June 23, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode of Dangerous Ideas for Social Change, Kent Dueck sits down with Karen Wiebe, founder of TJ’s Gift Foundation. Karen shares the story behind the tragic loss of her son and how that experience has led her to become an advocate for families that have been impacted by violent crime. Together, Kent and Karen discuss the justice system, community response to violence, and the power of turning personal tragedy into long-term impact.
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Episode Transcript
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Kent (00:03):
What kind of a world do we want to live in?
This podcast opens thedifficult and uncomfortable
conversations about crime,addiction, poverty and more.
If we want a healthiercommunity, these messy
conversations need to happen.
This is Dangerous Ideas forSocial Change.
Alright, I want to say welcometo Dangerous Ideas for Social
(00:25):
Change.
You know, we've been on thistheme of community violence and
we've had a number of differentperspectives, and today we
wanted to zoom in and dial it inand make it a little more
personal, and so we're veryexcited to have Karen Weave with
us, and Karen's going to sharewith us a little bit of her
(00:45):
journey.
And so let's just jump right in.
Karen Sure, tell me about howyou got to the place you are
today You're known as somebody,as an advocate for victims and
tell me a little bit about howdid you end up in that place.
Karen (01:01):
Well, 22 years ago, our son, tj, was murdered, and he
was murdered by people in thedrug world.
So we, we knew that TJ wasexperimenting for a couple of
years, I guess before he, beforehe died.
But then we discovered, about amonth before he died, that he
(01:22):
was also dealing and that he washeavily involved in drugs.
And we had said to him, likewe're, we don't do that.
You know, we're not, I'm notinterested in having you put
everybody in our family at riskby doing this out of our home,
and that it has to stop.
If you want to be, if you wantto live here and be part of this
family, it has to stop and, um,or you have to find another
(01:45):
place to live, because I'm notputting.
He had twin siblings that weretwo years younger, who would be
at risk from people that areheavily involved in drugs, and I
couldn't, couldn't do that.
Kent (01:58):
So, um, can I just ask what?
What was that like to to kindof make that decision, to set
the boundary?
It was horrible.
It was horrible.
Tell me about it.
Karen (02:08):
It was, you know, dealing with his drug issues
before this.
He you know kids that areinvolved in drugs are the best
liars, and TJ wasn't anyexception.
He had excuses for everything.
If I would find anything like abaggie or anything like that,
it was, oh, I don't do thatanymore, or oh, that was for
somebody, or whatever.
(02:29):
And he lied about it over andover again.
And, being his mom, I wanted tobelieve him, you know, I wanted
to believe that he wouldn't dothat.
We had raised our kids so wethought they would not be
interested in that.
Our kids were raised aschristians.
They were involved in in sportsand music and activities.
(02:54):
We had a very full lake life,went to the cottage on the
weekends, and so we had.
The intent was that the kidswould never want to do something
like that because they knew somuch about how much life could
be so much better.
And so when we started to seesigns of it and TJ would make
(03:19):
excuses about it, we believedhim or I believed him.
I don't think his dad ever didit.
We believed him or I believedhim.
I don't think his dad ever did.
And every once in a while hisdad would say something like
well, I think you know TJ isinvolved, tj's using drugs or
whatever and I'd say, well, no,I asked him about it and he said
no, you know.
And, of course, about a monthbefore he died, we found out
that, yes, indeed, he was notonly using but selling and, and
(03:43):
it was horrible, it wasabsolutely horrible.
My husband wanted to kick himout of the house and I knew if
we kicked him out of the house,we lost any influence we had
over him and he didn't want toleave.
You know, he wanted to live athome and be part of the family,
but he also wanted this otherlife.
So it was.
It was was very, very difficult.
(04:04):
Um, he ended up getting chargedby the police for, uh,
something that he didn't do, andthe charges were eventually
dropped.
But, um, through all of that,you know, he was angry, he was
upset.
Uh, he was very, very close tous, he did not want to
disappoint us.
Um, and uh, he thought that hecould fly under the radar and do
(04:28):
this and we would never know,and and whatever, and you know
so you've made that difficultdecision, you.
Kent (04:36):
I can't imagine a parent having to to make that call.
Uh, here it was conflictedbetween your husband and you,
but at some point then TJ's outof the house.
And what's your connectionslike with him once he's kind of
out of the house?
Karen (04:51):
He never left the house.
My husband wanted to kick himout and I said, no, we're not
doing that.
And my husband and I, wethought very much alike and he's
passed away now but we thoughtvery much alike and he gave in
to what I wanted, which was weweren't going to lose influence
(05:12):
over this kid, so we kept him athome.
Kent (05:18):
So take us kind of.
You know the tension in thehome.
But then take us to that momentwhen you you get that, that
phone call.
Was it a phone call?
Did the police officer come by,take us like what that was like
for you and your husband soabout a month before tj died, we
found out um that he wasdealing and using.
Karen (05:39):
We confronted him and we gave him two weeks to clean up
his act.
Um, he, we, I knew that you,you know, would be stupid to
make him flush his drugs downthe toilet, sort of thing.
Uh, he would then be puttingeverybody at risk so um we said
you've got two weeks, get rid ofwhatever.
(05:59):
You've got two weeks.
Get rid of whatever you've got,pay off whatever debts you owe
and at the end of two weeks youhave to agree to see a
psychiatrist or a psychologist.
You have to see a medical doctorto see what damage you've done
to yourself and the whole familyis going to go for counseling.
(06:21):
Because, I mean, clearlythere's something going on here,
there's something wrong thathas're, you know, that has
allowed you to sort of go downthis route and uh.
So we went, uh, to the lake and, uh, my husband had just bought
a new snowmobile.
Tj was really into snowmobiling.
He was very disappointed.
Tj chose to stay in town and,um, but we, we, we, each of us
(06:44):
actually got a phone call theday that tj was murdered, um,
and he, uh, he phoned my husband.
I was still sleeping.
He phoned my husband and saidthat he was really sorry for all
the problems that he'd caused,that he, his friend that he had
been dealing with, had stabbedhim in the back and that he
didn't think he could ever trusther again dealing with had
(07:04):
stabbed him in the back and thathe didn't think he could ever
trust her again, and so on andso forth.
And then, when I woke up and myhusband told me about this
phone call, then I phoned TJmyself and I also had a
wonderful conversation with him.
Both of those I consider realgifts.
And, um, you know, he, he saidto me that he was really sorry,
that he wasn't going to do thislife anymore, um, that he you
(07:26):
know again that he'd beenstabbed in the back by his
friend and he couldn't trust herand he was not going to be
involved with this anymore.
And I said, you know, tjdoesn't matter, today's a new
day, today we start over.
And so we were coming into thecity and thinking that we would.
We came in early, we thoughtwe'd all have supper together
(07:47):
and and so on, and then hedidn't come home for supper.
So he didn't come home thatnight.
And that's not like tj, he wasalways around, um, and so, uh,
the next day his brother, whowas 18, phoned the hospitals,
(08:07):
phoned around to see if TJ hadbeen brought in anywhere.
And then by Thursday we werevery worried and my husband went
down to the police station andfound out how to get into the
vice department of the day whichis like almost impossible
because they're all closeted inthere and told them that TJ was
(08:30):
missing.
And they already knew TJ wasmissing, but they said that the
word on the street was that hehad gone to do a buy somewhere
and that he was okay, there'snothing.
Nothing bad had happened to him, so we stayed in touch with the
police through the next threeweeks.
They were very, very good.
(08:52):
The vice department was verygood.
They came over and checked onStacey and Chad and on us to see
how we were doing.
Kent (08:58):
What was that three weeks like?
How were you doing?
Karen (09:01):
It was a nightmare because we were trying to find
him.
We were driving out makingmeetings with friends, of
friends of friends, meetingpeople we had never known before
that knew TJ.
Everybody was extremely carefulwhen they talked to us but they
(09:21):
didn't give us any indicationthat anything bad had happened
to him.
I think we kind of.
I think floyd knew first of all, and I think I suspected,
because we would go out in thecar and we would, you know, look
, I'd get out of the car if Isaw green garbage bags and kick
them to see if there was a bodyin there.
I mean, it was unbelievablyhorrible, and um.
(09:44):
And then on the um, I guessafter three weeks, they finally
decided they would go withmissing persons.
So they put an announcement outuh, missing persons, on Friday,
and up until that time I hadbeen working and Floyd had been
working and, and we told ourbosses what was going on, but we
were still working.
(10:05):
And then, when it went public,I took that next week off
because it was just too hard.
Kent (10:11):
As in when you got the news.
Karen (10:15):
No, it only went to missing persons.
But when it went to missingpersons on that Friday night,
that's when the case actuallybroke with the police.
And actually it's a fascinatingcase.
If you've never read about it,we have it up on our website,
tjsgiftcom.
And the police had answered acall from a young woman who
(10:40):
lived on Furby Street that therewas somebody in her apartment.
