Cheekbones and Demons: Christopher Jones Part 1

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney (00:00):
Hello, my fame-adjacent not-yet-dead fam,
it's Courtney here and I wantedto enter into the following
episode with a bit of a triggerwarning.
We will be discussing instancesof rape and domestic violence
and I want you to be awarebefore you proceed.
Thanks so much.

Marissa (00:37):
Hello and welcome to Dead and Kind of Famous, where
we dig into the life stories ofdead folks who enjoyed a touch
or two of fame in their time.

Courtney (00:48):
And now reside permanently in the Hollywood
Forever Cemetery.

Marissa (00:51):
Hi, I'm Marissa Rivera and I know that the hike up to
Runyon Canyon is not worth it.

Courtney (01:02):
And other than that and I know how to give a cat an
enema and also everything aboutwhat we're going to talk about
today Ew, I was taking a sip ofmy beverage while you said that
too, so perfect, okay, great,okay great.
Yay, Okay.

Marissa (01:21):
I'm so excited about this episode.
So, for those of you who don'tknow which will be probably all
of you, because this is episodetwo, so I don't know about
anything that Courtney, I don'tknow who she's going to bring to
the table.
I don't know anything about it.
All I know is that this episodeis going to be a two, probably
three parter.

Courtney (01:43):
Yeah, we're going to have to see.

Marissa (01:44):
We're going to see, but I'm excited because it sounds
juicy.

Courtney (01:50):
It's juicy, it's salacious, it's, I would say,
angering at times.
Okay, okay, controversial.
It's controversial.
Can you turn this so that I cansee your face?
I swear, right now Marissa islike in a sound cage and all I
can see your face?
I swear, right now Marissa islike in a sound cage and all I
can see is like the side of herhead and her hair.
Yeah, we have a funny recordingset up, but it's actually it's

(02:12):
great, it's great.
Okay hold on, let me adjust.
Let me adjust, okay.
I just know that I'll feel likeI'm talking.
Okay.
All right, so yes, so today, I'mjust going to get right into it
.
Go ahead, dive in.
Today we are talking aboutChristopher Jones.
Okay, christopher Jones, very,I don't know, not seeming like a

(02:36):
big, weighty name.
It's no Baron von Frankenstein,I know I mean how could you?

Marissa (02:43):
You can't.
Not everyone can be a baron.

Courtney (02:45):
Not everyone can be a baron.
However, christopher Jones, hisgrave is close to the barons,
so if you're visiting the baron,you can visit Christopher Jones
at the same time.
But we are talking aboutChristopher Jones and I want to
take a peek at his grave first,so I'm going to have you take a
look at this here First lookFirst, looks All right.

(03:06):
So that's the grave.

Marissa (03:08):
Says Christopher Jones in parentheses, right below
William Franklin Jones, 1941 to2014.
And there is a picture of avery attractive man.
I must say.
He's got great bone structure.

(03:29):
It's kind of like it's not aheadshot, but it looks like a
still from a film.
And then the inscription saysAlways in our hearts.
So Christopher Jones.

Courtney (03:46):
Yeah, let's talk about his obit.
Let's talk about the marissarivera obit of christopher jones
christopher jones is was jesus.

Marissa (04:00):
Sorry, sorry, not strong.
Christopher Jones was born in1941 to two proud parents in
Ohio on a farm, a dairy farmthat had been in the family for
generations.
Bucking the standard of workingfor the family farm, he decided

(04:26):
to follow his dreams and runaway to Hollywood at the tender
age of 16.
Where he, for all intents andpurposes, made it.
I mean, he worked, he was onscreen, he worked, he was on
screen.
He started behind the scenes,you know, trying to be on sets

(04:50):
in any way that he could.
But he was just so attractivethat his star power, his
on-screen ability, could not bedenied.
And a producer spotted him fromafar and the rest was history.
Not really an A-list star, butworking all of his years.

(05:11):
All the same.
He loved the Hollywoodnightlife and was a womanizer.
I just couldn't see it in hischeekbones.
You don't have cheekbones likethat and stay faithful to one
woman, no they cut glass andthey cut hard, that's right.

(05:32):
So, he got married.
He did because that was theconvention, but never stayed
faithful to his wife.
So his marriage fell apart.
This is all in the obit, by theway, all the T's in this obit.
So his marriage fell apart andthen he lived the rest of his

(05:58):
days as a consummate bachelorand absentee father and he died.
I don't know what is the mathhere 2014 minus 20.
72.

Courtney (06:16):
He was 72 when he died .

Marissa (06:17):
Okay, great, let's cut that out, because people are
just going to make fun of mymath skills.
Whatever, I only know thatbecause I've been researching it
.

Courtney (06:24):
Okay, let's cut that out, because people are just
going to make fun of my mathskills.
Whatever, I only know thatbecause I've been researching it
.
Yeah, like I didn't do the math.
Let's be real.

Marissa (06:49):
So he died at the old age of 72, having lived a long,
fulfilling life.
His his real name is williamfranklin jones, but his stage
name, as his main name on hisgravestone, is christopher jones
, don't you forget it.

Courtney (06:55):
You're not going to after this episode I swear to
god um, you know, there's somuch you couldn't possibly know,
but I do feel like you know.
With what you were saying, acouple things stand out as being
particularly true.
I feel like, yes, his lookswere undeniable, undeniable,

(07:18):
undeniable, and I do think thatthey led to his star power, and
we'll talk about this that theyled to his star power, and we'll
talk about this.

Marissa (07:30):
But he looks on guys.
He looks like robert pattinsonwith interesting I see that he
looks like robert pattinson with, like even thicker hair, if you
can imagine yeah, he's got alot of hair.
He's got a great head of hairgreat head of hair and he, his,
okay so his.
The picture on his gravestoneis is almost a profile.
It's got a lot of hair, he'sgot a great head of hair, great
head of hair and his OK so his.
The picture on his gravestoneis is almost a profile.
It's like a little bit more thanthree quarter and his nose is

(07:53):
like a perfect, perfect, likeRoman nose.
It's crazy.

Courtney (08:00):
He's dreaming.

Marissa (08:01):
He's dreamy and he looks like he was carved from
stone Totally, and so we'll alsoget into this.

Courtney (08:09):
But it's interesting you say Robert Pattinson,
because the person thatChristopher Jones got compared
to the most was actually JamesDean.

Marissa (08:17):
Oh, I can see that.
Yeah, I can see that all thefucking time.

Courtney (08:20):
So he was.
He got it all the time.

Marissa (08:22):
He lived in James Dean's shadow, probably a bit, a
little bit a bit and it's.

Courtney (08:27):
It's actually like, yeah, it's a through line, it's
a major through line.
Oh, so OK, but I will.
Yeah, what else did you say?
That was OK.
You said he was from Ohio.
A dairy farm maybe, like noneof that.
It's not right, but it's alsonot far off.
Ok, give it to me.

(08:47):
So let's get into it all, right.
Christopher jones actualepitaph reads always in our
hearts, but at his funeral, thereverend giving his eulogy
mentioned that christopher hadwanted it to read.
Some things are better leftunsaid.
Oh yes, oh my gosh.
And after hearing about hislife, it might make sense why he

(09:10):
would say that Dun dun dun.

Marissa (09:14):
Dun dun dun.
Insert really cool sound effecthere.

Courtney (09:18):
Yes, Now, I said before that not, and I said well
, I said this in the previousepisode.
Ok, not all dead people arelikable.
Right, we had the Baron lasttime.
He was super, super likable.

Marissa (09:33):
Cheers, let's cheers to the Baron, cheers to the Baron.

Courtney (09:35):
Yes, not all people are likable.
Not all dead people are likable, and Christopher Jones is
coming back to haunt us withthat truth, back to haunt us
with that truth.
I could say that I think thattoday's subject is complicated,
because that's how men withunsavory quotes and truths about
them are often described, but Ithink that the most charitable
thing I can say is that he was aconfused, flawed human, as we

(09:57):
all are in some way, and mostlikely a bit mentally ill.

Marissa (10:02):
Which is wow, what a recipe for Hollywood.

Courtney (10:05):
Yeah, and I really do have to like put it out there in
the front just to have.
I want to have you know thesepeople are dead, that we're
talking about.
I want to have some empathy fortheir lives because they were
lived already.

Marissa (10:17):
And also like during that time period.
You know we talk about mentalhealth left, right and center.

Courtney (10:22):
Nowadays, it wasn't a thing.
Not a thing, not at all.
And if you did go to therapy,it was probably like weird and
like it was probably because youlike got committed.

Marissa (10:31):
And yeah, yeah.
Honestly, or you like were someHollywood weirdo who like had
someone like I don't know whowasn't like a licensed therapy,
Exactly Like a life coach or acult, Like a guru.

Courtney (10:40):
Yeah exactly, exactly so.
Anyway.
In fact, his story and many ofits offshoots are steeped in
improperly handled mentalillness, and I was talking to
Jesse, my husband, about it, andhe said something that I really
think is true.
He said that Jones lived hislife as a haunted man, and this

(11:02):
is because I need someone totalk to about all this research,
so I talked to him about it.
But many people-.

Marissa (11:07):
She can't talk to me.
I come into this blind.
She can't no.

