October 13, 2025 • 39 mins
Connecting cats and the creator economy!
This time Claire Waite Brown chats with Amanda B, AKA Captain Kitty, the creator and host of the brilliantly inventive and award-winning 6 Degrees of Cats, the podcast that explores deep, cat-themed questions such as 'Are cats cuter than babies?' and 'Did Sir Isaac Newton really create the cat door?'.
Amanda shares the frustration of the industry devaluing 'human, handcrafted work', but offers a powerful, optimistic theory that the rise of AI-generated content is pushing the industry toward a new economy requiring 'proof of humanity': advertisers will ultimately demand host-read ads and genuine human interaction because 'nobody wants to pay for a bunch of robots listening to their stuff'.
We also contemplate a fun new way to use the Podcasting 2.0 Person tag and give Binky, Snuggles and Peanut the credit they deserve!
In this episode you'll discover how TrueFans is driving interactivity by teaching people 'that there are different ways to help listeners become fans'. Sam reveals how creators can use a marketing budget to incentivize listener engagement with small sats payments that show podcasters value the listener's time and attention.
Plus, learn about new TrueFans discovery features, including a dedicated Awards page that turns winners and nominees into dynamic playlists.
We also cover critical industry news, including a warning about rising production costs from hosting platforms, and the positive prediction that podcast advertising is expected to top $3 billion in 2025!
Listen to 6 Degrees of Cats here
Find TrueFans here
Music: How It Is from Ketsa Music
Feedback: TrueFans Support
Read: Creators Blog
Recommendations: Creators Podroll
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amanda B (00:06):
There's something very intrinsically rewarding and
unquantifiable about creatingsomething and sharing it and
connecting to humans throughthat.
A lot of these advertisers arelike, oh shoot, we're getting
ripped off.
So what I think is gonnahappen, hopefully soon, is that
a different monetization economyis gonna have to arise because
(00:28):
nobody wants to pay for a bunchof robots listening to their
stuff.
That's not a consumer who'sgonna buy a product because
that's the ultimate ROI, right?
Sam Sethi (00:37):
Teach people that there are different ways to help
listeners become fans.
And one way maybe to get peopleinto the habit of leaving
comments, and maybe just thatlittle incentive to get the ball
rolling is a good way of doingit.
A little tense stats isn'tgonna break the bank, but it
might actually make someone feelthat, oh, okay, it's worth my
(00:58):
time to leave you a comment aswell, because you value my time
and attention.
Claire Waite Brown (01:02):
Welcome to Creators from TrueFans.
I'm independent podcasterClaire Waite Brown.
Sam Sethi (01:09):
And I'm Sam Tech, the CEO of TrueFans.
Claire Waite Brown (01:11):
Each episode we'll chat with an independent
creator, whether a podcaster ormusician, about their creative
experiences.
Sam Sethi (01:20):
And we'll answer questions from independent
creators about the TrueFansfeatures that can help them with
discovery, interactivity, andmonetisation.
Claire Waite Brown (01:29):
We'll get interactive and see what our
listeners have been saying inthe comments and super comments.
Sam Sethi (01:35):
And discuss what's happening in the wider world
that could be of benefit toindependent creators.
Hi Claire.
Claire Waite Brown (01:42):
Hi Sam, how are you?
Sam Sethi (01:43):
I'm good.
Now, Claire, which independentpodcast are we featuring this
time?
Claire Waite Brown (01:49):
This time I'm chatting with Captain Kitty.
Sam Sethi (01:52):
Yes, you are.
Claire Waite Brown (01:54):
About the brilliantly inventive 6 Degrees
of Cats.
I am here today with Amanda B.
aka Captain Kitty.
Hi Amanda, how are you?
Amanda B (02:08):
Hello, I'm so good right now.
Dialing in from North Brooklyn,the United States of
Bonkerstown.
How are you over there acrossthe pond?
Claire Waite Brown (02:19):
Very good, very good.
Thank you.
So I've given a bit of a hinthere with your aka name.
What's the name of your showand what is it about?
Amanda B (02:30):
Thank you so much for this platform.
I am the host and creator of6 Degrees of Cats using the
number six, although I thinkGoogle will yield both if you
spell it out or write it out.
We're uh the world's number oneand only cat-themed culture,
history, science, and now naturepodcast.
We just got an Ear Worthy IndieAward for Best Nature Podcast,
(02:51):
which is a lovely surprise.
And basically, in every 30 to45 minute episode, we have kind
of a really interestingintradisciplinary roster of
bonafide experts helping meexplore questions like are cats
cuter than babies?
Or why are cats and jazzconnected?
(03:12):
What's the history behind that?
Or did Sir Isaac Newton reallycreate the cat door?
This is a show for cats and catcurious people who just love
trivia with a lot ofevidence-informed, compassionate
perspectives.
Claire Waite Brown (03:26):
Brilliant.
It's such a fabulous idea and areally fun show, but really
well researched as well, whichI'm gonna talk to you about
later.
Why did you start this show?
Amanda B (03:36):
You know, it's almost like answering why am I the way
I am.
It started out as a passionproject in my brain, and it was
kind of brought to life at theprompt of a really amazing
program that's been, I think,since folded into other programs
at Spotify USA.
So they in 20, I want to say718, they put out a call for
(04:00):
more women of color podcasters,and I was among the 10 first
selectees of 18,000 applicationsthey received.
I was so shocked to beselected.
It was an amazing experience onthe premise of my pitch, which
is 6 Degrees of Cats.
And interestingly, it's veryfaithful to the initial pitch.
I didn't really shift it thatmuch from what I had initially
(04:21):
proposed.
I'm super proud of where we'vecome from and where we are, but
that's where it all came from.
I'm a lifelong cat lover.
I have a history career-wiseand social impact.
Mental health is a really bigtheme, as well as uh I just love
bringing joy and art to theworld.
I'm also a musician.
So these all kind of coalescedinto six degrees of cats.
Claire Waite Brown (04:44):
Yeah, brilliant.
You've already given us some ofthe titles, some of the like
topics of the show.
How do you come up with theseideas for each topic for each
episode?
Amanda B (04:56):
Again, you get to know me really well, even though I
mean it's it's a slice of me,but it really isn't all about
me.
It's about what I'm curiousabout.
It's really indicative of thecreative process.
You know what I mean?
Like for you, Claire, do youoften like, this is a great
idea?
It just comes out of the blue.
Claire Waite Brown (05:12):
Absolutely.
Amanda B (05:14):
I mean, that's the human way.
That's the beautiful part ofhow the mind works.
So I basically, something, I'llbe watching a TV show, I'll be
talking to a friend, I'll bereading something random, I'll
be on a commute.
And all of a sudden, Eureka,there's something interesting, a
weird factoid about cats, oreven something I've noticed, I'm
like, huh.
One plus one equals two here inAmanda Land.
(05:34):
And that's usually the spark ofan idea.
I have a huge list of potentialtopics that may or may not be
brought into an episode or betheir own episode.
And so that is pretty muchwhere they all come from.
It is an endless well of ideas.
Claire Waite Brown (05:53):
Now, how does this fit in with the rest
of your life?
What is the rest of your life?
And how does this fit in withlike the research and the people
that you bring on board andstuff?
How do you make all of that fitin?
Amanda B (06:09):
That is the $300 question currently with
monetization, just joking, kindof not.
If you know, you know,podcasters here.
I that's a really importantquestion with the timing.
So I got into that acceleratorin 2018, but it really took me,
I think our first episodedropped in 2022.
It took me that long to reallylet the idea percolate.
(06:32):
One of the biggest things on mymind, honestly, was to what
degree, pun intended, do I needto put my who I am into the
show?
Where's the market for this,right?
Like what will be mostinteresting to people who will
never meet me in person, maybedon't have a particular interest
in my lived experiences.
And um, it took a while forthat.
(06:54):
But the other thing was, as wecoming back to your original
question, how do I find the timeto do this?
There's a rule of thumb thatisn't actually accurate for
narrative podcasts, it's morefor like discussion podcasts.
But every minute of tape thatyou hear is an hour of work for
the creative.
Now, for me, it's probably it'smuch more than that because I'm
(07:14):
the sound designer, I'm theresearcher, I'm doing all the
outreach, I'm doing all themarketing.
So basically, it was impossibleto do this with a full-time
job.
So this is almost like acreator story.
I'll try to keep it short andsharp here.
But basically in 2022, for athree-month period, I built a
runway.
I had a full-time job, and Ialso picked up a nice part-time
(07:35):
gig.
So I was doing those both atthe same time.
And that built me a runway ofabout a year that I could, after
three months, resign from thefull-time job, continue working
part-time, and then do this art.
And I want to shout out theAffordable Care Act because one
of the biggest barriers for meon launching myself as a
creative was the worry of healthinsurance.
(07:56):
Because in the United States,employer sponsor health
insurance is the only way youcan get health care, really,
unless you are at extremely lowincome and then you're qualified
for some very difficult toaccess programs.
So those two things allowed meto have the extra time.
And so now I am a freelancer.
I have a couple clients hereand there.
(08:18):
I'm funder employed, as wemight say, temporarily, because
this economy affects all of us.
But I balance that with myband.
I'm a rock and roll musician,so promoting that as well is uh
time consuming, but very fun.
And of course, you have to goout and play the shows and
socialize and stuff like that.
And so, really, when I do, youknow, pick up new clients, I'm
(08:38):
kind of assessing how much timedo I actually have.
