September 11, 2025 • 31 mins
Why don't domestic violence victims "just leave"? This question reveals a profound misunderstanding of the invisible prison that is an abusive relationship. Jennifer Capezza from LI Against Domestic Violence returns to guide us through the complex web of barriers that keep victims trapped, often for years or decades.
The conversation begins with sobering statistics – one in three women experience abuse in their lifetime, but these numbers only reflect reported cases. Domestic violence victims face a unique challenge: unlike other crimes, they're frequently disbelieved. As Jennifer explains, "It's the only crime that falls into that category."
Using the high-profile P Diddy case as an illustration, Jennifer breaks down the concept of coercive control – a psychological prison where victims have no free will. "By definition, the crime itself prevents somebody from leaving," she explains, drawing parallels to cult indoctrination and Stockholm syndrome. This helps us understand why someone like Cassie might return to her abuser despite horrific treatment.
The podcast explores how abuse occurs in six interconnected forms: physical, verbal, emotional, sexual, financial, and cyber. What makes domestic violence particularly insidious is how these forms layer upon each other. Jennifer provides a powerful example of how threatening to break someone's phone simultaneously represents financial abuse, emotional manipulation, implied physical threat, and isolation – all without raising a hand.
Perhaps most eye-opening is the revelation about attempts to leave. While statistics suggest it takes 7-9 documented attempts before leaving permanently, Jennifer argues these numbers only reflect visible actions. In reality, victims contemplate escape "hundreds or even thousands of times" – making mental plans, considering options, and hitting barriers repeatedly before any visible action occurs.
The episode concludes with a commitment to explore financial and safety barriers in part two, and a reminder that help is available 24/7. Whether you're personally affected or simply seeking understanding, this conversation offers crucial insights into the complex psychology of domestic violence and why the question should never be "Why don't they leave?" but rather "What keeps them trapped?"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Date and Daycare, where we help you
navigate through the jungle ofjerks.
And today I'm super excitedbecause we have Jennifer
Cappezza on, who we've hadbefore from Long Island.
Domestic help me out, jen Ally,against Domestic Violence.
There you go, and we lovehaving you on your back.
Island domestic Help me out,jen Ally, against domestic
violence.
There you go, and we lovehaving you on your back.
(00:29):
I'm so happy Jennifer contactedme and wanted to come back on.
And what are we going to bediscussing today?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
We are going to be discussing in detail.
Quote why don't they just leavePerfect so?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
women that are in different situations, whether
it's abusive, even non abusive,can kind of go into that.
Why don't they just leave Right?
We always say, oh, he's beatingyou, he's a drug addict, he's
this, he's that, he's such ahorrible, you don't just leave
Right.
So tell us, jen, why don't theyleave?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Right, so tell us, jen, be good to take a deep dive
.
So I'm going to do like a briefreview of the conversation of
what those relationships looklike.
I will refer to our previousepisode for a deeper dive,
obviously.
And then the barriers toleaving are really broken up
into um.
I mean, there's tons, but forthe sake of our conversation, is
(01:50):
the emotional barriers, thefinancial barriers and the
safety barriers three of sort ofthree areas that have the most
common um complaints orchallenges that we hear yeah
right exactly, exactly.
And you know one of the thingsthat I always say, to like a
quick note about content.
This can get really heavy.
(02:11):
We have to have theconversation.
I can't be delicate about it,Because if you're delicate about
it and you're dancing around itand you're vague, then you're
not telling the truth.
If you're not telling the truth,you can't be helpful.
You can't be helpful, right?
So, while I will be gentle, itis the truth, right.
So I sort of caution folks,because we are going to talk in
more detail about what thatreally looks like.
(02:32):
The experiences thatindividuals have men, women,
children, regardless because itis one in three women, the sort
of famous statistic, if you will, is that one in three women
experience some form of abuse intheir lifetime.
The stat for that is somewherearound one in seven men.
(02:52):
The stat is somewhere aroundthe same for the LGBTQIA
population.
It is higher for thetransgender population.
It is higher for the black andbrown population.
But one of the things that wealways like to remind folks is
that's what's reported.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Right, and that's what we know Right.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Exactly, a ton isn't reported and a ton isn't
reported and, frankly, that'sone of the barriers, right there
is that nobody knows what'sgoing on.
Right, they don't know what theresources are available to them
.
One of the reasons it's notreported, or one of the reasons
it's a challenge even afterreporting, is people don't
(03:35):
believe them.
They are not believed and it'sthe only crime that falls into
that category.
Like if I came in here and waschit-chatting with you and told
you my house got robbed lastnight, you, your first instinct
would not to be.
I don't really right what doyou mean?
are you sure you know like no,no, I'm really sure like you
(03:57):
know, I was there, you know, Iwas there, you know, and that
that's not that.
That's's the conversation.
I mean, we were unfortunatelyreminded of this with the P
Diddy.
Oh my God.
Verdict Okay, talk about peoplenot being believed.
There is video proof, right,video proof, and it's not even
(04:18):
like one of those grainy blackand white cameras from the 90s.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Like it is clear.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It is literally, literally clear in black and
white what happened and yet, andyet those women are not
believed.
Um, you know, this is not aboutpolitics, but say what you want
about the epstein situation,but we wouldn't need to see a
list, the list would not need tobe released, if we just
believed the women that havecome forward.
(04:44):
Correct.
So part of what we're going totalk about at the end is
changing community consciousnessrelated to this right.
But that is a huge, huge issueis that this crime is
underreported.
Much of this crime isn't even acrime, right, because it's not
illegal to call somebody namesand be mean to them.
(05:06):
Um, I don't mean to sound soflippant about it, but that's
you know what I mean.
Like that's, that's what it is,and the other part of it is that
, um, part of the reasonsthey're not believed is because
we still have a stereotype inour heads about what a DV victim
looks like, what a perpetratorlooks like, what DV looks like
(05:28):
right.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
And then I think also , like you said, the P Diddy
case is very you know, if youwant to say in vogue, right now.
I mean the fact that his defenselawyer was even able to go in
there after.
I think it was Cassie who saidthat she was in a, whatever they
(05:50):
called it, a freak off for.
I think she said 92 hours,something like that.
Yeah and oh well, you agreed,you agreed, you agreed.
Why didn't you leave?
Why didn't you leave?
Why didn't you leave?
Why didn't you leave?
So explain to us why Cassiedidn't leave.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, first of all, it's coercive control, and if
you Google coercive control,which they mentioned in the
trial, Yep, there is no suchthing as free will when that is
the case, if I decided that Idid not want to finish this
conversation, I could get up andleave.
Yes, cassie, couldn't do that.
There's also when you considerthe human trafficking components
(06:31):
of that case.
For human trafficking to exist,there has to be force, fraud or
coercion.