Courtney (11:10):
Yeah, many people who knew him said as much, as he was
frequently described as havingdemons.
And if anyone who loves oradmires Christopher Jones is
listening, first of all, I'mflattered Also.
Just know that Thank you Firstof all.
Thank you, thank you forlistening.
Just know that I went to a lotof effort to seek out multiple
sources about him and that lenddifferent insights, even going

(11:32):
so far as to transcribephotographed images of his last
interview in his own words,since it was out of print find
him hard to like.
I find him fascinating and Ialso have empathy for him, and
he is no longer with us afterall, in his life is something
that is worth discussion formany of us, especially those of
us working in hollywood.
He is worth learning about, Ithink.

(11:52):
So, that being said, let'sstart at the top, shall we let's
?
Christopher jones was born injackson, tennessee, not ohio,
but not that far off mountainohio right, right, right smoky
mountains, ohio smoky mountains,ohio on august 18th 1941, a leo
um.

(12:13):
like you, yes, like me aswilliam franklin jones to his
father jg jones, a grocery storeclerk, and mother Robbie, who
was a talented visual artist whopassed her talents on to her
son.
Ooh, yes.

Marissa (12:29):
And being a female artist back then was next to
impossible, right?

Courtney (12:34):
I don't know if she made any money from it, but
everybody was like, oh, robbie'sgot talent and she got it, and
he got it from her.
Yes, got it.
As young Billy's father saidwe're calling Christopher Billy,
by the way, because that washis moniker as a child as young
Billy's father said, she'd lookat a scene or a face and then,
with a pencil or a crayon, shewould bring it to life again on

(12:54):
a sheet of paper.
It was a wonder to watch her,and even as a youngster, billy
Frank, billy Frank had the sameability.
Billy.

Marissa (13:01):
Frank.
Billy Frank had the sameability.
Billy Frank, billy Frank, mygoodness.
Well, billy Frank got hismama's talent, that's right.

Courtney (13:10):
And for the first three years of his life Billy
lived Billy Frank.
Billy Frank lived above BillyFrank.
Billy Frank For the first threeyears of his life Billy lived
above the grocery store hisfather worked at with his
parents and older brother Robert.
The first thread of mentalillness starts here, as Jones's

(13:32):
mother suffered from quotemental instability which is
vague and the vaguest.

Marissa (13:39):
Yes.

Courtney (13:40):
Wow, and was institutionalized in a state
hospital.
Okay yeah, when Christopher wasjust four years old, and she
died there in 1960.
Wow and was institutionalizedin a state hospital, okay, yeah,
yeah, when Christopher was justfour years old and she died
there in 1960.
Oh, no, okay, yeah so he wasonly 19 when she died.
When she died, Wait, so, wait.

Marissa (13:56):
So she was in there the entire time, from when he was
four until he was 19?
.

Courtney (14:00):
Until she died yeah.

Marissa (14:03):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, so he did not have aneasy childhood at all, no, so
his mother was institutionalizeduntil her death and she went in
from four years old and diedwhen he was 19.
She probably, you know,postpartum, I would think
Something it's really hard tosay.

Courtney (14:25):
It's like whatever you had back then, they weren't
gonna know what the fuck it wasyeah, they weren't gonna know.
Fuck.
And as chris told his ex-wifesusan strasburg, my mother died.
Wait, strasburg, yes, we'll getinto it.
Oh, this person's a bigger dealthan you think.
Oh, oh, my goodness, oh my gosh,quick thing Do you think that

(14:52):
you should have me read any ofhis quotes?
Yeah, yeah, you can read it.
Yeah, ok, so you read this then.
All right.
So, as Chris told his ex-wife,susan Strasberg, my mother died
of TB in a sanatorium.

Marissa (15:05):
They took her away from me when I was three.
My daddy put my brother and mein a boy's home in Memphis after
that because he couldn't takecare of us.
Oh my God, so dramatic.
I love it.
Dramatic reading.
Yes.

Courtney (15:29):
Well, that's fucking horrendous.
Yes, when asked later in aninterview with groupie
journalist pamela debar if hehated his father for putting him
in the boys home, he said thatno, it was his mother who he
hated why.
Pamela asked she was dead andChris replied that was a good
reason to hate her.

Marissa (15:45):
She shouldn't have died .
Well, there's a very strongstreak of misogyny.
Oh yeah, it starts right here.
It's not going to stop hereeither.
Victim blaming it's not goingto stop here at all.
Father remarried and had threemore children, and billy and his

(16:07):
brother only visited onholidays.

Courtney (16:08):
So they were really like, oh my god, he had a
replacement family, he totallyhad a replacement family,
absolutely, and like they gotall of his father's attention
and I mean, maybe it's becausehe just there was trauma for his
father of having lost his wifeand he just couldn't face that
at all you know what I mean andcouldn't wrap his head around
any reminder of her.
I think you know that canhappen, especially when people

(16:31):
don't go to therapy and don'thave any kind of mental
awareness themselves, I don'tknow, still unforgivable, oh
it's completely yeah, and he'ssomehow.

Marissa (16:39):
He hates his mother and that and not his father, which
sucks, that is fucked all of itis yeah.

Courtney (16:44):
So billy frank made a friend at boystown named robert
duke when the older boys forcedthem to fight each other for
their entertainment, like quotedogs or chickens wow, and
perhaps giving insight into theman he'd grow to become.
Duke said that being along-term resident of an
institution like Boys Town takesits toll when it comes to

(17:06):
trusting people and formingrelationships.

Marissa (17:08):
Of course, yes, like even if they were friends and
you're forced to fight someonelike that, that will irrevocably
change your relationship.
Of course, even if you'refriends to begin, oh God, ok,
the manipulation, the torture,it's just torture.

Courtney (17:26):
Yes, truly, and he said so.
Duke said you learn not to formrelationships with people, you
learn to be a loner.
You learn emotionally not tobecome too vulnerable to
relationships because they'retransient in most cases.
I think Billy Frank was typicalof that pattern.
Yeah, so the executive directorof Boys Town, joe Stockton,
took a shine to Billy and evenwrote him a recommendation for

(17:49):
art school.

Marissa (17:50):
This boy was no punk.
Stockholm is quoted to havesaid Don't ever believe anything
you might read that would makeyou think that he was bright and
he was good.
He should be living proof toother underprivileged boys that
you can become a fine man andfind your own place in life, no

(18:16):
matter what has happened.
If you, just if you just aimfor the heights.
Well, damn.
I feel like he soundsremarkably like our main
character, Billy Frank.

Courtney (18:34):
Yes.

Marissa (18:35):
And, by the way, Billy.

Courtney (18:36):
Frank probably did have an accent when he was
younger, so I love this.
I think later he did, Becauseof course everyone has to train
out of your accent.

Marissa (18:42):
I trained out of mine what was your accent.
I had a little like PuertoRican Miami girl accent for a
while, not by the time when Imoved here.
My theater teacher in highschool was like you can get more
work if you don't have anaccent, because Hollywood is
racist and, it's true,interesting.

Courtney (19:04):
Interesting.
Yeah Well, I have a Midwesternaccent on certain words like bag
and museum, which is more justa pronunciation, but anyway, I
digress.
So Joe Stockton was the firstto bring Billy's likeness to
James Dean to his attention.

(19:24):
From there on out, billy wasobsessed with Dean.
Stockton took him to see ascreening of Rebel Without a
Cause, and when Billy learned ofDean's death by car accident he
became even more fascinatedwith him.
And I think that's true of alot of people.
James Dean is a pretty mythicalfigure.
Yeah, and like Dean, billywanted to be a star.

Marissa (19:47):
I adored movies.
Everything was so clean anduncomplicated in the movies.
All those important people intheir big houses that was my
ideal.
I wanted to be a movie star.
The movies kept me going for along time.
I love those.

Courtney (20:06):
You're reminding me so much of, like the fake scene
that James Marsden does in JuryDuty.

Marissa (20:13):
Oh, my God.

Courtney (20:14):
God, where is God?
I was dead.
I was like this is incredible,it's perfect, it's so perfect,
okay.
Well, thank you incredible.

Marissa (20:26):
It's perfect, it's so perfect.
Okay, well, thank you for thankyou.
You're welcome.
Wow, what a compliment.

Courtney (20:31):
Yes, when he was 16, Billy left Boys Town and moved
in with his father and hisfather's new family in Jackson.

Marissa (20:39):
Babysitting.
Oh, I'm glad he let him in.

Courtney (20:41):
Yeah, I know right Babysitting his dad's new kiddos
.
Oh, I'm glad he let him in.
Yeah, I know right Babysittinghis dad's new kiddos.

Marissa (20:44):
Oh okay, he let him in to babysit.
Got it, yep Jesus.

Courtney (20:47):
He had a job and going to the movies in his free time.
Motivated by the dream ofleaving town, billy talked his
father into signing the papersthat would allow him to enlist
in the army, and then he joinedup for a total of two whole days
, wow.

Marissa (21:05):
Well, when you can't hack it, you can't hack it, nope
.

Courtney (21:09):
Billy, I swear we're right on the edge of referring
to him as Christopher.
By the way, was never one toenjoy being boxed in or told
what to do, and this would be atheme throughout his life.