And weirdly, when I worked intech, I learned about the
concept of kind of reallycalculating how much time you
have.
And there's kind of like thistime debt that you accrue with
each project you pick up on.
So I was like, I really have tobe realistic about my time
budget.
TLDR, bunch of bits and bobshere and there, make it work,
(09:01):
but also have to be a little bitmore strategic about it so that
everybody who I'm working withdoesn't have 2% of Amanda's
quality work.
Do you know what I mean?
Claire Waite Brown (09:11):
Yeah, completely understand.
Now, as you've mentioned,working freelance, let's go to
money for the actual podcast.
So, does the podcast itselfbring in any funds for you?
Amanda B (09:22):
A teeny tiny itty bitty amount.
We crossed that threshold ofdownloads where people are now
starting to hear those fun,dynamic audio inserts, you know,
that you hear on radio.
I'm grateful that they're notlike, hello, blah, blah, blah.
And then there's my podcastvolume.
Those drive me bonkers.
Yeah.
They gotta fix that.
We're doing okay because Ialways produce it to be like,
(09:44):
you know, the certain luffs.
Sorry, you can cut that.
That was way too technical.
But anyway, um, yeah, and thenI have a substack.
So I have a couple supportersthere.
None of the subsidizes this isstill bootstrapped, as they like
to say.
But we're working on it.
I had my first sponsor, uh, thewonderful Frank Rassiope,
actually bought an ad slot.
(10:05):
That's right, for his books,didn't he?
Yeah.
Yeah, it was a very successfulone.
And that was really helpful.
So, my advice to any creatorwho's kind of got a niche
podcast with under a thousanddownloads per month, you don't
need to have a thousand.
I mean, if you have a good casestudy that you can pitch to
advertisers that shows a pastsuccess, like that's been really
(10:26):
great.
So I'm so grateful to Frank forthat.
But TLDR, again, not quite, butI do have some wonderful
supporters.
I love them all very much.
Thanks for the love.
Claire Waite Brown (10:37):
Yeah.
What kind of things aboutpodcasting or maybe the
podcasting industry?
What are the things thatfrustrate you?
And what are the things thatreally excite you about it?
Amanda B (10:49):
I don't think I'll be sharing anything new about the
frustration points.
I think they speak to thebroader, I suppose, global trend
of devaluing human heart andhandcrafted work.
We're in a really weird era.
I used to work at the WorldEconomic Forum and they called
it the fourth industrialrevolution.
So I guess when you look at theglobal history, a lot of the
(11:11):
zeitgeist is shifted by thenature of how we work and what's
what's monetized.
It sucks, but we're in acapitalist world right now.
And so anything that tricklesdown from decisions of
executives who have never donethe work before and don't really
understand or even consume whatthey're selling, it trickles
down to a pain point for anindie creator.
(11:31):
For example, we're putting oursinto something that's valuable,
it's consumed, it has it has asocial impact, right?
Like there's that cliche thatduring the pandemic, who helped
us get through it?
It was the art, it was the TV,it was podcasts, it was music.
And yet those creators were theleast funded, unless they were
like in the top 0.02%.
(11:52):
And it's a shame because we aresomehow collectively in this
weird hallucination where we'reagreeing that people like Daniel
Eck can't shave a giant chunkoff of the tiny slice of this
economy that is even granted tothe people actually making the
art, that that's okay.
So anything that has to do withthat is is very frustrating for
(12:12):
me.
I also think it's annoying tohear people speculate about an
industry without reallybalancing it out with a creator
lens.
Ad tech has taken over everysingle creator discussion in the
freaking world.
This is a Google thing becausethey have dictated the attention
economy based on SEO, right?
And then you have podcast SEOand you have social media SEOs.
(12:33):
So anything that has to dowith, like, again, the decisions
made by people who are so farremoved from the art, calling
the shots, that's whatfrustrates me.
Now, what I love and whatbrings me joy is the humanity of
it all.
I can't think of a more kind,generative, beautiful, creative,
wacky, completely bonkerscommunity than audio creators.
(12:55):
I love every single person,including you and Sam, like and
and Frank and everybody whowe're naming here.
Wonderful, wonderful humans.
There's something veryintrinsically rewarding and
unquantifiable about creatingsomething and sharing it and
connecting to humans throughthat.
Six degrees of cats, our logline at the end is everything is
(13:16):
connected.
Human connection is my passion.
I think that's through line formy career.
It's what I'm all about.
It's an intrinsicallypleasurable thing to connect
from one human to another, be itthrough audio, be it in a
conversation like this.
So that's what I absolutelylove about podcasting.
Something very special aboutpodcasting.
I don't know what it is.
Claire Waite Brown (13:38):
I've been thinking about it this week when
we're recording.
Um, there's been a lot ofAI-generated podcasts, this
company churning out thousandsand thousands of podcasts, all
completely AI-generated, costinga pound per episode or
something ridiculous.
Right.
And I while I was thinkingabout this, the thing I love
about podcasting and podcasts isthat anybody can create their
(14:02):
thing and put it out in theworld and anybody can hear it.
And what I like to hear is theordinary people out there and
their opinions and their viewsand their creative ideas.
And that's what you're notgetting from someone who decides
that you should have AI talkingabout knitting.
I want to hear the real person.
Why do they like knitting?
(14:23):
What do they feel about this?
So I'm with you.
It's the connection.
Amanda B (14:27):
Yes.
Yeah.
Isn't it interesting how likethe human connection has been so
transformed thanks to likesocial media?
And I think that's a beautifulthing.
What you named, theaccessibility is the gift.
Not everything is bad.
I'm not anti-AI.
I mean, it's here.
It's being poorly used, andthere's no wisdom in the
leadership of those creating itor bussing it, trafficking it.
(14:50):
One thing really quickly,Claire, I know this might not be
the intent of this discussion,but I found it so interesting
because that was a COO of was itWondery?
Yes.
Who started it?
So she said something thatreally sparked a lot of
curiosity and strong reaction.
She said half of the peoplewill be AI.
I, you know what I really thinkshe meant, or that that what
(15:10):
this means practically is that,okay, first off in podcasting,
we have a real issue trackingwho your listener is, right?
You can't tell who's listening,right?
And we all know that there havebeen people gaming like these
systems on monetization.
My theory is that these AI, youknow, this drivel that's being
pushed by some of these people,they're trying to game a market
(15:33):
they created with fakelisteners, fake bots.
There are probably AIlisteners, if you think about
it, that are down.
I mean, it's actually adocumented issue, right?
Because like a lot of theseadvertisers are like, oh shoot,
we're getting ripped off.
So what I think is gonnahappen, hopefully soon, is that
a different monetization economyis gonna have to arise because
(15:53):
nobody wants to pay for a bunchof robots listening to their
stuff.
That's not a consumer who'sgonna buy a product because
that's the ultimate ROI, right?
So I think that this is goodnews for us, or at least they
might be optimistic, in thatthey're gonna need proof of
humanity.
And that's gonna come back tohost red ads, that's gonna come
back to human interaction,that's gonna come back to some
sort of proof of concept thatyour podcast is reaching human
(16:17):
ears and living people who aregoing to make a decision, who
are gonna build a relationshipwith the host.
So anyway, nerd talk aside, Idon't know if that makes you
feel better, Claire.
I feel a little better justsaying it does it's a very
positive spin on it.
Claire Waite Brown (16:30):
I love it.
It's even more meta thanpodcasts about podcasting, um,
that the AIs are making contentfor AIs to listen to.
Amanda B (16:39):
Good for them.
AI, unl until AIs have theright to earn income, which
they're not going to.
I mean, I know there'slegislation to give them IP and
personhood.
I mean, that that's at the endof the day, they're gonna be
using up a lot of theirresources for AI and it's not
gonna go anywhere.
Claire Waite Brown (16:55):
Yeah, no, brilliant.
Okay, moving on.
Podcasting 2.0, which is a lotof what we're all about here at
TrueFans.
What do you know about that?
Amanda B (17:06):
All of these um norms seem to be driving towards
standardizing how we arequantifying things so that it
can translate into monetization,which is how we're defining
growth and audience reach.
I appreciate thestandardization.
I like the accountability forum different distributors to
fall in line with IAB, forexample.
(17:27):
That's very helpful both forthe advertiser and for the
creator side.
Nobody wants to be ripped off.
Other than that, I'm I'm astudent of yours, Claire.
Tell me, tell me your thoughts.
And I mean, I know you you andSam talk about it quite a bit,
but in a nutshell, like what areyou finding positive about it?
What do you think is the wayforward?
Claire Waite Brown (17:45):
Well, it's interesting that you feel the
focus is on the monetizationbecause I think a lot of people
do feel that.
And initially they will think,oh, it's all about Bitcoin.
But it is a lot of the featuresof podcasting 2.0 are good for
creators and listeners fordiscovery and for interactivity.
So, for example, on the 2.0apps, your listeners can leave
(18:09):
comments for your episodeswithin the app so they don't
have to go somewhere else.
Amanda B (18:14):
Ah yeah.
Claire Waite Brown (18:16):
And discovery point of view, maybe
like obviously you've got yourtranscripts, that's an extra bit
of SEO.
And I do understand what you'resaying, because this frustrates
me.
When I started making my showPodcasting 2.0 in practice, I
started learning more about thedifferent things that the
hosting companies do and don'tsupport.
And that is frustrating.
So you're talking aboutstandardization, which is what,
(18:37):
from a 2.0 point of view, thepodcast standards project wants
to get to.
