UPDATE: Ellen Greenberg

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:20):
High Cram Junkies. I wanted to bring you some updates
on an old case. Lots of you are hitting us
up telling us that you're watching the new documentary that
just came out on Ellen Greenberg and asking for our thoughts.
We covered it in depth with tons of original reporting
back in twenty twenty one, and two hundred episodes later,
we're bringing it back, but with a twist. At the

(00:41):
end of the episode, You're gonna hear from Audio Chuck's
own Nina Shutzman, who reported on this case. She's going
to get you up to speed on everything that has
happened between us airing that episode and this new doc
because just because we hit published on an episode does
not mean we stop following a case. This is the
perfect catch up before you dive into the documentary, and
I want to hear from you after the facts of

(01:02):
the case in the doc are pretty much the same
as we reported on back then, but there's some interesting
insights into Ellen's life in the weeks and hours leading
up to her death, and you get to hear from
some key witnesses who are in the apartment complex that day.
Does it change your opinion at all? Comment? If you're
in the fan club so we can talk about it.
Hit us up on social I want to know your opinion.

(01:23):
So let's get into it. This is the mysterious death
of Ellen Greenberg. It's late in the afternoon on Wednesday,

(02:03):
January twenty six, twenty eleven, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Sam Goldberg
is getting back to his apartment after a trip to
the gym after a month of snowstorms. The city is
in the midst of yet another blizzard and people aren't
leaving their homes unless they absolutely have to. But Sam
didn't need to go outside to get some exercise because
there's a fitness center on site in the Venice Lofts,

(02:25):
this luxury condo building where he lives with his fiance,
twenty seven year old Ellen Ray Greenberg. So when he's
done working out, he goes back to his apartment and
goes to open the front door like normal, but according
to Sam, there's like this swing bar lock like a
door latch, secured from the inside, so he can't get
him even though he's got his key. So he tries

(02:46):
calling and texting his fiance, who should be inside, but
she doesn't respond and she doesn't open the door, so
eventually he says he just forces the door open. At
around six thirty pm nine to one one day, Dispatch
gets a call from Sam. Here is the actual audio
from that call, which was provided to us by private

(03:07):
investigator Tom Brennan.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Oh I got chicking out. I just I just walk
into my pipe life, she answers, on the floor with
blood everywhere? Is the forty six one Flat Rock Road?
Please come, oh, one Flat Rock Road?

Speaker 4 (03:25):
Is this a house or apart?

Speaker 3 (03:27):
Oh? No, well no, it's the apartment. What apartment? Please hurry?
Please be bleeding from I don't know. I can't tell her,
she does.

Speaker 5 (03:38):
You have to calm yourself down in order to get
you somehow.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking
at her right now. She I don't. I can't see anything,
shouldn't there's nothing broken, she'd bleed.

Speaker 5 (03:50):
Ellie you don't know where she's bleeding from. Cam's coming from.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
I think her head. I think she hit her head.
I think everywhere, everywhere.

Speaker 5 (04:00):
She might have fallen. You know what happened.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
She may have slipped his blood on the on the table.
Her her face is a little purple.

Speaker 5 (04:07):
Okay, hold on for rescue for her.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
Stay on the phone.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
From that note forty six one flat rock road, please
hurry forty.

Speaker 5 (04:29):
Six one flat wap.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yes, that's wrong. Like I just I went downstairs to
go work out. I came back up, the door was lashed.
My fiance's inside. She wasn't she wasn't answering. So after
about a half hour, I decided to break it down.
I see her now, just on the floor with blood
like she's not she's not responding.

Speaker 5 (04:48):
Okay, she breathing. I look at her chest. I need
you to calm down. I need you to look at
her chest.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
It really I don't think she I really don't think.

Speaker 5 (04:56):
She listened to me. Someone's on the way. Look at
her chest. She fed on her.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Back, on her back.

Speaker 5 (05:02):
We'll get her chest and tell me if it's going
up and down, up and down.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
I don't see her moving.

Speaker 5 (05:07):
Okay, do you know how to do CPR.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
I don't.

Speaker 5 (05:10):
Okay, I'm gonna tell you what to do, okay until
they get there. I want you to keep her.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
Phones good Hello, yeah, hi, okay, welling to.

Speaker 5 (05:17):
Do CPR with me over the phone.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
So they I have to write.

Speaker 5 (05:21):
Okay to get her flat on her back, bear her chest, okay,
want okay, steel down by her side?

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Oh my god, allie, please listen.

Speaker 5 (05:32):
You can't freak out because.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Okay, I'm trying to try. Her shirt won't come off
into the zipper. Right. She stabs herself where she's selling
a knife?

Speaker 5 (05:42):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (05:42):
No, her knight's sticking out. What is it nice? Sticking
out of her hut? Oh?

Speaker 5 (05:48):
She stands herself, I guess.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
So I don't know where she's fell on it. I
don't know.

Speaker 5 (05:52):
Okay, Well, don't touch it, okay.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
So I just just let her do here? Now, I mean,
what do I do?

Speaker 6 (05:57):
No?

Speaker 5 (05:57):
I mean you can't. It's the nice as at her chest.
Want to be kind of hard for you to d
CPR at this time.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
Oh no, oh my goodness.

Speaker 5 (06:04):
Okay, police the shop reader seven seven? Yes they are, you, said,
forty six year old one flint right right, yes, okay
someone's on the way and the knife is still inside
winch or what? The knife is still inside of her?

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yes, I didn't take it out because a chest or
what air is it? It looks like it's trying. It
looks like it's right in her heart.

Speaker 5 (06:28):
Okay, someone's on the way out here, Okay, just get
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
Oh my god. Old, she's twenty.

Speaker 5 (06:34):
Seven, twenty seven. It's no sign of life at all.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
I don't no, please, don't be what been trying to
her arm? And to me?

Speaker 5 (06:42):
She was fine to pain she.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
Llie, she's not's not her arm and her hands are
still warm. I don't know if that means. But it's
blood every I mean, I know, but you can't.

Speaker 5 (06:54):
And the knife is still inside of her? How far
can you see how far it went in?

Speaker 3 (06:57):
It looks pretty deep. Okay, three, and it's a long night.

Speaker 5 (07:02):
Don't touch anything. Don't touch anything.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
I'm not touching anything. I can't believe this though. It
was with her. Yeah, we're the only ones here.

Speaker 5 (07:12):
And she ran in the door shut.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
No, no, I I I went downstairs to work out,
and when I came back up, the door was lashed
like it was you know, it wasn't like it was,
you know, it was like locked from the inside and
I'm yelling and I saw it was some yell. No no, no,
no no.

Speaker 5 (07:32):
It's no sign of a break in.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
No, no kind of a break in it all. I
mean there will be when you get here, because I
had to break the lash but to get in.