She needed him to get outbecause he's making too much
noise and she was afraid shewould get evicted if he didn't
leave.
And he wouldn't leave.
So the two street cops wentdown and picked him up and he
lied about his name and then,when they found out his real
name, they realized he hadoutstanding warrants in Regina.
(11:01):
So they took him back to thepolice station and then he said
to them if you let me go fromthat ward, I'll give you the
biggest case of your lives,because I know somebody that was
murdered and he's beingreported missing.
But I know he's murdered and Iknow who did it.
So they immediately called inhomicide and over the weekend
the homicide cops called invarious people that he was
(11:25):
giving names and so on and soforth to and found out what had
happened.
They didn't tell us because ofcourse the cops don't tell you
what the case is.
But nonetheless they wereworking on it and over the
weekend it went to homicide.
So we didn't really know whatthat meant.
(11:45):
So I'm just trying to timelineAt this point.
Kent (11:49):
Do you know that TJ has deceased?
No, you don't know this yet.
Karen (11:53):
No, Having gone to homicide, I guess the reasonable
expectation is that, yeah, he'sdied, but what did we know?
We've never dealt with the copsLike we didn't know anything
about it.
Kent (12:07):
And you wanted to remain hopeful, I imagine.
Karen (12:09):
Absolutely.
And cops told us to.
They said they'd had casesbefore where somebody being
reported as having died and theyshowed up.
So you know, don't give up hope.
We're looking.
And our assumption was thatthey were still looking for him,
which they were.
But um over the next, that nexttwo, they were pursuing two
(12:32):
people that had taken TJ out ina car and it turned out that
they'd gone to Calgary.
So the cops got a phone numberfrom one of the witnesses for
one of the killers and theyphoned it and it was one of
those pay-as-you-go phones andit didn't have any more money on
it so it wasn't going through.
So they put money on it, so itwasn't going through.
So they put money on it and itwent through and one of the
(12:54):
killers, chad Hanser, picked itup in Calgary and that's how
they knew where they were.
So they flew seven policeofficers from Winnipeg to
Calgary and Calgary police didthe arrest and then they
interviewed them there and theygot their confessions there and
then they flew them back towinnipeg.
We still had not been told thattj was dead.
(13:14):
Um, we knew that they had goneto calgary to arrest two people
but we didn't know specificallywhat had happened and the cops
did not want to tell us untilthey had tj's body back.
Kent (13:27):
So they brought them concerned it was going to
interfere with the investigation, or what was their thinking?
Karen (13:32):
uh, I think they felt never, say never, like there's
still a chance that this is not,uh, you know, going to carry
through and that maybe it isn'ttrue, right, um and uh.
So they brought the killersback and there was a raging
blizzard going on and they hadone of them in two, like they
(13:53):
were in two separate cars andthey said take us where you left
the body, and they went out totheir general area but they
couldn't find it because of theblizzard and I think also, I'm
not even sure they reallyremembered where they were, I'm
not sure that they actuallypicked a spot sort of
happenstance is what I think.
Kent (14:12):
A little more chaotic, a little less planned yeah.
Karen (14:15):
And oh no, I think the murder itself was planned, but
where they were going to do itwas not necessarily planned.
The police sergeant came andcame to see us and he had said
that he was coming, I think,around 3.30.
So I'd left work early, floydleft work early, we had the kids
at home, we were waiting and bythis time I had a very strong
(14:37):
feeling that TJ was gone and Ineeded to do something to keep
Stacy and Chad busy.
So I had Stacy start pullingpictures to make posters for a
funeral, pictures of TJ.
And then he came.
The police sergeant came andtold us, basically you know what
had happened to a certaindegree.
(14:58):
They don't tell you everything,right, you don't find out
everything till you go to court.
But he told us that that TJ wasdead and that they had arrested
people for his murder.
They didn't say how many people, because they made these two
arrests and then later on theymade another arrest and later on
they made another arrest.
So we didn't know.
We were surprised when theymade these other arrests.
(15:18):
We didn't know these people.
We knew the name of one, Ithink I talked on the phone to
the guy that was the ringleaderwanted tj to die.
It's the only one that tj knewand um, and then the next day
they went out and they did thepolice line and they walked
through the snow till theykicked him and found him and
you've got this dragged outjourney and now, finally, you,
(15:42):
you have the news and it'sconfirmed.
Kent (15:44):
Yeah, help, uh, help people understand, because I
think often you know people hearabout violence and they read it
in the news maybe, and theydon't get the the finer details
of what families go through whenthey face this news.
What, what kind of transpiredin your home.
What was that news like?
Karen (16:01):
um, it was.
It was really horrifying, um,our kids each had their own
support networks of theirfriends, um, and and we had
tremendous support like we umhad.
Uh, our friends just came outand church people and our
(16:22):
families and so on and so forthand we had tremendous support.
But I mean, you're trying todigest.
You know what does that mean?
Why did why did this happen?
And the police said it wasjealousy and greed you know,
jealousy.
Actually, tj was killed becauseof a girl and um, and then the
killers were going to getwhatever money he had on him and
(16:45):
he was known to carry a fairamount of money, um, the two
that took him in the car andthen the two others that were
charged were not in the car withthem but they, uh, were to get
whatever drugs tj had.
So it was um, it was so much totake in that first of all, your
(17:06):
kid is dead, um, and then,second of all, how they died,
because now it's verycomplicated, right like it's now
, it's going to be the rest ofour lives.
It's the rest of your liveswhen you're a parent, anyways,
when your kid dies.
Kent (17:19):
So I I don't say that this is, say more about that the
rest of your lives.
What do you?
What do you?
Karen (17:25):
well, yeah, I mean you when you have a child in your
family.
They're precious.
Kent (17:29):
Yeah.
Karen (17:30):
And when they're gone there's a hole, and then that
hole is never filled.
Kent (17:37):
It's a lifelong.
It's a lifelong journey.
Karen (17:40):
But when they're murdered, then you end up with a
relationship with the personthat killed them, right, because
you end up seeing the courtprocess through.
And then there is the paroleprocess, and so I'm still going
to parole hearings, my myselfand my kids.
We go to parole hearings everytime there's one that's called
(18:01):
and, uh, I give a statement, mydaughter gives a statement, um,
and that's like reliving thewhole thing.
Kent (18:08):
It's what's that like, what's that experience it's not
really reliving the whole thing.
Karen (18:13):
Unless I choose to tell my story that way, the statement
that you give at a parolehearing is what impact has this
murder had on you?
And you're giving it to theparole board, not to the
offender.
Supposedly right, but I mean,there's ways of writing things.
You say what you need to sayand you know that the offender
is going to is.
(18:34):
He's there, he's going to hearit and plus, he gets a copy of
it before the hearing so he cansee what.
It is right, um, but it is.
It depends on the route thatyou want to take.
I've I've done um variousthings.
One of one of the things that Iwanted to know was stuff I
didn't find out from the, fromthe trial, because the police
(18:57):
don't fully investigate a crimelike that.
They investigate enough so theycan get a conviction.
You know they get all theimportant points.
But there's all the questionsyou have like, for example, why
did they choose where they choseto leave tj's body?
That was a burning question formy husband and he was prepared
to meet with them to ask themthat question.
(19:18):
I said to him, like they'renever, they don't even know.
I'm sure they don't know.
And if they did, how do youknow what they're telling you is
going to be the truth, rightand uh.
And then he died before hecould meet with him.
He had a heart attack and hedied.
But, um, you know, you, you havequestions about, about timing,
(19:39):
about things that are reallyimportant to a parent that the
cops don't care about because itdoesn't impact their case and
um, so using those statements atparole hearings, you can find
that information out.
One of the things that they didwas they lied on the stand
(19:59):
about one of the offenders andthat offender was acquitted and
I knew like he had beenimplicated.
He's the only one that knew TJand I knew that he had been
involved.
I wanted them to admit thatthey'd lied, and so when I did
my statement for a parolehearing, I said like why should
(20:23):
you be released when you liedabout somebody that was involved
in this case and that person iswalking free?
Why, who can trust you?
And the next time there was aparole hearing, they admitted.
The two that were still in jailadmitted that they had lied.
Kent (20:40):
Were there any implications for the individual
that was implicated there?
Karen (20:43):
No, because he'd already been tried and acquitted, so
there was nothing anybody woulddo about it, but for you was it
a sort of a relief, or uh well,I wanted to hear them say it,
but I knew it.
I knew he'd been involved.
I mean, everything led to him.
It was just stupid that he'dever been acquitted, um, but
nonetheless, I knew I wantedthat.
(21:05):
I wanted proof to a lot ofpeople that, yes, this other
person had been involved andother people were making would
make excuses and say, well,maybe he hadn't.
Well, no, he had.
You know, and just because theylied on the stand doesn't mean
that he wasn't involved.
