibly flexible, youcan fine tune it as you go and
so it's out there and people canget to it and they can very
organically be driven to whatyou're doing in a way that if
you didn't have podcasting, alot of people wouldn't have that
voice right, because media, Imean, how do you get to the big
(08:55):
media and how do you get to havean article written every week
somewhere you know it's radio orradio whatever.
But at the same time, I thinkwhat frustrates me with it is
that it is so accessible thatpromoting it becomes an ongoing,
unrelenting obligation onsocial media and it has lots of
(09:16):
limitations.
That's suddenly celebritiescome in, they have the money,
they have the team, they haveall the means and suddenly they
are installed in a medium thatwill kind of shadow everybody
around you.
That's what I think on bad days.
On good days, I think that'sactually a good thing, because
(09:41):
in my age bracket in my fieldand I think in Europe people are
still very uneducated to whatpodcasting is.
It's still weird with my artpeers to say hi, hello, I'm an
independent writer and curatorand I'm a podcaster.
And when I say podcaster,people kind of jump.
(10:01):
They have sort of knee-jump,knee-jump reaction to oh, you're
an influencer, what do you mean?
Do you sell soap, you know?
So, yeah, I think those are thefrustrations and the but.
So good to have this medium.
It's so flexible and can do somany things.
(10:22):
I have so many ideas.
Claire Waite Brown (10:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's great.
Do you have any financialsupport for your show and do you
find that you haveinteractivity with your
listeners?
You know, rather than justseeing numbers, do you actually
do your listeners communicatewith you?
Joana PR Neves (10:41):
That's a really good and important question, I
think, and that's I think that'spart of the frustrating thing
in the promotion side of things,which is that and I attribute
that to my milieu as well, tothe field that I'm developing
the podcast in as well which isthat people in the art field
don't really engage that much.
(11:03):
They find it a bit ridiculous.
It's not cool to go and say Ilove what you do because it's
fandom, and in Europe peopledon't behave like that.
Anyway.
We're not fans, we're notAmericans, and there's a huge
distrust with social media, andpodcasting is associated very
closely with social media, andso that's a difficulty for sure.
(11:25):
And I think with monetizationit's the same issue whereby,
first and foremost, when you'relistening to a podcast, you're
going about your life.
There's no direct way of payingfor it.
There is the tradition of radiothat you don't pay for, so you
kind of feel that that should befree and you don't want to be a
(11:46):
member or to pay every month,although you do pay a delivery
every month, but that's ano-brainer.
People don't hesitate, they payfor the Apple storage
No-brainer, don't even thinkabout it.
But then compensating someonefor the endless hours of work no
, no, no, not going to do that,sorry.
Do I sound a bit bitter?
Because I am?
No, no, no, not going to dothat, sorry.
(12:08):
Do I sound a bit bitter?
Because I am, and I have thistalk to people who listen to my
podcast every two weeks.
I tell them this, complainingand doing the cognitive
dissonance of I'm not includingyou, but I know they don't pay
for it and people go like, oh,yeah, yeah, that's true, we are
like that.
No connection whatsoever,doesn't, you know, get home to.
(12:33):
So what I have to do is I haveto send newsletters, do social
media interventions I want tocall them and also, in the art
world, you will never get theJoe Rogan audience or the
PewDiePie who started playing agame on YouTube and suddenly
became a millionaire.
That's not going to happen toyou, you know.
So you need a sponsor andbecause I came into this kind of
(12:54):
like, I rolled into it.
I'm taking my time to perfectit.
I want to do a few videos onsocial media, funny ones, like a
sort of editing thing, where Ifilm myself editing and then I
film myself going to the showand then I film myself reading
and I feel myself taking notes,you know, watching a YouTube
(13:16):
video and count the hours andsay OK, this is what I do and
this is the time it takes me.
Some people still think that Ijust record a conversation.
Claire Waite Brown (13:24):
Yeah.
Joana PR Neves (13:25):
Yeah, and that I just upload it.
So I think there's an educationto be done in regards to
podcasting and to the necessityof accessibility.
Claire Waite Brown (13:39):
Yeah, I completely understand.
I do like the phrase you use inyour show notes, which is
something along the lines of youwouldn't leave the cafe without
paying for the latte.
Joana PR Neves (13:45):
That's what I have in my newsletter as well.
Claire Waite Brown (13:49):
Yeah, brilliant.
So I'm going to talk about acouple of those little things.
Actually, with regards to TrueFans, yes, I'm very curious.
Curious.
Do you know anything aboutpodcasting 2.0?
Features the term podcasting2.0 I?
Joana PR Neves (14:05):
know because you sent me the questions.
So thank you for that.
That's very clever, I gosh.
I would have sounded like Ilived under a rock, and also it
gave me the opportunities.
Clever because then you kind ofget to know in your own terms.
So that was really interestingresearch.
(14:27):
I have to say so, I'm still anewcomer to this podcasting
thing.
So I learned a lot and I didhear about it and I did read
about it.
I had no idea what it was and Iin my mind I just said that's
for later, like it's in thefridge, and so because of the
question, I thought it wasreally interesting.
Because, first of all, forengagement, it's really
(14:48):
interesting that it will be doneacross platforms.
It's more democratic.
But also the time it takes toreply to everyone in all the
platforms you're in is mindboggling.
I'm almost kind of happy peopledon't engage that much, because
I keep thinking the day peopleare going to start doing it like
(15:10):
how am I going to handle that?
So that's great.
And also the idea that you cantip, that you can.
You know all of that isaccessible, because what most
people tell me is that you know,I listen to podcasts when I'm
walking the dog or whatever, socleaning, so it's back there in
the computer.
I have to go to your website.
I mean, I'm not going to dothat, and so that is really
(15:36):
great.
Is that the tagging of themusicians or the people that
participate, I think is reallyimportant, because a lot of
people, I think, like yourself,use the podcast for your other
stuff right, and you also invitepeople that you want to promote
, and so that's really important.
And Spotify does it, forexample, youtube does it
(15:59):
automatically, and so I had thisreally outlandish, surrealist
experience of big artist thatthe podcast is about, or their
wife, who was also very famous.
So I think this idea of taggingthe collaborators, I mean
(16:27):
whatever makes sense for eachperson's podcast, is really good
, because it is taking usseriously.
It's taking the mediumseriously as well.
I'm only a bit afraid ofBitcoin, to be honest.
It's something that I'm very,very suspicious of, partly
because I don't understand it.
It's subjected to trends and tohearsay, to rumour.
(16:52):
It's not currency, establishedcurrency in some way.
Of course, again, I do notunderstand what I'm talking
about.
So I hope I answered yourquestion.
Claire Waite Brown (17:01):
Yeah, no, definitely Thank you for doing a
bit of looking into it as well.
So the Bitcoin thing is sooften what I hear from people,
I'm sure, and you were alsotalking about going home and
having to do something, you know, having to go to buy me a
coffee or whatever it is.
Now I've been listening to yourshow while I've been driving
and I have set up in TrueFans topay five sats per minute I'm
(17:26):
listening to.
So five sats is like 0.01 pence, oh, interesting.
So I don't have to then doanything.
All I have to do is listen andsome money goes into your
TrueFans wallet.
Now, the way Sam's done it inTrueFans takes away that Bitcoin
fear as well, because theTrueFans wallet runs at Bitcoin.
(17:48):
But when you take it out, youcan take it as a creator, you
can take it to Stripe.
Oh, ok, in TrueFans you'vealready claimed your show.
So you have a wallet inTrueFans now and if someone like
myself either sends you a supercomment with some sats or fiat
currency attached or, as I'mdoing, streaming a small amount,
(18:10):
it goes into your wallet andthen at some point in the future
, you can take that out in realmoney and take it to the shops
where you can spend it on things, where I can buy my latte that
I wouldn't steal.
Joana PR Neves (18:24):
That's interesting.
That's really interesting.
That I didn't understand.
Okay, that's really interesting.
And so how does it work?
So can I?
Am I allowed to ask questions?
So how does it work?
Because then you have to hostyour podcast on True.
Claire Waite Brown (18:41):
Fans.
You joined True Fans when yousent the comment to creators to
tell us about your show.
And then, when you do that,true Fans makes you a wallet
straight away yes, a digitalwallet within True Fans.
So then, when you've claimedyour show and that show is
attached to your name withinTrue Fans, then anything that
(19:02):
gets paid there just goesstraight to that wallet.
I had no clue.
Joana PR Neves (19:09):
I will have a look.
I'll have 2p in there.
That's amazing.
Claire Waite Brown (19:16):
The other thing as a podcaster, you can
look at your show page on TrueFans and you can look at the tab
called Activity and it willshow you that I became a fan and
that I've streamed so many sats, so you can start in that one
place.
You can see that people mayhave commented or sent you sats
(19:36):
and stuff like that.
So once now, obviously nobody'sgoing to know that unless
people tell people about TrueFans and about how it works.
So that's another kind ofthat's another stage in the
process of a bit of like dynamiccontent or something to say.
Did you know you can do this inTrue Fans?
But just have a look at yourshow on True Fans and you can
(19:58):
see some of the things.