So, by definition, the crimeitself prevents somebody.
There's no free will there,right, there's no free will
there.
I don't have free will to leaveif you are holding X, anything
over my head, which is also, bythe way, elements of an abusive
relationship as well, but Cassiedid not have free will to leave
(06:53):
.
Also, we're all very familiar,even if it's sort of from a
novelty standpoint, the idea ofStockholm syndrome.
Right, you cannot, you'rebrainwashed, right.
It's frankly like being in acult, like for, effectively, in
a lot of ways, right Casting,and everybody sort of has a
better idea of what cults arenow, as a result of things like
Leah Remini's work inScientology and podcasts and all
(07:18):
that kind of stuff.
So like if, even if you can'treally comprehend what it is to
be in a domestic violencesituation or what it is to be in
a situation where you don'thave free will, think about what
cult members deal with and how,arguably, they're here free and
that's something that like evenum, oh, jonestown.
Like when you, when you uh,listen or watch the
(07:41):
documentaries on jonestown, andwhen the senator came in and the
guy's like and he, he's likelook, everybody can leave, right
.
And they're all like yeah, wecan totally leave, we're totally
happy, yeah we're great, andwe're great as they're slipping
paper as they're slipping notesto the senator.
somebody helped me, or it said,get us out of here, or something
like that, it said you know, soforced fraud and coercion exist
, has to exist for humantrafficking.
(08:02):
Unless the victim is under theage of 18, then all bets are off
that's irrelevant, becausethat's a child, right they're a
minor um.
So, by definition, either I'mcommitting fraud against you,
right?
I am um forcing you to do this,like it's in the statute.
I'm forcing you to do this, orI am coercing you in some way.
(08:22):
Okay, so tell me where the freewill comes, and tell me where
she could have left.
There is none no, no, not tomention the power differential
between somebody like rightexactly.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
She walked down the hallway.
He beat the living shit out ofher.
She tried to get away and shetried to right.
Oh, by the way down the hallway.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh, that's right.
She tried to leave right, likeif that isn't the perfect sort
of visual example of.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
But then they say to play devil's advocate, they say
she didn't live with him, shewent back to her house.
She got out of that, but thenshe went to go see him again,
like she went back, but did she?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Here's again, though.
Where's the free will?
Where did she go willingly?
You don't know the force, fraudor coercion that brought her
back there.
You don't know what he hadhanging over her head, right?
You don't know anything aboutit?
Yes, you don't know anythingabout it.
Google coercive control.
Also, there is an unbelievableleader in the field that really
(09:15):
does a lot of outreach andeducation related to that phrase
and what that really looks likeLaura Richards.
She is, or she was, formerly onthe podcast.
Yeah um real crime profile.
Okay, um with the creator,producer of criminal minds, the
guy that aaron hotchner's um umcharacter on criminal minds is
(09:38):
based off of, and they go intodetail describing that yeah,
she's formerly of like london.
Uh, I forget what they call thelike, the london equivalent of
like the fbi and stuff like thatshe's like national law
enforcement over there andfounded like the paladin
national stalking center.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
She's amazing, amazing.
Well, so is that up?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
yeah, so is um jim clemente, like he's amazing as
well.
But laura richards, inparticular, is she will.
I couldn't do.
I couldn't do her justice if Iattempted to explain coercive
control the way that she does.
So if you google laura richardsand or coercive control, she
also like I mean, she's amazing,she's amazing.
She's like a superhero so um,and you know one of the things
(10:17):
they talk about on that podcast.
One of the reasons why a lot oftimes folks aren't believed
this is a perfect example um isthat they have a stereotype well
sean combs like he's a giant inhis field.
He also, by the way, up untilrecently, up until all of this
um came to light had a prettydecent reputation.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Well to yeah, to us as the people out of hollywood,
but in hollywood.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Supposedly they knew what a piece of shit well, they
know, they always know, theyknow they knew about cosby, they
knew about all of them, like,like.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Harvey Weinstein, a lot of people for you.
We didn't know as the public.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
But tell me how that trial was not tried in the court
of public opinion first, please, because it's who you know,
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That's why what judge , what lawyer and who you know.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And it's not just because he's famous and had a
somewhat decent I mean, let'sface it, the man is unbelievably
talented.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
But that doesn't give you the right to do whatever
you want to do.
No, but that's the privilege.
That's where the privilegecomes from.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And that's where the power differentiates.
And you said well, he can't bean offender, he is X, violence,
abuse, human trafficking,coercive control, any of that
force, fraud or coercion.
It is an indiscriminatepredator.
(11:47):
It is like a cancer.
It knows no age, no race, nosocioeconomic background.
It doesn't care where you live,how you dress, what car is in
your driveway, where, if you goto church on sundays.
So that is one of the sort ofdeck clearing thing that like
out on the table that I like toput out there, yep.
Um, the other thing to keep inmind is that, while one in three
, one in seven like that's alittle bit of a vague number um,
(12:09):
every minute, 24 people people,not just women, not just
whatever people are victims ofsome form of abuse.
Every minute, 24 people.
So like by the end of thisconversation, over 2 000 people
right will be a victim of somesort of abuse.
right, that's 12 millionamericans each year and 3.5
(12:30):
billion children, and again,these are the reported cases.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Right, this is what we know, and there's a ton of
unreported.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
So when you consider that?
So let's first look at whenthey do try to leave.
Let's look at that for a second.
Okay, the stats show that ittakes, on average, seven to nine
times of attempts to leave anabusive relationship before you
leave for good.
I think that's BS.
I'll tell you why Again that isdocumented Right.
(13:02):
That's documented, that'sassuming, that's when you're
looking at those kinds of stats.
That's like the police came tothe house, that's like they
called our hotline Right.
So what I suggest or what Ithink and this is, by the way, I
work with clients every day.
I talk to the women in ourshelter.
We have had women in ourshelter years apart.
(13:24):
Where they come in, they goback and then a year or two
years later we had one client.
I think I told her story.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
And the last time I was here that was in our shelter
25 years apart because she wentback to her husband and then
she came back to us.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, they don't change ladies, right side fun
fact, fun fact.
But like that too was.
So you could say that clienttried twice to leave.
No, uh right, no way.
Yeah, that is not what actuallyhappened, because these stats
do not take into account what isprobably 10 times a day.
They think about it, oh yeah,they contemplate it.
They don't underestimate whatis likely to be hundreds or even
(14:03):
thousands of times that thatindividual leaves the
relationship in their head, intheir head, thinks about it,
makes plans, waxes poeticallyabout what it would be like on
the other side and and hits,even mentally or emotionally,
hits, barrier after barrierafter barrier, and stops right
(14:27):
do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And then they let time go by and then try again.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah.
