MURDERED: Kristin David

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 4 (01:00):
High Crime Donkeys. I'm your host Ashley Flowers, and I'm
Britt and we are back with the details of a
case that I ever so briefly touched on last episode. Now,
if you missed that one, don't stress. You don't need
to hear it to jump into this one today. But
I highly recommend taking a listen later because the victim
in today's case always gets lumped in with a group

(01:20):
of missing and murdered people from this small Pacific northwest
area that authorities and community locals believe were all killed
by the same man. But this case has always been
the outlier because of how this young woman was found
dismembered and in garbage bags floating in the Snake River.

(01:41):
The thing is, I think she very well could be
a victim of a serial killer, just not the one
we talked about last week. I've been tracking a new
man who somehow kept turning up in the same areas
as dismembered women in the nineteen eighties, and I want
to bring crime junkies in on the investigation because I

(02:03):
need your help. So listen to the details of today's
case closely, and then I need you to reach out
to me if you know of any local cases in
your area or beyond with a similar mo O, because
I've already got at least five on my radar. But
I can't shake the feeling that there is more. But
let me start with the University of Idaho student whose

(02:24):
story came well before the Idaho four that you heard
two weeks ago on this show. This is the story
of Kristen David. In late June and into the first

(03:06):
couple of days of July nineteen eighty one, police in
the Lewis Clark Valley, right where Washington and Idaho meet
are getting a flood of calls in response to local
news of a missing co ed from the University of Idaho.
Twenty two year old Kristin David was on summer break,
and while she was going to be staying with her
sister in Lewiston, Idaho, she wanted her bike and like

(03:27):
a couple of other things that she left behind at
her campus apartment. So on June twenty fifth, she had
a friend drive her the thirty miles or so back
to Moscow, Idaho, so she could get her things, and
then she was going to actually bike back the next
morning on the twenty sixth. I mean the ride was
mostly downhill, would take her maybe three hours, easily doable
for Kristen, except she never made it back to Lewiston,

(03:50):
both her and her bike just vanished somewhere along the
long stretch of Highway ninety five. Now, it took a
few days for police to consider foul play in Kristin's case,
but as news of her disappearance made its way to locals,
plenty of people were calling in sidings of her from
the twenty six Some were innocuous, just saying that she
was biking alone with those kind of help pinpoint how

(04:11):
far she might have made it before she disappeared, But
other sightings were more ominous, and over and over again
police were hearing about a man and a mysterious brown
van that may have been with Kristin on the side
of the highway. Now, these sightings differ a little bit
based on who comes forward.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Like.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
For instance, one man says that he saw the brown
van parked on the side of the road and a
woman who looked like Kristin was loading her bike into
the back of it with help from this man. They
said she didn't look distressed, so he didn't stop or
do anything or whatever. Then another witness named James claims
to have seen a similar looking van pulled over to
the side of the highway close to this town. Called Genesee,

(04:51):
which is just north of Lewiston, and in this sighting,
the driver was standing outside on the driver side, and
a young blond woman mac Christen's description, was standing towards
the rear of the van and the bicycle was like
laying in the weeds. Based on the scene, he assumed
that the girl had some kind of accident and that
this man was helping her, although James says that he

(05:14):
saw a shadow and two feet on the opposite side
of the van, like there was someone else on the
other side that he just couldn't see, And he said
he didn't stop because again he thought this guy was
already stopping and helping and you know, nobody would need him.
So being nineteen eighty one, as police start getting a
flood of these vague descriptions, they begin bringing people in
to put them under hypnosis, hoping to get more details

(05:36):
about this mystery van or ideally the license plate. All
of the witnesses agreed that the brown van was sporting
an Oregon license plate, and a few under hypnosis can
remember some of the letters and numbers, like James says
that the last two digits were three seven, and that's
backed up by another witness who says the plate had

(05:57):
the numbers seven to three seven.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Were any of them to describe the driver, Yes.

Speaker 4 (06:02):
They were, and not any better under hypnosis, But like
in their initial statements, they all give this similar ish description.
One witness who was driving past says this guy had
like this full kind of shaggy beard. Another describes this
guy as quote unquote grubby, whatever that means to that person.
And James comes in with the most detailed description, describing

(06:23):
this man as approximately thirty years old. He's a white
guy by ten to six feet tall. He said he
had a husky build maybe if he had to guess,
one seventy five to one eighty, with a trimmed beard,
brown hair, and wearing a brown and white checkers shirt
and army type khaki pants. Although as detailed as that was,
I feel like it's worth noting that James's story changes

(06:47):
some over time. Like for instance, he gives two statements
shortly after Kristen went missing, and the first he mentioned
seeing the feet under the van like someone else was
on the other side, but then in the second one
he doesn't mention any other person. And then the story
he tells years later when he participated in an episode
of the series Cold Valley. It changes like more drastically,

(07:08):
I think at that point in twenty eighteen, he says
that he was driving past and he spotted this brown van,
but now Kristen wasn't standing up, she was laying down
in the grass next to her bike, as though she
had been hit. And then he says he sees the driver,
the one man, getting out of the van, walking back
towards where Kristin was laying, and this dude was smiling.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
And there's no mention of any of these details before.

Speaker 4 (07:37):
No and our team even tried reaching out to James,
but we couldn't get through. So I kind of wonder
if what he saw in eighty one morphed into something
more sinister in his mind, especially after July fourth, when
people finally realized what happened to Kristin after she went missing.
A little over a week after witnesses spotted Kristin on

(07:59):
the side of the road with that bearded man and
brown van. This guy who is spending his fourth of
July fishing on the Snake River spots a black garbage
bag in the water near the river bank, and it's
unusual enough that curiosity gets the best of him and
he looks inside and that's when he sees parts of
kristin David and then downstream there is another one of

(08:22):
these same black trash bags. So he calls police, who
over the course of that evening and the next morning,
collect five bags in total containing parts of Kristen's new
dismembered body. Though according to an article in the South
Idaho Press, it would take five days for them to
confirm her identity officially. Now there was very little evidence