Marissa (21:19):
Honestly same Yep.

Courtney (21:22):
We relate we relate so naturally, the military didn't
suit him, and so he bailed andwent AWOL according oh he just
oh, yeah, he just up and left.
He left damn yep according tohis ex-wife, susan Strasberg, um
.
He told her that of his time inthe army, I hated it.

Marissa (21:44):
They even told you when to take a leak.
One night I got thisoverwhelming urge to go to New
York, as if something weredrawing me there.
It was crazy, but I split thenext day.
Yep, he was out.

Courtney (21:58):
Jones said in his interview with Pamela DeBar that
he stole a car and drove to NewOrleans before making his way
to New York.

Marissa (22:04):
Pamela DeBar that he stole a car and drove to New
Orleans.
Before making his way to NewYork, he quit the army, snuck
out, went AWOL, stole a car,committed grand theft auto and
drove to where now?
New York.
Drove all the way to New York.
Yes, from Tennessee.
Where was he at this point?

Courtney (22:23):
He was in.
He stole a car and drove to NewOrleans and then made his way
to New York, but in the interim.
So yes, he was in Tennessee andthen in the interim he was.

Marissa (22:31):
So he went south to go north.

Courtney (22:34):
I think he didn't know where he was going.
He just wanted to like bounce,and then he went to Indiana
before going to New York.
So, you really kind of liketook a little road trip yeah, he
sure did.
I think he was thinking himselfhe was thinking it out.

Marissa (22:49):
I don't think he had it all planned well quote unquote
new york was just calling to him, so right he had to go visit
the rest of the country first,to make sure I mean, I don't
know, maybe he was just like.

Courtney (23:02):
I don't know, I have no idea, I cannot even fathom
his logic.
But he did go to FairmontIndiana, because why else?
That's where Jimmy Dean's homewas.
That's right.
And I feel like this decisiondefinitely speaks to his
obsession with Dean, because ifyou're driving from New Orleans
and heading to New York, indianais definitely not on the way.

Marissa (23:23):
Totally, completely out of the way, completely out on
the way, totally completely outof the way, completely out of
the way.
Only an obsession with JamesDean will bring you to Indiana.
To the sticks, because that'sthe sticks.

Courtney (23:35):
Yes, I am from Indiana and I will mention right now
that the state motto of Indianais the crossroads of America
because you are meant to drivethrough it if you have to.
Not?
There's no other reason forthat state.

(23:58):
It's just there to be driventhrough, or actually, I'm sorry.
There is another reason If youare living in Chicago and you
need to buy fireworks, that'salso a great reason to go to
indiana.
That's it, that's it, that'sall oh god um, okay, so we're
getting a lot of hate frompeople in indiana.
No, no, they know, they know, oh, they know, you know, you know

(24:20):
we all know, know, but anyway hemade the trip and surprised the
Dean family with his likenessto their son.
Whoa, whoa he wait he didn'tjust go to the town, he went up
and knocked on the door.
What the?
Fuck, yes, and I think thatpeople had done this before, but
in particular, him coming upand knocking on their door was

(24:42):
them being like?
Because let me show you reallyquick.

Marissa (24:45):
I need a side by side yeah.

Courtney (24:47):
OK, so this is.
You can see all the differentimages of Christopher Jones here
.
And then this is James Dean.

Marissa (24:59):
I'm not going to lie.
I don't see it I don't see it,it's pretty.

Courtney (25:04):
I mean, I feel like, Like let's just do this, this,
this the eyebrows, the eyesalone.
Okay.

Marissa (25:12):
James Dean has light hair, light eyes.
That's the same as ChristopherJones.
Okay, there I see it they havethe same nose and they both have
cheekbones.
They both have cheekbones.

Courtney (25:26):
And they both have very like prominent eyebrows and
kind of like bedroom eyes.

Marissa (25:31):
Yeah.

Courtney (25:33):
So it's pretty.

Marissa (25:34):
They're sexy white men.

Courtney (25:35):
They're sexy white men who are like pretty boy white
men, yeah, that's like a hugepart of this.

Marissa (25:40):
Pretty boys.
Yes.

Courtney (25:43):
Pretty boy white men.
Pretty boy white men.

Marissa (25:45):
Yes, his family disagrees with me and disagrees
with me and thought that he wasa good likeness.

Courtney (25:52):
Oh yeah, A lot of people did A lot of people did
Well, if the family says so.

Marissa (25:55):
I mean they're number one opinions.

Courtney (25:59):
Yes, they let him inside and showed him Dean's
room, which they'd leftuntouched.

Marissa (26:06):
His jeans were laid out like he was coming back.
Jones said.

Courtney (26:12):
Yeah.
So eventually Jones made it toNew York, where a friend advised
him to turn himself in forgoing AWOL, because they'd catch
up with him sooner or later.
That's true.
Yep.
So he did and spent six monthson Governor's Island after
stealing a car.

Marissa (26:27):
Six months.
Yeah, got off easy.

Courtney (26:30):
Yeah, practically kitty-cornered of the Statue of
Liberty.
So even though he was jailed,he had made it to New York and
it was here in New.
York and he had a view.
And he had a view I mean, youknow, at least in his mind,

(26:56):
where it.
And he had a view visualartists in the city, before
turning his attentions to acting, as we've discussed, he
inherited his mother's visualart talent.
So he took classes with actingteacher and director frank
corsero, who eventually cast himin his 1961 production of the
tennessee williams play thenight of the iguana with betty

(27:18):
davis, and later shelly winterswho replaced her.

Marissa (27:20):
So he like Wow yeah, he worked opposite some heavy
hitters.

Courtney (27:25):
Immediately.
Yeah, like it's not, he's just.
I think like there's all kindsof things you can say about his
acting ability and hisperformance and all of that, but
like he has a presence.

Marissa (27:38):
Ok, and that's the je ne sais quoi of it all, the
undeniability of yes, what somepeople have on screen.
I mean that is a real on screenand on stage.
That is a real, real thing,Exactly.
As for the role he had to playin the play, Shelley Winters

(27:58):
elaborated on it in her memoirand said, the two handsome
Mexican cabana boys were playedby Christopher Jones and Jimmy
Farentino Not Mexicans, butcertainly cabana boys.

Courtney (28:15):
I bought that woman's book just for that quote.
Honestly, I could use nothingelse in it, but that's what we
did, so keeping publishing alive.
That's right.
That's right, claiming that healways loved older women.
Jones said that he tried toquote jiggle Betty Davis but

(28:38):
wasn't sophisticated enough toget her attentions.
No, you weren't.

Marissa (28:43):
No, you were not.

Courtney (28:44):
You were a child, and that was betty davis, and she
was I can just, and you imagine,betty davis eyes just reading
him for filth in that momentfilth, just like the thousand
yard stare she must have givenhim.
She probably didn't sayanything.
She probably just turned on herheel and like flipped her hair
you know, like you child, um.

(29:06):
So he did, however, claim tohave had an affair with winters,
um, and said that what doeswinters say in her memoir?
Nothing, she doesn't say shitabout it.
All right, um.
But he said that she was allover him like a cheap suit.
And Winters made no suchmention of this affair in her
1989 memoir Shelley Roman,numeral II, which is such a good

(29:31):
and by good I mean terriblememoir name Shelley II, which,
because it's not the firstmemoir, it's the second.

Marissa (29:39):
It's the second memoir because you wanted more.
I know you did.

Courtney (29:42):
So Shelley II, the sequel um he's a cheap suit.

Marissa (29:48):
A cheap suit, yeah, wow , yeah.
No wonder she doesn't mentionhim in either of her.

Courtney (29:55):
It might just it just might not have happened.
Here's the thing.
You'll see that he's anunreliable narrator it's not we,
really most people.
I don't believe.
I don't believe him.
I don't believe him this whole.
I should say that now, like Iput this together with a lot of
research, that still doesn'tmean that all of it is true.
Honestly, some of it might notbe true because, it's just full.
The whole story of him is fullof unreliable narrators, full.

(30:24):
It's hard to pin down facts.
This is all just spilling thetea.
It's 100%.
It's a gossip that I spent along time researching as if it
was like, I don't know, likejournalism.

Marissa (30:33):
Nothing but hard stories here, courtney, that's
right.

Courtney (30:36):
But she was indeed an older woman for Christopher, as
she was cast as his mother inhis breakout lead role in the
rebellious 1960s musical wild inthe streets, which we will get
to, I assure you, because it isindeed wild and I watched it oh
shit yes, and you can watch ittoo so he could a timeout

(31:01):
christopher?

Marissa (31:01):
no, he could a timeout, christopher?
No.
He could.
I'm assuming he could drawpaint, he could act and he could
sing and dance.

Courtney (31:09):
No, he was dubbed, as was the rest of the band.

Marissa (31:17):
Okay, okay.

Courtney (31:19):
So it was during this early chapter of Christopher's
New York years that he met hisfuture wife, susan Strasberg,
daughter of famed method actingteacher, lee Strasberg, and an
actress in her own right.
Wow, susan was somewhat akin totheater royalty at the time,
and it was actually ShelleyWinters who introduced the two

(31:42):
when Christopher saw SusanShelley Winters Shelley Winters
who introduced the two.