The other one I thought aboutfor you was chapters, and
chapters is a podcasting 2.0feature that you can now you're
the host that you're with nowwon't allow you to do that with
them, but other hostingcompanies and you might think
about this just for the future,just to have it in the back of
(20:19):
your mind you can put atimestamp and then you can
attach a picture to that bitthat you're talking about.
So when you're describingsomething, the people don't have
to look at it, but if theywanted to, you could have a
picture of that.
That shows up on the podcastapp and also you can have a link
(20:39):
.
If people wanted to go back toit later, they could see all
your photos from that exhibitionfor example Very interesting.
Yeah, so there's this otherreally good show.
It's called Podcasting 2.0 inPractice and it's hosted by
Claire Waite-Brown, who I'veheard is quite good at this kind
of thing.
I don't know who that is and theepisode I did with Daniel J
(21:04):
Lewis about chapters.
He explains what fun things youknow you could do with it and I
just think, as we spoke aboutthat visual and audible
connection, you can still listenand hear that description that
you're giving, but then, ifsomebody actually wants to see
it as well, they can that's sointeresting because for
professionals it's actuallyreally, really useful, because I
(21:25):
have lots of people who tell meoh my god, it's so great what
you do because I'm can't be inlondon all the time.
Joana PR Neves (21:30):
There was this really important show that you
covered and you know I waslistening.
But yeah, it's such a shamethat it doesn't have images,
because then you have to lookthem up.
Oh no, I was thinking, shoot, Ilistened to your podcast on
Spotify.
I should have listened on TrueFans.
Ok, I'll skip to True Fans now.
Claire Waite Brown (21:48):
Yeah, do have a little look at that.
Have a listen to Fan Zone andPodcasting 2.0 in practice.
They're nice and short and easyto listen explains those things
a bit more.
So I'm glad I was able tointroduce you to some of those
concepts.
Let's move on to how can peopleconnect with you.
Joana PR Neves (22:06):
So my podcast is called exhibitionistas and it's
on all platforms and it'sreally good to follow on
instagram because I do all theouttakes and like fun clips and
also little video edits of theexhibitions I visit, my
impressions as I come out of theexhibition that are really
fresh and don't end up on thepodcast.
(22:27):
So I think that's a really goodway to connect and to leave
comments.
And also there's the websiteexhibitionistespodcastcom where
you can get in touch with me.
Websiteexhibitionistespodcastcom where
you can get in touch with me,work with me, that would be
great.
And also, if you want to leavecomments, you know, or if you
want to leave suggestions,that's a good way.
(22:47):
I'm on Blue Sky as well.
Everything's calledExhibitionist.
I probably forgot lots ofthings, but Brilliant.
Claire Waite Brown (22:52):
Thank you so much, Joanna.
Another way people can commenton your show is through the True
Fans app as well.
There's a tab called commentsor there's a little speech mark
icon and people can comment andcommunicate directly with you on
the True Fans app.
Joana PR Neves (23:08):
I forget, of course, it's so fascinating.
The problem is that my problemis that now you're giving me
another thing to research and Iknow there's a rabbit hole there
and I'm going to fall into itvery, very quickly.
So, yeah, they're good, butthat's good, it's good stuff I
think the markets and theindustry is evolving and we need
to find a way for it to existin a good way.
Sam Sethi (23:32):
There we go, joanna, really interesting from
Exhibitionistas.
Thank you, claire, for doingthat interview.
Go, joanna, really interestingfrom Exhibitionistas.
Thank you, claire, for doingthat interview.
And you can hear more from thatinterview at the end of this
episode of Creators, whereJoanna talks about her art
background and her actualpodcasting process, including
how she fits in around herfull-time work schedule.
Gosh, yes, that's the life ofan independent podcast creator,
isn't it?
Claire Waite Brown (23:53):
Exactly.
If you'd like to chat with usabout your independent podcast
or your music, send a comment orsuper comment in True Fans to
any Creators episode by clickingon the speech bubble icon or on
the comments tab.
Sam Sethi (24:11):
Time for the questions.
Claire, We've been collectingthe questions that listeners
have sent us in.
Which questions have you chosento ask me this week?
Claire Waite Brown (24:18):
Well, this is an important question for
podcast creators wanting to makethe most of everything that
they can do on True Fans, and itactually relates back to my
interview with Joanna, who hasalready done this and whose show
has collected somemicropayments, and that question
is how do I claim my show?
Sam Sethi (24:40):
So, once you've created your account on True
Fans, you find your podcast.
Click on it, you get to thepodcast page and on the cover
art itself for the podcast,you'll see a little icon, an
exclamation mark.
Click on that icon and it willpop up a box that says enter the
email that you have within yourRSS feed.
(25:01):
Now, a couple of years back, wehad a problem where people were
spamming RSS feeds so all thehosts took out the email by
default, which is a shame.
But you can actually go back toyour host in the host dashboard
and have your email addedtemporarily for 24 or 48 hours,
(25:23):
republish your podcast and thenyou'll see that we have it then
available in TrueFans and youcan enter your email.
Now that's the current way ofdoing it.
It's a bit messy becauseclearly, if you want to claim
your podcast, you want to do itstraight away, and you're like
oh, I have to now wait, do I?
Well, we're working on a newmethod called the verify tag, so
(25:45):
all the hosts currently supportit, and the idea is we'll give
you a little code in TrueFansthat's unique to your podcast.
You then go to your creator'sdashboard, add that code in and
then we will be able to read inyour RSS feed that code and
verify that you own that podcast.
So it's a little step to claimyour podcast.
(26:05):
We have to be secure that youare the owner.
We don't want someone elsetaking over your podcast, making
changes and then that will bedisastrous.
But once you've claimed it, yougo to your creator's dashboard.
You'll be able to see yourpodcast.
How many people listen to yourpodcast, who's the most active?
Who listened to it first?
(26:25):
How long did people listen toit in total?
What was the average time eachlistener listened to your
podcast episodes?
How much money were paid, andso more.
So all that is called firstparty data.
So I highly highly recommend ifyou have a podcast, you go and
claim it.
And of course, the other thingclaire is you can go and set up
(26:47):
your true fans wallet in yourcreator's dashboard and then
start to have your fans pay youdirectly into your wallet.
Claire Waite Brown (26:56):
Yeah, it's brilliant.
It's absolute box of delights.
The creator's dashboard.
Sam Sethi (27:02):
Excellent.
Now, my favourite time of theweek it's Fanbox.
This is where we talk to peoplewho've given us comments Any
comments that we had.
Claire Waite Brown (27:10):
So one of the comments is from Joanna P
Arneves, who said I can't see mycomment here so I'll repost.
I agree that celebs doingpodcasts is a bummer.
You're saying out loud whateveryone is thinking.
(27:32):
That's in relation to aquestion you asked me in the
last episode.
I have a podcast calledExhibitionistas about
contemporary art and I'd love tobe featured and, as you know,
because of that comment, joannahas been featured.
And we also had a comment fromChristine Grittmon Hi, claire,
(27:53):
excited to see this new projectfrom you and, of course, I'd
love for let's Talk About Brandto get involved.
So Christine is someone I havemet through the Digital Women
Network and I have sent her anemail with a link to how to come
chat with me about let's TalkAbout Brand.
So, christine, go to my diary,let's book a date.
Sam Sethi (28:16):
Excellent, this is how you do it.
So if anyone else, let's goback over it, claire.
Claire Waite Brown (28:32):
Anyone else wants to come on the show as a
featured guest.
What do they need to do lowerthan that?
A selection of tabs, and one ofthese is called comments.
Click on either of those andit's really clear how you can
leave a comment for that episodeand if you want to, you can
turn that into a super commentby attaching a little bit of
money to it.
Sam Sethi (28:54):
I like the sound of that money.
Claire Waite Brown (28:57):
Sam, let's go out into the real world.
Have you spotted anything thisweek that independent creators
and their fans might also wantto know about?
Sam Sethi (29:07):
yeah, there's a couple of stories that I think
will really resonate with people.
The first one is a report bypaul mandel.
The big thing claire at themoment for poor independent
podcast creators is should theydo video, video, video video.
It seems to be the mantra right, and that's because everyone
says YouTube is dominatingpodcasts.
(29:28):
Well, signal Hill Insights,where Paul works has said there
is evidence that actually we arestill using an audio first
platform and it's time to tonedown the discourse or the you
must do video.
So that's the good news, Ithink, for independent podcast
creators who have been worriedor scratching their heads about
how or when they should do video.
(29:49):
Video is interesting and I thinkvideo works when you've got
something more than just twotalking heads to do.
But I think if you're justhaving two talking heads, yes,
be on YouTube if you want to.
I mean, it's a large platform,it has an algorithm, but also be
aware that I don't think theworld and their dog are going to
(30:09):
beat their door to your podcastjust because you're on YouTube.
So, yes, good news, youtubeisn't the only place where you
can do podcasting.
Claire Waite Brown (30:18):
Brilliant.
I completely agree, sam.
There is a lot of pressure onus independent podcasts to do
more work, and do we really wantto do more work?