But right now, Buzz Sprout willsupport the person tag.
Captivate doesn't support thattag.
Right, right.
That can be confusing.
But you can do these thingsdirectly in TrueFans, they'll
only be seen in TrueFans.
Because what I want, there'stwo things I like for you.
(18:59):
The first one is I would lovefor you to use the person
feature.
So if you look at creators fromTrueFans on TrueFans, you'll
see a picture of me, a pictureof Sam, and a picture of our
guest, which will be you forthis episode.
Now, what I think you could do,what I'd love to see, is for
your show a picture of you andthen your three co-executive
(19:23):
producers.
Amanda B (19:24):
I want to see genius.
I love everything about this.
Clara, you're awesome.
This is great.
Claire Waite Brown (19:31):
So that can be done, and once you claim your
show in True Fans, you canactually do that directly in
TrueFans.
I can tell you more about thatin the future if it's relevant.
Um, the other thing I like theidea of for your show is
chapters.
Yes.
Because of the way you talkabout the different topics.
So, for example, I would havesaid to my son, listen to the
ninja bit, because I found thatreally interesting.
(19:54):
He wouldn't necessarily listento the whole podcast.
But for me to say to him, justgo to the chapter on the ninjas,
then you know, he's listened toa bit, he might then love it
and listen to the rest of it.
The other thing I think youcould do with those chapters is
you can put links in.
All the lovely stuff you put inyour show notes with, you know,
your experts and your citationsand your resources, you can
(20:16):
actually put those in thechapters so a listener can
actually click on the link whilethey're listening and be taken
somewhere.
Those are just two of the onesthat I thought would be really
good for your particular show.
Amanda B (20:28):
Absolutely.
Wonderful suggestions, Claire.
That's why you're the pro.
Really quick.
So I I I feel so ignorantbecause I used to work at the
podcast academy.
So podcasting 2.0, those arethose are tech protocols, right?
Like they're they're okay, yes.
So I'm not as I'm not adeveloper, and that's why my my
surface level understanding isjust how does it hit me as a
(20:49):
creator?
Claire Waite Brown (20:50):
That's why I'm here, you see.
So my podcast, Podcasting 2.0in practice, talks about each
feature just one at a time, andtells the podcaster or the
listener why they're good, whythey're good for you.
And then I actually have ahomework episode which tells you
how to do the thing, how tofind it, how to set it up.
(21:11):
Because I don't know the tech.
I don't need to know how thetech works, but what I do know
is why it's a good thing andjust how to set it up.
Yes.
There are a number of featuresand they're designed to improve
our experience, whether as alistener or as a podcaster.
Amanda B (21:28):
Yeah.
Oh, that's brilliant.
Oh, thank you for clarifyingthat, pun intended, Clara.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Claire Waite Brown (21:35):
Comes with the territory.
Now, don't get too excited, butI've sent you some money for
your TrueFans wallet.
So I've given you a review,which I attached 100 sats to.
I've been streaming whilelistening, five sats per minute.
It really is a very smallamount of money.
I really mean don't get tooexcited about it.
About 12 pence or something,but just to show how listeners
(22:01):
can support you.
So one thing they can do is seta streaming rate and they send
you sats from their wallet perminute that they listen.
Oh.
And that's what I've been doingfor your show.
So that's another thing you'llsee when you'll claim your show,
you have a tiny little bit ofmoney in your wallet.
Amanda B (22:16):
Oh my gosh, this is amazing.
Well, I appreciate you all somuch.
See creators, people who areactually on the ground, should
be leading these things.
So thank you so much, Claire.
Awesome.
I'm excited.
Yay!
Claire Waite Brown (22:27):
Well, thank you very much for chatting with
me today.
It's been lovely to meet you.
Tell everybody how everybodycan connect with you and
6 Degrees of Cats.
Amanda B (22:38):
Amazing.
Well, 6 Degrees of Cats,thankfully, is the only one of
that title.
So you can type it into yoursearch engine, six degrees of
cats.
Sixdegreesofcats.com will takeyou there or linktr.ee slash six
degrees of cats.
We are at six, the number, sixdegrees of cats, on all major
social media platforms,excluding X.
(23:00):
Well, we're actually on there,but I'm never on there.
Why would I be there?
And I welcome any and all greatquestions about cat stuff.
I may not be able to answerthem, but I love hearing from
people.
And thank you so much, Claire.
Claire Waite Brown (23:16):
I somehow managed to lose the last little
bit at the end of thatrecording.
Sam Sethi (23:20):
We've all done that.
Claire Waite Brown (23:22):
I have no idea how.
But anyway, thank you, Amanda,for a fab chat, which you can
hear a little bit more of at theend of this episode of
Creators, including why Amandais not the person to go to with
your cat's health concerns,although she is always happy to
send you to her expert guests ifshe thinks they could be more
(23:43):
helpful.
Sam Sethi (23:44):
Why are you so keen on seeing Amanda's coexecutive
producers using the person tag,Claire?
Claire Waite Brown (23:51):
Well, you can actually see for yourself
now, because Amanda said I couldadd those for her.
So go to 6 Degrees of Cats andyou will be able to see, thanks
to the wonderful 2.0 person tag,Amanda herself and her
co-producers Binky, Snuggles,and Peanut.
Sam Sethi (24:11):
And that is on TrueFans only.
Claire Waite Brown (24:13):
That is on TrueFans Only, this is true.
Well remembered, Sam, yeah.
Sam Sethi (24:17):
Because you did ask for that feature and we went,
okay, we'll do that for you,Claire.
We always do it for you.
But yes, you can see theco-producers of the 6 Degrees of
Cats on TrueFans.
But on a more uh serious note,what we've done is we've allowed
you to put using the persontag, the hosts, you can also
choose to have uh executiveproducers or other people with
(24:41):
different roles on your podcastpage if you want as well.
Claire Waite Brown (24:45):
Yeah, there are loads of roles to choose
from, as I discovered when I wasputting Binky Snuggles and
Peanuts on the page.
Sam Sethi (24:53):
There is a link to 6 Degrees of Cats in the show
notes as well, and new episodesare highlighted on the homepage
at TrueFans, so the podcast iseasy to find there.
Claire Waite Brown (25:02):
And if you'd like to explore anything that
Amanda and I talked about inthat interview, please leave us
a comment or super comment,which is easy to do in TrueFans
by clicking on the speech bubbleicon or the tab called comments
under the icons, and we canstrike up a conversation.
Sam Sethi (25:21):
And while you're there, if you're an independent
podcast creator, why not putyourself forward to be a future
guest like 6 Degrees of Cat onthis show?
Claire Waite Brown (25:30):
If you'd like to chat with us about your
independent podcast or yourmusic, send a comment or super
comment in TrueFans to anycreators episode by clicking on
the speech bubble icon or on thecomment tab.
Sam Sethi (25:45):
Question time.
What do you want to ask me thistime?
Claire Waite Brown (25:48):
Yes, we've chatted in the past on this show
about highlighting awardsfinalists and winners, and now
we have the finalized umarrangement of that, don't we,
Sam?
How do people find new showsbased on their awards
nominations or wins?
Sam Sethi (26:07):
So it was your idea, so let me give you full credit
for it.
And it's a great way of addingmore discovery to TrueFans.
So we created a dedicatedawards page, truefans.fm slash
awards, or you can find it fromthe Discovery drop-down menu.
And uh what it gives us the 13or 14 different current awards
(26:28):
that we have populated.
Some of them we haven't yetbecause they were in early 2025,
and so we'll wait for the nextuh round of awards.
But for example, the BritishPodcast Awards that were
recently done or the IndependentPodcast Awards, you can click
through on those and you'll seeall the award uh entrants at
different stages cloud.
(26:48):
If it's nominees, we'll showall the nominees, then when it
gets to finalists, we'll reducethe nominees down, and then when
it gets to the final winners,we'll leave it as a grouping.
But what we've done is we'veturned the uh page into a
playlist so you can actuallyplay all the podcasts as one
playlist.
You can copy that into your ownplaylist and edit it down, and
(27:11):
we will always use what we calla dynamic playlist, which means
we will always show the latestepisode of that podcast.
So, yeah, a lovely way todiscover new podcasts.
Claire Waite Brown (27:23):
I've certainly found a few new shows
to add to my queue, having beenputting them all in for the um
independent podcast awards.
So I've discovered some reallyinteresting and inventive and
just wonderfully creative stuffout there.
Sam Sethi (27:37):
Now, fanbox.
Have we heard from any of ourlisteners, Claire?
Claire Waite Brown (27:41):
We have.
So we received a comment fromNeil Russell Brooker.
He clicked on that, well, Idon't know if he clicked on the
icon or the comment tab, but youget the idea.
And he said, Hi all.
Landed here after seeing FrankRassiopi's review on Earworthy.
Yes, Frank did a lovely reviewof creators on his um Earworthy
(28:01):
blog.
Back to Neil, he says, This wasevery bit as interesting and
helpful as I hoped.
Following the invite at the endof the first segment of the
interview with Frank, I'd liketo pitch my audio drama podcast,
I is for investigate.
I'm co-creator, producer, andperformer, and I'd really love
the opportunity to publicize ithere.
(28:22):
I love, personally, this isback to Claire now, the
different genres of podcast, andaudio drama is one I've been
looking to cover.
So that was really good to hearfrom Neil.
Excellent.
Sam Sethi (28:34):
Well done, Neil.
Uh I also see we have thiscomment from uh somebody called
Fanzone Claire.