(08:45):
to work with when they removed each part one by
one from the bags. I mean, they couldn't tell exactly
when she had been killed or how long she'd been
in the water. But Detective Jackie Nichols with the Assotan
County Sheriff's Office told us that investigators believe she had
likely died either the day she went missing or very
shortly after. Kristen's body showed signs of skin slippage, which

(09:08):
is like a natural part of decomposition, but it is
slowed down when a body is in the water. So
according to my research, it can take as little as
twenty four hours for this to happen. After a body
is placed in water, although there are like a ton
of different factors that can impact this. So the working
theory is that she was killed and then dumped relatively quickly,
and then what probably happened is the bags sank to

(09:30):
the bottom of the river before surfacing and then being
discovered on the fourth. And all of that to say,
investigators then were left with little hope of collecting any
biological evidence, and none of her personal effects like jewelry
or anything else was found on her body either. And
it's interesting. I do see a note in the files
that we have seen that says she had a wrist

(09:52):
watch that she was known to wear, and that watch
was located, but I'm not sure where it was found,
like was it with her remains or did they go
back to her apartment or something and find it there.
I don't know, But there was one clue left behind
by whoever wrapped Kristin and put her in those bags.
Each body part was wrapped in newspapers, and they realized

(10:16):
that the newspapers were from four different issues of the
Lewiston Morning Tribune. They were dated April seventh, April seventeenth,
April nineteenth, and April twenty fourth, which to me is
interesting because it's not like someone just found one random
paper like it really is more of a series of papers,
as though the killer used the ones that had been

(10:38):
delivered to their home and whatever was around, right, And sure,
there are thousands of other scenarios where these could have
been picked up or found or whatever, But I mean,
think about it, this person had to have somewhere to
go to dismember Kristin in the first place. They're going
to go somewhere that they know, somewhere that's private, that
they are familiar with and feel comfortable in.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Well, and so familiar that they get the daily paper there.

Speaker 4 (11:01):
That's my thinking because nothing about this feels sloppy or rushed.
This person took their time to do exactly what it
is they wanted to do to her. I mean, her
dismemberment is described as almost surgical, like whoever did this
either has medical knowledge.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Or has done this before exactly.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
And there were also signs of mutilation on her body
and some sort of muscle or tissue in her mouth.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Do we know anything about her cause of death?

Speaker 4 (11:32):
So transparently yes. So we obtained some of Kristen's files
through a Foyer request, and there is documentation of her
cause of death and other injuries she sustained. But Detective
Nichols has asked that we don't publicize that information. While
she isn't the lead investigator on Christen's case, she has
done a lot of work on it and she thinks
that it would be best not to get into that

(11:54):
in detail. And then we couldn't get in contact with
the actual lead investigator at the FBI and office wasn't
willing to answer any of our questions. So, just out
of respect for Detective nichols requests, we're not going to
get into that. But to answer your question, yes we know,
and investigators do know. And here's something I can tell
you that I don't think has been reported before and

(12:15):
something that I think could be a hallmark of her
killer's mo O.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
My name's Chad.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Powers, streaming on Disney Plus. Glenn Powell is Chad Powers.
Who is that guy? He's doing a missus doubtfire. That
was one hell of a performance, but with football hi
Key Powers. If you are a puzzle a brand new
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(12:45):
a new original series exclusively on Disney Plus eighteen plus
subscription required decency's apply.

Speaker 4 (12:53):
I told you they discovered five different bags in the
Snake River. They found her head, her torso, both arms,
some of them were double bagged, and then her left
leg and hips and buttocks were found, all connected, but
not in a bag. Now, the upper part of her
right thigh was also recovered, but I can't tell from

(13:17):
the reports if that was in a bag or not.
But what I'm getting at is, when all is said
and done, when the whole shore had been searched and
investigators were ready to pack everything up, the rest of
her right leg, so we're talking everything from the knee
down was never found, never recovered. What could searchers have

(13:37):
just missed it? Possibly? I mean, there's one report I
saw in the case file that briefly mentions seeing a
similar looking black trash bag floating like way out in
the middle of the river, and since the waters were choppy,
no one could get to it before it disappeared. So
maybe that's where her missing leg ended up. But also
I don't see ny reports of that turning up Blader
or being found by anyone else, and so I can't help.

(13:59):
But wonder could the killer have kept it? And you'll
see why I asked that question a little bit later.
So it's not just me being like wild crime, vinkiberries.
It really is the question of could this be part
of his emo? And that remains to be seen. So
despite a thorough search of the shoreline, nothing else is recovered,
and there's still the question of where her body went

(14:22):
into the river. And detectives here are in luck because
they're soon contacted by a woman who says that she
and a couple of others found two separate stains of
what looked like blood on the railing of a bridge
a few miles upstream from where Kristen's body was found.
So investigators go check it out and the spots are
still there, and it may be because of this that

(14:45):
investigators start theorizing that Kristen's body was dumped off this
bridge into the water below. And then two witnesses even
come forward later stating that they saw what looked like
a dark van parked on that bridge, possibly on the
same day that Kristen went missing. Now, these witnesses didn't
actually see anything suspicious, They just said that the driver
of the van sort of matched the description that they've

(15:06):
been working with, and the guy didn't look happy that
someone had seen them. But it's not like this witness
actually saw this person throwing bags over the railing. And
I could talk to you about who saw the spots
and when they saw them, and go round in circles,
but I'm not going to build you up only to
bring you down. Because samples of that maybe blood are
collected later tested and it's determined to not even be

(15:28):
blood at all. It doesn't mean that someone didn't still
use that bridge to put the bags in the water.
Doesn't mean it didn't happen on a tight timeline, right,
But this doesn't offer any kind of proof, like they're
right where they were before.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Did they ever find her bike or pieces of her
bike or anything.

Speaker 4 (15:45):
No, not her bike, not her clothes, not even some
of the personal items that detectives learned she would have
most likely have had on her, like her checkbook and
her coin purse.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
When you see a coin purse and I'm thinking of
a serial killer, it feels like one of those things
that he would keep as like a trophy or a souvenir.