They lied, for whatever reasonsthat they got out of it.
Kent (21:25):
So it was important to me that they had to admit that so
then, tell us a little bit aboutthe sentencing what actually
happened, how, how long theperpetrators went away so there
were four people that werecharged.
Karen (21:38):
The first person that was charged, uh, sat behind tj
in the car and did pretty mucheverything to him.
They did a number of things tohim to kill him, and when they
left he wasn't dead.
It was January 5th, so he died.
He had the first trial.
His name was Anthony Pulsifer.
He was found guilty by a juryof second-degree murder and
(22:03):
conspiracy to commitfirst-degree murder, which
doesn't seem to me to work.
It should have beenfirst-degree or not, but our
court system is such that theyare allowed to find whatever
they chose.
And he received a sentence of15 years to life, which means
that he had to be in jail for 15years, and after 15 years he
(22:26):
would be on parole for the restof his life.
Interestingly enough, he isstill 22 years later in jail,
and so this is.
Kent (22:38):
There were other offenses that took place when he was in
jail?
No, or that just.
Karen (22:41):
No, this is about TJ.
He has not earned the abilityto be out and the parole board
has seen that and I'm doingeverything I can to provide the
impact that he's had on us tokeep him there, to provide the
impact that he's had on us tokeep him there.
(23:01):
I'm not going to say that Ihave any power over that, but I
write powerful statements and Iwant them to understand the
impact that he's had.
Obviously, he's not doing whathe needs to do or he'd be out
anyways.
And you know, I'm a christianperson and I believe in the
power of prayer and I believethat he's.
He's there because we'reworking to keep him there.
(23:22):
Um, there's a small part of methat wonders.
You know, he received seconddegree murder for all the things
that he deliberately did, andit was, it was a planned murder.
So, um, I I wonder sometimes ifthe parole board doesn't see
(23:44):
that he should have had firstdegree and it's keeping him for
the 25 years they're kind ofseeing it as premeditated well,
it's definitely premeditated.
premeditated is there's noquestion about it.
And um, and what I reallyappreciate about the parole
board is that when I write astatement they hold him to
account for what I've said in mystatement.
Um, I've had witnesses contactme, afraid that if he gets out
(24:09):
and some of the other peoplehave gotten out, um, that
they're going to be at risk andand I've said that to the parole
board, like, I've beencontacted by people that are
worried, you know, and then theywill tell him, you know, they
will question him about that.
The parole board is in WesternCanada anyways, I have not seen
(24:32):
them in our situation.
I have never seen them be whatpeople think the parole board is
kind of a revolving door.
I've never seen them in oursituation.
I've never seen them be whatpeople think the parole board is
kind of a revolving door.
I've never seen that.
Kent (24:40):
You're satisfied with the justice system, absolutely how
it worked for you.
Karen (24:45):
No, I'm satisfied with the parole board Okay.
Kent (24:49):
Yeah, I guess the justice system missed that charge.
Karen (24:52):
The justice system is everything from the cops till
they're not in parole anymore,and that's never going to happen
for him for the rest of hislife.
I've spent the other part of mylife the bulk of my life since
TJ's died trying to get justicefor people through the courts,
(25:13):
through the laws being changedand stuff like that.
Kent (25:15):
Let me just say that's an unbelievable story and, um, so
many people who would have gonethrough something like you and
your husband went through andyour family went through would
just want to survive and get by.
But you've done more, you're,you're.
I want to hear a little bitabout how, how, uh, that tragic
loss of tj, how you sort ofredeemed parts of that by
(25:40):
reaching, by helping.
Like what are, what are youdoing to help victims?
Help me understand.
Karen (25:43):
Well, we knew we, we needed a response.
My husband and I are all.
We have always beencommunity-minded.
We did our young people'sgroups at church.
I've been a church choir leader.
We, uh floyd did cubs andscouts.
Um, you know, we've we'vealways been involved in the
(26:04):
community in some way or other.
He was baseball convener forbonnie vettel and and stuff like
that and, and so it wasinconceivable to us that
something of this magnitudecould happen and we could go on,
just go on with our everydaylives.
Well, first of all, thatdoesn't happen.
Your life is never the same.
We did 180 degree turn in ourlives and my husband was a
(26:30):
successful businessman, I was ateacher and you know that's all
I ever wanted to do was be ateacher.
But it became clear that, youknow, we needed to do something.
We needed to have a response towhat happened to TJ, and so, in
having the response, what wefelt we really needed to do was
support other families as theywere going through this, and
(26:53):
that summer the year that TJdied, I think, there was one
every week or every second weekof kids that were dying, that
somehow were drug related orsome kind of violence.
So we created a fund with theLouis Riel school division where
(27:13):
the money from the funeralwould go into this fund so that
kids could help kids not dodrugs.
Because I mean, obviously kidsaren't listening to parents,
right and um.
So we thought, okay, the way toreach kids is through their
friends.
Empower their friends and thefriends will be safe, and then
(27:34):
they will empower their friends.
So that's how we decided wewould do it, and so we raised,
not raised.
We were given money at TJ'sfuneral.
What do you do with this money?
You know, give it to the HumaneSociety is a good idea, but we
needed it to be more focused toour situation.
So we created this fund inLouisville and gave the money to
(27:54):
them and it had to be used.
It was supposed to be used forprograms where kids helped kids
not do drugs.
And then we went through courtand that took about four years
because there are four offenders.
And I mean it's just on and onand on and on.
Kent (28:11):
So you're at the funeral of your son.
You're already having thewellbeing of others in mind.
Karen (28:15):
Oh, before the funeral, I son, you're already having the
well-being of others in mind oh, before the funeral I'm I find
that, I find that staggeringbecause, because the the pain,
the agony that we were goingthrough is not something you
wish on anything anybody.
I don't wish it on tj'skiller's parents.
What we live with I it'shorrendous, it's, it's
(28:38):
unbelievable pain to lose achild that way.
Um, the loss of a child isalways terrible.
The loss of a loved one isterrible.
The loss of a child is is theworst pain that a parent will go
through, and the only thingthat's worse than that is losing
another one.
You know, and so, like we knew,we'd read the pick up the paper
(28:58):
and read that you know this,and the next thing had happened,
and the next thing had happened, and the next thing had
happened.
Kent (29:04):
And it was like we have to reach out to those people
because you would pick up thephone and or how would you get
in touch with, with folks?
Karen (29:12):
uh, well it was a lot easier when we had a phone book
cell phones have really made itvery difficult, yeah um, but we
could, you know, in somesituations.
I remember one case, and thismom now is very involved with
compassionate friends but thiskid went to the same school as
tj, had the same name, was thesame age and died a year later.
(29:34):
I think it was a year later ormaybe six months later, I can't
remember, but anyways around thetime, and they might have known
each other when they went toschool, because it's the same
school, um, and you know you're,you're instantly connected to
that person, um.
And we found that with otherpeople, like, nobody will
(29:56):
understand what we're livingwith unless they live with it.
And all the supportorganizations, they all do their
bit.
The families, the friends.
They're all trying so hard tomake it better and to fix it.
And it's unfixable and theycan't make it better.
You just have to survive it andpeople don't understand that,
(30:17):
but when you're living with it,you understand it.
So it for people like us toreach out to other people that
are going through this.
Kent (30:25):
We may be their life ring I'm curious, um, when you went
through it in those early weeks,did anyone reach out to you
with that kind of help, or wereyou alone?
Karen (30:35):
uh, there was nobody that we knew that had a homicide
.
Nobody reached out to you withthat kind of help.
Or were you alone?
Uh, there was nobody that weknew that had a homicide.
Nobody reached out to us thathad a homicide.
Initially, um, everybodyreached out like so much, so
many people were so good to us,our, even our employers.
I worked for permanent trails.
They paid for me to attendcourt.
Uh, never took it off my sicktime and they put a letter in my
(30:57):
file saying anytime I needed togo to court I was released.
My husband had the samesituation with his work.
So I mean we were very blessedthat way.
Kent (31:06):
But actual people with lived experience.
You kind of had to go it alone.
Karen (31:10):
Until we went to court.
When we went to court, we met awonderful woman whose name is
Darlene Rempel at the timethere's now Darlene Rempel
Fillion and she had begun MOVAin 2000.
Tj was died in 2003.
She had started MOVA in 2000.
At that time it was for victimsof violent crime so it could
(31:31):
have been sexual abuse or a lotof things.
but she came, came to court withus and she explained what a
voyeur was.
She explained who the court, thepeople that come to court just
to watch what's going on,interested people that are, you
know, wanting to see what's.
She told us about those people,because we were wondering who's
(31:52):
in this room, like who elseknows TJ, but they weren't there
.
Because you know tj, they wereinterested in the case, right,
um, she was there with us somuch she was amazing and she
started mova and so you know,eventually both of floyd's
sisters actually became involvedwith mova, um, and then
(32:14):
eventually I became involved,involved and Floyd was always
involved with it.
