Episode 27: The Rowan Tree, Spiritual Burnout, and Whale Falls

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (00:19):
Oh, I forgot to take my allergy
pill.
Let me go do that real quick.

deep-sea-peepee--she-her- (00:24):
Barry needs one of them.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (00:26):
he does.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (00:27):
My.

deep-sea-peepee--she-her-_1_0 (00:28):
I think River's editing this one,
so we'll have to, I don't knowwhere I was going with that.
What was I gonna say?
Something about their bitchex-wife.
I don't know.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (00:42):
Okay.

deep-sea-peepee--she-her-_1 (00:46):
The giggle at the background.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (00:48):
know

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (00:48):
I'm just getting, I'm minding my own
business, getting my littleallergy pill, my name, brand
allergy pill, and all of a

Okay, rich.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (00:58):
it's the only ones that work for the
generic ones don't fucking work.
For some reason, for me, eventhough it's the same exact
ingredient and the same exactdose, they do not work for me.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:09):
this episode is sponsored by Allegra.

deep-sea-peepee--she-he (01:13):
Viagra.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04 (01:14):
actually.

Oh,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (01:17):
my apologies.

deep-sea-peepee--she-her-_ (01:20):
that one doesn't sound like a dick
pill.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:23):
Uh, more like put it in, am I right?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (01:27):
A

Oh,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:32):
uh, get ready to listen to an hour
and some change of that.
Everybody

yeah.
I guess we're in.
Welcome everybody to DeathCoven, the podcast.
Uh, we come to your ears everyother Thursday and, uh, yeah.
Welcome.
Hello, my name is Poppy.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:52):
Happy to have you here.
I'm river.
I got allergies and my cats arerunning am muck around me.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (02:00):
and I'm Sky.
My cats also are pretty boogery,so.

Yeah, my cats have been exiled out of
the room.
Today, we each picked our owntopic that we're interested in.
We're gonna bring it to yourears.
Uh, I think river's gonna gofirst, right?
No, sky's gonna go first.
Um, what are you gonna talkabout today?

(02:26):
Sky.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (02:28):
Well, as I've told you two in our
group chat, I will be talkingabout a plant, more specifically
a tree.
But I am going to wait to revealwhat kind of tree it is because
it's got some other names, um,that I would like to reveal the,

(02:50):
main common name revealed at theend, so

deep-sea-peepee--she-h (02:54):
Awesome.
And then we'll have river up tobat.
What are you talking about?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (02:59):
I wouldn't say this is a topic I'm
necessarily interested in, butit is, um,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (03:06):
a unnecessary evil.

It's, it's topical to my life.
Is germane the right word?
Germane to my life and my sortof situation right now.
What does germane mean?
Cornal looks that up for me real

I work with a guy named Jermaine.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (03:24):
All I know is the, the Laur, Saint
Jermaine Elderflower Laur.

know.
Germane Clement from

Germane, relevant or pertinent to the
matter at

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (03:34):
right.
I was trying to think of theword pertinent, but I could only
think of the word germane forsome reason.
'cause I like that

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (03:40):
This, the synonym.

Mm-hmm.
I love a synonym.
I love a,

papa-skye_1_04-27-20 (03:45):
Excellent.
They're literate.
They read.
They're so smart.

Ooh.
So today I am gonna be talkingabout spiritual burnout and
fatigue because I'm in a littlebit of a fatigue state.
I'm feeling real low energy, anduh, it's my podcast and I could
talk about whatever I want, andthat's what I wanna talk about

Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I, poppy will bebringing a little bit of a
scientific topic, um, at theend, but it still has a death
tie in.
it's a tie in to the cycle oflife and death and rebirth, and
it also has kind of adjacentties to the underworld a little

(04:30):
bit.
so I'm gonna be talking aboutWhale Falls today.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (04:35):
I am so fucking excited.
I love Whale Falls.

insane.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (04:43):
I love looking at pictures of
them.
I love looking at all the littlecreatures that are just like
picking the little meat off thebones.

Yeah, I was really excited about it
because it is so, like, youknow, the biodiversity of it all
and it's super interesting froman ecological standpoint, but
also the ocean is really scary.
And reading about specificallylike how deep the ocean is, just
gives me the

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (05:09):
How far down those whale falls

oh, it makes my spine do that thing
where it feels like it's beingscooped out the back of me, you
know?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (05:18):
It makes me think of, you know, um,
in Lion King, the elephantgraveyard.
It's like that, but the aquaticversion.

like that, but deep underwater,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (05:28):
Yeah.

Deep, deep.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04- (05:30):
anything could be down there.

deep-sea-peepee--she-her-_1_ (05:33):
So that's the plan.
Uh, but before we get into that,we do have a little hypothetical
game.
Uh, listeners, if this is yourfirst time with us, every
episode near the beginning, wedo a little hypothetical game.
I put river and sky into mortalperil of some sort, and they
have to figure out how to getout of it.

(05:54):
Sometimes they're, sometimesthey're lighter and they aren't
on the cusp of death or.
You know, threatened by, um,medieval disease

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (06:05):
or politicians

or politicians.
Yeah.
Um, but today again, uh, we areback in mortal peril.
I haven't put you guys, uh, Ihaven't put your lives on the
lines recently.
So

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (06:22):
Put me in

this is what we're doing

What is it?

Yeah.
Okay.
So you're lost in the wildernessagain.
Um, but this time it's okaybecause there are three
different groups of animals thathave offered to let you join
them and become like part oftheir, part of their community,
part of their family,essentially.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1 (06:45):
Animal gangs.

deep-sea-peepee--she-her (06:47):
animal gangs.
And the catch is that they areall also at war with

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (06:52):
Oh,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (06:53):
See it was giving gang.
I was like, it's giving Animal

it's warring

Yeah.
Yeah.
So you have to consider that,um, whichever gang you choose,
you know, you're gonna be have,you have to fight against the
other two.
and these don't all necessarilylive in the same ecosystem, but
we're just gonna pretend thatthey do.
Um, you have one, a troop ofchimpanzees.

(07:18):
Pretty good.

tummy-ache-jones_1 (07:19):
Interesting.

Two, obviously we gotta go pack a
wolves and then three.
An army of all rodents in thearea.
You've got mice, you've gotsquirrels, um, the little guys
that live underground, you know,any kind of rodent, well, CAPY
bears too.

(07:40):
We'll throw them in there.
They're rodents, right?
I think they're,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (07:45):
I think they're the largest
rodent.

I think so,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (07:49):
So before you even started, I
thought of wolf.
'cause I was like, well Wolfsounds

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (07:54):
It is gotta be a wolf has to be an
option,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (07:58):
but I feel like the underdog, if you
get all of the rodents togetherat the same time, like they
could climb up and like bitechimpanzees and wolves.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (08:08):
but

they're also good at

fucking insane a chimpanzee is and how
strong they are and how sharptheir teeth are

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (08:14):
But imagine a chimpanzee being
completely covered in rodents.
They really can't do much about

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (08:21):
All rodents you said

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (08:23):
All, rodents.

not, not like all rodents in the
world, but you know, it's it's alot of

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (08:29):
to be there.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (08:30):
if it was just rats, like even if
it, you just had a hoard ofrats, like clawing and climbing
all over other animals, like Ithink that, I don't want to pick
the rodent option, but it seemsthe most logical to me.

You also, I mean, you have to
consider, you have to live withthese animals too.
So say chimpanzees, you're gonnabe in like.
Tree nests that they built.
Wolves, you might be living inlike a cave or some kind of rock
shelter.

honestly, I would kind of love to live
with wolves.

Rodents.
They probably have like tunnelsunderground or something.
So you're living in a little

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (09:05):
I don't think I can live in a
little borough.

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (09:09):
Yeah, I think I want to pick wolves,

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (09:13):
even though I don't think it's the
most smart

think your faction would win?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (09:19):
No.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (09:22):
I think living with chimpanzees
would frighten me every secondof every single day.
Like even though they'veaccepted me and I'm one of them,
I'd be like,

Well, they still fight each

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (09:32):
any moment.
Yeah.
Like you could rip my throat outwith your teeth at any moment.

Yeah,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (09:39):
And my soft little body, I remember
a funny joke, I smile.
One of them takes it as like anaggression sign.
I'm

Yeah, you can never smile

Yeah.
I love smiling.

At least wolves, you probably will
build up some kind of likelasting companionship

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (09:55):
Oh, and I would love to just like be
in a cuddle puddle

and little wolfy cuddle puddle howl
at the moon

yeah.

You'll have to become nocturnal though,
right?
Because they were mostly activeat

think so.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (10:07):
I am already nocturnal, so that's
okay

Mm.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (10:10):
It would be an easy

that would be hard for me.
So I feel like.
I feel like the chimpanzeeswould win in a fight, if I'm
being

believe so.

Um, I mean, rodents might, if you
had all three in like aclearing, you know, all at a
standoff, it could go either.
It depends on how many rodentsthere are,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (10:31):
Yeah.

but I also feel like potentially
there, there might be a truce inthere.
Like I could see them all beinglike, okay, let's not, let's not
fight.
Especially the chimps and the

breaking dawn part two situation where
they're like, this is gonna endbadly for everybody.
Let's call it off.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (10:54):
Yeah.
I think if I picked the wolvesand it say they had a truce, and
it was just sort of a, I stay inmy territory.
You stay in your territory.
And then with the occasional,like there's a rodent on our
turf, like obviously a wolf isjust gonna like fucking eat that
rodent and kill it real quick.
And I mean,

Then it becomes like a hatfield of
McCoy situation.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1 (11:16):
right?
And I feel like the wolves aretypically in a pack together,

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (11:22):
whereas I feel like one chimp might
wander off.
I don't know if they'renecessarily always together.
So because one chimp versus onewolf, it's really anybody's
game.
And I might be betting on the

might have the upper hand.
Yeah,

Well, wolves are re like real wolves
are really big.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (11:42):
yeah,

But if the chimp gets on its back,
you know, like again, we gottwilight, eclipse,

strength and like the mobility of a chimp
has like an upper hand on acanine, you

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (11:56):
yeah.
But one chimp versus a pack ofwolves.
No.

going down, chimp's getting eight
quick.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (12:02):
So I'm thinking, I'm thinking I
still wanna stick with thewolves'cause of, that'd probably
be the more realistic situation.
We're probably not gonna be in aclearing with all three animal
gangs.

I think I'm going chimp.

Okay.

I feel like that will give me the
best.
I do like to climb.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I think they also,if, as long as I'm able to know
my place, I think likeincorporate myself into the
right rung of society, notchallenge anybody, just kind of,
you know, eat my fruit, eat somebugs, whatever.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (12:37):
You think you could groom

okay.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (12:40):
do like picking

I think I'll have to learn to, I
think I'll have to learn to if,if like, I wonder, I feel like
wolves if you tried to leave,like if a helicopter comes down
or whatever, or you have to getto an access point and get
carried out, the wolves would belike, okay, yeah, you go live
your life.
The chimps would be pissed ifyou tried to leave.

Yeah.

I think the rodents would also be
pissed if you tried to leave.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (13:06):
I don't know that much about
rodent show behavior.
I know they have like strongbonds though.

Mm-hmm.
I don't know.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (13:14):
I don't think I want any of them
to fight.
That's my opinion in my hottake.
I want

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (13:19):
a peace and love in the

Yeah.
Peace and love on planet earth.
Why can't we all just get along?

Wow.
That's such an original

know.
I thought.
of it myself just now.
Has anybody tried it?
Has anybody given that a shotyet, or,

Um, I think they're usually cults
and they end up imploding,

Yeah, because it's usually just for
sex.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (13:42):
And the money.

Mm-hmm.

okay.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (13:47):
we got two wolves in a chimp.
When are we gonna fight

The two wolves in a chimp.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (13:51):
two

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (13:52):
rival gangs.