I tend to use YouTube when Ihave a bit of spare time to
maybe put some highlights upjust for the algorithm point of
view, but I am an audio girlthrough and through.
Sam Sethi (30:39):
Yeah, and I think you know, when you're driving, when
you're at the gym, when you'rewalking, when you're on the
train or when you're busy doingother things, video does not
work.
And there's a place for radio,there's a place for TV, there's
a place for podcasting audio andthere's a place for YouTube
video.
Claire Waite Brown (30:55):
But it's good to have that report, I
think, to give a bit ofreassurance.
Sam Sethi (31:00):
Yeah, to counter all the arguments which, to be fair,
has come from YouTube PR, soit's nice to have independent
people looking at it and saying,no, that's not quite true.
Now, one of the other thingsthat I think podcasters are
worried about is actually whenthey have to do a formalised
script.
We are recording today usingriverside.
(31:21):
We have used dscript as well inthe past, but dscript have just
come out with a new featurecalled a teleprompter, which we
all know what one is.
But it's nice now that you canactually, if you are having to
do a formalized I don't knowpodcast ad, because you're the
host and it's a host read ad.
Maybe you need to read it out,and now you can have a
(31:43):
teleprompter within Descript tohelp you just read out while
you're working through yourvideo.
Cool, the next story that Ithought might be really
interesting and I think it'sgreat news Goalhanger, which is
the biggest independent podcastcreator in the UK.
You might have seen.
The rest is football, the restis entertainment, the rest is
money.
They are now announcing a newfree, monthly masterclass.
(32:06):
You can join sessions with thecompany to learn more about
being a producer, an editor,commercial leads.
These will all be streamed liveand you can watch them or
listen to them free as well.
So that's great.
Thank you to Goalhanger fordoing that.
It just brings more knowledgeinto the marketplace for all the
hardworking independent podcastcreators.
Claire Waite Brown (32:25):
Can I ask you a question about that, Sam?
What is an independent podcaststudio?
Sam Sethi (32:32):
So they are not funded.
They are not part of a largergroup.
They're not owned.
So Wondery, for example, is notan independent podcast creator.
They are part of Amazon.
Audible is the same, and thereare many others.
So, for example, there's amassive group called PodX now
which owns Listen, which ownsmany other companies.
(32:53):
Platform Media is one of thoseas well.
So they're not independent.
They are conglomerated into alarger group.
So they're not independent.
They are conglomerated into alarger group, whereas somebody
like goal hanger has not takenexternal funding.
They are totally independent.
They're not part of the bbc orany other bigger group, and
that's why they can still callthemselves an indie podcast
studio brilliant, got it, thankyou so, finally, claire, the
(33:17):
para podcast awards yes, I haveput my teeth back in have been
launched.
It's the third year for theawards, which honour the best
and most compelling voices inthe paranormal, supernatural and
unexplained podcasting genres.
Claire Waite Brown (33:31):
That's my cup of tea.
I like those kind of shows.
Talking about awards, sam,while we were at the podcast
show, the shortlist for theInternational Women's Podcast
Awards were announced.
I'm actually going to theawards ceremony tomorrow night
because I was lucky enough to bea judge for one of the
categories and I wanted to havea little look through the
(33:53):
shortlist for, obviously, someindependent shows.
I asked you about independentstudio and a definition of that,
because I've been kind ofgrappling with what a definition
of an independent podcast isRight and I borrowed some words
from the website of theIndependent Podcast Awards.
(34:16):
Entries for those close on June, the 19th, I believe.
So thank you to those guys forgiving me a bit of help with my
research.
I looked through the shortlistfor shows of the IWPAs, for
shows that do not have financialsupport from an organisation
such as a publishing company,production company or brand
(34:36):
which is what you alluded to forGoldhanger and is not fronted
by a high profile celebrity forwhom the podcast is one of many
revenue streams.
So that's how I kind of guidedmyself as I was looking through
the shortlist.
Now there are probably morehere than I'm going to mention.
So if you're one of those and Idon't mention.
(34:58):
You.
Send us a comment or even asuper comment and I will correct
that next week.
But there are a few independentshows I saw there and they're
up against shows that havefinancial backing, that maybe
have access to well-known guestsor big stories.
Perhaps a team of productionstaff to lighten the workload,
(35:20):
perhaps a team of productionstaff to lighten the workload.
So these indie shows who don'thave that backing have done such
a good job and should be veryproud to be on this shortlist.
The first one that pops out tome are from people I know the
Story of Woman and Blue Mondays.
They jumped out at me so I'mreally pleased for Anna
Stockline, who's been a guest onCreativity Found, and Vicki
(35:42):
Stevenson.
Other shows I spotted includeMade For Us, bump To Business
Owner Retirement Rebel.
The Scars when Life Gives youLemons.
Actually I met Emma Levy at thepodcast show.
That show sounds amazebobs.
Why Mums Don't Jump Tales fromthe Singing Porch Mag Hags,
(36:05):
shelley and the Can Do Kids.
My Spouse has Dementia.
Parky Conversations meaningParkinson's that's what that one
is about.
Public Health is Dead.
Two Lives the Adult BalletStudio.
Grownups doing ballet againright up my street.
My Cotton Patch Moment Randomand Wonderful the Pink State and
(36:29):
the Cancer Caregiver.
So those are the ones I'm goingto be really looking out for
tomorrow to see if they actuallywin, and good luck to them.
I'm just going to mentionanother awards.
If that's okay, sam, go for it.
The True Crime Awards winnerswere announced on June 5th in
London and I'm very pleased tosay that the independently
(36:50):
produced podcast Watching TwoDetectives won True Crime Rookie
of the Year for its firstseries entitled If Tomorrow
Never Comes.
So the True Crime Awardscelebrate exceptional true crime
content from creators andproducers across the screen,
podcast and publishing sectors.
(37:11):
True Detectives is made bySarah Ferris, whose podcast
Conning the Con I recommended onepisode three of Creators from
True Fans, and she's also aguest on podcasting 2.0.
In practice, she's brilliant.
In the series Watching NewDetectives, retired Australian
police detectives Scott Roganand Peter Hogan revisit cases
(37:36):
they were involved in bringingnew insights and revelations.
Sarah also weaves in interviewswith other police officers as
well as family and friendsconnected to the case.
So listeners should expect tohear the human side of a true
crime story.
As you know, sam, I'm alwaysamazed by Sarah's storytelling
and production value.
(37:56):
So congrats, sarah, welldeserved.
Sam Sethi (37:59):
Yes, well deserved indeed.
I have to say this isinteresting, it's an eye opener,
and I like finding this side ofpodcasting because I'm on the
other side of podcasting thegeeky side and I'm always
looking at tech and newtechnology, and these are really
interesting to understand howaudio and podcasting, you know,
(38:21):
the topics that are covered areso interesting.
They're varied.
You know, I laughed at why mumsdon't jump.
I have a wife with two childrenand I exactly understand that.
I think you know when we, whenwe ask often where is the voice
of women in podcasting?
Because it's often mendominating it.
I think it's because men talkabout the nuts and bolts of
(38:42):
podcasting, the bits and bytesof it all, and these are the
much more thoughtful, heartfeltstories that I think we need to
promote.
This is part of why we wantedto do this show, which is to
bring to life the fact that itisn't all about Joe Rogan, but
there are brilliant podcaststhat have been created by
independent people who have manythings in their lives to do but
(39:03):
who still manage to produce apodcast week in, week out, or
month in, month out.
Claire Waite Brown (39:08):
Yeah, and they're very often as well.
Telling the stories of otherpeople and sharing those stories
helps the listeners who may bein similar situations.
It's really givingencouragement for people to
understand that you can dothings, and here's some stories
to help you along the way.
Oh, yes, I love my indies.
Sam Sethi (39:28):
So do I, and that's it for this week, claire.
Our audio is recorded andedited using Riverside this week
, and we're hosted by ourfriends Buzzsprout.
Claire Waite Brown (39:37):
You can support this show by streaming
sats from your True Fans walletor leaving us a super comment.
And if you're still not surewhat those mean, have a listen
to our sister show Fan Zone,where we explain everything you
need to know in really reallyshort episodes.
Better still, you can become amonthly supporter of this show.
Sam Sethi (40:01):
And if you'd like to advertise or sponsor this show,
please email me, sam@ truefans.
fm, for further details.
And that's it, I guess, claire,till next week.
Claire Waite Brown (40:10):
Bye, Don't forget.
You can keep listening to hearmore from this episode's
featured creator.
Why did you want to start thispodcast and how did you come up
with that format?
Did you do a lot of planning tocome up with those ideas?
Joana PR Neves (40:29):
It's interesting because I started with this
idea that I really wanted to doa podcast about contemporary art
and that was it.
And for a long time I kept theidea in the fridge and I didn't
quite have the hang of it.
I didn't know exactly what theformat would be.
And as soon as I found theformat, which was in the
(40:52):
beginning, an art specialist, anart lover who doesn't work in
the art field, go and seeexhibitions separately, talk
about them for the podcasts,that was it.
And then I was on the loose.