Marissa (31:44):
When Christopher saw Susan, Shelly Winters, Shelly
Winters was there.
When Christopher saw Susan forthe first time, Winters claimed
that he said I'm gonna marry her, but according to Christopher,
what he actually said was I'mgonna fuck her.
Oh, so glad he set that recordstraight.

Courtney (32:02):
Exactly.
It's so good that he clarifiedthat Either way, he did end up
marrying her.
So that did actually happen,whether he said it or not, right
?
Susan began to take notice ofChristopher when he started
observing a few acting studioclasses at the actor's studio.
But he really caught herattention when he and some
fellow students of Frank Corsero, who was his acting teacher,

(32:24):
stopped by Susan's family beachhome on Fire Island.
In Susan's book Bittersweet shewrites there was a I can't be
doing a Southern accent.

Marissa (32:34):
She's not Southern.

Courtney (32:35):
She's not Southern, not at all she's like New York
Jewish, which I don't think herparents probably had more of
that kind of accent.

Marissa (32:41):
Right right, she was New York.
What's a New York?
I wasn't.
I wasn't in New York.
Well, no, there was athunderstorm, she's, theater
royalty she's.

Courtney (32:53):
if anyone has a theater voice, it's Susan.

Marissa (32:55):
Strasberg.
In Susan's book titledBittersweet, she writes there
was a thunderstorm that night.
It was terrifying, yetbeautiful.
She writes.
Instead, he began to do arhythmic erotic dance between
the flashes of lightning.
It was as if in the eye of thestorm, he became the storm

(33:16):
itself and like it, he appearedboth beautiful and dangerous.

Courtney (33:50):
She wanted to fuck him so much.
So, bad, like he was gyratingin a storm, in a summer storm.
I don't know why I feel soelectric.

Marissa (33:54):
There's so much the spark, the spark it's literally
happening, literal, metaphoricalyeah within me, without me.

Courtney (34:02):
Yeah, so she was like it's on yes, and I have a lot of
quotes from her book.
So get ready, you're gonna haveto read a lot on their first
date.
They rode the ferry, which lordas someone who originally went
to school in staten island andhad to ride that godforsaken
ferry.
That is not a romantic boatride, it is like a waterlogged

(34:23):
bus ride.

Marissa (34:24):
But I digress.
Susan says that on the ferry,christopher brushed against me
and I felt as if I had beentattooed.
That's hot.
Oh, branded, that's really.
She like felt that the tinglytingles down yonder.

Courtney (34:43):
And, honestly, the way that she writes about the start
of their relationship is so hotand well-written so we're just
going to have Marissa read that,because I had to include it.
I just feel like, for all thethings we're going to hear about
Christopher, you also have toknow what draws people to him,
especially people who havefallen in love with him.
What draws people to him,especially people who have

(35:04):
fallen in love with him.

Marissa (35:04):
So yeah, later that afternoon the two of us walked
from the Bowery uptown to my84th Street apartment.
After 20 blocks we were holdinghands he temporarily as shy or
as cautious as I was.
After four miles we were arm inarm and by 81st Street my head
was against his shoulder.
I looked at Christopher's clear, clean profile.

(35:26):
We were arm in arm and by 81stStreet my head was against his
shoulder.

Courtney (35:29):
He does have a very good profile.
It's an excellent asestablished.

Marissa (35:30):
Yes, excellent profile.
The setting sun filteringthrough the skyscrapers chiseled
his high Indian cheekbones andI fucking knew it.
Good God, cheekbones.
Yes, sorry If Shelley, thisisn't Shelley Winters.
If Susan, if Susan says itIndian cheekbones.

Courtney (35:55):
I don't know what that means.
I don't?

Marissa (35:56):
I think that's slightly racist.

Courtney (35:58):
Probably, unless she thinks like Well, I guess she's
probably saying I think what shemeans is I'm guessing, I'm
guessing what she means isNative American Right, and that
it's like, because there'sdefinitely some cheekbones, yeah
, so that's probably what shemeans.

Marissa (36:15):
I looked at Christopher's clear, clean
profile.
The setting sun filteringthrough the skyscrapers chiseled
his high Indian cheekbones andoutlined in light the straight
lines of his nose, the sensuousthrust of his lower lip.
He's so beautiful, I thought,susan, I admonished myself.

(36:37):
You don't want to wake up inthe morning with someone who's
prettier than you.

Courtney (36:42):
But that's exactly what she did.
That's exactly what she did.
She definitely woke up withsomeone who's prettier than you,
but that's exactly what she did.
That's exactly what she did.
She definitely woke up withsomeone who's pretty and
continued to do so.
But maybe it was the fact thathe spilled about his AWOL,
prison time and traumaticchildhood on that fateful walk.

Marissa (36:54):
Oh he vulnerability bombed her oh 100 percent.

Courtney (36:57):
Or perhaps it was the way he fatefully walked with
such star power.
Oh my God, this is.
This is so.
It's like reading a romancenovel.

Marissa (37:06):
I know, goodness gracious.
As he was talking, susan said Inoticed the people we were
passing on the street werereacting to him almost the same
way they would have a movie star.
They stared at him or diddouble takes.
He walked with that amblingsouthern gait, a little defiant
pelvis thrust forward, exudingenergy, Sexual and sexual Big

(37:32):
dick energy when you walk withyour pelvis.

Courtney (37:36):
I mean, that's what that is, that's a cowboy walk.
That's right.

Marissa (37:40):
A cowboy walk with Indian cheekbones, my goodness.

Courtney (37:44):
Yeah, well, it was what.

Marissa (37:46):
What a powerful combo.
We reached my apartment andwhen he walked through the door,
an unspoken commitment had beenmade the next two weeks we
became inseparable, caught inthe glow of our romance, hardly
leaving the apartment Hot.
Caught in the glow of ourromance, hardly leaving the
apartment.
That, oh, those early days whenyou just get out of bed to take

(38:13):
a shit and eat something.

Courtney (38:16):
So I went hard on all that introduction stuff, because
that's the fun part of therelationship you have to
understand what pulled themtogether.

Marissa (38:23):
Yeah, sexual magnetism.

Courtney (38:25):
Yes, but there's a lot .
That's not fun.
So at first they were hot andheavy, lovey-dovey, love birds
and then realities, yeah.
But things.
Things started to get weird, um, as christopher's paranoia and
violent nature came more andmore to the surface, or at least
when susan began to notice it,because it seems to me like that

(38:50):
was there from day one, likewhen they were having that
romantic stroll where she wasadmiring the thrust of his
pelvis.

Marissa (38:59):
Susan had said to him I suspect you're much more of a
rebel than I am, because yeah,go ahead.

Courtney (39:07):
You read Marissa.
Marissa doesn't know anything,but she's reading what I know.

Marissa (39:12):
Yeah, I suspect you're much more of a rebel than I am,
because she had a thing for badboys and she was flirting.
That's right.
And instead of being like wellfunny, you should say that
because I do bear a strongresemblance to the greatest
rebel of them all, james dean.
What christopher said was whotold you let me get, wait, hold

(39:34):
on, I gotta get back into.
Who told you that.
Has some bastard been tellingyou stories about me?
Don't believe anything.
You've heard.
These new york intellectualstry to tear down anyone that
can't control.
They know I see through alltheir bullshit.

Courtney (39:49):
their mothers are out to get me I think it's like
these mothers are out to get me.
The mothers are out to get me,the mothers, yeah these mothers
are the mothers like the the.
I think these mothers, I thinkit's these mothers like these
new york intellectual thesemothers.

Marissa (40:06):
Yeah, I think it's like motherfuckers not actual
mothers, because he hates hismother, that's what I was
thinking.

Courtney (40:13):
It's like a intellectual or like a freudian
slip of some kind, but like he,I think he's trying to say
motherfuckers.

Marissa (40:21):
But like she quotes him as saying the mothers yeah, so
OK, so OK.
So, she quotes him as sayingmothers a lot, a lot.

Courtney (40:30):
Yeah, and speaking of the mother he hated, I need to
mention that Christopher toldSusan that after he found out
his mother had died, he couldbarely sleep and would only
sleep sitting up watching TV.
And one of those sleeplessnights the Cherry Orchard came
on, in which Susan had starred,and he said she bore as Anya.

Marissa (40:49):
Do we know?
I don't know.

Courtney (40:51):
I think she was a younger character.
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, and hesaid she bore an uncanny
resemblance to his mother.

Marissa (40:57):
I couldn't believe it.
Susan quotes him as saying Ihad this picture of my mother
when she was smiling into acamera and, man, it was weird.
Her face superimposed itselfover yours.
It was the same face.
You looked just like her.
She was small and dark, likeyou.

Courtney (41:20):
Edible.

Marissa (41:21):
It's edible.
It's edible and gross.
Yeah, so he had a.

Courtney (41:28):
He had a vision of his mom's face super imposed on his
future wife's face before heknew her, um, but before this is
all before he knew.
But anyways, early in theirrelationship christopher started
taking susan to some wildgroovy 60s parties sex parties,
yeah, where I don't know if theywere sex parties, but they were

(41:49):
like drug parties for sure.

