November 26, 2025 • 60 mins
What if the secret to better interiors is the same method therapists use to guide change? We sit down with Anouska Milstein of Studio A.mi to unpack a simple framework that reshapes design from the inside out: observe, explain, predict, and then change or improve. It’s a candid, uplifting look at how empathy, psychology, and good systems turn “make it pretty” into “make it personal.”
We trace Anouska’s path from psychology lectures to a concept-driven degree and the small practice apprenticeship that taught discipline, file hygiene, and craft. She shares how a COVID redundancy pushed her to build a studio that centres collaboration and consent, right down to greeting clients with a hug when it feels right. Trust becomes practical: a smarter onboarding questionnaire, three feeling-words per room, and a feedback rhythm that avoids polite nods followed by next-day panic emails. We dig into planning for how people actually live, why colour misses often come down to unspoken history, and how to “step into the plan” to test light, flow, and comfort before a single wall moves.
If you’re an interior designer, architect, or design lover curious about client psychology, rapport, and creating homes that age with their owners, this conversation is filled with honest lessons. Expect talk of body language, reading the room, mentorship, redundancy as a reset, and the relief of systems that keep creative work organised under pressure. It’s a reminder that design is a service, trust is earned, and the best rooms begin with listening.
Check out Studio A.mi's beautiful work on socials:
Insta: @studio.a.mi
Enjoy the chat? Follow the show, leave a rating, and share this episode with a friend who loves thoughtful interiors. Your reviews help more listeners find us and keep these conversations going.
Bree is now offering a 90-minute online design consult to help you tackle key challenges like colour selection, furniture curation, layout, and styling. Get tailored one-on-one advice and a detailed follow-up report with actionable recommendations—all without a full-service commitment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker (00:01):
Welcome to Design Anatomy, the Interior Design
podcast hosted by friends andfellow designers, me, Bree
Banfield.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
And me, Lauren Li, with some amazing guest
appearances along the way.
We're here to break downeverything from current trends
to timeless style.
Speaker (00:15):
With a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled and
lived-in spaces, we're veryexcited to share our insights
and inspiration with you.
And today we have a verytalented designer joining us.
It's Anouska from Studio A.mi.
, right?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yes.
Speaker (00:33):
Yeah.
But welcome.
We're so thrilled to have youwith us today to have a chat.
Thank you for having me.
Excited to be.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So cool.
I know.
Well, Anouska, I think I firstmet you when we were invited to
this gorgeous lunch that umLauren Egan organized.
So a fellow podcast of theDesign Anatomy guest.
And she yeah, she broughttogether just like a gorgeous
table of women in interiordesign.
(01:00):
And I just remember meetingyou, and I was like, oh my gosh,
Anouska, you're so nice.
Like you were just so warm andgorgeous.
And then we met at the uhLyceum Club as well.
Um, and then we just littlechats on Insta here and there.
So it's like nice to get toknow you a little bit more.
Speaker (01:17):
Yeah, everything's gonna be new to me today because
I don't really know you at all.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah.
And vice versa, yeah.
It's a great way to kick it alloff.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And I guess, like, you know, when I look at your
work, I love it.
It has like that Frenchsensibility, like beautiful
layered, rich materials and justan overall vibe that is very
chic.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So um it's a huge compliment.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, it's really cool.
So I guess um I'm curious toknow um because on your website
you said that you studiedpsychology before interior
design.
So, how how did you get intointerior design?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And how did all of that it's a good question
because yeah, in some ways it'sa a massive uh change, but and
uh as we have discussed inothers, there are definitely a
lot of crossovers.
But ultimately it came down to,and I actually really remember
the moment clearly.
Um, I was studying for end ofthird year, so my undergraduate
(02:22):
um statistics exam, and it waslike 11 o'clock at night, and I
was trying to basically getthrough a semester's worth of
slides because I never went tothe um stats lectures because I
hated it.
And I just thought to myself,am I really because when you
finish the undergraduate, Iwanted to be a clinical site.
When you finish theundergraduate, then you need to
(02:44):
do a postgrad.
And that's like another fewyears of um studying and a lot
of it statistics.
And I just thought to myself,do I really want to be doing
this?
And I'd always been creativelyinclined.
And I thought, well, what if Ithink about, you know, I'm still
young, what if I think aboutsomething else, trying another
course where I'm pursuingsomething creative and yeah,
(03:05):
naively thought that uh interiordesign could be the way to
riches as well.
But you know, that's a work inprogress.
Speaker (03:12):
People do have that impression, don't they?
I feel like there's thatimpression, and we're like, no,
we're all broke.
Yeah, it's like we're doingbeautiful projects with gorgeous
things in them.
But come to our houses, well,maybe not all of us, come to our
houses, you know, and it's IKEAand things that broke on a
chute.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Oh god, yeah, four, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mistake orders, an extra fastone extra while in bed.
Speaker (03:37):
We've got a few of those, haven't you?
Definitely have a couple ofthose.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Um, but yeah, I did I did actually like I literally
was sitting in my room and thenI'm looking around me and
looking.
So at the time I was stillliving with uh my mum and we'd
just moved into a new house.
I grew up, you know, my parentsmoved around a lot.
Um still largely just withinMelbourne, but lots and lots of
rentals.
And it had always fascinated meto see them kind of like pick
(04:05):
up their lives as represented bythe objects and furniture that
they'd collected, um, and thenrearrange them and transform
these shells.
And so I was sort ofcontemplating that and
contemplating the fact that I'dkind of inherited their love of
doing that.
And so I was like, hmm, whatabout interior design?
And and Googled it.
And um, yeah, I mean,interestingly, I've ended up
(04:27):
much more in a path of uhinterior sort of architecture,
but also furnishings.
Like I think initially I was Ionly understood interior design
to be more the decoration, butum yeah, that's how it came to
be.
And I just the first coursethat came up on Google was um
what I applied for.
Wow.