Floyd was the person that was,you know, he was vice president
of Compassionate Friends Canadaand he was involved with MOVA
and he was he was the firstchairperson for the Victims
Advisory Council for to theParole Board and Correctional
Service of Canada for thePrairie Region, and so we were
(32:38):
always, he was always right outin front advocating for victims
and I was teaching.
So I mean, I only had so muchtime and running TJ's Gift.
So, I didn't do as much of thatas he did.
Kent (32:53):
But then, after I retired from teaching, then I had more
time to do it uh, this story hasbeen one of just like,
incredible loss, incredible pain, but the the fact that you were
able to transform this intosomething that that has an
impact in the community is just.
It speaks to the depth of yourcharacter and who you are, who
you and Floyd were, and uh, so,so what, exactly?
(33:14):
What are the?
What are the kinds of servicesor outreach that you offer
families that are going through?
What does that look like?
Karen (33:21):
Well, first of all we have to find them.
That's become more difficultbecause we don't have a phone
book.
So you know, you see the namein the paper.
It might not be the name of thesame name as parents, right?
So that's the first obstacle wehave to overcome.
Um and um, if we can trackthose people down, sometimes
(33:43):
it's a matter of saying to thepolice please give these people
our, my, our phone number.
Kent (33:50):
Um, and they've done that they're generally cooperative on
that well because particularlymore with my husband.
Karen (33:57):
I think he had a very good relationship with the cops
and homicide in particulardepartments so he would give
information, his phone number orwhatever to them In a
particular case he'd talk aboutit with them, give them his
phone number, ask him to havethe people call him if they
wanted to.
They always did yeah.
(34:18):
And then it would form arelationship, and then we form a
family, more of a familyrelationship.
Um, now it's it's verydifficult to do that.
Uh, we, we have to rely more onpeople reaching out to mova or
to tj's gift, um Gift, and so wehave our information out there.
(34:40):
The police, victim Services ofthe Province, the hospitals,
funeral homes, they all havebrochures and letters from us
that we hope they'll give.
Victims of homicide, familiesso they will contact us.
Families that they so they willcontact us and uh, it, it, we
(35:03):
don't get contacted by familiesfor homicide in by any means.
All of them like we.
We only get people that are youknow.
They get to a point wherethey're desperate and they need
help, right, and uh, they'relooking and they're looking for
help because they get a bigstack of brochures and that from
the cops, from victim servicesand so on.
(35:23):
They don't necessarily have themind to go through them, but
they get to a point where theyneed to know that there are
people around that are like them.
Kent (35:31):
Right.
So a number of times you'vealluded to TJ's Gift and I'd
like to hear a little bit moreabout what that is, what that
provides and how it's making adifference in our community.
Karen (35:51):
Well, tj's Gift started off from the fund that we gave
Louis Riel actually Took us fouryears to get through court and
that was very intense, so weended up having to wait until
that was done.
And then we created a um, aboard of sorts, sort of steering
committee of our friends andfamily.
Um, when tj died, we knew wewere going to have a huge
(36:17):
funeral and we were preparingfor a thousand people.
Quite simply, we went to getfood for a thousand people and
realized it was ten dollars aperson.
It would have been ten thousanddollars for just food for his
funeral and when you have amurder in your family you're not
(36:38):
prepared for that, you know wedidn't have money set aside for
our kids funerals, so ourfriends all got together and
made sandwiches and desserts andserved them at the funeral that
and then we went over andvisited with them after the
funeral.
You know how people will gettogether after a big event yeah
(36:59):
and uh, they said we're really,you know, sorry that we couldn't
do some kind of a function thatwould raise some money, uh, to
put into louis riel.
So we decided that we wouldhave a big dinner and dance and
650 people came AmazingGovernment, teachers, families,
(37:23):
all kinds of people.
We raised $54,000 in one nightand we gave it all to Louis Riel
.
And then we thought, gee, soLouis Riel's looked after, what
about all the other kids in theprovince?
So, with a steering committee,we started planning and then we
(37:45):
went from that to a board, anadvisory board, and we became
incorporated and went the routeof, you know, becoming more
formal and uh, and then started,um, having fundraising galas
every year, raising the money,and then we put it into, uh,
tj's gift foundation we created.
(38:06):
And then what we do with thatis, um, I will go out to schools
and talk to kids about whathappened to tj and talk about
choices.
We had a video, professionallymade, called choices and we
encourage kids to do projects.
We encourage schools.
The problem, of course, is thatit's not just the kids, right,
(38:28):
the.
They have to have a teacherthat's going to be supporting
them through it and if we, ifthey can find a teacher that
will help them do a projectwhere they help other kids not
do drugs, um, then we pay forall their expenses for it.
Amazing.
And then, on top of that, ofcourse I don't know if you know
anything about music teachers,of which I am um, but we get
(38:52):
bored with things and we need todo something different.
But you never stop doing whatyou initially did right, so it
just adds in, adds in.
So then I decided, okay, well,kids listen to music.
How can we reach them with tjstory through music?
So we decided to hold a concertat the mts center.
We rented the mts center.
(39:13):
I contacted kevin donnelly hewas wonderful, how do you do
this?
I have no clue right.
And he said, well, this is whatyou do.
And so he said, okay, well,give us a date and we're going
to rent you guys and inviteevery kid, every school, from
grade 7 on to grade 12, for afree concert.
(39:34):
We are going to get localmusicians and we're going to put
on a concert to help kids besafe.
We actually were involvedinitially with Bubba B.
Bubba B, the MC, and he hadcontacted the mayor, who at that
(39:55):
time was Mayor Cates and wasmaking arrangements for us to
use a concert hall.
That all fell through.
So then we decided okay, well,we're going to go with the MTS
Center and we'll pay for it.
We had enough money in the bankthat we could pay for it.
So we ran to the MTS Center.
We sent invitations to everyhigh school within a reasonable
(40:18):
distance of Winnipeg and inWinnipeg and every junior high.
At that point it was justtransitioning to middle schools.
But anybody that had grade 7and up come to this concert.
It's free and it's just to helpkids not do drugs.
And the most I think we everhad was around 3 500 kids.
Amazing um.
And the first year we hadsierra noble, we had baba b, we
(40:42):
had a group, uh called um.
Uh, what was their name?
I can't remember.
They're great kids.
They were kids that we used alot and they came from dakota
collegiate.
They they've separated andchanged their names many times
since then, but um, maximum 60wonderful and uh, and we put on
(41:05):
this concert at the mts centerand um, each of the groups,
their responsibility was toperform, but they also had the
responsibility to talk to theirkids about not doing drugs,
about their experiences withmaybe having done drugs and made
choices to not do that anymore,about their experiences with
(41:28):
having friends or family thathad been involved in drugs and
what that had been like,experiences with having friends
or family that had been involvedin drugs and what that had been
like.
Um, but every band had to have,um, you know, a, a testimony
for lack of a better word aboutwhy they didn't do drugs.
Um and uh, it was huge, youknow, it was amazing.
And we also then, one year, wetook maximum 60 out to schools.
(41:55):
We did 20 schools in 20 days, Ithink it was, and they went
into schools and did a concert.
I talked about tj, they talkedabout why they didn't do drugs
and it was just total outreach.
We give the kids a card.
It's a business-shaped card.
It's got got a picture of TJ onthe front of it and it's a
pledge card.
(42:15):
And the pledge card is for themonly.
It's not for anybody else butthem, and I tell them that,
first of all, you don't have totake one of these Like this.
There's no card police here tosee who's taking cards and who
isn't.
This is offered to you.
If you want it, take it.
If you don't want it, pleasedon't take it and throw it in
(42:37):
the garbage.
I don't want to see TJ's facein the garbage and we offer it
to kids and then I give them myphone number, and Flood used to
do the same thing.
This is our cell number.
When you've signed your cardcard, take a picture of it and
text it to us.
We'll answer your text, butthen you also have a conduit if
(43:00):
you need to talk and, um, youknow, I've, I've given my phone
number out.
I want to say to I don't know,maybe 20 000 kids and I've
probably had six or seven prankcalls out of that it's gonna
happen, I guess it happens, butI mean like 20 000 kids yeah,
(43:23):
amazing and it's my personalcell phone, so I mean they could
.
Kent (43:27):
Yeah, they don't well, karen, we're, uh, you have an
amazing story and and the depthof respect I have for you, for
how you've taken something darkand terrible and, uh, and I
imagine you still walk with thatdarkness and it's still a
challenge yes but, uh, the wayyou've given back.
I want to say, on behalf of ourcommunity and the wider winnipeg
(43:51):
and all those families who havebeen through this, a big thank
you for all of the heart thatyou've given themselves upon us.
But it's encouraging to hearthat there's things we can do to
(44:16):
make a difference and, karen,for you and your husband and
your family, you've done justthat and I want to say thank you
.