Do you know her?
Claire Waite Brown (28:41):
I do know her.
That is, in fact, me.
And a profile I created to makechapter art for this show and
for Fanzone.
In doing that and testing outwhat you promise us, Sam.
Sam Sethi (28:55):
Last time you announced that we Don't don't
self-promise things, careful.
Claire Waite Brown (28:59):
But you did, and you came through because we
both wanted to encouragelisteners to leave comments.
And you thought that a good wayto do this would be by adding a
little financial reward.
So I tested that out andfanzone Claire, she earned 10
sats.
If you go to episode 12 ofCreators from True Fans and the
(29:22):
chapter called Earn byCommenting on This Podcast, you
will hear us talking about this,but you can also see how this
works from the chapter art thatI created.
Sam Sethi (29:32):
I think one thing I wanted to get across here for
independent podcast creators isin TrueFans, once you've claimed
your podcast, you can go to themonetization tab.
And in there you'll seesomething called marketing
budget.
And it allows you to put anamount of money into that field.
Then you can either pay peopleto listen to your trailer, so
(29:53):
that will incentivize people tosay, okay, I can enter money by
listening to your trailer.
And on the back of that.
They might become a fan.
On the back of that, they alsomight tell their friends.
But you can also do that forcomments, which is what we're
doing.
So in the comments, we makesure that you can incentivize
black people to leave comments.
And I think it's important inthe early days of what
(30:15):
podcasting 2.0 is doing istrying to teach people that
there are different ways to helpuh listeners become fans.
And one way maybe to get peopleinto the habit of leaving
comments, and maybe just thatlittle incentive to get the ball
rolling is a good way of doingit.
A little ten sat isn't going tobreak the bank, but it might
(30:36):
actually make someone feel that,oh, okay, it's worth my time to
leave you a comment as well,because you value my time and
attention.
Claire Waite Brown (30:44):
Okay.
Moving on, what have youspotted happening in the world
that may be of interest andrelevance to independent
podcasters?
Sam Sethi (30:53):
One of the things that sadly happened a few weeks
back was a friend of ours, ToddCochrane, passed away.
He was the CEO of Blueberry.
One of the things that Todd hadfamously said and done was not
increase the price of Blubrryhosting for 20 years.
But I think economic hardshipis forcing not just Blubrry who
(31:14):
will be increasing their pricesin October in the next couple of
weeks, but also Buzzsprout.
But also BuzzSprout quietlyincreased their price from $12 a
month to $19 a month.
I think we'll see Captivate didthe same and many of the
others.
So I think you're justbeginning to see a little bit of
price increases across theboard for podcast hosts.
(31:36):
Just something for people to beaware of.
Because I think there are newentrants coming into the market,
but there are also lots andlots of you know micro price
increases.
We've seen it with things likeediting tools like D escript,
we've seen it with Canva, we'veseen it with now hosting.
So just as a person creatingpodcasts, you've just got to be
(31:57):
aware that the cost ofproduction is going up.
Now, a little teaser here.
We have mentioned it in passingbefore.
TrueFans will be becoming ahosting platform as well.
We will be doing it in a verydifferent way to the current way
that hosting is done.
There will be a pricing pageand a wait list coming up in the
(32:17):
next couple of weeks as well.
So we'll tell you in the nextshow all about it.
But yes, we will be a TrueFanshosting platform as well as a
TrueFans app.
Claire Waite Brown (32:27):
Brilliant.
Very exciting.
Sam Sethi (32:29):
Now one of the other things that I saw this week that
might be interesting to peopleis the IAB.
What are you like today?
I have no idea what's going onwith my brain.
Jeez Louise, someone someonegive me back my dentures.
Something else I saw this week,it was the IAB has suggested
(32:51):
that podcast advertising willtop $3 billion in 2025.
We hadn't quite crossed the $2billion mark last year.
So it's exciting to see.
I I only mention this, Claire,in that I get a general feel
that the industry is going backinto a more flourishing period.
We are seeing hosts reportingthat they're having an increase
(33:13):
in the number of peoplepodcasting.
We're seeing obviously at thetop of the tree more people
coming off TV and radio intopodcasting.
And I think more people are nowdiscovering and using podcasts
rather than mainstream TV orradio as the means to entertain
themselves.
And on the back of that, Iguess advertisers are going,
hmm, that's where the audienceis.
(33:33):
So we'll see more money cominginto podcasting and hopefully
money trickling down to peopleas well who are on the lower
than 1%.
You know, they're not the JoeRogan.
But it'd be nice if someadvertising also becomes
intelligent and starts to lookat the niches of podcasting on
the long tail rather than alwaysfocusing on the top 1%.
Claire Waite Brown (33:55):
When you're in a smaller show, you may well
take some time to approachsmaller companies yourself that
fit in with that niche.
I've had a couple recentlywhich has been really nice, and
I like to, for creativity fans,say that look, I offer this
affordable advertising that goesto a very specific audience,
(34:15):
and I'm able to choose sponsorsbased on how relevant they are
to my show, which is brilliant.
Now, that doesn't mean I getthem every single month, but
there's another aspect tosponsorship or advertising than
BetterHelp and all that thateverybody used to talk about.
Sam Sethi (34:32):
Claire, are we meeting in London next week by
any chance?
Claire Waite Brown (34:35):
Well, we are, we are, yes.
You are giving an award at theIndependent Podcast Awards.
I will be there becausePodcasting 2.0 in Practice is a
finalist in the category calledScience and Technology, which I
have a little smile in thebackground because as someone
who started podcasting withCreativity Found, which is a
(34:58):
very arty farty, hippy-dippy,self-help, well-being type show,
I find it very amusing that I'mnow in the science and
technology category.
But that, yeah, that's really,really, really exciting.
So that event is happening onOctober the 15th, the actual
awards themselves.
So I, as usual, am lookingforward to hanging out with lots
(35:21):
of other podcasty people andespecially independent podcasty
people.
Sam Sethi (35:25):
Wouldn't it be funny if I give you the award?
Claire Waite Brown (35:28):
No.
I already thought that.
I was like, no, we better notbe doing my one.
Sam Sethi (35:32):
That would be that would be the irony of funniness
ever.
Claire Waite Brown (35:36):
I've actually listened, I've listened
to the other podcasts in mycategory, and they're very good.
Not that mine isn't, butthey're very good.
Sam Sethi (35:47):
Uh and the last thing, uh, if anyone's
interested who didn't make itover to podcast movement in
Dallas recently, all of theaudio and video from all of the
seminars is online now.
They're free and available toeveryone.
Claire Waite Brown (36:01):
I did have a listen to the one by Daniel J.
Lewis about podcasting 2.0.
So that was a really good talkfrom him in a very positive and
human way about what podcasting2.0 features can do for you and
how they're doing good things.
Sam Sethi (36:20):
And also there was a good one from Adam Curry, the
inventor of podcasting, withRocky Thomas from Soundstack as
well.
Well worth listening to aswell.
Of course.
And that's it for this week,Claire.
Uh audio is recorded onRiverside, edited by yourself,
Claire, and we're hosted by ourfriends Buzzsprout.
Claire Waite Brown (36:37):
You can support this show by streaming
SATS from your true fans walletor leave us a super comment, or
better still, become a monthlysupporter of this show.
Sam Sethi (36:48):
And if you'd like to promote your podcast in the feed
for this show, click on youravatar and go down to the
creators dashboard, then clickon the pencil icon next to the
podcast.
Finally go to promotions, andthen in the podcast promotion,
search for creators fromTrueFans, and you can send us a
request to have your showpromoted in our feed.
Claire Waite Brown (37:11):
You can find out more about how to use the
features of the TrueFansplatform by listening to our
sister podcast fanzone.
And if you're keen to learnmore about podcasting 2.0 in
general, do check out mycourse-based podcast called
Podcasting 2.0 in practice.
Don't forget, you can keeplistening to hear more from this
(37:32):
episode's featured creator.
Amanda B (37:35):
So this is a really productive way for me to put
those 3 a.m.
genius ideas into somethingthat people can actually see or
hear.
Claire Waite Brown (37:45):
Yeah, that's where a lot of my ideas come
from when I'm waking up in themorning.
Like, I've got to write thisdown and then let it um
percolate.
Yeah.
Amanda B (37:54):
Yeah.
When are you the most creative?
Are you do you find yourselflike more creative in the
morning or afternoon or evening?
Claire Waite Brown (38:00):
I think it must be because I'm rested that
the ideas come to the forefrontin the head, which is why I
think of them when I'm wakingup.
And the other time is when I'min the shower.
I think when I'm in the shower,it comes more of a like, oh,
this is how to do that thing Ithought of.
And that's how it kind ofprogresses.
(38:20):
I love that.
What about interactivity?
Do you have comments?
I I would imagine yourlisteners might even give you
suggestions for topics.
Does that happen?
Amanda B (38:31):
They do.
Yes.
I love that.
Now it's not like I get a floodof this.
I'm I'm gonna just validateeverybody's thoughts and that
ain't not enough time in a dayto do all this social media
interaction.
Overall, we podcasters in termsof growth when it comes to
monetization are asked to createcommunity, right?
And community is created whenthere's interactions.
(38:52):
And so I'm still trying to beproducing the thing a lot of the
time that I have right now.
Yeah.
But in the off season, buildingcommunity is what we we can do
and should do.
So yes, comments, suggestions,stuff like that.
A lot of people, I actually hadsomebody asking me for cat
advice.