Speaker (04:46):
Good old Google leading the way.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
To be honest with you, like the first AI.
I didn't know that statisticswould be such a big part of
psychology either.
So I think that's fair to bekind of you know, you enroll
into a course and you go, youactually study it and go, This
is not what I signed up for,looking at stats all day.
I did not think that would be,but yeah, I don't know anything
(05:12):
about it.
Speaker (05:13):
I also find it interesting.
I don't know, I I'm not sure ifyou're the same, Lauren, but
like I was really interested indoing um psychology.
And I wonder if there's ifthere's a bit of a crossover
with creative brains.
And it's not the I I've heardother interior designers also,
and I think we know even atleast one or two that have moved
over from psychology intointeriors.
(05:35):
So there must be some weird, Idon't know, left brain, right
brain crossover thing.
But then when it comes down to,I think I was the same, I was
like, that and lore, I actuallyreally was law, psychology, and
acting were the three things Iwanted to do.
It's cool.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I mean, that's kind of all in interior design.
Speaker (05:57):
Yeah, well, absolutely.
But um, I realized that the lawand the psychology part would
be very heavy on the study andthe the texts, and I and it's
not my strong point.
I was really interested inthem, but I knew I couldn't do
that all the time.
I would probably go crazy.
So yeah, it's funny though.
I just I just feel like it'sjust not the first time I've
(06:19):
heard that um that crossoverfrom interiors to psychology or
vice versa.
Yeah, we definitely do need itthough, don't we?
Psychology and interiors.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Oh yeah.
Well, I mean, that's what I'mI'm kind of curious to yeah, ask
you, like with your psychologystudies, has any of that sort of
helped you with your interiordesign practice?
Do you psychoanalyse yourclients?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, not getting them on the couch.
Well, not in that sense anyway.
Eventually, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but um, but yeah, I thinklike the the basic principles of
psycho like psychologicalpractice, um or psych yeah, is
the sort of the main things areum observe, explain, predict,
(07:06):
and then change or improve.
So I think like using thosefoundations and then you start
when you think about theparallel with um interior
design.
So, you know, you start offwith the observations, you're
going into clients' homes a lotof the time, or their existing
businesses, and you're takingthose in and you're having
conversations with them.
And I guess like starting togather a bit of a uh a backstory
(07:31):
for yourself of who they are asit is.
And then I guess the explainelement comes into um uh like
their history, so why they livethe way that they live, why
their tastes are the way thatthey are.
And so you're starting to getinto their minds and be like,
okay, well, I can kind of see,you know, yeah, why they have
(07:53):
been drawn to these decisions inthe past.
I think the predict is, youknow, not only predicting what
their reactions to certainthings that you're proposing to
them might be, but then I alsothink a prediction of um how
they will use space.
So, you know, when I thinkabout joining planning, for
example, um, yeah, just thinkingabout their flow in life as it
(08:16):
is and thinking about, well,what's going to be most
comfortable for them as well?
Because you can't, yeah.
Sometimes you I sometimes Ithink the inclination is to take
people to a place that's likeway too far from their reality.
So you have to be realisticabout that.
And then that flows into thethe change and improve
ultimately.
(08:36):
So yeah, how can you facilitatethese um these positive changes
uh through their design spaces?
Yeah.
Speaker (08:45):
It's fascinating.
Exactly interior design whenyou pick it down like that,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I would love to like frame, yeah, I would love to
frame a whole design processaround that.
Yeah, totally.
You know, it's sort of like ina way it sort of speaks into
their language, like anybody canunderstand that.
So oh, how clever.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, it's interesting observing the
crossovers.
And I think, yeah, yeah, no,it's um just yeah, so so
similar.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, and I think that's the thing as well.
Like sometimes clients want usto um, okay, so this is my
space, like what's the design?
And you can't, well, I can'tjust say, Oh, this is the answer
because you can't just getthere from A to Z.
You've got to go through all ofthose points, you know, like so
what can you explain?
Can you just say what they wereagain?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Um, yeah, so in order, observe.
Yeah, observe, explain,explain, predict, and then
change slash improve.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Oh, cool.
And that's the thing, like youcan't like almost you can't
diagnose when you don't havethat.
Um when you when you you can'tobserve.
Yeah, you can't you can't givethem that, I guess,
prescription, which is like thatend result when you don't have
all of that knowledge and it'sso much of a more richer space
(10:08):
when you can really understand,you know, how the client lives.
And yeah, I think that was aninteresting point that you said
you can't always you might havethis great idea, but you have to
predict that's going to push ittoo far for them, and they're
not they might they might notlike that.
Yeah.
Speaker (10:23):
It's a really good explanation of yeah, how how we
do have to work as as designers.
It it's making me think of um Iused to dabble sometimes on the
answering questions on theDulux chat, you know, like when
you get the little chat thingand they ask you questions, or
they'd do like sessions wherepeople could ask questions and
you'd get people saying thingslike, What color should I paint
(10:45):
my lounge room?
That was all the information.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh no.
And you'd be like, Yeah, I'm ajust a little more would be
great.
Speaker (10:56):
Just a little.
It's the same thing thatLauren's saying is like, you
know, we do have clients whothink we can just walk into a
space and go, this we could walkinto a space and go, well, this
is how you should do it.
But for it to work for thatperson, you have to have all
those steps in place to properlyunderstand, right?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's one thing, youknow, I I think most of us in
our profession, we have we wouldhave the ability to enter any
space.
Like I'm just thinking, forexample, if we were to have an
engagement with a developer andthey're like, we just want to
create beautiful spaces thathave mass appeal, then I think
we would all be able to do thatto, you know, a beautiful level.
But then, yeah, where myinterest lies and how I've sort
(11:36):
of been growing my business iswell, how do I make it feel
really personal to the client?
And yeah, I'm sure that thatapproach is also common for a
lot of others.
Speaker (11:47):
Um, I was gonna say it sort of leads into that question
of trust too.