Speaker 5 (07:40):
Okay, forty six year old flat rock and this is
a house.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
Right, it's an apartment, fire record apartment. Okay, Oh my god,
oh my god. All right, thank you, thank.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
You, According to an investigation report from the Philadelphia Medical
Examiner's Office, when first responders arrived, they find Ellen in
the kitchen, which is just inside the entrance of the apartment. Now.
Sam told nine one one that she was laying on
her back, but apparently she's more like sitting on the floor,

(08:12):
kind of slumped against the lower kitchen cabinets. She's fully
dressed in a zip ap, hooty t shirts, sweatpants, and
ug boots. She's still holding a white towel in her
left hand and her right hand is closed in a
loose fist, and just to the right of her, there's
a pair of eyeglasses on the floor. There are rips
and tears in her shirts that match up with multiple

(08:33):
stab wounds on her chest, and like Sam said, a
knife is still lodged in one of them, a little
bit to the left of center of her chest. There's
blood on her neck and head, on her hand, on
her clothes, even on the tops of her boots, and
on the sole of her right boot. It's clear to
the paramedics and police that nothing can be done to

(08:55):
save her, so Ellen is pronounced dead at the scene
at six pm. When investigators take a closer look around,
they notice that on the kitchen counter next to the sink,
there's a knife set, you know, one of those blocks
that comes with some utensils, and basically it's turned on
its side with two knives from the sets spilled over
into the sink. And based on the scene, it appears

(09:17):
that at the time, right before Ellen died, she had
been making a fruit salad, because, according to reporting by
Stephanie Farr for the Philadelphia Inquirer, there's a strainer on
the counter filled with like blueberries and an orange which
seemed to be freshly.

Speaker 7 (09:31):
Sliced, so she could have been handling the knives as well.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Right now, there are a couple of drops of blood
on the countertop above her body, but it doesn't look
like there's any blood on the knives in the sink.
In fact, the blood is pretty much contained to just
that corner of the kitchen where she's like sumped over.
As investigators look around the two bedroom apartment, they notice
that everything is clean and well kept, nothing seems to

(09:57):
be out of place, and it doesn't look like anything's
been stolen because there are still valuables in the apartment,
including three laptops, Ellen's purse, and her engagement ring, which
according to the family's PI Tom Brennan, she wasn't wearing
at the time. Homicide detectives from the Philadelphia Police Department
don't see any signs of a struggle, not in the

(10:17):
kitchen or anywhere else. According to the m's report, the
inside lock on the front door, which again is like
a common latch door guard, is broken, with the screws
on the door loose. It says, quote obviously forced in
when in a locked position end quote.

Speaker 7 (10:33):
Which that would make sense because Sam already said that
he had to force his way in right right, So
it's not like it's an intruder. It was just Sam
trying to get into his place.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, and there's only one other way in or out
of the apartment, and that's this sliding door that leads
to a little balcony type thing. I mean, it's really
more like a ledge with a railing because Ellen and
Sam's apartment is on the sixth floor. So again, even
though they have that, it's not likely someone got in
that way. Plus, and even if you have a spider
man like scaling the place, there was actually fresh snow outside.

(11:04):
Remember this is a blizzard, and so there's snow on
the balcony ledge that hasn't been disturbed. But there's no tracks,
there's no footprints, nothing. Now, back inside the apartment, on
a nightstand in the main bedroom, investigators find three medications
prescribed to Ellen. They find xanax, kalanapin, and ambient and
they've all been prescribed by a psychiatrist named Ellen Berman.

(11:27):
Police also find a notebook in Ellen's purse where she
had to track her state of mind while taking the
various medications. Now, the last entry is from ten days earlier,
although I'm not sure what it said because it's not
in any of the reports. An investigator from the Medical
Examiner's office gets to the apartment around eight thirty pm,
two hours after Ellen is pronounced dead, and he notices

(11:49):
that she doesn't have any injuries on her hands or
her wrists or her.

Speaker 7 (11:55):
Forearms, so basically no defensive wounds, right.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Nothing that looks like defensive wounds to them anyway.

Speaker 7 (12:01):
Okay, And obviously they called time of death at what
she said, six point forty mm hmm. But can they
determine when she had actually died, Well.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
The report doesn't say anything about the potential time of death,
but I mean, based on what Sam tells detectives, which
is that he last saw Ellen alive at four forty
five before going to the gym, and then again we
know he's breaking down the door at six thirty. We're
looking at like a small window of time.

Speaker 7 (12:25):
Yeah, like less than two hours.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah, and honestly, probably even less than that, because you
have to imagine again he was like banging on the
door and texting her and calling her, he says, before then,
So it could be even smaller than that. So police
want to know everything Ellen did leading up to that
small window, and what they learned is that she had
gotten home earlier than usual that day from her job
as a first grade teacher, they had gotten off early

(12:47):
because of the snow. Basically the entire like Philadelphia Public
School District had been dismissed around noon that day. And
according to what Sam tells them right there at the
scene when they first pull him aside to get his story,
Ellen was home when he went down to the fitness
center at around four forty five pm, and he says
that he stayed there for like half hour or maybe
forty five minutes, and then he went back upstairs where

(13:10):
he found himself locked out. He tells investigators, you know,
he knocked on the door. He called and texted her
to let him in, but she didn't answer, and that's
when he knocked down the door and called nine one one.

Speaker 4 (13:21):
Well.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Police had found Ellen's cell phone in the master bathroom,
and so they decided to check her activity log to
see if it matches Sam's story. Though she had sent
her last text around three forty seven pm to a
friend of hers, the police do see the incoming missed
calls and texts from Sam, who sent her nine messages

(13:45):
over a half hour from five thirty two to five
fifty four pm. They're actually detailed in the investigative report
I mentioned in Britt, I'm gonna have do you read
them for us?

Speaker 7 (13:55):
Okay? And they're each like these really short one line texts,
but I'll just read them in order. Okay, Hello, open
the door. What are you doing? I'm getting pissed. Hello,
you better have an excuse?

Speaker 8 (14:11):
What the fuck?

Speaker 9 (14:13):
Ah?

Speaker 7 (14:15):
You have no idea?

Speaker 2 (14:17):
So on its phase, Sam's story seems to be checking out,
at least in regard to him texting her, but police
want to talk to other people, namely Ellen's neighbors. Venice
Lofts is generally a safe place to live. I mean
it has surveillance cameras, there's a security guard in the
lobby by the main entrance, and residents use a key

(14:37):
card system. Neighbors of the couple tell police that they
didn't hear any commotion that day, no loud noises, no arguments, nothing.
So when looking at all of this, this is what
investigators see. Ellen has no defensive wounds, and she was
reportedly alone in the apartment with the door locked from

(14:58):
the inside. By that very night. Police come to their
conclusion Ellen died by suicide.

Speaker 7 (15:06):
Wait has the medical examiner even done an autopsy at
this point? I mean, I at least have not heard
of many suicides where the person has multiple stab wounds.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
No, so the autopsy has not been conducted at this point.

Speaker 7 (15:19):
So did they find a note or anything that made
them like double down on this whole suicide theory.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Nope, there was no note, And at this point it
seems like all police know is that Ellen had been
prescribed anti anxiety medications. But again, I don't know what
that journal of hers said, if it had something in
it that made them kind of like go down this path.
I don't know what specifically Sam told police about Ellen's
state of mind in this day or leading up to it,

(15:44):
But what I know is that, based on the medical
examiner's report, Sam did stay at the scene with some
of his family members and friends after finding Ellen, and
at some point police do take him down to the
station for a more formal interview, which, by the way,
he has a criminal defense attorney with him while he
gives a statement. And it's around that time that Sam's

(16:07):
dad calls Ellen's parents, Josh and Sandy Greenberg, and as
Sandy told us, this is the moment their entire world
went dark.