Karen (44:23):
Oh well, you know it's good work.
It needs to be done, and I'mglad that I'm able to do it.
Kent (44:30):
Thank you.
Thanks for tuning in toDangerous Ideas for Social
Change.
What kind of a world do we want to live in?
This podcast opens thedifficult and uncomfortable
conversations about crime,addiction, poverty and more.
If we want a healthiercommunity, these messy
conversations need to happen.
This is Dangerous Ideas forSocial Change.
Alright, I want to say welcometo Dangerous Ideas for Social
(00:25):
Change.
You know, we've been on thistheme of community violence and
we've had a number of differentperspectives, and today we
wanted to zoom in and dial it inand make it a little more
personal, and so we're veryexcited to have Karen Weave with
us, and Karen's going to sharewith us a little bit of her
(00:45):
journey.
And so let's just jump right in.
Karen Sure, tell me about howyou got to the place you are
today You're known as somebody,as an advocate for victims and
tell me a little bit about howdid you end up in that place.
Karen (01:01):
Well, 22 years ago, our son, tj, was murdered, and he
was murdered by people in thedrug world.
So we, we knew that TJ wasexperimenting for a couple of
years, I guess before he, beforehe died.
But then we discovered, about amonth before he died, that he
(01:22):
was also dealing and that he washeavily involved in drugs.
And we had said to him, likewe're, we don't do that.
You know, we're not, I'm notinterested in having you put
everybody in our family at riskby doing this out of our home,
and that it has to stop.
If you want to be, if you wantto live here and be part of this
family, it has to stop and, um,or you have to find another
(01:45):
place to live, because I'm notputting.
He had twin siblings that weretwo years younger, who would be
at risk from people that areheavily involved in drugs, and I
couldn't, couldn't do that.
Kent (01:58):
So, um, can I just ask what?
What was that like to to kindof make that decision, to set
the boundary?
It was horrible.
It was horrible.
Tell me about it.
Karen (02:08):
It was, you know, dealing with his drug issues
before this.
He you know kids that areinvolved in drugs are the best
liars, and TJ wasn't anyexception.
He had excuses for everything.
If I would find anything like abaggie or anything like that,
it was, oh, I don't do thatanymore, or oh, that was for
somebody, or whatever.
(02:29):
And he lied about it over andover again.
And, being his mom, I wanted tobelieve him, you know, I wanted
to believe that he wouldn't dothat.
We had raised our kids so wethought they would not be
interested in that.
Our kids were raised aschristians.
They were involved in in sportsand music and activities.
(02:54):
We had a very full lake life,went to the cottage on the
weekends, and so we had.
The intent was that the kidswould never want to do something
like that because they knew somuch about how much life could
be so much better.
And so when we started to seesigns of it and TJ would make
(03:19):
excuses about it, we believedhim or I believed him.
I don't think his dad ever didit.
We believed him or I believedhim.
I don't think his dad ever did.
And every once in a while hisdad would say something like
well, I think you know TJ isinvolved, tj's using drugs or
whatever and I'd say, well, no,I asked him about it and he said
no, you know.
And, of course, about a monthbefore he died, we found out
that, yes, indeed, he was notonly using but selling and, and
(03:43):
it was horrible, it wasabsolutely horrible.
My husband wanted to kick himout of the house and I knew if
we kicked him out of the house,we lost any influence we had
over him and he didn't want toleave.
You know, he wanted to live athome and be part of the family,
but he also wanted this otherlife.
So it was.
It was was very, very difficult.
(04:04):
Um, he ended up getting chargedby the police for, uh,
something that he didn't do, andthe charges were eventually
dropped.
But, um, through all of that,you know, he was angry, he was
upset.
Uh, he was very, very close tous, he did not want to
disappoint us.
Um, and uh, he thought that hecould fly under the radar and do
(04:28):
this and we would never know,and and whatever, and you know
so you've made that difficultdecision, you.
Kent (04:36):
I can't imagine a parent having to to make that call.
Uh, here it was conflictedbetween your husband and you,
but at some point then TJ's outof the house.
And what's your connectionslike with him once he's kind of
out of the house?
Karen (04:51):
He never left the house.
My husband wanted to kick himout and I said, no, we're not
doing that.
And my husband and I, wethought very much alike and he's
passed away now but we thoughtvery much alike and he gave in
to what I wanted, which was weweren't going to lose influence
(05:12):
over this kid, so we kept him athome.
Kent (05:18):
So take us kind of.
You know the tension in thehome.
But then take us to that momentwhen you you get that, that
phone call.
Was it a phone call?
Did the police officer come by,take us like what that was like
for you and your husband soabout a month before tj died, we
found out um that he wasdealing and using.
Karen (05:39):
We confronted him and we gave him two weeks to clean up
his act.
Um, he, we, I knew that you,you know, would be stupid to
make him flush his drugs downthe toilet, sort of thing.
Uh, he would then be puttingeverybody at risk so um we said
you've got two weeks, get rid ofwhatever.
(05:59):
You've got two weeks.
Get rid of whatever you've got,pay off whatever debts you owe
and at the end of two weeks youhave to agree to see a
psychiatrist or a psychologist.
You have to see a medical doctorto see what damage you've done
to yourself and the whole familyis going to go for counseling.
(06:21):
Because, I mean, clearlythere's something going on here,
there's something wrong thathas're, you know, that has
allowed you to sort of go downthis route and uh.
So we went, uh, to the lake and, uh, my husband had just bought
a new snowmobile.
Tj was really into snowmobiling.
He was very disappointed.
Tj chose to stay in town and,um, but we, we, we, each of us
(06:44):
actually got a phone call theday that tj was murdered, um,
and he, uh, he phoned my husband.
I was still sleeping.
He phoned my husband and saidthat he was really sorry for all
the problems that he'd caused,that he, his friend that he had
been dealing with, had stabbedhim in the back and that he
didn't think he could ever trusther again dealing with had
(07:04):
stabbed him in the back and thathe didn't think he could ever
trust her again, and so on andso forth.
And then, when I woke up and myhusband told me about this
phone call, then I phoned TJmyself and I also had a
wonderful conversation with him.
Both of those I consider realgifts.
And, um, you know, he, he saidto me that he was really sorry,
that he wasn't going to do thislife anymore, um, that he you
(07:26):
know again that he'd beenstabbed in the back by his
friend and he couldn't trust herand he was not going to be
involved with this anymore.
And I said, you know, tjdoesn't matter, today's a new
day, today we start over.
And so we were coming into thecity and thinking that we would.
We came in early, we thoughtwe'd all have supper together
(07:47):
and and so on, and then hedidn't come home for supper.
So he didn't come home thatnight.
And that's not like tj, he wasalways around, um, and so, uh,
the next day his brother, whowas 18, phoned the hospitals,
(08:07):
phoned around to see if TJ hadbeen brought in anywhere.
And then by Thursday we werevery worried and my husband went
down to the police station andfound out how to get into the
vice department of the day whichis like almost impossible
because they're all closeted inthere and told them that TJ was
(08:30):
missing.
And they already knew TJ wasmissing, but they said that the
word on the street was that hehad gone to do a buy somewhere
and that he was okay, there'snothing.
Nothing bad had happened to him, so we stayed in touch with the
police through the next threeweeks.
They were very, very good.
(08:52):
The vice department was verygood.
They came over and checked onStacey and Chad and on us to see
how we were doing.
Kent (08:58):
What was that three weeks like?
How were you doing?
Karen (09:01):
It was a nightmare because we were trying to find
him.
We were driving out makingmeetings with friends, of
friends of friends, meetingpeople we had never known before
that knew TJ.
Everybody was extremely carefulwhen they talked to us but they
(09:21):
didn't give us any indicationthat anything bad had happened
to him.
I think we kind of.
I think floyd knew first of all, and I think I suspected,
because we would go out in thecar and we would, you know, look
, I'd get out of the car if Isaw green garbage bags and kick
them to see if there was a bodyin there.
I mean, it was unbelievablyhorrible, and um.
(09:44):
And then on the um, I guessafter three weeks, they finally
decided they would go withmissing persons.
So they put an announcement outuh, missing persons, on Friday,
and up until that time I hadbeen working and Floyd had been
working and, and we told ourbosses what was going on, but we
were still working.
(10:05):
And then, when it went public,I took that next week off
because it was just too hard.
Kent (10:11):
As in when you got the news.
Karen (10:15):
No, it only went to missing persons.
But when it went to missingpersons on that Friday night,
that's when the case actuallybroke with the police.
And actually it's a fascinatingcase.
If you've never read about it,we have it up on our website,
tjsgiftcom.
And the police had answered acall from a young woman who
(10:40):
lived on Furby Street that therewas somebody in her apartment.
She needed him to get outbecause he's making too much
noise and she was afraid shewould get evicted if he didn't
leave.
And he wouldn't leave.
