April 22, 2025 • 50 mins
Fatherhood isn’t just about providing—it's about presence, leadership, and showing up in the moments that matter. Joe Carr sits down with Ned Schaut, a father of five, podcast host, and author of The Adventure of Fatherhood, to explore what it truly means to be a dad in today’s world.
Ned shares his personal journey through early fatherhood, the lessons he learned supporting his partner during pregnancy, and how embracing his faith helped guide him through the challenges of parenting, marriage, and identity. Together, they dive into how men can be more than just providers—they can be stewards of their families, builders of trust, and leaders grounded in love and values.
In this episode, we discuss:
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How can dads be more involved during pregnancy and birth?
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What does true fatherhood stewardship look like?
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Why do so many men miss out on key parenting moments?
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How do you balance faith, family, and career without burning out?
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What’s the biggest myth new dads need to let go of?
Being dadicated isn’t about having all the answers.
It’s about showing up.
It’s about committing to the kind of dad—and man—you want to be, even when it’s hard. Especially when it’s hard.
Joe Carr is a dad to Della, husband to Serenity, co-founder of Serenity Kids baby food, and the voice behind Dadicated Joe.
Follow Joe Carr on social media
Instagram: @dadicatedjoe
TikTok: @dadicatedjoe
YouTube @dadicatedjoe
Ned Schaut is an author, podcast host, and passionate advocate for fatherhood. A proud husband and father of five, Ned is driven to master the craft of fatherhood and share his journey with other men through his podcast Fatherhood Fieldnotes, books and journals including the recent kickstarter success The Adventure of Fatherhood, his social media platforms, coaching programs, and more. Through his work, he equips men with the tools to be present, loving, and engaged fathers who can shape a better future.
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Fatherhood Can Change the World | Ned Schaut | TEDxRoseville
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Fatherhood fieldnotes podcast
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Front row dads – https://frontrowdads.com/ned-schaut/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ned Schaut (00:00):
I think is that guys. I think guys are getting better at it. Especially like this podcast is a great example. But I think because there's such a clear rite of passage for the mother, that men tend to step back and not give their opinion and not get engaged. So what happens is mom decides everything for the nursery. Mom decides how we're going to have the baby. Mom decides how we're going to feed the baby. Mom decides. And go down the line. I think some guys wake up and their kids in middle school and they realize they weren't really a part of any of these decisions, and so they. They don't have this deep relational connection with their kid, and then they just continue to lean into work and they miss this.
(00:39):
And I will tell you that the mother and the child needs you just as much like the kid needs the dad just as much as the mother. Right. But at what point do we realize that sometimes I think, not that it's too late, but it was missed opportunities beforehand.
Joe (00:54):
Yeah. And so finding. Finding ways to engage. I mean, a lot of those that you're describing are decisions that have to be made. Welcome to daddicated, Joe, the new dad's guide to the upending and transformational experience of becoming a new dad. Today, I'm really excited to have Ned Schout on the show. Ned is an author, podcast host, and passionate advocate for fatherhood. Ned is a proud husband and father of ages 12 to 18. He's driven to master the craft of fatherhood and share his journey through his podcast, fatherhood field notes, books and journals, social media platforms, coaching programs, and his recent children's book, the Adventures in Fatherhood. This book literally brought me to tears reading it to my daughter.
(01:38):
And he really integrates his Christian faith into his messaging, often even using scripture as a source of lessons and how men can be present, loving and engaged fathers who can shape a better future. So, Ned, I was really excited to be connected to you by Jason, the founder of Malk. I know you guys are both in the blanking on the name of the fatherhood group that I need to join. Front row dads. Yes. And so, yeah, he sent me your book and, you know, like I said, it just brought me to tears. I was like, I gotta have this guy on the show. He clearly knows what's up and been really devouring some of your content.
Ned Schaut (02:12):
Cool, man. Thanks so much for having me. Looking forward to talk fatherhood with you.
Joe (02:15):
Yeah, for sure. So tell me how you got to the place of wanting to become a dad.
Ned Schaut (02:23):
I think I'd always wanted to be a dad. I really enjoyed playing outside with my own dad. He was very adventurous with my brother and I. And so it was always a thing I wanted to be a dad. I wanted to wait till I was like 25 or something. But on my one year anniversary, my wife handed me a gift box. And I thought it was a watch or a bracelet. I wasn't too sure what was in this thing. And it was a pregnancy test. I'm like, what's this thermometer doing in this box? And what am I supposed to do with it? So I got married at 21, found out at 22, we're having our first kid. So it was like I was excited, but also it took me a little bit of time to go, this is happening sooner than I had anticipated.
Joe (03:03):
Yeah. So you weren't opposed to being a dad someday? You just weren't really planning at 21?
Ned Schaut (03:09):
Sure. I was thinking 25, like, we would kind of do business in life and whatnot. And then. But. But then it was like, all right, we're having one. And then made sense for them to be, you know, two years apart. So then we had another. And then when the second one was four months old, it was the old, whoops, you're pregnant. And there's twins in there. So, you know, I had four under the age of four by 26 years old. Yeah. Fast.
Joe (03:34):
Wow. Yeah. And your hair is not great.
Ned Schaut (03:37):
Pretty gray.
Joe (03:38):
It's. Yeah, it's not all the gray. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. So, yeah. So tell me about that experience of, you know, you discovered your dad, now you're pregnant. What was that like for you? What was your role?
Ned Schaut (03:50):
Yeah, you know, I think I go back to this a lot because it's like, so obvious for a woman that there's this rite of passage. And that's really what led me to the Adventure of Fatherhood book. And kind of a lot of my fatherhood content I wanted to create is there's this rite of passage. I mean, it's wild, right? A woman gets pregnant, she grows a human being inside her body, then she pushes this human out of her body, and then she feeds it with her body. It's like, okay, there's clearly a rite of passage here. And I think men, you know, we are designed to provide and protect. But what does that really mean? Especially as like an American, you know, what am I doing? So I put my head down and went to work.
(04:30):
Like, when we had our first kid, I was 23 years old and all I knew is like go work. So I was literally back to work three days later. So like that's something I would change now. But we had Brooklyn on a Friday and I was back to work on a Monday. And it's still one of those things that it's kind of my wife like jokingly holds it over my head but I didn't know what else to do other than I better go hunt for some food and bring it back to the house. And so we all have this innate provider and protector and I, I didn't have anybody clearly explain to me what that meant as a 23 year old new father.
Joe (05:09):
Sure. And you've been through the pregnancy journey now three times.
Ned Schaut (05:13):
We have five kids, so four pregnancies.
Joe (05:15):
Five kids. So yeah, four pregnancies. So lots of pregnancies. So tell me about what you've learned through all that and as your role in pregnancy, what does a man do to serve a pregnant wife, to be a part of that?
Ned Schaut (05:26):
Well, first off, I think my wife is super freaking hot when she's pregnant. So I love my wife pregnant. I wish we could have more kids. I mean she'd do it. I would, I would game on. But through the process I think that yes there is the role of provide which does mean, you know, if that's the way that your household does it is like go make money to feed the family. But your role is really to provide so much more, I think stability, security, peace and environment of safety. Not just safe, like do I have my AR and I'm ready to shoot anybody who comes through the door. Like that's great. But are you there to protect your wife's heart? Her. Her. And that could even be from family. Right.
(06:09):
And I think that as a young father that was an area I messed up a little bit is really understanding how to set healthy boundaries with close family to make sure I'm creating an environment for my wife to be able to be a young mother. So when if I were to talk to a, the NED at 23, it's really to be present with your wife, to be there, to be engaged, to be in the books, to be in the classes, just to really enjoy the journey of this little human growing. And I mean even when Sarah was pregnant with Brooklyn, I mean I talked to the belly. I remember putting my headphones in her belly button, playing some Bob Marley and just like starting to build a relationship with Brooklyn and each of my kids as she was pregnant with them.
(06:52):
But I think what an opportunity to Be a part of the whole process and then really support mama in this adventure of growing a human being.
Joe (07:00):
Yeah. It's interesting. You started with how. How hot you find her as pregnant. It's so interesting to me that women think that they're not. That somehow pregnancy is. Makes them unattractive. Most men I know find it very beautiful, and their woman's pregnant. So did you tell her a lot? Did you show her? How did she feel?
Ned Schaut (07:16):
Oh, yeah. I think it was finding the right time. Right. So you've got these trimesters. You've got parts where she's. She's not really into you, and then there's parts where she, you know, is into you. So I think also maximizing that understanding of. Of setting your needs aside a bit. And I think that I failed at that when Brooklyn was firstborn, right? So you're first born. There's this period where she is not wanting to get intimate at all. And I'm, you know, as a young dad, young knucklehead guy, I kind of was a dick to be a. You know, I didn't understand it. But now looking back and through multiple pregnancies, you really start to understand how to walk with her.
(07:58):
And I think that's kind of like, the unfortunate thing is, as men, we don't necessarily have anybody kind of guiding us, which is the beautiful thing of, like, what you're doing right here. Right. Is some dude could listen to a bunch of interviews with people about this season and have a better understanding stepping into it versus just learning from failing, which is, you know, what? We all get to share so we.
Joe (08:22):
Can learn from your failing. How are you a dick? Like, what was some dickish things?
Ned Schaut (08:26):
Like, I'm expecting that, you know, like, intimacy was going to be the same following this and. And quicker than I would have, you know, like, I would like it to get back. Back to the groove quicker versus, like, holy, there's a lot. Can I concuss on your podcast, I'm assuming you had Tucker Max. Anything's. Anything's gay. Anyways, I think I didn't have this u understanding of, like, really what she just went through, right? Like, really understanding. I mean, I was there, I'll tell you, when I saw Brooklyn be born, it was the most amazing thing. And I do think that guys should. Young fathers should start to look at it like that. Not this like, oh, I can't watch, or, oh, it's. It's. You know, this is ruined. Like, like, dude, wrong mindset. Wrong mindset.
(09:12):
The most beautiful, amazing Connected thing to creation that we get to be a part of. We get to be. We get to see this. We get to. To eng. I didn't fully understand the beauty behind it all. To. To embrace it and honor and respect, like, what her body just went through.
Joe (09:29):
Yeah. Yeah, thanks. And so just before we move into that period of post after pregnancy to birth, anything else you want to say about the pregnancy experience, how you supported her, what tips you have for dads with pregnant wives?
Ned Schaut (09:41):
I think the tip I would give is, I think as young men, even now I'm 41, there's still this draw to put effort into my work. There's this constant draw, right? Because there's. There's reward, right. Especially if you're driven, there's like, reward. The thing I would love for men to really understand is just to be in the season that you're in, right? So if. If you're in this young, married young pregnancy phase, like, be there versus when the kid's born, when the kid's five, when I can take this kid camping or hunting or whatever it is you want to do, like, be in that season. So if that's watching stupid movies till all hours of the night or eating ice cream or it is that your.
(10:24):
Your spouse is, like, craving running Sarah, I would have to run to some Mexican restaurant and get this chips and salsa. That's what she wanted, was this. Chips and salsa. Be in that. Because before you know it, that season's over. And then you're just reflecting on it, right? And. And you never reflect back and go, man, I spent so much time doing that with her. It's always like, I wish I would have enjoyed that season a little bit more. I wish I would have been a little bit more present. And I think that is true. In each of the stages, you know, you're pregnant, you have a baby, you have, you know, young toddlers, like elementary school, middle school, high school. And let me just say this for guys is what I think is that guys, I think guys are getting better at it.
(11:04):
Especially, like this podcast is a great example. But I think because there's such a clear rite of passage for the mother, that men tend to step back and not give their opinion and not get engaged. So what happens is mom decides everything for the nursery. Mom decides how we're going to have the baby. Mom decides how we're going to feed the baby. Mom decides. And go down the line, I think some guys wake up and their kids in middle school and they realize they weren't really a part of any of these decisions. And so they don't have this deep relational connection with their kid. And then they just continue to lean into work and they miss this. And.
(11:41):
And I will tell you that the mother and the child needs you just as much like the kid needs the dad just as much as the mother. Right. But at what point do we realize that? Sometimes I think, not that it's too late, but it was missed opportunities beforehand.