Speaker 4 (16:01):
It depends on a difference, right, It depends on what
he would have done with it, if I remember correctly,
Like trophies I believe were the kinds of things that
killers would give to someone else. They can see them
wearing it or holding it, like that's what they get
off on souvenirs they kind of just keep tucked away.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Okay, But still I could see him keeping something little
like a coin purse or a checkbook, but something big
like her bike. I feel like that would be hard
to like hide away it would it would be like noticeable.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
I know in my mind, Like throwing it in the
river would have been easy. But I mean unless they
totally just missed it, like they searched that river, it's
not there. Which makes me come back to the idea
that it could be this guy's home or something like that,
wherever he did the dismemberment, Like did he have a
place that he could also store the bike to keep
that out of sight?

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Do you think there's a chance that he could have
done everything in like the back of his van, Like
this van keeps like popping up in these like sightings
and stuff.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
So it's a possibility. And actually, Detective Nickel said something
interesting that might play into this. So she said that
whoever dismembered Christen had some struggles with her legs, like
one of her upper thighs, either the right or the left,
I'm not sure which one, had some cuts that indicate
that her killer had trouble dismembering her. Like I said,

(17:17):
so to kind of spell it out for you, Kristen
essentially was taken apart at the joints, almost like a
hunter would break down an animal. So maybe he's in
an area where when you have a limb as big
as a leg, like you have issues, Right, that's totally.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Possible, like if you're in a van, right.

Speaker 4 (17:34):
Or one of the reasons he might have had trouble
is if you think about a hunter who's used to animals,
on humans, the hip joint is higher than you might think, which.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Would indicate a hunter versus someone with like medical knowledge,
knowledge of the human anatomy. Right, that's not a mistake
that they would make. They would know that it sits higher. Right.

Speaker 4 (17:54):
So again, is he like cramped for space or did
he not know where to go in at initially? And
again this is just a theory, and I feel like
hunters in rural Idaho are a dime a dozen. So
who knows if it even means anything, but regardless of
the killer's background, the search for that van is all
the more important. So, based on what they know from

(18:17):
witness sightings, detectives come up with a list of plates
and vehicles that they want to check. I mean, they
literally went to the DMV in Oregon, pulled registrations for
every Oregon plate, ending with a variety of combinations of
the reported numbers seven three seven three seven, whatever, and
then from there they whittled it down to just brown vans,
and then they individually followed up on every single one.

(18:41):
It was time consuming and difficult and would have been
worth it had anything come of it. But unfortunately, check
after check they don't get anything. They don't get any
suspects that seem to stick. And even though they do
a bunch of searches of nearby houses and sheds and barns,
basically anywhere that could hide a very bloody crime scene,

(19:04):
that turns up nothing either. They aren't out of things
to do yet, though. A composite sketch is created within
the first few days of the investigation based on those
witness reports, and they're fine, but not any more helpful
than the vague descriptions we already have of a white
guy with brown hair, but like, forget what this guy
looks like? Who is this guy as a person?

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Like a profile. I love a good profile.

Speaker 4 (19:30):
This one delivers. I'm assuming it's made by the FBI,
though the document doesn't actually say, but we know that
they've taken over the case now and back in the
early eighties, local law enforcement agencies were not profiling. That
was the FEDS, So they put together this twenty point
psychological profile of this guy. White male, probable age twenty

(19:53):
one to twenty eight years, living alone or with a
girlfriend or mother. Mother would dominate family if family together.
Considered intelligent, but is an underachiever, i e. Others think
he could do much better than what he does high
school education or better. Number six probably owns a late
model vehicle of which he is proud of. Cruises the

(20:16):
area in his vehicle. Which side note we saw that before. Yeah,
it was in the Eve Wilkowitz case that we did. Like,
I feel like it was a year or so ago
at this point for a fan club, And I always
wonder where that comes from, Like, what about a crime
tells you that someone's into late model cars? Or has one.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
Well, yeah, and if I'm remembering correctly, in Eve, we
thought that like maybe that had been connected to like
a witness sighting or something.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yeah, but that was a guess. And like here, I
don't see any witness statements about a car like that.
I mean, granted, I might not have everything, but I
don't know. I'm kind of just wondering if they think
certain types of people are drawn to those and does
that say anything about the larger population who owns these?
Like call me, I have follow up questions, but let's
keep golah. So number seven probably has an arrest record

(21:06):
or discipline record going back to teen years. The record
would be for crimes against persons ie, assaults, fights, violent
type acts. Has a hard time keeping a job as
he considers himself better and more knowledgeable than others, therefore
will not follow directions and orders of others. Considers himself
superior in intelligence to law enforcement officers. Therefore, he will

(21:29):
follow the investigation and might leave clues as the investigation
progresses to aid police might return to the crime scene
at later dates to fantasize and relive the situation. Crime
scene occurred in one area and an attempt to hide
body and evidence made by taking it to another area.
All in the general area of where subject lives round

(21:50):
the number ten. Now, souvenirs will be kept for fantasizing,
which might include body parts, clothing in other persons items
victims had at the time. So when you were talking
about coinperst, yes, possibly.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
When you were talking about the lower part of her leg.

Speaker 4 (22:06):
Also, possibly this is what I was saying I was
obsessed with. Photographs might have been taken of the body
to help relive event at later date. Victim will not
be known to subject, but was available when situation presented itself.
Death probably came quickly to victim, no torture. There might
not have been any sexual intercourse before or after death.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Oh question was the mutilation to Kristen Dunn pre or
Postmardem likely post.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
According to Detective Vcals number fourteen, the incident is psycho
sexually satisfying to the subject. Although an impersonal event, the
victim means nothing to him and he has no remorse
over what he did. Subject will have lived in the
area for a period of time and will be known
to various people in his community. Bite marks or stab

(22:58):
wounds commonly made after death seventeen. Weapon used to cause
death will normally be his own, as opposed to a
weapon of opportunity. We'll keep the weapon for a period
of time. As this fantasy wears off, we'll kill again,
and more frequently as time passes. We'll have fantasized about

(23:20):
what he would do to a girl if the situation
presented itself i e. Premeditated, And when the situation does occur,
he conducts himself as he has fantasized. And finally, Number
twenty might have left the area after the killing, moving
to another town and establishing himself job, etc. Before he
will kill again. So who fits this psychological profile? There

(23:45):
is no one perfect fit. But there are a ton
of men who have come across Investigator's radar over the years,
and there are a few that I want to talk
about because I swear I've said this a thousand times.
It should be a life role, but I haven't made
it short and so, but this is a reoccurring theme
where I'll come into a cold case, one where there
are no real suspects. It's ice cold, and on the

(24:07):
surface it looks like there would be no suspects because
like no one's talked about any But then you get
to see the files and you dig in and it
is the opposite. I am like, how can there be
this many people around all the time that looks so guilty?
Like they can't all be guilty? So like what the heck?
It has made me start side eyeing every person around me,
like if I died, like what secrets do you have

(24:29):
that would come pouring out?