Well, that's the hypothetical for
today.
Thank you so

bad.
That wasn't even thatemotionally upsetting as it

No, no.
I, I mean, really the only perilis that you're lost in the
wilderness and you might have tofight a wolf

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (14:08):
And you might be surrounded by
chimps at some

or you might be surrounded by a,
like just a group of a hundredsquirrels.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (14:15):
Oh, that's a nightmare.
I don't like that.
If I'm near more than threesquirrels, I start to get
nervous.

deep-sea-peepee--she- (14:22):
Squirrels are spies.
Like the chimps are likewarriors.
The squirrels are spies, thewolves are,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (14:30):
They're like soldiers.
I feel like

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (14:34):
One time a squirrel dropped a banana
on me and laughed at me.
I ever tell you guys that

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (14:41):
an entire banana or just like a

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (14:42):
a whole unpeeled banana dropped

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (14:47):
good bit.
That's

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (14:48):
the head, and then I heard it in one
of its little squirrel friendschittering in the tree above me
and I

Wait, this actually

this actually happened.

Excuse me.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (14:59):
I, it was in the house I grew up
in.
I was maybe like 12 or 13.
I was like walking from my houseto like the driveway to like the
car or

Mm-hmm.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (15:08):
and a hole.
Unpeeled, unright banana, fellfrom a tree above me, hit me on
the head.
And then I look up and there arethese two little squirrels
running around and chitteringand laughing at me.
And I said, oh, this waspremeditated.

They said, look at that hairless
chimp.
Get

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (15:26):
I'm gonna Get'em.
And I said, first of all,where'd you get that banana
from?
Second of all, how dare you?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (15:33):
It is Giving old school Looney
Tunes and Vil joke.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (15:38):
so silly.
I couldn't even be that mad.
'cause I was like, this is funnyas fuck.
Honestly.

I feel like this is podcast
content for 15 years in

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (15:50):
In 15 years people are gonna love
this.

I'm excited to hear about this tree.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (15:56):
I can't wait.
What's the tree?

I have a tree tattoo.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (16:01):
You do?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (16:03):
Well, I am going to be talking to you
today about sous occu, alsoknown as the Witch Wagon tree,
mountain Ash, or more commonlyknown as Rowan.

Hmm?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (16:22):
So I'll be talking to you about the
Rowan tree.

is that the odin tree?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (16:27):
No, but I do spoilers.
I do get into a little bit ofNorse mythology with it

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (16:35):
As you do with trees.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (16:37):
as you do with trees.
Yeah.
So I found a lovely little,Opening, if you will, on a
website called woodlandtrust.org.uk.
That I just thought would be anice little, little bite to
showcase this tree.
And it says, bane of witches,diviner of the future, and

(17:00):
producer of Jam.
Rowan is an elegant tree with amystical history.
Its leaves and berries are afavorite for wildlife in woods
and towns alike.

tummy-ache-jones_1_ (17:12):
Delightful.
Splendid.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (17:15):
A little mystical magical tree.

God.
And it makes the jam.

it's the bane of witches, but also
you can use it for divination.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (17:24):
Yes, of course, but it's old Celtic
name translates to wizardstrees.
So that's fun.
So what does this thing looklike?
Have either of you ever seen arowing tree?
Probably not.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (17:40):
but I'm about to look it up.
I, I've probably seen it, but Icouldn't, I can only identify
like three trees off the dome.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (17:47):
Well,

was gonna say it has like a lot of
branches, right.

Cute.

of it's a tree.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (17:53):
well, I don't believe that they're
commonly found in North America,so that's why I'm like, you
probably haven't seen it.

Gorge

I Google, Rowan, and just like, a
bunch of fairy men popped up.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (18:08):
Oh yeah.
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

like a character in,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (18:12):
I would definitely believe it's a
fantasy romance name.

Oh, throne of glass?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (18:17):
Yeah.
it is.
Okay, so it is from the rosaceafamily.
Did I say that correct?

Hmm.

Uh, rose, rosacea.
Rosacea.
It's not rosacea.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (18:29):
a skin

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (18:30):
Uh, no.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (18:32):
I know that one.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (18:34):
Anyway, so it's from the Rose family,

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (18:38):
um, and even though it's called
mountain Ash, it's not a properash tree.
It just holds similar.
It just kind of looks similar toan ash tree, but it
biologically, scientifically isnot related.
it's overall shape and size.
It's usually a small to mediumsized tree.
I saw some sources.

(19:02):
I saw some sources say that evensometimes it could be

Talk about the bane of witches.
Am I right this fucking guy?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (19:09):
dude.

You think mouth fell out of a
coconut rowing tree?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (19:14):
Oh my

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (19:14):
You exist in the context of
everything around you.

papa-skye_1_04-27-202 (19:20):
Sometimes it can be a shrub.
That's all I'm trying to say.
Sometimes it can

As in like really small.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (19:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, but it can typically reachheights to about 15 to 30 feet,
sometimes a bit taller.
Um, it tends to have a gracefulupright shape with an open
rounded crown.
it's not a massive spreadingtree, so it's just kind of like
a little

It's got thin branches.

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (19:47):
The bark is generally smooth and
silvery gray, especially whenthe tree is young.
As it gets older, the bark canbecome a bit more texture,
developing some cracks orslightly scaly patches.
You might notice horizontallines on the bark called lenti
cells, which are like breathingpores for the tree.

Oh.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (20:10):
Yeah.
The scars remind us that thepast is real.
Editor.
Cut that.

We'll see.
We'll see how I'm feeling thatday.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (20:21):
Uh, the leaves are compound, meaning
each leaf is actually made up ofseveral smaller leaflets
arranged along a central stem.
These leaflets are usually ovalshaped with toothed edges, and
they're usually nine to 15 ofthem per leaf.
The overall leaf structure looksa bit like a feather in the
spring and summer.
The leaves are a dark green, butthey put on a lovely show in the

(20:44):
fall turning vibrant shades oforange and red before dropping.

mm-hmm.

Gorgeous.

Yeah, I can't really think of any
North American trees with leaveslike that.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (20:54):
I don't know.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (20:56):
I could quickly pull out my field
guide to identifying NorthAmerican trees,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (21:02):
Yeah, sort of fern like, you know,
like little, and it's flowers.
In late spring or early summerafter the leaves have emerged,
the Rowan produces clusters ofsmall creamy white flowers.
These flower clusters are oftenquite noticeable and sometimes
have a slightly strong scent.
So they're kind of like, um, isit Hydrea that I'm thinking of

(21:25):
where they like clump together?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (21:27):
The big, the big

Oh, those are so pretty.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (21:31):
Yeah.
They're not quite as big as

like hydrangeas.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (21:34):
but they're, but they do clump
together like that.

What do they

pink ones too.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (21:40):
I have not smelled the flowers.
Um,'cause when I getting aheadof myself a little bit, they are
in Scotland and when I wentthere they were berries.
And getting into the berriesafter the flowers are, what's
the word I'm looking for?

deep-sea-peepee--sh (21:58):
Impregnated

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (21:59):
yes.
After the flowers areimpregnated,

or bread.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (22:04):
yeah, they bloom their little fruits,
the little identifiable berries.
So this is probably the mostrecognizable feature of the
Rowan in late summer and fall.
It produces large showy clustersof bright red, orange, red
berries.
These berries are small andround and can be quite abundant,
creating a beautiful splash ofcolor.

(22:27):
while, they're vital food sourcefor many birds.
They have a bitter taste and aregenerally not eaten raw by
humans in large quantities.
However, they are more palatableafter being cooked and are
sometimes used to make jams andjellies.
Overall.
Picture a relatively small,elegant tree with smooth grayish
bark Feathery leaves that turnbrilliant colors in autumn

(22:50):
clusters of white flowers inlate spring, and striking
bunches of orange red berries inthe fall.
It's a tree that truly offersbeauty throughout the seasons.

it's a very dynamic, like depending
on what point of the year yousee it, it could look completely
different.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (23:05):
Mm-hmm.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (23:07):
I do love the descriptors of this
tree of like, oh, the elegance.
Oh, the beautiful show.
It's putting on through theseasons.
It's a demure.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (23:18):
I just love this tree, so I felt
that I needed to do it justice.

The berry clusters are so big from a
distance, it looks like an appletree.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (23:26):
Yeah.

I

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (23:27):
So if you would like to see this
tree, this beautiful, elegant,gorgeous tree, where would you
go looking for them?
So they are native throughoutthe cool temperate regions of
the Northern Hemisphere.
And like I said earlier, they'rereally abundant in the wild,
especially in the highlands ofScotland.
They love just like a cold highaltitude place.

(23:52):
But like I hinted at before,they also have deep roots in
magic.
Ooh,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (23:59):
are they the bane of witches?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (24:02):
so the Rowan tree has a deep and
enduring association with magic,particularly in Celtic and Norse
traditions.
This connection stems from avariety of its characteristics
and the roles it played inancient beliefs.
So protection against witchcraftand evil.

(24:22):
Protection.
Protection, protection,protection is its primary thing
that it's known for magically.
Uh, and this is widely believedthat Rowan possessed potent
protective powers againstwitchcraft, evil spirits, and
negative enchantments.
So we gotta talk about theseberries, these red berries, and

(24:45):
its pentagram that it bears.
the bright red color of theberries was significant as red
was often seen as a powerfuldeterrent against malevolent
forces.
The small five pointed star, anatural pentagram founded the
blossom end of each berry was anancient symbol of protection.

(25:06):
And this natural occurrencereinforced the tree's protective
reputation.
So kind of like a blueberry,like you know, when you look at
a blueberry, it's got like thatlittle burst

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (25:16):
of the berry.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (25:18):
Yeah.
It's got a natural little fivepointed star.
If you pluck the berry off thetree.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (25:23):
I love it when fruit and nature
just makes shapes like that.
I am so delighted.
Why?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (25:28):
Like the apple.
When I covered the apple, theapple does that as well with the
seeds if you cut it in half.
But also we have Rowan woodcharms.
So people would craft amuletscrosses and other protective
charms from Rowan wood.
These were often bound with redthread four added potency and

(25:49):
hung above doorways in barns toprotect livestock and carried
for personal safety.
Uh, there is an old rhyme thatillustrates this belief.
and in order to do the rhyme, Ihave to say it how they would've
said it, not how we would say ittoday.
A Rowan tree and red three makethe witches tying their speed

(26:10):
and time means lose.
So it's basically saying.
I'm using the wood of the Rowantree in this red thread.
Keep me safe from witches.

Halt.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (26:19):
Slow them down from their

off.

I love the image that you just
like hold up an amulet and allof a sudden the witch is just
like running in slow motion.
It's like trying to get to you.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (26:32):
Um, and people would often plant
Rowan near their homes.
It was common practice to plantRowan trees near houses to
safeguard the inhabitants frombad luck and evil influences.
In some regions, it was evenconsidered taboo to cut down a
Rowan tree unnecessarily as thiscould bring misfortune.
And I saw many sources sayspecifically in Scotland, it was

(26:57):
a no-no to cut down a RowanThere's also protection in
sacred spaces.
Rowans were often found growingnear stone circles and ancient
burial sites suggesting theirrole in protecting these
spiritually significantlocations and the spirits of the
dead, and they have a connectionto the other world in
divination.

(27:18):
The Rowan was also seen as alink between the mundane world
and the other world.
Okay.
it was seen as a portal tree.
In some neopagan traditions, theRowan is considered a portal
tree, an opening or thresholdbetween worlds facilitating
journeys and transitions.
So it's sort of like, you knowhow sometimes you just see a
tree and you're like, that's afucking portal.

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (27:40):
Like sometimes they arch over each
other.
Yeah.
So they saw the Rowan tree andthey were like, oh, if I like go
over there, I'm gonna betransported.

Sucked into the other world.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (27:51):
I'm gonna get sucked by that tree.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (27:54):
Yeah.
As far as divination andinspiration goes, the wood of
the Rowan was sometimes used tocarve ruins for divination.
Ancient bards in Celtictraditions considered the Rowan,
the tree of Bards believing.
It brought the gift ofinspiration and poetic ability,
and it is known as a fairy treedue to its delicate white

(28:16):
flowers and vibrant berries.
The Rowan was often associatedwith fairies.
It was believed that planting aRowan near your home could bring
the blessings and protection ofthe Faye.
So it's got quite a lot goingfor it if I do say so myself.
I just love this guy.