Joe (11:56):
Yeah. And so finding. Finding ways to engage. I mean, a lot of those that you're describing are decisions that have to be made. And obviously mom's going to have a strong input, but she also maybe doesn't want to be left on her own to make it by herself. How do you navigate?
Ned Schaut (12:12):
And I would just say it's like, be engaged with it. It. Right. Like, maybe you don't have to say, I don't like that car seat. We really need to go with this one. But be engaged with it. Not just walking through being like, I don't care. You choose. Or you go with your friends. Like, maybe on some instances, that's great. But. But to be engaged in the kid life and in the mother's decisions, I think is really important. I think it's what she wants. I mean, when you think about being a provider and a protector, it's. Are you. Are you engaged in all of this? Not just.
Joe (12:42):
You're not controlling.
Ned Schaut (12:44):
No, but.
Joe (12:45):
And you're not checked out of it. It's this engage. You know, your job is not just.
Ned Schaut (12:49):
To bring a paycheck. I think we get caught up in what does it mean to be a good steward. And I think even as like a, you know, you brought up my faith is important to me. I think I've had this new realization that am I really the provider? Like, I'm kind of wrestling with that word of provider. And I'm not saying I'm not supposed to go make a paycheck, but. But I'm not. I'm not the one making the apple. Right. The apple's out there. It's made. How am I stewarding that apple? So I think stewardship, if men could lean into that, like, how am I stewarding my relationship with my wife? How am I stewarding this house? Our resources, our finances, our energy? How am I stewarding that?
(13:25):
And that means that I'm looking at it from a grateful mindset, like, this is a gift. This is a gift that I want to take care of, and I want to nurture and grow. So I think that's what I'm leaning into is that in lieu of.
Joe (13:37):
The word provide, what did you have to, like, let go of or changed to allow yourself to become that steward.
Ned Schaut (13:44):
Funny. So I think what led me into wanting to talk about fatherhood in the first place is I had this dream, right? I was a youth pastor, and I had this dream that I was going to open this youth center. It was, like, since 18 years old, this is what I was going to do, is open a youth center. If you remember back to watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, there was, like, the Foot Clan secret hideout where they'd, oh, my God, skateboard and, like, oh, yeah. I mean, they were also smoking cigars at 13 and unpacking stolen goods. So that wasn't really the plan for the youth center, but, like, a place like that for teens to come to. That's what I wanted to make.
Joe (14:18):
And nice.
Ned Schaut (14:19):
It was at my fingertips in 2014, and then it just fell apart. And what I do to feed the family is I sell insurance. It's like the most unsexy thing. If you knew me that it's just not what you'd say Ned probably does as health insurance. But I think that God has had me in that role so that my identity didn't become what I do. Right. I'm not Ned, the youth leader of this epic youth center where millions of kids come to. So when that I'm. I'm. I'm just Ned, right? And so I think I had to let go of some of these expectations I had for what I was going to do with my life. And during that time, when that fell apart, I realized that as a man, the things I really wanted were to feel valued, needed, respected, valued.
(15:02):
And that I was leaving a mark on this earth. And what I had been doing is looking outside my front door to find it. And those desires that are core to me as being a man could all be found if I just turned around and looked inside my home. It doesn't necessarily matter what I do out in the world. I could sell insurance or I could have an epic youth center. Either way, my first and foremost priority should be my wife, should be my kids, and that's where I should find the fulfillment of being valued, needed, respected, valued, and leave a mark on this earth. And so that was the shift for me. And then I think, because of that realizing, like, wow, my wife is a gift. My kids are a gift. I need to steward it.
Joe (15:41):
Well, no, but ultimately, your dream of the youth center had to fail.
Ned Schaut (15:45):
I would say so.
Joe (15:46):
Really?
Ned Schaut (15:47):
Yes.
Joe (15:47):
Have to make that hard.
Ned Schaut (15:49):
It had to.
Joe (15:50):
That was the message God was sending you, basically, was he had to look inward. Yeah.
Ned Schaut (15:54):
It had to fail. If it didn't, then I'd probably still be pursuing that.
Joe (15:58):
And then you. And you had to see that failure eventually as an opportunity, which is very hard to do.
Ned Schaut (16:03):
I took a whole year, and I really had an identity crisis. I remember going to. We lived in Northern California at the time, and I remember going to the beach several times on kind of personal retreats, just going, like, what the frick am I doing with my life? Like, what am I doing? And that's where it's like, dude, you're missing it, bro. You're missing it. You have these five little kids at home. And there was a big shift, so I stopped being a youth pastor, too, because I was like, wait a second. I'm putting so much energy and effort, and I don't want this to sound bad, but into other people's kids and, like, jockeying, like, calling teenagers, like, why aren't you coming? Come, come hang out. Come, come hang out.
(16:34):
When I've, like, got these five little kids at home who want every second that I have. So why wouldn't they get my very best creativity, my very best energy? And so I stopped doing all that, and I started putting all that energy into my family.
Joe (16:49):
Wow. Yeah. And I know, you know, society really values the output or the numbers or the productivity or the. How many teens came to your program in this case? So how did you cope with that idea that, oh, these five kids and my attention on them is enough?
Ned Schaut (17:04):
I mean, I'll. I think I still wrestle with it. Right. Like, my business is fairly successful. And so, I mean, even journaling the other day, I. I journaled. Don't let your business take the best part of your leadership like that needs to be given to your home. Because, like, okay, my. My insurance agency. Where's it going to be in 100 years? I don't know. Maybe it'll exist, maybe it won't. But my kids, kids, kids are going to exist. And what am I doing today to have impact on those human beings? Because. Because that ultimately is my responsibility. There's no other man who's responsible for that but me. So I need to take that really serious that it's not just about me in this lifetime. And, like, did I get a sale today or what did I. Whatever, whatever. It's.
(17:47):
If you were to see my family when I'm gone, it doesn't mean they'll be perfect. They Won't be what does perfect even mean? But did I do what I could to love and serve them well?
Joe (17:57):
And even just asking that question and prioritizing that it sounds like is a huge part of the battle. What else would you say are sort of ways you lead, ways you steward, general principles to follow?
Ned Schaut (18:08):
So are you asking like, how do I lead in my home?
Joe (18:12):
Yes.
Ned Schaut (18:12):
So I think it's shifted. Right. Like anytime you kind of get it figured out, your kids move from one stage to another. Right. Like I've got a 12 year old who thinks she's 21 and then I've got four teenagers. And so it constantly shifts. Right. But in this current season, what I would say is we have a monthly family meeting. We have Sunday night family dinner. We have, you know, like this morning I get up and I make their lunches, I make their breakfast. We do a little devotion at 7am before they head off to school. There are family core values, family vision that we're kind of asking the kids the question. And I have people ask me like, well, when do you start this?
(18:50):
And I think if you start it when they're brand new, mom and dad are having family meeting, family monthly meeting, whatever it is you want to do, it just becomes a part of what you do. But ultimately I think that the way you lead is you don't define yourself by what you do outside the home. And you're constantly reflecting, how can I love and serve these people and know them? Like, what does it mean to know someone?
Joe (19:13):
So, yeah, the family meetings are great. When my wife and I've had, you know, we call them business meetings, like house business meetings. I'm surprised how many couples don't do this, that you just, you know, end up talking about it over dinner, talking about it on the fly. But it's like, you know, then you're missed time relating or you're fighting or just stuff's never dec. And so this, you said you do it monthly with the whole family, with the kids and everyone together. At what age did you start involving the kids in those meetings?
Ned Schaut (19:41):
I'd say when they were between 7 and 10 is about when we started. Yeah.
Joe (19:46):
Okay.
Ned Schaut (19:47):
But prior to that we would do like weekly devotion as a family. Right. So it wasn't out of the ordinary to do something where we get together and we talk about something intentionally or do something intentional. So they're sort of used to me doing something.
Joe (20:02):
Are you, do you have your family vision handy? I'd love to hear that. If you're Willing to.
Ned Schaut (20:06):
Yeah. So the family vision is really, I believe that our family is. Is here to protect and nurture the essence of what it means to be a beautifully messy family. And, and what that means is it's nice. Family's just messy, man. I mean, there's things this year that's like, oh, my God. Beautifully messy. Right. And I think that there are so many things, whether you want to get political or you don't, there are just things pulling the family apart. And it could just be this kids has this sports and this kid has this school. Like, there's just. There's so many things jockeying for a time that it's very hard to. To. To. You have to be really intentional if you want to be a collective family.
(20:45):
Like, when your kids are little, it's really easy to have family dinner every night and have a bedtime routine, but when you have three teenagers with jobs, a kid who's in college, you know, and sports, it's like, I've locked down. Sunday night is family dinner. This is it. The one.
Joe (21:01):
The one.
Ned Schaut (21:01):
Yeah. And so I'm constantly fighting for how do we. How do we protect and nurture what it means to be a family? Because I want my kids to take that value into their own families. And then if you. If you came and looked at the Shout family in 150 years, when I'm long gone on, my hope is that although there is going to be a mess, that. That it's beautifully messy and they're still holding on to what it means to be a family.
Joe (21:27):
Yeah, it's nice. How did you create that vision, Chachi?
Ned Schaut (21:31):
BT no, just sitting and thinking about what matters most. Like when I die, what do I hope's true when I'm laying in my, you know, the bed, they give a perfect way to die. Right. Laying in my bed at home, and my kids and grandkids are all around me. What do I hope to be true? And that's the thing that I hope to be true. And then if you're to break it down to a daily mission, the Jewish culture has this prayer, the Shema. This is what they teach their kids, is love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. And so if you were to be in my house for a week, anytime that we say a prayer, whether it's in the morning or in the evening, you would hear that.
(22:05):
You would hear, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. And so practically, what does that mean for our family is. Is it ends with as you love yourself so like, you can't really love anybody or do anything unless you can first accept who's in that skin. And that's you. Right. Which is hard to do as like a teenage girl. And. And so I got four of those. Right? So it's this. You are beautiful, you are loved. You matter, you belong. You gotta love yourself. Then you gotta love your. Yeah.
Joe (22:35):
So you channeled the vision for the family and then kind of shared it with them and they embraced it from there.
Ned Schaut (22:41):
Embrace is loose, right? I mean, I don't think my K are like, dad, when's the next family meeting? We can't wait. I wouldn't say it's quite like that. But when they're there, they'll engage. Right. Nobody wants to be pulled away from whatever it is they want to do, but when they're there, they engage. We actually just did like a two day family retreat together, which was pretty epic. But I paid them each to be there.
Joe (23:04):
Oh, wow. Wow. And that'll work, I guess. And they showed up fully. You don't feel like paying them anyway, there.
Ned Schaut (23:12):
My son halfway through the first day because he's very, he's 15 and he's very much like my time. My time. And I'm like, you know, but he's transitioning from like boy mindset to man mindset. So we're working on it. But I'm like, hey, bro, you are not showing up where you're earning this. So either show up and earn it or don't. And you're not going to get the, you know, we moved into a new house, so let's just, you know, like, my strategy is I gave them each 250 bucks to do whatever they want with for their bedroom. So it's kind of like it's already gonna be spending some money on helping them with their new rooms. But it was like an incentive to go like, hey, show up.
(23:48):
And I, I want to respect and value your time and this matters to me enough to just do this. So. No, it was really good.
Joe (23:55):
But you felt that even if the only reason he came was to get the money, that being there benefited him as well as the rest of the family and that was. It didn't matter. He didn't have to come because he wanted to. He just being there was.
Ned Schaut (24:06):
Yes. And I think that works for them.
Joe (24:08):
The reason.
Ned Schaut (24:09):
Yeah, because it's a good question, right? Is like, is he just here because of that? Maybe that's why he shows. But he showed up because. And became present in it.
Joe (24:18):
Yeah. Still. Still valued. And even if not for him, but for the rest of the family to have him there. Yeah, it was valuable. So. Well, talk to me about. So we talked about pregnancy. You have the birth. You really sounds like you really support men being actively involved in the birth. What is your role in the birth? I mean, obviously witnessing it and being part of that magic is huge. What did you actually do from a practical perspective?