It was everything just kind ofcame together in some ways,
Because I knew that the podcastis something that I would have
the skill set to do, but alsothat it provided a really
(41:18):
interesting tool to connect withaudiences in a completely
different way than we usually doin contemporary art.
So that was kind of thethinking behind it.
Claire Waite Brown (41:30):
Tell me about you, then.
Joana PR Neves (41:31):
What's your background and I'm artistic
director of Draw in commercialgalleries to being an
independent curator, to writing,to doing my PhD and do tons of
(42:05):
research and really denseacademic writing.
So all of that has given me theassurance and the composure to
say, yeah, I think I havesomething to say and I think I
might have some angles here toexplore.
Claire Waite Brown (42:22):
Yeah, I wonder if you can look at the
exhibition differently, becauseyou're thinking about your
audience and not just yourself.
So it might open up the way youexperience a show in a
different way.
Joana PR Neves (42:38):
Completely it.
Actually, I was always likethat.
I don't like good art.
I think that the idea of themasterpiece is something that
we've inherited from this veryold traditional way of looking
at art history.
That's not what drives me toart at all, but there's always
(42:59):
that sense of oh, I'm notsomeone who likes photography,
or I'm not someone who likesthis, or I don't like that kind
of style, and I've always triedto overcome the notion of style
or your natural penchant to gofor something, because that's
not what art is about.
But art is aesthetic, isn't it?
(43:20):
It has an appearance, it hasbeauty somewhere in there, and
so it has become a reallybeautiful experience to be able
to understand where the artistis coming from, because I have
to explain it, I have to put itout there in an understandable
way for the audience, in anunderstandable way for the
(43:46):
audience, and it has transformedthe way I see and I experience
things, and I feel that for theaudience and for myself, I think
it's some and people tell methat it's a transformative
experience and people tell me oh, it's funny, because ever since
you talked about that artistnow I've seen this one, which is
kind of similar, and eventhough it's not something I
navigate towards.
I feel like I get it and that,for me, is so good.
(44:10):
You know, it really is whatart's all about, you know.
Claire Waite Brown (44:14):
Yeah, and it's wonderful to have that
medium to be able to communicatethat as well with anybody, to
be able to communicate that aswell with anybody anywhere could
find that podcast and find whatyou're saying.
Let's talk about the podcastyside of podcasting.
With regards to, like, whatkind of equipment you use, what
(44:34):
kind of I don't know yourhosting companies, how do you
record?
Give me a little rundown ofyour podcasting process.
Joana PR Neves (44:41):
All right.
So I record at home andremotely.
I use Riverside becauseRiverside is part well, comes
with your Spotify hostingplatform, so I use both.
I started with Zencastr and Iused Zencastr to record and
publish the episodes throughZencastr and I thought, oh, I
may as well go to Spotify.
(45:03):
Someone told me that it was forfree and that Riverside was for
free as well, which is not true.
Don't fall for that one,because they only do five hours
of free recording a month, which, if you're really podcasting,
is not enough.
It's funny because it's so easyto set up, right, you want to
set up your tech, it's easy.
You have a computer, you have amic, you have good headphones
(45:25):
and that's it, you're done.
Then it's a question of whetheryou use Riverside to edit or if
you edit outside, using visualsand doing videos, because
Spotify has very clearinstructions of what is going to
give you visibility.
So, to promote your podcast,they really challenge you to do
(45:49):
clips, for example, for yourpodcast, to have a trailer, to
do images, and so, because I'mso new at this and because it is
a niche podcast in some ways,but also could be major, like
everyone loves art and it couldreally be something that could
become, within that niche,global.
Let's say, you know, you havepeople everywhere want to know
(46:12):
about artists and art, etc.
So I thought I may as well justdo what they say.
And also, it's art, so maybepeople would love to have
visuals, because I'm talkingabout exhibitions that some
people are not going toexperience.
I went for it and in that sense, I lost FL Studios, which was
the software I used to editsound in a really precise I'm a
(46:35):
bit of a maniac with sound in areally precise way and Riverside
I don't know if you want me togo into the minutiae of things,
but Riverside is very differentand you're editing sound and
image, so it's a whole otherthing.
Claire Waite Brown (46:48):
Yeah, what was I going to say next?
I don't know.
Time, that was it.
Time, time.
How do you fit this in to therest of your life?
You sound a bit like me.
I'm overly on on the soundthing.
I will spend a lot of time onediting and you are doing more
(47:09):
background work than I am aswell, and you've got quality.
Joana PR Neves (47:14):
It could, because when you're doing a
(47:45):
podcast solo, with the formatthat I have, with research
behind, etc.
You're doing basically the jobof five people.
So you have to be very mindfulof that, I think.
And you know, fitting in thepodcast just means that I'm very
lucky to have a podcast thathas a theme that bleeds into the
rest of what I do, and so ofcourse I use what I'm doing, the
(48:07):
artists I'm working, I mean use.
They are the subject in someways, and I also tried to focus
on exhibitions because I waslosing the passion to go to
exhibitions because they kind ofbecame a thing of oh, have you
seen this exhibition?
And then I would visit and Iremember very clearly one day
(48:29):
leaving the show and thinkingI've done this, Like I've done
this, Did you do the tape, Didyou do the check, you know, and
not even realizing where I stoodand exploring that experience,
and I was kind of getting, yeah,losing the passion.
It was all about checklists,and so I'm lucky that this fits
(48:52):
into the holistically in my workobligation schedule etc.
But it did add a lot of extratime of work.
Claire Waite Brown (49:01):
Yeah.
Joana PR Neves (49:02):
For sure, for sure yeah.
it's out there and people can get to it and
they can very organically bedriven to what you're doing in a
way that if you didn't havepodcasting, a lot of people
wouldn't have that voice thetopics that are covered are so
interesting and varied.
Sam Sethi (00:21):
You know there are brilliant podcasts that have
been created by independentpeople who have many things in
their lives to do but who stillmanage to produce a podcast week
in, week out or month in, monthout.
Claire Waite Brown (00:33):
Welcome to Creators from True Fans.
I'm independent podcaster,Claire Waite Brown, and I'm Sam.
Sam Sethi (00:41):
Sethi, the CEO of True Fans.
Claire Waite Brown (00:42):
Each episode , we'll chat with an independent
creator, whether a podcaster ormusician, about their creative
experiences.
Sam Sethi (00:51):
And we'll answer questions from independent
creators about the True Fansfeatures that can help them with
discovery, interactivity andmonetization.
Claire Waite Brown (01:00):
We'll get interactive and see what our
listeners have been saying inthe comments and super comments.
Sam Sethi (01:06):
And discuss what's happening in the wider world.
That could be a benefit toindependent creators.
Hi, Claire.
Claire Waite Brown (01:13):
Hi Sam, how are you?
Sam Sethi (01:15):
I'm very good Now.
This week our featured podcastis Exhibitionistas.
Claire, you interviewed thehost.
Claire Waite Brown (01:21):
Yes, Joana PR Neves is the host of
Exhibitionistas and I chattedwith her about her podcast, what
it's about, why she wanted tomake it and about some of the
challenges that she experienceswhen producing and promoting a
podcast which I'm sure manyother creators will relate to.
(01:41):
I was also able to give somethoughts on how a few features
within True Fans could alleviatesome of those frustrations.
So here's our chat.
Hello, hello, hello.
I am here today with Joanna P RNeves.
Well, at least that's how I sayit, joanna, how do you say it?
Joana PR Neves (02:02):
I say Joana P R Neves it, I say Joana P R Neves.
Claire Waite Brown (02:06):
And that is from what part of the world?
From Lisbon, Portugal.
Oh, brilliant, okay, right,let's get into it.
First, tell me, please, what isthe name of your show and what
is it all about.
Joana PR Neves (02:18):
Right, so my show is called Exhibitionistas
and it's about contemporary arts, is called Exhibitionistas and
it's about contemporary arts,artist exhibitions and theory
for everyone.
So the idea is that it isapproachable and not elitist as
you would normally considercontemporary art to be.
Claire Waite Brown (02:37):
Yeah, how do you decide which artists, which
shows you're going to cover,and do you have guests ever?
Joana PR Neves (02:46):
So we have three types of formats.
So there's the exhibitiondiscussions, which are always
done with a co-host, so theissue is finding a co-host.
I think that's one of thechallenges.
And then I have guests,sometimes people who can bring a
different perspective on ouridea of what an exhibition is or
(03:07):
what the materials of makingexhibitions can be Like.
New Technologies was a big,successful episode recently.
And then there's video slashaudio essays where I read a text
.
There's images if you want tolook at the images.
There's images if you want tolook at the images, and there's
a sort of a flow of a conceptual, speculative narrative that is
(03:32):
approachable, simple, thatallows you to look sometimes at
a work that might seem a bitcryptic and to understand from
within what it might be about.
And these are much shorterepisodes.
And then in third season I willbring episodes that are topical
, that will go into contemporaryarts through unexpected angles
(03:55):
such as tattoos, for example.
Claire Waite Brown (03:56):
I've got two questions now.
One is actually about audience,and then the other is about
audio and visual.