Speaker 10 (16:18):
He said, something terrible has happened to Ellie. And I said, well,
what do you mean. He says, well, we don't know.
I said, well, where's the ambulance? And there's a long pause,
and I was trying to find my voice because Josh
wasn't standing right next to me, he was in another room.

(16:38):
And I'm like, Josh, pick up the phone, pick up
the phone, pick up the phone. And they said there
is no ambulance.

Speaker 9 (16:46):
And I still didn't register with me.

Speaker 10 (16:49):
We really didn't even know what happened other than they're
telling us our child is.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Gone, as if the death of your only child is
not heartbreaking enough. Ellen's parents can't even get to their
daughter that night. It is snowing too hard for them
to make the two hour drive to Philadelphia from where
they are in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Early the next morning, this
is now January twenty seventh, Josh and Sandy speak with

(17:14):
the Medical Examiner's office over the phone. Sandy tells investigators
that she last spoke with Ellen yesterday at around seven am,
and Ellen was on her way to work. They had
a normal conversation and Ellen didn't give the impression that
anything was wrong, But Sandy and Josh also say that
they knew their daughter was struggling with something. Recently, Ellen

(17:36):
had been feeling anxious. She'd been feeling insecure and unsure
of herself, which was not at all like the bright,
hard working young woman her family knew her to be.

Speaker 9 (17:47):
I didn't know what was wrong with my daughter. I
didn't know something was different.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Not long before her death, Ellen had told her parents
that she wanted to go home to Harrisburg.

Speaker 7 (17:57):
Like for a visit or something more permanent, like moving back.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, that isn't totally clear, but she did tell her
parents that her wanting to come home had nothing to
do with Sam. She actually said it was because of work.
And Ellen had been teaching for a few years at
this point, and as much as she loved the kids,
she said that she just wasn't happy at the school.
She was stressed out, she was overwhelmed, which I know
enough teachers to know that the way they're treated is

(18:24):
a true crime story in its own right. So yeah,
I get it.

Speaker 7 (18:27):
Uh yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Now, Ellen's parents didn't want her to just up and
leave her first big real job. Her dad was worried
that it would mess up her future career prospects, so
Ellen made a deal with them and agreed to see
a psychiatrist at doctor Berman before making any major decisions,
and they figured, you know, this way, whatever she ends
up doing, she will at least have talked it out

(18:49):
with someone and like really given it some serious thought.

Speaker 7 (18:53):
So if she moved, though, what would that mean for
her and Sam? Like, was she planning on leaving him
or no?

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Like I said, she said that this was all work related.
So despite telling her parents that she wanted to go
back to Harrisburg, there's no indication that Ellen was planning
to call off her wedding. I mean, it was still
set for that upcoming August, literally having saved the date.
Cards had gone out in the mail days before this incident,
and Ellen had her wedding dress and everything. Ellen's parents

(19:20):
tell the Medical Examiner's office that the relationship between Ellen
and Sam seemed good to them. They had no concerns.
They didn't know if any physical or verbal abuse. I mean,
Ellen certainly had never mentioned anything to them, and Josh
and Sandy had even taken the couple on vacation to
Saint Kitts just a month earlier in December twenty ten,
And as the Medical Examiner's report goes on to say,

(19:42):
Josh and Sandy said that as far as they know,
Ellen had never attempted to take her own life and
had never even expressed any thoughts of making that decision.
Although even though that's in the report, Sandy says that
now she doesn't remember the topic of dying by suicide
even coming up during this conversation.

Speaker 9 (20:00):
To say this was out of left field, that unexpected
would be a gross understatement.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
But it's about to get even more bizarre. Doctor Marlon Osborne,
an associate medical examiner, starts Ellen's autopsy at around nine
am that day, and what he finds changes the course
of the investigation. As he's conducting the autopsy, doctor Osborne
sees that she doesn't just have multiple stab wounds on

(20:26):
her chest. According to the autopsy report, there are ten
more stab wounds on the back of her neck, another
in her abdomen, and a big gash on the back
of her head.

Speaker 7 (20:39):
Wait, and no one at the scene saw any of
the wounds to the back of her body. What?

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, it appears that way because there's no mention of
them in the initial scene report. Now, some of the
wounds are shallow, like really shallow, just point two centimeters deep,
which for comparison is basically the size of like a
pencil point, and that actually includes most of the wounds
on the back of her neck, but others are much deeper.

(21:06):
The final blow, the one that actually killed her, was
the stab wound to Ellen's chest, where the knife is
still embedded four inches deep. All together, doctor Osborne finds
nineteen stab wounds and the large gash. And here's what's
extra interesting. The knife in Ellen's chest has a five
inch serrated blade with a five inch handle and it's

(21:28):
from the knife set in their kitchen. And that's super
confusing to me because in the autopsy report, doctor Osborne
describes all of the wounds, even the final blow, as
having smooth edges. What Yeah, But there's something else the
doctor notices during the autopsy, mostly because they're impossible to miss.
There are a bunch of bruises on Ellen's body, on

(21:52):
her arms and her legs and her wrists, her abdomen,
and they're all in different stages of heat.

Speaker 7 (22:00):
So that means that the bruises aren't from just the
time she died. They're from a bunch of different times,
like over the course of days or weeks exactly.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
The Emmy finishes up the autopsy at around eleven am
and he makes his ruling. Ellen's death is a homicide.
And this is probably not welcome news to the police because,
as court records show, they had already allowed the crime
scene to be compromised beyond repair. You see, the same

(22:35):
day as the autopsy, a relative of Sam's had called
the Venice loft's property manager and asked if they could
go inside the apartment and get some stuff for Sam
for Ellen's funeral, you know, like close photos things like that.
According to his statement from the property manager, she checked
with police to make sure that this would be okay,
and they basically told her, well, there aren't any restrictions,

(22:58):
it's not a crime scene, so yeah, it's far do
whatever what. Yeah, But the property manager like pushes back
a little like like are you sure, even to the
point where she's like, it didn't seem right to have
people in there when there was literally still blood all
over the kitchen.

Speaker 5 (23:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
So she asked police, like what do I do about that?
And they told her that, you know, that's not our
department's responsibility. Like basically, people have to handle cleaning up
crime scenes on their own. So they recommended a cleaning
service called crime Scene cleanup.

Speaker 7 (23:24):
Pretty straightforward cool.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
Before letting anyone in, the property manager had a video
recording made of the apartment, like basically the condition it
was in, as like legal protection for venice lofts against
claims of stolen items or damage. Then she booked the
service which sent people to do what they're hired to do.
They cleaned up a crime scene, and when they were done,
the property manager told Sam's relatives they could come in.

(23:50):
Here's Sandy Greenberg.

Speaker 8 (23:51):
Again, Sam's cousin and uncle went back into the apartment
and they removed Ellen's engagement m her handbag, the car keys,
her two computers, her cell phone.