Marissa (41:51):
Um well, where?

Courtney (41:52):
there's drugs, there's right.
Yeah, there's sex.
So he introduced her to drugslike marijuana and lsd because
susan was like she was a goodie.
Yeah, she didn't do any of that.
Um, until she met christopher.
She was a goodie.
Yeah, she didn't do any of that.
Until she met Christopher.
She was a goodie two-shoes whowas attracted to the bad boy.
That's right.
In Christopher's interview withPamela DeBar, she asked him
about Susan's allegations ofthem taking a lot of drugs in

(42:13):
her book Bittersweet and hisresponse was she's lying like a
dog.

Marissa (42:19):
She just wanted to get in with the scene.
She's so square, which is sucha dirty hippie thing to say.
Yeah, such a dirty hippie thingto say she's so square so
square, stupid.

Courtney (42:32):
What an insult I just want to give his side of the
story regardless.
After the sheen of new love hadworn off a bit, christopher
started to get abusive, andthere's no other way to say it.
The first instance susanmentions is one in which
christopher was taking a nap andshe had just gotten out of the
bathtub and christopherconfronted her, saying here I'll

(42:56):
just, I'm just gonna rapid firethis um and christopher
confronted her, saying who areyou talking to on the phone
while I was sleeping?
and susan told him she wasn'ttalking.
Talking to on the phone while Iwas sleeping.
And Susan told him she wasn'ttalking to anyone on the phone,
she had just been taking a bath.
But he didn't believe herbecause, according to him, the
tub looked dry.
So he said I think you weretalking to a guy.
And when Susan tried to walkaway, he slapped her so hard

(43:18):
that a bruise began toimmediately appear on her cheek.

Marissa (43:21):
Jesus Christ, and then he backpedaled and said, of
course, yeah, of course, theimmediate backpedal.
Let's hear it.
Let's hear what you have tofucking say for yourself.
You say you, you, you read it,you, you do it all right, all
right, let's hear what you haveto say for yourself.
Christopher, did I hurt you?
Let me see, suzy, I wouldn'thurt you.
Let me see, susie, I wouldn'thurt you.

(43:43):
You know that.
And according to Susan, heministered gently to her face
yeah, yeah.
So immediately he physicallyassaulted her and then
immediately gaslighted her aboutit, saying he didn't do that
and he would never do that rightand she said he overwhelmed her

(44:04):
with his tenderness andaffection until somehow she
wound up feeling sorry for him.

Courtney (44:09):
Because she says, after all, he had had such a
terrible childhood and had been,and I had been, so privileged,
I felt as if I had failed him insome way.
If I had loved him, he wouldn'thave hit me.

Marissa (44:21):
That's, first of all, classic manipulation tactics
from an abuser.
Yeah, and that is I mean.
It's terrible.

Courtney (44:31):
It's terrible, yeah it happens all the time.

Marissa (44:33):
Right, people fall for it all the time.
Yeah, exactly, oh God, I feelso awful for her, yeah.

Courtney (44:40):
So, as you can imagine , their relationship continued
in this way.
Christopher got violentlyjealous and took it out on Susan
violently, and while hisjealousy, according to her,
seemed to stem from unfoundedconcerns about other men, it's
also possible that he wasjealous of Susan's career at the
time, and that's just my ownspeculation.
Okay, honestly, especially whenthey were living in New York,
she was working much more thanhim and he hadn't really found

(45:02):
his success.

Marissa (45:03):
yet, as to be expected, she was already established.

Courtney (45:07):
She was a nepo baby pretty much A hundred percent
yeah, and grew up with thattraining.
Grew up with those connections.
Of course, she grew up.

Marissa (45:16):
Her father was Lee Strasberg, for Christ's sake,
exactly.

Courtney (45:19):
How can?

Marissa (45:19):
you not be a great actress if you have training
from the cradle Right?

Courtney (45:25):
But there's definitely instances of him trying to get
Lee Strasberg to be a fatherfigure to him.
He tries to like engage him inthese big intellectual
discussions.

Marissa (45:35):
And Lee Strasberg.

Courtney (45:35):
He just doesn't take the bait like ever, Because he
saw right through him.
Yes, and so there's definitelythis unrequited love that he has
with her father.
That probably complicated, it'sjust yeah.

Marissa (45:47):
And that's a through line.
He probably never felt like hegot the respect from her father
that he deserved.

Courtney (45:52):
No, but he didn't Quote unquote deserved and he
didn't get respect from his ownfather.

Marissa (45:56):
So it was all on poor Susan's shoulders.

Courtney (45:59):
Yes, it was all on Porce's shoulders.
She was working more than hewas, of course.
Either way, he was a nightmarefor her and quite abusive.
How long, how long were theytogether?

Marissa (46:13):
This is just while they were dating too.
They weren't married yet.

Courtney (46:17):
So the abuse started before the abuse started, pretty
early I mean she's talkingabout like I don't know the
exact timeline of the abuse, butit's like she's talking about
like I don't know the exacttimeline of the abuse, but it's
like she's saying likeeverything was great for two
weeks.
We went to parties, so I don'tknow, I'm guessing everything
was great for a maximum of twomonths before all of this
started.
That's just the way it soundsfrom the way she's writing it.
But again, timeline in generalwith this is a little tricky

(46:40):
until you can pin it down withlike specific films and stuff,
and even then it gets reallycrazy.
Okay, so, um, but basically theabuse started before.

Marissa (46:48):
Yeah, the marriage, oh, 100%, it did.
Yes, which is that can?
Yes, it would only get worseafter marriage, I'm sure okay so
just buckle up, oh god, allright.

Courtney (47:00):
So she lists many alarming instances in her book.
Okay, saying that he wreckedhis motorcycle with her on the
back somehow they were bothunscathed played russian
roulette in front of her, andquote I'm assuming not the vegas
russian roulette no, no, he had, like you know, a bullet, one

(47:21):
in a cartridge and, yes, and hequote, ignored her protests and
took possession of her body.
So rape, rape, and I apologizenow that I picked such a
complicated tombstone.
Don't worry, by the way, I willinsert a trigger warning.

Marissa (47:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Courtney (47:40):
I didn't give you the benefit of a trigger.

Marissa (47:42):
Thank you.
Well, I you know I signed upfor this.
I did sign up for this knowingfull well that this would likely
happen.

Courtney (47:51):
Yeah, yeah yeah, he also, in some sort of fucked up
trust exercise, shot a piece offurniture right behind her and
let her believe he was shootingher.
Following up with you have tolearn to trust me, although,
according to Christopher, he didnot realize the gun was loaded
and accidentally shot the pieceof furniture next to her.

Marissa (48:15):
What the fuck yeah.

Courtney (48:18):
I know that this is her.
You know word against his in alot of ways, but it was brought
up in the interview, the one Ikeep mentioning, with Pamela
DeBar.
I don't think he denies thatmuch, because she asked him
about it.
The shooting of the furniture.
She asked him about in theshooting of the furniture.
She asked him about in generalher allegations about you know
the abuse, yes, the abuse, andyes, what she says in the book.

(48:39):
She asked him about her bookand he says, quote, he hit her a
few times but he wouldn't hit awoman.
Now, oh, that's great to knowWow.
And that he did not feelbetrayed by her book because he
expected it.
So that to me is like yeah, ithappened, you know, and all of
this is awful.

(48:59):
Obviously listeners are.
If you are with a man like thisrunaway, you know, and please
know that by shining light onhis story and tombstone, I am
not trying to excuse hisbehaviors.
They are.
There are likable dead peopleand unlikable dead people, as
we've said, and Chris ain't nobaron.

Marissa (49:14):
He is no baron and we hate Christopher.
Right right now, and you knowin the show notes, we will post
resources.

Courtney (49:22):
If you're in trouble or need help.
Yeah, after living in New Yorkfor a bit, christopher and Susan
had moved to Los Angeles, wherehe had got his big break
playing the titular character inthe television series the
Legend of Jesse James.
The show only lasted one season, but it did solidify him as a
pretty-faced star who receivedlots of fan mail from teen girls
and proved his bankability.

(49:43):
The year was 1965, and Susanand Chris had moved into a house
in Laurel Canyon that wasrumored to be haunted Let me
tell you something about to behaunted.

Marissa (49:52):
Let me tell you something about Laurel Canyon.

Courtney (49:54):
Let me tell you something about Laurel Canyon.
It's haunted.

Marissa (49:56):
It is haunted as hell.
Laurel Canyon, laurel Canyon.

Courtney (50:05):
Are the houses cheaper because of this?

Marissa (50:07):
Not at all.
Not one bit there is.
You have to be a special soulto live in the canyon, for sure.

Courtney (50:16):
Yeah, it's like Neil Young territory.

Marissa (50:19):
It is, yeah, there's it's.
It's a very storied place withyou know.
Artists have always lived in.

Courtney (50:28):
Laurel.

Marissa (50:28):
Canyon in one way or another.
Visual artists, actors,directors, you know music
there's a lot of music stuffgoing up there too.
So yeah, this checks out.
This makes sense.
Yes, this makes sense.