So consider that it's not justwhat you see on the surface,
it's not just that client thatcame to us twice in 25 years.
Don't tell me that in that 25years she didn't consider
hundreds and thousands of timesor made smaller efforts to leave
, or maybe even said to herhusband hey, if X and Y doesn't
(14:51):
happen, I'm going to leave, andthen X and Y obviously.
Hey, if x and y doesn't happen,I'm gonna leave, and then x and
y obviously didn't happen andshe went out for the day
shopping and then came home likedo you know what I'm saying?
like that is that's an attemptto leave, and just for
argument's sake.
Um, intimate partner violenceis the blanket term.
There's other terms familyviolence, relationship abuse, um
, domestic violence, all of thatstuff, teen dating violence.
(15:13):
Ultimately, that relates toprogramming right at the end of
the day.
Intimate partner violencebecause you don't have to be
married, you don't have to be aheterosexual, uh, couple, you
don't have to be cisgender,heteronormative or anything.
You don't have to be married.
You don't even have to beliving together, which goes back
to the conversation about thePDD case, right, where she
(15:35):
wasn't living there.
She wasn't even living there.
It doesn't matter, becauseforced fraud, coercion, abuse
can happen, right.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I mean far apart, you don't even know.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Like we have a client who the offender has been in
jail for years and she stillgets somehow text messages or
emails or things from him fromjail, like you know, and he's
like upstate, you know what Imean.
Um, also, the phrase victimversus survivor for argument's
sake, um, we sort of use theterm victim when we're talking
(16:05):
about somebody who's currentlyin the situation and then
survivor once they've left.
Also just for the record,victim is like a law enforcement
term.
So because somebody has to bethe victim of the crime and
somebody has to be theperpetrator or whatever.
So that's also why you hearthose so a lot of times.
You hear those uh phrases usedinterchangeably, um, um.
(16:26):
It's ultimately just for thepurposes of these conversations.
We kind of say victim, as insomebody who's currently
experiencing it versus asurvivor who has left and what
have you right?
Also, you'll hear me say theword client a lot, because those
that receive our services werefer to as clients, right.
(16:47):
And what is intimate partnerviolence?
It is a pattern of coercivebehavior again, pattern,
coercive course of the key wordhere in a relationship that's
used by one person to gain ormaintain power and control over
the other.
I go deep, dive into that, umin our previous episode, um, but
(17:07):
ultimately what happens is Ialways say, like a normal person
says oh, I'm sorry, but Iwanted to X or I wanted to Y,
and the other person might say,oh, I'm sorry too.
And what have you?
An abuser says I'm sorry, butyou Right, I'm sorry.
But that I'm sorry, but work,I'm sorry, but all of the things
(17:27):
that have nothing to do with me, Right, things that have
nothing to do with me, right.
And for argument's sake again, Igo deeper into this in our
previous episode is that there'sactually six different forms of
abuse from a behavioral healthstandpoint not necessarily
legally, but from a behavioralhealth standpoint and from a
trauma infliction standpoint.
Obviously, everybody's familiarwith physical.
We have the verbal aspect,which is the name calling.
(17:50):
The emotional aspect, which isthe manipulation, the
gaslighting and such sexualassault, which is any intimate
contact without your consent.
Financial, which we're going togo even deeper into in this
conversation.
And, of course, cyber, meaningthey use anything related to
cell phone.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
What have you?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
right related to cell phone.
What have you right?
So, of the barriers, there'slike three categories that I
said we're going to discussEmotional, financial and the
safety barriers, right?
Okay, so, and the other partabout that is the
intersectionality Because of thesix different forms of abuse.
It's not like In real life, solike in my PowerPoint.
(18:33):
In my PowerPoint it's got thisneat graphic Like oh, look the
little circles, and it's neatlyorganized.
Thank you, microsoft PowerPoint.
How can we say it?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
to the audience that, like you know that, they'll
just understand.
Like these are, you know themainstream reasons Like so
coercion, people don't leavebecause of that Abuse.
You know hitting, pulling youback down the hall where you try
to leave.
That's physical, it's allabusive Right.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So let's look at the intersectionality of how those
categories of abuse layer.
Like it becomes layers.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Right, they do all of that.
They do all of it in manydifferent ways, which makes it
ten times worse.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Exactly so, like, for example, let's say, I get my
hands on your phone, right, thisis your phone.
And I get my hands on it andsay this is the only connection
you have to your family, and youdid something that pissed me
off, right.
And now we're arguing and I'mholding it above my head and I'm
(19:39):
threatening to break it and I'mtelling you that if you don't x
, y, whatever, or say you'resorry or tell me you'll never do
it again, I am going to destroythis phone.
And what, if you like hereyou're a podcaster Is your phone
not an access Right.
You do take right.
It is a part of your financialincome or it facilitates part of
(20:05):
your financial income.
Right and now, this is afinancial aspect.
Also, if you don't have accessto the family finances, you're
not going to be able to replacethis Right you can't get a new
phone once you break it, and I'mtelling you that if you don't
make it right or if you don't bewilling to do whatever, it is,
I'm going to take it.
I'm going to take it, I'm goingto break it.
Now, what did I do?
(20:25):
I threatened physical propertyBecause, by the way, what I'm
really doing Is manipulation.
What I'm doing is saying, if I'mwilling to do this to your
phone, I'm willing to do it toyou.
Also, if I do actually breakthis phone or like we hear a lot
of stories about, like chairsbeing thrown against walls or
holes being punched in walls,what they're actually saying is
(20:45):
you're next, right.
So I've threatened youfinancially.
Right, because I threatened youfinancially because that's
access.
I have threatened youemotionally because that's
access to your family or friends, and I'm sure I'm hailing
verbal insults, right.
And what did I do?
I never raised a hand to youand I never raised my voice,
(21:08):
right?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
And all of that is layered.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So one of the things that you have to understand that
it's not just these six sort ofneat little categories.
It's yelling, it's bruises,it's blame, it's loneliness,
it's the fear of starting overDepression.
Let's not forget, and let usnot underestimate the physical
implications of it all in thesense of the mental health
(21:34):
Right't has the plummet helloright, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Like a prisoner in your own home.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
You are right, you are right and and, and not least
of which, potentially, isbecause I, as the offender, have
convinced you that you are nogood right.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
No one's gonna want you.
Nobody's gonna survive withoutme.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I put up with you.
I do you a favor, right, byputting up with you.
Why can't you just accept mefor who I am?
Right, you should accept me forwho I am.
You'll never get better theshame, the humiliation, the
gaslighting, I think I said.
And then there's more dangerousthings like stalking.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Right and the physical threats right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So it is all layered on top of each other and it's
all abuse.
Of course, and it's all traumaand the layers is what makes it
so complicated.