Speaker 2 (24:31):
And like, I mean, I think that's also just life
rule number one, right, you never really know anyone ever?

Speaker 4 (24:37):
Well, then it's life rule one point one, Like, you
never really know anyone ever until their life intersects with
a criminal investigation, and then there is no.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Hiding unless you have a bad detective.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
Relife rule one point one point. I'm just kidding all
that to say, even though the Kristen David case has
only publicly been linked to the Lewis Clark Valley murders
and disappearances, there were plenty of other highly suspicious people
that came on law enforcement's radar.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
My name's Chad Powers, streaming of Disney plus Glenn Powell
is Chad Powers? Who is that guy? He's doing a
Missus doubtfire. There was one hell of a performance but
with football.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
I like kid Powers than you are a puzzle.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
A brand new original series. Every choice, every mistake carry
you to this fock you were born.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
So this morning, cry Chad.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
Powers, a new original series exclusively on Disney Plus. Eighteen
plus subscription required. Decency's apply.

Speaker 4 (25:39):
Okay, The first couple of guys that I want to
talk about are ones that made a splash for investigators
early on, but then fizzled out pretty quickly. So first
was George Williamson aka Buzz. Now Buzz came on police's
radar because he actually made a report about another guy
that he thought could have killed Christen. Now that other
guy gets cleared, but Buzz remained on police's radar. He

(26:03):
lived on the same street as where Kristen was going
to stay for part of the summer. Plus. He matched
both the composite sketches and some points in the psychological profile,
and was known to be bitter and hateful towards women
due to a divorce and custody battle. According to Detective Nichols,
Buzz also claimed to have done some truly horrific stuff

(26:24):
like disemboweling people in Vietnam when he was deployed there.
He even had a van, although it was purple and yellow,
and mistaking it for being brown when so many people
claim to have seen a brown band seems unlikely.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, purple and yellow quite different.

Speaker 4 (26:39):
Right, But all of that like, even though it's suspicious.
Detective Nichols told us that the FBI has ruled him out. Ultimately,
they determined that a lot of the claims he made
about disemboweling people were actually false. Buzz had been in
the military, but he had never been deployed to Vietnam,
and all those claims of like what he did were

(26:59):
just like one of numerous lies that he told. Detective
Nichols said that while yes, his claims are disturbing, he's
also very mentally ill and makes claims all the time
that can't be substantiated. Plus that van he owned, he
even sold that by the time Kristen went missing. So

(27:19):
next up there was Donald White. In an interview with
police a few years after Kristen's body was discovered, Donald
talks about his friend, this guy named Larry Kanoff, who
he claims he used to grow marijuana with. Now, these
two guys had a huge falling out, after which Don's
children allegedly started remembering bouts of sexual abuse from Larry

(27:41):
and a teenager named Travis. They also claim to have
seen a woman being trapped in the basement of this
other family that Larry allegedly knew and spent time with.
But before we even go spiraling down this rabbit hole,
neither Donald nor Larry were ever really considered legit suspects.
To begin with. Donald talked, it's a big gang, but
when it came time to actually verify details from his story,

(28:04):
he couldn't. Based on what I have, there isn't a
ton of detail around who owned what type of vehicle,
and who did or didn't get the Lewiston paper. And
I think these claims are incredibly concerning. But if those
claims could not be verified, like you know, know they're there,
did they.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Just say Don couldn't verify the claims or did he
actually check with Larry's kids and family to try to
see if all this was real?

Speaker 4 (28:29):
Well, Detective Nichols told us that Don's ramblings were immensely
drug fueled, she said, and so after just like a
brief look, they were like, yeah, no, like this ain't
our guy, and they just kind of moved on. So
that's Don and Larry. I've spent most of my time
digging into someone else, someone who was a blip on

(28:49):
the radar. But maybe you'll see why, like I just
so invested in a second. Let me set the scene.
So I told you early on that investigators searched for
a place that might be the crime scene or where
the dismembery happened, right cabins abandoned buildings. They were also
searching hotels and motels in the area. Well shortly after
Kristen was found. Investigators here from a housekeeper who worked

(29:12):
at the sackaguwaya lodge in Lewiston. She tells them that
on or around June thirtieth of nineteen eighty one, she
went in to clean one of the rooms, and inside
she found a bloody bath towel and then a bloody
hand towel. And I'm not talking about like ooh, I
nicked myself shaving like little Dabby dabs. She claims that

(29:35):
the larger towel was completely soaked save for like one corner. Now,
she couldn't remember exactly which room she found the towel in,
and when investigators asked for the towel itself, she's like oh,
I passed it on so it could be washed and
then like presumably re used.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah. I was just like, if it's being like that, No,
this is like a.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
Whole side story. But I spent so much time on this.
I want I want all of our listeners. If you
work in like the hotel service industry, maintenance, housekeeping, I
want to know your most horrific story, because I cannot fathom.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
This feels like it's gotta be up there. But she's
so nonchalant about it.