Ned Schaut (24:37):
So good. So, like, we had Brooklyn, and it's like, the first time is so barbaric and wild. Right. And then Violet, our second one, was totally ready it. Right. Like, you know what to expect. Then the twins. We had twins. This was like, new, right, Dude?
Joe (24:53):
Whole other level.
Ned Schaut (24:54):
And it was super cool. So my birthday's Fourth of July, and we got to the hospital July 3rd at, like, 11, and we're like, please help these kids stay in there. So they were born on 4th of July, boy and a girl. So I got. I got my boy and. And the twins on my birthday, which was super cool. Yeah, I think it's my 20, 26, 27, 28, maybe 28. All I know is I had all my kids before I was 30. But we taught. We call that the dark year. When the twins were born, we had four under four. And, like, were broke at the time, too. Like, were free cheese and milk from the government. My poor wife was, you know, standing in line getting formula at the grocery store. I did it once. It was.
(25:31):
It was not my favorite, but I was building our business, you know? But now we live in Hawaii and a great house, and life is great 15 years later. So what is the dad's role? I really looked at my role as being fully present, engaged with my wife. Like, what does she need? How can I be here for her? And I do think that as you are doing life with somebody at such an intimate level, you. You need to know your wife. But for me to be next to her and rub her forehead, hold her hand, or know when to stop touching her is really important. Right.
(26:02):
And a lot of times it's not even needing to say anything, but it's like, have you positioned yourself to be that one person that she trusts so much in the most vulnerable, wildly adventurous state that you're the one that she wants to be grasping your hand. She wants you touching her head, whatever it might be. But to me, that's. It is to be so in tune with who she is. And again. Right. I'm making it sound like I've got it nailed. I don't at all. We've been married 20 years, and I'm still working on discovering who my wife is. But to me, that's. The role is as present as you can be. And there, like, actually there, you know.
Joe (26:43):
It makes me think. My mom really taught me to receive or to take or to be served by women. Right? Like that kind of old school generation of, like, the girls serve and the boys, you know, receive in the household. That kind of old dynamic. And. And it's. It's sort of. I find it counter to our wiring that men, we really enjoy serving. We actually really like giving, serving, being well used. But it was. But it is a. It is a transition from, like, my woman is here to. To serve me or please me, to, like, no, I. She is incapacitated. I mean, her whole job is this baby. Carrying it, birthing it, raising it. And now I have to risk to give without any auto. Aut. Automatic feedback. Like, there's.
(27:26):
At best, she doesn't yell at me, you know, like, there's not a lot of, like, for that period of time is tough. So how did you. If you were really young, I mean, in your 20s, still basically kind of a late adolescent, how did you make that shift from consuming a woman's attention to becoming certain?
Ned Schaut (27:40):
I think I'm still learning, right? It's like, I think that's the wrestle is. Is we are all selfish to some level. And I think that's the. The goal is to become unselfish and. And like, yes. Turning that patriarchal pyramid upside down. Right. Instead of, like, serving me and my world, like, are you the center of your universe? And I. And I mean, maybe we all wrestle with it, but I wrestle. Like, am I making this about me, or am I looking to what the needs are of those around me? And I think if you can make that shift, I mean, that's. That's what's. That's what's said, husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church. And that is like, go die on a cross, bro. And that's every day, right? Like, that's. How do I. How do I walk into a room? Room?
(28:23):
Because you could walk into a room two ways. I could walk in and I could go, all right, what's here for me? Like, why am I here? Why am I here? What's in this for me? Or I can walk into a room and I go, okay, why am I Here. What can I do to love and serve whatever's in this room? So it's the same question. It's just asking it with a completely different motive. And so I would tell you, honestly, is that I'm still wrestling with that today. I'm still journaling about that today. It's like reflecting on. On did I love and serve or. And where am I? Full of shit. And I need to see other people's needs above my own.
(28:56):
I think, again, if you were to go back to being a young father and having a baby in the house, be in that season and don't just go work. Don't just go work, go. And how can you love, how can you serve? How can you be a support? How can you sit there and just hold the baby? Talk. I always tell guys, like, man, I remember talking to a guy recently. I'm like, how often do you hold your baby? And he's like, oh, not that often. Like, he's kind of, like, waiting until his kid was able to hang with him. And I'm like, dude, you're missing it. Like, dude, just go hold that kid. And. And you know what? Shame on. I don't want to say shame on. That's the wrong word. Dudes need to step in and hold the baby. Right?
(29:31):
Like, but mom's also got to trust that the baby's going to be all right and, like, let dad come in and. And feed the bottle and hold and change a diaper. I mean, I've heard of guys never changing a diaper. Come on, dude. Come on. On, like, be involved in those things.
Joe (29:47):
Yeah, and. And you're. You're right. Sometimes moms have resistance to it, but ultimately, dads, if you're insistent on holding the baby and changing a diaper, she's not gonna stop, you know, like, it is on us to help her feel safe enough to let you and say, hey, I got this. I know how to do this, you know, versus, oh, she won't let me. So now I don't have to do it.
Ned Schaut (30:05):
Yeah, don't let that be a cop out. And then don't be a bitch about it and be like, she won't let me. So I guess I'm just not. Not going to. It's like, no, go earn the right. You have what it takes. That kid needs you. Even if it's talking to the kid, connecting with the kid, holding the kid. Like, my gosh, it matters.
Joe (30:21):
Yeah. So let's go to that first three months after birth. They call it the fourth trimester. Or the postpartum period. You know, mom and baby are still essentially one. You know, they're still kind of the same person for a while. What is, what is your role? What. How did you serve in those. In those early times?
Ned Schaut (30:37):
I mean, it's so wild. I remember so clearly when they, I mean, dude, I wore a back. I'm wearing a backwards hat right now. I wore a backwards hat during the, during Brooklyn being born. Like, I mean, these nurses probably thought this kid was screwed. I remember leaving the hospital and just being like, really? You're just going to hand this baby to me? I remember driving so careful all the way home, right. We're in my truck, my wife's in the back with Brooklyn. And I, I just remember, like, this is so crazy. Like, you can't cross the street on your own. Wherever you want you. There's laws for this yet. They're going to send you home with a baby and just kind of good luck, you know, like, you'll figure it out.
(31:16):
So that first three months, I'm sure if I were to go out and bring my wife in that her perspective may be a bit different than mine. I think that my, in what I did was go to work. What I could have done was probably just be home a bit more and support a bit more. If I reflect back on that season, I remember it being very hard for my wife because we didn't have family where were living. We were living in Southern California at the time. And so I, I do remember if I go from like the 30,000 foot view, that what became apparent and very important to my wife was that she needed to be near family.
(31:49):
So it didn't happen in the first three months, but it did happen fairly quickly where we decided to make a move back to a town where family was because I knew that was important to her and important for her raising our kids. That family needed to be nearby to be a part of it.
Joe (32:04):
Yeah, yeah. Takes a village in that way. You. So one of the things you did was help facilitate getting more help.
Ned Schaut (32:11):
Yeah. But in the first three months, like, if I look back, I mean, that was 18 years ago. If, if I, of course I'm going to look at my show up is much more, you know, like a movie and beautiful. But my hope is that if I were to go back and see myself in that time, that it was holding Brooklyn, holding my wife and telling her how amazing she was, did I do it enough? Probably not. If I think back to an encouragement to a dude I would say nothing else matters for this season. Just love on her, look her in the eyes, adore her, both mom and baby.
Joe (32:41):
So simple, but so powerful. And it's vulnerable. I guess it's hard to do because it's. We're not. We're rewarded for making money checking boxes, not for looking at people's eyes.
Ned Schaut (32:50):
It's like, it's like holding on to that. Like, dude, I'm going to work for the next 40 years, right? You have a kid at 25 or whatever, you're going to work for the next 40 years.
Joe (32:59):
Years.
Ned Schaut (32:59):
Your kid is going to be gone in 20. Like, having an understanding that the seasons move quick and that you're in a season right now you don't really like. I always think back to two things that I think of is that movie with Adam Sandler called Click. So great movie because he, like, clicks. He has this remote and he clicks through his life and be. Because he's just trying to make money, make money. And then he. He gets there. He clicks through all the important stuff and then he's super rich, but everybody hates him. And then. And then the end of the Office. Like, my favorite show is Andy says, I wish you knew you were in the good old days when it was the good old days. Some, Some line like that. And you know, like, my daughter's at college now.
(33:38):
She just graduated high school but six months ago and is at college. Like, the ship is sailed. It's different now. Still going to spend a ton of time with her. But understanding, you know, there's some statistic. And I think something like 90% of the time you spend with your kid is going to before they move out. So having that mentality or, you know, there's a book out there, the 18 summers. Like, okay, what am I doing with this time that I have with these gifts?
Joe (34:02):
Yeah. They say the majority of the time you'll know your kids will be as an adult. The most of the years will be knowing them as an adult. But that's interesting that the most of the time you spend is actually when they're little, but it's actually very short.
Ned Schaut (34:15):
It's very short.
Joe (34:16):
So, you know, they say the days are long, but the years are.
Ned Schaut (34:19):
And those seasons, right? Like, I mean, the season of being a young parent with a baby, or an parent with a baby, whatever. It's such a beautiful time. It's such a beautiful time. So I think being in it and understanding that. And I think one thing, if I would give a Tip to anybody is to journal. I think journaling is really helpful to kind of bring you into the moment of life.
Joe (34:40):
Yeah. So the, the four under four here. Tell us how you got through that. Tips and tricks for surviving that level of.
Ned Schaut (34:48):
We were broke. Mention that my mom was very helpful to come and help Sarah. I had three jobs at the time. I do. This was really important. I think that it was like a breaking point for us, like not connecting and I don't know, I'm sure I got advice from somebody of dating, you know, like making sure to go on dates and we would go and we would have somebody come to our house and we would go buy one Starbucks coffee and then we would go sit in a car or our car and just sit in the car. Just be together and share a coffee and probably because were broke, but that was like what we could do was that.
Joe (35:26):
Wow.
Ned Schaut (35:27):
We call it the dark year. Don't remember a lot of it. We see photos. But it definitely bonded us as a family. Like having five kids relatively close ages and it really bonded us as a family. Like we're pretty tight.
Joe (35:42):
Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. How, how has it changed you? What kind of. What's it turned you into? Being a dad.
Ned Schaut (35:48):
My hope is that it has made me more self aware of what matters most. Most. Right. I. I think sometimes not like. I think sometimes if you have two kids or, or you like really have this grand plan of like okay, one kid and then the second kid. I think sometimes you can hang on to like the old Ned or the. Okay, I want to get back to you know, the boys softball league or like whatever. So I'll tell you, for me, in having four then five, like they are my life. So I, I put a lot of time and energy into them because a lot things there just wasn't the time for it. So they kind of, they had to fizzle out. Now I've. Now, I mean I do surf with my kids, skate with my kids, cross with my kids.
(36:33):
Like I ended up just doing the same stuff just with my kids. It's great. Like me and my daughter, we did this like two hour CrossFit event this weekend and we got first place in our division. It was epic. Like we beat. Yeah, it was so fun. So what it's turned me into is I think I'm still the same Ned. I'll say the bad parts is I do think that there's this level of responsibility. So my family sometimes teases me that there's Work Ned. And that there's fun Ned. And so I think I still wrestle with this. Like, were broke 15 years ago, so I gotta go. I gotta feed the family. I gotta feed the family. So I do think that there's this, you know, reminding myself, like, ned, you don't have to show up that way anymore.
(37:13):
But there's this still kind of, I need to go work to feed them. But on the good sides of me, I. I think that I am a fun, engaged dad with my kids.
Joe (37:21):
What do you think? There's, like, some. My myths about fatherhood, Things that you thought that were true that aren't true, or things that you hear other men assume.
Ned Schaut (37:28):
I think that the most ridiculous myth is, like, this, my life is over. Like, this. Like. Like, bro, your life's just beginning. And that's really. So the adventure of fatherhood book, you held up. Like, I wanted to create something that helped a dad see how epic it is to be a father. So, like, the book starts off, it's this dude on a motorcycle, no helmet, ripping through the desert. Badass, right? But then when he finds out he's having a kid, what does he do? Does he sell the motorcycle? No, he adds a sidecar, right? And so that's the thing is, like, bro, you get to go do the same rad stuff, but now you don't got to wait on stupid ass friends and call them and go do it. You get to do it with a human that's half you.