Courtney (50:42):
Okay.
So it was rumored to be haunted, and Christopher not only
really believed that it washaunted, Of course, of course he
did.
Yeah, he told Susan that he washaving a love affair with the
ghost Stop it.
Telling Susan Stop it.
You can read this part, my God,what did he tell Susan?

Marissa (51:04):
Okay.
So he told Susan that he washaving a love affair with the
ghost, telling Susan she adoresme, she can't stand you, she's
jealous.

Courtney (51:15):
She told me to get rid of you the fuck yeah, the
paranoia of all of that and theghost in our house told me to
murder you and also just like,hey, I'm hearing voices of a
person who's not here, right,and we're having, like it's
crazy, it's crazy.

Marissa (51:36):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes , yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,yes, yes yes.

Courtney (51:47):
Yes, I forgot.

Marissa (51:47):
they haven't even married yet they were not even
married.
Yet she legally bound herselfto this man, yep, after he told
her, after he moved her into thecanyon.

Courtney (51:57):
Gentlemen, a pretty face gets you farther than you
think.
Not because their relationshipwas working in any way at all,
by the way, but because Susangot pregnant.

Marissa (52:09):
Oh, baby trapped her.
Yeah, baby trapped her.

Courtney (52:11):
With their daughter, jennifer.
Okay, so Jennifer was born withhealth problems, namely a cleft
palate and a severe heartmurmur, which Susan had feared
were the result of the fact thatshe had taken a lot of drugs in
the years prior to gettingpregnant.
But this is likely not the case.

Marissa (52:30):
That's not how that works, yeah.

Courtney (52:33):
Jennifer did grow into a.
Do your drugs before you getpregnant?
But this is likely not the case.
That's not how that works.

Marissa (52:34):
Jennifer did grow into a healthy adult.
Do your drugs before you getpregnant.

Courtney (52:36):
That's right.

Marissa (52:36):
Get it out of your system.

Courtney (52:37):
Get it out of your system.

Marissa (52:38):
So it's not in your system.
That's right.

Courtney (52:40):
Yes, Jennifer did grow into a healthy adult and
Christopher did seem to showlove and concern for her as a
father, which I do want tomention.
Susan recounts that it wasChris who had noticed that
Jennifer was aspirating in theintensive care ward Back then.
It was like the typical imageyou see in movies where all of

(53:01):
the babies are in this room withglass you know, between you and
the.

Marissa (53:04):
Yeah, all of the bassinets in a row?

Courtney (53:07):
Yes, so he's like on the other side of the glass
she's not there and he sees heraspirating.

Marissa (53:12):
Wow, so he saves her.

Courtney (53:14):
Yeah, and that happened to my daughter at home.
The aspiration thing and it's.
It is really scary.
So I this stood out to me forthat reason.
And after she was treated,after he called it to somebody's
attention hey look, my kid isnot able to breathe she was
treated and he just like wentSusan didn't even know what was

(53:36):
happening and he like rushed herand the baby out of the
hospital.
He just like got him up out ofthere because he was like
they're trying to kill her,which I mean he was extreme with
his shit, but I get it yeah, Imean if when you're you don't
feel like you're being takencare of in a hospital, it feels
more like a prison.

(53:56):
But Susan and Christopher'srelationship was not one to be
salvaged by a baby.

Marissa (54:01):
Oh yeah, the baby bandaid didn't work.
Now, surprise, surprise Nowwith this mess.

Courtney (54:07):
Susan had tried to get him to go to therapy but like
many men, especially at the time, chris had refused.
As Susan recounts inBittersweet, chris had responded
by saying we can work out ourproblems alone.

Marissa (54:23):
He said.
Doctors are the sickest peoplearound.
They live up in their heads.
They don't know anything aboutreal life.
This is different, christopher.
Why don't you come with me andtalk to the doctor?
If we went together, it wouldbe better.
They'd just try to destroy me.
We wouldn't have any problemsif you'd accept the fact that
you're only a woman.

(54:44):
And let me be the man of thehouse.
I'm the strong one.

Courtney (54:51):
And the misogyny we spoke of before does pop its
head up again and again, again,again, again again.
This is all from Susan's book.
So no surprise, they gotdivorced in 1968.

Marissa (55:02):
So how long did the marriage last?

Courtney (55:04):
That was so they got well, they got married in 1965.
Okay, I believe so, yeah, 1968.

Marissa (55:11):
So a few years, god.
Not a moment too soon, susan?

Courtney (55:15):
no a few moments too late, really.
Yeah, um, okay.
So they got divorced in 1968,but not before co-starring in a
film called chubasco that no oneremembers.

Marissa (55:26):
Nobody remembers this movie because um people wanted
to actively forget it because itwas so bad no, it's just just
listen to the premise okay like.

Courtney (55:36):
It's about a young rebel, obviously played by
christopher johns, who secretlymarries the daughter of the
portuguese tuna boat captain heworks for in san diego.
That's the whole log line,that's it that's it I'm not.
I don't want to see that movie.
You know what I mean mygoodness no it sounds boring as
fuck.
I didn't see the movie.

(55:57):
Okay, I didn't because that Ididn't want to, but this is way
to do your research there's toomany damn movies.
come on, I watched, listen.
I watched wildness streets andwe're going to talk about it.
But like, okay, so this isChubasco.
That's Susan Strasberg,gorgeous Puta.

(56:17):
You can go home now, becausehe's Portuguese but has no
accent.

Marissa (56:22):
But not clearly white.
Yeah, and she's a.

Courtney (56:26):
Jewish girl from New York.
This is very rebel without acause.
I see the James Dean thing.

Marissa (56:29):
Yes, yes, thank you Because, like there's a whole
it's like Without a Cause.
I see the James Dean thing.
Yes, yes, Thank you.

Courtney (56:33):
Because there's a whole.
It's like in a jail.
I was wrong I was wrong itliterally looks like it actually
looks like a scene out of RebelWithout a Cause.

Marissa (56:41):
Yes, it's like did they use the same costumer, set
designer, everything, everything, yes, wow.

Courtney (56:49):
Right.
And he's like fighting with herfather, which feels I don't
know appropriate wait.
I want to hear him talk, doeshe?
He does like, but you know whata lot of he got dubbed.
A lot he got.
We'll get there we'll get there.

Christopher Jones (57:02):
He got dubbed a lot okay.

Courtney (57:04):
Casting susan and chris together in the film was
not the original plan but moreof a backup plan because, you
see, susan had received anurgent call from the director
who had said uh, susanchristopher is acting a little
rambunctious with the girlswe've been testing.

Marissa (57:21):
He bit the last one when he kissed her.
What we were thinking was wouldyou like to play the part,
instead of recasting themotherfucker who was biting
these poor actresses who werejust going in to audition for a
fucking part?
Are you fucking kidding me?

Courtney (57:41):
warner brothers.
There's a lot where I'm likewhat?

Marissa (57:45):
the fuck, listen, listen.

Courtney (57:47):
Your husband is abusing um these actresses could
you come in and take the abuse?

Christopher Jones (57:51):
Yeah, could you come in you know, how he?

Marissa (57:53):
gets.
Can you just come in and lethim.

Courtney (57:56):
You're used to his love bites, right?
Okay, so all it took to breakthem up after that film was one
last jealous outburst fromChristopher, and Susan was out
of there.
She had complicated feelingsabout it until she learned that
it was Christopher who had beenwith with another woman the
night before I had never beenjealous.

Marissa (58:16):
She recounts.
I always sensed my realcompetition was his love for his
own pain, so now I felt free togo.

Courtney (58:27):
That's heartbreaking, yeah it's like she is a really
smart person and and you cantell honestly just by her level
of empathy that she's a goodactor like she, yes empathizes
so much with him that it itactually hurts herself.
But she can see his humanitythe class to a fault, right?

Marissa (58:45):
classic like what is it uh um, lighting yourself on
fire to keep others warm.
Martyr yes.

Courtney (58:55):
Yeah, so they divorced and let's yeah Good job, Susan,
you got out.

Marissa (59:03):
Good job Susan, you got out Susan.

Courtney (59:05):
And while his relationship was kaput,
Christopher's career wasreaching its highest heights.

Marissa (59:11):
As I mentioned.
Oh, did that movie really justput him over the top, Honestly?

Courtney (59:16):
everything Chubasco it was.
It was, I mean, the legend ofJesse James, I think and this is
he always.
He very much did have the JamesDean thing of playing the rebel
.
Right.
So he was seen as like acounterculture figure.
He was seen as this bad boy andhe was getting all this fan
mail from girls from the veryfirst time he got any kind of

(59:38):
Everything was feeding into it.
Everything was feeding into it.
So it's like he was bankable100 percent.
There's no denying that heactually he was Interest in
these films was because of hisfucking face, his physicality
his pretty, his damn cheekbones.
Yes, as I mentioned a littleearlier, he starred in a super
bizarre musical called Wild inthe Streets, which I watched in

(01:00:01):
full, because you can watch itfor free on YouTube.

Marissa (01:00:05):
You're welcome.

Courtney (01:00:06):
You're welcome everyone.

Marissa (01:00:07):
Or we're sorry.

Yeah, it was no, listen, it's a teen exploitation
pic that satirically pits thecounterculture who we, as I just
said.
Christopher is against the manby championing a cool 60s rocker
named Max Frost, played byJones, who wants to lower the
voting age to 14.