Yeah.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (28:33):
It's just a good guy to have around.

It's just a cute old guy.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (28:37):
Yeah.
So now getting into some Norsemythology just a little bit.
Th Thor's Salvation.
It was known to save Thor.
Uh, one legend tells of how theGod Thor saved himself from a
raging river in the underworldby grabbing onto a Rowan tree
that bent over the water.

(28:58):
Because of this, the Rowan wasknown as Thor's salvation.
Um, there's also some mythssuggest that the first woman was
created from the Rowan treehighlighting its role in the
creation of life.
And like I said, previously,ruin carving.
Rowan Wood was the prescribedmaterial for carving ruin
stones, which were believed topossess magical properties for

(29:19):
divination and protection.
So, in essence, the Rowantree's, physical characteristics
combined with its ability tothrive in seemingly inhospitable
places, likely contributed toits aura of resilience and
magical power in the eyes of theancient peoples.
Its vibrant berries, the naturalpentagram on them, and its
association with both protectionand the mystical realms have

(29:43):
cemented its place in folkloreand magical traditions.

Good question.
So if it's, if it was used formaking grooms or, um, like
people use the wood for otherpurposes, but they couldn't cut
the trees down, how were theygetting

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (30:03):
they had to acquire it naturally
through fallen branches.

Mm-hmm.

okay.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (30:10):
Yeah.
So typically that's how theywould get the wood, um, or if
they, so they couldn't cut thetree down, but if there was like
a big branch that was, You knowhow sometimes people will just
like have large sections of abranch?
Yeah.
Like pruning.
Yeah.
So cutting the entire tree downwas a no-no, but taking some

(30:32):
wood, um, you know, asking ifyou can have, like, you know,
asking the Rowan if you canobtain the wood or just finding
fallen branches organically wasthe, the best way.
Um, and it's also, it saidcutting the Rowan down
unnecessarily if it wasnecessary, I suppose, you know,
that's one way.

(30:52):
Trees also just fall sometimes.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (30:56):
So, I mean, there were ways to
obtain the wood in a respectfuland thoughtful way.
Any other questions?

your comment about the tree, maybe
being from like where the firstwoman came from, coupled with
the flowers being like so whiteand lush, and then turning into
those bright red clusters ofberries really reminded me of
like the Garden of Eden and Evelosing innocence and whatnot.

(31:28):
Corruption, maturation, maybelike discovering sexuality.
Um, that's

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (31:34):
your period and like going from Yeah,
yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Going

coming into your own.

mother.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (31:44):
Just becoming a woman.
Yeah.
I just love it.
And when I was in Scotland, theywere all over the place.
We were driving down the, theroads, we were driving through
the Highlands and I would seethem all over the place and I
just, I felt very drawn to themand I just loved to see'em.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (32:02):
Did you have any Rowan berries?
Did you have any samewavelength?

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (32:08):
What do you mean?

Like, Did you ha, did

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (32:11):
did you

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (32:11):
No?
No.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (32:13):
Oh, boo.

papa-skye_1_04-27-20 (32:14):
Apparently they don't taste very good
apparently, even in the jamform, like, it's like kind of

mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (32:20):
but Yeah.
Like you don't really eat the,the, strawberries, but they're
more palatable cooked, but evenstill, like, they're not like a
delicious fruit to

So it's like a survival thing.

type of thing.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (32:33):
Yeah.
I did read, um, a fantasy book.
I wanna say it was the Fair Isletrilogy, where they used Rowan
berries in that book asprotection.
They would like bead the bear,like dry the berries and bead
them into like a little necklaceor bracelet as a protection.
From the Faye in that

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (32:57):
So I'm familiar a little bit with
the Rowans history with magicthrough, through fantasy
fiction, romance novels.

Hey, inspiration comes from many
places.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (33:10):
yeah.
So, yeah, that's, that's all Igot under Rowan.

tummy-ache-jones_1_ (33:15):
Delightful.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (33:16):
The, uh, what did I call, what was
it, what was its nickname that Ireally, the witch wagon tree?

Yeah.
What does wiggin mean in like,Celtic vernacular?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (33:27):
I don't know.
That's a, that's a greatquestion.
I just really liked the namethat I didn't,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (33:33):
I,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1 (33:34):
Wiggin is an uneasy feeling or a sense
of foreboding.
Badness,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (33:40):
I see.
Okay.

so it gives the witches anxiety so
they stay inside.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (33:47):
Mm-hmm.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (33:48):
I mean, that's pretty effective
protection where they're just

deep-sea-peepee--she (33:51):
Especially for

vibes.
Yeah.
I don't like that.

anxiety.
Runs deep in the witchcommunity.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (33:59):
Well, I'm gonna hand a little Rowan
branch over to River now.

Is it

branch for me.
Is there SAP on it?
Is it gonna get sticky?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (34:11):
I don't think it has sap,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (34:13):
Oh.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (34:14):
but during the time of year that
we're recording, I think thatthe flowers are in bloom'cause
it's springtime and the berriesprobably haven't quite emerged
yet.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (34:25):
Oh,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (34:26):
a flowering branch.
'cause I, it seems like youmight need a beautiful,

Little bouquet.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (34:32):
a beautiful little And I tuck it
behind my ear.

Hold on.
That might make them slow downthough.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (34:39):
Mm.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (34:40):
I start having a seizure.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (34:42):
You are a witch after all.
Yeah.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (34:44):
I am a witch after all.
And speaking of witches andanxiety is poppy so beautifully.
Set up this little transitionfor me.
What's up everybody?
I'm about to bring the mooddown.

Woo woo.

Woo.
It's

This is like medicine.
It's like a little,

Yeah.
You get a, a yucky little Rowanberry and then I give you a hard
truth, you know, something realsour.
For something even more sour, SoI get to talk about, uh,
something that's been prettypertinent to me.

(35:25):
I would say for like the lastmonth or so.
This is not gonna be like superinformative.
I'm not going into likestatistics or like research per
se.
I did do reading about it.
But I'm not, this isn't likeprofessional medical advice, if

(35:46):
you will.
This is just me yapping to myfriends, and right now I'm going
through sort of like on thewhole holistically, it's not
just spiritual, but I'm goingthrough like a little bit of a
burnout in all areas of my liferight now.
Past month has been a little bitcrazy for me.

(36:07):
Really great things havehappened.
Really shitty things havehappened, and I am just very
exhausted by them, and thereforemy spiritual practice has taken
a hit.
Raise your hand if you'resurprise, surprise.
surprise.
When things aren't going well,things start falling apart, but

(36:32):
it's fine because everythingebbs and flows.
And this is not, I'm not thefirst person to experience this.
This is not the first time thishas happened.
This will not be the last timethis has happened in my life.
So what is spiritual burnoutslash fear?
Spiritual fatigue.
Because they're used, they'renot exactly the same thing.

(36:55):
And there's also like spiritualanxiety where like the Venn
diagrams are overlapping, butit's not, it's not a full circle
quite yet.
And a lot of the reading that Idid predominantly is talking
about spiritual fatigue andburnout through a predominantly

(37:18):
Christian lens because itaffects a lot of people that
like work in churches and thatkind of work because it's very,

Mm-hmm.

what's the word?
How you say?
It's very involved and it can bevery, it's very saturated and
there is that expectation to beconstantly available and like
constantly be like a spiritualmentor to those in, like need

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (37:42):
Yeah, they're at a heightened state
all the time.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (37:44):
all of the time.
And there's very little time forrest.
It's actually like a really bigproblem in

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (37:49):
Even on the day of rest, that's the
day that they're supposed to beat their most heightened.

Yeah.
It's, it's just exhausting.
But even if you're notChristian, if you have any kind
of spiritual practice, spiritualburnout and fatigue can find
you.
That's just the way it goes.
So a lot of like the keydefining negative thoughts that

(38:14):
accompany spiritual burnout andfatigue tend to relate to, am I
doing enough, I need to be doingmore.
Am I making my life and my timecount for my spiritual,
spiritual practice slash Godlook at everybody else doing
better and more than me, thanlike what I am doing.

(38:35):
A lot of comparison, which isthe root of all suffering.
But we all know that by now.
I hope.
Um, and unfortunately a lot ofthis, at least in my opinion,
which I feel is the correctopinion, but that's just'cause
I'm a Taurus and I think I'malways right.
A lot of it there seems to be abig correlation and overlap

(38:59):
between and really any kind ofburnout and the productivity
slash grind set culture.
We are especially now these daysliving in where like your worth
is defined by how muchproductivity you are outputting
and how much you are doing.
And you work 37 hours a day andyou sleep for 45 minutes and

(39:24):
every single second of your dayis optimized so that you can be
doing as much as you possiblycan.
And that is exhausting.
It's so tiring.
So there's very little time forrest.
You're trying to quote unquote,keep up so you don't fall
behind.
And just a little like tangentside note, because it pisses me

(39:45):
off when I think about it indepth and it's like keeping up
with who falling behind who itis not a race.
Everybody's path is unique totheir own circumstances and
nobody's living my life and I'mnot living anybody else's life.
So who is this mystery personI'm trying to keep up with?

(40:06):
Because it seems like everybodyelse is also keeping up with
them.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (40:09):
The idealized version of yourself.

Yeah, it's really like the Instagram
influencers who are likecurating certain aspects of
their life without showing youlike the realities of it all.
You know how it goes, but thatjust pisses me off when I think
about it too much.
So if you take nothing else awayfrom this, stop comparing

(40:32):
yourself to other people.
Um, at least in my experience,There is sort of like a
universal connecting thread andtheme of spiritual burnout.
But everybody can alsoexperience it differently.
Some people experience it moreseverely and deeply than other
people.

(40:52):
Also, depending on like whatyour practice is and if you are
like in involved in a communityor involved in a church where
like you have a lot ofresponsibilities and demands and
it's not just like you and yourtwo friends in a coven like PP
poo-pooing for the most.
Like if I was in a church aslike an active working member, I

(41:12):
would be freaking out all thetime.
'cause that's

The pressure.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (41:19):
The pressure to just constantly like
be on and be at your best whenlike spirituality ebbs and
flows.
And even like priests will belike, yes, sometimes I feel more
disconnected from God and likefrom everything.
And that's, that's just how itgoes.

we're just humans.
Right.

Yeah.
And things just like pop up andlife gets really stressful
sometimes and really busy.
And yeah, I'll get into that alittle bit later.
But at its core.
Even though everyone canexperience certain different

(41:57):
things about it, spiritualfatigue or burnout is when
rather than feeling fulfilled byyour practice, you start feeling
drained or overwhelmed by it.
And it also seemed, at leastfrom what I had read, it was
mostly coming from a lot of likeChristian websites.
So take that with a grain ofsalt.

(42:18):
But it seemed like a lot of thesymptoms of spiritual burnout
also coincide with symptoms oflike, depression.
So like the apathy, not feelingfulfillment or joy from things
that used to bring you joy.
changes in sleep and appetiteand physical fatigue, symptoms

(42:38):
like that.
Which I think it makes sensefrom like a holistic perspective
where like, yeah, if your lifeis really stressful and
everything is sort of taking ahit, like yeah, you're not gonna
be sleeping super well.
Your appetite's gonna change,you're gonna be really tired.
So just keep that in mind.

(42:59):
Just always be on the lookout,you know?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1 (43:02):
That's like the whole body's thing that
we've talked about before, abouthow like the physical body, the
emotional body and the

yeah.
The

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (43:09):
like all directly impact each other.
Yeah.

Guess what?
They're all connected.
they all need work.
They all need help,

papa-skye_1_04-2 (43:17):
Unfortunately.
Yeah.

tummy-ache-jones (43:18):
unfortunately.
And I.
I also tend to focus on like thephysical body and like the
material body.
I, if I'm being real, if I'mbeing really honest, I still
don't do a very good job ofthat.
So like my spiritual body, myemotional body, like you can
only imagine how much I neglectthem.
Sometimes I'm not even takingcare of the vessel that much.