So let's look at emotionalbarriers, not least of which is
so we're going to go through abunch of them, not least of
which is the gaslighting.
(22:34):
Right, this is a term that getsthrown around a lot, but I want
to be real clear about what itreally is and what the clinical
definition is.
It will make you question yourown reality, right?
So, like you hear people say, Icouldn't believe my eyes.
Well, you literally cannotbelieve your own eyes or ears or
(22:57):
logic or anything.
You think you are crazy.
You had told a fantastic storywhen we were together last about
how your former partner keptsetting off the alarm right in
the house and then, by the endof the night, had you convinced
that you were the problembecause you had a problem with
him setting the alarm.
He was just trying to fix it,right?
What do you mean?
Just trying to fix it?
(23:17):
What do you mean Just?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
trying to fix it.
Whatever, why can't you keepthese kids?
The babies kept waking up.
They kept screaming.
We had school the next day.
Everybody was exhausted.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
In the meantime, he had you convinced it was your
problem and your fault, becauseyou couldn't keep the kids calm
Screamed and yelled.
And all he was fix the thingright, right, the shake, and
that goes into shame.
They will shame you into anygiven thing.
They'll.
They'll shame you aboutanything, right so like you
can't even look yourself in themirror, do?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
you know what I mean.
Right, you get to that point.
Yeah, it's layered.
And then that, you know, comesfrom all the other things that
you just discussed.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
So like, tell me how I'm just supposed to pick myself
up and it's impossible, youcan't.
You can't, just you know.
And then going back to themental health conversation, one
of the things that is veryimportant to understand is that
mental health is physical health.
You cannot underestimate theeffects of stress on your.
I always say you cannotunderestimate the effects of
(24:14):
these three things stress,underhydration or being
dehydrated and sleep.
And tell me one individual inthis situation that is A not
stressed to the max becausethey're in survival mode every
day, fight or flight.
Right, they're in fight flight,freeze or fawn.
There's actually four of those.
We can get into that later ifyou want.
(24:35):
But, um, tell me, they're likemaking sure to drink all their
water when they can barelysurvive and put like matching
socks on and they're certainlynot sleeping so they're right
you know what I'm saying?
So, and then there's the fear.
Don't forget, fear is anemotional aspect, but it's's a
very, very real thing.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Of course it is.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
The offender threatens that individual with
any given outcome, I cannot tellyou.
First of all, one of the morecommon ones is I'll get your
kids taken away.
Let me just say for the record,it is not 1955.
Okay, right, like it is not,the courts know what they're
looking at thank god so right,we hope.
(25:20):
I'm not saying it's a perfectsystem.
It is far from a perfect system, but it's the one we have.
And I am telling you, don'tbelieve that.
Just don't believe it.
Just call us and talk to us.
I have a client in the shelterwhich we're gonna list on this.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
So we're gonna have to do two parts of this episode,
because I feel like it's gonna,it's gonna oh, maybe I don't
know yeah okay, because we havelike I don't know like five more
minutes.
Really but yeah, oh yeah, Iknow it went quick, wow, um, but
we're definitely gonna do apart two to this.
Oh, okay, um, so, but we willput your the number and all the
(25:54):
services and the information onthe bottom for everybody once
again to be able to.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You just call us, just talk it out, because
whatever they're threatening youwith, I guarantee you the
majority of it is not evenfeasible, it's not even a thing,
it's not even real, right, noteven real.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
But that's how it's layered, like you said, and this
is why people don't leavebecause of all these layers
financial, physical, mental lies.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
They minimize everything, so the offender
minimizes everything they do tothe victim.
So now the victim says, well,maybe, maybe it was me, maybe it
was me.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Well, they always think it's them.
They always do.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
They always think it's them and by the way, and
with that comes guilt and blame.
They blame themselves.
Don't forget the isolation part, where they're isolated.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
From friends, from family, because they've stopped
going out Right, they've stoppedtalking about it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
They've stopped whatever.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Which is the worst.
We discussed that last time.
Never give up your financialfreedom if you can't, if you can
right, if you can always have apiece of that.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
And let's also for not forget this, and this is a
very, very powerful thing hopethey, hope that offender will
change why?
Because that's what theoffender is feeding them, right,
they're like he or she isliterally feeding, because and
then they'll be good one day andthey'll be all nice.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I'm sorry, I love you .
I, whatever, I would never,I'll never do it again.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And then what happens is the next time it happens,
not if, but when it's.
And you say to that personagain thinking you're crazy,
Well, didn't we just talk aboutthis?
Well, no, this is a totallydifferent situation because of
this one piece of semantics orsomething like that they make
excuses, they make all kinds ofexcuses.
And then let me also point outthe normalization.
(27:41):
Okay, if somebody grows up inthis situation, or if somebody
has been, it's their norm.
It's their norm, it's theirbaseline.
It's what they go for, yeah wetalk about baseline and rape and
everything it's what theirstation?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
It's baseline, it's baseline.
It's baseline, it's what it'sthere, believe it or not.
It's their car.
It's there, or?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
how?
About what if you grew up in aphysically abusive home and the
person you're with is everythingbut so you're like well, it's
not like he hits me, mm.
Hmm, and that's their baseline.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Absolutely Like that.
Baseline matters, your baselinematters, and it doesn't matter
too, because there are plenty ofwomen that didn't have that
baseline and get sucked intothese relationships and end up.
So let's quickly recap, likethose categories that you told
us about, and then in part two,we'll deep dive into all of them
(28:35):
.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Well, this was which we can go a little bit more into
.
Part two, the emotionalbarriers.
So I sort of break it up into,and this is just my spiel.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
There's a million, but the way that I like because
I like to organize all my pointsRight so like the average
person can understand.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, so the average thing is.
The most common thing isthere's emotional barriers,
which there's thousands ormillions associated with.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
These are just the big categories there's financial
, Again, thousands or millions.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And then the physical safety and we are going to get
into in that aspect, we're goingto get into some scary stats
about what that physical safetylooks like.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Okay, and that's great.
Yeah, no, I love thisconversation and we're
definitely for our audience.
We're definitely going to do apart two and we're going to get
into a deep dive of each one andwe're going to continue on why
people don't leave and I lovehow we took this and we right
now it's perfect with the PDiddy thing because a lot of
(29:34):
people can relate to that.
A lot of people are watchingthis and hearing people report
on it and, like with Cassie, youcan relate.
The coercion was very easy forme as the average person and not
you who deals with this all day.
For me to relate oh that iscourt.
Oh, she went for the 92, butshe came back.
(29:54):
And why did she come back?
And because maybe some peoplethat are not in domestic
violence situations, like myself, it makes it easier for us to
also understand.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Absolutely, and I think that, as human beings too,
you try to say to yourself likeyou can't comprehend how a
female like that would be underthe control and coercion of
somebody else.