Speaker 4 (30:19):
But she's just like another blood soak towel. Can't wait
for the next time. Do you start bringing my own
towels and sheets and everything to hotel rooms? I'm like terrified. Now, yeah,
that towel went back into circulation.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, okay, back on track.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
Sorry, So okay, So she finds this bloody towel again.
She didn't keep it, she sent it off.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
And no one is jotting down the room number. She
can't even remember what day it is.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
No, but this does what I'm saying, Like, I think
they see some wild stuff like yeah, fully blood soak towel,
like another day, another dollar, like and then you know,
police come knocking or she hears about this dismembered body.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
And I was like, huh, I wonder maybe.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
And I don't even know if it was them like knocking,
or or like her seeing on the news or something
that started this whole thing. It might have been the
fact that more bloodied stuff was found at the same motel.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Okay, what is going on there? Girl?

Speaker 4 (31:11):
I like couldn't tell you. And by the way, this
isn't some like remote little highway. I affectionately call them
murder motel.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Which is exactly what I was expecting.

Speaker 4 (31:20):
This is like a This is in downtown Lewiston, which
is like right by the river. I'm not saying this
is like New York City, but it's it's like a
big hotel.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
People see it all the time. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:29):
Anyways, So also at this hotel, this woman finds blood
on a padded suitcase stand when she was cleaning over
a week later on July tenth. Luckily, she remembers that
it was in room two seven to three. And I
don't know if this like jogged memories or what. I
still don't even know if he's in the same room

(31:50):
or different rooms.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Would anyone have seen the suitcase stand Between June thirtieth
and July tenth, Like, I would it be from the
same incidents, I.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
Don't know, because I don't know if anyone in that room,
like in between those or even if they did, did
they actually like pull that out or did like leave
it out for it for housekeeping to see. But police
must be at least considering that this is all the
same thing and it might be related to Christen, because one,
they searched the room and it yields hair samples that

(32:20):
look like they could be from Kristin, and the FBI
do tests on those samples. According to Detective Nichols, one
hair sample was consistent with Kristen's hair type and the
others were not. But I mean, we know consistent could
mean a lot of things. In the case file, the
hair is described as having the quote same microscopic individual

(32:43):
characteristics end quote Like that's not enough, that's not a
DNA comparison, right, But that's where the hair testing stood
as of nineteen eighty one. Number two. The other thing
is they start looking into the room and they specifically
look at who stayed in that room right before the
bloody towel was found on or around June thirtieth, and
they found that on June twenty ninth. The room had

(33:04):
been rented to a Pete Madsen, and the registration clerk
remembered him somehow. She described him as having collar length
blondish hair, maybe like five nine to five eleven, it
was tallish and weighing between one hundred and sixty and
one hundred and eighty pounds, and she also believes she
remembers the car he drove as a yellow Oldsmobile and

(33:25):
lucky for police, she even still had his like check
in paperwork, which included an address that he gave an Emmett, Idaho,
almost five hours south of Lewistown, and information on the
car that he said he had with him, like a
license plate number, and he even wrote down it was
an Oldsmobile, just like the one the clerk thought she saw.
Except when they try and look this guy up, that's

(33:46):
not real. Police matched the license plate number on the
registration not to a Pete Madsen, but to a guy
named Glenn who lived in Boise, And by the way,
Glenn doesn't even drive an Oldsmobile, he drives a Ford.
But according to what he told police, like he wasn't
even in the state when Christian's murder took place. He

(34:07):
said that he was in California going to a family's
wedding and he had left his car behind. So either
someone stole it, which I don't really think so because
we know it's not a Ford that was there or
at least wasn't seen, or someone stole just the plate
on it, or this person just made it up.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
Or maybe it's someone who Glenn knows who just so
happened to know his license plate number.

Speaker 4 (34:33):
Yeah, I mean, the possibilities are endless, but with the
license plate being a bust, they just decide to focus
on the name. And there are a few Pete Madsons
that the FBI looks into. There's Peter J. Peter M.
Peter L. Now it's not clear if like any of
these are the Pete Madson, but based on like identifications

(34:54):
from driver's license and height and who has connections to where,
it seems like the FB tentatively rules out and that's
their quote. Tentatively rules out all of the Pete Madsons,
and Jackie couldn't give us any more information on Pete himself.
But of all of them, I think they spent the
most time and most is like generous because it was
barely any but spent the most time on Pete m Now,

(35:17):
when they looked at the address that was on this registration, right,
we know the plate number is bogus. The address seems
to be bogus two because this address that was listed
for MMET, Idaho, it doesn't belong to a Pete Madson,
It's registered to someone else. However, this someone else does
actually know Pete Madson, who, by the way, drove a

(35:40):
late model car, a nineteen seventy Oldsmobile. And I'm just
gonna read from the FBI report because it's super interesting
to me. So this person quote advised that Pete Madson
resided with him for approximately three weeks during June nineteen
eighty one. On June twenty sixth, nineteen eighty one, Madson
was either en route to Li, was in Idaho, or

(36:01):
was staying with them at their home. I'm redacting the name.
Believed that Madson left his residence to go to Moscow, Idaho,
around six twenty six eighty one or six twenty seven
eighty one, but could not recall the exact date. He
stated that Madson presently resides at he gives his address
Moscow Idaho. Madsen is a student at the University of

(36:24):
Idaho working on his master's degree, and then it goes
on from there. So long story short, it seems like
this Pete Madson is a real person, but like, if
he is connected at all to me is still a mystery.
Though again, the FBI says they have tentatively ruled out
Pete Madson, so maybe that's true. But Pete Madson, whoever

(36:49):
you are, I would love to know your story.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, I don't think there's a world where a bloody
suitcase stand thing and bloody tells turns out to be
like an interesting nothing burger. I have a thing in
this case.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
The one thing I'll say is so Detective Nichols told
us that she doesn't necessarily think what was found on
the suitcase stand was blood because there is absolutely nothing
on the results of the samples that were taken. And
she even has some doubts about the housekeeper's story to
begin with, because I guess each time she talked to
the police, her story just got a little more like

(37:24):
conveniently in depth, Like first she doesn't report the bloody towel,
then all of a sudden, there's a bloody towel, and
then a bloody suitcase stand and then even later she
said that she saw a man holding a bike on
Highway ninety five. Like it just seems like there was
more to the story every single time, and it's so
specific to Kristen that Detective Nichols wonders if maybe she
embellished her story. Still I can't shake it, Like it's

(37:48):
just like I get these like little spidy sense things
sometimes I'm obsessed with this whole Pete thing and not
because this Pete Madsen guy had anything to do with it.
Like everything on that registration seemed to kind of be bogus.
Why like was it really someone named Pete Massen or
did they just pick Like I mean, they would have
had to know that this guy had a friend nmed
Pete Madsen, right, Like.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
There's like so many things that like have to fit
perfectly together for it to be explained. It seems so fantastical.