So I think when you're able togo through those steps with a
client, you it is a way of kindof building trust with them
because you're showing that youneed to understand them and
you're exchanging, you know,ideas and conversations.
Is that is that the way youwould do it in terms of building
(12:09):
up trust with a client so they,you know, really are invested
in in what you're telling themor what's that process like?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah.
I mean, trust is such a complexone because I think that people
do have, you know, well,everyone has their own story.
And I think that, you know, alot of people, I mean, buzzword
traumas of their past, um, youknow, even if they are really
mild.
And so I think that, yeah,going into meeting clients and
um and just being aware thattrust might be something that
(12:38):
can be quite difficult for themand being really sensitive to
that and sort of dipping yourtoes in lightly and um and
testing the waters.
But I think, you know, it itreally just um starts with
building rapport and I thinkjust showing, or in my opinion
anyway, on from my experience,giving clients a bit of a sense
(12:58):
of who you are as a person,asking them a lot of questions
and making them feel reallydeeply heard.
And then yeah, I guess like ajust a big part of rapport is
just finding that common ground.
And so, you know, if they aretelling you, you know, if you
ask questions and they'retelling you a story, and then if
you can bring in something fromyour past that can relate to
(13:21):
that without, you know, givingthem too much information, but
just that that relatability, Ithink just um helps immediately
uh bring those, bring that senseof connection.
Apparently, actually back topsychology for a second.
Apparently, there's something,and that this was so many years
ago that I studied psychologynow, so I can't remember exactly
what it is.
But apparently in our brains,um, when we're communicating
(13:45):
with people and we find commonground, there's actually like a
positive hormone that'sreleased.
I can't remember which one itis.
So that's that's what actuallycreates bonds, um, emotional
bonds.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
So there's science to back it.
But I also think that, youknow, what you're saying is um I
like what you said.
People want to feel seen andheard.
And, you know, what you weretalking about, observe, explain,
predict, and change or make itbetter, that's something that
I've never heard taught in termsof interior design.
And I feel like, you know, wewe learn the design process and
(14:19):
all of this, you know, theelements of principles of design
or whatever.
But so much a part of the workwe do is listening to clients.
And I think being curious, likeBrie and I have talked about
that before.
And I think that's why youprobably, you know, psychology,
just curious about people andinterior design, curious about
people, but it's I'm curiousabout how people live and um
(14:42):
yeah, kind of leaning into that.
And I think, you know, whatdrives me crazy is when I hear
an interior designer say to aclient, it'll look great, just
trust me.
And I'm like, how can you askthat?
I feel like it's a reallyunfair request to say to a
client, just trust me.
Like you need to build thattrust, you need to earn it.
Speaker (15:00):
You do have to earn it.
Yeah.
You do.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And yeah, we have experience and you might have
won awards and all of that'samazing.
But the client needs to feelseen and heard.
And I feel like that is one ofthe keys in trust.
And I love what you said aboutthat relatability as well.
And I mean, a lot of my clientsare from such a different world
than our pretty aestheticbubble of design.
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
(15:23):
You know, but you candefinitely find common ground on
some things, and it could bejust sort of an an overworld, an
overall worldview that you sortof feel like you have something
in common, or it could be assomething quite as tangible as
I've got three kids, you've gotthree kids, where do the school
bags go?
And they're like, oh my God, Iknow, and the lunch boxes, and
(15:44):
you know, they want to dive intothose details.
And and I think that's why it'sso great that there is a
designer out there for everyclient.
Not every everyone's the rightfit for every other client as
well.
And sometimes you just click sowell with people, and sometimes
you just might not, and that'sokay as well.
So would you mind if we wentback into that night where you
(16:07):
were Googling interior designand then you signed up to the
course?
How what happened?
Like, how did you what happenedafter you you finished up?
Did you complete thatpsychology degree or did you
just throw in the towel thatnight?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
No, I did.
Well, actually, I actually wenton to fail that statistics
subject.
But by that point, by thatpoint, I had already signed up
and been accepted into aninterior design course.
So I did my first year ofinterior design with it still
making up for that onestatistics class, but finished
(16:43):
the undergraduate.
Um, I will be like fulltransparency.
They actually gave me a 51%.
No, no, no, no.
I think it's because I thinkit's funny.
They gave me a 51% on thatexam.
And I'm like, surely they justwanted to get me through.
And they were just Yes, just bya hair.
I probably failed again if I'mbeing honest.
(17:05):
But yeah, got the undergraduatedone and um, yeah, and then
went on to crazily do actuallyfive years of interior design
studies, which um yeah, I thinkI'm so grateful for the course
that I did, um, which was atRMIT because it was highly
conceptual.
And I think that really umhelped build the foundation of
yeah, my interest in interiordesign and sort of building
(17:28):
concept up.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Was it what you expected the course?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
It was the furthest thing from what I expected.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I thought you were gonna say that.
That's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Um, I think it was probably like it not until I
don't need to be sensitive.
I'm like conscious of what I'msaying.
Um, I don't want to put my footinto a remarkable course.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, I I think it's very common though.
That's why I asked.
A lot of people sign up for thedegree, and I've done the
diploma, which is exactly whatyou expect.
It's waving around fabric andcolours and talking about that.
But the degree didn't touch afabric.
And I know a lot of people werequite confused.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, I think um definitely leaving the degree it
was like, how on earth do Ieven begin to do this as a
practical in practicalapplication?
But I think the value I mean,yeah, I think there's a bit of
an expectation in there um fromthe university that you start to
sort of work part-timesomewhere.
And so that's building thatbecause they see that their role
(18:30):
is more so how do we give youthe tools that you need to think
in a different way?
Definitely.
Yeah.
I mean So yeah, when you'redesigning, oh sorry, like
moments where it's like 2 a.m.
and you're working on a projectwhere you're like designing um
a house that needs to fit intothe palm of your hand made of
like bark or something, andyou're like, what is happening?