Marissa (01:00:31):
Honestly.

Sure, sure, sure, and Max gained so much political
momentum from the plentifulyoung punks in his boomer base,
which were the youth at the time.

Marissa (01:00:41):
Yeah, I have to clarify Wow, the boomers.
The boomers were the youths,the boomers were the youths.

It's a weird thing to like wrap your mind around, but
that's what was going on.
So he gets so much momentumbehind this, this base of
boomers who were, you know, 52%of the population or whatever
that he becomes president of theUnited States.
And and it's good.
Just listen to this, oh God,because if Chubasco is a movie I

(01:01:09):
didn't want to watch, this isthe movie Obviously I watched.
Right, right.
So and he makes how could younot?
I mean, truly, it's insane.
So and he makes retirement atage 30 mandatory.
Honestly, not mad about it,that's fine.

Marissa (01:01:24):
I would love to have already retired Totally.

And puts anyone.
This is the part you won't loveand puts anyone over 35 in
concentration camps with LSDspiked water.

Marissa (01:01:38):
Live the rest of my days, just high, just high, but
like out of your mind.

Hallucinating.
Like hallucinating and likeseeing monsters.
Oh my gosh, this movie is crazy.
This movie is crazy.
First of all, let me just playa scene where you can see him
like moving his hips and doinghis thing, All right.

Christopher Jones (01:02:00):
The 52 percent.
52 percent of America is under25 years old.
The rest of them babies.
They're the minority, we're themajority, we're the majority.

Look at that ponytail.

Guys, he has a terrible ponytail attachment
to his head.
It's like a he's like, he'slike.
Is he dubbed here, apparently?

Or is this a show?
This is a show.
She's like steaming her face.
Hearing her son on tv?
Yeah, and hot rollers, oh mygod, so you can hear from the
stupid lyrics of that andwhatever that it's like.

Marissa (01:03:06):
That's like yeah, we're 52, we can like take over
everything and we can take overthe world and you did you know
later, when you were old and youweren't in a costume Like how
could you not, with those tightpants, those cheekbones and that
hot ponytail?

The pony.
Okay, the ponytail is like, hehas just a normal.
It's not even a mullet, he hasa normal haircut with a ponytail
, just like just slapped intothe middle of his head, just
attached to the back of his head.
It's crazy, and Shelly Wintersis unhinged.

Marissa (01:03:38):
I will say it does.
It does look like that's himsinging.

Maybe there's parts where you know, like, ok, the
dubbing stuff again.
I'm just going to say thistruly like the things that I can
find as facts, it's very hardto find sources about him where,
like, the information is thesame in everyone, right, so it's
kind of choosing the mostreliable of whatever people that
were close to him.
There's times I know he wasdubbed and then there's other

(01:04:04):
times where it's possible it's arumor.

Marissa (01:04:06):
He it definitely because matching they were not
that good at matching back then,right, and that it does look
like that was him singing and hedoesn't have a terrible voice.
It is passable.

It's passable.
This is also a clip I want toplay.
So he's been asked by thispolitician who's like, I think,
37, to try to who's like an old,to try to get everybody to get
on board with lowering thevoting age to 18, because at the
time it wasn't.
I think it was 21 for a whileand then they lowered it to 18.

(01:04:39):
That hadn't happened yet.
Wow, that was the whole thing.
They wanted to lower it to 18and he is like, no, it's 14
because it's got to be, becausethese are my reasons.

So okay, they reasons.
So Tell me, johnny Fergus.

That's the politician.

Pretty groovy guy.
Tell me he's a swinger.
Tell me he's young.
Johnny Fergus is 37 years old,Old.
If he were in baseball he'd beall fagged out, baby.

I don't know.

Now let's talk about chicks.
You know that I have never meta chick who admitted to being 35
.
Unless maybe she was 75.
Now let's get serious.
Johnny Fergus is running on theplatform that if you're old
enough to die for your country,then you're old enough to vote,

(01:05:38):
and I'm all for that.
He wants to change the votingage to 18.
18.
That's still playing sneakyPanther games.
Sneaky Panther games.
So, 60th.
The boy who does my income taxand I'm rich babies is 15.

(01:06:03):
Look at the boy who does hisincome tax, johnny Fergus, you
want to level with us?
You want to join our club, baby?
Then you give us the vote at 14.
We're with you.
I got a song I've been doingweird things with all day.
I don't know if I know all thewords or not, but let's see if
he's dubbed here I'm going totry to sing it for you.

Well, you can play guitar.
Yeah, a little bit.
I think he's dubbed here 14 orfive.
Yeah, I think this is dubbedyeah.
Then they were like yeah, Ifeel rebellious.
I want to rebel and vote so, um,I want to say that my father

(01:06:51):
remembers seeing this movie andhe said that he liked it and, as
he recalls, there were somepretty good songs in it.
I didn't really feel that waywatching it, but my dad may have
had a point, because the musicin this film was written by

(01:07:12):
songwriting duo Davey Allen andCynthia Weil, who were
responsible for actual hit songslike the Animals we Gotta Get
Out of this Place and the.
Righteous Brothers, you Lostthat Loving Feeling.

Marissa (01:07:24):
Wow.
So they wrote the music andthat's a bop.

Yep, that's a bop, that's right.
And there was a song calledShape of Things to Come from
this movie that made it tonumber 22 on the Billboard
charts.
And you know, as we justdiscussed, even if the music was
good, christopher and his bandwere not actually performing and
they were dubbed by a bandcalled David Allen and the
Arrows.
So Christopher gets no creditfor that.

(01:07:47):
He gets no credit for any songsthat were good.
Sorry, any of the songs, yeah.
Also, richard Pryor is in thismovie in one of his first
performances.
What, yeah here I'll show youAgain.
I'm going to have to cut thisout a little bit, but here yeah,
but I want to see it.
Okay.

Fuji Ellie 14 .
Japanese typewriter heiress.
And that's her introduction,and then she just massages him
all the time.
This Asian woman, you're groovybut you're outnumbered.

Who the hell's in the majority man?
That's Richard Pryor.

You read the papers, don't you?
Yeah, I read the papers.
This was like one of his veryfirst.
I know he's painfully young.

Marissa (01:08:28):
He's such a baby.
He doesn't have any facial hair.
It's weird.

You can see his upper lip.
Yeah, it's bizarre.
And then also this movie usesstock footage of real riots for
the riot scenes in it andthey're like this is the most
crazy thing the youth has gottentogether for to like fight for
in quite a long time, and thismovie was made in 1968.
And it's like I'm pretty surethat the youth are fighting a

(01:08:53):
lot more.

Marissa (01:08:54):
Pretty sure, pretty sure, there's been a lot of
marches.

A lot of civil rights stuff happening.
This is not the most important.
This is crazy.
So look it up on YouTube if youwant to see this movie.
The whole movie's there, no ads, just do it.

Marissa (01:09:10):
Oh my God, no ads, just do it.
Oh my God, no ads.
What's yeah Wild in the streets, that's right Free on YouTube
no ads.
Check it out, you're welcome.

So at this point in his career Christopher is
gaining momentum and he goes onto star in a few more films in
very quick succession.
1968 and 1969 were really hisbig years actually, so he did a
lot in two years he was on fire.
Yes, first there was Three inthe Attic A Tale of Infidelity
what a stretch, yep.
Then there was the LookingGlass War, a spy thriller
co-starring Anthony Hopkins.

(01:09:49):
What he was?
Kind of a big fucking deal, Itelling you, based on a john
lecar novel and brief season, astory of star-crossed love.
These are all movies he did.
My mind is blown right now yeahno, he was like a big deal.
And during these yearschristopher went through his own
series of star-crossed loves.
He dated swedish actress piadesermark after his divorce from

(01:10:12):
strasburg, who had been in thelooking glass war and brief
season with him, and heseriously dated actress olivia
hussey, who you may know as theactress who played juliet in the
1968 film romeo and juliet,directed by franco zaffarelli.
So she's the original juliet infilm world.
Oh my gosh.
Um, but it was his and I'mgonna get back to her.

(01:10:32):
But it was his performance inthe looking glass war that
caught the attention of directordavid lean.
Now, lean was a pretty hugedirector at the time and
actually is considered to be ahuge director now, at least in a
classic film kind of way hedirected films that, yeah, are
considered classics today, likedr zhivago and lawrence of

(01:10:54):
arabia yeah, you can't get anymore classic than that, yep
david found christopher to bequite convincing as a brooding,
hot-headed polish spy in hisperformance in looking glass war
.
He was especially convinced byhis dark presence and accent
work.
This led him to cast Jones inhis upcoming romantic period

(01:11:15):
piece, ryan's Daughter, in whichhe needed Christopher to play a
British officer.
After he'd cast Jones and theywere actively filming, he
wondered why Christopher was noteven attempting to do a British
accent.
It was then that he discoveredthat christopher's performance
in the looking glass war hadbeen dubbed.

(01:11:35):
Some people don't believe thatit was dubbed, but in I have a
source that is pretty close towhat source spill the tea.
The sources, well, the sources.
His co-star, sarah miles, andryan's daughter, who was like
just literally hearing whatDavid Lean had to say, right,
when Chris walked away.
Right, he at least believed hewas dubbed.