There's so many wonderful,wonderful cat-themed podcasts
(39:12):
speaking specifically aboutfeelest catus, the animal
itself.
We're not quite that.
In fact, we're not that.
We're like the radio lab forcats, as my dear friend at the
Cat Museum of New York Citycalled us.
You know, we're a narrated,semantic podcast.
Cats are the cats are themascot and the theme, but they
are not the central topic.
Claire Waite Brown (39:31):
Yeah.
Don't come to me withveterinarian questions.
I do my best.
Amanda B (39:35):
Yeah.
I'll shout out my experts.
I'd love them to grow theirbusiness through my podcast, but
I am not.
I I do my best with my three,but I wouldn't say they'd be
like, Yeah, right, she's anexpert on us.
She doesn't even feed us enoughchicken, you know.
There's something very intrinsically rewarding and
unquantifiable about creatingsomething and sharing it and
connecting to humans throughthat.
A lot of these advertisers arelike, oh shoot, we're getting
ripped off.
So what I think is gonnahappen, hopefully soon, is that
a different monetization economyis gonna have to arise because
(00:28):
nobody wants to pay for a bunchof robots listening to their
stuff.
That's not a consumer who'sgonna buy a product because
that's the ultimate ROI, right?
Sam Sethi (00:37):
Teach people that there are different ways to help
listeners become fans.
And one way maybe to get peopleinto the habit of leaving
comments, and maybe just thatlittle incentive to get the ball
rolling is a good way of doingit.
A little tense stats isn'tgonna break the bank, but it
might actually make someone feelthat, oh, okay, it's worth my
(00:58):
time to leave you a comment aswell, because you value my time
and attention.
Claire Waite Brown (01:02):
Welcome to Creators from TrueFans.
I'm independent podcasterClaire Waite Brown.
Sam Sethi (01:09):
And I'm Sam Tech, the CEO of TrueFans.
Claire Waite Brown (01:11):
Each episode we'll chat with an independent
creator, whether a podcaster ormusician, about their creative
experiences.
Sam Sethi (01:20):
And we'll answer questions from independent
creators about the TrueFansfeatures that can help them with
discovery, interactivity, andmonetisation.
Claire Waite Brown (01:29):
We'll get interactive and see what our
listeners have been saying inthe comments and super comments.
Sam Sethi (01:35):
And discuss what's happening in the wider world
that could be of benefit toindependent creators.
Hi Claire.
Claire Waite Brown (01:42):
Hi Sam, how are you?
Sam Sethi (01:43):
I'm good.
Now, Claire, which independentpodcast are we featuring this
time?
Claire Waite Brown (01:49):
This time I'm chatting with Captain Kitty.
Sam Sethi (01:52):
Yes, you are.
Claire Waite Brown (01:54):
About the brilliantly inventive 6 Degrees
of Cats.
I am here today with Amanda B.
aka Captain Kitty.
Hi Amanda, how are you?
Amanda B (02:08):
Hello, I'm so good right now.
Dialing in from North Brooklyn,the United States of
Bonkerstown.
How are you over there acrossthe pond?
Claire Waite Brown (02:19):
Very good, very good.
Thank you.
So I've given a bit of a hinthere with your aka name.
What's the name of your showand what is it about?
Amanda B (02:30):
Thank you so much for this platform.
I am the host and creator of6 Degrees of Cats using the
number six, although I thinkGoogle will yield both if you
spell it out or write it out.
We're uh the world's number oneand only cat-themed culture,
history, science, and now naturepodcast.
We just got an Ear Worthy IndieAward for Best Nature Podcast,
(02:51):
which is a lovely surprise.
And basically, in every 30 to45 minute episode, we have kind
of a really interestingintradisciplinary roster of
bonafide experts helping meexplore questions like are cats
cuter than babies?
Or why are cats and jazzconnected?
(03:12):
What's the history behind that?
Or did Sir Isaac Newton reallycreate the cat door?
This is a show for cats and catcurious people who just love
trivia with a lot ofevidence-informed, compassionate
perspectives.
Claire Waite Brown (03:26):
Brilliant.
It's such a fabulous idea and areally fun show, but really
well researched as well, whichI'm gonna talk to you about
later.
Why did you start this show?
Amanda B (03:36):
You know, it's almost like answering why am I the way
I am.
It started out as a passionproject in my brain, and it was
kind of brought to life at theprompt of a really amazing
program that's been, I think,since folded into other programs
at Spotify USA.
So they in 20, I want to say718, they put out a call for
(04:00):
more women of color podcasters,and I was among the 10 first
selectees of 18,000 applicationsthey received.
I was so shocked to beselected.
It was an amazing experience onthe premise of my pitch, which
is 6 Degrees of Cats.
And interestingly, it's veryfaithful to the initial pitch.
I didn't really shift it thatmuch from what I had initially
(04:21):
proposed.
I'm super proud of where we'vecome from and where we are, but
that's where it all came from.
I'm a lifelong cat lover.
I have a history career-wiseand social impact.
Mental health is a really bigtheme, as well as uh I just love
bringing joy and art to theworld.
I'm also a musician.
So these all kind of coalescedinto six degrees of cats.
Claire Waite Brown (04:44):
Yeah, brilliant.
You've already given us some ofthe titles, some of the like
topics of the show.
How do you come up with theseideas for each topic for each
episode?
Amanda B (04:56):
Again, you get to know me really well, even though I
mean it's it's a slice of me,but it really isn't all about
me.
It's about what I'm curiousabout.
It's really indicative of thecreative process.
You know what I mean?
Like for you, Claire, do youoften like, this is a great
idea?
It just comes out of the blue.
Claire Waite Brown (05:12):
Absolutely.
Amanda B (05:14):
I mean, that's the human way.
That's the beautiful part ofhow the mind works.
So I basically, something, I'llbe watching a TV show, I'll be
talking to a friend, I'll bereading something random, I'll
be on a commute.
And all of a sudden, Eureka,there's something interesting, a
weird factoid about cats, oreven something I've noticed, I'm
like, huh.
One plus one equals two here inAmanda Land.
(05:34):
And that's usually the spark ofan idea.
I have a huge list of potentialtopics that may or may not be
brought into an episode or betheir own episode.
And so that is pretty muchwhere they all come from.
It is an endless well of ideas.
Claire Waite Brown (05:53):
Now, how does this fit in with the rest
of your life?
What is the rest of your life?
And how does this fit in withlike the research and the people
that you bring on board andstuff?
How do you make all of that fitin?
Amanda B (06:09):
That is the $300 question currently with
monetization, just joking, kindof not.
If you know, you know,podcasters here.
I that's a really importantquestion with the timing.
So I got into that acceleratorin 2018, but it really took me,
I think our first episodedropped in 2022.
It took me that long to reallylet the idea percolate.
(06:32):
One of the biggest things on mymind, honestly, was to what
degree, pun intended, do I needto put my who I am into the
show?
Where's the market for this,right?
Like what will be mostinteresting to people who will
never meet me in person, maybedon't have a particular interest
in my lived experiences.
And um, it took a while forthat.
(06:54):
But the other thing was, as wecoming back to your original
question, how do I find the timeto do this?
There's a rule of thumb thatisn't actually accurate for
narrative podcasts, it's morefor like discussion podcasts.
But every minute of tape thatyou hear is an hour of work for
the creative.
Now, for me, it's probably it'smuch more than that because I'm
(07:14):
the sound designer, I'm theresearcher, I'm doing all the
outreach, I'm doing all themarketing.
So basically, it was impossibleto do this with a full-time
job.
So this is almost like acreator story.
I'll try to keep it short andsharp here.
But basically in 2022, for athree-month period, I built a
runway.
I had a full-time job, and Ialso picked up a nice part-time
(07:35):
gig.
So I was doing those both atthe same time.
And that built me a runway ofabout a year that I could, after
three months, resign from thefull-time job, continue working
part-time, and then do this art.
And I want to shout out theAffordable Care Act because one
of the biggest barriers for meon launching myself as a
creative was the worry of healthinsurance.
(07:56):
Because in the United States,employer sponsor health
insurance is the only way youcan get health care, really,
unless you are at extremely lowincome and then you're qualified
for some very difficult toaccess programs.
So those two things allowed meto have the extra time.
And so now I am a freelancer.
I have a couple clients hereand there.
(08:18):
I'm funder employed, as wemight say, temporarily, because
this economy affects all of us.
But I balance that with myband.
I'm a rock and roll musician,so promoting that as well is uh
time consuming, but very fun.
And of course, you have to goout and play the shows and
socialize and stuff like that.
And so, really, when I do, youknow, pick up new clients, I'm
(08:38):
kind of assessing how much timedo I actually have.
And weirdly, when I worked intech, I learned about the
concept of kind of reallycalculating how much time you
have.
And there's kind of like thistime debt that you accrue with
each project you pick up on.
So I was like, I really have tobe realistic about my time
budget.
TLDR, bunch of bits and bobshere and there, make it work,
(09:01):
but also have to be a little bitmore strategic about it so that
everybody who I'm working withdoesn't have 2% of Amanda's
quality work.
Do you know what I mean?
Claire Waite Brown (09:11):
Yeah, completely understand.
Now, as you've mentioned,working freelance, let's go to
money for the actual podcast.
So, does the podcast itselfbring in any funds for you?
Amanda B (09:22):
A teeny tiny itty bitty amount.
We crossed that threshold ofdownloads where people are now
starting to hear those fun,dynamic audio inserts, you know,
that you hear on radio.