(18:50):
But then ultimately you canunderstand, you know, like how
your mind was pushed to think ina really different way is
actually an incredible tool.
And I think that's one of theamazing things about university,
just learning how to think.
Speaker (19:04):
Yeah, when else do you get to really, really do that?
You know, explore all thoseideas and be really conceptual.
That's kind of the time to doit, isn't it?
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And I also think that those, that kind of way of
thinking is something that'sreally hard to learn on YouTube.
You know, you could you couldlearn some of the more practical
stuff on YouTube, right?
You could learn how to useSketchUp, you can learn how to
do all that stuff.
But that is so that's that'samazing that they can yeah,
(19:36):
really change the way that youthink.
And yeah, I remember one of thefirst assignments we had to do.
Um, I did the degree atSwingburn, was um you had to
build a 30 by 30 centimeter cubeand there had to be something
that happened and a reaction andthen an end.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Like I was like, but what interior design and you're
just spinning out, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, but it was so it was amazing.
Like, yeah, the the way theyget you to think so.
It's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, like super challenging, but um, yeah, so so
uh fascinating.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess with your projects,have you um sort of been in the
midst of a project and thought,oh, I'm getting a bit stuck here
or something, and thought, oh,I I actually really need to
learn lean on something that Ilearned in my psychology
studies, or is it sort of quiteintegrated in your approach?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I think more so if I do find myself in that place,
um, you know, in sort of laterin the design process, um, I'll
go back to just the early stagesof the project and I'll read
back through my clients'responses to like early stage
questionnaires that I sendthrough.
(20:52):
And these are some, these arelike a more recent tool that
I've developed in the last coupmaybe like two years and the
constantly evolving, just umkind of onboarding
questionnaires where I'm tryingto gauge as much information of
that um from them as possible.
And it's from that that willI'll do like my initial concept,
which is building a story anddoing initial mood boards.
(21:15):
And what I find is just if I'mstuck later in the design
process, going back to thoselike the initial concept
presentation and thequestionnaire often has the
answers within and kind ofredirects things.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, sometimes you need to refresh and think, oh,
hang on, what what were we doingagain?
Like, what was the vibe?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
So yeah, and I think just going back to the core of
yeah, the genesis of it all.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah.
So in your questionnaire, is ituh what kind of questions is
it?
Is it more like how do you liveor is it like what is your
least favorite colour?
Is it specific stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
There definitely is the least favorite colour.
It's a handy question.
Because I think it's important.
Yeah, yeah, because you oh, Godforbid, you you know, yeah.
I've definitely had earlystages presentations where I was
really thought I'd had itnailed with the colour, and
they're like, I actually hatethat colour and have my whole
life.
Speaker (22:10):
Oh my god, recently where um I've presented and
there was like I was like reallyhappy with it.
I thought I'd nailed it, andthen there was just a bit of
crickets, you know, when you getthe crickets and like that's
never good.
And they're just and kind ofjust poker faces, and I'm like
going, oh Jesus, this is notgood.
And it was literally just acolour.
(22:31):
Like I was like, we reallydon't like this particular
colour, and I'm like, oh great,I just based the whole thing
out.
I know.
Yeah, so flash.
Sometimes I don't tell youuntil and so if you don't ask
specifically, but I've alsoasked specifically and then
gotten an answer and then gonedown a track where they've gone,
well, no, I don't like this orwhatever.
(22:53):
Sometimes clients don't knowwhat they don't like until they
see it.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Definitely.
Or they think they know thatthey don't like a colour in
certain applications, but thenthey can't even visualize it,
you know, on a cushion orsomething yet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think definitely afew of those questions to try
and weed out on it.
I will try to avoid thepossibility of going too far
(23:20):
down one rabbit hole that justisn't going to work from them.
But the the evolution that hasreally happened in these
questionnaires, um, I will say Ithe initial one was built off
one from my former work place,which was actually an
architecture practice and wasgenerously shared with me by my
former boss.
Um, and that was really aboutum planning and you know, things
(23:44):
like do you prefer a doublesink in your kitchen and like
mixer taps and um yeah,integrated dishwasher, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
But then yeah, I started tothink, you know, as as my um
business has grown and it'sbecome so much more about
interrogating, interrogating isnot the right word, asking a lot
(24:05):
of questions, curiosity, um,and totally.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Totally an interrogation.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Well, yeah, a soft and slow interrogation.
Um yeah, just trying to think,okay, well, how can I start to
bring those questions into thequestionnaires as well?
So um, and and start to, Iguess, uh pull out from their
histories.
So there's questions like um,do you have a place that you've
(24:32):
ever stayed on a on a holidaytrip that really uh stuck has
stuck with you?
Um, and then that's somethingthat we can talk to.
Or um another example isthere's a lot of questions
surrounding um like uh sensorialexperiences of spaces and even
like tactility of things.
(24:53):
Like, are there any fabricsthat you love the feeling of?
Are there any fabrics that areunpleasant to you?
Um and you know, thinking aboutoh, another actually like a
really great one that I'veintroduced kind of more recently
as well, is um, once I have anunderstanding of each of their
rooms that we'll be working on,I asked them to give me three
(25:14):
words to describe how they wantto feel in each room.
And that's actually beenprobably the strongest guiding
star to keep going back to when,yeah, because I feel like we if
you're starting with just likea mood and a feeling, um, that's
really powerful and that's areally great place to build a
(25:35):
visual story from.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, I've actually asked a client that before.
Oh, how do you want your spaceto feel?
And they just looked at me likeI had two heads.
They were like they had neverthought about it before.
They'd never thought about it.
So I think that's you know,it's a it's a good one with the
questionnaire.
And I've some clients I usethem, sometimes I don't.
Sometimes it feels like toomuch homework if they're so
(26:00):
busy.
And sometimes I'll print it outand we'll sort of go through it
together.
But you know, it is um it is ablend of yeah, those more
feeling and emotion questionswith the do you prefer a mixer
tap or a but sometimes clientsagain, they've never even
thought about mixer tap versuswall-mounted versus bench
mounted or whatever.