Speaker 7 (24:06):
What why were they allowed to take all of Ellen's stuff?

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Well, so the property manager is in the apartment when
Sam's relatives are there. But even if she knew what
they were taking, which I don't even know if she did,
I don't think she could have done anything, Like there
are no police. They're saying like, hey, don't let them
take stuff, like they specifically knew they were coming in.

Speaker 7 (24:23):
Well and assuming like these are Sam's relatives, he sent
them maybe with a list like yeah, they're in getting
what they're supposed to get.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, And she's the property manager why argue, yeah, she'd
like this isn't her job to worry about this. She's
just making sure nothing happens to the apartment. So, according
to CBS Philadelphia, when police realize that they're dealing with
a homicide, they get a search warrant and go back
to the apartment to look for evidence on Friday, January
twenty eighth. But by that point, I mean they're looking

(24:50):
over a crime scene that was literally professionally cleaned and sanitized,
and items that could be really important have been removed
by the family of the victim's fiance.

Speaker 7 (25:01):
I mean, yeah, they're practically looking at like a model
apartment right now.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Now. January twenty eighth also happens to be the day
of Ellen's funeral and Sam's birthday. Ellen's family is Jewish,
and traditionally, in the Jewish faith, burials take place as
soon as possible after a death. Her service is held
at Bethel Temple Sanctuary in Harrisburg. Ellen's cousin, rerhts Schwab,
told us that he will never forget that day.

Speaker 11 (25:29):
During the funeral, Ellen's father made a speech and announced
to the audience that for those who haven't heard the
Philadelphia police just determined that the manner of death was
in fact a homicide. It was like hushed whispers and
everyone staring wide eyed at each other. I'm sure what
to say.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
After the funeral, everyone goes back to Ellen's grandmother's home,
and it seems like, based on everything our reporter Nina
learned from interviewing the family, this is where the relationship
between Ellen's parents and Sam and his family starts to
really fracture. At one point, Josh, her dad, says to Sam,

(26:08):
you do realize that you're the prime suspect.

Speaker 12 (26:12):
What was Sam's reaction when Josh said to him, you
know you're the prime suspect.

Speaker 8 (26:18):
He started crying.

Speaker 6 (26:19):
He was in one corner of the room, and he
moved over to his mother and she's comforting him.

Speaker 8 (26:26):
And he's caring.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
On After that exchange, the Goldbergs don't join Josh and
Sandy to sit shiva, which is a Jewish tradition that
takes place after the funeral when the family stays home
and people visit and comfort them. But the shiva for
Ellen hasn't even started before police start to downplay the
medical examiner's homicide determination. The day after the funeral, a

(26:48):
lieutenant tells the Philadelphia Inquirer that evidence had surfaced which
made suicide more likely, and that detectives are looking into
some quote mental issue that Ellen may have had.

Speaker 7 (27:01):
What is he even talking about? And I mean, don't
even get me started on the incredibly insensitive way to
speak about someone who might have been struggling with their
own mental health.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
He doesn't say specifically what he's talking about that's leading
him to this conclusion. What I do know from a
police report is that on that same day, Saturday, Sam's uncle, James,
who at the time was a prominent Philadelphia attorney, wrought
detectives the laptops and cell phone that they had taken
from the condo. And by this time, investigators had spoken

(27:31):
to Ellen's psychiatrist, doctor Berman, and they subpoena her treatment records.
But doctor Berman told investigators that Ellen was a new
patient who had come in for like three recent sessions
after dealing with severe anxiety for a couple of months,
and Ellen had told doctor Berman that she was having
trouble at work, she was feeling pressured, she was feeling overwhelmed,

(27:52):
but she wasn't having thoughts of taking her own life.
And in those sessions, Ellen had never said anything bad
about Sam. She told doctor Berman that he was wonderful,
and the psychiatrist noted that Ellen smiled when she talked
about him. Ellen also had denied that Sam was verbally
or physically abusive. The psychiatrists prescribed Ellen medication, which she

(28:14):
was kind of uneasy about taking. She first tried zoloft
and then switched to a low dose of xanx, and
when those didn't work, doctor Burman put her on ambient
and kalanapin to just help her get some sleep. A
few weeks after her death in February, Ellen's toxicology report
comes back showing that she did have low doses of
kalanapin and trace amounts of ambient in her system, just

(28:36):
like she was supposed to, and the toxicology didn't show
any signs of the xanx or the zoloft, so she
wasn't mixing medications or over medicating. But when investigators look
into the medications that were in her system, both do
list suicidal thoughts and behaviors as potential side effects, which
only bolsters the police's theory that Ellen did this to herself,

(29:00):
and they think that even more when some of the
physical evidence comes back. According to an article on pen
live dot com, an analysis of the blood stains on
the knife and Ellen's clothing only turn up her DNA.

Speaker 7 (29:13):
Okay, but none of that explains how Ellen could have
stabbed herself in the back of the neck and head
so many times.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
So I guess the theories that she just reached around
and did it. I mean, I haven't seen anything showing
that the angles of Ellen's wounds are like one hundred
percent physically impossible for a person to self inflict. But
the angles aren't even really the main issue. Doctor Osborne
noted during the autopsy that there was a cut to
Ellen's dura, which is the protective covering around the spinal cord.

(29:43):
What he wasn't sure of is whether Ellen's spinal cord
itself had been injured, which is obviously a huge deal
because if the spinal cord was injured by the stab
wounds to the back of Ellen's neck, the question becomes
would she have been able to keep stabbing herself? Oh,
if she was incapacitated, then obviously someone else delivered that

(30:05):
final blow to her chest.

Speaker 9 (30:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (30:06):
I hadn't even considered that, So what did the police
do with that information?

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Well, according to the reporting by Stephanie Fahr, detectives suggest
hiring an outside neuropathologist to look at a portion of
Ellen's spinal cord and figure out the answers to those questions.
So doctor Osborne takes the spinal cord to doctor Lucy
Rourke Adams, a consultant for the Medical Examiner's office, and
doctor Osborne says that doctor Rourke Adams does a quick examination,

(30:32):
basically an informal thing, like you know, one doctor's saying
to another, hey, look at this and tell me what
you think.

Speaker 7 (30:37):
Like I would ask a coworker to prove read an
email for me. Yeah, I mean, if this is such
an important part of the case, why didn't they have
her do like a more formal, thorough official exam.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Well, doctor Osborne says that he leaves the decision of
what further testing needs to be done to the consultants.
So basically he's saying, like if doctor Rourke Adams didn't
suggest further testing, like that would be like he was
gonna show her and then she can decide, can I
tell on the spot do I need more?

Speaker 5 (31:04):
Right?

Speaker 7 (31:05):
Like she would look at it and be like, no,
there's gonna be an issue. I should do something more,
or yeah, it's not a big deal, let it go.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, And ultimately he says that doctor Rourke Adams did
not find any defect of the spinal cord. He says
that she does confirm that the dora was cut, and
while it's possible Ellen would have decreased sensation, she wouldn't
necessarily lose her motor function, so she.