I'm grateful that they're notlike, hello, blah, blah, blah.
And then there's my podcastvolume.
Those drive me bonkers.
Yeah.
They gotta fix that.
We're doing okay because Ialways produce it to be like,
(09:44):
you know, the certain luffs.
Sorry, you can cut that.
That was way too technical.
But anyway, um, yeah, and thenI have a substack.
So I have a couple supportersthere.
None of the subsidizes this isstill bootstrapped, as they like
to say.
But we're working on it.
I had my first sponsor, uh, thewonderful Frank Rassiope,
actually bought an ad slot.
(10:05):
That's right, for his books,didn't he?
Yeah.
Yeah, it was a very successfulone.
And that was really helpful.
So, my advice to any creatorwho's kind of got a niche
podcast with under a thousanddownloads per month, you don't
need to have a thousand.
I mean, if you have a good casestudy that you can pitch to
advertisers that shows a pastsuccess, like that's been really
(10:26):
great.
So I'm so grateful to Frank forthat.
But TLDR, again, not quite, butI do have some wonderful
supporters.
I love them all very much.
Thanks for the love.
Claire Waite Brown (10:37):
Yeah.
What kind of things aboutpodcasting or maybe the
podcasting industry?
What are the things thatfrustrate you?
And what are the things thatreally excite you about it?
Amanda B (10:49):
I don't think I'll be sharing anything new about the
frustration points.
I think they speak to thebroader, I suppose, global trend
of devaluing human heart andhandcrafted work.
We're in a really weird era.
I used to work at the WorldEconomic Forum and they called
it the fourth industrialrevolution.
So I guess when you look at theglobal history, a lot of the
(11:11):
zeitgeist is shifted by thenature of how we work and what's
what's monetized.
It sucks, but we're in acapitalist world right now.
And so anything that tricklesdown from decisions of
executives who have never donethe work before and don't really
understand or even consume whatthey're selling, it trickles
down to a pain point for anindie creator.
(11:31):
For example, we're putting oursinto something that's valuable,
it's consumed, it has it has asocial impact, right?
Like there's that cliche thatduring the pandemic, who helped
us get through it?
It was the art, it was the TV,it was podcasts, it was music.
And yet those creators were theleast funded, unless they were
like in the top 0.02%.
(11:52):
And it's a shame because we aresomehow collectively in this
weird hallucination where we'reagreeing that people like Daniel
Eck can't shave a giant chunkoff of the tiny slice of this
economy that is even granted tothe people actually making the
art, that that's okay.
So anything that has to do withthat is is very frustrating for
(12:12):
me.
I also think it's annoying tohear people speculate about an
industry without reallybalancing it out with a creator
lens.
Ad tech has taken over everysingle creator discussion in the
freaking world.
This is a Google thing becausethey have dictated the attention
economy based on SEO, right?
And then you have podcast SEOand you have social media SEOs.
(12:33):
So anything that has to dowith, like, again, the decisions
made by people who are so farremoved from the art, calling
the shots, that's whatfrustrates me.
Now, what I love and whatbrings me joy is the humanity of
it all.
I can't think of a more kind,generative, beautiful, creative,
wacky, completely bonkerscommunity than audio creators.
(12:55):
I love every single person,including you and Sam, like and
and Frank and everybody whowe're naming here.
Wonderful, wonderful humans.
There's something veryintrinsically rewarding and
unquantifiable about creatingsomething and sharing it and
connecting to humans throughthat.
Six degrees of cats, our logline at the end is everything is
(13:16):
connected.
Human connection is my passion.
I think that's through line formy career.
It's what I'm all about.
It's an intrinsicallypleasurable thing to connect
from one human to another, be itthrough audio, be it in a
conversation like this.
So that's what I absolutelylove about podcasting.
Something very special aboutpodcasting.
I don't know what it is.
Claire Waite Brown (13:38):
I've been thinking about it this week when
we're recording.
Um, there's been a lot ofAI-generated podcasts, this
company churning out thousandsand thousands of podcasts, all
completely AI-generated, costinga pound per episode or
something ridiculous.
Right.
And I while I was thinkingabout this, the thing I love
about podcasting and podcasts isthat anybody can create their
(14:02):
thing and put it out in theworld and anybody can hear it.
And what I like to hear is theordinary people out there and
their opinions and their viewsand their creative ideas.
And that's what you're notgetting from someone who decides
that you should have AI talkingabout knitting.
I want to hear the real person.
Why do they like knitting?
(14:23):
What do they feel about this?
So I'm with you.
It's the connection.
Amanda B (14:27):
Yes.
Yeah.
Isn't it interesting how likethe human connection has been so
transformed thanks to likesocial media?
And I think that's a beautifulthing.
What you named, theaccessibility is the gift.
Not everything is bad.
I'm not anti-AI.
I mean, it's here.
It's being poorly used, andthere's no wisdom in the
leadership of those creating itor bussing it, trafficking it.
(14:50):
One thing really quickly,Claire, I know this might not be
the intent of this discussion,but I found it so interesting
because that was a COO of was itWondery?
Yes.
Who started it?
So she said something thatreally sparked a lot of
curiosity and strong reaction.
She said half of the peoplewill be AI.
I, you know what I really thinkshe meant, or that that what
(15:10):
this means practically is that,okay, first off in podcasting,
we have a real issue trackingwho your listener is, right?
You can't tell who's listening,right?
And we all know that there havebeen people gaming like these
systems on monetization.
My theory is that these AI, youknow, this drivel that's being
pushed by some of these people,they're trying to game a market
(15:33):
they created with fakelisteners, fake bots.
There are probably AIlisteners, if you think about
it, that are down.
I mean, it's actually adocumented issue, right?
Because like a lot of theseadvertisers are like, oh shoot,
we're getting ripped off.
So what I think is gonnahappen, hopefully soon, is that
a different monetization economyis gonna have to arise because
(15:53):
nobody wants to pay for a bunchof robots listening to their
stuff.
That's not a consumer who'sgonna buy a product because
that's the ultimate ROI, right?
So I think that this is goodnews for us, or at least they
might be optimistic, in thatthey're gonna need proof of
humanity.
And that's gonna come back tohost red ads, that's gonna come
back to human interaction,that's gonna come back to some
sort of proof of concept thatyour podcast is reaching human
(16:17):
ears and living people who aregoing to make a decision, who
are gonna build a relationshipwith the host.
So anyway, nerd talk aside, Idon't know if that makes you
feel better, Claire.
I feel a little better justsaying it does it's a very
positive spin on it.
Claire Waite Brown (16:30):
I love it.
It's even more meta thanpodcasts about podcasting, um,
that the AIs are making contentfor AIs to listen to.
Amanda B (16:39):
Good for them.
AI, unl until AIs have theright to earn income, which
they're not going to.
I mean, I know there'slegislation to give them IP and
personhood.
I mean, that that's at the endof the day, they're gonna be
using up a lot of theirresources for AI and it's not
gonna go anywhere.
Claire Waite Brown (16:55):
Yeah, no, brilliant.
Okay, moving on.
Podcasting 2.0, which is a lotof what we're all about here at
TrueFans.
What do you know about that?
Amanda B (17:06):
All of these um norms seem to be driving towards
standardizing how we arequantifying things so that it
can translate into monetization,which is how we're defining
growth and audience reach.
I appreciate thestandardization.
I like the accountability forum different distributors to
fall in line with IAB, forexample.
(17:27):
That's very helpful both forthe advertiser and for the
creator side.
Nobody wants to be ripped off.
Other than that, I'm I'm astudent of yours, Claire.
Tell me, tell me your thoughts.
And I mean, I know you you andSam talk about it quite a bit,
but in a nutshell, like what areyou finding positive about it?
What do you think is the wayforward?
Claire Waite Brown (17:45):
Well, it's interesting that you feel the
focus is on the monetizationbecause I think a lot of people
do feel that.
And initially they will think,oh, it's all about Bitcoin.
But it is a lot of the featuresof podcasting 2.0 are good for
creators and listeners fordiscovery and for interactivity.
So, for example, on the 2.0apps, your listeners can leave
(18:09):
comments for your episodeswithin the app so they don't
have to go somewhere else.
Amanda B (18:14):
Ah yeah.
Claire Waite Brown (18:16):
And discovery point of view, maybe
like obviously you've got yourtranscripts, that's an extra bit
of SEO.
And I do understand what you'resaying, because this frustrates
me.
When I started making my showPodcasting 2.0 in practice, I
started learning more about thedifferent things that the
hosting companies do and don'tsupport.
And that is frustrating.
So you're talking aboutstandardization, which is what,
(18:37):
from a 2.0 point of view, thepodcast standards project wants
to get to.
But right now, Buzz Sprout willsupport the person tag.
Captivate doesn't support thattag.
Right, right.
That can be confusing.
But you can do these thingsdirectly in TrueFans, they'll
only be seen in TrueFans.
Because what I want, there'stwo things I like for you.
(18:59):
The first one is I would lovefor you to use the person
feature.
So if you look at creators fromTrueFans on TrueFans, you'll
see a picture of me, a pictureof Sam, and a picture of our
guest, which will be you forthis episode.
Now, what I think you could do,what I'd love to see, is for
your show a picture of you andthen your three co-executive
(19:23):
producers.
Amanda B (19:24):
I want to see genius.
I love everything about this.
Clara, you're awesome.
This is great.
Claire Waite Brown (19:31):
So that can be done, and once you claim your
show in True Fans, you canactually do that directly in
TrueFans.