So let's start with audience.
Who were you thinking theaudience would be?
Who were you hoping or who didyou feel that you wanted to
communicate this with?
That's such a good question.
Joana PR Neves (04:16):
It is particularly interesting within
the contemporary art field, thatquestion because when I started
the podcast I thought this isfor people who think art is, or
contemporary art is, horribleand they don't like it.
And then I thought, no, theywill never listen to your
podcast.
This is for art curious peoplewho want to know a bit more.
(04:37):
And then you start your podcastand you realize that for people
to know your podcast you haveto promote it.
So there's, of course, theprofessional audience, there's
the artists.
There's a lot of artists wholove listening to podcasts and
who have the ideal settingthey're working, they're in
their studios, they press play,that's it.
And then you have people whovery organically get to your
(05:02):
podcast who you don't know.
I don't know who those peoplein Canada are, I have no clue.
But I think for me the realchallenge is to get to those
people who want to know a bitmore and who may be a bit
intimidated by art podcasts,because art podcasts are usually
(05:22):
very much within their ownbubble and they kind of speak a
jargon or they're interviewbased and it's just artists
speaking.
So I kind of feel like I have asort of a unique project, which
is that I deal with likemainstream art, so let's say,
artists with lots of exposure,but at the same time I want it
to be interesting, approachablefor anyone to listen to, and I
(05:46):
think that's my challenge.
Claire Waite Brown (05:48):
Yeah, I understand that and you've
partially answered.
What was my next question whenyou say about artists in the
studios pressing play?
But then I'm going to turn intothe challenges.
What are the challenges ofspeaking about a visual
experience?
Joana PR Neves (06:09):
I would say and I hope you guys are all
listening that it's the co-hostswho never describe the off work
they're talking about.
It's such a challenge because Ialways have a little pep talk,
I explain and I say do you know,put yourself in the shoes of
(06:31):
the person who's listening andnot watching.
Most people listen to audio.
They don't go to the videos.
They don't know why you feel socompelled by the artwork to
think about your dad.
They have no idea what theconnection is, so you can't.
Compelled by the artwork tothink about your dad.
They have no idea what theconnection is, so you can't go
to the subject before youdescribe the object.
(06:52):
And that really is the challenge, because it's so pleasurable
when someone describes somethingto you and you can close your
eyes and just imagine what thatthing is.
Even for me, listening tosomeone describe visually
something is such a pleasure,but it's so difficult.
(07:13):
And even myself I forgetsometimes.
You know you're in theexhibition or you're talking
about the artist's career andsay, well, they worked with this
artist, this major artistcalled Blah Blah in the Project
Dada, and that was abreakthrough because they
understood this.
And then, if you don't know theartwork, I'm referencing.
You then got to go back.
Yeah, yes, and with everythingyou can't presume people know.
(07:37):
So you have to be careful.
If you say something is reallycrucial, you have to
contextualize that can separateyour audience right away.
You know, if they listen andthey say, okay, this person does
not explain the references,this is for people who are
really steeped in the art worldand that's it.
Claire Waite Brown (07:56):
So that's the challenge, yeah.
And they're going to say, right, I've got no idea what she's
talking about, I'm giving up.
What frustrates you aboutpodcasting?
It might not be the process, itmight be you know stuff that
surrounds it.
Joana PR Neves (08:08):
It might be the marketing of it, anything I
think the frustrating thing isthat you suddenly which is part
of the really amazing thingabout it, it's they go together,
is that suddenly you have aplatform where you can put your
content out there in a way thatis incredibly accessible and you
(08:33):
have a voice.
You develop your own voice.
It's incredibly flexible, youcan fine tune it as you go and
so it's out there and people canget to it and they can very
organically be driven to whatyou're doing in a way that if
you didn't have podcasting, alot of people wouldn't have that
voice right, because media, Imean, how do you get to the big
(08:55):
media and how do you get to havean article written every week
somewhere you know it's radio orradio whatever.
But at the same time, I thinkwhat frustrates me with it is
that it is so accessible thatpromoting it becomes an ongoing,
unrelenting obligation onsocial media and it has lots of
(09:16):
limitations.
That's suddenly celebritiescome in, they have the money,
they have the team, they haveall the means and suddenly they
are installed in a medium thatwill kind of shadow everybody
around you.
That's what I think on bad days.
On good days, I think that'sactually a good thing, because
(09:41):
in my age bracket in my fieldand I think in Europe people are
still very uneducated to whatpodcasting is.
It's still weird with my artpeers to say hi, hello, I'm an
independent writer and curatorand I'm a podcaster.
And when I say podcaster,people kind of jump.
(10:01):
They have sort of knee-jump,knee-jump reaction to oh, you're
an influencer, what do you mean?
Do you sell soap, you know?
So, yeah, I think those are thefrustrations and the but.
So good to have this medium.
It's so flexible and can do somany things.
(10:22):
I have so many ideas.
Claire Waite Brown (10:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's great.
Do you have any financialsupport for your show and do you
find that you haveinteractivity with your
listeners?
You know, rather than justseeing numbers, do you actually
do your listeners communicatewith you?
Joana PR Neves (10:41):
That's a really good and important question, I
think, and that's I think that'spart of the frustrating thing
in the promotion side of things,which is that and I attribute
that to my milieu as well, tothe field that I'm developing
the podcast in as well which isthat people in the art field
don't really engage that much.
(11:03):
They find it a bit ridiculous.
It's not cool to go and say Ilove what you do because it's
fandom, and in Europe peopledon't behave like that.
Anyway.
We're not fans, we're notAmericans, and there's a huge
distrust with social media, andpodcasting is associated very
closely with social media, andso that's a difficulty for sure.
(11:25):
And I think with monetizationit's the same issue whereby,
first and foremost, when you'relistening to a podcast, you're
going about your life.
There's no direct way of payingfor it.
There is the tradition of radiothat you don't pay for, so you
kind of feel that that should befree and you don't want to be a
(11:46):
member or to pay every month,although you do pay a delivery
every month, but that's ano-brainer.
People don't hesitate, they payfor the Apple storage
No-brainer, don't even thinkabout it.
But then compensating someonefor the endless hours of work no
, no, no, not going to do that,sorry.
Do I sound a bit bitter?
Because I am?
No, no, no, not going to dothat, sorry.
(12:08):
Do I sound a bit bitter?
Because I am, and I have thistalk to people who listen to my
podcast every two weeks.
I tell them this, complainingand doing the cognitive
dissonance of I'm not includingyou, but I know they don't pay
for it and people go like, oh,yeah, yeah, that's true, we are
like that.
No connection whatsoever,doesn't, you know, get home to.
(12:33):
So what I have to do is I haveto send newsletters, do social
media interventions I want tocall them and also, in the art
world, you will never get theJoe Rogan audience or the
PewDiePie who started playing agame on YouTube and suddenly
became a millionaire.
That's not going to happen toyou, you know.
So you need a sponsor andbecause I came into this kind of
(12:54):
like, I rolled into it.
I'm taking my time to perfectit.
I want to do a few videos onsocial media, funny ones, like a
sort of editing thing, where Ifilm myself editing and then I
film myself going to the showand then I film myself reading
and I feel myself taking notes,you know, watching a YouTube
(13:16):
video and count the hours andsay OK, this is what I do and
this is the time it takes me.
Some people still think that Ijust record a conversation.
Claire Waite Brown (13:24):
Yeah.
Joana PR Neves (13:25):
Yeah, and that I just upload it.
So I think there's an educationto be done in regards to
podcasting and to the necessityof accessibility.
Claire Waite Brown (13:39):
Yeah, I completely understand.
I do like the phrase you use inyour show notes, which is
something along the lines of youwouldn't leave the cafe without
paying for the latte.
Joana PR Neves (13:45):
That's what I have in my newsletter as well.
Claire Waite Brown (13:49):
Yeah, brilliant.
So I'm going to talk about acouple of those little things.
Actually, with regards to TrueFans, yes, I'm very curious.
Curious.
Do you know anything aboutpodcasting 2.0?
Features the term podcasting2.0 I?
Joana PR Neves (14:05):
know because you sent me the questions.
So thank you for that.
That's very clever, I gosh.
I would have sounded like Ilived under a rock, and also it
gave me the opportunities.
Clever because then you kind ofget to know in your own terms.
So that was really interestingresearch.
(14:27):
I have to say so, I'm still anewcomer to this podcasting
thing.
So I learned a lot and I didhear about it and I did read
about it.
I had no idea what it was and Iin my mind I just said that's
for later, like it's in thefridge, and so because of the
question, I thought it wasreally interesting.
Because, first of all, forengagement, it's really
(14:48):
interesting that it will be doneacross platforms.
It's more democratic.
But also the time it takes toreply to everyone in all the
platforms you're in is mindboggling.
I'm almost kind of happy peopledon't engage that much, because
I keep thinking the day peopleare going to start doing it like
(15:10):
how am I going to handle that?
So that's great.
And also the idea that you cantip, that you can.
You know all of that isaccessible, because what most
people tell me is that you know,I listen to podcasts when I'm
walking the dog or whatever, socleaning, so it's back there in
the computer.