So in some ways it's almost asurvival mechanism.
I think where you're like, thatcan't be real.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Right, or I would never do that.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, I would never do that.
You know it's very hard.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
No, but we want people.
I'm hoping that people that arein the position that aren't
abusive relationships arelistening to this episode and at
least getting a little insightand we'll be able to call your
services and get help.
That's why we do this here onDating Daycare so that everybody
the people that are in it andout of it, you know can all kind
(30:47):
of relate and help other peoplethat you may know or direct
them to our podcast here.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
And we'll get into it more obviously at the end of
the second one.
But for argument's sake, ourhotline, 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, is 631-666-8833.
We are there, we believe you,and you are not alone.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, and we willbe doing a part two to this, and
we will be because there's somuch to talk about.
There's always so much to talkabout.
Thank you so much.
Thanks, melissa, you're welcome, and I can't wait for our
second part.
We will be back soon.
Welcome to Date and Daycare, where we help you
navigate through the jungle ofjerks.
And today I'm super excitedbecause we have Jennifer
Cappezza on, who we've hadbefore from Long Island.
Domestic help me out, jen Ally,against Domestic Violence.
There you go, and we lovehaving you on your back.
Island domestic Help me out,jen Ally, against domestic
violence.
There you go, and we lovehaving you on your back.
(00:29):
I'm so happy Jennifer contactedme and wanted to come back on.
And what are we going to bediscussing today?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
We are going to be discussing in detail.
Quote why don't they just leavePerfect so?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
women that are in different situations, whether
it's abusive, even non abusive,can kind of go into that.
Why don't they just leave Right?
We always say, oh, he's beatingyou, he's a drug addict, he's
this, he's that, he's such ahorrible, you don't just leave
Right.
So tell us, jen, why don't theyleave?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Right, so tell us, jen, be good to take a deep dive
.
So I'm going to do like a briefreview of the conversation of
what those relationships looklike.
I will refer to our previousepisode for a deeper dive,
obviously.
And then the barriers toleaving are really broken up
into um.
I mean, there's tons, but forthe sake of our conversation, is
(01:50):
the emotional barriers, thefinancial barriers and the
safety barriers three of sort ofthree areas that have the most
common um complaints orchallenges that we hear yeah
right exactly, exactly.
And you know one of the thingsthat I always say, to like a
quick note about content.
This can get really heavy.
(02:11):
We have to have theconversation.
I can't be delicate about it,Because if you're delicate about
it and you're dancing around itand you're vague, then you're
not telling the truth.
If you're not telling the truth,you can't be helpful.
You can't be helpful, right?
So, while I will be gentle, itis the truth, right.
So I sort of caution folks,because we are going to talk in
more detail about what thatreally looks like.
(02:32):
The experiences thatindividuals have men, women,
children, regardless because itis one in three women, the sort
of famous statistic, if you will, is that one in three women
experience some form of abuse intheir lifetime.
The stat for that is somewherearound one in seven men.
(02:52):
The stat is somewhere aroundthe same for the LGBTQIA
population.
It is higher for thetransgender population.
It is higher for the black andbrown population.
But one of the things that wealways like to remind folks is
that's what's reported.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Right, and that's what we know Right.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Exactly, a ton isn't reported and a ton isn't
reported and, frankly, that'sone of the barriers, right there
is that nobody knows what'sgoing on.
Right, they don't know what theresources are available to them
.
One of the reasons it's notreported, or one of the reasons
it's a challenge even afterreporting, is people don't
(03:35):
believe them.
They are not believed and it'sthe only crime that falls into
that category.
Like if I came in here and waschit-chatting with you and told
you my house got robbed lastnight, you, your first instinct
would not to be.
I don't really right what doyou mean?
are you sure you know like no,no, I'm really sure like you
(03:57):
know, I was there, you know, Iwas there, you know, and that
that's not that.
That's's the conversation.
I mean, we were unfortunatelyreminded of this with the P
Diddy.
Oh my God.
Verdict Okay, talk about peoplenot being believed.
There is video proof, right,video proof, and it's not even
(04:18):
like one of those grainy blackand white cameras from the 90s.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Like it is clear.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It is literally, literally clear in black and
white what happened and yet, andyet those women are not
believed.
Um, you know, this is not aboutpolitics, but say what you want
about the epstein situation,but we wouldn't need to see a
list, the list would not need tobe released, if we just
believed the women that havecome forward.
(04:44):
Correct.
So part of what we're going totalk about at the end is
changing community consciousnessrelated to this right.
But that is a huge, huge issueis that this crime is
underreported.
Much of this crime isn't even acrime, right, because it's not
illegal to call somebody namesand be mean to them.
(05:06):
Um, I don't mean to sound soflippant about it, but that's
you know what I mean.
Like that's, that's what it is,and the other part of it is that
, um, part of the reasonsthey're not believed is because
we still have a stereotype inour heads about what a DV victim
looks like, what a perpetratorlooks like, what DV looks like
(05:28):
right.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
And then I think also , like you said, the P Diddy
case is very you know, if youwant to say in vogue, right now.
I mean the fact that his defenselawyer was even able to go in
there after.
I think it was Cassie who saidthat she was in a, whatever they
(05:50):
called it, a freak off for.
I think she said 92 hours,something like that.
Yeah and oh well, you agreed,you agreed, you agreed.
Why didn't you leave?
Why didn't you leave?
Why didn't you leave?
Why didn't you leave?
So explain to us why Cassiedidn't leave.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, first of all, it's coercive control, and if
you Google coercive control,which they mentioned in the
trial, Yep, there is no suchthing as free will when that is
the case, if I decided that Idid not want to finish this
conversation, I could get up andleave.
Yes, cassie, couldn't do that.
There's also when you considerthe human trafficking components
(06:31):
of that case.
For human trafficking to exist,there has to be force, fraud or
coercion.
So, by definition, the crimeitself prevents somebody.
There's no free will there,right, there's no free will
there.
I don't have free will to leaveif you are holding X, anything
over my head, which is also, bythe way, elements of an abusive
relationship as well, but Cassiedid not have free will to leave
(06:53):
.
Also, we're all very familiar,even if it's sort of from a
novelty standpoint, the idea ofStockholm syndrome.
Right, you cannot, you'rebrainwashed, right.
It's frankly like being in acult, like for, effectively, in
a lot of ways, right Casting,and everybody sort of has a
better idea of what cults arenow, as a result of things like
Leah Remini's work inScientology and podcasts and all
(07:18):
that kind of stuff.
So like if, even if you can'treally comprehend what it is to
be in a domestic violencesituation or what it is to be in
a situation where you don'thave free will, think about what
cult members deal with and how,arguably, they're here free and
that's something that like evenum, oh, jonestown.