(38:08):
So what is it that you love? What is the adventure? And then. And then learning about this human, what is it that they love? You get to go do that with them and like, dude, how epic. So then. Then the book turns into. It's just a. It's a children's book, but it turns into 10 affirmations. Like, I will teach you this. I will show you that we will learn this together. And to me, the end of life, dude, that's what I want to do. Not that I have all these adventures with, like, just friends, but did I go teach and share and learn with. With human beings that I got to make? Like, dude, otherhood is the most amazing adventure alongside. And I'll say this for me, alongside pursuing a lifelong love. And that would be my wife.
(38:55):
Like, somebody asked me the other day, he's like, what do you ultimately, Ned? What do you want? Like, what do you want? And I was like, you know what? When I die, I want to be married to Sarah. Like, if that's the one thing that I am able to Accomplish. I don't think that there's anything else more important. And, and I don't think that there's a better gift I could give my kids. Like, I constantly tell my parents the greatest gift that they've given me is that they're still married 42 years later. And it's wild, dude. My dad is like liberal atheist and my mom is conservative Christian. Yet they found. It's wild. They found a common ground in family and a common ground in other things. So it's really a beautiful example that you can make things work. Anyway, sorry, I'm, I'm tangenting.
Joe (39:43):
That's amazing. I mean, I mean, how do you do it with the, with. I mean, you've got all these kids, you're working. How do you invest in the relationship? Give us some dad husband relationship advice.
Ned Schaut (39:52):
Here Is hard, bro. Marriage is hard. Marriage is messy. It is. It's a constant wrestle. It's a constant sacrifice. And I think she'd say the same thing. We just celebrated 20 years, you know, So a couple things. Yeah. A couple thoughts.
Joe (40:06):
Wow.
Ned Schaut (40:06):
Right now I'm rereading a book called the Meaning of Marriage by Tim Keller. Beautiful. Somebody should hand every new couple this book. Without a doubt. And so a couple tips. I pay attention to the time, right? So am I spending time with my wife? Do I know her? Do I care about what matters to her? Am I going on a date with her and that I could do better at? Do I know her ultimate, like, desires? Like, what are her ultimate desires? And then am I making an effort to do that? And I'll tell you, there are things that I have done over the last three years. So I'm just share this with you. I was driving to a front row dad's event.
(40:40):
I was in Utah and I'm driving and I'm like praying on my drive and I'm like, God, you know, like, prepare me for this trip and what do you want me to get out of it? And blah, blah. And clear as day, he's like, ned, all I really want from you is just put your wife first and then I'll take care of all everything else, like your businesses, like all that. I'll take care of all that stuff. Just put Sarah first. And that was three years ago. And I'll tell you, if you were to ask her today, am I doing that? I think she'd say that I'm continuing to move towards that. And so that is my prayer is that I. And my Desire is to. To make her my number one priority.
(41:15):
And so I was even talking about it with a friend yesterday. Like, what is it? What's a best friend? Like, what does it mean to have a best friend? And how is your spouse your best friend? What does that look like? So we're talking about that. So I think that ultimately you're. I'm never going to arrive. It's going to be this constant wrestling. That's life, right? That is life. Is. Am I in the conversation? Am I in the fight of that?
Joe (41:36):
Yeah. You know, I think my dad modeled for me that loving the family, serving the family was through action, was through service, doing stuff was through fixing broken things, making money, organizing trips, whatever. And my mom, all she really wanted was his attention. She wanted, you know, some affection and attention. Love her. And he was too busy doing all this stuff to give her that. So she was always unsatisfied and he was always resentful. Like, why are you unsatisfied? I work so hard. And so I really see that I'm wrestling with that, with. With my wife now is like, she just wants my attention. She just wants a little bit of tenderness. She wants me to ask her how she's doing. She wants me to hold her, which is so much easier than fixing all the broken shit, but also, like, way harder.
(42:19):
For some reason, I'd rather scurry around and exhaust myself doing stuff than to, like, just take the time and put a little tension on her. And I, I spend a little attention on her and she'll give that back to me tenfold, you know? But I, like, I get mad that I have to go first. Like, why can't she put digit on me first and then I'll put attention on her, you know, this kind of consumption model that I was talking about. And so it's like you said, it's just like making her first in that way. I think I tend to think of my daughter as first. And she's kind of jealous of that.
Ned Schaut (42:48):
Yeah. And I'll agree with that. And it's a great example. Okay, so just the other night, so we're going to Fiji for a friend's 40th coming up. Like, whatever. Coming up a few weeks. And I've been like, I want to bring the kids. And what she was hearing was, she's not fun enough for me to just go with her. Oh, bro. So like, this is like two nights ago, we're having dinner, and a friend who's going was like, oh, are you guys excited for Fiji? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I wish my kids were coming. And. But then she said it. She's like, oh, well, this is what I hear. And so I've been thinking about. I'm like, dang. Like, she is fun, and I want her to feel like, dude, I could just go have a freaking really sweet, fun time with her.
(43:27):
And so I think that's. That's what it is just being willing, you know, to. To. To reflect on that. I'm not saying every time I hear. Hear a criticism or something that I'm, like, jumping at the bit to, oh, I want to change. Right. But am I willing to be vulnerable? Which is something you brought up before and something you said too, which I think is really important in our current culture. You made the comment, like, why do I gotta go first? Right? And I think that's what we're missing is, like, there's this weird, masculine, feminine conversation, like, all this stuff, like, what does it all mean? And I think where I'm kind of at right now is like, if me and my wife are gonna dance, somebody has to just take the first step. Yeah. Or put out a hand.
(44:10):
Right, Put out a hand. And the thing is, if the core of women, in my opinion, is if I wait for her to put her hand out, her respect and desire for me drops massively. Because I'm just another freaking little boy who needs her to take the first step. Now, it doesn't mean I'm more important. It doesn't mean that my. Like, whatever. It just means that I need to take the first step. I need to put the hand out there. And I think that's where men are kind of confused right now, is like, what does it mean to be a leader, take the first step and sacrifice? And I think that opens the door for beautiful conversation, beautiful connection, and relationship.
Joe (44:46):
So, yeah, I have to reframe it always as, like, thank God I don't have to wait on her.
Ned Schaut (44:51):
There you go.
Joe (44:52):
You know, like, if I can. If I give her a little and she gives me tenfold back, how cool of an arrangement is that versus, like, oh, I have to wait till she. She does something, and then I'll respond. I'll wait forever, you know, and so I can be resentful about it and be like, why don't I have to go first? Or I could be like, how cool that all I have to do is give her a little attention, and then she's gonna glow back. All this love and Affection on me. You know, it's a pretty cool arrangement. It's just easy to get childish, like you said, and wait like a little boy for mommy to come and get me.
Ned Schaut (45:21):
Yep, exactly. We don't need another mom, so we need a wife. We need a queen, but we gotta treat her that way.
Joe (45:26):
Yep. And it's a. I think a huge transition for. For me was I wrote a blog, how Father help Me Grow up, which is like, now that, you know, my wife, who I did, you know, I was pretty independent, I thought, until we had an actual baby and I suddenly all her mommy energy went to the actual baby and I got no more of it. That I was like, wow. There were some places where I thought of her as my mom. There were some places where I wasn't independent. And there's a emotion, there's a grief there of letting go and then also growing up and being like, I got to step up and be my own.
(45:56):
My own parent of my own little child and my actual child and support my wife, you know, that in those early days is fairly helpless and that I can be resentful about that and get. Drive myself to exhaustion, or I can embrace it and say, this is. I'm going to rise up to be the man I was meant to be here.
Ned Schaut (46:14):
So good. And like, what a great opportunity. Like, isn't life beautiful? How cool.
Joe (46:20):
It's like the best opportunity. It's like fatherhood is a spiritual practice, you know, and a path of light enlightenment is what it can be. It doesn't have to be. It's easy to keep him from dying. It's very. It's very hard to become spiritually enlightened. But anything in between is like, what the opportunity is.
Ned Schaut (46:38):
A lot of men miss it. And that's really. I think, at my core is the world would look different if more men knew who they were as a father. Because if you look at all the statistics of, like, people in jail and. And people who are struggling with all. You name it, you name it. Any of our global national issues. If fathers were present, fathers were engaged, fathers knew who they were, all that stuff would dramatically decrease. Dramatically.
Joe (47:02):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm hoping this. We have a new generation of kids and fathers that will. We'll get to see the fruits of. So men like you, what you're doing and out there. So. Yeah. So this. This book's awesome. You're writing one about your daughter.
Ned Schaut (47:15):
Yeah. So this is what I would tell people is, you know, a lot of men like what you're doing right now. A lot of men are not invited into fatherhood. So I wrote this book strictly as a. As an opportunity for somebody to give it as a gift. So if somebody's a new dad, if you hand them a book with Joe or my face on the COVID of a book, like, 12 Steps to Be a Great Dad. No, no one is going to read it. No one will read it if you tell them, you know, go. You know, the book was designed specifically to be very simple. Hand it, hey, welcome to fatherhood. I thought you'd enjoy this. And reading it to your kid over the. The years, that's.
(47:54):
That's why I did this, was because I didn't feel like men had just a simple rite of passage. And this is simple, right? But a lot of times we'll be like, oh, dude, you're a dad now. We. We might make some jokes about it, but if. If I walked up to you, Joe, the day you had your kid, and I put my hand on your shoulder as another man, and I was like, joe, you're going to be a great dad, bro. You were made for this.
Joe (48:15):
That.
Ned Schaut (48:15):
That's all you would need. It's all you would need to step up to the plate and go, okay, that's who I am now. But a lot of us new dads don't have anybody doing that. This book was designed to be a token for that moment. Right? That's what it was designed for. So this one, the first one I wrote was a father son. It's great. I love it, very fun. But I've had a father daughter one ready for probably 18 months. I've made a couple of tweaks on it, and I'm going to be putting it out in the next probably six months. Six. Six months. Months or less. And so I was trying to do some different things with it, and I'm just like, you know what? I just need to get it out there. So I think it's better.
Joe (48:54):
Well, this one's great. I read it to my daughter. I just made the gender neutral pronouns.
Ned Schaut (48:58):
I made it work.
Joe (48:59):
De. Gendered it, you know, in real time, and it worked fine. All of it's just as true for my daughter. She's in my sidecar, you know, my motorcycle. And we'll put a little link in the show notes to the book with the. With a discount code, and then we'll definitely promote the new one when. When it comes out. I can't wait to see that. But, you know, I always. I always like to. To wrap up with what you Wish you'd known as before you became a dad. What you know now, what you wish you'd know.
Ned Schaut (49:23):
What I wish I knew when I first became a dad was to surround myself with like minded people. Surround myself with some other dads who really wanted to engage in just going all in with family. And so if I would do something different, it would be A, that and it would be B, be to not put such an emphasis on work and to just lean into the season of life that I was in.
Joe (49:46):
Yeah. People say you sort of lose your non kid friends after you have a kid, but you gain all these new friends because you're desperate and your kid now has friends and their parents. And so it's kind of like your community kind of turns over in a way. You were so young at the time that is that basically what happened that you had to become friends.
Ned Schaut (50:04):
It took a few years before anybody my age had kids. So were kind of like the young people with kids. And maybe that's why I felt that way of like there wasn't anybody to surround myself with that was kind of in the same season as me. But I will say I did do this well and that is I did find mentors who were a season or two ahead of me. And I still do that now. And I think that's critically important is to, you know, if you're married 3rd 20 years, find somebody who's been married 30. If you've got, you know, elementary kids, school kids, go make a friend with a dad who has middle school kids. Like get somebo speaking into your life who's just a little bit ahead of you.