So the two street cops wentdown and picked him up and he
lied about his name and then,when they found out his real
name, they realized he hadoutstanding warrants in Regina.
(11:01):
So they took him back to thepolice station and then he said
to them if you let me go fromthat ward, I'll give you the
biggest case of your lives,because I know somebody that was
murdered and he's beingreported missing.
But I know he's murdered and Iknow who did it.
So they immediately called inhomicide and over the weekend
the homicide cops called invarious people that he was
(11:25):
giving names and so on and soforth to and found out what had
happened.
They didn't tell us because ofcourse the cops don't tell you
what the case is.
But nonetheless they wereworking on it and over the
weekend it went to homicide.
So we didn't really know whatthat meant.
(11:45):
So I'm just trying to timelineAt this point.
Kent (11:49):
Do you know that TJ has deceased?
No, you don't know this yet.
Karen (11:53):
No, Having gone to homicide, I guess the reasonable
expectation is that, yeah, he'sdied, but what did we know?
We've never dealt with the copsLike we didn't know anything
about it.
Kent (12:07):
And you wanted to remain hopeful, I imagine.
Karen (12:09):
Absolutely.
And cops told us to.
They said they'd had casesbefore where somebody being
reported as having died and theyshowed up.
So you know, don't give up hope.
We're looking.
And our assumption was thatthey were still looking for him,
which they were.
But um over the next, that nexttwo, they were pursuing two
(12:32):
people that had taken TJ out ina car and it turned out that
they'd gone to Calgary.
So the cops got a phone numberfrom one of the witnesses for
one of the killers and theyphoned it and it was one of
those pay-as-you-go phones andit didn't have any more money on
it so it wasn't going through.
So they put money on it, so itwasn't going through.
So they put money on it and itwent through and one of the
(12:54):
killers, chad Hanser, picked itup in Calgary and that's how
they knew where they were.
So they flew seven policeofficers from Winnipeg to
Calgary and Calgary police didthe arrest and then they
interviewed them there and theygot their confessions there and
then they flew them back towinnipeg.
We still had not been told thattj was dead.
(13:14):
Um, we knew that they had goneto calgary to arrest two people
but we didn't know specificallywhat had happened and the cops
did not want to tell us untilthey had tj's body back.
Kent (13:27):
So they brought them concerned it was going to
interfere with the investigation, or what was their thinking?
Karen (13:32):
uh, I think they felt never, say never, like there's
still a chance that this is not,uh, you know, going to carry
through and that maybe it isn'ttrue, right, um and uh.
So they brought the killersback and there was a raging
blizzard going on and they hadone of them in two, like they
(13:53):
were in two separate cars andthey said take us where you left
the body, and they went out totheir general area but they
couldn't find it because of theblizzard and I think also, I'm
not even sure they reallyremembered where they were, I'm
not sure that they actuallypicked a spot sort of
happenstance is what I think.
Kent (14:12):
A little more chaotic, a little less planned yeah.
Karen (14:15):
And oh no, I think the murder itself was planned, but
where they were going to do itwas not necessarily planned.
The police sergeant came andcame to see us and he had said
that he was coming, I think,around 3.30.
So I'd left work early, floydleft work early, we had the kids
at home, we were waiting and bythis time I had a very strong
(14:37):
feeling that TJ was gone and Ineeded to do something to keep
Stacy and Chad busy.
So I had Stacy start pullingpictures to make posters for a
funeral, pictures of TJ.
And then he came.
The police sergeant came andtold us, basically you know what
had happened to a certaindegree.
(14:58):
They don't tell you everything,right, you don't find out
everything till you go to court.
But he told us that that TJ wasdead and that they had arrested
people for his murder.
They didn't say how many people, because they made these two
arrests and then later on theymade another arrest and later on
they made another arrest.
So we didn't know.
We were surprised when theymade these other arrests.
(15:18):
We didn't know these people.
We knew the name of one, Ithink I talked on the phone to
the guy that was the ringleaderwanted tj to die.
It's the only one that tj knewand um, and then the next day
they went out and they did thepolice line and they walked
through the snow till theykicked him and found him and
you've got this dragged outjourney and now, finally, you,
(15:42):
you have the news and it'sconfirmed.
Kent (15:44):
Yeah, help, uh, help people understand, because I
think often you know people hearabout violence and they read it
in the news maybe, and theydon't get the the finer details
of what families go through whenthey face this news.
What, what kind of transpiredin your home.
What was that news like?
Karen (16:01):
um, it was.
It was really horrifying, um,our kids each had their own
support networks of theirfriends, um, and and we had
tremendous support like we umhad.
Uh, our friends just came outand church people and our
(16:22):
families and so on and so forthand we had tremendous support.
But I mean, you're trying todigest.
You know what does that mean?
Why did why did this happen?
And the police said it wasjealousy and greed you know,
jealousy.
Actually, tj was killed becauseof a girl and um, and then the
killers were going to getwhatever money he had on him and
(16:45):
he was known to carry a fairamount of money, um, the two
that took him in the car andthen the two others that were
charged were not in the car withthem but they, uh, were to get
whatever drugs tj had.
So it was um, it was so much totake in that first of all, your
(17:06):
kid is dead, um, and then,second of all, how they died,
because now it's verycomplicated, right like it's now
, it's going to be the rest ofour lives.
It's the rest of your liveswhen you're a parent, anyways,
when your kid dies.
Kent (17:19):
So I I don't say that this is, say more about that the
rest of your lives.
What do you?
What do you?
Karen (17:25):
well, yeah, I mean you when you have a child in your
family.
They're precious.
Kent (17:29):
Yeah.
Karen (17:30):
And when they're gone there's a hole, and then that
hole is never filled.
Kent (17:37):
It's a lifelong.
It's a lifelong journey.
Karen (17:40):
But when they're murdered, then you end up with a
relationship with the personthat killed them, right, because
you end up seeing the courtprocess through.
And then there is the paroleprocess, and so I'm still going
to parole hearings, my myselfand my kids.
We go to parole hearings everytime there's one that's called
(18:01):
and, uh, I give a statement, mydaughter gives a statement, um,
and that's like reliving thewhole thing.
Kent (18:08):
It's what's that like, what's that experience it's not
really reliving the whole thing.
Karen (18:13):
Unless I choose to tell my story that way, the statement
that you give at a parolehearing is what impact has this
murder had on you?
And you're giving it to theparole board, not to the
offender.
Supposedly right, but I mean,there's ways of writing things.
You say what you need to sayand you know that the offender
is going to is.
(18:34):
He's there, he's going to hearit and plus, he gets a copy of
it before the hearing so he cansee what.
It is right, um, but it is.
It depends on the route thatyou want to take.
I've I've done um variousthings.
One of one of the things that Iwanted to know was stuff I
didn't find out from the, fromthe trial, because the police
(18:57):
don't fully investigate a crimelike that.
They investigate enough so theycan get a conviction.
You know they get all theimportant points.
But there's all the questionsyou have like, for example, why
did they choose where they choseto leave tj's body?
That was a burning question formy husband and he was prepared
to meet with them to ask themthat question.
(19:18):
I said to him, like they'renever, they don't even know.
I'm sure they don't know.
And if they did, how do youknow what they're telling you is
going to be the truth, rightand uh.
And then he died before hecould meet with him.
He had a heart attack and hedied.
But, um, you know, you, you havequestions about, about timing,
(19:39):
about things that are reallyimportant to a parent that the
cops don't care about because itdoesn't impact their case and
um, so using those statements atparole hearings, you can find
that information out.
One of the things that they didwas they lied on the stand
(19:59):
about one of the offenders andthat offender was acquitted and
I knew like he had beenimplicated.
He's the only one that knew TJand I knew that he had been
involved.
I wanted them to admit thatthey'd lied, and so when I did
my statement for a parolehearing, I said like why should
(20:23):
you be released when you liedabout somebody that was involved
in this case and that person iswalking free?
Why, who can trust you?
And the next time there was aparole hearing, they admitted.
The two that were still in jailadmitted that they had lied.
Kent (20:40):
Were there any implications for the individual
that was implicated there?
Karen (20:43):
No, because he'd already been tried and acquitted, so
there was nothing anybody woulddo about it, but for you was it
a sort of a relief, or uh well,I wanted to hear them say it,
but I knew it.
I knew he'd been involved.
I mean, everything led to him.
It was just stupid that he'dever been acquitted, um, but
nonetheless, I knew I wantedthat.
(21:05):
I wanted proof to a lot ofpeople that, yes, this other
person had been involved andother people were making would
make excuses and say, well,maybe he hadn't.
Well, no, he had.
You know, and just because theylied on the stand doesn't mean
that he wasn't involved.
They lied, for whatever reasonsthat they got out of it.
Kent (21:25):
So it was important to me that they had to admit that so
then, tell us a little bit aboutthe sentencing what actually
happened, how, how long theperpetrators went away so there
were four people that werecharged.