Speaker 7 (31:28):
Would have or could have been like numb but still
able to move around and stab herself again potentially.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yeah, I mean, that's just what doctor Osborne says was
relaid to him by doctor Urk Adams. Now, according to
the Philadelphia Daily News, it's rare that the police department
disagrees with the medical examiner's office about someone's manner of death,
and not long after doctor Osborne's visit to doctor Rourke Adams,
a meeting is held in his office to discuss Ellen's case.

(31:56):
Two police officers are there along with doctor Osborne Hoorn,
the Chief Medical Examiner, Sam Gallino, and a representative from
the Philadelphia District Attorney's office. We don't know when exactly
this meeting took place, because, according to court records. Both
doctors Galino and Osborne say they don't remember. Doctor Galino

(32:17):
says that he's not sure who called the meeting, but
it wasn't him. Doctor Osborne says he thinks doctor Gallino
called it, and it doesn't seem to be officially documented anywhere.
The circumstances are just odd around this, and the reason
for the meeting is even weirder. It seems that this

(32:38):
group was brought together in an effort to change Ellen's
manner of death from homicide to suicide. What's even stranger
is that doctor Osborne says that up until that point,
he had never met with the police and the DA's
office to talk about changing someone's manner of death from

(32:58):
homicide to suicide. In this meeting, police say that they
have something interesting to share, which they say helps prove
Ellen's death has to be suicide. They tell doctor Osborne
that someone else was with Sam Goldberg when he forced
the door open and found Ellen dead in the kitchen.
On the night of Ellen's death, a man named Phil

(33:19):
was on duty as a security guard in the lobby
of the Venice Lofts, and, according to police, when Sam
couldn't get into the condo, he went downstairs and got Phil,
and Phil went back upstairs with him, and he was
there when Sam broke in.

Speaker 7 (33:34):
And how did police know this, Like, did Sam tell
him this information that night or did he tell them later.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
So it's not totally clear because we don't have access
to any of Sam's verbatim statements. But all we know
is at some point Sam told police that Phil was
with him when he found Ellen. Again, I don't know
if it's right there at the scene that night. I
don't know if it's later at the police station or what.

Speaker 7 (33:56):
But the information got conveyed to police at some point.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, and we know that through these records about this meeting.
But to detectives, this backs up Sam's story that Ellen
was alone in a locked apartment at the time she
was stabbed. Now, I don't know if doctor Osborne knew
about that third party witness being present before this meeting
with investigators. There's no mention about this Phil guy in
their earlier report from the Medical Examiner's office, So again

(34:20):
I would assume not, but I don't know for sure.
But within a week or so of this meeting, in
early March twenty eleven, doctor Osborne notifies the police department
that he is now declaring Ellen's manner of death a suicide.

Speaker 7 (34:35):
I guess I just don't understand. Like the evidence her body,
what you, as a medical examiner are supposed to be
going off of, told you it was murder. How can
you just change that based on some circumstantial stuff around
her case brought to you by the police, who this
isn't their job. It's your job to determine it.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, like you said, I feel like the most honest
answer is the one that you came to without any
outside influence. Wins. But I mean I have heard that
it's not just an autopsy that determines the manner of death, like,
for instance, if a person is found with a gunshot
wound to the head, like you might need the police
investigation to find out if it's a homicide or suicide.
But I'm not an emmy. I don't know.

Speaker 7 (35:15):
But there was already a ruling and then the police
were like, yeah, but what about this, and slid something
across the table.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, oh, I don't like this.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Now.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
For many of the people following Ellen's story, that's that
another tragedy in a city that's seen plenty of them.
But for the Greenbergs, who, by the way, find out
about this ruling being changed to suicide through media reports.
For them, this is just the beginning, because after their
daughter's death, the Greenbergs start hearing some disturbing things, like

(35:48):
maybe Sam and Ellen didn't have such a perfect relationship
after all.

Speaker 9 (35:53):
Over time, her friends told me that her relationship had
shames was Sam, Ellen, do you want to go have
Chinese tomorrow night? Let me talk to Sam? Ellen. Do
you want to go out tomorrow? See go basketball? Bann?
Let me talk to Sam. In other words, Sam was
in control and.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
That wasn't like that Ellen. Her parents knew. Josh and
Sandy had always admired how confident and gutsy their daughter was.

Speaker 9 (36:22):
Ellen was a leader and she accomplished things.

Speaker 10 (36:25):
She got two master's degrees while she was working all
that time.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Ellen met Sam, a TV producer for NBC Sports, on
a blind date back in two thousand and seven. They
were set up by a friend's mother, and Ellen's family
says that she was head over heels for him. They
moved in together after a couple of years of dating,
and when Sam proposed to Ellen in June twenty ten,
she was thrilled as far as Josh and Sandy knew,

(36:50):
Ellen was happy with Sam, But now they wondered what
was real, and they started thinking what if Ellen was
just using her job as an excuse for her anxiety,
a reason to come home. They were also faced with
what they perceived to be strange behavior by Sam and
his family after Ellen's death. They don't know why Sam's

(37:10):
uncle took Ellen's personal belongings out of the apartment. According
to Tom, the family's PI, the claim was that they
had taken the stuff for quote safe keeping, but Sam's
family didn't give Ellen's belongings to Josh and Sandy at
the funeral or even mention that they had them. And
the day after the funeral is when Sam's uncle brought
the laptops to police. And when the Greenbergs do finally

(37:33):
get their daughter's stuff back, they find something in Ellen's
purse that catches their attention. It's a gas station receipt
from the day Ellen died, literally hours before, at one
twenty six pm, And so they wonder why would Ellen
bother topping off her gas tank if she planned to
take her own life just a few hours later. Now,

(37:56):
Ellen had been telling everyone that she was stressed and
anxious because of work, and in fact, teachers were supposed
to turn in their students' grades on the very days
she died.

Speaker 7 (38:04):
Oh so she was like on deadline too.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, but when a new teacher takes over Ellen's first
grade class, she apparently finds everything in perfect order, like
lesson plans are ready to go, records are super organized,
which again doesn't mean that Ellen didn't feel overwhelmed or
anxious at work, but she seemed to be on top
of everything.

Speaker 7 (38:23):
Okay, but Ellen might not have been planning to do
anything when she gassed up her car. I mean, choosing
to take your own life can be a really impulsive decision.
And with the organized school work, just because she completed
it doesn't mean that it's didn't stress her out to
do it. I mean I get like that all the time.
Or maybe it was just one more sign that she
was getting her affairs in order, making sure, you know,

(38:45):
nothing was left undone for her kids. It could really
go either way.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yes, either way is absolutely possible. But as time passes,
Allan's parents uncover more details that they think called the
suicide ruling into serious question. There are just too many
loose ends too many things that don't make sense to them.
So the Greenbergs decide that if authorities won't help them
get to the bottom of things, they're gonna start their

(39:10):
own investigation.

Speaker 10 (39:12):
I didn't have it easy in the beginning. I had
a very rough time, but once I made up my
mind that I want my daughter's name cleared and I
need to I really like to know what happened.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
Eventually, Ellen's parents get copies of the autopsy, crime scene photos,
and the EMMYS investigation report, which they send to a
well known forensic pathologist. This guy named Cyril weck for
an independent review. Doctor Weckt shares his findings with the
family in January twenty twelve, a year after Ellen's death.