I think a lot of people try to
make up for, um, like not beingas strong in one area by really
hyper fixating on, on anotherarea.
Like using, um, I don't know,using the physical body, for
example, to distract you fromthe emotional bodies

(44:05):
specifically.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (44:07):
I do, especially when I think
about like Gym Bros a lot, wherethey're like, this is my church,
this is my therapy.
And I'm like, no, you're doing50 pushups.
When was the last time youcried?
Quickly.
But that's okay.
Everybody's, Hey, they'll figureit out.
I hope.
I wish'em well.
I was also just like stream ofconsciousness, like typing out

(44:29):
my notes for the most part.
And now I'm, I'm just like goingout of order regurgitating them.
So I'm like, what the fuck?
Haven't I said yet?

Well, this one's supposed to be a
little like lower.

That's true.
Lower, not lower effort, lowerenergy for sure, because I do
not have much energy right now,but that's okay.
So now that we know whatspiritual fatigue is, now that
we have the baseline of likerecognizing it, if it befalls
us, how are we gonna combatthis?

(45:03):
'cause it sucks.
How are we gonna get rid of thisvile thing that's fallen on us?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (45:09):
Not ignoring it.
I'm gonna assume that

Step one.
Yeah.
You gotta recognize it and yougotta

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (45:17):
that you

that it's here.
The first step of combating yourproblem is admitting there's a
problem.
Yeah.
Yep.
And it's not fun and it feelsbad.
And I know it can feel likeweakness and giving up and
you're, you wanna push throughand you're like, there's nothing
wrong with me.
I'm actually so strong and braveand tough and fine.

(45:39):
No, you're not me

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (45:40):
I don't appreciate you mocking me.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (45:44):
I'm holding up like one of those
little, like angled mirrors toall three of us.
So we're all in the

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (45:50):
It's 'cause we're also big and strong
and brave and

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (45:54):
I'm big and strong and tough and
nothing, uh, nothing bad hasever happened to me and I can do
anything I put my mind to,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (46:01):
Yeah.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (46:03):
but

I didn't even realize that I was
burnt out until you brought upthat you were gonna do this
topic.
And because of that, because Ibecame a little bit more aware,
I just lit a candle last night.

Yeah.

That's all I

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (46:21):
I haven't done that in, I have,
well, that's not true.
I did light my Saint Candles afew days ago.
'cause I was like, I, I need myallies.
I need you guys to give me somefucking juice.
I haven't done a proper spellingmonths.
I

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (46:35):
We're all burnt out right now.

Yeah.
We're just all burnt out and

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (46:39):
I still really haven't picked
myself up since I moved in.
It's been, well, actually theother night I left out a little
wine offering for the Morgan,

Love

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (46:49):
as like a peace of love.
Thank you so much for

still here?
Still rocking?

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (46:55):
yeah, there was, I wasn't asking for
anything.
I was just kind of like, Hey,I'm just kind of giving you a
little gratitude, a little kisson the forehead right now.
Thank you for bearing with me.
Yeah,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (47:06):
And you gotta start slow because
pushing through it and ignoringit makes it what?
Say it with me now.
Worse.
That's right.
That's fucking right.
So that's step one.
Uh, next crucial step fromrecovering from burnout sucks.
And nobody likes to do it.

(47:27):
We gotta rest.
We gotta take it easy.
We gotta reprioritize what wecan feasibly do with our energy
and our time.
I hate doing it.
I go into burnout, kicking andscreaming every single time,
even though I've been burnt outso many times in my life.

(47:47):
You'd think I'd be better at itat this point, I'm not.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (47:51):
I will say that I fall into the
trap actually of resting toomuch.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (47:57):
Mm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (47:57):
I like when I get burnt out, I
overdo it on the rest.
I oversleep.
I take naps a lot.
And I don't know if that maybeis just like my flavor of
depression and neurodivergencyand my physical body, but it's
like a weird, I need to rest,but I'm sleeping and resting too

(48:19):
much, but I'm not feelingrested, like I'm just tired and
fatigued all the time.
And it's like no matter how muchsleep I get, I just don't feel
better.

yeah.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (48:29):
Help me with that.
What do I do about that river?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (48:32):
I'm not a fucking doctor.
Don't at me.
And

some cases it,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (48:38):
go ahead, please, please.

just gonna say in some cases, like
nobody wants to hear it, butexercise and fresh air and
sunshine actually do make youfeel better and do give you

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (48:50):
to find that like thin razor's edge
between like rest and effortwhere you're not pushing
yourself too hard, pushingyourself past your limits
consistently.
And you're not hard.
180 bed rotting.
There is that beautiful middleground.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (49:07):
yeah, sometimes it is like, Hey,
girly, like you're sleeping.
Sure, but you're not goingoutside and you're not taking
your iron pill.

Yeah.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (49:17):
are iron deficient and not getting

sleeping in a sunbeam.

No.
Or it's like you're resting,but, or you think you're
resting, but really you arelaying down, scrolling on your
phone.
Yeah.
And it's not real rest.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (49:30):
I.

Yeah.
So quality rest is what we'retalking about.
We're not talking about, I'mgonna, I'm gonna veg out and
watch shitty reality TV foreight hours because that's what
I need.
It's not what you need, I'msorry to say it.
It's not what you need.
It's gonna make you feel worse.
Probably.
How do we combat?
We're going back to the verybase of the hierarchy of needs

(49:54):
period, uh, pyramid.
And we are working our way backup.
We are taking as muchresponsibility off of our plates
as we feasibly can.
If it's irrelevant, if it's noturgent, it's not necessary,
revisit it later.
We're doing truly just likesurvival needs.

(50:15):
And then when you start and ittakes a long fucking time, which
is the worst part and the mostannoying part for me personally.
It's not just, I got one goodnight of sleep and now I'm
fucking back baby.
It's, no, it takes weeks, if notmonths sometimes to like
recover.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (50:33):
You gotta treat yourself like a
little toddler.

'cause it took weeks if not months, for
you to get here.
So you gotta do as much to feelokay.
And every time I'm really madand I'm really cranky and no, it
always helps me feel better.
A nap,

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (50:49):
a snack, and a nap.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (50:50):
a snack, and a nap.
And I wake up going, that was socrazy.
Why was I like that 45 minutesago?
Who was that?
That was weird to, so yeah, wegot a step one and two stop,
recognize, and then we got restand recover.
And I know it sucks.

(51:13):
And when you're in burnout, anyamount of effort, it feels
insurmountable.
And you do just wanna bed rotand you just wanna fucking like
do nothing.
I'm currently in that stageright now where I'd wanna do
absolutely fucking nothing.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (51:26):
it's cause there's no motivation.
You know what I mean?
You don't have any motivation todo

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (51:31):
I wrote up these notes yesterday
because I was like, I don'twanna fuck, I don't even want,
I'm in burnout.
I don't wanna write aboutburnout right now.
I'm living it.
And then I was like, oh, I haveto,'cause I have one day to do
this Now there's urgency to it.

The procrastination trap.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (51:48):
it sucks, dude.
Being neurodivergent sucks.
Anyway, where was I?
Yeah, the effort is hardreprioritizing how we're
spending, what precious littleenergy we have.
Also, I know this is anotherannoy, a lot of these points of
recovery from burnout are likefucking annoying and cliche and

(52:10):
you hear it all the time, butlike, you have to eat good
nourishing food.
I'm sorry to say it.
I know DoorDash is so accessibleand it's so easy and hey, hey,
I'm gonna hold your hand when Isay this.
I've been there when I was inthe thick of like a bad burnout
like four years ago in thepandemic, no less.

(52:32):
I was door dashing at least oncea day.
Because it was so easy and soconvenient and I literally could
not figure out how to feedmyself on my own.
So I had to use DoorDash to eat.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (52:44):
To give yourself some credit and
other people who also fall intothis.
I will say I like do what youcan.
Like if you can't feed yourselfunless you order DoorDash.
Yeah.
I'd rather Your fed is best asmoms

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (52:59):
is best.
Yeah, like you do need to

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (53:03):
Yeah.

It's, it's also more like when you
start recovering a little bit ofenergy and you're like, I can, I
have more energy to make maybevery simple dishes.
They don't have to be superinvolved, but like you, it sucks
and it's so annoying and it'slike those like, oh, go on a
walk.
Mental health talks.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (53:25):
A big part of recovering from
burnout, I find is when you arefaced with choices.
It's better for you to make themore difficult choice, and
that's sort of the path ofrecovery itself, is actively
making the choice to do the moredifficult thing versus the
easier thing that will keep youin

Mm-hmm.
Gotta build the muscles back up.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (53:50):
You have to build that tolerance and
show yourself, oh, I actuallycan't do this.
It doesn't have to be every day.
But every now and then, like,oh, I can do hard things.
It's actually okay.
And I feel more accomplished nowthat I have done a more
difficult thing.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (54:05):
Mm-hmm.
Making the choice to say, Iactually have something in my
fridge that I could make, asopposed to ordering DoorDash.
Like that could be the smallchoice of, Even.
if it's just something easy to

Yeah, like a peanut butter and jelly
sandwich.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (54:21):
Yeah.

Something so easy, so simple

As someone who has a really hard
time eating fruits andvegetables.
Especially when I am in theshits bag of baby carrots.

Yep.

That's it.

Whatever you like and is easy for you, do
that.
You don't have to explainyourself to anybody.
You just have to take care ofyourself.
Really, truly.
the next, the next most crucialstep, arguably the most
important step.
Uh, you gotta give yourselfgrace as you're recovering and

(54:58):
trying to get that energy backup.
Because beating yourself up overfeeling like you're not doing
enough will make it.
What?
Say it with me now.
Worse.
That's right.
Your spiritual practice is stillgonna be there.
You're not abandoning it.
It's not, it's not mad at you.
You're not in trouble.
It's still gonna be there.

(55:19):
You know, just'cause you need totake a break does not mean
you're not a witch anymore.
I promise.
Uh, in my own experience, many atime whenever I go through
cycles of burnout,'cause ithappens many times per year.
Uh, my spiritual allies and DionISIS are like begging me,

(55:40):
grabbing me by the shoulders,telling me to like take a break
and stop and that I'm doing toomuch and that I need to be
resting.
And I'm like, that's crazy'causeI'm not doing anything so I need
to be doing more.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (55:52):
yeah, whenever I've gone through it,
and then when I get back up onmy feet and I do like a little
reading check in to be like,Hey, I'm sorry you mad at me
every single time.
They're like, absolutely not.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (56:05):
no, absolutely not.
You actually needed to be doingthat.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (56:09):
Yeah.
They're like, Welcome back.
Yeah.

Yeah.
So happy You're still here.
So happy you're taking time foryourself.
And then they, sometimes I canonly speak to my own personal
experience.
I get a little like flick on theforehead'cause it's like, you
fucking dummy.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (56:23):
Mm-hmm.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (56:24):
at you.
Shut up.
But that's just me'cause I get alot of tough love, which is what
I need a lot of time.
It's witchcraft is supposed tobe fulfilling and sustainable
and that looks different foreverybody, especially with like
chronic conditions andneurodivergence and chronic
illness and just like what istangibly going on in your life

(56:48):
and like the things you aregoing through.
I said it before, I'll say itagain until I die.
Very autistic, I have a very lowcapacity for being overwhelmed.
My threshold is not very high.
I go into burnout super easilyand that it does make me feel
bad and like I'm not doingenough a lot of the time because

(57:11):
I, again, with the Instagraminfluencers, even in like the
witchcraft community, it's likethey're doing big, you're seeing
that they're doing big spellsall the time and all these like
big workings and you're like, Ihaven't even lit a fucking
candle in weeks.
I'm not a witch.
I'm not doing jack shit.
And it's like, no, that's just adifferent person living a

(57:32):
different life than you.
It's actually fine.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (57:36):
I feel like, I mean, I obviously
can't speak for everybody, but Ifeel like being just like a
quote unquote normal person,like I like being a witch is not
my job.
I don't get paid for it.
I don't have people reaching outto me for help or anything like
that.
I don't need to be doing spellsall the time.
Like there's no, there's no needfor it.