Like when you, when you uh,listen or watch the
(07:41):
documentaries on jonestown, andwhen the senator came in and the
guy's like and he, he's likelook, everybody can leave, right
.
And they're all like yeah, wecan totally leave, we're totally
happy, yeah we're great, andwe're great as they're slipping
paper as they're slipping notesto the senator.
somebody helped me, or it said,get us out of here, or something
like that, it said you know, soforced fraud and coercion exist
, has to exist for humantrafficking.
(08:02):
Unless the victim is under theage of 18, then all bets are off
that's irrelevant, becausethat's a child, right they're a
minor um.
So, by definition, either I'mcommitting fraud against you,
right?
I am um forcing you to do this,like it's in the statute.
I'm forcing you to do this, orI am coercing you in some way.
(08:22):
Okay, so tell me where the freewill comes, and tell me where
she could have left.
There is none no, no, not tomention the power differential
between somebody like rightexactly.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
She walked down the hallway.
He beat the living shit out ofher.
She tried to get away and shetried to right.
Oh, by the way down the hallway.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh, that's right.
She tried to leave right, likeif that isn't the perfect sort
of visual example of.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
But then they say to play devil's advocate, they say
she didn't live with him, shewent back to her house.
She got out of that, but thenshe went to go see him again,
like she went back, but did she?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Here's again, though.
Where's the free will?
Where did she go willingly?
You don't know the force, fraudor coercion that brought her
back there.
You don't know what he hadhanging over her head, right?
You don't know anything aboutit?
Yes, you don't know anythingabout it.
Google coercive control.
Also, there is an unbelievableleader in the field that really
(09:15):
does a lot of outreach andeducation related to that phrase
and what that really looks likeLaura Richards.
She is, or she was, formerly onthe podcast.
Yeah um real crime profile.
Okay, um with the creator,producer of criminal minds, the
guy that aaron hotchner's um umcharacter on criminal minds is
(09:38):
based off of, and they go intodetail describing that yeah,
she's formerly of like london.
Uh, I forget what they call thelike, the london equivalent of
like the fbi and stuff like thatshe's like national law
enforcement over there andfounded like the paladin
national stalking center.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
She's amazing, amazing.
Well, so is that up?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
yeah, so is um jim clemente, like he's amazing as
well.
But laura richards, inparticular, is she will.
I couldn't do.
I couldn't do her justice if Iattempted to explain coercive
control the way that she does.
So if you google laura richardsand or coercive control, she
also like I mean, she's amazing,she's amazing.
She's like a superhero so um,and you know one of the things
(10:17):
they talk about on that podcast.
One of the reasons why a lot oftimes folks aren't believed
this is a perfect example um isthat they have a stereotype well
sean combs like he's a giant inhis field.
He also, by the way, up untilrecently, up until all of this
um came to light had a prettydecent reputation.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Well to yeah, to us as the people out of hollywood,
but in hollywood.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Supposedly they knew what a piece of shit well, they
know, they always know, theyknow they knew about cosby, they
knew about all of them, like,like.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Harvey Weinstein, a lot of people for you.
We didn't know as the public.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
But tell me how that trial was not tried in the court
of public opinion first, please, because it's who you know,
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That's why what judge , what lawyer and who you know.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And it's not just because he's famous and had a
somewhat decent I mean, let'sface it, the man is unbelievably
talented.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
But that doesn't give you the right to do whatever
you want to do.
No, but that's the privilege.
That's where the privilegecomes from.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And that's where the power differentiates.
And you said well, he can't bean offender, he is X, violence,
abuse, human trafficking,coercive control, any of that
force, fraud or coercion.
It is an indiscriminatepredator.
(11:47):
It is like a cancer.
It knows no age, no race, nosocioeconomic background.
It doesn't care where you live,how you dress, what car is in
your driveway, where, if you goto church on sundays.
So that is one of the sort ofdeck clearing thing that like
out on the table that I like toput out there, yep.
Um, the other thing to keep inmind is that, while one in three
, one in seven like that's alittle bit of a vague number um,
(12:09):
every minute, 24 people people,not just women, not just
whatever people are victims ofsome form of abuse.
Every minute, 24 people.
So like by the end of thisconversation, over 2 000 people
right will be a victim of somesort of abuse.
right, that's 12 millionamericans each year and 3.5
(12:30):
billion children, and again,these are the reported cases.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Right, this is what we know, and there's a ton of
unreported.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
So when you consider that?
So let's first look at whenthey do try to leave.
Let's look at that for a second.
Okay, the stats show that ittakes, on average, seven to nine
times of attempts to leave anabusive relationship before you
leave for good.
I think that's BS.
I'll tell you why Again that isdocumented Right.
(13:02):
That's documented, that'sassuming, that's when you're
looking at those kinds of stats.
That's like the police came tothe house, that's like they
called our hotline Right.
So what I suggest or what Ithink and this is, by the way, I
work with clients every day.
I talk to the women in ourshelter.
We have had women in ourshelter years apart.
(13:24):
Where they come in, they goback and then a year or two
years later we had one client.
I think I told her story.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
And the last time I was here that was in our shelter
25 years apart because she wentback to her husband and then
she came back to us.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, they don't change ladies, right side fun
fact, fun fact.
But like that too was.
So you could say that clienttried twice to leave.
No, uh right, no way.
Yeah, that is not what actuallyhappened, because these stats
do not take into account what isprobably 10 times a day.
They think about it, oh yeah,they contemplate it.
They don't underestimate whatis likely to be hundreds or even
(14:03):
thousands of times that thatindividual leaves the
relationship in their head, intheir head, thinks about it,
makes plans, waxes poeticallyabout what it would be like on
the other side and and hits,even mentally or emotionally,
hits, barrier after barrierafter barrier, and stops right
(14:27):
do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And then they let time go by and then try again.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah.
So consider that it's not justwhat you see on the surface,
it's not just that client thatcame to us twice in 25 years.
Don't tell me that in that 25years she didn't consider
hundreds and thousands of timesor made smaller efforts to leave
, or maybe even said to herhusband hey, if X and Y doesn't
(14:51):
happen, I'm going to leave, andthen X and Y obviously.
Hey, if x and y doesn't happen,I'm gonna leave, and then x and
y obviously didn't happen andshe went out for the day
shopping and then came home likedo you know what I'm saying?
like that is that's an attemptto leave, and just for
argument's sake.
Um, intimate partner violenceis the blanket term.
There's other terms familyviolence, relationship abuse, um
, domestic violence, all of thatstuff, teen dating violence.
(15:13):
Ultimately, that relates toprogramming right at the end of
the day.
Intimate partner violencebecause you don't have to be
married, you don't have to be aheterosexual, uh, couple, you
don't have to be cisgender,heteronormative or anything.