(39:47):
In his report, he notes that the multiple stab wounds
to the back of Ellen's neck and the lower head
were not likely self inflicted, especially the ones that were
in different directions. He also said is that victims of
suicide rarely stab themselves through their clothes. Overall, his opinion
is that Ellen's manner of death is quote strongly suspicious

(40:11):
of homicide end quote. So finally, a professional is validating
what Josh and Sandy have been thinking all along, and
the Greenbergs are hoping that doctor Weckt's report can help
get Ellen's case reopened, so they hire a lawyer to
help them move things along. In that spring, they get
a meeting with the Philadelphia DIA's office, but unfortunately nothing

(40:33):
comes of it. Eventually, that lawyer stops representing them, and
another lawyer joins their cause, Walter Cohen, a former Attorney
general in Pennsylvania, who takes the case pro bona. Their
PI Tom Brennan, who has twenty five plus years of
law enforcement expertise under his belt, also offers his service
for free, and it's Tom who raises the theory that

(40:53):
Ellen might have been killed in what's known as a
blitz attack. That's when a victim is caught by support
and doesn't have time to defend themselves, which Tom says
would explain Ellen's lack of defensive wounds. So, with their help,
Josh and Sandy file a public records request for the
police case file, but even though the case is considered closed,

(41:14):
Tom says police won't release the records. Instead, the Greenbergs
are allowed to go look at some records in the department,
but they can't make copies. They can't take photos, and truthfully,
they don't even really know what they're looking for. Over
the next few years, they hit roadblock after roadblock, and
then in twenty fifteen, a Philadelphia homicide prosecutor named Guy

(41:37):
DeAndrea agrees to take a look at Ellen's case file
after an acquaintance brings it to his attention. Guy is
in a unique position because he seems to be the
only person who's seen everything in the case file and
is willing to speak publicly about it, even though the
case was never officially assigned to him. He actually went

(41:57):
through the evidence thoroughly. And here's the guy from a
Facebook live Q and A that he did about Ellen's case.

Speaker 13 (42:04):
I can tell you from my experience as a homicide prosecutor,
it wasn't treated with the level that an investigation would
be treated if viewed by the authorities as a homicide
on scene. Why it wasn't with upwards of twenty stab
wounds and laceration to the head, I don't have a
good answer for that.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
We have a link to that Facebook live video on
our blog post for this episode, but I want to
go over a few points that he mentioned. So Guy
saw the surveillance footage from Venice lofts, which show the
lobby and it shows the corridor leading to the gym.
The only people who came and went around the time
of Ellen's death were other residents of the building, no strangers.

(42:46):
Video footage in Sam's key fob records verify that Sam
got to the fitness center around five pm that day
and was there for about thirty minutes before going back
up to the apartment. There's only surveillance in the common area,
so no one can see what happens in the sixth
floor hallway, but there is footage showing Sam when he
goes back down to speak with Phil, the security guard

(43:08):
at the front desk.

Speaker 7 (43:09):
And that's the guy that Sam said he was with
when he forced the door open and found Ellen. Right.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yes, but there's one problem, like a big problem. Sam's
story is not true. What according to Phil, When Sam
went downstairs, he did ask Phil for help getting into
his apartment, but Phil said he repeatedly told Sam he
couldn't help him, like it's against company policy, like not

(43:35):
gonna happen. Sam even told Phil that he might force
or kick the door in, and Phil warned him that, okay,
you can do that, but you're gonna be responsible for
any damage that you cause. And then Sam went back
upstairs by himself.

Speaker 7 (43:49):
I don't get it. What's the point of saying that
Phil was with you if he wasn't, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
In a declaration he gave, Phil says that he never
accompanied Sam upstairs, not for one single minute. The only
time Phil went upstairs was later with first responders, but
not with Sam. So no one was with Sam when
he found Ellen.

Speaker 7 (44:09):
And did Phil ever talk to the police about this?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
He did, and here's what he told them.

Speaker 13 (44:14):
According to Guy, he conclusively stated in his signed statement
to Philadelphia homicide detectives that he did not go upstairs.
In other words, he was not there when the door
was when entry was made into the apartment.

Speaker 7 (44:29):
So why would police corroborate Sam's story of a witness
when they spoke to doctor Osborne during that like come
to Jesus meeting back in twenty eleven.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
I have no clue. I mean, the evidence is irrefutable.
Phil's statement is backed up by surveillance video which shows
Sam getting on the elevator to go back upstairs by himself.

Speaker 7 (44:47):
And so if that's what you used to help convince
Emmy that it was a suicide, Like.

Speaker 8 (44:53):
What the heck?

Speaker 2 (44:54):
I actually want to stay on the topic of the
door lock for a minute. So remember the interior lock
is like a huge reason that police were so quick
to call it a suicide. And Guy basically says he
was told the same thing. So he was picturing like
this heavy duty dead bolt lock, like the type he
remembers from his own childhood home. But then when he
sees photos of the lock, it's not exactly what he

(45:15):
was expecting.

Speaker 13 (45:17):
I did a quick Google search, or really a YouTube
search on is it possible to open or lock or
unlock a one of those sliding hotel That's really what
it is, a hotel locking mechanism. Within seconds, there's dozens
of videos on how to do that, using your credit card,
a hanger, a piece of gum, sticking the lock sort
of halfway open, halfway closed, and slamming the door shut
as hard as possible. In other words, there's so many

(45:39):
different ways to lock that door from the outside.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Plus Guy notices something else. The lock wasn't that badly damaged,
considering Sam said that he forced his way in. There's
some damage, don't get me wrong, but it was still
intact and attached to the door.

Speaker 7 (45:56):
Oh so almost like it was pushed in and loosened
enough that you could maybe unlock it without breaking it
or doing anything else.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
I have no idea. I don't even know if Guy
knows what it means. It's just not what he I
think was expecting to see, right Basically, Guy just he
sees significant flaws in the way that this case was
handled and how the crime scene was interpreted. And Guy
isn't the only one who's seeing this stuff. Over the

(46:26):
next few years, Tom, the PI for the Greenbergs, brings
a bunch of forensic pathologists on board, starting with doctor
Wayne Ross. Doctor Ross examines a piece of Ellen's spinal cord,
which surprisingly the Medical Examiner's office still had, and in
early twenty seventeen, he concludes that her cranial cavity had

(46:47):
been punctured. According to the Oxygen Network, which profiled Ellen's
case for an episode of accident, suicide or murder, Doctor
Ross says that injury would have likely rendered her unconscious,
which learly would have prevented her from stabbing herself again.
Doctor Ross also says that there's evidence Ellen was strangled.