Speaker 4 (38:14):
But I'll tell you this, this has nothing to do
with anything. But this is like one of those crime
junkie tangents. So when I got obsessed with this Pete
mats and I'm like, who's Pete Madsen, Where's he at
Now Google have you do you have your phone with you?

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yes? You need to told me to keep it with
me today.

Speaker 4 (38:28):
You need to just google Pete Madsen.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
Okay, Pete Madson, nothing else, Just google Pete Madsen. Okay.
Actually I watched this documentary What Are the Odds? So
I can't even like summarize it. But Peter Madsen has
had like a submarine and correct me if I'm wrong.
Like this journalist comes on and is like interviewing about

(38:53):
the submarine and goes on the submarine for like a
ride and then doesn't come.

Speaker 4 (38:58):
Back because Peter Madson membered her. Yeah, so it's not
the same Peter Madsen. Like literally, like the timelines don't
add up. There is no world in.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Which this guy is that guy, right, And like the
case that I'm talking about with the submarine happened in
like the like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, like Barry new
pretty recently.

Speaker 4 (39:17):
Again has nothing to do with anything. But what When
I Google and the first thing to pop up is this,
I was like, Peter Madsen murderer dismember. I was like,
what are I be freaking out? It was so no
that's wild odd, but obviously that didn't happen earlier, and
Pete Madson of nineteen eighty one was more of a
blip on police's radar. They were far more interested in

(39:38):
people like Otis Toole and Henry Lee Lucas as they
popped onto the radar.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Oh the cases haven't they shown up in?

Speaker 4 (39:45):
Honestly, I need to do an actual episode on them
someday because I truly don't know what they have or
have not been firmly linked to, with the exception of
like Adam Walsh, but these dudes were like serial.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Confessor to say, do an episode, it would just be
a of.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
Episodes you've already done.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, crimes that they confess to that we've already covered
and they have nothing to do with.

Speaker 4 (40:05):
That would be the episode. Especially when you have a
case where dismemberment was involved. They tend to show always
show up, especially around this time. But if you know
anything about them, I don't think they fit the profile
at all. And there's no point in spiraling here because
Detective Nichols told us that they too have been ruled out. Now.
Police did spend some time looking into a suspicious butcher,

(40:26):
which I was like, huh again. I know, we said
we're looking for someone with medical knowledge, but like we
talked about a hunter.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, and a butcher would like fit into that sort
of like knowledge base.

Speaker 4 (40:38):
Especially when you think about the fact that each body
part was wrapped in newspaper, Like that feels very butcher
esque to me.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, like wrapping me in butcher paper. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:48):
So this guy, his name's Mike Spring. He comes on
the scene because in September of nineteen eighty one, he
wrecked his pickup truck but then left the scene of
the accident, and when a state trooper the wreckage, he
found several large knives inside.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
Which, like might not be suspicious for a butcher or
meat cutter.

Speaker 4 (41:09):
Maybe not, But when they tracked Mike down, they learned
that he went by a completely different name, oh, Jim Blunk,
which turned out to be his real name. So Mike
Spring was just an alias, And I'm not sure what
exactly made investigators zero in on him at the time,
but when he was asked what he was doing the

(41:29):
day that Kristen vanished, he claimed to be out of town.
And although there is nothing in the report explicitly stating
that his alibi was confirmed. Detective Nichols told us that
they must have confirmed it or found some other reason
to eliminate him, because she said that he was definitely eliminated.
And I looked him up because like, my biggest thing

(41:49):
in these is like, just because something was done a
bazillion years ago, if something is still unsolved, maybe like
go back in check.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
I was gonna say, like, I feel like this is
such a situation where it could be like, but did
we cross that team right? How many times have we
said like, well, they must have been ruled out because
we aren't talking about them today, and that hasn't been
the case.

Speaker 4 (42:06):
I've met so many investigators who are working a cold
case and the file leaves something open ended, and I'm like, so,
how do you know this guy's rolled out? And they're like, oh,
well we just moved on either like oh somebody before
me did it. I'm like, yeah, but how? And if
you can't say how, it's like show your work, right
all that to say, I'm not saying that the FBI
has that wrong. I probably don't have a lot, but
with most of these people, I'm like looking up just
to see, hey, has anything happened between nineteen eighty one,

(42:28):
and now that would like stand out. The only record
I could find on this guy was like a dui.
So you can see a lot was happening in nineteen
eighty one. Lots of men are coming on their radar
for nefarious reasons. But then comes nineteen eighty two. That's
when someone comes on their radar for writing a song.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Okay, a song feels like a crime.

Speaker 4 (42:52):
Tricky first, I know, and I love that I still
have first with you, Like I just hate that it's
this because this song will make your skin crawl. So
in nineteen eighty two, there is this student at Washington
State University who wrote a song called I Don't Want

(43:12):
to Go to Jail. And this song had been printed
in a program promoting a rugbeaking. And I have the lyrics,
but like, I hope I'm doing a good job at
pretending I'm okay, I'm like starting to get really sick
and lose my voice, and so if you don't mind,
I'm actually I planned on reading it, but I'm gonna
have you read it instead.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Oh, this is like a proper song. Okay they printed Yeah, Okay, stop,
I can't Ashley, We've talked about this before. You have
me read some of the most horrific things on these episodes.
This might take the cake the cake. I don't want
to go to jail. I don't want to go to jail.
I met a girl and I really had to know her.

(43:52):
Only a few ways I could really show her. I
built a fire and threw her up on top, and
as I walked away, she began to snap, crackle, and pop.
Put her in the bathtub, threw in the radio, and
as I turned away, she began to glow. Had her
over for dinner. Put glass in her food. As she

(44:13):
began to choke, the blood really spewed. Jabbed a knife
in her uterine wall. Now she can't have any children
at all. Reached down her throat and I pulled out
some veins, cracked her skull like an egg, and poured
out her brains. You guys, I'm only like halfway through.