I have to go to your website.
I mean, I'm not going to dothat, and so that is really
(15:36):
great.
Is that the tagging of themusicians or the people that
participate, I think is reallyimportant, because a lot of
people, I think, like yourself,use the podcast for your other
stuff right, and you also invitepeople that you want to promote
, and so that's really important.
And Spotify does it, forexample, youtube does it
(15:59):
automatically, and so I had thisreally outlandish, surrealist
experience of big artist thatthe podcast is about, or their
wife, who was also very famous.
So I think this idea of taggingthe collaborators, I mean
(16:27):
whatever makes sense for eachperson's podcast, is really good
, because it is taking usseriously.
It's taking the mediumseriously as well.
I'm only a bit afraid ofBitcoin, to be honest.
It's something that I'm very,very suspicious of, partly
because I don't understand it.
It's subjected to trends and tohearsay, to rumour.
(16:52):
It's not currency, establishedcurrency in some way.
Of course, again, I do notunderstand what I'm talking
about.
So I hope I answered yourquestion.
Claire Waite Brown (17:01):
Yeah, no, definitely Thank you for doing a
bit of looking into it as well.
So the Bitcoin thing is sooften what I hear from people,
I'm sure, and you were alsotalking about going home and
having to do something, you know, having to go to buy me a
coffee or whatever it is.
Now I've been listening to yourshow while I've been driving
and I have set up in TrueFans topay five sats per minute I'm
(17:26):
listening to.
So five sats is like 0.01 pence, oh, interesting.
So I don't have to then doanything.
All I have to do is listen andsome money goes into your
TrueFans wallet.
Now, the way Sam's done it inTrueFans takes away that Bitcoin
fear as well, because theTrueFans wallet runs at Bitcoin.
(17:48):
But when you take it out, youcan take it as a creator, you
can take it to Stripe.
Oh, ok, in TrueFans you'vealready claimed your show.
So you have a wallet inTrueFans now and if someone like
myself either sends you a supercomment with some sats or fiat
currency attached or, as I'mdoing, streaming a small amount,
(18:10):
it goes into your wallet andthen at some point in the future
, you can take that out in realmoney and take it to the shops
where you can spend it on things, where I can buy my latte that
I wouldn't steal.
Joana PR Neves (18:24):
That's interesting.
That's really interesting.
That I didn't understand.
Okay, that's really interesting.
And so how does it work?
So can I?
Am I allowed to ask questions?
So how does it work?
Because then you have to hostyour podcast on True.
Claire Waite Brown (18:41):
Fans.
You joined True Fans when yousent the comment to creators to
tell us about your show.
And then, when you do that,true Fans makes you a wallet
straight away yes, a digitalwallet within True Fans.
So then, when you've claimedyour show and that show is
attached to your name withinTrue Fans, then anything that
(19:02):
gets paid there just goesstraight to that wallet.
I had no clue.
Joana PR Neves (19:09):
I will have a look.
I'll have 2p in there.
That's amazing.
Claire Waite Brown (19:16):
The other thing as a podcaster, you can
look at your show page on TrueFans and you can look at the tab
called Activity and it willshow you that I became a fan and
that I've streamed so many sats, so you can start in that one
place.
You can see that people mayhave commented or sent you sats
(19:36):
and stuff like that.
So once now, obviously nobody'sgoing to know that unless
people tell people about TrueFans and about how it works.
So that's another kind ofthat's another stage in the
process of a bit of like dynamiccontent or something to say.
Did you know you can do this inTrue Fans?
But just have a look at yourshow on True Fans and you can
(19:58):
see some of the things.
The other one I thought aboutfor you was chapters, and
chapters is a podcasting 2.0feature that you can now you're
the host that you're with nowwon't allow you to do that with
them, but other hostingcompanies and you might think
about this just for the future,just to have it in the back of
(20:19):
your mind you can put atimestamp and then you can
attach a picture to that bitthat you're talking about.
So when you're describingsomething, the people don't have
to look at it, but if theywanted to, you could have a
picture of that.
That shows up on the podcastapp and also you can have a link
(20:39):
.
If people wanted to go back toit later, they could see all
your photos from that exhibitionfor example Very interesting.
Yeah, so there's this otherreally good show.
It's called Podcasting 2.0 inPractice and it's hosted by
Claire Waite-Brown, who I'veheard is quite good at this kind
of thing.
I don't know who that is and theepisode I did with Daniel J
(21:04):
Lewis about chapters.
He explains what fun things youknow you could do with it and I
just think, as we spoke aboutthat visual and audible
connection, you can still listenand hear that description that
you're giving, but then, ifsomebody actually wants to see
it as well, they can that's sointeresting because for
professionals it's actuallyreally, really useful, because I
(21:25):
have lots of people who tell meoh my god, it's so great what
you do because I'm can't be inlondon all the time.
Joana PR Neves (21:30):
There was this really important show that you
covered and you know I waslistening.
But yeah, it's such a shamethat it doesn't have images,
because then you have to lookthem up.
Oh no, I was thinking, shoot, Ilistened to your podcast on
Spotify.
I should have listened on TrueFans.
Ok, I'll skip to True Fans now.
Claire Waite Brown (21:48):
Yeah, do have a little look at that.
Have a listen to Fan Zone andPodcasting 2.0 in practice.
They're nice and short and easyto listen explains those things
a bit more.
So I'm glad I was able tointroduce you to some of those
concepts.
Let's move on to how can peopleconnect with you.
Joana PR Neves (22:06):
So my podcast is called exhibitionistas and it's
on all platforms and it'sreally good to follow on
instagram because I do all theouttakes and like fun clips and
also little video edits of theexhibitions I visit, my
impressions as I come out of theexhibition that are really
fresh and don't end up on thepodcast.
(22:27):
So I think that's a really goodway to connect and to leave
comments.
And also there's the websiteexhibitionistespodcastcom where
you can get in touch with me.
Websiteexhibitionistespodcastcom where
you can get in touch with me,work with me, that would be
great.
And also, if you want to leavecomments, you know, or if you
want to leave suggestions,that's a good way.
(22:47):
I'm on Blue Sky as well.
Everything's calledExhibitionist.
I probably forgot lots ofthings, but Brilliant.
Claire Waite Brown (22:52):
Thank you so much, Joanna.
Another way people can commenton your show is through the True
Fans app as well.
There's a tab called commentsor there's a little speech mark
icon and people can comment andcommunicate directly with you on
the True Fans app.
Joana PR Neves (23:08):
I forget, of course, it's so fascinating.
The problem is that my problemis that now you're giving me
another thing to research and Iknow there's a rabbit hole there
and I'm going to fall into itvery, very quickly.
So, yeah, they're good, butthat's good, it's good stuff I
think the markets and theindustry is evolving and we need
to find a way for it to existin a good way.
Sam Sethi (23:32):
There we go, joanna, really interesting from
Exhibitionistas.
Thank you, claire, for doingthat interview.
Go, joanna, really interestingfrom Exhibitionistas.
Thank you, claire, for doingthat interview.
And you can hear more from thatinterview at the end of this
episode of Creators, whereJoanna talks about her art
background and her actualpodcasting process, including
how she fits in around herfull-time work schedule.
Gosh, yes, that's the life ofan independent podcast creator,
isn't it?
Claire Waite Brown (23:53):
Exactly.
If you'd like to chat with usabout your independent podcast
or your music, send a comment orsuper comment in True Fans to
any Creators episode by clickingon the speech bubble icon or on
the comments tab.
Sam Sethi (24:11):
Time for the questions.
Claire, We've been collectingthe questions that listeners
have sent us in.
Which questions have you chosento ask me this week?
Claire Waite Brown (24:18):
Well, this is an important question for
podcast creators wanting to makethe most of everything that
they can do on True Fans, and itactually relates back to my
interview with Joanna, who hasalready done this and whose show
has collected somemicropayments, and that question
is how do I claim my show?
Sam Sethi (24:40):
So, once you've created your account on True
Fans, you find your podcast.
Click on it, you get to thepodcast page and on the cover
art itself for the podcast,you'll see a little icon, an
exclamation mark.
Click on that icon and it willpop up a box that says enter the
email that you have within yourRSS feed.
(25:01):
Now, a couple of years back, wehad a problem where people were
spamming RSS feeds so all thehosts took out the email by
default, which is a shame.
But you can actually go back toyour host in the host dashboard
and have your email addedtemporarily for 24 or 48 hours,
(25:23):
republish your podcast and thenyou'll see that we have it then
available in TrueFans and youcan enter your email.
Now that's the current way ofdoing it.
It's a bit messy becauseclearly, if you want to claim
your podcast, you want to do itstraight away, and you're like
oh, I have to now wait, do I?
Well, we're working on a newmethod called the verify tag, so
(25:45):
all the hosts currently supportit, and the idea is we'll give
you a little code in TrueFansthat's unique to your podcast.
You then go to your creator'sdashboard, add that code in and
then we will be able to read inyour RSS feed that code and
verify that you own that podcast.
So it's a little step to claimyour podcast.