(57:57):
Like, I don't know, like Ishouldn't feel bad about not
doing spells all the timebecause like, what am I doing a
spell for?

Yeah.
Just to do it without like areason.
yeah.
Which is not, it's again, thatproductivity grind set culture
of like, go.

Have to create, have to

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (58:15):
to create, have to be doing
something to like prove that Ideserve to be here.
At least in my experience.
So what's, what's little OldRiver doing to combat spiritual
fatigue personally?
What the fuck am I up to?

Tell us, Tell us, all about

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (58:32):
plan?
It's day one.
I guess.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (58:35):
I I've been lightly trying for the
past, truthfully, the past liketwo or three weeks to try to,
first two weeks was justrecognizing I'm in spiritual
burnout.
Third week was just accepting itand now I'm in the, okay, now we
need to do something about thisphase.
I am trying and not doing supergood at getting like quality

(59:01):
sleep, as you guys know, I didfall asleep on my couch last
night after work for severalhours wearing my work clothes.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1 (59:10):
That's when you know you need it
though, when you justimmediately

exhausted, dude.
I

You wake up with a, what year is it?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (59:17):
I, all the lights in my apartment
were on.
It was five in the morning andI'm in my work clothes and I'm
like, what happened to

oh yeah.
I saw that message in the groupchat at 5:00 AM.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (59:28):
I woke up and I was like, God damn
it, I've done it again.
So I need sleep is truly, again,it's so annoying to say, but
like sleep really is thebuilding block that everything
else can get built on.
It's the foundation.
So that's step one.
Step two, which I usually ampretty okay with, is like eating

(59:49):
well, eating quality foodbecause I have a fucked up
little stomach.
I have terrible IBS, so I haveto be pretty careful about the
things I eat and make goodchoices.
Haven't had an impossiblewhopper from Burger King in
quite some time and it's beenvery good for me.
But the urge is always there.

(01:00:10):
It's always in the back of myhead barking like a dog.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:00:14):
I've been getting Taco Bell after
work too

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:00:16):
I know.
I didn't wanna say it.
I didn't want to bring that

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:00:21):
No, I'm, I'm kind of at a phase
where, you know, when you'rekind of at a burnout and you
just like accept your fate andyou're just like, well, I'm in
the shits, so we might as welldrive this bitch into the
ground.
Yeah,

deep-sea-peepee--she-her-_ (01:00:34):
That black and white thinking.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:00:36):
I know.
It sucks, dude.

deep-sea-peepee--she-her-_1_ (01:00:39):
If I'm not perfect, why try?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:00:42):
If I'm not perfect, I need to be
the absolute worst version ofmyself and just self-destruct,
which is not, Hey, thatbeautiful razor's edge, middle
ground exists.
And I, I want you to find itwith us.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (01:00:56):
I do have a question.
What, how are you.
Getting better sleep.
What does that look like foryou?
What are some steps that you'retaking to try to do better?
Sleep?

tummy-ache-jones_1_ (01:01:05):
Truthfully, it's not playing the fun little
game I like to play with myselfwhere I lay down on my couch and
I close my eyes and I tellmyself I'm not falling asleep
here.
I'm just being very comfortable.
I'm just resting for a momentbefore I get up and I get ready
for bed and I go sleep in mybed.
I need to stop playing that gamewith myself'cause I lose every
time.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:01:26):
Now, what is wrong with sleeping on
your couch?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:01:29):
Um, just the comfort of it.
It's more comfortable for me tobe in my bed.
I also don't do my little sleeproutine when I'm not, quote
unquote falling asleep on mycouch.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:01:44):
well, I'm just, wondering if you could
do your sleep routine right awayand then if you end up falling
asleep on the couch, like

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:01:51):
if I did the sleep routine, I would
feel less bad about fallingasleep on my couch.
But it's waking up with an oilyface and unbred teeth wearing
the clothes I wore all day atwork where I'm like, I can't
keep doing this.
I

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (01:02:04):
a

deep-sea-peepee--she-her-_1 (01:02:04):
you at least take your glasses off?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04 (01:02:07):
Sometimes I do.

papa-skye_1_04-27-202 (01:02:09):
sometimes I do.

sometimes I do.
Not all the time.
'cause remember, I am notfalling asleep.
I'm just being comfortable.
That's what I tell myself.
I'm

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:02:20):
Was the TV on?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:02:22):
No, but I was watching a YouTube
video on my phone.
I

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:02:25):
Okay.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:02:26):
Yep.
And

deep-sea-peepee--she-her-_1_0 (01:02:27):
A really long,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:02:28):
time.
It's a 45 minute,

or, or whatever the fuck you're into

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:02:32):
was a a 45 minute YouTube video
about a very obscure video gamethat nobody's heard of.
Yeah.
So there, and it just lulls meto sleep.
But also getting back on myMichael Sealy sleep meditation
grind set.
Love Michael Sealy.
I owe him my life.

(01:02:53):
It's really just the sleephygiene I have to get so much
better at is step one.
I did spend, uh, some time innature a couple days ago at one
of my favorite natural spotsthat I like to go to.
That always replenishes me andnourishes me.
Spending time outside, not foreverybody, but for me

(01:03:15):
personally, it does make me feelvery good and very like
fulfilled and refreshed.
Uh, moving my body in gentleways that feel good doing little
stretches.
Haven't stretched in weeks, butthat's something I need to get
better at.
If I'm feeling up for it, maybeI'll pull one Oracle card on a

(01:03:37):
special occasion, just as like alittle daily, Hey, what do I
need to hear today?

deep-sea-peepee--she-he (01:03:41):
Mm-hmm.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:03:42):
What do I need to keep in mind today?
It's very low effort, spiritualpractices.
I'm not do, I'm not trying tojump back in headfirst in the
pool.
I'm like dipping my toes in.
Even my daily devotion to Dion,ISIS is spotty at best right
now, and that makes me feel bad.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1 (01:04:01):
What's that looking like?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:04:03):
it's so, I have, I made a little set
of prayer beads, and I say aprayer to Dionysus, and then I
go through each bead.
There's 34 beads with like anepithet of his takes.
Like 10 minutes does not takehardly any time at all.
And I'll still be like, I'll dothis later.
Like, oh, I have something elseI need to do.
Or like, oh, I'm stinky.

(01:04:24):
I need to take a shower.
Like now I have to do laundry.
And it just, it just falls bythe wayside.

deep-sea-peepee--she-her- (01:04:29):
Yeah.
And at a certain point itbecomes a chore

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:04:32):
yeah, it really does.
Your spiritual practice whenyou're in burnout, it feels more
like an obligation than like agift and something that you
enjoy doing, which sucks.

I've been trying to meditate and like
actively connect and I've justgotten the message back.
Um, you're forcing it, like stoptrying to force it.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:04:58):
Yeah.
You

Like you're just do, you're doing
this out of obligation rightnow, not because You're

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:05:03):
going through the motions of what you
think you need to be doing whenyou need to be doing something
completely different

Mm-hmm.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-2 (01:05:10):
happens to the best of us, brother, Also
as a fun little preview andhopefully as a way to like pull
myself out of spiritual burnoutby the little scruff of my neck,
like a kitten or a wet tissue.
We've got another SaintSpotlight episode coming up in
the future and reading about theSaints does help to inspire me

(01:05:35):
personally and sort of like getme back into like the groove of
being excited to like have myspiritual life be more active
and be more like involved in itand just seeing like the beauty
in the world around me.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2 (01:05:50):
Remembering that you can actually do things
that you like to

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:05:53):
Yeah.
Remembering that there is likejoy and beauty in whimsy in the
world if I know where to lookfor it and if I have eyes to
see.
Yeah,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:06:00):
and now that you're saying it,
you're giving yourself a littlebit of accountability.

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (01:06:06):
We love to see it.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:06:07):
am.
Yep.
So that's, that's what I'mdoing.
That's what I'm personallydoing, and just also trying to
over and over again, give myselfsome grace and compassion,
because beating myself up is notgonna make me feel any better.
It's actually just going to makethe situation worse.
And I have a cute little quotefrom, I think it was a blog post

(01:06:32):
called Spiritual Burnout,chronic Anxiety, and the Stress
of Making Your Life Count ForGod by Joe Terrell.
This is one of the Christiansources I was reading about
spiritual burnout.
It's a little bit like a mediumlength quote, I'll say it's not
terribly long, but Joe Terrellsays, you don't have to make

(01:06:53):
your life count for God.
You already count.
You already matter, you'realready loved.
And in a weird twist, it's thoseChristians who accept this truth
about their identity, who end upmaking a real difference in the
world around them, be it theirliving room, neighborhood,
boardroom, or some remotevillage overseas.
You cannot freely give what youbelieve you had to earn for

(01:07:15):
yourself.
Once you accept your worth toGod isn't dependent on what you
do for God, you're free to liveout the life God has uniquely
prepared for you and all of itsrich significance, humble,
gratitude, and meaningful duty.
The yoke is easy and the burdenis light.
So just have fun with it andfocus on your own path, brother.

Every breath you

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:07:38):
be fine.
Every breath you take, is agift, and that's truly all you
need to focus on.
So just have fun and be playfuland be easy on yourself.
That's all I got for you.
I'm, I'm grabbing your shouldersand I'm shaking you and I'm
saying it's okay.
It be easy on yourself.

I'm giving you a big old hug

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:07:59):
I'm giving you a big wet kiss on the
forehead when I say this.

deep-sea-peepee--she-h (01:08:04):
smacking you on the, on the butt with a
little

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:08:07):
Yeah.
Be easy on yourself.
Don't piss me off.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (01:08:12):
Mm-hmm.
Pick a switch from the Rowantree.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:08:15):
Yeah.
And I'll lightly brush itagainst your cheeks and say,
Hey, it's okay bud.
So that's, yeah, that's myspiritual burnout takes for you.

I feel a little lighter now.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:08:28):
Good.
Hey, I am glad it helpedanybody.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:08:33):
I'm giving you a big hug through the
computer screen.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:08:36):
Thank you.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:08:37):
Group hug.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:08:39):
group hug.
That's sweet.
Thanks for listening.
Also, just talking about it withlike, people in your community
or like if you have somebody youcould consider a spiritual
mentor, talk about yourfeelings.
Dude,

Mm-hmm.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:08:57):
it's really that simple and I know
everybody hates to hear it.
I hate to do it and I hate tohear it'cause I think I'm
different.
Talk about your feelings withyour friends.

And if you can't write it down,

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (01:09:10):
As a part of your community, I love
you.

I love you too.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:09:18):
Why would you say that to me in my
tender vulnerable state?
That's so fucked up of you.
Oh my God.
It really took me by surprise.

You just gotta marinate your, your
little heart a little bit.
Tenderize it.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:09:38):
I love you both very much.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:09:40):
This is just, this is like the get
real corner of this episode, so,and I'm not, I'm not afraid to
say it.
I'll look you in your eyes andsay, I love you, bitch.
will stop loving you, bitch.
And I've done it before.
I love telling my friends I lovethem.
I love throwing out and I loveyou.
I don't think it's meaninglessthe more you say it.
I think that you need to say itlike people just in general need

(01:10:03):
to say it more.

You never know who needs to hear it.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:10:07):
Yeah.
And it's not always romanticlove.
Like you can give love in somany

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:10:12):
no.
There is so much love in thisworld.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:10:15):
Yeah.
It's important to remind peoplelike you are important to me.
I have and hold love for you.
Are you gonna cry?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:10:24):
I might,

this,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:10:27):
I'm fine.
I'm cool.
It's my allergies.
It's fine.

nice little peanut butter marshmallow
fluff in the middle of ourepisode, sandwich

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:10:36):
Yeah.

and

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:10:37):
We talked about trees, we talked
about feelings, and Now we getto talk about whale fall.
Baby.

why am I so nervous?
Stop it.
Stop it.
Woo.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:10:51):
It's just whales.
Girl earl

I

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:10:53):
just wa, it's just dead whales, girl
and

I don't know why.
I think it's because I like,didn't really review my notes.
I just kind of like slapped himon the page.
So I have no idea what I'm aboutto say.
But we're gonna, we're gonna getthrough it.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:11:09):
I'm gonna find out together.