(26:20):
And you have to actually uhunpack that with them in real
time, like go to a showroom andthis is what an integrated uh
dishwasher looks like.
This is a dish drawer.
This is a so it's it's kind ofyeah, you it's not like that
that's the end questionnaire.
We've not we know all theanswers now.
It's like just an ongoing, anongoing process and it's fun.
(26:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker (26:47):
And each project's so different that you kind of
uncover more questions sometimesthat you might not have asked
before.
Um, yeah.
Or some are irrelevant, Iguess, too.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, no, definitely over time, just seeing, well,
actually, I don't think thatthese qu like this question is
serving much, so I'll get rid ofthat.
But then in this last project,I really wish that I had known
this.
So I'm gonna bring that intothe questionnaire.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
So okay, sorry for jumping around, but so you
studied for five years.
And did that include like an uha work placement year or
something?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
No, I uh it was a bit silly of me.
I didn't um yeah, I didn'tactually start working at a
practice until I think like thelast six months of my studies.
But no, full disclosure, Iactually didn't get into the
course that I first applied toat first, um, or my first
preference.
So I I studied a year, um Istudied a year at Swinburne,
(27:53):
which was a great course.
Um, and that, but that was verykind of more architecturally
focused with the interiordesign.
And by at that point, I just II had a couple of friends who
um, or people I knew who werestudying interior design at
RMIT.
And it just sounded really,really intriguing to me.
Um, and so I just knew thatyeah, I wanted to give it
(28:15):
another go.
So apply it again.
Um, and then that was afour-year course, including like
an honors year.
So that was how they allstacked up.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, it doesn't, yeah.
I mean, I've yeah, as I said,the diploma plus the degree is
six years, it's just wild.
But I was young, it was just,you know, it was fine back then.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, that's it.
You've got all the time in theworld.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah.
So when you graduated, what wasyour next move?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Hmm.
So when I graduated, um, as Ijust mentioned, I'd already
started working, I think at thatpoint, maybe just a day or two
a week for a very, very smallarchitecture practice.
Um, and that kind of came tome.
Uh I think so.
It was crazy, I don't know,it's wild thinking about it in
(29:01):
hindsight.
But the the guy who ran thepractice, he was only a year
older than me at the time.
So I think he he maybe startedit when he was 24 or 25, which I
think is so bold and amazing.
Yeah.
Um just a lot to take on atthat age.
Um, and he had put the word outon probably like Facebook back
(29:23):
then.
Um, and a friend of mine hadsaid, Hey, are you interested in
a part-time job uh in theindustry?
And I knew I'd started thinkingabout next steps in terms of
starting interior design as acareer in that last year of uni.
And I'd identified that Ireally wanted to work for a
(29:43):
small practice so that I couldlearn as many different skills
as possible.
Because what I was hearingabout um going and working for
some of the big firms is thatyou kind of get pigeonholed into
becoming a professional at likewindow scheduling or um yeah,
just something Just that was myown little drawing.
Speaker (30:03):
Oh, really?
That's your drawing.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
The window and door schedule was a nightmare or
drawing toilets.
Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
What do you mean draw?
Oh, just like bathroom.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, if it was like a multi-residential project,
you're and you're the bathroomperson, you're drawing all the
bathrooms.
That type of thing.
You get pigeonholes.
So yeah, you've got to becareful what you want to be good
at.
She's great at toilets.
Get out of the toilets.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
But yeah, I think another one for toilet girl.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, exactly.
What a title.
But that's your that's yournickname.
Speaker (30:44):
Hey, toilet girl.
unknown (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah.
But I think that was goodadvice that you got because
yeah, that was my experience.
You do get kitchen hold.
Speaker (30:54):
Yeah, you can't.
I haven't really thought thatmuch about it, but you're 100%
right.
I guess working in a smallerfirm, you definitely do more
roles because there's only somany of you.
So you have to kind of spreadyourself a bit more across
things, right?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Exactly.
And I think also, and I willsay, well, I was going to say, I
knew that I wanted to start myown practice eventually, but
really it was a little bit of uhencouragement from my parents,
let's call it.
Um, saying, you know, I thinkearly stages they were always
like, you're gonna have your ownpractice, you're gonna have
your own practice.
And I don't think I necessarilyhad the confidence within
(31:31):
myself to have chosen that pathfor myself, even though I'm very
glad that they encouraged me.
It's very nice.
Speaker (31:40):
Yeah.
Um what should they do?
Are they creative?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
No, not creatives.
Uh, I think my dad, well, mydad has definitely creative
sensibilities and um an amazingeye.
He's always collectedincredible furniture pieces and
lighting.
Um, and my mum, yeah, I supposeis creative in her own way in
terms of just engagement in theworld.
(32:05):
But um, yeah, that they bothhave very uh non-creative jobs.
So um yeah, my brother'sactually an illustrator as well.
So we don't really know howwe've got something there.
Yeah, yeah.
I think they they alwaysencouraged us to use our hands
and and our minds and ourimagination.
Um but yeah, I digress.
(32:28):
Circling back to the um yeah,so that they'd sort of
implanted, uh, incepted into myhead that um I would uh have my
own practice.
And so for me, logically, youknow, thinking about the end
goal and thinking about me beinga student, it was like, well,
if I'm gonna eventually start myown practice, then the best
thing I can do is work for asmall practice where I can learn
(32:50):
what that looks like asintimately as possible.
So I was the sole employee forI think probably like a year and
a half working for this guy.
And um, by the time I left,there were I think four staff
members.
Um, so yeah, it was reallydefinitely saw the the good, the
bad, the ugly.
Um yeah, it was it itdefinitely like recognizing that
(33:14):
it was going to be a difficultthing to do starting a small
business, but um yeah,definitely worth it as well.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It sounds like it gave you a bit of a idea of what
you were going to be signing upfor.