I can tell you more about thatin the future if it's relevant.
Um, the other thing I like theidea of for your show is
chapters.
Yes.
Because of the way you talkabout the different topics.
So, for example, I would havesaid to my son, listen to the
ninja bit, because I found thatreally interesting.
(19:54):
He wouldn't necessarily listento the whole podcast.
But for me to say to him, justgo to the chapter on the ninjas,
then you know, he's listened toa bit, he might then love it
and listen to the rest of it.
The other thing I think youcould do with those chapters is
you can put links in.
All the lovely stuff you put inyour show notes with, you know,
your experts and your citationsand your resources, you can
(20:16):
actually put those in thechapters so a listener can
actually click on the link whilethey're listening and be taken
somewhere.
Those are just two of the onesthat I thought would be really
good for your particular show.
Amanda B (20:28):
Absolutely.
Wonderful suggestions, Claire.
That's why you're the pro.
Really quick.
So I I I feel so ignorantbecause I used to work at the
podcast academy.
So podcasting 2.0, those arethose are tech protocols, right?
Like they're they're okay, yes.
So I'm not as I'm not adeveloper, and that's why my my
surface level understanding isjust how does it hit me as a
(20:49):
creator?
Claire Waite Brown (20:50):
That's why I'm here, you see.
So my podcast, Podcasting 2.0in practice, talks about each
feature just one at a time, andtells the podcaster or the
listener why they're good, whythey're good for you.
And then I actually have ahomework episode which tells you
how to do the thing, how tofind it, how to set it up.
(21:11):
Because I don't know the tech.
I don't need to know how thetech works, but what I do know
is why it's a good thing andjust how to set it up.
Yes.
There are a number of featuresand they're designed to improve
our experience, whether as alistener or as a podcaster.
Amanda B (21:28):
Yeah.
Oh, that's brilliant.
Oh, thank you for clarifyingthat, pun intended, Clara.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Claire Waite Brown (21:35):
Comes with the territory.
Now, don't get too excited, butI've sent you some money for
your TrueFans wallet.
So I've given you a review,which I attached 100 sats to.
I've been streaming whilelistening, five sats per minute.
It really is a very smallamount of money.
I really mean don't get tooexcited about it.
About 12 pence or something,but just to show how listeners
(22:01):
can support you.
So one thing they can do is seta streaming rate and they send
you sats from their wallet perminute that they listen.
Oh.
And that's what I've been doingfor your show.
So that's another thing you'llsee when you'll claim your show,
you have a tiny little bit ofmoney in your wallet.
Amanda B (22:16):
Oh my gosh, this is amazing.
Well, I appreciate you all somuch.
See creators, people who areactually on the ground, should
be leading these things.
So thank you so much, Claire.
Awesome.
I'm excited.
Yay!
Claire Waite Brown (22:27):
Well, thank you very much for chatting with
me today.
It's been lovely to meet you.
Tell everybody how everybodycan connect with you and
6 Degrees of Cats.
Amanda B (22:38):
Amazing.
Well, 6 Degrees of Cats,thankfully, is the only one of
that title.
So you can type it into yoursearch engine, six degrees of
cats.
Sixdegreesofcats.com will takeyou there or linktr.ee slash six
degrees of cats.
We are at six, the number, sixdegrees of cats, on all major
social media platforms,excluding X.
(23:00):
Well, we're actually on there,but I'm never on there.
Why would I be there?
And I welcome any and all greatquestions about cat stuff.
I may not be able to answerthem, but I love hearing from
people.
And thank you so much, Claire.
Claire Waite Brown (23:16):
I somehow managed to lose the last little
bit at the end of thatrecording.
Sam Sethi (23:20):
We've all done that.
Claire Waite Brown (23:22):
I have no idea how.
But anyway, thank you, Amanda,for a fab chat, which you can
hear a little bit more of at theend of this episode of
Creators, including why Amandais not the person to go to with
your cat's health concerns,although she is always happy to
send you to her expert guests ifshe thinks they could be more
(23:43):
helpful.
Sam Sethi (23:44):
Why are you so keen on seeing Amanda's coexecutive
producers using the person tag,Claire?
Claire Waite Brown (23:51):
Well, you can actually see for yourself
now, because Amanda said I couldadd those for her.
So go to 6 Degrees of Cats andyou will be able to see, thanks
to the wonderful 2.0 person tag,Amanda herself and her
co-producers Binky, Snuggles,and Peanut.
Sam Sethi (24:11):
And that is on TrueFans only.
Claire Waite Brown (24:13):
That is on TrueFans Only, this is true.
Well remembered, Sam, yeah.
Sam Sethi (24:17):
Because you did ask for that feature and we went,
okay, we'll do that for you,Claire.
We always do it for you.
But yes, you can see theco-producers of the 6 Degrees of
Cats on TrueFans.
But on a more uh serious note,what we've done is we've allowed
you to put using the persontag, the hosts, you can also
choose to have uh executiveproducers or other people with
(24:41):
different roles on your podcastpage if you want as well.
Claire Waite Brown (24:45):
Yeah, there are loads of roles to choose
from, as I discovered when I wasputting Binky Snuggles and
Peanuts on the page.
Sam Sethi (24:53):
There is a link to 6 Degrees of Cats in the show
notes as well, and new episodesare highlighted on the homepage
at TrueFans, so the podcast iseasy to find there.
Claire Waite Brown (25:02):
And if you'd like to explore anything that
Amanda and I talked about inthat interview, please leave us
a comment or super comment,which is easy to do in TrueFans
by clicking on the speech bubbleicon or the tab called comments
under the icons, and we canstrike up a conversation.
Sam Sethi (25:21):
And while you're there, if you're an independent
podcast creator, why not putyourself forward to be a future
guest like 6 Degrees of Cat onthis show?
Claire Waite Brown (25:30):
If you'd like to chat with us about your
independent podcast or yourmusic, send a comment or super
comment in TrueFans to anycreators episode by clicking on
the speech bubble icon or on thecomment tab.
Sam Sethi (25:45):
Question time.
What do you want to ask me thistime?
Claire Waite Brown (25:48):
Yes, we've chatted in the past on this show
about highlighting awardsfinalists and winners, and now
we have the finalized umarrangement of that, don't we,
Sam?
How do people find new showsbased on their awards
nominations or wins?
Sam Sethi (26:07):
So it was your idea, so let me give you full credit
for it.
And it's a great way of addingmore discovery to TrueFans.
So we created a dedicatedawards page, truefans.fm slash
awards, or you can find it fromthe Discovery drop-down menu.
And uh what it gives us the 13or 14 different current awards
(26:28):
that we have populated.
Some of them we haven't yetbecause they were in early 2025,
and so we'll wait for the nextuh round of awards.
But for example, the BritishPodcast Awards that were
recently done or the IndependentPodcast Awards, you can click
through on those and you'll seeall the award uh entrants at
different stages cloud.
(26:48):
If it's nominees, we'll showall the nominees, then when it
gets to finalists, we'll reducethe nominees down, and then when
it gets to the final winners,we'll leave it as a grouping.
But what we've done is we'veturned the uh page into a
playlist so you can actuallyplay all the podcasts as one
playlist.
You can copy that into your ownplaylist and edit it down, and
(27:11):
we will always use what we calla dynamic playlist, which means
we will always show the latestepisode of that podcast.
So, yeah, a lovely way todiscover new podcasts.
Claire Waite Brown (27:23):
I've certainly found a few new shows
to add to my queue, having beenputting them all in for the um
independent podcast awards.
So I've discovered some reallyinteresting and inventive and
just wonderfully creative stuffout there.
Sam Sethi (27:37):
Now, fanbox.
Have we heard from any of ourlisteners, Claire?
Claire Waite Brown (27:41):
We have.
So we received a comment fromNeil Russell Brooker.
He clicked on that, well, Idon't know if he clicked on the
icon or the comment tab, but youget the idea.
And he said, Hi all.
Landed here after seeing FrankRassiopi's review on Earworthy.
Yes, Frank did a lovely reviewof creators on his um Earworthy
(28:01):
blog.
Back to Neil, he says, This wasevery bit as interesting and
helpful as I hoped.
Following the invite at the endof the first segment of the
interview with Frank, I'd liketo pitch my audio drama podcast,
I is for investigate.
I'm co-creator, producer, andperformer, and I'd really love
the opportunity to publicize ithere.
(28:22):
I love, personally, this isback to Claire now, the
different genres of podcast, andaudio drama is one I've been
looking to cover.
So that was really good to hearfrom Neil.
Excellent.
Sam Sethi (28:34):
Well done, Neil.
Uh I also see we have thiscomment from uh somebody called
Fanzone Claire.
Do you know her?
Claire Waite Brown (28:41):
I do know her.
That is, in fact, me.
And a profile I created to makechapter art for this show and
for Fanzone.
In doing that and testing outwhat you promise us, Sam.
Sam Sethi (28:55):
Last time you announced that we Don't don't
self-promise things, careful.
Claire Waite Brown (28:59):
But you did, and you came through because we
both wanted to encouragelisteners to leave comments.
And you thought that a good wayto do this would be by adding a
little financial reward.
So I tested that out andfanzone Claire, she earned 10
sats.
If you go to episode 12 ofCreators from True Fans and the
(29:22):
chapter called Earn byCommenting on This Podcast, you
will hear us talking about this,but you can also see how this
works from the chapter art thatI created.