Whale Falls.
yeah, so this topic is reallyinteresting to me'cause it has
a, a lot of different thingsthat I'm interested in.
Life, death, rebirth.
Um, we've got some ecology.
We've got some super interestingbiodiversity tie-ins.

(01:11:33):
let's get into it.
Oh.
Also, sky was a whale girl

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (01:11:37):
I

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:11:37):
That's right.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (01:11:39):
in high school.
I was obsessed with whales, andI wrote many papers on citation
life,

Mm-hmm.
So you probably already knowmost of this

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:11:47):
and I have a whale key chain that
I've had since high school.

mm-hmm.
That our, our friend who is nowon Broadway gave you,

tummy-ache-jones_1 (01:11:55):
Fascinating.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:11:56):
Good for them.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:11:57):
Wow.

yeah.
Okay.
So when living things die, ourbodies are recycled back into
the ecosystem.
Um, we are eaten, our carbon isthen breathed out by animals
through carbon dioxide, or maybeit's peed out, you know, maybe

(01:12:21):
it gets incorporated into themuntil they die.
Uh, then the plants breathe themin.
They use that to grow.
They die return to the soil, andthey supply nutrients for other
things.
So this is the cycle of life wegive.
We take, and this doesn't evenconsider the roles that microbes
play, like tiny little bacteriaand whatnot that help to break

(01:12:42):
us down.
So there's a lot going on whenit comes to the exchange of, of
energy, um, and the recyclingthat goes into every ecosystem.
Whale Falls are reallyinteresting because they create
entire ecosystems just bythemselves.

(01:13:05):
Um, they create.
Like a giant, well, not a giant.
They create like a little oasisin the middle of the ocean floor
that's basically like theocean's equivalent of a desert,
So before we get into whales, wehave to talk about what the

(01:13:28):
bottom of the ocean is like,which is this, this is the part
that scares me.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:13:35):
I gotta shaver down my spine.

The ocean is scary.
So today we're gonna be talkingabout the batho logic and the
abyss logic zones, but I'll takeyou through all five zones of
the ocean really quick.
So up at the surface is theepilog zone.
It's light, there's sunlight,there's plants and algae.

(01:13:58):
It's warm.
Um, this is where the majorityof stuff lives.
Then deeper than that, about 600to 3,300 feet down, you have the
meso logic and it's gettingcolder as you go deeper.
near the bottom of the zone iswhere we start seeing

(01:14:19):
bioluminescence because there'sno sunlight or it's getting
darker.
Then we'll get to the pathologiczone, which is part of where
we'll be living today.
It's also known as the MidnightZone because it is pitch black,
constantly dark, and thetemperature is constant at about

(01:14:39):
39 degrees Fahrenheit.
So it's chilly.
Below that, you have the AbyssLogic, which is 13,000 to 20,000
feet.
So that's two and a half to fourmiles deep.
Horrifying.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:14:55):
I don't like that.

I don't like.
It's down there right now.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:14:59):
Oh, no, I don't like that.

Uh, so in the abyssal logic, the
temperature's just abovefreezing.
It's also completely dark.
Obviously no sunlight is gettingdown there.
Past the meso pgic, almost noorganisms exist.
And the name Abyss Logic comesfrom the term abyss, which comes

(01:15:25):
from the Greek abyss, meaningbottomless.
Uh, and they used that word totalk about the underworld a lot,
which is kind of where that tiein comes from.
There's very little oxygen.
most of the oxygen at this levelcomes from melting ice caps in
polar regions.
So like the water that's movingaround up near the surface

(01:15:47):
doesn't really circulate oxygendown to these depths.
And then underneath that, thedeepest.
Zone.
I know that's not even thedeepest.
This is below where

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:16:01):
the

falls are.
This is below the abyss.
It's called the Hale Pologic.
So this is 20,000 to 36,000feet, which is four to almost
seven miles underneath thesurface.
We're talking like the bottom ofthe Mariana Trench, even still
down there.
Life still exists.

(01:16:23):
It's frigid.
there are little single cellorganisms called, foram.
Ferra, which are also known asarmored amoeba that kind of live
around thermal vents and coldseeps and whatnot.
So, deep down in the ocean,there's really not much.

(01:16:43):
There's no light.
Um, there are no plants, and weknow life as we know it.
Plants make up the base of ourfood chain.
Right?
So how do things exist downthere?
No photosynthesis.
Um, there are sponges.
We have those, uh, famous anglerfish hagfish sharks sometimes

(01:17:05):
get down to the, uh, bath logiczone.
You got crustaceans and squidand bacteria.
So what do all of these littleguys eat?
They eat something called marinesnow.
Have you heard of marine snow?
It's kind of icky.
It's kind of gross.

(01:17:27):
so this is the name for theconstantly raining detritus that
is falling down toward the oceanfloor from shallower zones.
So this is like dead plankton,dead fish, poop, lots of poop,
um, mucus discharge.
So fish and, and other, marineorganisms are constantly

(01:17:48):
secreting mucus and it has to gosomewhere so it falls down and
little things eat it and justother stuff, other

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:17:56):
Yeah, 'cause like something, some
things do live birth, likedolphins and stuff.
I assume the amniotic fluid islike mucosal in some capacity.

Yeah.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:18:06):
Good protein.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:18:07):
Yuck.

Uh, they also have chemosynthetic
bacteria.
So those are a big part of thefood chain.
Instead of photosynthesizinglike plants do where they use
sunlight, they use, um, chemicaloff gasses from hydrothermal
vents and cold seeps down at thebottom of the ocean.
Uh, and both of those things arecreated from geological
phenomena.

(01:18:29):
hydrothermal vents are fromvolcanic activity and then cold
seeps, which are moresustainable, like they last a
really long time.
Those are from where tectonicplates meet under the earth.
Uh, these chemosyntheticbacteria use hydrogen sulfide,
carbon monoxide, methane oxygen,and various nitrogenous

(01:18:50):
chemicals to live, and thenother things eat them and yada
yada.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (01:18:55):
It sounds pretty stinky to me.

deep-sea-peepee--she-her (01:18:57):
Sound.
Yeah, sounds, smells like eggs.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:19:00):
Yeah,

Gross.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:19:02):
it smells like up dog down there.

not falling for that one.
I,

dammit.

so yeah, so that's the scene.
It's cold, it's pitch black,except for little pinpoint glows
of bioluminescent light fromorganisms that are either
outputting light to call tomates or they're trying to lure
prey in.
I thought that it would be quietdown there.

(01:19:30):
It is not quiet.
You would think at the bottom ofthe ocean it would be quiet,
right?
No, it's

there's not much down there, uh.

It's loud.
So even in the very deepestparts, you can still hear whale
calls, um, you can hear boatmotors, earthquakes too.
So you, you hear like theshifting of the earth down
there, and more.
And that's all because soundtravels faster in water than it
does air.
So here, you know, if.

(01:19:59):
Like a car motor, for example,from seven miles away.
You're not gonna hear that up onland, but under the water you
will due to density and sound isjust vibrations, you know, blah,
blah, blah.
So let's get into whales.
The main event, uh, whales arecitations.

(01:20:22):
three different types ofcitations.
You've got whales, you've gotdolphins and porpoises.
And dolphins are not porpoises.
Porpoises are a different thing.
whales, you, you've got bluewhales, humpback baline, gray
sperm killer whales are notwhales, they're dolphins.

(01:20:43):
Porpoises are different somehowfrom dolphins.
I, I don't really know much, Iguess.
Phylogenetically, they'reobviously, um, not dolphins.
They're smaller.
They have flat teeth instead of,uh, conical teeth, and they only
live in the Pacific Ocean.
All of these citations evolvedfrom, I'm gonna get into, into

(01:21:05):
evolution.
I'm sorry, this is one of therabbit holes.
I fell down'cause whaleevolution is hilarious to me.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:21:12):
Well, 'cause they used to be like
little deer, right?

Oh, I'm gonna send you a picture.
So they evolved from somethingcalled R Tactiles, which Cows
and Hippo, OMI and potus,whatever, also evolved from, so
our r tactiles have an evennumber of toes and they're
undulates.

(01:21:34):
So they are hoed way, way back,like Sky said before they came
back into the water.
'cause you know, all wifecrawled outta the water.
Um, originally they looked likelittle deer.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (01:21:47):
Mm-hmm.

And then about 50 million years ago,
I'm gonna send you guys apicture.
This is what they look like whenthey began transforming into a
their amphibious form.
so for the listeners, I know

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:22:03):
That's a whale.

that's a whale

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:22:06):
Oh my

for the listeners, they're looking
right now at Paus, who was adog.
Si it looks like a dog or like awolf dog size kind of doglike
thing.
Mostly ate fish.
Um, at this point they still hadear structures for hearing in

(01:22:30):
the air, um, because earstructures for aquatic animals
are different.
So that's kind of how we knowwhen they made the transition.
So this is.
They look like this when theystarted living more in the water
and then eventually they wouldtransition to become obligatory
aquatic dwellers.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:22:49):
Its skull kind of looks like a
crocodile.

that's what I was gonna, I was gonna
mention that it does have a veryaquatic looking skull.
Like you can kind of almost seethe whale in the skull already.
eventually they becameobligatory aquatic dwellers,
like I was saying, which meansthey have to live in the water
at all

Mm-hmm.

They turned into the whales we know
today, around 34 million yearsago.
That's when they developedbaline that, um, like fibrous
kind of meshy tooth structurethat lets them filter feed.
But they didn't grow into thegiant whales we know today until
four and a half million yearsago.
So it was pretty recent from anevolutionary standpoint.

(01:23:33):
And of course, we gotta talkabout the blue whale.
The blue whale is thought to bethe largest animal that has ever
existed on earth.
So that includes all dinosaurs,all prehistoric aquatic
creatures.
They can be from 80 to 90 feetlong and weigh up to 200 tons.

(01:23:53):
Crazy big.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:23:54):
It's a big bitch.

It's a big bitch.
Why are they so big?
We don't really know.
I mean, it could be due tosomething called tautological
specialization, which meansyou're gonna get better at it.
Because in order to keepexisting, you have to be better,
you know?
So they developed a good huntingstrategy, which let them get
big.
Being big requires more food, sothey had to get bigger in order

(01:24:19):
to be able to consume more food,et cetera, et cetera.
And now they're fricking giant.

Mm-hmm.

That being said, a couple years ago
they did discover, um, possiblya bigger ancient whale called
pea colossus found in Peru.
Um, look up pea colossus.
It's hilarious looking.
It looks like a giant big oldfatty fat whale with a tiny
little head.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (01:24:43):
Oh my God.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:24:45):
Now what in the dang hell computer
enhance?
It looks like a slug.

Yeah.
So that's possibly the biggestthing that's ever existed, and
it's hilarious looking.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:24:58):
kind of looks like a manatee and like
a dolphin mated, and made someweird

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:25:03):
silly little head.

Yeah.
Okey dokie.
So that's whales.
How do whales die?
Like all living things, whaleshave to die eventually, even
though, um, blue whales can livea really long time.
They can live up to 90 years.
but whales can die of old agedisease predation that depends

(01:25:26):
on the species of whale.
Um, they can be killed by sharksor killer whales.
I think killer whales are reallythe only thing that can hunt
blue whales, the biggest.
Um, and they only go after likesick and really old and dying
whales.
the other probably mostsignificant cause of death for

(01:25:48):
whales, humans.
Um, historically for ages,whales were hunted for meat,
blubber, other parts of theirbody.
Um, whale oil was a big thing.
Amber Gre, which is like a waxysubstance from their intestines
that was used in perfume inEurope.
Whale hunting began in theMiddle Ages, but it's a, an

(01:26:12):
ancient practice, you know,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (01:26:14):
A lot of corsets were, um, boned
with whale bone, I'm

with whale bones.
That's crazy.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:26:21):
You gotta get skinny, you gotta look
snatched,

Gotta kill that one.
Gotta kill something big.
So you can

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:26:26):
whale is so skinny.
I must have their bones.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (01:26:30):
Mm-hmm.