(26:05):
We have to be secure that youare the owner.
We don't want someone elsetaking over your podcast, making
changes and then that will bedisastrous.
But once you've claimed it, yougo to your creator's dashboard.
You'll be able to see yourpodcast.
How many people listen to yourpodcast, who's the most active?
Who listened to it first?
(26:25):
How long did people listen toit in total?
What was the average time eachlistener listened to your
podcast episodes?
How much money were paid, andso more.
So all that is called firstparty data.
So I highly highly recommend ifyou have a podcast, you go and
claim it.
And of course, the other thingclaire is you can go and set up
(26:47):
your true fans wallet in yourcreator's dashboard and then
start to have your fans pay youdirectly into your wallet.
Claire Waite Brown (26:56):
Yeah, it's brilliant.
It's absolute box of delights.
The creator's dashboard.
Sam Sethi (27:02):
Excellent.
Now, my favourite time of theweek it's Fanbox.
This is where we talk to peoplewho've given us comments Any
comments that we had.
Claire Waite Brown (27:10):
So one of the comments is from Joanna P
Arneves, who said I can't see mycomment here so I'll repost.
I agree that celebs doingpodcasts is a bummer.
You're saying out loud whateveryone is thinking.
(27:32):
That's in relation to aquestion you asked me in the
last episode.
I have a podcast calledExhibitionistas about
contemporary art and I'd love tobe featured and, as you know,
because of that comment, joannahas been featured.
And we also had a comment fromChristine Grittmon Hi, claire,
(27:53):
excited to see this new projectfrom you and, of course, I'd
love for let's Talk About Brandto get involved.
So Christine is someone I havemet through the Digital Women
Network and I have sent her anemail with a link to how to come
chat with me about let's TalkAbout Brand.
So, christine, go to my diary,let's book a date.
Sam Sethi (28:16):
Excellent, this is how you do it.
So if anyone else, let's goback over it, claire.
Claire Waite Brown (28:32):
Anyone else wants to come on the show as a
featured guest.
What do they need to do lowerthan that?
A selection of tabs, and one ofthese is called comments.
Click on either of those andit's really clear how you can
leave a comment for that episodeand if you want to, you can
turn that into a super commentby attaching a little bit of
money to it.
Sam Sethi (28:54):
I like the sound of that money.
Claire Waite Brown (28:57):
Sam, let's go out into the real world.
Have you spotted anything thisweek that independent creators
and their fans might also wantto know about?
Sam Sethi (29:07):
yeah, there's a couple of stories that I think
will really resonate with people.
The first one is a report bypaul mandel.
The big thing claire at themoment for poor independent
podcast creators is should theydo video, video, video video.
It seems to be the mantra right, and that's because everyone
says YouTube is dominatingpodcasts.
(29:28):
Well, signal Hill Insights,where Paul works has said there
is evidence that actually we arestill using an audio first
platform and it's time to tonedown the discourse or the you
must do video.
So that's the good news, Ithink, for independent podcast
creators who have been worriedor scratching their heads about
how or when they should do video.
(29:49):
Video is interesting and I thinkvideo works when you've got
something more than just twotalking heads to do.
But I think if you're justhaving two talking heads, yes,
be on YouTube if you want to.
I mean, it's a large platform,it has an algorithm, but also be
aware that I don't think theworld and their dog are going to
(30:09):
beat their door to your podcastjust because you're on YouTube.
So, yes, good news, youtubeisn't the only place where you
can do podcasting.
Claire Waite Brown (30:18):
Brilliant.
I completely agree, sam.
There is a lot of pressure onus independent podcasts to do
more work, and do we really wantto do more work?
I tend to use YouTube when Ihave a bit of spare time to
maybe put some highlights upjust for the algorithm point of
view, but I am an audio girlthrough and through.
Sam Sethi (30:39):
Yeah, and I think you know, when you're driving, when
you're at the gym, when you'rewalking, when you're on the
train or when you're busy doingother things, video does not
work.
And there's a place for radio,there's a place for TV, there's
a place for podcasting audio andthere's a place for YouTube
video.
Claire Waite Brown (30:55):
But it's good to have that report, I
think, to give a bit ofreassurance.
Sam Sethi (31:00):
Yeah, to counter all the arguments which, to be fair,
has come from YouTube PR, soit's nice to have independent
people looking at it and saying,no, that's not quite true.
Now, one of the other thingsthat I think podcasters are
worried about is actually whenthey have to do a formalised
script.
We are recording today usingriverside.
(31:21):
We have used dscript as well inthe past, but dscript have just
come out with a new featurecalled a teleprompter, which we
all know what one is.
But it's nice now that you canactually, if you are having to
do a formalized I don't knowpodcast ad, because you're the
host and it's a host read ad.
Maybe you need to read it out,and now you can have a
(31:43):
teleprompter within Descript tohelp you just read out while
you're working through yourvideo.
Cool, the next story that Ithought might be really
interesting and I think it'sgreat news Goalhanger, which is
the biggest independent podcastcreator in the UK.
You might have seen.
The rest is football, the restis entertainment, the rest is
money.
They are now announcing a newfree, monthly masterclass.
(32:06):
You can join sessions with thecompany to learn more about
being a producer, an editor,commercial leads.
These will all be streamed liveand you can watch them or
listen to them free as well.
So that's great.
Thank you to Goalhanger fordoing that.
It just brings more knowledgeinto the marketplace for all the
hardworking independent podcastcreators.
Claire Waite Brown (32:25):
Can I ask you a question about that, Sam?
What is an independent podcaststudio?
Sam Sethi (32:32):
So they are not funded.
They are not part of a largergroup.
They're not owned.
So Wondery, for example, is notan independent podcast creator.
They are part of Amazon.
Audible is the same, and thereare many others.
So, for example, there's amassive group called PodX now
which owns Listen, which ownsmany other companies.
(32:53):
Platform Media is one of thoseas well.
So they're not independent.
They are conglomerated into alarger group.
So they're not independent.
They are conglomerated into alarger group, whereas somebody
like goal hanger has not takenexternal funding.
They are totally independent.
They're not part of the bbc orany other bigger group, and
that's why they can still callthemselves an indie podcast
studio brilliant, got it, thankyou so, finally, claire, the
(33:17):
para podcast awards yes, I haveput my teeth back in have been
launched.
It's the third year for theawards, which honour the best
and most compelling voices inthe paranormal, supernatural and
unexplained podcasting genres.
Claire Waite Brown (33:31):
That's my cup of tea.
I like those kind of shows.
Talking about awards, sam,while we were at the podcast
show, the shortlist for theInternational Women's Podcast
Awards were announced.
I'm actually going to theawards ceremony tomorrow night
because I was lucky enough to bea judge for one of the
categories and I wanted to havea little look through the
(33:53):
shortlist for, obviously, someindependent shows.
I asked you about independentstudio and a definition of that,
because I've been kind ofgrappling with what a definition
of an independent podcast isRight and I borrowed some words
from the website of theIndependent Podcast Awards.
(34:16):
Entries for those close on June, the 19th, I believe.
So thank you to those guys forgiving me a bit of help with my
research.
I looked through the shortlistfor shows of the IWPAs, for
shows that do not have financialsupport from an organisation
such as a publishing company,production company or brand
(34:36):
which is what you alluded to forGoldhanger and is not fronted
by a high profile celebrity forwhom the podcast is one of many
revenue streams.
So that's how I kind of guidedmyself as I was looking through
the shortlist.
Now there are probably morehere than I'm going to mention.
So if you're one of those and Idon't mention.
(34:58):
You.
Send us a comment or even asuper comment and I will correct
that next week.
But there are a few independentshows I saw there and they're
up against shows that havefinancial backing, that maybe
have access to well-known guestsor big stories.
Perhaps a team of productionstaff to lighten the workload,
(35:20):
perhaps a team of productionstaff to lighten the workload.
So these indie shows who don'thave that backing have done such
a good job and should be veryproud to be on this shortlist.
The first one that pops out tome are from people I know the
Story of Woman and Blue Mondays.
They jumped out at me so I'mreally pleased for Anna
Stockline, who's been a guest onCreativity Found, and Vicki
(35:42):
Stevenson.
Other shows I spotted includeMade For Us, bump To Business
Owner Retirement Rebel.
The Scars when Life Gives youLemons.
Actually I met Emma Levy at thepodcast show.
That show sounds amazebobs.
Why Mums Don't Jump Tales fromthe Singing Porch Mag Hags,
(36:05):
shelley and the Can Do Kids.
My Spouse has Dementia.
Parky Conversations meaningParkinson's that's what that one
is about.
Public Health is Dead.
Two Lives the Adult BalletStudio.
Grownups doing ballet againright up my street.
My Cotton Patch Moment Randomand Wonderful the Pink State and
(36:29):
the Cancer Caregiver.
So those are the ones I'm goingto be really looking out for
tomorrow to see if they actuallywin, and good luck to them.
I'm just going to mentionanother awards.
If that's okay, sam, go for it.
The True Crime Awards winnerswere announced on June 5th in
London and I'm very pleased tosay that the independently
(36:50):
produced podcast Watching TwoDetectives won True Crime Rookie
of the Year for its firstseries entitled If Tomorrow
Never Comes.