So that's that's really agreat, a great lesson.
And I bet you learned so muchin that time.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Oh, so much.
And I went in so chaotic anddisorganized as a person and
like such a mess.
No, it's a I shouldn't say sucha mess, but definitely like a
messy, disorganized person.
And um, and he was really,really um hard about having
(33:54):
everything organized, havingeverything in the correct
folders, um, you know, inAutoCAD, everything had to be
rounded up to the closest fiveor round rounded down, like
whole numbers and just perfect.
And wow, yeah, it was totallyagainst my character.
Um, but without all of thatlearning and that process, I
never would have been able tostart my own practice.
(34:16):
So yeah, just the tools andyeah, what I learned from that
were amazing.
And I think that probably onlycould have come from working um
so closely with the director whowas just instilling all of his
amazing practices.
Like I think if I had steppedinto even a practice of like six
(34:37):
people, say, um, and just beenleft to my own devices, I think,
you know, I probably would havehad like five desktop screens
worth of junk on my screen atall time.
And um, like what's wrong withthat?
Speaker (34:50):
I was gonna say, I wish I actually had that taught to
me that discipline.
I think I have it in theory,but in practice, not so much.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
You're good, Brie.
You're very organized.
I I'm good at the details.
Speaker (35:04):
Not for myself.
It's like more of a personaldisorganization.
Like my head is a million opentabs, and I I am I do I do seem
to be able to manage lots ofthings at the same time, but I
think I'm quite hard on myselfin terms of and I'm messy.
Um, but then I get to a pointwhere I cannot work anymore
(35:27):
until I clean it all up.
Like it's just like I'm a bitchaotic, and then I kind of
bring it all back in.
So I'm not sure.
You have just described me.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You've actually just describedme like perfectly, yeah.
Except, yeah, my folder systemsare great.
Speaker (35:42):
Yes, I do like a good system.
Lose stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, it's annoying when you lose stuff.
Um well, this director that youwere working with, did he come
from a large practice before?
Or did he just Yeah, he he hadworked for larger practice.
Um it sounds like something youlearn in a large practice, like
folder organization and drawingin AutoCAD like so precisely.
Like that's I mean, I'm I'mpretty good at that kind of
(36:07):
organization because that's whatI learned.
So, you know, if you're workingin a large practice and there's
a team of people, you can'tjust like store stuff on your
desktop.
So I'm kind of in the habit oflike having all my files quite
organized.
But um, you know, because it isjust me and my husband and you
know, occasionally we havecontractors, sometimes I get a
little relaxed.
unknown (36:28):
Yeah.
Speaker (36:30):
I think I get I think I get like that when I get um
like w when I'm on deadline,sometimes a lot of the the
organization goes out thewindow, and then I sort of have
to remember to come back and fixit all later because you know
when you're just like jumpingfrom one thing to the other all
the time.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Uh-huh.
Yeah, I definitely go throughthat.
And I'm trying to get better atbeing like, you know what, it
might seem really hard rightnow, but it's going to be more
annoying down the line.
So just get it done now.
Speaker (36:58):
I agree.
I agree.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
But yeah, I think you're right.
Like, yeah, learning those umlessons from larger practice and
then yeah, being able tointegrate them into a smaller
practice um application.
Because yeah, it there is thatformality of the structure um in
terms of yeah, the planning.
Yeah, the planning, the thestoring of information and files
(37:20):
and everything, um, which isyeah, I don't think that it it
is something like intuitive topeople.
No.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
So you worked for this architect for a while.
And what about next?
What was next after that?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
So I was with him for three and a half years.
Um, and I I actually don'tknow, like, yeah, do people sh
speak openly about the the namesof their former workplaces with
you guys?
Or yeah, if you have two.
I'll I'll give a shout out.
So so this was um Alex Lake oftheir four studio.
So they are an architecturepractice.
(37:57):
So I worked with Alex for threeand a half years, and then um,
yeah, also alongside his team.
And then following um the threeand a half years, I just
realized that, you know, theclock was ticking.
Uh, if I and you know, if I didwant to start my own practice,
I just recognized the importanceof getting experience elsewhere
as well.
Um so finished up at the end ofthe year with him, and then the
(38:21):
following year actually wasapplying for jobs around Jan
Feb, and it was just a reallyquiet time.
And um I I couldn't, I wasn'treally hearing back from
practices.
And then I had my firstfreelance project kind of fall
in my lap from a friend who wasan architect um who couldn't
(38:42):
take it on any longer.
Uh, but then as soon as I sortof started those conversations
with this particular client,then I got a call from one of my
like top practices that I'd toppreferences of um practices
that I'd applied for, uh, whichwas if architecture with Eva
Foskia.
So I ended up working for thenext two and a half years, sort
(39:04):
of part-time, alternatinganywhere from between one day to
five days, depending on um whatI was working on as like a
freelancer, and then also kindof what they needed in the
office.
So that was amazing to be ableto do that and kind of like
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And um, you know, removed thelike terror of uh just diving
(39:27):
into something just full-time.
Um, and she was just such anamazing support.
And um, it was actually superinteresting because, well, I
think A, working for a female umbrought, yeah, just like a
whole new world uh and just howa female architect approaches
space, even though I'm sure youknow Eva's way is just unique to
(39:49):
her as well.
But she interestingly had alsoum completed a psychology
undergraduate before she startedarchitecture.
So I think I learned a lot fromher about um, yeah, how to
approach spatial planning from areally different way.
And yeah, I remember just very,very early on um being in a
(40:10):
meeting in a workshop with herwhere we were looking at a floor
plan for some clients' umsketch design.
And and she was like, okay, soimagining that we're walking in
here and you're coming throughthese doors and you've got you
know light coming in from overhere.
And I was like, oh my gosh,I've never like even imagined
myself like stepping into theplan before.
(40:31):
So that was really, reallycool.
Um, and yeah, I learned so muchfrom her as a mentor, and and
she was so encouraging of mestarting my own practice
eventually too.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
That's nice.