Speaker 7 (47:08):
What and this is in twenty seventeen, Like, why is
this the first time we're hearing about a strangulation.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Well, as far as I can tell, it's the first
time it comes up. In his report, doctor Ross says
that a mark on the front of Ellen's neck looks
like it could have come from a fingernail, and there
are multiple bruises under and on the side of her neck.
He also says that the bruises on Ellen's body are
consistent with a repeated beating. So all in all, doctor

(47:38):
Ross concludes that all of the evidence points to homicide.
Another expert weighs in a few months later, a detective
who specializes in crime scene reconstruction, and he says blood
pattern evidence suggests that Ellen's body was moved or repositioned
after she died. Now, remember she was found sitting upright,

(47:58):
but photos from the scene show this trail of blood
running horizontally across her face and like back towards her ear,
which is quote against the law of gravity end quote.

Speaker 7 (48:13):
Right, And that might explain why Sam in the nim
On Wind call initially said that Ellen was on her back.
Then when police get there, she's more like you said,
sitting up, slumped against the lower kitchen cabinets.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 7 (48:25):
Do we know if Sam ever mentioned touching Ellen's body
before the police arrived.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
We don't know. But according to Stephanie Farr's reporting, police
had a theory that her body was never moved, like
that's what they've been working off this whole time, that
she stabbed herself while she was standing and then just
slid to the floor. So if Sam did move her,
I don't think he ever told that to police or
it never got like incorporated into their working theory. And look,
we could probably do ten episodes just on these forensic reports.

(48:51):
You can actually find links to all of the ones
I mentioned, plus others on our website. But just to
simplify what it comes down to is every expert the
Greenberg's consult with says that Ellen's death is not a suicide.
In late twenty seventeen, the Greenberg's former lawyer, this guy,

(49:11):
Larry Krasner, is elected Philadelphia District Attorney. Now he had
pushed for the DA's office to reopen Ellen's case, so
in order to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest,
he turns it over to the state Attorney General's office.
Another year passes as Josh and Sandy wait to hear
more about that investigation, and when they finally do, it's

(49:31):
not the answer they expect or want. The Attorney General's
Office tells Stephanie Farr that additional evidence was found which
supports the suicide ruling. The office says that text between
Ellen and her mom shortly before her death show that
Ellen was in serious mental distress, and that an examination

(49:53):
of Ellen's computer shows suicide related searches from December eighteenth,
twenty ten, through January t twenty eleven, including painless suicide
and methods of suicide, which is strange because the investigation
report from twenty eleven specifies that nothing related to suicide

(50:14):
was ever found on either of Ellen's laptops and there
was no computer analysis report in the DA's file. But
the Attorney General's Office says that they got the results
directly from the computer forensic lab that originally tested it,
and they say they're not sure if any police or
prosecutors had ever even seen the analysis. Plus, as Guy
points out in his Facebook live video, the chain of

(50:36):
command was broken when it came to the computers. So
the question is is this even relevant? Because remember Sam's
family took them out of the apartment and had them
for a couple of days. After Allan died before police
ever got to analyze them. Right and speaking of Guy
and things that aren't in the DA's file, remember doctor
Rourke Adams.

Speaker 7 (50:57):
Uh, Yes, she was the one who doctor Osborne consulted
with about Ellen's spinal cord.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Right right, Well, when Guy was looking through Ellen's file,
he couldn't find a neuropathology report, and since this opinion
from doctor Urk Adams was such a big part of
the suicide ruling, he really wanted to see it. When
he asked police and the medical examiner for a copy,
he was told it couldn't be found or maybe didn't exist,

(51:23):
because there wasn't even an invoice for the work that
she supposedly did. The Philadelphia Inquirer asked doctor Rourke Adams
about it, and she says that she has no recollection
of the case and that since there's no report and
no bill for her services, she probably never saw this
spinal cord, although there is a quote remote possibility end

(51:45):
quote that she did.

Speaker 7 (51:47):
Okay, all of this is just bananas, Ashley.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Tell me about it. By this time, it's been more
than nine years since Ellen's death, and the Greenbergs have
now another lawyer representing them, a man named Joe Padraza.
In June of twenty nineteen, Joe takes everything that they've
gathered over the years and lays out the findings in
letters to the original emmys on the case, doctors Galino

(52:13):
and Osborne, asking them to change the manner of death
back to homicide or at the very least undetermined. Joe
even says that there's forensic evidence that shows that two
knives were used in the stabbing, one serrated and one
smooth blade based on how doctor Osborne described the wounds
as having smooth edges. But still nothing happens, and for

(52:37):
Josh and Sandy that's the last straw. A few months later,
they file a lawsuit against the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's office
and doctor Osborne, seeking to have Ellen's manner of death
changed from suicide to homicide or undetermined. In its response
to the lawsuit, the city of Philadelphia says that the
Greenbergs have no legal standing for the case. The medical

(53:00):
examiner can't be forced to change their opinion, which the
law protects. There's no requirement that a medical examiner convinced
the public that their findings are accurate, and there's no
requirement that they change a decision just because other forensic
professionals don't agree with them.

Speaker 7 (53:15):
I'm sorry I have to interrupt, but they already did.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Why, Yeah, but like for the police, not the public.
I don't know, it doesn't really make it.

Speaker 7 (53:22):
I just sorry, Like, I'm just like, they already did
this though, So why can't they just do it again?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Sorry, I think they can, so they could at any time,
but like they could be forced to right now. The
city also says that the Greenberg's lawyers have misrepresented statements
from doctor Osborne and other medical professionals to fit the
homicide manner of death ruling that they want, and doctor
Osborne lays out and defends his reasoning for changing the
ruling from homicide to suicide. To him, it wasn't just pressure,

(53:50):
he says, it was facts that persuaded him. He mentions
the spinal court evaluation by doctor Rourke Adams, which leaves
open the possibility that Ellen would still be able to
stab herself. He says there's the lack of defensive wounds
and the fact that some of the injuries are really shallow,
which could be what's known as hesitation wounds, like tentative
cuts a person makes when they're like testing out what

(54:12):
it feels like. And he says, there are the statements
from Sam and the busted door lock that support his story,
the witness who apparently saw him do it, no signs
of a struggle, nothing was stolen.

Speaker 7 (54:24):
Okay, but we know that some of that stuff isn't
even true. I mean, the part about Sam having a
witness isn't true. Other stuff is really shaky, like the
doctor's final court evaluation.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah, listen, the Greenbergs have a lot of people in
their corner who agree. There is a Justice for Ellen
facebook page that has more than twenty six thousand followers
and a petition on change dot org to have the
Attorney General reopen her case, and that petition has more
than forty three thousand signatures. But listen, I've seen what
crime junkies can do. You can easily add a couple

(54:57):
hundred thousand to that. Again, link is right in the
show notes. It takes two seconds. You can fill it
out while you keep listening. And legal proceedings are literally
underway as we speak. And because of that, there have
been a bunch of recent developments. For instance, the Greenberg's
lawyer got his own expert to examine Ellen's computer and

(55:17):
they apparently found that the suicide related search links were
actually not direct searches. What do you mean, well, Josh
says that they were phantom searches that came up based
on other stuff Ellen was looking for, like side effects
of the medication she was taking.

Speaker 7 (55:33):
Okay, So, like when you go to search like crime
junkie podcasts on Google, it will auto fill search options
beneath it for crime junkie merch, crime scenes, crime junkie
fanspe stuff like.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
That, right exactly. Also, just last May, a pathologist named
Lindsay Emory gave a deposition describing how doctor Galino asked
her to examine Ellen's spinal cord after she started working
at the Medical Examiner's office. Doctor Emory said that at
least one of the injuries had no hemorrhage or vital response,
which usually means that the person had no pulse when

(56:07):
they were injured.