So, whale hunting is illegal in most
countries now, but it's stillpracticed in Japan, Iceland, and
Norway.
It's also practiced by, a lot ofindigenous groups around the
world, uh, north America,Russia, Australia, Indonesia,
just to name a few.
Um, but the amount that theyhunt is insignificant compared

(01:26:53):
to, you know, the wailingindustry from the 18 hundreds.
Yeah,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:26:58):
It's really bad in Japan.

yeah.
humans also contribute to thedeath of whales unintentionally
through climate change andpollution and also physical
interference.
Um, like they'll get entangledin nets, uh, or they'll
literally just hit ships.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:27:16):
Yeah.

It's like deer on the highway, but
whales in the ocean.
So after whales die, whathappens?
Occasionally they'll wash up onland.
Uh, and when a whale washes upon land, we're kind of, we kind
of don't really know what to dowith it

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:27:34):
It's too big.

'cause they're really big.
In 1970, a sperm whale washed upon an Oregon beach.
Um, the Navy and the highwaydepartment were worried because
if it was left alone and it.
Started rotting, it would makethe entire area, like smell
really bad and destroy the beachbasically for multiple years.

(01:27:57):
So they thought about ways toget rid of it, and for some
reason they decided they weregonna blow it up with a hundred
pounds of dynamite.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:28:07):
Now I can see why they might have
thought that was a good idea.
Perhaps

I think they didn't think very far
in advance because it just

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:28:21):
that not destroy the beach for a

I know, right?
Uh, there was one chunk ofblubber that was so big it was
thrown half a mile away andcrushed a car,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:28:33):
Could you imagine?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:28:34):
if I got hit by a whale chunk, I'd
be dead.

and you would be so stinky

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:28:42):
be safe.
If not dead, I'd be want to bedead because it's much like a
skunk.
I imagine I would never get thatoff.

Oh yeah.
You gotta wash your hair like

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:28:51):
Mm oh.
I'm shaving it.
Every inch of my body's gettingshaved.

In 2004 in Tynan City in Taiwan, a
sperm whale dyed and washed upand uh, or I don't know if it
washed up that, or if it wasbeached and then died.
But it died.
They tried to load it onto atruck.
With the goal of bringing it toa research facility, so it could

(01:29:17):
be, autopsied or necropsy tofind the cause of death and like
be experimented on and whatnot.
They got it on the truck.
Uh, they got to the researchfacility.
The research facility was like,no, we can't take it.
Sorry.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:29:33):
They didn't call ahead.

I don't know, dude.
I don't know.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:29:37):
You just gonna show up with a whale,

with a, with an entire whale on the
back of a truck, I mean, that'sprobably why they were fucking
turned away.
Hey, we got this whale.
Um, so they redirected to awildlife preserve.
Apparently you can dump themthere and they decompose and
like animals eat it and whatnot.
But they had to drive throughthe city of Nan to get there.

(01:30:03):
And by this point, due todecomposition, gases had built
up in the

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:30:08):
Uh

And when it was in the middle of the
city, it exploded

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:30:13):
Oh,

and it apparently rained blood and
guts everywhere.
There are a couple picturesonline.
Look at your own discretionbecause there is cartage, you
know, but it's

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:30:23):
don't mind if I do.

just look up 2004 Tynan City Whale or
Whale Explosion.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:30:32):
Oh no.

It is a sperm wear

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:30:37):
Oh no.
And they just said we're justgonna go through the city
center.
It's fine.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:30:43):
The picture of this moped is crazy.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:30:46):
Really funny.

yeah.
And the guy, just like with ahose buddy, what do you think
that's gonna do?
Are you trying to wash

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:30:54):
I am trying to get it to the sewer
drain.

But I found an article from NBC 2004
titled Var.
She Blows, and this is a quotefrom that article, after the
explosion, once it moved to anearby nature preserve, so they
still took it to the preserve.
The male specimen, the largestwhale ever recorded in Taiwan,

(01:31:19):
drew the attention of localsbecause of its large penis
measured at some five feet.
The Taipei Times reported morethan a hundred tynan city
residents.
Mostly men have reportedly goneto see the corpse to experience
the size of its penis.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:31:36):
Men are so gay.
I'm sorry, but men are sofucking gay.

Yeah.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:31:47):
Like where I'm not seeing its penis
in these photos.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:31:51):
Mm.

No,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:31:54):
penis?
No.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:31:56):
It's just

I think they are internal though,
right?
I don't wanna Google whalepenis,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:32:01):
Hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (01:32:01):
I guess maybe after it got there,
when they examined it, they werelike, and check for the penis.
Yes.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:32:07):
I think I'm seeing like a, a large
shot of the whale on its sideand there is a suspicious
looking appendage down whereit's, it's genital region is
looks pretty big.

It seems like it's internal and it
kind of comes out.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:32:23):
Mm.
I guess with all the gasbuildup, everything's just sort
of like getting pushed out.
So even an internal penis is,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:32:32):
Five foot long penis.
This is what all the fantasygirlies long for.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:32:36):
that's as tall as me Almost.
Hmm.

deep-sea-peepee--she- (01:32:39):
horrible.
I'm sending you guys somehorrible pictures.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:32:44):
Is it whale?
Penis?
I hope so.

It's not of this penis.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:32:48):
Just a whale penis.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:32:51):
It's like blue whale penis

this one's, this is a sperm whale and
a killer whale, which istechnically a dolphin, but you
know.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:32:59):
Uh, yep.

Yeah.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:33:01):
Yep.
Up.

deep-sea-peepee--she- (01:33:03):
Horrible.
You can cut this part out.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025 (01:33:05):
slinging

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:33:06):
leave it in.
Honestly.

Oh

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:33:09):
That's crazy.

Look at this man,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:33:14):
Which man,

this man

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:33:17):
put that thing down.

put that thing back where it came
from.
More so help me.
It does.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:33:23):
It's like a lucky rabbit's foot

Mm-hmm.
He looks so chuffed.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:33:29):
I hope that man's a scientist or
something.
He's not.
Just some pervert That's

Who is digging around?

Dicking around.

Ha.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:33:41):
Must be Herme.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:33:43):
Yeah.
I'll, I'll just, I'll cut himout.
It's.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (01:33:48):
I go up to a little whiteboard and
I, erase and then I write a zeroand it says it's been this many
days since penis has beenbrought up on the podcast.
And I'm like, ah.

So the majority of whales obviously
don't beach or wash up on shore.
That's a pretty rare, um,phenomenon.
So what does happen to, to otherwhales when they die?
Here?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:34:11):
stay where they're supposed to.

So there's a really interesting
video that I found called WhaleFall.
Per parenthetical afterlife of awhale by Sweet Fern Productions.
Um, it's fun.
The music is really ominous.
It, the, the whole thingactually has really ominous,
like dark vibes.

(01:34:35):
But the story of the four stagesof a whale falls told visually
with paper puppets and it'sreally artistically done, so you
should go check that out, but itis a little bit creepy.
Okay, what, what the heck is awhale fall?
Finally, here we are.
Whale falls.
Whale falls are, the whale fallsare defined as events when a

(01:34:56):
whale dies and its corpse sinksto either the, pathologic or the
abyss zones of the ocean whereit's deep, dark, and cold.
not every whale death is a whalefall.
Um, when they sink in shallowerwater, they've just become food
for scavengers and, um, they'reeating more quickly so they

(01:35:17):
don't have that opportunity tobecome an entire ecosystem on
their own.
Whale falls are massive foodinfusions into these deep sea
marine ecosystems.
One whale fall is the equivalentof 1000 years of marine snow.

(01:35:37):
Whale falls are biodiversityhubs.
Um, over 400 species of macrofauna have been found.
So this doesn't includemicrobes, bacteria, um, anything
like that.
They last for an extremely longtime because down there at the
bottom of the ocean it's reallycold and there's not a lot of

(01:35:59):
oxygen and bacteria need warmthand oxygen for the most part to
decompose organic matter.
So anything that would becontributing to rot down there
can't really function

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:36:13):
And there's not a whole lot of
fishies or anything to like pickapart the corpse and stuff.

well.
We'll get to that there, thereare a good amount that we'll go
over.
but Whale falls are really goodexamples of something called
ecological succession, which ishow an ecosystem changes over
time, like going through stagesas the environment around it
changes.
It's a national progression,kind of like when forests are

(01:36:38):
recolonized after a forest fire,uh, or when islands are
colonized for the first time,uh, after they've been created
by volcanic activity.
So it's like a kind of a blankcanvas stuff comes in and grows
and blooms and

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1 (01:36:53):
Nature inflation.

Yeah.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04- (01:36:57):
anything could happen.
It's a free market.

So pre-fall, a whale might die in
an epilog zone, like right upnear the surface.
This is where they spend themost of their time.
Um, maybe they live to old age,maybe they live to see 90 years
old, weaken and then drown.
So that would be

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:37:18):
That's sad.

pretty common way to go.
Yeah.
Um, they begin decomposing up atthe surface, so it's still warm,
there's still oxygen.
The microbes inside of themproduce gas, kind of like how we
saw in Taiwan, which makes themfloat up to the surface and
become available for scavengerslike seabirds and sharks and
whatnot to come in and eat'em.

(01:37:41):
And eventually the gas isreleased either because, um, you
know, due to animals eating it,or the corpse just becomes so
waterlogged that it starts tosink down toward the bottom of
the ocean.
And if it sinks down into thepathologic or ABIs logic zones
and comes to rest down on theocean floor, then it becomes a

(01:38:04):
whale fall.
So there are four stages we'regonna go over.
Stage one is the mobilescavenging phase.
So this is the quickest stage atlast.
Um, the shortest amount of timeit happens when there's still a
lot of meat and blubber on thewhale.
This is when the relatively bigboys come by and get their fill.

(01:38:26):
So we got hag fish, which lookkind of like eels, um, rat tail
fish, sleeper sharks, biggercrustaceans like snow crabs,
starfish squat lobsters.
So they eat blubber meat intrails.
Um, they can eat between 88 and132 pounds per day, which is a

(01:38:49):
lot.
But there's, there's so much ona whale, so much fat, incredibly
nourishing.
Then the smaller guys come in,you've got snails, um,
amphipods, which are really,really tiny crustaceans.
They're less than 10 millimetersin size, so they'll come and
they'll munch and nibble aswell.

(01:39:10):
So all of these scavengers,they're mobile.
That's why we call them mobilescavengers.
They come, they eat, then theygo on their way.
They're not rooted to the sitelike um, Cecile organisms would
be.
So it becomes kind of agathering place.
Like if you imagine, um, like adead elephant on, on the

(01:39:30):
Savannah, for example, and allof the animals kind of come and
go.
so for that reason, there's alsoa secondary source of food.
You have all these littleanimals gathering around, um,
which means they might becomelunch as well for predators.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:39:47):
High risk, high reward.

Yeah.
So this phase lasts between, itcan only last months or it can
last up to a year and a half.
near the end we have poly kitetea worms come in.
They're also known as bristleworms.
They look like aquaticmillipedes and they're gonna
play a really important rolethrough the rest of the phases.

(01:40:11):
So these guys have been aroundfor 500 million years and are
incredibly adaptable.
They can live in arctic waters,they can live in tropical
waters.
Um, and this is why theysurvived all five mass
extinction events.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:40:24):
They look crazy.
Wow.
They're

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:40:28):
What were they called again?

um, poly kitt.
It's P-O-L-Y-C-H-A-E-T-E, alsobristle worm.
You can

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:40:38):
Yeah, I just looked up bristle worm.
Wow.
They're fuzzy.

Yeah,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (01:40:45):
They're kind of fun.
They look like they have a goodtime.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:40:48):
I saw a picture of their mouth.
I don't like that.

yeah.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:40:51):
Look like a sea lamb prey.
Yeah.