Speaker 4 (44:31):
It keeps going.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
I took a fork and stuck it in her eye.
Now she can't laugh, and by god, she can't even cry.
I took an axe and nipped off all her toes.
I took all ten of them and stuffed them up
her nose. I took barbed wire and wrapped it round
her throat, threw her in the river just to see
if she would float h I tied her down and

(44:56):
plucked out both of her eyes, smeared her with honey,
and left her for the flies. Threw her in the oven,
turned it onto broil, and when I opened the door,
she was stuck to the coils. Broke both her legs,
and I poured out all the marrow, cut off big
hunks of her flesh, and fed them to the sparrows.

(45:18):
Now I'm in jail, and I love her oh so much.
I kept her hand so we could keep in touch.
And then there's a little note at the bottom that
says repeat as many times as intelligence permits.

Speaker 4 (45:35):
So the thing is this? I even so this guy
apparently it wasn't just him that wrote it. He said
it was him and a group of his buddies.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Oh w hey, why why write it? And then also
this was published advertising like a sports game at the school?
What happened here?

Speaker 4 (45:57):
Oh yeah, how are you?

Speaker 1 (45:58):
Like?

Speaker 4 (45:58):
You know, we're just gonna skip over the national anthem,
Let's print this instead, like the eighties were a lawless time,
and I'm not gonna say this guy's name. We looked
into him, no criminal record. Detective Nichols says that this
was just this dude being a dumb.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
Kid, a really dumb kid.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
I agree. I mean, like how you have to like,
I don't know, but anyways, this guy is one of
the few people who actually picked up the phone and
talked to us for this episode. He's like, listen, this
is a really stupid thing to do. We did it
as a joke when I was like drunk with my buddies,
and I guess he says that like writing rubye songs
is some kind of tradition and normally they're more sexual

(46:37):
in nature, so I don't know if like that was
like a justification for what is happening on this page.
But he in the end, like to us, he claimed
that he didn't even know who Kristin David was. And
by the way, that even though this came on police's radar,
I know it did, they never actually spoke to him,
so they must not have taken this very seriously. Now,

(46:59):
even though they never questioned him, there was a women's
rights group who wrote an article on the paper basically
calling him out for all of this.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Okay, but I'm kind of stuck on the fact that
police never even so much as talk to this guy,
Like that seems kind of bonkers.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
I know, he even claims so. I mean, he told
us he regrets writing the song, but he says that
he didn't even know that his name had been brought up,
because I mean, that's how much. It's not like they
asked a round about him or anything. Like it never
even made it back to him that this song made
it to police about this crime. But like, I can't
help but see a lot of parallels in this song
to the FBI profile to what we know about the

(47:37):
crime scene.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
I feel like you, I hope you heard it well
he was reading the lyrics like there are like very
direct parallels.

Speaker 4 (47:44):
Right, and like sure, okay, the FBI says that he
didn't do anything. You know, he doesn't have a criminal record.
When we look it up now, all finding good, But
like you know, my question is, like, who are these
people he wrote it with, Like I bet they would
fit square into this profile too. I have a a
lot of questions still about this, but I seem to
be the only one. Now there are more people like

(48:07):
this kid who pop up for weird reasons, but who
are either deemed not even worth looking into, or who
quickly get ruled out. I mean, the case file is
full of them. But there is one guy who Detective
Nichols is still suspicious of all these years later, a
man named Harry Hamptman. Harry was originally arrested for the

(48:29):
sexual assault and murder of a young girl in nineteen
sixty eight, but he escaped the facility that he was
being held at and remained on the run for years,
and he lived in a remote tabin in Hell's Canyon, Oregon,
which is like two hours from Lewis and Idaho. Now
when he was on the loose, they ended up finding
out that he committed several violent crimes in the area,

(48:51):
including abducting a woman. And then he finally gets re
arrested in nineteen ninety three, like he was on the
run for a long time, So Detective Nichols has always
wondered if he could have abducted Kristen, taken her to
his remote cabin hours away from Lewiston, killed her, and
dismembered her there. Detective Nichols even says that Harry was
somewhat of a career student, like he would go to

(49:11):
various colleges and take classes when he could, presumably even
while he was in hiding, so it's possible that he
could have gone to the University of Idaho where he
saw kristin. We also know that he was a big
game hunter and previously had driven vans, although it's still
unknown if he actually drove a brown van at the
time of Kristen's disappearance. And unfortunately he's not around to

(49:35):
even ask anymore. As much as Detective Nichols was suspicious
of him, he died by suicide in nineteen ninety four.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
So I have to ask, because it's kind of the
guy who brought us here. Does Lance Foss ever show
up in any of Kristen's case files?

Speaker 4 (49:50):
So that's what's so interesting to me. No, Lance, if
you didn't listen to last week, he is this guy
that everyone talks about in connection with a lot of
the crimes that were happening in this area, disappearances, murders.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Which is like Kristen gets lumped into, and a lot
of them.

Speaker 4 (50:05):
He is not mentioned once in what I've seen, which really,
at least for me, confirms that she's probably not related
to the other murders and disappearances. In the valley. But
for some reason, like you said, she keeps getting lumped in,
and I think that can cause real harm, you know,
like maybe someone hasn't come forward with information because the
public has tunnel vision or the public thinks like, oh,

(50:27):
police must be thinking this is right. They don't think
necessarily that he did anything to Kristin. But that is
not to say that her case isn't connected to others.
Maybe we're just looking at the wrong suspect. Dismemberment is
a very specific method. What was done to her body

(50:47):
in death was specific, and this does not feel like
something that just happened as a one off out of
the blue. There are other dismemberment cases in the Pacific
Northwest area around this prime frame. But what if one
part of the profile that's wrong is the part about
this guy being local. And I know there was a