It must have been hard for herto let you go, though.
Like sometimes it's like, Iwant you to start your own
practice, but yeah, can you justgive me five more years?
Five more years.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Well, uh, I mean, for better or for worse, it was
actually a pretty easytransition.
I I say easy transition forher, but um, I do know that she
was like, yeah, deeply upset inbreaking the news to me.
But um, I actually was maderedundant uh in COVID because
the first week that we had thestay-at-home order, the big
(41:15):
projects that I was working onat IF Architecture, um, all of
the funding got pulled.
So she called me up in themiddle of the day while I was
working on it.
Um, yeah, so upset.
I think she might have evenbeen in tears saying that she um
didn't have any more work forme.
And, you know, I was justreeling.
But um ultimately it was thebest possible thing that could
(41:37):
have happened.
And um, yeah, and and I'mactually still so friendly with
her, and we're having catch-updrinks next Friday.
So um, yeah, no, all it was itworked out very well.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Oh, it was emotions were running high though,
weren't they?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Like, yeah, it was pretty much globally, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, no one knew what to do or how to respond or
how long things were going to gofor.
So yeah, there were so manyunknowns.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And so since then, have youbeen working solely on your own
practice?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, yeah, which has been amazing.
Um, I will say I did have abrief stint doing some uh
interior stuff for a televisionshow, but that has to remain
confidential.
But that was that was aninteresting little segue.
Um, but yeah, besides that,have been so fortunate that uh
(42:29):
I've been able to just yeah,continue with my own work.
And it has been relatively, youknow, stable in terms of
projects coming in.
There definitely have beenlulls, particularly around like
the summer period and definitelyum yeah, moments where I have
been like, oh God, am I gonna beable to keep this going and
what am I gonna do?
(42:50):
And like, where do you like howdo you have jobs?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then you know, when you'rejust like in crisis mode and
then suddenly you get an emailor a phone call.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Put it out there in the universe, right?
As soon as you think, oh mygod, that job's gonna be
finished soon.
What are we gonna do afterthat?
And then you get an email or anInstagram or something.
Always away.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's just a whole coasterthough.
It's yeah, fully.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
It's like you're so in it, and then you're like, oh
yes, okay, we're getting to theend.
That's exciting.
And then it gets to a point,yeah, it close to the end, and
then you get into the panic oflike, oh, come on.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
All normal stuff, isn't it?
So tell me about the name ofyour studio, Studio Ami.
How did you how did you come upwith that?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Well, it's funny because even to this day, I'm
like, it's it's maybe a bit of astinker.
It was always meant to be a bitof a well, okay.
So for example, uh, or case inpoint, no one knows how to
pronounce it or how it's said.
I got a lot of people saying,um, oh Amy and calling me Amy or
AMI.
(43:57):
Oh, really?
Speaker (43:58):
But I think Lauren just knows because she's she speaks
a little bit of French, don'tyou, Lauren?
Speaker 2 (44:05):
No, not really.
Well, there you go.
Yeah.
So yeah, maybe some people canum yeah, work it out, although
it is very, very rare.
But ultimately, um, you know, Iwas trying to come up with a
business name and didn't want touse just my name.
And I, but also, yeah, wasinterested in maybe like plays
(44:28):
upon that.
So then I was thinking aboutjust various ways in which I
could use the let um the wordsin my name, you know, in in my
names as an acronym in some way.
Um, and yeah, Anouska MilsteinInteriors uh and reading that as
AMI and then thinking aboutclever.
(44:49):
I think I just immediately sawthe ties there between kind of
how I wanted to practice, whichfrom the very beginning I
imagined as a really likecollaborative process with
people.
And um, yeah, I think when youguys first reached out and we
had a brief chat, I mentioned toyou that I'd just seen, and I
(45:09):
should say that this wasn't um,you know, something that was uh
happening in the practices thatI was working for, but within
the industry, I was observingthat it was very commonplace
that projects would end.
And, you know, even if theclients were happy, there will
have there would have been likea lot of tension that would have
arisen on site.
And often there were kind offractured relationships.
(45:30):
And um, and yeah, even with theclients happy with the final
outcome, often they would belike a bit miffed and yeah,
there'd just be these like,yeah, something would have
happened that um, or the processmaybe just um had been one
where the clients just were leftfeeling not great, whether it
was with the builder or the thedesigner.
(45:51):
And I was just like, well, howdo I break that?
Yeah, how can I make it so thatit's fun and they feel really
connected and comfortable withme and kind of yeah, just like I
guess sort of I I guess Iwanted to word I'm looking for,
I guess just mess with like thehierarchies.
Um I think that yeah, likepeople come to you as a designer
(46:15):
because they they feel thatthey're lacking in in their
ability to do something withtheir homes or their businesses
or whatever.
And so I think they often cometo you kind of feeling a little
bit embarrassed almost.
Um, and I think that yeah, whenyou if you're able to be like,
you know, I'm not a threat hereand I'm not above you, like we
(46:39):
can just be working togetherhand in hand, and I can be the
this person who ultimately myrole is just to support you in
making the decisions that youwant to make and kind of reshape
um their perspective and uh ofthe dynamic, I guess.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
That's beautiful.
And I agree, like, you know,we've sort of talked about that
a little bit as well, in termsof when you're working in
residential interior design, youknow, you get quite, you know
your clients quite intimatelyand how they want to live their
lives.
So I heard actually it wasSimone Haig say the other day,
um, friant, friend client.
I was like, oh, that's cute.
(47:16):
Um, you know, I don't know.
I mean, I I do see some of myclients sometimes out on a
social level.
But I I when I started mybusiness, I was like, okay, I
have to be seen as like thisprofessional person.
And there's that that in theindustry, it's very much we need
to look like how how do how dowe want to be perceived?