Joe (50:41):
There's lots of cool parent support groups and you know, when I about three months in, I was about at collapse period and realized that I just felt really isolated and had a few friends with kids, but still. So we found this parenting group that had they paired you with parents of kids the same age and you could kind of enter it at any point. And we just went to those and it was called Partners in parenting we have in Austin. But there's a lot of those around and so I always recommend like get out, find other parents, similar age range, you know, or people who do like birth or doula groups. Sometimes they can follow those posts. Post birth. Yeah. Getting that community is key. It's so easy to get isolated. Yeah. Where else can we learn about your stuff?
Ned Schaut (51:22):
Yeah, so I mean podcast is really kind of where I'm living the most fatherhood field notes. So I put out an interview on Tuesdays, and then I put out my own personal thoughts, what I'm going through, what I'm learning with my own kids on Fridays. And I really enjoy doing that. And that's really where most of my material is.
Joe (51:38):
Awesome. We'll put a link to that in there. So. Yeah. Well, thanks so much, Ned. Appreciate you zooming in from Hawaii out there and dropping all.
Ned Schaut (51:46):
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
Joe (51:47):
Absolutely. Thanks, everybody, and stay dedicated.
I think is that guys. I think guys are getting better at it. Especially like this podcast is a great example. But I think because there's such a clear rite of passage for the mother, that men tend to step back and not give their opinion and not get engaged. So what happens is mom decides everything for the nursery. Mom decides how we're going to have the baby. Mom decides how we're going to feed the baby. Mom decides. And go down the line. I think some guys wake up and their kids in middle school and they realize they weren't really a part of any of these decisions, and so they. They don't have this deep relational connection with their kid, and then they just continue to lean into work and they miss this.
(00:39):
And I will tell you that the mother and the child needs you just as much like the kid needs the dad just as much as the mother. Right. But at what point do we realize that sometimes I think, not that it's too late, but it was missed opportunities beforehand.
Joe (00:54):
Yeah. And so finding. Finding ways to engage. I mean, a lot of those that you're describing are decisions that have to be made. Welcome to daddicated, Joe, the new dad's guide to the upending and transformational experience of becoming a new dad. Today, I'm really excited to have Ned Schout on the show. Ned is an author, podcast host, and passionate advocate for fatherhood. Ned is a proud husband and father of ages 12 to 18. He's driven to master the craft of fatherhood and share his journey through his podcast, fatherhood field notes, books and journals, social media platforms, coaching programs, and his recent children's book, the Adventures in Fatherhood. This book literally brought me to tears reading it to my daughter.
(01:38):
And he really integrates his Christian faith into his messaging, often even using scripture as a source of lessons and how men can be present, loving and engaged fathers who can shape a better future. So, Ned, I was really excited to be connected to you by Jason, the founder of Malk. I know you guys are both in the blanking on the name of the fatherhood group that I need to join. Front row dads. Yes. And so, yeah, he sent me your book and, you know, like I said, it just brought me to tears. I was like, I gotta have this guy on the show. He clearly knows what's up and been really devouring some of your content.
Ned Schaut (02:12):
Cool, man. Thanks so much for having me. Looking forward to talk fatherhood with you.
Joe (02:15):
Yeah, for sure. So tell me how you got to the place of wanting to become a dad.
Ned Schaut (02:23):
I think I'd always wanted to be a dad. I really enjoyed playing outside with my own dad. He was very adventurous with my brother and I. And so it was always a thing I wanted to be a dad. I wanted to wait till I was like 25 or something. But on my one year anniversary, my wife handed me a gift box. And I thought it was a watch or a bracelet. I wasn't too sure what was in this thing. And it was a pregnancy test. I'm like, what's this thermometer doing in this box? And what am I supposed to do with it? So I got married at 21, found out at 22, we're having our first kid. So it was like I was excited, but also it took me a little bit of time to go, this is happening sooner than I had anticipated.
Joe (03:03):
Yeah. So you weren't opposed to being a dad someday? You just weren't really planning at 21?
Ned Schaut (03:09):
Sure. I was thinking 25, like, we would kind of do business in life and whatnot. And then. But. But then it was like, all right, we're having one. And then made sense for them to be, you know, two years apart. So then we had another. And then when the second one was four months old, it was the old, whoops, you're pregnant. And there's twins in there. So, you know, I had four under the age of four by 26 years old. Yeah. Fast.
Joe (03:34):
Wow. Yeah. And your hair is not great.
Ned Schaut (03:37):
Pretty gray.
Joe (03:38):
It's. Yeah, it's not all the gray. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. So, yeah. So tell me about that experience of, you know, you discovered your dad, now you're pregnant. What was that like for you? What was your role?
Ned Schaut (03:50):
Yeah, you know, I think I go back to this a lot because it's like, so obvious for a woman that there's this rite of passage. And that's really what led me to the Adventure of Fatherhood book. And kind of a lot of my fatherhood content I wanted to create is there's this rite of passage. I mean, it's wild, right? A woman gets pregnant, she grows a human being inside her body, then she pushes this human out of her body, and then she feeds it with her body. It's like, okay, there's clearly a rite of passage here. And I think men, you know, we are designed to provide and protect. But what does that really mean? Especially as like an American, you know, what am I doing? So I put my head down and went to work.
(04:30):
Like, when we had our first kid, I was 23 years old and all I knew is like go work. So I was literally back to work three days later. So like that's something I would change now. But we had Brooklyn on a Friday and I was back to work on a Monday. And it's still one of those things that it's kind of my wife like jokingly holds it over my head but I didn't know what else to do other than I better go hunt for some food and bring it back to the house. And so we all have this innate provider and protector and I, I didn't have anybody clearly explain to me what that meant as a 23 year old new father.
Joe (05:09):
Sure. And you've been through the pregnancy journey now three times.
Ned Schaut (05:13):
We have five kids, so four pregnancies.
Joe (05:15):
Five kids. So yeah, four pregnancies. So lots of pregnancies. So tell me about what you've learned through all that and as your role in pregnancy, what does a man do to serve a pregnant wife, to be a part of that?
Ned Schaut (05:26):
Well, first off, I think my wife is super freaking hot when she's pregnant. So I love my wife pregnant. I wish we could have more kids. I mean she'd do it. I would, I would game on. But through the process I think that yes there is the role of provide which does mean, you know, if that's the way that your household does it is like go make money to feed the family. But your role is really to provide so much more, I think stability, security, peace and environment of safety. Not just safe, like do I have my AR and I'm ready to shoot anybody who comes through the door. Like that's great. But are you there to protect your wife's heart? Her. Her. And that could even be from family. Right.
(06:09):
And I think that as a young father that was an area I messed up a little bit is really understanding how to set healthy boundaries with close family to make sure I'm creating an environment for my wife to be able to be a young mother. So when if I were to talk to a, the NED at 23, it's really to be present with your wife, to be there, to be engaged, to be in the books, to be in the classes, just to really enjoy the journey of this little human growing. And I mean even when Sarah was pregnant with Brooklyn, I mean I talked to the belly. I remember putting my headphones in her belly button, playing some Bob Marley and just like starting to build a relationship with Brooklyn and each of my kids as she was pregnant with them.
(06:52):
But I think what an opportunity to Be a part of the whole process and then really support mama in this adventure of growing a human being.
Joe (07:00):
Yeah. It's interesting. You started with how. How hot you find her as pregnant. It's so interesting to me that women think that they're not. That somehow pregnancy is. Makes them unattractive. Most men I know find it very beautiful, and their woman's pregnant. So did you tell her a lot? Did you show her? How did she feel?
Ned Schaut (07:16):
Oh, yeah. I think it was finding the right time. Right. So you've got these trimesters. You've got parts where she's. She's not really into you, and then there's parts where she, you know, is into you. So I think also maximizing that understanding of. Of setting your needs aside a bit. And I think that I failed at that when Brooklyn was firstborn, right? So you're first born. There's this period where she is not wanting to get intimate at all. And I'm, you know, as a young dad, young knucklehead guy, I kind of was a dick to be a. You know, I didn't understand it. But now looking back and through multiple pregnancies, you really start to understand how to walk with her.
(07:58):
And I think that's kind of like, the unfortunate thing is, as men, we don't necessarily have anybody kind of guiding us, which is the beautiful thing of, like, what you're doing right here. Right. Is some dude could listen to a bunch of interviews with people about this season and have a better understanding stepping into it versus just learning from failing, which is, you know, what? We all get to share so we.
Joe (08:22):
Can learn from your failing. How are you a dick? Like, what was some dickish things?
Ned Schaut (08:26):
Like, I'm expecting that, you know, like, intimacy was going to be the same following this and. And quicker than I would have, you know, like, I would like it to get back. Back to the groove quicker versus, like, holy, there's a lot. Can I concuss on your podcast, I'm assuming you had Tucker Max. Anything's. Anything's gay. Anyways, I think I didn't have this u understanding of, like, really what she just went through, right? Like, really understanding. I mean, I was there, I'll tell you, when I saw Brooklyn be born, it was the most amazing thing. And I do think that guys should. Young fathers should start to look at it like that. Not this like, oh, I can't watch, or, oh, it's. It's. You know, this is ruined. Like, like, dude, wrong mindset. Wrong mindset.
(09:12):
The most beautiful, amazing Connected thing to creation that we get to be a part of. We get to be. We get to see this. We get to. To eng. I didn't fully understand the beauty behind it all. To. To embrace it and honor and respect, like, what her body just went through.
Joe (09:29):
Yeah. Yeah, thanks. And so just before we move into that period of post after pregnancy to birth, anything else you want to say about the pregnancy experience, how you supported her, what tips you have for dads with pregnant wives?
Ned Schaut (09:41):
I think the tip I would give is, I think as young men, even now I'm 41, there's still this draw to put effort into my work. There's this constant draw, right? Because there's. There's reward, right. Especially if you're driven, there's like, reward. The thing I would love for men to really understand is just to be in the season that you're in, right? So if. If you're in this young, married young pregnancy phase, like, be there versus when the kid's born, when the kid's five, when I can take this kid camping or hunting or whatever it is you want to do, like, be in that season. So if that's watching stupid movies till all hours of the night or eating ice cream or it is that your.
(10:24):
Your spouse is, like, craving running Sarah, I would have to run to some Mexican restaurant and get this chips and salsa. That's what she wanted, was this. Chips and salsa. Be in that. Because before you know it, that season's over. And then you're just reflecting on it, right? And. And you never reflect back and go, man, I spent so much time doing that with her. It's always like, I wish I would have enjoyed that season a little bit more. I wish I would have been a little bit more present. And I think that is true. In each of the stages, you know, you're pregnant, you have a baby, you have, you know, young toddlers, like elementary school, middle school, high school. And let me just say this for guys is what I think is that guys, I think guys are getting better at it.
(11:04):
Especially, like this podcast is a great example. But I think because there's such a clear rite of passage for the mother, that men tend to step back and not give their opinion and not get engaged. So what happens is mom decides everything for the nursery. Mom decides how we're going to have the baby. Mom decides how we're going to feed the baby. Mom decides. And go down the line, I think some guys wake up and their kids in middle school and they realize they weren't really a part of any of these decisions. And so they don't have this deep relational connection with their kid. And then they just continue to lean into work and they miss this. And.
(11:41):
And I will tell you that the mother and the child needs you just as much like the kid needs the dad just as much as the mother. Right. But at what point do we realize that? Sometimes I think, not that it's too late, but it was missed opportunities beforehand.
Joe (11:56):
Yeah. And so finding. Finding ways to engage. I mean, a lot of those that you're describing are decisions that have to be made. And obviously mom's going to have a strong input, but she also maybe doesn't want to be left on her own to make it by herself. How do you navigate?
Ned Schaut (12:12):
And I would just say it's like, be engaged with it. It. Right. Like, maybe you don't have to say, I don't like that car seat. We really need to go with this one. But be engaged with it. Not just walking through being like, I don't care. You choose. Or you go with your friends. Like, maybe on some instances, that's great. But. But to be engaged in the kid life and in the mother's decisions, I think is really important. I think it's what she wants. I mean, when you think about being a provider and a protector, it's. Are you. Are you engaged in all of this? Not just.
Joe (12:42):
You're not controlling.
Ned Schaut (12:44):
No, but.
Joe (12:45):
And you're not checked out of it. It's this engage. You know, your job is not just.