Karen (21:38):
The first person that was charged, uh, sat behind tj
in the car and did pretty mucheverything to him.
They did a number of things tohim to kill him, and when they
left he wasn't dead.
It was January 5th, so he died.
He had the first trial.
His name was Anthony Pulsifer.
He was found guilty by a juryof second-degree murder and
(22:03):
conspiracy to commitfirst-degree murder, which
doesn't seem to me to work.
It should have beenfirst-degree or not, but our
court system is such that theyare allowed to find whatever
they chose.
And he received a sentence of15 years to life, which means
that he had to be in jail for 15years, and after 15 years he
(22:26):
would be on parole for the restof his life.
Interestingly enough, he isstill 22 years later in jail,
and so this is.
Kent (22:38):
There were other offenses that took place when he was in
jail?
No, or that just.
Karen (22:41):
No, this is about TJ.
He has not earned the abilityto be out and the parole board
has seen that and I'm doingeverything I can to provide the
impact that he's had on us tokeep him there, to provide the
impact that he's had on us tokeep him there.
(23:01):
I'm not going to say that Ihave any power over that, but I
write powerful statements and Iwant them to understand the
impact that he's had.
Obviously, he's not doing whathe needs to do or he'd be out
anyways.
And you know, I'm a christianperson and I believe in the
power of prayer and I believethat he's.
He's there because we'reworking to keep him there.
(23:22):
Um, there's a small part of methat wonders.
You know, he received seconddegree murder for all the things
that he deliberately did, andit was, it was a planned murder.
So, um, I I wonder sometimes ifthe parole board doesn't see
(23:44):
that he should have had firstdegree and it's keeping him for
the 25 years they're kind ofseeing it as premeditated well,
it's definitely premeditated.
premeditated is there's noquestion about it.
And um, and what I reallyappreciate about the parole
board is that when I write astatement they hold him to
account for what I've said in mystatement.
Um, I've had witnesses contactme, afraid that if he gets out
(24:09):
and some of the other peoplehave gotten out, um, that
they're going to be at risk andand I've said that to the parole
board, like, I've beencontacted by people that are
worried, you know, and then theywill tell him, you know, they
will question him about that.
The parole board is in WesternCanada anyways, I have not seen
(24:32):
them in our situation.
I have never seen them be whatpeople think the parole board is
kind of a revolving door.
I've never seen them in oursituation.
I've never seen them be whatpeople think the parole board is
kind of a revolving door.
I've never seen that.
Kent (24:40):
You're satisfied with the justice system, absolutely how
it worked for you.
Karen (24:45):
No, I'm satisfied with the parole board Okay.
Kent (24:49):
Yeah, I guess the justice system missed that charge.
Karen (24:52):
The justice system is everything from the cops till
they're not in parole anymore,and that's never going to happen
for him for the rest of hislife.
I've spent the other part of mylife the bulk of my life since
TJ's died trying to get justicefor people through the courts,
(25:13):
through the laws being changedand stuff like that.
Kent (25:15):
Let me just say that's an unbelievable story and, um, so
many people who would have gonethrough something like you and
your husband went through andyour family went through would
just want to survive and get by.
But you've done more, you're,you're.
I want to hear a little bitabout how, how, uh, that tragic
loss of tj, how you sort ofredeemed parts of that by
(25:40):
reaching, by helping.
Like what are, what are youdoing to help victims?
Help me understand.
Karen (25:43):
Well, we knew we, we needed a response.
My husband and I are all.
We have always beencommunity-minded.
We did our young people'sgroups at church.
I've been a church choir leader.
We, uh floyd did cubs andscouts.
Um, you know, we've we'vealways been involved in the
(26:04):
community in some way or other.
He was baseball convener forbonnie vettel and and stuff like
that and, and so it wasinconceivable to us that
something of this magnitudecould happen and we could go on,
just go on with our everydaylives.
Well, first of all, thatdoesn't happen.
Your life is never the same.
We did 180 degree turn in ourlives and my husband was a
(26:30):
successful businessman, I was ateacher and you know that's all
I ever wanted to do was be ateacher.
But it became clear that, youknow, we needed to do something.
We needed to have a response towhat happened to TJ, and so, in
having the response, what wefelt we really needed to do was
support other families as theywere going through this, and
(26:53):
that summer the year that TJdied, I think, there was one
every week or every second weekof kids that were dying, that
somehow were drug related orsome kind of violence.
So we created a fund with theLouis Riel school division where
(27:13):
the money from the funeralwould go into this fund so that
kids could help kids not dodrugs.
Because I mean, obviously kidsaren't listening to parents,
right and um.
So we thought, okay, the way toreach kids is through their
friends.
Empower their friends and thefriends will be safe, and then
(27:34):
they will empower their friends.
So that's how we decided wewould do it, and so we raised,
not raised.
We were given money at TJ'sfuneral.
What do you do with this money?
You know, give it to the HumaneSociety is a good idea, but we
needed it to be more focused toour situation.
So we created this fund inLouisville and gave the money to
(27:54):
them and it had to be used.
It was supposed to be used forprograms where kids helped kids
not do drugs.
And then we went through courtand that took about four years
because there are four offenders.
And I mean it's just on and onand on and on.
Kent (28:11):
So you're at the funeral of your son.
You're already having thewellbeing of others in mind.
Karen (28:15):
Oh, before the funeral, I son, you're already having the
well-being of others in mind oh, before the funeral I'm I find
that, I find that staggeringbecause, because the the pain,
the agony that we were goingthrough is not something you
wish on anything anybody.
I don't wish it on tj'skiller's parents.
What we live with I it'shorrendous, it's, it's
(28:38):
unbelievable pain to lose achild that way.
Um, the loss of a child isalways terrible.
The loss of a loved one isterrible.
The loss of a child is is theworst pain that a parent will go
through, and the only thingthat's worse than that is losing
another one.
You know, and so, like we knew,we'd read the pick up the paper
(28:58):
and read that you know this,and the next thing had happened,
and the next thing had happened, and the next thing had
happened.
Kent (29:04):
And it was like we have to reach out to those people
because you would pick up thephone and or how would you get
in touch with, with folks?
Karen (29:12):
uh, well it was a lot easier when we had a phone book
cell phones have really made itvery difficult, yeah um, but we
could, you know, in somesituations.
I remember one case, and thismom now is very involved with
compassionate friends but thiskid went to the same school as
tj, had the same name, was thesame age and died a year later.
(29:34):
I think it was a year later ormaybe six months later, I can't
remember, but anyways around thetime, and they might have known
each other when they went toschool, because it's the same
school, um, and you know you're,you're instantly connected to
that person, um.
And we found that with otherpeople, like, nobody will
(29:56):
understand what we're livingwith unless they live with it.
And all the supportorganizations, they all do their
bit.
The families, the friends.
They're all trying so hard tomake it better and to fix it.
And it's unfixable and theycan't make it better.
You just have to survive it andpeople don't understand that,
(30:17):
but when you're living with it,you understand it.
So it for people like us toreach out to other people that
are going through this.
Kent (30:25):
We may be their life ring I'm curious, um, when you went
through it in those early weeks,did anyone reach out to you
with that kind of help, or wereyou alone?
Karen (30:35):
uh, there was nobody that we knew that had a homicide
.
Nobody reached out to you withthat kind of help.
Or were you alone?
Uh, there was nobody that weknew that had a homicide.
Nobody reached out to us thathad a homicide.
Initially, um, everybodyreached out like so much, so
many people were so good to us,our, even our employers.
I worked for permanent trails.
They paid for me to attendcourt.
Uh, never took it off my sicktime and they put a letter in my
(30:57):
file saying anytime I needed togo to court I was released.
My husband had the samesituation with his work.
So I mean we were very blessedthat way.
Kent (31:06):
But actual people with lived experience.
You kind of had to go it alone.
Karen (31:10):
Until we went to court.
When we went to court, we met awonderful woman whose name is
Darlene Rempel at the timethere's now Darlene Rempel
Fillion and she had begun MOVAin 2000.
Tj was died in 2003.
She had started MOVA in 2000.
At that time it was for victimsof violent crime so it could
(31:31):
have been sexual abuse or a lotof things.
but she came, came to court withus and she explained what a
voyeur was.
She explained who the court, thepeople that come to court just
to watch what's going on,interested people that are, you
know, wanting to see what's.
She told us about those people,because we were wondering who's
(31:52):
in this room, like who elseknows TJ, but they weren't there
.
Because you know tj, they wereinterested in the case, right,
um, she was there with us somuch she was amazing and she
started mova and so you know,eventually both of floyd's
sisters actually became involvedwith mova, um, and then
(32:14):
eventually I became involved,involved and Floyd was always
involved with it.
Floyd was the person that was,you know, he was vice president
of Compassionate Friends Canadaand he was involved with MOVA
and he was he was the firstchairperson for the Victims
Advisory Council for to theParole Board and Correctional
Service of Canada for thePrairie Region, and so we were
(32:38):
always, he was always right outin front advocating for victims
and I was teaching.