(51:08):
part in the profile that suggests like maybe he like
like knew the area for a little bit. Like what
I think is like, what if he was local for
a minute, say like stationed nearby, but he moved around.
Because recently I've been looking into a former military man.
His specific job in the military was as a medical
lab specialist and it seems like wherever this guy traveled,

(51:32):
dismembered women showed up Colorado, South Carolina, Idaho, Wisconsin, Illinois, Georgia,
dismembered with precision plastic bags, often left around water, not
always specific ways in which the women were killed before
they were dismembered. I'm not going to go into detail

(51:53):
on the other cases because I can't say one hundred
percent that they are all connected or connected to this man. Yeah,
but I find it very interesting that this happy looking
family man on Facebook in twenty twenty five was actually
charged with murder on a military base in his early
years while stationed overseas. He got off on a technicality

(52:16):
and continued to serve and be transferred all over the country.
And by the way, if you look this guy up
the way I've been looking up other people to look
at his criminal record, there is not one that pops up.
Which that's the part I can't wrap my head around.
I don't know why none of this is showing up,
even though I know other agencies have talked to him.
And also I found it really interesting that years down

(52:37):
the line, his son was later convicted of a brutal
murder and he had some choice things to say about
his dad and his upbringing. And listen, I know I
am being vague, but it is because I can't say
much yet. I usually don't bring all of our crime
junkies in until way later in the investigation, but I
actually want to try something new. You guys have proven

(52:58):
to be an invaluable resource, and all of your eyes
and ears and brains combined is better than months of
my own heads down researching alone, which I'm still not stopping.
But here's what I need. I'm looking for more cases
that could fit into a similarm, cases that happened in
the seventies, eighties, nineties, maybe in the early two thousands.

(53:22):
We're looking for murdered women who were dismembered, found in
trash bags, and whose bodies might have showed signs of mutilation,
specifically cases where body parts were cut off in addition
to the dismemberment, or cases where even after the remains
of the victims were recovered, parts of the limb or
part of the victim was still missing. The case you're

(53:43):
thinking of might just fit some or even all of
what I mentioned, But if you know of one in
your area that is close to what I said, please
email tips at Audiochuck dot com. There is a very
real possibility that Kristen's case isn't connected to the military
man I'm looking into. But whoever killed her, I have
to believe that he did it before or after, and

(54:05):
whether Kristin is connected or not, people are looking into
her case. Detective Nichols told us that testing led by
the FBI continues to this day, especially on those newspapers,
and they wouldn't hate a helpful tip to nudge their
investigation along. So if you know something specifically about Kristen's
murder or someone you think might be worth looking into,

(54:26):
reach out to the FBI office in Salt Lake City.
Remember the profile, he would have been young, sounds like
maybe a bit of a narcissist, and there are likely
other murders that have popped up wherever he goes. Maybe
he owned a late model vehicle, Maybe he has or
had a brown van. Maybe he lets something slip and

(54:48):
you're remembering it now as I'm talking. If that's you,
reach out to the FBI and let us know too.
This is a story we're actively following and reporting, so
we would love to hear from you again. That is
tips at audio Chuck dot com and we'll have the
FBI's contact info in the episode notes. You can find

(55:20):
all the source material for this episode on our website,
Crime Junkie podcast dot com, and.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
You can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

Speaker 4 (55:27):
And we're gonna be back next week with the brand
new episode. But we have some good for you, so
stick around for the good segment. All right, Britt, we've

(55:57):
had quite the month, lots of context. I am ready
for a little bit of good news.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
You've got it.

Speaker 4 (56:04):
Oh, this one looks long.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
It's a good one, I think.

Speaker 4 (56:06):
Okay, I'm excited.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Hi Britton Ashley. My name is Lessandra and I just
started binging Crime Junkie four weeks ago. I'm almost done.
We're welcome and I need to join the fan club
for more episodes. Yes you do, and yesterday you could
have saved my life. I'm eighteen years old and an
avid user of social media like many other teenagers. I
met a guy i'll refer to him as Jerry on

(56:29):
a dating app a few weeks ago and we hit
it off. Jerry was a year older than me, lives
in the same city, and even shared a common major
for college communications. He asked to meet me at a
bar and said he'd be a few minutes late because
of a snowstorm. I'm from Canada, so our legal drinking
age is younger. I sat there for about a half
hour until he texted that his car had spent out,

(56:50):
but he would be there asap. I've been sitting at
the bar waiting for him since the bar slash restaurant
wouldn't let us get a table without everyone there. A
girl came up to me and we started talking. She
commented on my rings and asked about my taste and music.
A classic girl trying to figure out if you're a
lesbian move, which I'm by. So we talked for another
hour before she invited me to go back to her
place and hang out. Jerry had texted me about ten

(57:12):
minutes before and said he wouldn't be able to make
it because of the snow and damage to his car.

Speaker 4 (57:16):
Oh my god, is this like a fireball situation all
over again? Canada edition.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
Since it was a girl, I was totally comfortable and
had my guard down. Right as we were about to
leave together, some guy a few seats down ordered a
fireball shit and my heart stopped your episode on the
Fireball abductions. Immediately came flighting back to me and I
immediately made an excuse to go to the bathroom. I

(57:42):
waited for about fifteen minutes, and when I walked out,
she was gone. It could have been a perfectly innocent
flirting girl, but because of you, I didn't take that chance.
I wanted to share in case other LGBTQ plus girlies
wonder if these traffickers caught onto women's suspicions, but realized
that another girl would have our guard down. So thank
you Ashley and Britt for giving me the information I

(58:04):
need to keep myself safe. You guys are amazing.

Speaker 4 (58:07):
Ooh, full body chill, Like.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
This is already a story that I feel like we
see a lot in like the messages that come through,
like oh I remember this episode and like I feel
like it kept me safe.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
But for it to be a specific one fireball.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Shot was just like I stopped in my tracks.

Speaker 4 (58:22):
That's wild. And again, like some people would be like,
oh my god, nothing happened. That's the point. I don't care.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Whatever it was.

Speaker 4 (58:27):
I hope, well, I hope nothing ever happens. I hope
we run out of episodes.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
A thousand percent. I love it.

Speaker 4 (58:35):
Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production, So what do
you think, Chuck? Do you approve

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