Sam Sethi (29:32):
I think one thing I wanted to get across here for
independent podcast creators isin TrueFans, once you've claimed
your podcast, you can go to themonetization tab.
And in there you'll seesomething called marketing
budget.
And it allows you to put anamount of money into that field.
Then you can either pay peopleto listen to your trailer, so
(29:53):
that will incentivize people tosay, okay, I can enter money by
listening to your trailer.
And on the back of that.
They might become a fan.
On the back of that, they alsomight tell their friends.
But you can also do that forcomments, which is what we're
doing.
So in the comments, we makesure that you can incentivize
black people to leave comments.
And I think it's important inthe early days of what
(30:15):
podcasting 2.0 is doing istrying to teach people that
there are different ways to helpuh listeners become fans.
And one way maybe to get peopleinto the habit of leaving
comments, and maybe just thatlittle incentive to get the ball
rolling is a good way of doingit.
A little ten sat isn't going tobreak the bank, but it might
(30:36):
actually make someone feel that,oh, okay, it's worth my time to
leave you a comment as well,because you value my time and
attention.
Claire Waite Brown (30:44):
Okay.
Moving on, what have youspotted happening in the world
that may be of interest andrelevance to independent
podcasters?
Sam Sethi (30:53):
One of the things that sadly happened a few weeks
back was a friend of ours, ToddCochrane, passed away.
He was the CEO of Blueberry.
One of the things that Todd hadfamously said and done was not
increase the price of Blubrryhosting for 20 years.
But I think economic hardshipis forcing not just Blubrry who
(31:14):
will be increasing their pricesin October in the next couple of
weeks, but also Buzzsprout.
But also BuzzSprout quietlyincreased their price from $12 a
month to $19 a month.
I think we'll see Captivate didthe same and many of the
others.
So I think you're justbeginning to see a little bit of
price increases across theboard for podcast hosts.
(31:36):
Just something for people to beaware of.
Because I think there are newentrants coming into the market,
but there are also lots andlots of you know micro price
increases.
We've seen it with things likeediting tools like D escript,
we've seen it with Canva, we'veseen it with now hosting.
So just as a person creatingpodcasts, you've just got to be
(31:57):
aware that the cost ofproduction is going up.
Now, a little teaser here.
We have mentioned it in passingbefore.
TrueFans will be becoming ahosting platform as well.
We will be doing it in a verydifferent way to the current way
that hosting is done.
There will be a pricing pageand a wait list coming up in the
(32:17):
next couple of weeks as well.
So we'll tell you in the nextshow all about it.
But yes, we will be a TrueFanshosting platform as well as a
TrueFans app.
Claire Waite Brown (32:27):
Brilliant.
Very exciting.
Sam Sethi (32:29):
Now one of the other things that I saw this week that
might be interesting to peopleis the IAB.
What are you like today?
I have no idea what's going onwith my brain.
Jeez Louise, someone someonegive me back my dentures.
Something else I saw this week,it was the IAB has suggested
(32:51):
that podcast advertising willtop $3 billion in 2025.
We hadn't quite crossed the $2billion mark last year.
So it's exciting to see.
I I only mention this, Claire,in that I get a general feel
that the industry is going backinto a more flourishing period.
We are seeing hosts reportingthat they're having an increase
(33:13):
in the number of peoplepodcasting.
We're seeing obviously at thetop of the tree more people
coming off TV and radio intopodcasting.
And I think more people are nowdiscovering and using podcasts
rather than mainstream TV orradio as the means to entertain
themselves.
And on the back of that, Iguess advertisers are going,
hmm, that's where the audienceis.
(33:33):
So we'll see more money cominginto podcasting and hopefully
money trickling down to peopleas well who are on the lower
than 1%.
You know, they're not the JoeRogan.
But it'd be nice if someadvertising also becomes
intelligent and starts to lookat the niches of podcasting on
the long tail rather than alwaysfocusing on the top 1%.
Claire Waite Brown (33:55):
When you're in a smaller show, you may well
take some time to approachsmaller companies yourself that
fit in with that niche.
I've had a couple recentlywhich has been really nice, and
I like to, for creativity fans,say that look, I offer this
affordable advertising that goesto a very specific audience,
(34:15):
and I'm able to choose sponsorsbased on how relevant they are
to my show, which is brilliant.
Now, that doesn't mean I getthem every single month, but
there's another aspect tosponsorship or advertising than
BetterHelp and all that thateverybody used to talk about.
Sam Sethi (34:32):
Claire, are we meeting in London next week by
any chance?
Claire Waite Brown (34:35):
Well, we are, we are, yes.
You are giving an award at theIndependent Podcast Awards.
I will be there becausePodcasting 2.0 in Practice is a
finalist in the category calledScience and Technology, which I
have a little smile in thebackground because as someone
who started podcasting withCreativity Found, which is a
(34:58):
very arty farty, hippy-dippy,self-help, well-being type show,
I find it very amusing that I'mnow in the science and
technology category.
But that, yeah, that's really,really, really exciting.
So that event is happening onOctober the 15th, the actual
awards themselves.
So I, as usual, am lookingforward to hanging out with lots
(35:21):
of other podcasty people andespecially independent podcasty
people.
Sam Sethi (35:25):
Wouldn't it be funny if I give you the award?
Claire Waite Brown (35:28):
No.
I already thought that.
I was like, no, we better notbe doing my one.
Sam Sethi (35:32):
That would be that would be the irony of funniness
ever.
Claire Waite Brown (35:36):
I've actually listened, I've listened
to the other podcasts in mycategory, and they're very good.
Not that mine isn't, butthey're very good.
Sam Sethi (35:47):
Uh and the last thing, uh, if anyone's
interested who didn't make itover to podcast movement in
Dallas recently, all of theaudio and video from all of the
seminars is online now.
They're free and available toeveryone.
Claire Waite Brown (36:01):
I did have a listen to the one by Daniel J.
Lewis about podcasting 2.0.
So that was a really good talkfrom him in a very positive and
human way about what podcasting2.0 features can do for you and
how they're doing good things.
Sam Sethi (36:20):
And also there was a good one from Adam Curry, the
inventor of podcasting, withRocky Thomas from Soundstack as
well.
Well worth listening to aswell.
Of course.
And that's it for this week,Claire.
Uh audio is recorded onRiverside, edited by yourself,
Claire, and we're hosted by ourfriends Buzzsprout.
Claire Waite Brown (36:37):
You can support this show by streaming
SATS from your true fans walletor leave us a super comment, or
better still, become a monthlysupporter of this show.
Sam Sethi (36:48):
And if you'd like to promote your podcast in the feed
for this show, click on youravatar and go down to the
creators dashboard, then clickon the pencil icon next to the
podcast.
Finally go to promotions, andthen in the podcast promotion,
search for creators fromTrueFans, and you can send us a
request to have your showpromoted in our feed.
Claire Waite Brown (37:11):
You can find out more about how to use the
features of the TrueFansplatform by listening to our
sister podcast fanzone.
And if you're keen to learnmore about podcasting 2.0 in
general, do check out mycourse-based podcast called
Podcasting 2.0 in practice.
Don't forget, you can keeplistening to hear more from this
(37:32):
episode's featured creator.
Amanda B (37:35):
So this is a really productive way for me to put
those 3 a.m.
genius ideas into somethingthat people can actually see or
hear.
Claire Waite Brown (37:45):
Yeah, that's where a lot of my ideas come
from when I'm waking up in themorning.
Like, I've got to write thisdown and then let it um
percolate.
Yeah.
Amanda B (37:54):
Yeah.
When are you the most creative?
Are you do you find yourselflike more creative in the
morning or afternoon or evening?
Claire Waite Brown (38:00):
I think it must be because I'm rested that
the ideas come to the forefrontin the head, which is why I
think of them when I'm wakingup.
And the other time is when I'min the shower.
I think when I'm in the shower,it comes more of a like, oh,
this is how to do that thing Ithought of.
And that's how it kind ofprogresses.
(38:20):
I love that.
What about interactivity?
Do you have comments?
I I would imagine yourlisteners might even give you
suggestions for topics.
Does that happen?
Amanda B (38:31):
They do.
Yes.
I love that.
Now it's not like I get a floodof this.
I'm I'm gonna just validateeverybody's thoughts and that
ain't not enough time in a dayto do all this social media
interaction.
Overall, we podcasters in termsof growth when it comes to
monetization are asked to createcommunity, right?
And community is created whenthere's interactions.
(38:52):
And so I'm still trying to beproducing the thing a lot of the
time that I have right now.
Yeah.
But in the off season, buildingcommunity is what we we can do
and should do.
So yes, comments, suggestions,stuff like that.
A lot of people, I actually hadsomebody asking me for cat
advice.
There's so many wonderful,wonderful cat-themed podcasts
(39:12):
speaking specifically aboutfeelest catus, the animal
itself.
We're not quite that.
In fact, we're not that.
We're like the radio lab forcats, as my dear friend at the
Cat Museum of New York Citycalled us.
You know, we're a narrated,semantic podcast.
Cats are the cats are themascot and the theme, but they
are not the central topic.
Claire Waite Brown (39:31):
Yeah.
Don't come to me withveterinarian questions.
I do my best.
Amanda B (39:35):
Yeah.
I'll shout out my experts.
I'd love them to grow theirbusiness through my podcast, but
I am not.
I I do my best with my three,but I wouldn't say they'd be
like, Yeah, right, she's anexpert on us.
She doesn't even feed us enoughchicken, you know.
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