So I mean, I only had so muchtime and running TJ's Gift.
So, I didn't do as much of thatas he did.
Kent (32:53):
But then, after I retired from teaching, then I had more
time to do it uh, this story hasbeen one of just like,
incredible loss, incredible pain, but the the fact that you were
able to transform this intosomething that that has an
impact in the community is just.
It speaks to the depth of yourcharacter and who you are, who
you and Floyd were, and uh, so,so what, exactly?
(33:14):
What are the?
What are the kinds of servicesor outreach that you offer
families that are going through?
What does that look like?
Karen (33:21):
Well, first of all we have to find them.
That's become more difficultbecause we don't have a phone
book.
So you know, you see the namein the paper.
It might not be the name of thesame name as parents, right?
So that's the first obstacle wehave to overcome.
Um and um, if we can trackthose people down, sometimes
(33:43):
it's a matter of saying to thepolice please give these people
our, my, our phone number.
Kent (33:50):
Um, and they've done that they're generally cooperative on
that well because particularlymore with my husband.
Karen (33:57):
I think he had a very good relationship with the cops
and homicide in particulardepartments so he would give
information, his phone number orwhatever to them In a
particular case he'd talk aboutit with them, give them his
phone number, ask him to havethe people call him if they
wanted to.
They always did yeah.
(34:18):
And then it would form arelationship, and then we form a
family, more of a familyrelationship.
Um, now it's it's verydifficult to do that.
Uh, we, we have to rely more onpeople reaching out to mova or
to tj's gift, um Gift, and so wehave our information out there.
(34:40):
The police, victim Services ofthe Province, the hospitals,
funeral homes, they all havebrochures and letters from us
that we hope they'll give.
Victims of homicide, familiesso they will contact us.
Families that they so they willcontact us and uh, it, it, we
(35:03):
don't get contacted by familiesfor homicide in by any means.
All of them like we.
We only get people that are youknow.
They get to a point wherethey're desperate and they need
help, right, and uh, they'relooking and they're looking for
help because they get a bigstack of brochures and that from
the cops, from victim servicesand so on.
(35:23):
They don't necessarily have themind to go through them, but
they get to a point where theyneed to know that there are
people around that are like them.
Kent (35:31):
Right.
So a number of times you'vealluded to TJ's Gift and I'd
like to hear a little bit moreabout what that is, what that
provides and how it's making adifference in our community.
Karen (35:51):
Well, tj's Gift started off from the fund that we gave
Louis Riel actually Took us fouryears to get through court and
that was very intense, so weended up having to wait until
that was done.
And then we created a um, aboard of sorts, sort of steering
committee of our friends andfamily.
Um, when tj died, we knew wewere going to have a huge
(36:17):
funeral and we were preparingfor a thousand people.
Quite simply, we went to getfood for a thousand people and
realized it was ten dollars aperson.
It would have been ten thousanddollars for just food for his
funeral and when you have amurder in your family you're not
(36:38):
prepared for that, you know wedidn't have money set aside for
our kids funerals, so ourfriends all got together and
made sandwiches and desserts andserved them at the funeral that
and then we went over andvisited with them after the
funeral.
You know how people will gettogether after a big event yeah
(36:59):
and uh, they said we're really,you know, sorry that we couldn't
do some kind of a function thatwould raise some money, uh, to
put into louis riel.
So we decided that we wouldhave a big dinner and dance and
650 people came AmazingGovernment, teachers, families,
(37:23):
all kinds of people.
We raised $54,000 in one nightand we gave it all to Louis Riel
.
And then we thought, gee, soLouis Riel's looked after, what
about all the other kids in theprovince?
So, with a steering committee,we started planning and then we
(37:45):
went from that to a board, anadvisory board, and we became
incorporated and went the routeof, you know, becoming more
formal and uh, and then started,um, having fundraising galas
every year, raising the money,and then we put it into, uh,
tj's gift foundation we created.
(38:06):
And then what we do with thatis, um, I will go out to schools
and talk to kids about whathappened to tj and talk about
choices.
We had a video, professionallymade, called choices and we
encourage kids to do projects.
We encourage schools.
The problem, of course, is thatit's not just the kids, right,
(38:28):
the.
They have to have a teacherthat's going to be supporting
them through it and if we, ifthey can find a teacher that
will help them do a projectwhere they help other kids not
do drugs, um, then we pay forall their expenses for it.
Amazing.
And then, on top of that, ofcourse I don't know if you know
anything about music teachers,of which I am um, but we get
(38:52):
bored with things and we need todo something different.
But you never stop doing whatyou initially did right, so it
just adds in, adds in.
So then I decided, okay, well,kids listen to music.
How can we reach them with tjstory through music?
So we decided to hold a concertat the mts center.
We rented the mts center.
(39:13):
I contacted kevin donnelly hewas wonderful, how do you do
this?
I have no clue right.
And he said, well, this is whatyou do.
And so he said, okay, well,give us a date and we're going
to rent you guys and inviteevery kid, every school, from
grade 7 on to grade 12, for afree concert.
(39:34):
We are going to get localmusicians and we're going to put
on a concert to help kids besafe.
We actually were involvedinitially with Bubba B.
Bubba B, the MC, and he hadcontacted the mayor, who at that
(39:55):
time was Mayor Cates and wasmaking arrangements for us to
use a concert hall.
That all fell through.
So then we decided okay, well,we're going to go with the MTS
Center and we'll pay for it.
We had enough money in the bankthat we could pay for it.
So we ran to the MTS Center.
We sent invitations to everyhigh school within a reasonable
(40:18):
distance of Winnipeg and inWinnipeg and every junior high.
At that point it was justtransitioning to middle schools.
But anybody that had grade 7and up come to this concert.
It's free and it's just to helpkids not do drugs.
And the most I think we everhad was around 3 500 kids.
Amazing um.
And the first year we hadsierra noble, we had baba b, we
(40:42):
had a group, uh called um.
Uh, what was their name?
I can't remember.
They're great kids.
They were kids that we used alot and they came from dakota
collegiate.
They they've separated andchanged their names many times
since then, but um, maximum 60wonderful and uh, and we put on
(41:05):
this concert at the mts centerand um, each of the groups,
their responsibility was toperform, but they also had the
responsibility to talk to theirkids about not doing drugs,
about their experiences withmaybe having done drugs and made
choices to not do that anymore,about their experiences with
(41:28):
having friends or family thathad been involved in drugs and
what that had been like,experiences with having friends
or family that had been involvedin drugs and what that had been
like.
Um, but every band had to have,um, you know, a, a testimony
for lack of a better word aboutwhy they didn't do drugs.
Um and uh, it was huge, youknow, it was amazing.
And we also then, one year, wetook maximum 60 out to schools.
(41:55):
We did 20 schools in 20 days, Ithink it was, and they went
into schools and did a concert.
I talked about tj, they talkedabout why they didn't do drugs
and it was just total outreach.
We give the kids a card.
It's a business-shaped card.
It's got got a picture of TJ onthe front of it and it's a
pledge card.
(42:15):
And the pledge card is for themonly.
It's not for anybody else butthem, and I tell them that,
first of all, you don't have totake one of these Like this.
There's no card police here tosee who's taking cards and who
isn't.
This is offered to you.
If you want it, take it.
If you don't want it, pleasedon't take it and throw it in
(42:37):
the garbage.
I don't want to see TJ's facein the garbage and we offer it
to kids and then I give them myphone number, and Flood used to
do the same thing.
This is our cell number.
When you've signed your cardcard, take a picture of it and
text it to us.
We'll answer your text, butthen you also have a conduit if
(43:00):
you need to talk and, um, youknow, I've, I've given my phone
number out.
I want to say to I don't know,maybe 20 000 kids and I've
probably had six or seven prankcalls out of that it's gonna
happen, I guess it happens, butI mean like 20 000 kids yeah,
(43:23):
amazing and it's my personalcell phone, so I mean they could
.
Kent (43:27):
Yeah, they don't well, karen, we're, uh, you have an
amazing story and and the depthof respect I have for you, for
how you've taken something darkand terrible and, uh, and I
imagine you still walk with thatdarkness and it's still a
challenge yes but, uh, the wayyou've given back.
I want to say, on behalf of ourcommunity and the wider winnipeg
(43:51):
and all those families who havebeen through this, a big thank
you for all of the heart thatyou've given themselves upon us.
But it's encouraging to hearthat there's things we can do to
(44:16):
make a difference and, karen,for you and your husband and
your family, you've done justthat and I want to say thank you
.
Karen (44:23):
Oh well, you know it's good work.
It needs to be done, and I'mglad that I'm able to do it.
Kent (44:30):
Thank you.
Thanks for tuning in toDangerous Ideas for Social
Change.
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