You don't have to be married.
You don't even have to beliving together, which goes back
to the conversation about thePDD case, right, where she
(15:35):
wasn't living there.
She wasn't even living there.
It doesn't matter, becauseforced fraud, coercion, abuse
can happen, right.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I mean far apart, you don't even know.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Like we have a client who the offender has been in
jail for years and she stillgets somehow text messages or
emails or things from him fromjail, like you know, and he's
like upstate, you know what Imean.
Um, also, the phrase victimversus survivor for argument's
sake, um, we sort of use theterm victim when we're talking
(16:05):
about somebody who's currentlyin the situation and then
survivor once they've left.
Also just for the record,victim is like a law enforcement
term.
So because somebody has to bethe victim of the crime and
somebody has to be theperpetrator or whatever.
So that's also why you hearthose so a lot of times.
You hear those uh phrases usedinterchangeably, um, um.
(16:26):
It's ultimately just for thepurposes of these conversations.
We kind of say victim, as insomebody who's currently
experiencing it versus asurvivor who has left and what
have you right?
Also, you'll hear me say theword client a lot, because those
that receive our services werefer to as clients, right.
(16:47):
And what is intimate partnerviolence?
It is a pattern of coercivebehavior again, pattern,
coercive course of the key wordhere in a relationship that's
used by one person to gain ormaintain power and control over
the other.
I go deep, dive into that, umin our previous episode, um, but
(17:07):
ultimately what happens is Ialways say, like a normal person
says oh, I'm sorry, but Iwanted to X or I wanted to Y,
and the other person might say,oh, I'm sorry too.
And what have you?
An abuser says I'm sorry, butyou Right, I'm sorry.
But that I'm sorry, but work,I'm sorry, but all of the things
(17:27):
that have nothing to do with me, Right, things that have
nothing to do with me, right.
And for argument's sake again, Igo deeper into this in our
previous episode is that there'sactually six different forms of
abuse from a behavioral healthstandpoint not necessarily
legally, but from a behavioralhealth standpoint and from a
trauma infliction standpoint.
Obviously, everybody's familiarwith physical.
We have the verbal aspect,which is the name calling.
(17:50):
The emotional aspect, which isthe manipulation, the
gaslighting and such sexualassault, which is any intimate
contact without your consent.
Financial, which we're going togo even deeper into in this
conversation.
And, of course, cyber, meaningthey use anything related to
cell phone.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
What have you?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
right related to cell phone.
What have you right?
So, of the barriers, there'slike three categories that I
said we're going to discussEmotional, financial and the
safety barriers, right?
Okay, so, and the other partabout that is the
intersectionality Because of thesix different forms of abuse.
It's not like In real life, solike in my PowerPoint.
(18:33):
In my PowerPoint it's got thisneat graphic Like oh, look the
little circles, and it's neatlyorganized.
Thank you, microsoft PowerPoint.
How can we say it?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
to the audience that, like you know that, they'll
just understand.
Like these are, you know themainstream reasons Like so
coercion, people don't leavebecause of that Abuse.
You know hitting, pulling youback down the hall where you try
to leave.
That's physical, it's allabusive Right.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So let's look at the intersectionality of how those
categories of abuse layer.
Like it becomes layers.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Right, they do all of that.
They do all of it in manydifferent ways, which makes it
ten times worse.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Exactly so, like, for example, let's say, I get my
hands on your phone, right, thisis your phone.
And I get my hands on it andsay this is the only connection
you have to your family, and youdid something that pissed me
off, right.
And now we're arguing and I'mholding it above my head and I'm
(19:39):
threatening to break it and I'mtelling you that if you don't x
, y, whatever, or say you'resorry or tell me you'll never do
it again, I am going to destroythis phone.
And what, if you like hereyou're a podcaster Is your phone
not an access Right.
You do take right.
It is a part of your financialincome or it facilitates part of
(20:05):
your financial income.
Right and now, this is afinancial aspect.
Also, if you don't have accessto the family finances, you're
not going to be able to replacethis Right you can't get a new
phone once you break it, and I'mtelling you that if you don't
make it right or if you don't bewilling to do whatever, it is,
I'm going to take it.
I'm going to take it, I'm goingto break it.
Now, what did I do?
(20:25):
I threatened physical propertyBecause, by the way, what I'm
really doing Is manipulation.
What I'm doing is saying, if I'mwilling to do this to your
phone, I'm willing to do it toyou.
Also, if I do actually breakthis phone or like we hear a lot
of stories about, like chairsbeing thrown against walls or
holes being punched in walls,what they're actually saying is
(20:45):
you're next, right.
So I've threatened youfinancially.
Right, because I threatened youfinancially because that's
access.
I have threatened youemotionally because that's
access to your family or friends, and I'm sure I'm hailing
verbal insults, right.
And what did I do?
I never raised a hand to youand I never raised my voice,
(21:08):
right?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
And all of that is layered.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So one of the things that you have to understand that
it's not just these six sort ofneat little categories.
It's yelling, it's bruises,it's blame, it's loneliness,
it's the fear of starting overDepression.
Let's not forget, and let usnot underestimate the physical
implications of it all in thesense of the mental health
(21:34):
Right't has the plummet helloright, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Like a prisoner in your own home.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
You are right, you are right and and, and not least
of which, potentially, isbecause I, as the offender, have
convinced you that you are nogood right.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
No one's gonna want you.
Nobody's gonna survive withoutme.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I put up with you.
I do you a favor, right, byputting up with you.
Why can't you just accept mefor who I am?
Right, you should accept me forwho I am.
You'll never get better theshame, the humiliation, the
gaslighting, I think I said.
And then there's more dangerousthings like stalking.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Right and the physical threats right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So it is all layered on top of each other and it's
all abuse.
Of course, and it's all traumaand the layers is what makes it
so complicated.
So let's look at emotionalbarriers, not least of which is
so we're going to go through abunch of them, not least of
which is the gaslighting.
(22:34):
Right, this is a term that getsthrown around a lot, but I want
to be real clear about what itreally is and what the clinical
definition is.
It will make you question yourown reality, right?
So, like you hear people say, Icouldn't believe my eyes.
Well, you literally cannotbelieve your own eyes or ears or
(22:57):
logic or anything.
You think you are crazy.
You had told a fantastic storywhen we were together last about
how your former partner keptsetting off the alarm right in
the house and then, by the endof the night, had you convinced
that you were the problembecause you had a problem with
him setting the alarm.
He was just trying to fix it,right?
What do you mean?
Just trying to fix it?
(23:17):
What do you mean Just?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
trying to fix it.
Whatever, why can't you keepthese kids?
The babies kept waking up.
They kept screaming.
We had school the next day.