Most of the stuff down there have
mouths like that though.
Like the, um, hagfish forexample, they got those like
gross kind of sucker

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:41:02):
Yeah.
Girls gotta eat.

Um, so now that the worms are on
site, we move into phase two,which is the enrichment
opportunist stage.
so by this stage, most of themeat and the blubber and whatnot
is gone.
so little guys like the Pollockkit worm come in and they feed
on the stuff, like all theleftover stuff that's kind of

(01:41:26):
been kicked up and around, um,flung around during phase one.
So all these nutrients areleaching out of the carcass,
both into the water around it,and it's also mixing into the
sediment.
So it lets littler things comein and, and eat that way.
Bivalves, like mollusks come andthey start filter feeding

(01:41:48):
bacteria grow over the remains,and the pictures are crazy.
The bacteria forms like anentire thick carpet over the
carcass.
We also have those Pollock Kittworms.
They also form a thick matclumped around the whale.
So if you look at pictures of,um, whale falls, they look fuzzy

(01:42:10):
and like they have a bunch ofstringy stuff kind of coming off
of them.
And that's the bacteria and thepollock kitti worms.
The poly kitti worms are aboutfive centimeters long, and there
can be up to 40,000 individualsper square meter.
So it's dense, they're gettingtheir fill.

(01:42:30):
This stage can last months tofive years After the enrichment
opportunists get everything thatthey can out of the carcass.
they leave.
Now it's just bones.
This stage, stage two had themost biodiversity with an
average of 185 species at atime.

(01:42:53):
Crazy.
That's a lot, that's a

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:42:54):
That's a lot in one area.
That's a

one, in one carcass.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:42:59):
Yeah.

Now we move to phase three, the
sulfa slic stage, also known assulfur.
Loving.
The flesh is removed.
Now we just have the bones.
Specific poly, its of the genusosedax, which are also known as
zombie worms come in.
So they're called zombie wormsbecause they eat bones.

(01:43:25):
They start to eat the bones theyattach to the surface and begin
tunneling down, uh, which letsbacteria get into the center of
the bones, to get at all of thefat that's left inside.
and when bacteria break downorganic matter without oxygen,
they produce a lot of sulfide,as a byproduct.
So this is called sulfuroxidation.

(01:43:48):
So these are sulfur oxidizingmicrobes.
All of the sulfur productionlets microbes that eat sulfur,
move in.
These are called sulfur reducingmicrobes.
So you have that kind of giveand take there to one thing
cannot exist without the other.
And those bacteria, the originalbacteria, can only exist because

(01:44:09):
of these zombie worms, allowingthem access to the middle of
these bones.
So there's a ton ofinterconnectedness that we see
already.
So these sulfur reducingmicrobes, they can either form
mats that grow over the boneslike we saw in phase two, or
they can live inside of otherorganisms and help them with

(01:44:30):
their metabolism, kind of howchloroplast live inside of plant
cells.
They used to be independent.
Um, archaic kind of algae littleguys, and then they moved inside
of plant cells and now they havethis really cool symbiotic
relationship.
these chemosynthetic bacteriacan live in the guts or other
parts of organisms thatotherwise couldn't break down

(01:44:51):
the sulfur, which is importantbecause they live inside of
those osedax zombie worms.
They live in their root system,so they have roots that kind of
tether to the bones I know.
And so the bacteria inside areproducing that sulfur.
The bacteria in the roots takethat sulfur and do that, um,

(01:45:15):
sulfur reduction, which thenallows the worm to kind of feed
that way.
The overall, I mean likegenerally we know that that's
how it works.
We're not entirely sure aboutthe mechanisms or how they
dissolve the bones in the firstplace.
Um, but that's, that's kind ofwhat's going on.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (01:45:33):
They're just sucking.

Just sucking this phase is the
longest and can, can last from50 to 100 years maybe more.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (01:45:46):
It takes a while to get through a
bone man.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:45:48):
Yeah.
for a little worm.
Yeah,

I feel like this phase is what we
think of when we think of Whalefalls, because obviously it's
around for the longest, so thisis probably the phase that
they're in.
That most whale falls are in atany given time, and they look so
lonely.
If you watch footage of like theNautilus, for example, kind of
like swimming around WhaleFalls, it just looks so, so

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:46:13):
just looks like a bones owns.

there's so many guys down there just
feasting.
So that's happening for 50 to ahundred years until every last
scrap of whatever can be eatenis gone.
Then we move into the finalstage, phase four, the reef
stage.
So all the sulfides gone.
There's no more fat, it's justbare bones.

(01:46:38):
And these leftover bones actafter all the bacteria.
The worms are gone.
They're kind of bare.
They act as a reef or sedentaryorganism, so like bivalves and
sponges and whatnot, move in andattach to it, and then they
filter feed there.
Over time, it's colonized somuch that it begins to just

(01:46:59):
blend into the ocean floor,ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
Even the largest animals thathave ever graced the earth
ultimately end and are reducedto soil essentially.
So whale falls are important.
In total, uh, over 400 speciesof macro fauna have been found,

(01:47:23):
um, around them.
So it's truly an oasis in thedesert of the deep ocean,
crucial for the health of deepsea environments because it
brings so many nutrients fromthe surface down to the bottom
that otherwise would not bebrought down and distributed
through the community.
So it's basically like astimulus check for the deep sea.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:47:48):
A 100 year stimulus check.

Here's, here's a little, here's some
food

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:47:54):
Do some walking

from, the top trickle down economics
over here.
Uh, there's also an effectcalled the whale pump happening.
So this is, uh, a type of carbonsequestration, which is when
carbon is locked out of theenvironment.
Kind of like back in episode 19when we were talking about the

(01:48:16):
Carboniferous era, all the treesthat locked in all the carbon
and then died.
and the carbon was just notavailable to go back into the
air.
So depletion of CO2, that's kindof what whales do.
So they're huge.
They're made up of a ton ofcarbon.
They sink down to the bottom ofthe ocean.
So the carbon stays down therefor around a thousand years.

(01:48:40):
Um, and because like we saidearlier, the.
Stuff down there doesn't reallymix back up to the top of the
ocean.
It can't be released back intothe ecosystem, which means it's
effectively reducing atmosphericcarbon, depleting some small
portion, but, you know, I'lltake whatever we can get of the
carbon dioxide that's currentlycontributing to global warming.

(01:49:03):
Thank you Whales.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:49:05):
Thank you wells.

So the future, obviously there have
been huge hits to whalepopulations over the past
centuries, um, in the 20thcentury alone.
So the 19 hundreds and estimated3 million whales were killed

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:49:23):
Yikes,

and they're very big.
They take a very long time tomature.
Um, they usually only have onepuppet at a time, so that means
replenishing their populationstakes a really long time.
blue whales are still currentlyendangered, so they're not doing
great.
But there is some good news.
Um, there was a collaborativestudy in 2024, which I'll link

(01:49:46):
in the sources that shows thatbayline, humpback and gray whale
populations are rapidlyincreasing right now.
So

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:49:53):
They fucking,

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:49:55):
let's fucking go.

back.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:49:58):
with their big five foot long penis.

yeah, partially because, um, whale
hunting was outlawed in theeighties and you know.
So there's hope.
There's hope, and that's WhaleFalls.
Just a beautiful example of howwe living things are constantly
exchanging ourselves with theworld around us all the time.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:50:19):
In ways you don't even know

Yeah.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (01:50:23):
I have a question

Hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:50:25):
all the way, way, way, way down at
that abysmal level.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:50:30):
Below,

Abysmal or the hot, the haal Pologic

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1 (01:50:35):
Either just when you're way, way, way
down there, what is the floormade of?

chalk.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:50:42):
Oh,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:50:44):
Talk.

Mm-hmm.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1 (01:50:47):
That's not what I thought you were
gonna

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:50:48):
and the calcium deposits,

yeah.
Let me see.
so the, I was inspired, um, todo this topic, be because I read
this book, life Everlasting byBurnt Heinrich, and in the
chapter on Whale Falls, heactually talks about chalk.
Let me

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10204 (01:51:07):
So in this context, like what is
chalk?

what is chalk?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:51:12):
what are chalk?

oh yeah.
So Shock is.
If you look at it under themicroscope, it turns out that
it's not just a homogenouschemical structure, it's
hundreds of thousands of tinylittle microbial bodies
compacted together.
So it's basically like organicdebris.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:51:35):
Okay.
That's pretty much what I

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:51:37):
a blackboard Chalk.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:51:39):
It's just like a waste compounded
waist that's just sort ofclumped together.
Yeah.

Yeah.
No, blackboard chalk also isformed from, um, the corpses of
marine microorganisms.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:51:54):
You gotta get that calcium from
somewhere.

Yeah.
It's all, it's all recycled,man.
So we literally do, or you know,at the end of the day, organic
matter just turns back into theearth.
Right.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:52:09):
Wow.

I thought that was gonna be
longer.
I don't know how long I wastalking for, but

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:52:13):
Uh, I don't know.
I was just having fun learning.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102045 (01:52:18):
I still love whale in a way.
It's kind of beautiful.
A whale

oh yeah, absolutely.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:52:23):
It's a cycle of life.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (01:52:25):
They're so useful

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:52:27):
you're valuable.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:52:28):
Yeah.

This book, um, I was thinking about
doing like a topic or like a, anepisode all based on this, it's
really good life.
Everlasting by Bet Heinrich.
He's this guy that owns thishuge property in Maine, and he's
an ecologist and does a bunch ofstudies on like beetles and
ravens and all of that.

(01:52:50):
And he's really interested inscavengers and how they play a
role in recycling, like therecycling of energy back into
the ecosystem and the earth andwhatnot.
A beautiful book.
You should read it.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:53:05):
I will add it to the list.

papa-skye_1_04-27-202 (01:53:08):
Gorgeous.

And do we have any final thoughts?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2025 (01:53:12):
I just feel smarter now.

Good.
We've learned about Rowan, we'velearned about, or we've deeply
considered and talked about, uh,spiritual burnout.
We've

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-202 (01:53:26):
at Whale

falls.
Yeah.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27 (01:53:29):
really are.
The podcast with everything.
Huh?

They're down there right now as you're
listening to this.

There's a whale fall down there that's
been there for a hundred yearsright now,

Down at the bottom of the lonely
ocean.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:53:45):
but it's not lonely.
'cause there's so many organismsdown there getting what they
need.

And it's probably so loud.
It probably just sounds likeconstant earthquakes.

Deafening

Also, the fact that whale calls can
travel so far around a whalefall, you probably still hear
distant whale calls.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:54:07):
soon.
It will be them.

All right, well, uh, if you wanna
contact us, wanna tell us whatyou do for spiritual burnout?
Wanna tell us about yourfavorite trees?
Have you ever had row and jam?
Um, are you a whale on thebottom of the ocean?

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:54:26):
How'd you get a computer?

Uh, they're on their iPhone down
there.

They're on their iPad.

They've

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (01:54:34):
dolphin has a government issued iPhone.

Yeah.
Oh God.
They would take over the worldso fast.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_ (01:54:41):
Mm-hmm.

But if that's you, You can email us
at death coven pod@gmail.com, oryou can reach out to us on
Instagram, give us a follow,like DM, whatever, at death
coven pod, and if there'snothing else, buy the power of
three.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:55:01):
And so it is.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_1020 (01:55:03):
And so it is,

And so it is

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:55:08):
Ooh.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-2 (01:55:09):
Ooh.

Wow.

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_102 (01:55:12):
Ooh.

Wow.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27- (01:55:16):
Can't believe that whale exploded in
the middle of,

papa-skye_1_04-27-2025_10 (01:55:19):
Yeah.

when I read that, I was like, excuse
me.

tummy-ache-jones_1_04-27-20 (01:55:22):
Why wouldn't they call beforehand?

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NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 27: The Rowan Tree, Spiritual Burnout, and Whale Falls

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2

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NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

All Episodes

Episode 27: The Rowan Tree, Spiritual Burnout, and Whale Falls

Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2