(01:11:57):
He found this out later and wasmad about it, and that at least
he believed that.

Marissa (01:12:03):
So he didn't have him audition for the role as a
straight offer Yep and there isno.
This is why you have to have adialect code.
This is why you have to have adialect code.
This is why you have to.
First of all.

Yeah so.

Marissa (01:12:15):
So, many.

I mean I right now, ok , hold on a minute.
I feel like OK.

Marissa (01:12:20):
So I need to see.
I need to see the looking glass, the looking glass, all right,
ok, so this is Anthony Hopkinsoh my God.

Dark hahaired Anthony Hopkins.

Hey you, why do you head up?
What's your name?
You can't have my name.
It's a breach of security.
Look, you know I am risking mylife for you, so I want a name.
Give me a name, I don't care.
Any name John, john, john.

Marissa (01:12:54):
I don't know if he's dubbed?

I don't think he's dubbed, it's just not a very
good accent.

Marissa (01:12:58):
No, he just sounds foreign.

Yeah.

You got the kid.

But David Lane believed he was dubbed Boy.

What's he good for?

Marissa (01:13:11):
Good for walking in the park following dogs collecting
junk.
See, he's going in and out ofthe accent.

You've got a wife, you've got a kid Right, so like,
why would you have it dubbed bysomething else?

Will you tell me what the hell there is for
me?

Marissa (01:13:25):
Yeah, he's, that's not dubbed.
He's, that's not dubbed.
Mr Lean was Misinformed and hehe just can't do accent work and
he can't.
Very well, yeah, I mean, Ithink he did like a semi, that's
not.

He was impressed by it .
He was impressed by it, he wasimpressed by this bullshit.

Marissa (01:13:43):
I'm sorry Like this is bad yeah.

This is it's not good.
It's not good.

Marissa (01:13:48):
It's not good it's not good, it's not dubbed, because
if it was dubbed, it would havebeen done.

better it would have been done better and you can
tell.
Right, and I've read otherpeople who have the same opinion
.
It's just for some reason withthis particular thing, like it's
hard to find out.
Okay, so the director, becauseif he was, it was like done in
secret.

Marissa (01:14:06):
This is what it.
The director, mr Lean, had toomuch of an ego to be like I was
wrong about this guy and insteadhe had to be like this guy.
It was a lie the whole time.

Yeah, I mean I also think he really was hardly
attempting a British accent,Like I can't even find easily
scenes of him talking in Ryan'sdaughter, like in the trailer or
anything.
It's like they just don'treally show him talking that
much.

Marissa (01:14:32):
Did they dub him in Ryanyan's daughter?

yes, yes, they did, that's for sure.
They did absolutely so you cantell and well, yeah, like, but
okay, so, and they're, and theperson's credited, I like know,
yeah yeah right.
So lean had vented hisfrustrations to robert mitchum,
who was also acting in ryan'sdaughter.
Um, he said I'm.
Do you want to read this?
I'll just say, yeah, I'mtrapped in my own casting

(01:14:55):
nightmare.
He complained he's incapable ofhitting the mark and smiling
simultaneously.
In the end, christopher'sinability to do the accent.
You know, that really is whatled him to being dubbed again by
Julian Holloway.
So that did happen.

Marissa (01:15:11):
Yeah.

But Lean did have this to say about Christopher.
He had this extraordinaryquality of screen presence which
I always find terriblydifficult to describe or even to
understand, and watching clipsof Christopher, I have to say
that I think that this is true.
Yeah, and it is the sceneswhere he's not speaking and he's
physical that he's the mostcaptivating.

Marissa (01:15:30):
No one said he didn't have a fine body, that he knew
how to move right he knows howto move it, though, like he
knows how to occupy space.

He does have that and a lot of people struggle with
that.
So I mean he does have that.
Uh, so sarah miles was theactress playing christopher's
love interest in the film andshe had this to say about jones
she's brit.

Marissa (01:15:50):
Oh, thank you, You're welcome.
Christopher Jones was a lawn tohimself.
I like him a lot, although Ithink he was having personal
problems at the time.
Playing a leading part in aDavid Lean epic, that of an
upper class English major, ashell-shocked First World War

(01:16:13):
hero, no less, isn't the idealthing to combine with being an
American who has very littlefilm experience and an identity
crisis Oof she's, I mean so shewas like, she was like it wasn't
easy for him.
He was having an identitycrisis.

Yeah, I think she's being fair.
Yeah, that was very diplomaticof him.
He was having an identitycrisis.
Yeah, I think she's being fair.
Yeah, that was very diplomaticof her.
It was so, according to MilesJones, had requested to bring
his Ferrari over to Ireland.
I love that.
Like this actually happened.
Can you imagine making thatrequest now, like honestly, if
anyone did like yeah, you thinkpeople do like I have my own

(01:16:52):
ferrari shipped to ireland, not,can you just like?
Now it would be like can wejust get you one here?

Marissa (01:16:57):
I mean, I feel like if you're that much of a star and
you can be that pushy yeah, Ibet.

I just don't think he was doing well enough in this
movie for them to you know whatI mean but he was regretting
casting him and he's like, hey,can I?

Marissa (01:17:11):
have my ferrari like he would have got fired yes so
they bring it over to ireland,where the film was shot after
shooting had began and hewrecked it because he didn't
know how to drive it on theother, on the other side of the
road.

Well, I have theories about why, but yeah so um lean
had obliged, and then said, inconfidence hopefully he'll kill
himself.
Oh my god he was really nothappy with the fact that he cast
him um and christopher did notkill himself in it, but he did
total the car, speeding down adirt road, just as he had done
with another car while filmingbrief season in italy, which was
just like months before.

(01:17:44):
He truly seemed to be soenamored with the lore of james
dean's death that he wanted toclaim it as his own, and I I say
that because this is the thirdcrash.

Marissa (01:17:53):
He did the motorcycle crash with Susan, the car crash
in Italy and now this one.

Yeah, you read this.
This is like.
I think this is relevant here.

Marissa (01:18:06):
So this is from Christopher.
Sometimes I feel like a JamesDean Avenger.
Maybe I'm a continuation of thewhole thing.
He later said A piece of thepuzzle's gone because Dean was
too wild and had an accident.
But he was the real thing.
Most people are afraid to dieand that's what makes you the

(01:18:29):
real thing to die, and that'swhat makes you the real thing,
whether you're afraid to die.
But dean was something divinelike no actor before or since.
I'm fascinated with death, thatkind of death he had a death
wish he had a death, afascination with a car crash,

(01:18:52):
death.

Yes, like to the point that he wanted it for himself.
Well, I mean so I?

Marissa (01:19:00):
just it, weirdly, you know, had he died that way while
filming, while being with afamous director.
We would have probably knownwho the fuck he was.

Yeah, and this episode would not be as long or as
confusing or as difficult toresearch, because his lost years
were hard.
Let me tell you.

But anyway we'll get yes.

Okay, so let's adjourn for now, because there's so
much more.
There's so much more.
I think we're going to pickback up part two in the middle
of him filming Ryan's daughter.
So we're going to get rightback into that set, which

(01:19:46):
honestly kind of makes sense,because I should say this that
movie was had all these likeweather problems and it was
filmed in ireland and it took anentire year, so this is like a
good it's of course we're stilltalking like there's a lot going
on.
It makes sense to pause in themiddle of it because a lot of
shit went down while he wasfilming a year-long film.

Marissa (01:20:07):
yeah, yeah, well, ire Ireland's weather.
Yeah, it's not famous forcooperating.

Exactly so.
We're going to come back toChristopher Jones.

If you guys are still with us.

I hope I will say it's not like it gets more boring.
There's a lot of stuff.

Marissa (01:20:25):
This is fascinating.
It's pretty fascinating, RightLike had he actually killed
himself in a car on on this setfor this famous movie director.
We might have known who he was.

Yeah, and I think people would be more sympathetic
to some of his performances orwhatever Like.
I don't know a lot of things,but it's.
It's interesting how that cancolor stuff.
But, right, I can't wait forpart two.
Yeah, so we're going to comeback to part two and and you
guys are going to.
You know you can't Wikipediathis, by the way, if you're
trying to be like I don't wantto listen to part two.
I'm going to just look this up.
How the sense?

Marissa (01:20:56):
you can't, you can't.

It took me forever to find things that I consider to
be facts adjacent at the verybest.
So come back.
There's some salacious tidbits.
I'll wait for you in episodetwo, can't wait.
All right, until then.
You know, stay alive until nextweek, so that you don't end up

(01:21:19):
on this podcast too soon.
That was dark, sorry.

Marissa (01:21:26):
Okay, Dead and Kind of Famous is written, researched
and produced by CourtneyBlomquist.
It is co-hosted by MarissaRivera.
We tag team on socials.
Jesse Russell and CourtneyBlomquist do our editing.

If we've piqued your curiosity, please subscribe on
Substack atdeadandkindoffamoussubstackcom.
We list each episode there,along with photos, newsletters,
sources and more.
You can also find us whereveryou get your podcasts.
Until next time, you might notbe famous, but you got a story
to tell and you're not dead yet.

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