Everybody was exhausted.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
In the meantime, he had you convinced it was your
problem and your fault, becauseyou couldn't keep the kids calm
Screamed and yelled.
And all he was fix the thingright, right, the shake, and
that goes into shame.
They will shame you into anygiven thing.
They'll.
They'll shame you aboutanything, right so like you
can't even look yourself in themirror, do?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
you know what I mean.
Right, you get to that point.
Yeah, it's layered.
And then that, you know, comesfrom all the other things that
you just discussed.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
So like, tell me how I'm just supposed to pick myself
up and it's impossible, youcan't.
You can't, just you know.
And then going back to themental health conversation, one
of the things that is veryimportant to understand is that
mental health is physical health.
You cannot underestimate theeffects of stress on your.
I always say you cannotunderestimate the effects of
(24:14):
these three things stress,underhydration or being
dehydrated and sleep.
And tell me one individual inthis situation that is A not
stressed to the max becausethey're in survival mode every
day, fight or flight.
Right, they're in fight flight,freeze or fawn.
There's actually four of those.
We can get into that later ifyou want.
(24:35):
But, um, tell me, they're likemaking sure to drink all their
water when they can barelysurvive and put like matching
socks on and they're certainlynot sleeping so they're right
you know what I'm saying?
So, and then there's the fear.
Don't forget, fear is anemotional aspect, but it's's a
very, very real thing.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Of course it is.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
The offender threatens that individual with
any given outcome, I cannot tellyou.
First of all, one of the morecommon ones is I'll get your
kids taken away.
Let me just say for the record,it is not 1955.
Okay, right, like it is not,the courts know what they're
looking at thank god so right,we hope.
(25:20):
I'm not saying it's a perfectsystem.
It is far from a perfect system, but it's the one we have.
And I am telling you, don'tbelieve that.
Just don't believe it.
Just call us and talk to us.
I have a client in the shelterwhich we're gonna list on this.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
So we're gonna have to do two parts of this episode,
because I feel like it's gonna,it's gonna oh, maybe I don't
know yeah okay, because we havelike I don't know like five more
minutes.
Really but yeah, oh yeah, Iknow it went quick, wow, um, but
we're definitely gonna do apart two to this.
Oh, okay, um, so, but we willput your the number and all the
(25:54):
services and the information onthe bottom for everybody once
again to be able to.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You just call us, just talk it out, because
whatever they're threatening youwith, I guarantee you the
majority of it is not evenfeasible, it's not even a thing,
it's not even real, right, noteven real.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
But that's how it's layered, like you said, and this
is why people don't leavebecause of all these layers
financial, physical, mental lies.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
They minimize everything, so the offender
minimizes everything they do tothe victim.
So now the victim says, well,maybe, maybe it was me, maybe it
was me.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Well, they always think it's them.
They always do.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
They always think it's them and by the way, and
with that comes guilt and blame.
They blame themselves.
Don't forget the isolation part, where they're isolated.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
From friends, from family, because they've stopped
going out Right, they've stoppedtalking about it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
They've stopped whatever.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Which is the worst.
We discussed that last time.
Never give up your financialfreedom if you can't, if you can
right, if you can always have apiece of that.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
And let's also for not forget this, and this is a
very, very powerful thing hopethey, hope that offender will
change why?
Because that's what theoffender is feeding them, right,
they're like he or she isliterally feeding, because and
then they'll be good one day andthey'll be all nice.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I'm sorry, I love you .
I, whatever, I would never,I'll never do it again.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And then what happens is the next time it happens,
not if, but when it's.
And you say to that personagain thinking you're crazy,
Well, didn't we just talk aboutthis?
Well, no, this is a totallydifferent situation because of
this one piece of semantics orsomething like that they make
excuses, they make all kinds ofexcuses.
And then let me also point outthe normalization.
(27:41):
Okay, if somebody grows up inthis situation, or if somebody
has been, it's their norm.
It's their norm, it's theirbaseline.
It's what they go for, yeah wetalk about baseline and rape and
everything it's what theirstation?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
It's baseline, it's baseline.
It's baseline, it's what it'sthere, believe it or not.
It's their car.
It's there, or?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
how?
About what if you grew up in aphysically abusive home and the
person you're with is everythingbut so you're like well, it's
not like he hits me, mm.
Hmm, and that's their baseline.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Absolutely Like that.
Baseline matters, your baselinematters, and it doesn't matter
too, because there are plenty ofwomen that didn't have that
baseline and get sucked intothese relationships and end up.
So let's quickly recap, likethose categories that you told
us about, and then in part two,we'll deep dive into all of them
(28:35):
.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Well, this was which we can go a little bit more into
.
Part two, the emotionalbarriers.
So I sort of break it up into,and this is just my spiel.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
There's a million, but the way that I like because
I like to organize all my pointsRight so like the average
person can understand.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, so the average thing is.
The most common thing isthere's emotional barriers,
which there's thousands ormillions associated with.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
These are just the big categories there's financial
, Again, thousands or millions.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And then the physical safety and we are going to get
into in that aspect, we're goingto get into some scary stats
about what that physical safetylooks like.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Okay, and that's great.
Yeah, no, I love thisconversation and we're
definitely for our audience.
We're definitely going to do apart two and we're going to get
into a deep dive of each one andwe're going to continue on why
people don't leave and I lovehow we took this and we right
now it's perfect with the PDiddy thing because a lot of
(29:34):
people can relate to that.
A lot of people are watchingthis and hearing people report
on it and, like with Cassie, youcan relate.
The coercion was very easy forme as the average person and not
you who deals with this all day.
For me to relate oh that iscourt.
Oh, she went for the 92, butshe came back.
(29:54):
And why did she come back?
And because maybe some peoplethat are not in domestic
violence situations, like myself, it makes it easier for us to
also understand.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Absolutely, and I think that, as human beings too,
you try to say to yourself likeyou can't comprehend how a
female like that would be underthe control and coercion of
somebody else.
So in some ways it's almost asurvival mechanism.
I think where you're like, thatcan't be real.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Right, or I would never do that.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, I would never do that.
You know it's very hard.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
No, but we want people.
I'm hoping that people that arein the position that aren't
abusive relationships arelistening to this episode and at
least getting a little insightand we'll be able to call your
services and get help.
That's why we do this here onDating Daycare so that everybody
the people that are in it andout of it, you know can all kind
(30:47):
of relate and help other peoplethat you may know or direct
them to our podcast here.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
And we'll get into it more obviously at the end of
the second one.
But for argument's sake, ourhotline, 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, is 631-666-8833.
We are there, we believe you,and you are not alone.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, and we willbe doing a part two to this, and
we will be because there's somuch to talk about.
There's always so much to talkabout.
Thank you so much.
Thanks, melissa, you're welcome, and I can't wait for our
second part.
We will be back soon.
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