Ned Schaut (12:49):
To bring a paycheck. I think we get caught up in what does it mean to be a good steward. And I think even as like a, you know, you brought up my faith is important to me. I think I've had this new realization that am I really the provider? Like, I'm kind of wrestling with that word of provider. And I'm not saying I'm not supposed to go make a paycheck, but. But I'm not. I'm not the one making the apple. Right. The apple's out there. It's made. How am I stewarding that apple? So I think stewardship, if men could lean into that, like, how am I stewarding my relationship with my wife? How am I stewarding this house? Our resources, our finances, our energy? How am I stewarding that?
(13:25):
And that means that I'm looking at it from a grateful mindset, like, this is a gift. This is a gift that I want to take care of, and I want to nurture and grow. So I think that's what I'm leaning into is that in lieu of.
Joe (13:37):
The word provide, what did you have to, like, let go of or changed to allow yourself to become that steward.
Ned Schaut (13:44):
Funny. So I think what led me into wanting to talk about fatherhood in the first place is I had this dream, right? I was a youth pastor, and I had this dream that I was going to open this youth center. It was, like, since 18 years old, this is what I was going to do, is open a youth center. If you remember back to watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, there was, like, the Foot Clan secret hideout where they'd, oh, my God, skateboard and, like, oh, yeah. I mean, they were also smoking cigars at 13 and unpacking stolen goods. So that wasn't really the plan for the youth center, but, like, a place like that for teens to come to. That's what I wanted to make.
Joe (14:18):
And nice.
Ned Schaut (14:19):
It was at my fingertips in 2014, and then it just fell apart. And what I do to feed the family is I sell insurance. It's like the most unsexy thing. If you knew me that it's just not what you'd say Ned probably does as health insurance. But I think that God has had me in that role so that my identity didn't become what I do. Right. I'm not Ned, the youth leader of this epic youth center where millions of kids come to. So when that I'm. I'm. I'm just Ned, right? And so I think I had to let go of some of these expectations I had for what I was going to do with my life. And during that time, when that fell apart, I realized that as a man, the things I really wanted were to feel valued, needed, respected, valued.
(15:02):
And that I was leaving a mark on this earth. And what I had been doing is looking outside my front door to find it. And those desires that are core to me as being a man could all be found if I just turned around and looked inside my home. It doesn't necessarily matter what I do out in the world. I could sell insurance or I could have an epic youth center. Either way, my first and foremost priority should be my wife, should be my kids, and that's where I should find the fulfillment of being valued, needed, respected, valued, and leave a mark on this earth. And so that was the shift for me. And then I think, because of that realizing, like, wow, my wife is a gift. My kids are a gift. I need to steward it.
Joe (15:41):
Well, no, but ultimately, your dream of the youth center had to fail.
Ned Schaut (15:45):
I would say so.
Joe (15:46):
Really?
Ned Schaut (15:47):
Yes.
Joe (15:47):
Have to make that hard.
Ned Schaut (15:49):
It had to.
Joe (15:50):
That was the message God was sending you, basically, was he had to look inward. Yeah.
Ned Schaut (15:54):
It had to fail. If it didn't, then I'd probably still be pursuing that.
Joe (15:58):
And then you. And you had to see that failure eventually as an opportunity, which is very hard to do.
Ned Schaut (16:03):
I took a whole year, and I really had an identity crisis. I remember going to. We lived in Northern California at the time, and I remember going to the beach several times on kind of personal retreats, just going, like, what the frick am I doing with my life? Like, what am I doing? And that's where it's like, dude, you're missing it, bro. You're missing it. You have these five little kids at home. And there was a big shift, so I stopped being a youth pastor, too, because I was like, wait a second. I'm putting so much energy and effort, and I don't want this to sound bad, but into other people's kids and, like, jockeying, like, calling teenagers, like, why aren't you coming? Come, come hang out. Come, come hang out.
(16:34):
When I've, like, got these five little kids at home who want every second that I have. So why wouldn't they get my very best creativity, my very best energy? And so I stopped doing all that, and I started putting all that energy into my family.
Joe (16:49):
Wow. Yeah. And I know, you know, society really values the output or the numbers or the productivity or the. How many teens came to your program in this case? So how did you cope with that idea that, oh, these five kids and my attention on them is enough?
Ned Schaut (17:04):
I mean, I'll. I think I still wrestle with it. Right. Like, my business is fairly successful. And so, I mean, even journaling the other day, I. I journaled. Don't let your business take the best part of your leadership like that needs to be given to your home. Because, like, okay, my. My insurance agency. Where's it going to be in 100 years? I don't know. Maybe it'll exist, maybe it won't. But my kids, kids, kids are going to exist. And what am I doing today to have impact on those human beings? Because. Because that ultimately is my responsibility. There's no other man who's responsible for that but me. So I need to take that really serious that it's not just about me in this lifetime. And, like, did I get a sale today or what did I. Whatever, whatever. It's.
(17:47):
If you were to see my family when I'm gone, it doesn't mean they'll be perfect. They Won't be what does perfect even mean? But did I do what I could to love and serve them well?
Joe (17:57):
And even just asking that question and prioritizing that it sounds like is a huge part of the battle. What else would you say are sort of ways you lead, ways you steward, general principles to follow?
Ned Schaut (18:08):
So are you asking like, how do I lead in my home?
Joe (18:12):
Yes.
Ned Schaut (18:12):
So I think it's shifted. Right. Like anytime you kind of get it figured out, your kids move from one stage to another. Right. Like I've got a 12 year old who thinks she's 21 and then I've got four teenagers. And so it constantly shifts. Right. But in this current season, what I would say is we have a monthly family meeting. We have Sunday night family dinner. We have, you know, like this morning I get up and I make their lunches, I make their breakfast. We do a little devotion at 7am before they head off to school. There are family core values, family vision that we're kind of asking the kids the question. And I have people ask me like, well, when do you start this?
(18:50):
And I think if you start it when they're brand new, mom and dad are having family meeting, family monthly meeting, whatever it is you want to do, it just becomes a part of what you do. But ultimately I think that the way you lead is you don't define yourself by what you do outside the home. And you're constantly reflecting, how can I love and serve these people and know them? Like, what does it mean to know someone?
Joe (19:13):
So, yeah, the family meetings are great. When my wife and I've had, you know, we call them business meetings, like house business meetings. I'm surprised how many couples don't do this, that you just, you know, end up talking about it over dinner, talking about it on the fly. But it's like, you know, then you're missed time relating or you're fighting or just stuff's never dec. And so this, you said you do it monthly with the whole family, with the kids and everyone together. At what age did you start involving the kids in those meetings?
Ned Schaut (19:41):
I'd say when they were between 7 and 10 is about when we started. Yeah.
Joe (19:46):
Okay.
Ned Schaut (19:47):
But prior to that we would do like weekly devotion as a family. Right. So it wasn't out of the ordinary to do something where we get together and we talk about something intentionally or do something intentional. So they're sort of used to me doing something.
Joe (20:02):
Are you, do you have your family vision handy? I'd love to hear that. If you're Willing to.
Ned Schaut (20:06):
Yeah. So the family vision is really, I believe that our family is. Is here to protect and nurture the essence of what it means to be a beautifully messy family. And, and what that means is it's nice. Family's just messy, man. I mean, there's things this year that's like, oh, my God. Beautifully messy. Right. And I think that there are so many things, whether you want to get political or you don't, there are just things pulling the family apart. And it could just be this kids has this sports and this kid has this school. Like, there's just. There's so many things jockeying for a time that it's very hard to. To. To. You have to be really intentional if you want to be a collective family.
(20:45):
Like, when your kids are little, it's really easy to have family dinner every night and have a bedtime routine, but when you have three teenagers with jobs, a kid who's in college, you know, and sports, it's like, I've locked down. Sunday night is family dinner. This is it. The one.
Joe (21:01):
The one.
Ned Schaut (21:01):
Yeah. And so I'm constantly fighting for how do we. How do we protect and nurture what it means to be a family? Because I want my kids to take that value into their own families. And then if you. If you came and looked at the Shout family in 150 years, when I'm long gone on, my hope is that although there is going to be a mess, that. That it's beautifully messy and they're still holding on to what it means to be a family.
Joe (21:27):
Yeah, it's nice. How did you create that vision, Chachi?
Ned Schaut (21:31):
BT no, just sitting and thinking about what matters most. Like when I die, what do I hope's true when I'm laying in my, you know, the bed, they give a perfect way to die. Right. Laying in my bed at home, and my kids and grandkids are all around me. What do I hope to be true? And that's the thing that I hope to be true. And then if you're to break it down to a daily mission, the Jewish culture has this prayer, the Shema. This is what they teach their kids, is love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. And so if you were to be in my house for a week, anytime that we say a prayer, whether it's in the morning or in the evening, you would hear that.
(22:05):
You would hear, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. And so practically, what does that mean for our family is. Is it ends with as you love yourself so like, you can't really love anybody or do anything unless you can first accept who's in that skin. And that's you. Right. Which is hard to do as like a teenage girl. And. And so I got four of those. Right? So it's this. You are beautiful, you are loved. You matter, you belong. You gotta love yourself. Then you gotta love your. Yeah.
Joe (22:35):
So you channeled the vision for the family and then kind of shared it with them and they embraced it from there.
Ned Schaut (22:41):
Embrace is loose, right? I mean, I don't think my K are like, dad, when's the next family meeting? We can't wait. I wouldn't say it's quite like that. But when they're there, they'll engage. Right. Nobody wants to be pulled away from whatever it is they want to do, but when they're there, they engage. We actually just did like a two day family retreat together, which was pretty epic. But I paid them each to be there.
Joe (23:04):
Oh, wow. Wow. And that'll work, I guess. And they showed up fully. You don't feel like paying them anyway, there.
Ned Schaut (23:12):
My son halfway through the first day because he's very, he's 15 and he's very much like my time. My time. And I'm like, you know, but he's transitioning from like boy mindset to man mindset. So we're working on it. But I'm like, hey, bro, you are not showing up where you're earning this. So either show up and earn it or don't. And you're not going to get the, you know, we moved into a new house, so let's just, you know, like, my strategy is I gave them each 250 bucks to do whatever they want with for their bedroom. So it's kind of like it's already gonna be spending some money on helping them with their new rooms. But it was like an incentive to go like, hey, show up.
(23:48):
And I, I want to respect and value your time and this matters to me enough to just do this. So. No, it was really good.
Joe (23:55):
But you felt that even if the only reason he came was to get the money, that being there benefited him as well as the rest of the family and that was. It didn't matter. He didn't have to come because he wanted to. He just being there was.
Ned Schaut (24:06):
Yes. And I think that works for them.
Joe (24:08):
The reason.
Ned Schaut (24:09):
Yeah, because it's a good question, right? Is like, is he just here because of that? Maybe that's why he shows. But he showed up because. And became present in it.
Joe (24:18):
Yeah. Still. Still valued. And even if not for him, but for the rest of the family to have him there. Yeah, it was valuable. So. Well, talk to me about. So we talked about pregnancy. You have the birth. You really sounds like you really support men being actively involved in the birth. What is your role in the birth? I mean, obviously witnessing it and being part of that magic is huge. What did you actually do from a practical perspective?
Ned Schaut (24:37):
So good. So, like, we had Brooklyn, and it's like, the first time is so barbaric and wild. Right. And then Violet, our second one, was totally ready it. Right. Like, you know what to expect. Then the twins. We had twins. This was like, new, right, Dude?
Joe (24:53):
Whole other level.
Ned Schaut (24:54):
And it was super cool. So my birthday's Fourth of July, and we got to the hospital July 3rd at, like, 11, and we're like, please help these kids stay in there. So they were born on 4th of July, boy and a girl. So I got. I got my boy and. And the twins on my birthday, which was super cool. Yeah, I think it's my 20, 26, 27, 28, maybe 28. All I know is I had all my kids before I was 30. But we taught. We call that the dark year. When the twins were born, we had four under four. And, like, were broke at the time, too. Like, were free cheese and milk from the government. My poor wife was, you know, standing in line getting formula at the grocery store. I did it once. It was.