So the True Crime Awardscelebrate exceptional true crime
content from creators andproducers across the screen,
podcast and publishing sectors.
(37:11):
True Detectives is made bySarah Ferris, whose podcast
Conning the Con I recommended onepisode three of Creators from
True Fans, and she's also aguest on podcasting 2.0.
In practice, she's brilliant.
In the series Watching NewDetectives, retired Australian
police detectives Scott Roganand Peter Hogan revisit cases
(37:36):
they were involved in bringingnew insights and revelations.
Sarah also weaves in interviewswith other police officers as
well as family and friendsconnected to the case.
So listeners should expect tohear the human side of a true
crime story.
As you know, sam, I'm alwaysamazed by Sarah's storytelling
and production value.
(37:56):
So congrats, sarah, welldeserved.
Sam Sethi (37:59):
Yes, well deserved indeed.
I have to say this isinteresting, it's an eye opener,
and I like finding this side ofpodcasting because I'm on the
other side of podcasting thegeeky side and I'm always
looking at tech and newtechnology, and these are really
interesting to understand howaudio and podcasting, you know,
(38:21):
the topics that are covered areso interesting.
They're varied.
You know, I laughed at why mumsdon't jump.
I have a wife with two childrenand I exactly understand that.
I think you know when we, whenwe ask often where is the voice
of women in podcasting?
Because it's often mendominating it.
I think it's because men talkabout the nuts and bolts of
(38:42):
podcasting, the bits and bytesof it all, and these are the
much more thoughtful, heartfeltstories that I think we need to
promote.
This is part of why we wantedto do this show, which is to
bring to life the fact that itisn't all about Joe Rogan, but
there are brilliant podcaststhat have been created by
independent people who have manythings in their lives to do but
(39:03):
who still manage to produce apodcast week in, week out, or
month in, month out.
Claire Waite Brown (39:08):
Yeah, and they're very often as well.
Telling the stories of otherpeople and sharing those stories
helps the listeners who may bein similar situations.
It's really givingencouragement for people to
understand that you can dothings, and here's some stories
to help you along the way.
Oh, yes, I love my indies.
Sam Sethi (39:28):
So do I, and that's it for this week, claire.
Our audio is recorded andedited using Riverside this week
, and we're hosted by ourfriends Buzzsprout.
Claire Waite Brown (39:37):
You can support this show by streaming
sats from your True Fans walletor leaving us a super comment.
And if you're still not surewhat those mean, have a listen
to our sister show Fan Zone,where we explain everything you
need to know in really reallyshort episodes.
Better still, you can become amonthly supporter of this show.
Sam Sethi (40:01):
And if you'd like to advertise or sponsor this show,
please email me, sam@ truefans.
fm, for further details.
And that's it, I guess, claire,till next week.
Claire Waite Brown (40:10):
Bye, Don't forget.
You can keep listening to hearmore from this episode's
featured creator.
Why did you want to start thispodcast and how did you come up
with that format?
Did you do a lot of planning tocome up with those ideas?
Joana PR Neves (40:29):
It's interesting because I started with this
idea that I really wanted to doa podcast about contemporary art
and that was it.
And for a long time I kept theidea in the fridge and I didn't
quite have the hang of it.
I didn't know exactly what theformat would be.
And as soon as I found theformat, which was in the
(40:52):
beginning, an art specialist, anart lover who doesn't work in
the art field, go and seeexhibitions separately, talk
about them for the podcasts,that was it.
And then I was on the loose.
It was everything just kind ofcame together in some ways,
Because I knew that the podcastis something that I would have
the skill set to do, but alsothat it provided a really
(41:18):
interesting tool to connect withaudiences in a completely
different way than we usually doin contemporary art.
So that was kind of thethinking behind it.
Claire Waite Brown (41:30):
Tell me about you, then.
Joana PR Neves (41:31):
What's your background and I'm artistic
director of Draw in commercialgalleries to being an
independent curator, to writing,to doing my PhD and do tons of
(42:05):
research and really denseacademic writing.
So all of that has given me theassurance and the composure to
say, yeah, I think I havesomething to say and I think I
might have some angles here toexplore.
Claire Waite Brown (42:22):
Yeah, I wonder if you can look at the
exhibition differently, becauseyou're thinking about your
audience and not just yourself.
So it might open up the way youexperience a show in a
different way.
Joana PR Neves (42:38):
Completely it.
Actually, I was always likethat.
I don't like good art.
I think that the idea of themasterpiece is something that
we've inherited from this veryold traditional way of looking
at art history.
That's not what drives me toart at all, but there's always
(42:59):
that sense of oh, I'm notsomeone who likes photography,
or I'm not someone who likesthis, or I don't like that kind
of style, and I've always triedto overcome the notion of style
or your natural penchant to gofor something, because that's
not what art is about.
But art is aesthetic, isn't it?
(43:20):
It has an appearance, it hasbeauty somewhere in there, and
so it has become a reallybeautiful experience to be able
to understand where the artistis coming from, because I have
to explain it, I have to put itout there in an understandable
way for the audience, in anunderstandable way for the
(43:46):
audience, and it has transformedthe way I see and I experience
things, and I feel that for theaudience and for myself, I think
it's some and people tell methat it's a transformative
experience and people tell me oh, it's funny, because ever since
you talked about that artistnow I've seen this one, which is
kind of similar, and eventhough it's not something I
navigate towards.
I feel like I get it and that,for me, is so good.
(44:10):
You know, it really is whatart's all about, you know.
Claire Waite Brown (44:14):
Yeah, and it's wonderful to have that
medium to be able to communicatethat as well with anybody, to
be able to communicate that aswell with anybody anywhere could
find that podcast and find whatyou're saying.
Let's talk about the podcastyside of podcasting.
With regards to, like, whatkind of equipment you use, what
(44:34):
kind of I don't know yourhosting companies, how do you
record?
Give me a little rundown ofyour podcasting process.
Joana PR Neves (44:41):
All right.
So I record at home andremotely.
I use Riverside becauseRiverside is part well, comes
with your Spotify hostingplatform, so I use both.
I started with Zencastr and Iused Zencastr to record and
publish the episodes throughZencastr and I thought, oh, I
may as well go to Spotify.
(45:03):
Someone told me that it was forfree and that Riverside was for
free as well, which is not true.
Don't fall for that one,because they only do five hours
of free recording a month, which, if you're really podcasting,
is not enough.
It's funny because it's so easyto set up, right, you want to
set up your tech, it's easy.
You have a computer, you have amic, you have good headphones
(45:25):
and that's it, you're done.
Then it's a question of whetheryou use Riverside to edit or if
you edit outside, using visualsand doing videos, because
Spotify has very clearinstructions of what is going to
give you visibility.
So, to promote your podcast,they really challenge you to do
(45:49):
clips, for example, for yourpodcast, to have a trailer, to
do images, and so, because I'mso new at this and because it is
a niche podcast in some ways,but also could be major, like
everyone loves art and it couldreally be something that could
become, within that niche,global.
Let's say, you know, you havepeople everywhere want to know
(46:12):
about artists and art, etc.
So I thought I may as well justdo what they say.
And also, it's art, so maybepeople would love to have
visuals, because I'm talkingabout exhibitions that some
people are not going toexperience.
I went for it and in that sense, I lost FL Studios, which was
the software I used to editsound in a really precise I'm a
(46:35):
bit of a maniac with sound in areally precise way and Riverside
I don't know if you want me togo into the minutiae of things,
but Riverside is very differentand you're editing sound and
image, so it's a whole otherthing.
Claire Waite Brown (46:48):
Yeah, what was I going to say next?
I don't know.
Time, that was it.
Time, time.
How do you fit this in to therest of your life?
You sound a bit like me.
I'm overly on on the soundthing.
I will spend a lot of time onediting and you are doing more
(47:09):
background work than I am aswell, and you've got quality.
Joana PR Neves (47:14):
It could, because when you're doing a
(47:45):
podcast solo, with the formatthat I have, with research
behind, etc.
You're doing basically the jobof five people.
So you have to be very mindfulof that, I think.
And you know, fitting in thepodcast just means that I'm very
lucky to have a podcast thathas a theme that bleeds into the
rest of what I do, and so ofcourse I use what I'm doing, the
(48:07):
artists I'm working, I mean use.
They are the subject in someways, and I also tried to focus
on exhibitions because I waslosing the passion to go to
exhibitions because they kind ofbecame a thing of oh, have you
seen this exhibition?
And then I would visit and Iremember very clearly one day
(48:29):
leaving the show and thinkingI've done this, Like I've done
this, Did you do the tape, Didyou do the check, you know, and
not even realizing where I stoodand exploring that experience,
and I was kind of getting, yeah,losing the passion.
It was all about checklists,and so I'm lucky that this fits
(48:52):
into the holistically in my workobligation schedule etc.
But it did add a lot of extratime of work.
Claire Waite Brown (49:01):
Yeah.
Joana PR Neves (49:02):
For sure, for sure yeah.
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