Speaker 7 (56:08):
What do you mean they had no pulse when they
were injured, Ashley, What?

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Yeah, So basically it's possible that Ellen was already dead
for some of the stab wounds that she endured, so
she couldn't have done them. Yeah, but doctor Emery also
said it is possible that hemorrhage was washed away during
the autopsy, so she couldn't draw any firm conclusions about
the manner of debt. She said that she would need
more information, but that's the major issue in this case.

(56:34):
It's too late to go back and get certain information.
Guy talked about that in his Facebook live video.

Speaker 13 (56:41):
If just certain things were done differently, we could have
had definitive answers.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
The Greenbergs have been searching for those answers for eleven
years now, and a lot has changed during that time.
Sam Goldberg got married in twenty fourteen and is a father.
His uncle, who san he says, took Ellen's stuff out
of the apartment the day after her death, is a
judge now. Guy DeAndrea went into private practice, and doctor

(57:07):
Osborne took a new job in Florida. And get this,
Doctor Galino, Osborne's former boss was actually placed on administrative
leave due to an unrelated scandal involving the cremated remains
of some bombing victims. Oh okay, Yeah, a lot to
take in. Meanwhile, a Philadelphia judge recently ruled that the

(57:29):
Greenberg's lawsuit can go to trial, although no one knows
exactly when that could happen, but just being able to
go to trial is a major win for the Greenbergs.
Josh and Sandy are still haunted by the way their
daughter died and of what she must have endured before
her death. They believe Ellen was a victim of domestic violence.

Speaker 9 (57:51):
We know she was not a suicide victim. She was
a homicide victim of a brutal attack, and she was
abused before the attack. She was being abused. She didn't
know how to tell us that she was being abused,
and we didn't know how to ask the right questions
to find out if she was being abused.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Sam Goldberg has never been charged with domestic violence against Ellen,
and while he hasn't publicly commented about her death to
any media that I'm aware of, he did apparently tell
her family members that he believes she died by suicide.
Ellen's parents are careful to avoid pointing the finger directly
at Sam, and police have never named him as a suspect.

Speaker 6 (58:29):
It's not our job to find out who murdered Ellen
Ray Greenberg. So we're not going to speculate and we're
not going to talk about it. We need professionals who
have ethics who will investigate this case and bring justice.

Speaker 8 (58:48):
To our daughter.

Speaker 9 (58:50):
This is my mission and my purpose to get justice
for my daughter.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
Tom says, Ellen's story is really a cautionary tale about
trusting all the players in the criminal justice system to
do a thorough job.

Speaker 14 (59:03):
In a case like this, you want to make sure
that it never ever happens again. What the hell is
the problem, who the hell are they protecting? And why
that's my big thing. Why thank god the Greenbergs have
the support that they do to go through this, because

(59:28):
how many individuals are out there that don't have that
these types of things have occurred and don't have that
kind of support.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
If you or someone you know is a victim of
domestic violence, help is available. The number for the National
Domestic Violence Hotline is writ in our show notes, along
with a number that can provide help for anyone dealing
with suicidal.

Speaker 12 (59:49):
Thoughts, high crime junkies. Nina here, like Ashley said at
the top of the episode, I reported on this case
back in twenty twenty one, but lots of happens then,
and I've been following along every step of the way
Since twenty eleven, Ellen's parents have thought to have her
manner of death changed from suicide to homicide or at

(01:00:10):
the very least undetermined. They also sued the City of
Philadelphia for emotional distress, accusing officials, police officers, and doctor
Marlin Osborne, the pathologists who conducted her autopsy, of conspiring
to cover up her murder. That all came to a
head earlier this year in February, when the emotional distress
trial was supposed to start. It was there that everyone

(01:00:32):
would have to answer for how they handled Ellen's case
in a very public way, But that didn't happen. Instead,
doctor Osborne's lawyers called the Greenberg's lawyers and decided to reconsider.
And now he says that based on new evidence he
hadn't seen back in twenty eleven, he no longer believes
Ellen's death should be classified as a suicide. According to Osborne,

(01:00:54):
this new information included things like conflicting witness statements and
forensic findings. Now, the so called new info is not new.
These facts have been public for years and you guys
heard it all in our episode. What was new was
that Osborne acknowledged them, and that was huge because even
though he no longer worked for Philadelphia, it essentially pitted

(01:01:15):
him against the city and he probably would have been
called to testify against them. So right when jury's selection
was starting, the city decided to settle their case. They
didn't admit to any wrongdoing, but they agreed to pay
the Greenbergs an undisclosed amount of money, and most importantly,
they agreed to expeditiously re examine Ellen's case. When we

(01:01:37):
talked to Ellen's parents, they had mixed feelings. On one hand,
they got what they'd been fighting for for Ellen's case
to be re examined, but they spent fourteen years in
almost a million dollars in legal fees to get to
that point. Hulu's docuseries Death and Apartment six oh three,
What Happened to Ellen Greenberg goes into all of this
and what's happened since that settlement was reach, which according

(01:02:01):
to Ellen's parents, hasn't been enough at all. In September,
the Greenbergs were back in court looking to compel Philadelphia
to produce its findings of its re examination of Ellen's case.
According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, the judge presiding over that hearing,
Linda Carpenter, seemed to understand why the Greenbergs were frustrated.
She called out the city for the delay, which she

(01:02:23):
said was ridiculous. Judge Carpenter actually questioned whether she should
conduct a hearing to change Ellen's manner of death from
suicide to undetermined herself, and she suggested forcing the case
back to trial. Ultimately, though, Judge Carpenter agreed to continue
the case until October fourteenth, so there could be another
update very soon and if there is trust, the will

(01:02:45):
let you know because we're still following this case closely.
Make sure to follow Crime Junkie on social media at
Crime Junkie Podcast, and for even more episodes featuring original
reporting like the work I did for this episode, joined
the Crime Junkie fan Club today.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
You can find all the source material for this episode
on our website Crime Junkie podcast dot com. And if
you want to listen to more episodes like this and
all of our episodes completely ad free, be sure to
join our fan club. We'll put a link to that
in the show notes. You'll also get early access to
new episodes every week as well, and.

Speaker 7 (01:03:32):
You can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
We will be back next week with a brand new episode.

(01:04:01):
Crime Junkie is an Audio Chuck production. I think Chuck
would approve.

Speaker 15 (01:04:10):
My name's Chad Powers streaming on Disney Plus. Glenn Powell
is Chad Powers?

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
Is that guy?

Speaker 15 (01:04:17):
He's doing a missus doubtfire. There was one hell of
a performance, but with football, I like Key Powers. If
you are a puzzle a brand new original series.

Speaker 13 (01:04:27):
Every choice, every mistake carry you to the spot you
were born for this moment.

Speaker 15 (01:04:32):
Crime Chad Powers, a new original series exclusively on Disney
Plus eighteen plus subscription required. Decency's apply.

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