(25:31):
It was not my favorite, but I was building our business, you know? But now we live in Hawaii and a great house, and life is great 15 years later. So what is the dad's role? I really looked at my role as being fully present, engaged with my wife. Like, what does she need? How can I be here for her? And I do think that as you are doing life with somebody at such an intimate level, you. You need to know your wife. But for me to be next to her and rub her forehead, hold her hand, or know when to stop touching her is really important. Right.
(26:02):
And a lot of times it's not even needing to say anything, but it's like, have you positioned yourself to be that one person that she trusts so much in the most vulnerable, wildly adventurous state that you're the one that she wants to be grasping your hand. She wants you touching her head, whatever it might be. But to me, that's. It is to be so in tune with who she is. And again. Right. I'm making it sound like I've got it nailed. I don't at all. We've been married 20 years, and I'm still working on discovering who my wife is. But to me, that's. The role is as present as you can be. And there, like, actually there, you know.
Joe (26:43):
It makes me think. My mom really taught me to receive or to take or to be served by women. Right? Like that kind of old school generation of, like, the girls serve and the boys, you know, receive in the household. That kind of old dynamic. And. And it's. It's sort of. I find it counter to our wiring that men, we really enjoy serving. We actually really like giving, serving, being well used. But it was. But it is a. It is a transition from, like, my woman is here to. To serve me or please me, to, like, no, I. She is incapacitated. I mean, her whole job is this baby. Carrying it, birthing it, raising it. And now I have to risk to give without any auto. Aut. Automatic feedback. Like, there's.
(27:26):
At best, she doesn't yell at me, you know, like, there's not a lot of, like, for that period of time is tough. So how did you. If you were really young, I mean, in your 20s, still basically kind of a late adolescent, how did you make that shift from consuming a woman's attention to becoming certain?
Ned Schaut (27:40):
I think I'm still learning, right? It's like, I think that's the wrestle is. Is we are all selfish to some level. And I think that's the. The goal is to become unselfish and. And like, yes. Turning that patriarchal pyramid upside down. Right. Instead of, like, serving me and my world, like, are you the center of your universe? And I. And I mean, maybe we all wrestle with it, but I wrestle. Like, am I making this about me, or am I looking to what the needs are of those around me? And I think if you can make that shift, I mean, that's. That's what's. That's what's said, husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church. And that is like, go die on a cross, bro. And that's every day, right? Like, that's. How do I. How do I walk into a room? Room?
(28:23):
Because you could walk into a room two ways. I could walk in and I could go, all right, what's here for me? Like, why am I here? Why am I here? What's in this for me? Or I can walk into a room and I go, okay, why am I Here. What can I do to love and serve whatever's in this room? So it's the same question. It's just asking it with a completely different motive. And so I would tell you, honestly, is that I'm still wrestling with that today. I'm still journaling about that today. It's like reflecting on. On did I love and serve or. And where am I? Full of shit. And I need to see other people's needs above my own.
(28:56):
I think, again, if you were to go back to being a young father and having a baby in the house, be in that season and don't just go work. Don't just go work, go. And how can you love, how can you serve? How can you be a support? How can you sit there and just hold the baby? Talk. I always tell guys, like, man, I remember talking to a guy recently. I'm like, how often do you hold your baby? And he's like, oh, not that often. Like, he's kind of, like, waiting until his kid was able to hang with him. And I'm like, dude, you're missing it. Like, dude, just go hold that kid. And. And you know what? Shame on. I don't want to say shame on. That's the wrong word. Dudes need to step in and hold the baby. Right?
(29:31):
Like, but mom's also got to trust that the baby's going to be all right and, like, let dad come in and. And feed the bottle and hold and change a diaper. I mean, I've heard of guys never changing a diaper. Come on, dude. Come on. On, like, be involved in those things.
Joe (29:47):
Yeah, and. And you're. You're right. Sometimes moms have resistance to it, but ultimately, dads, if you're insistent on holding the baby and changing a diaper, she's not gonna stop, you know, like, it is on us to help her feel safe enough to let you and say, hey, I got this. I know how to do this, you know, versus, oh, she won't let me. So now I don't have to do it.
Ned Schaut (30:05):
Yeah, don't let that be a cop out. And then don't be a bitch about it and be like, she won't let me. So I guess I'm just not. Not going to. It's like, no, go earn the right. You have what it takes. That kid needs you. Even if it's talking to the kid, connecting with the kid, holding the kid. Like, my gosh, it matters.
Joe (30:21):
Yeah. So let's go to that first three months after birth. They call it the fourth trimester. Or the postpartum period. You know, mom and baby are still essentially one. You know, they're still kind of the same person for a while. What is, what is your role? What. How did you serve in those. In those early times?
Ned Schaut (30:37):
I mean, it's so wild. I remember so clearly when they, I mean, dude, I wore a back. I'm wearing a backwards hat right now. I wore a backwards hat during the, during Brooklyn being born. Like, I mean, these nurses probably thought this kid was screwed. I remember leaving the hospital and just being like, really? You're just going to hand this baby to me? I remember driving so careful all the way home, right. We're in my truck, my wife's in the back with Brooklyn. And I, I just remember, like, this is so crazy. Like, you can't cross the street on your own. Wherever you want you. There's laws for this yet. They're going to send you home with a baby and just kind of good luck, you know, like, you'll figure it out.
(31:16):
So that first three months, I'm sure if I were to go out and bring my wife in that her perspective may be a bit different than mine. I think that my, in what I did was go to work. What I could have done was probably just be home a bit more and support a bit more. If I reflect back on that season, I remember it being very hard for my wife because we didn't have family where were living. We were living in Southern California at the time. And so I, I do remember if I go from like the 30,000 foot view, that what became apparent and very important to my wife was that she needed to be near family.
(31:49):
So it didn't happen in the first three months, but it did happen fairly quickly where we decided to make a move back to a town where family was because I knew that was important to her and important for her raising our kids. That family needed to be nearby to be a part of it.
Joe (32:04):
Yeah, yeah. Takes a village in that way. You. So one of the things you did was help facilitate getting more help.
Ned Schaut (32:11):
Yeah. But in the first three months, like, if I look back, I mean, that was 18 years ago. If, if I, of course I'm going to look at my show up is much more, you know, like a movie and beautiful. But my hope is that if I were to go back and see myself in that time, that it was holding Brooklyn, holding my wife and telling her how amazing she was, did I do it enough? Probably not. If I think back to an encouragement to a dude I would say nothing else matters for this season. Just love on her, look her in the eyes, adore her, both mom and baby.
Joe (32:41):
So simple, but so powerful. And it's vulnerable. I guess it's hard to do because it's. We're not. We're rewarded for making money checking boxes, not for looking at people's eyes.
Ned Schaut (32:50):
It's like, it's like holding on to that. Like, dude, I'm going to work for the next 40 years, right? You have a kid at 25 or whatever, you're going to work for the next 40 years.
Joe (32:59):
Years.
Ned Schaut (32:59):
Your kid is going to be gone in 20. Like, having an understanding that the seasons move quick and that you're in a season right now you don't really like. I always think back to two things that I think of is that movie with Adam Sandler called Click. So great movie because he, like, clicks. He has this remote and he clicks through his life and be. Because he's just trying to make money, make money. And then he. He gets there. He clicks through all the important stuff and then he's super rich, but everybody hates him. And then. And then the end of the Office. Like, my favorite show is Andy says, I wish you knew you were in the good old days when it was the good old days. Some, Some line like that. And you know, like, my daughter's at college now.
(33:38):
She just graduated high school but six months ago and is at college. Like, the ship is sailed. It's different now. Still going to spend a ton of time with her. But understanding, you know, there's some statistic. And I think something like 90% of the time you spend with your kid is going to before they move out. So having that mentality or, you know, there's a book out there, the 18 summers. Like, okay, what am I doing with this time that I have with these gifts?
Joe (34:02):
Yeah. They say the majority of the time you'll know your kids will be as an adult. The most of the years will be knowing them as an adult. But that's interesting that the most of the time you spend is actually when they're little, but it's actually very short.
Ned Schaut (34:15):
It's very short.
Joe (34:16):
So, you know, they say the days are long, but the years are.
Ned Schaut (34:19):
And those seasons, right? Like, I mean, the season of being a young parent with a baby, or an parent with a baby, whatever. It's such a beautiful time. It's such a beautiful time. So I think being in it and understanding that. And I think one thing, if I would give a Tip to anybody is to journal. I think journaling is really helpful to kind of bring you into the moment of life.
Joe (34:40):
Yeah. So the, the four under four here. Tell us how you got through that. Tips and tricks for surviving that level of.
Ned Schaut (34:48):
We were broke. Mention that my mom was very helpful to come and help Sarah. I had three jobs at the time. I do. This was really important. I think that it was like a breaking point for us, like not connecting and I don't know, I'm sure I got advice from somebody of dating, you know, like making sure to go on dates and we would go and we would have somebody come to our house and we would go buy one Starbucks coffee and then we would go sit in a car or our car and just sit in the car. Just be together and share a coffee and probably because were broke, but that was like what we could do was that.
Joe (35:26):
Wow.
Ned Schaut (35:27):
We call it the dark year. Don't remember a lot of it. We see photos. But it definitely bonded us as a family. Like having five kids relatively close ages and it really bonded us as a family. Like we're pretty tight.
Joe (35:42):
Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. How, how has it changed you? What kind of. What's it turned you into? Being a dad.
Ned Schaut (35:48):
My hope is that it has made me more self aware of what matters most. Most. Right. I. I think sometimes not like. I think sometimes if you have two kids or, or you like really have this grand plan of like okay, one kid and then the second kid. I think sometimes you can hang on to like the old Ned or the. Okay, I want to get back to you know, the boys softball league or like whatever. So I'll tell you, for me, in having four then five, like they are my life. So I, I put a lot of time and energy into them because a lot things there just wasn't the time for it. So they kind of, they had to fizzle out. Now I've. Now, I mean I do surf with my kids, skate with my kids, cross with my kids.
(36:33):
Like I ended up just doing the same stuff just with my kids. It's great. Like me and my daughter, we did this like two hour CrossFit event this weekend and we got first place in our division. It was epic. Like we beat. Yeah, it was so fun. So what it's turned me into is I think I'm still the same Ned. I'll say the bad parts is I do think that there's this level of responsibility. So my family sometimes teases me that there's Work Ned. And that there's fun Ned. And so I think I still wrestle with this. Like, were broke 15 years ago, so I gotta go. I gotta feed the family. I gotta feed the family. So I do think that there's this, you know, reminding myself, like, ned, you don't have to show up that way anymore.
(37:13):
But there's this still kind of, I need to go work to feed them. But on the good sides of me, I. I think that I am a fun, engaged dad with my kids.
Joe (37:21):
What do you think? There's, like, some. My myths about fatherhood, Things that you thought that were true that aren't true, or things that you hear other men assume.
Ned Schaut (37:28):
I think that the most ridiculous myth is, like, this, my life is over. Like, this. Like. Like, bro, your life's just beginning. And that's really. So the adventure of fatherhood book, you held up. Like, I wanted to create something that helped a dad see how epic it is to be a father. So, like, the book starts off, it's this dude on a motorcycle, no helmet, ripping through the desert. Badass, right? But then when he finds out he's having a kid, what does he do? Does he sell the motorcycle? No, he adds a sidecar, right? And so that's the thing is, like, bro, you get to go do the same rad stuff, but now you don't got to wait on stupid ass friends and call them and go do it. You get to do it with a human that's half you.
(38:08):
So what is it that you love? What is the adventure? And then. And then learning about this human, what is it that they love? You get to go do that with them and like, dude, how epic. So then. Then the book turns into. It's just a. It's a children's book, but it turns into 10 affirmations. Like, I will teach you this. I will show you that we will learn this together. And to me, the end of life, dude, that's what I want to do. Not that I have all these adventures with, like, just friends, but did I go teach and share and learn with. With human beings that I got to make? Like, dude, otherhood is the most amazing adventure alongside. And I'll say this for me, alongside pursuing a lifelong love. And that would be my wife.
(38:55):
Like, somebody asked me the other day, he's like, what do you ultimately, Ned? What do you want? Like, what do you want? And I was like, you know what? When I die, I want to be married to Sarah. Like, if that's the one thing that I am able to Accomplish. I don't think that there's anything else more important. And, and I don't think that there's a better gift I could give my kids. Like, I constantly tell my parents the greatest gift that they've given me is that they're still married 42 years later. And it's wild, dude. My dad is like liberal atheist and my mom is conservative Christian. Yet they found. It's wild. They found a common ground in family and a common ground in other things. So it's really a beautiful example that you can make things work. Anyway, sorry, I'm, I'm tangenting.
Joe (39:43):
That's amazing. I mean, I mean, how do you do it with the, with. I mean, you've got all these kids, you're working. How do you invest in the relationship? Give us some dad husband relationship advice.
Ned Schaut (39:52):
Here Is hard, bro. Marriage is hard. Marriage is messy. It is. It's a constant wrestle. It's a constant sacrifice. And I think she'd say the same thing. We just celebrated 20 years, you know, So a couple things. Yeah. A couple thoughts.
Joe (40:06):
Wow.
Ned Schaut (40:06):
Right now I'm rereading a book called the Meaning of Marriage by Tim Keller. Beautiful. Somebody should hand every new couple this book. Without a doubt. And so a couple tips. I pay attention to the time, right? So am I spending time with my wife? Do I know her? Do I care about what matters to her? Am I going on a date with her and that I could do better at? Do I know her ultimate, like, desires? Like, what are her ultimate desires? And then am I making an effort to do that? And I'll tell you, there are things that I have done over the last three years. So I'm just share this with you. I was driving to a front row dad's event.
(40:40):
I was in Utah and I'm driving and I'm like praying on my drive and I'm like, God, you know, like, prepare me for this trip and what do you want me to get out of it? And blah, blah. And clear as day, he's like, ned, all I really want from you is just put your wife first and then I'll take care of all everything else, like your businesses, like all that. I'll take care of all that stuff. Just put Sarah first. And that was three years ago. And I'll tell you, if you were to ask her today, am I doing that? I think she'd say that I'm continuing to move towards that. And so that is my prayer is that I. And my Desire is to. To make her my number one priority.
(41:15):
And so I was even talking about it with a friend yesterday. Like, what is it? What's a best friend? Like, what does it mean to have a best friend? And how is your spouse your best friend? What does that look like? So we're talking about that. So I think that ultimately you're. I'm never going to arrive. It's going to be this constant wrestling. That's life, right? That is life. Is. Am I in the conversation? Am I in the fight of that?
Joe (41:36):
Yeah. You know, I think my dad modeled for me that loving the family, serving the family was through action, was through service, doing stuff was through fixing broken things, making money, organizing trips, whatever. And my mom, all she really wanted was his attention. She wanted, you know, some affection and attention. Love her. And he was too busy doing all this stuff to give her that. So she was always unsatisfied and he was always resentful. Like, why are you unsatisfied? I work so hard. And so I really see that I'm wrestling with that, with. With my wife now is like, she just wants my attention. She just wants a little bit of tenderness. She wants me to ask her how she's doing. She wants me to hold her, which is so much easier than fixing all the broken shit, but also, like, way harder.
(42:19):
For some reason, I'd rather scurry around and exhaust myself doing stuff than to, like, just take the time and put a little tension on her. And I, I spend a little attention on her and she'll give that back to me tenfold, you know? But I, like, I get mad that I have to go first. Like, why can't she put digit on me first and then I'll put attention on her, you know, this kind of consumption model that I was talking about. And so it's like you said, it's just like making her first in that way. I think I tend to think of my daughter as first. And she's kind of jealous of that.
Ned Schaut (42:48):
Yeah. And I'll agree with that. And it's a great example. Okay, so just the other night, so we're going to Fiji for a friend's 40th coming up. Like, whatever. Coming up a few weeks. And I've been like, I want to bring the kids. And what she was hearing was, she's not fun enough for me to just go with her. Oh, bro. So like, this is like two nights ago, we're having dinner, and a friend who's going was like, oh, are you guys excited for Fiji? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I wish my kids were coming. And. But then she said it. She's like, oh, well, this is what I hear. And so I've been thinking about. I'm like, dang. Like, she is fun, and I want her to feel like, dude, I could just go have a freaking really sweet, fun time with her.
(43:27):
And so I think that's. That's what it is just being willing, you know, to. To. To reflect on that. I'm not saying every time I hear. Hear a criticism or something that I'm, like, jumping at the bit to, oh, I want to change. Right. But am I willing to be vulnerable? Which is something you brought up before and something you said too, which I think is really important in our current culture. You made the comment, like, why do I gotta go first? Right? And I think that's what we're missing is, like, there's this weird, masculine, feminine conversation, like, all this stuff, like, what does it all mean? And I think where I'm kind of at right now is like, if me and my wife are gonna dance, somebody has to just take the first step. Yeah. Or put out a hand.
(44:10):
Right, Put out a hand. And the thing is, if the core of women, in my opinion, is if I wait for her to put her hand out, her respect and desire for me drops massively. Because I'm just another freaking little boy who needs her to take the first step. Now, it doesn't mean I'm more important. It doesn't mean that my. Like, whatever. It just means that I need to take the first step. I need to put the hand out there. And I think that's where men are kind of confused right now, is like, what does it mean to be a leader, take the first step and sacrifice? And I think that opens the door for beautiful conversation, beautiful connection, and relationship.
Joe (44:46):
So, yeah, I have to reframe it always as, like, thank God I don't have to wait on her.
Ned Schaut (44:51):
There you go.
Joe (44:52):
You know, like, if I can. If I give her a little and she gives me tenfold back, how cool of an arrangement is that versus, like, oh, I have to wait till she. She does something, and then I'll respond. I'll wait forever, you know, and so I can be resentful about it and be like, why don't I have to go first? Or I could be like, how cool that all I have to do is give her a little attention, and then she's gonna glow back. All this love and Affection on me. You know, it's a pretty cool arrangement. It's just easy to get childish, like you said, and wait like a little boy for mommy to come and get me.
Ned Schaut (45:21):
Yep, exactly. We don't need another mom, so we need a wife. We need a queen, but we gotta treat her that way.
Joe (45:26):
Yep. And it's a. I think a huge transition for. For me was I wrote a blog, how Father help Me Grow up, which is like, now that, you know, my wife, who I did, you know, I was pretty independent, I thought, until we had an actual baby and I suddenly all her mommy energy went to the actual baby and I got no more of it. That I was like, wow. There were some places where I thought of her as my mom. There were some places where I wasn't independent. And there's a emotion, there's a grief there of letting go and then also growing up and being like, I got to step up and be my own.
(45:56):
My own parent of my own little child and my actual child and support my wife, you know, that in those early days is fairly helpless and that I can be resentful about that and get. Drive myself to exhaustion, or I can embrace it and say, this is. I'm going to rise up to be the man I was meant to be here.
Ned Schaut (46:14):
So good. And like, what a great opportunity. Like, isn't life beautiful? How cool.
Joe (46:20):
It's like the best opportunity. It's like fatherhood is a spiritual practice, you know, and a path of light enlightenment is what it can be. It doesn't have to be. It's easy to keep him from dying. It's very. It's very hard to become spiritually enlightened. But anything in between is like, what the opportunity is.
Ned Schaut (46:38):
A lot of men miss it. And that's really. I think, at my core is the world would look different if more men knew who they were as a father. Because if you look at all the statistics of, like, people in jail and. And people who are struggling with all. You name it, you name it. Any of our global national issues. If fathers were present, fathers were engaged, fathers knew who they were, all that stuff would dramatically decrease. Dramatically.
Joe (47:02):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm hoping this. We have a new generation of kids and fathers that will. We'll get to see the fruits of. So men like you, what you're doing and out there. So. Yeah. So this. This book's awesome. You're writing one about your daughter.
Ned Schaut (47:15):
Yeah. So this is what I would tell people is, you know, a lot of men like what you're doing right now. A lot of men are not invited into fatherhood. So I wrote this book strictly as a. As an opportunity for somebody to give it as a gift. So if somebody's a new dad, if you hand them a book with Joe or my face on the COVID of a book, like, 12 Steps to Be a Great Dad. No, no one is going to read it. No one will read it if you tell them, you know, go. You know, the book was designed specifically to be very simple. Hand it, hey, welcome to fatherhood. I thought you'd enjoy this. And reading it to your kid over the. The years, that's.
(47:54):
That's why I did this, was because I didn't feel like men had just a simple rite of passage. And this is simple, right? But a lot of times we'll be like, oh, dude, you're a dad now. We. We might make some jokes about it, but if. If I walked up to you, Joe, the day you had your kid, and I put my hand on your shoulder as another man, and I was like, joe, you're going to be a great dad, bro. You were made for this.
Joe (48:15):
That.
Ned Schaut (48:15):
That's all you would need. It's all you would need to step up to the plate and go, okay, that's who I am now. But a lot of us new dads don't have anybody doing that. This book was designed to be a token for that moment. Right? That's what it was designed for. So this one, the first one I wrote was a father son. It's great. I love it, very fun. But I've had a father daughter one ready for probably 18 months. I've made a couple of tweaks on it, and I'm going to be putting it out in the next probably six months. Six. Six months. Months or less. And so I was trying to do some different things with it, and I'm just like, you know what? I just need to get it out there. So I think it's better.
Joe (48:54):
Well, this one's great. I read it to my daughter. I just made the gender neutral pronouns.
Ned Schaut (48:58):
I made it work.
Joe (48:59):
De. Gendered it, you know, in real time, and it worked fine. All of it's just as true for my daughter. She's in my sidecar, you know, my motorcycle. And we'll put a little link in the show notes to the book with the. With a discount code, and then we'll definitely promote the new one when. When it comes out. I can't wait to see that. But, you know, I always. I always like to. To wrap up with what you Wish you'd known as before you became a dad. What you know now, what you wish you'd know.
Ned Schaut (49:23):
What I wish I knew when I first became a dad was to surround myself with like minded people. Surround myself with some other dads who really wanted to engage in just going all in with family. And so if I would do something different, it would be A, that and it would be B, be to not put such an emphasis on work and to just lean into the season of life that I was in.
Joe (49:46):
Yeah. People say you sort of lose your non kid friends after you have a kid, but you gain all these new friends because you're desperate and your kid now has friends and their parents. And so it's kind of like your community kind of turns over in a way. You were so young at the time that is that basically what happened that you had to become friends.
Ned Schaut (50:04):
It took a few years before anybody my age had kids. So were kind of like the young people with kids. And maybe that's why I felt that way of like there wasn't anybody to surround myself with that was kind of in the same season as me. But I will say I did do this well and that is I did find mentors who were a season or two ahead of me. And I still do that now. And I think that's critically important is to, you know, if you're married 3rd 20 years, find somebody who's been married 30. If you've got, you know, elementary kids, school kids, go make a friend with a dad who has middle school kids. Like get somebo speaking into your life who's just a little bit ahead of you.
Joe (50:41):
There's lots of cool parent support groups and you know, when I about three months in, I was about at collapse period and realized that I just felt really isolated and had a few friends with kids, but still. So we found this parenting group that had they paired you with parents of kids the same age and you could kind of enter it at any point. And we just went to those and it was called Partners in parenting we have in Austin. But there's a lot of those around and so I always recommend like get out, find other parents, similar age range, you know, or people who do like birth or doula groups. Sometimes they can follow those posts. Post birth. Yeah. Getting that community is key. It's so easy to get isolated. Yeah. Where else can we learn about your stuff?
Ned Schaut (51:22):
Yeah, so I mean podcast is really kind of where I'm living the most fatherhood field notes. So I put out an interview on Tuesdays, and then I put out my own personal thoughts, what I'm going through, what I'm learning with my own kids on Fridays. And I really enjoy doing that. And that's really where most of my material is.
Joe (51:38):
Awesome. We'll put a link to that in there. So. Yeah. Well, thanks so much, Ned. Appreciate you zooming in from Hawaii out there and dropping all.
Ned Schaut (51:46):
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
Joe (51:47):
Absolutely. Thanks, everybody, and stay dedicated.
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