And it's more like how do wewant to be perceived amongst our
(47:38):
peers rather than actuallyclients, which is really common.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
So true.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Where I was like, lately in thelast few years, I guess, I've
leaned into that being a morerelaxed relationship.
And it's I find it sointeresting because I get to
know my clients, and a lot ofthem, they're just from such
completely different worlds, aswe've sort of said before as
well.
And it's just fascinating.
And you know, some of them arejust I admire them so much in
(48:06):
what they do, like theseamazing, you know, women that
have these really stressfulcareers, and I'm just so
motivated to make their homelike this tranquil, peaceful,
restful, organized, practicalspace for them because they're
just they're just queens.
Like you're amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Totally.
I've had a few of those.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
They're cool.
So yeah, I think it's nice, youknow, studio ami and the the
French word for friend, it'skind of like subtle, but it's a
nice like little reference toyour whole approach.
And I think I read on yourwebsite, or where did I read
that you meet your clients likewith a hug?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
No, that was something that I just shared
with you guys.
Um yeah, you said yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's an interestingone.
And um, it was something thatso in in my first year of
working on my own, I'd sort ofI'd had it instilled in me from
um previous workplaces, youknow, I guess having this formal
level of formality and um sortof maintaining a a bit of a
(49:10):
physical boundary with clients.
But I and for me, like I I'vealways been a big hugger and uh
um been like quite familiar withpeople pretty quickly.
And what I was just finding wasI it just felt like when I was
saying hello and goodbye toclients, you know, even after
working with them for a year,there would just be this
(49:31):
perceivable for me, like thisthe space between us just felt
so big.
And so I felt like I, it wassomething that I was really
noticing and it felt that Iwasn't being authentic to who I
am.
And I was thinking, you know,as I was starting to build
confidence with my my practiceand my abilities, I wanted to
make who I was showing up.
(49:52):
The version of myself showingup as my work self to be more
aligned with just like megenerally, um, or me, you know,
at home or with my friends orwhatever, uh, obviously within
limits.
But I think there also for mecame this curiosity in um, and I
think it probably comes frompsychology and an understanding
of body language, just how do Ihow do I use these like subtle
(50:16):
tools to kind of disarm peopleand um and kind of like break
down barriers that might be inplace that might not be so
obvious?
Um, so you know, if someone ismaybe feeling a little bit
guarded or shy, the ability tobe able to say, you know, and
and I never do it when I firstmeet them, but once they're on
(50:36):
board, and usually when theycome in for the first
presentation, I'll greet themand be like, Can I give you a
hug?
And I've never been knockedback to this day, touch wood.
But you never know.
Like, I think you do need to berespectful of, you know, and
and that's why I do ask forconsent initially, because I
think that's important, andunderstanding that people, yeah,
again, as I've said, have theirdifferent stories and
(50:56):
backgrounds and limits.
But yeah, I think just thatbreaking that physical boundary
and having that like sense oftouch and like connection with
someone, I think goes so hand inhand with inviting someone into
your home or inviting someoneinto your personal space and
feeling comfortable with them.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
That's so touching.
Speaker (51:15):
That's amazing.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
That's lovely.
Um what do you do, Bri?
Are you a hugger?
Speaker (51:20):
Um, I think I read the person and decide.
I think it's great to ask, butsometimes you kind of know as
well, like that it's one ofthose moments.
So I don't know about when Iwhen I very first meet them.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think it's a case-by-casebasis, but I am a hugger in
general.
(51:41):
Like I'm definitely uh openinga friendly person.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah.
I mean, I can see that fully.
And it's interesting that yousay that, like, yeah, with your,
you know, you're reading them.
And, you know, I wouldencourage you to maybe challenge
that because my experience hasbeen that the clients who
initially come across as likequite reserved and maybe don't
feel like they're it seems likethey're not very confident in
(52:06):
expressing, I don't know,whether it's their emotions or
their thoughts or what or whathave you, or maybe come across
as quite shy.
I I almost always find thatlike once the hug has happened,
um, once we've like crossedthat, then suddenly you just
like really see that soften andlike that opening and um yeah,
that that sort of ease comingin.
Speaker (52:26):
It's a bit like what, yeah, it's fit like what you
said before, showing them thatyou're no threat.
Like there's it it it theboundaries aren't well, there's
boundaries, but you know, theycan be open and I guess a little
bit vulnerable with you, whichis kind of important if you're
gonna do your job, right?
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Yeah, yeah.
I think you're so right there.
Just this message that, youknow, like you're safe with me.
And I'm like, I'm actually likehere to hold you in this
process.
Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yeah, I love that.
That's so touching.
I'm not gonna start holdingtheir hands, but that's only
after maybe six months or so.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
I mean, like skip through the site joyfully
together.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Yeah, that would be nice.
But to be honest with you aswell, I think a lot of clients
look at interior design websitesor look at somebody's presence
on Instagram and they're scared.
They're scared to reach out,they're intimidated.
And I feel like that's reallyalmost a um, it's a real clash
to what we do because we'reliterally in their walking
(53:31):
robes, we're in their ensuites,they're we're in their very
private spaces.
They should feel reallydisarmed, as you say.
And also tell me what youthink, tell me the feedback.
Am I on the right track?
Sometimes clients if they feellike they can't speak to you
honestly.
And I don't know, I I want toknow, like, tell me, tell me a
thing.
Speaker (53:51):
You know, you'll get the sort of agreeable meeting,
and then you'll get the 24 hourslater.
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Oh my god, it's that's a classic.
Yeah.
Speaker (54:01):
Oh, actually, I've thought about it, and because I
don't think they've maybe gotthe confidence to say what they
want to say in in the meeting.
And maybe we're maybe sometimeswe're so confident about what
we're presenting.
And they I know I've definitelyhad gorgeous clients who've
gone, I just didn't really wantto offend you.
Like your house.
Speaker 3 (54:21):
I know, I know.
Speaker (54:22):
I don't have to live there.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
If only we hugged them at the first meeting.
Oh, that's so sweet.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Oh, yeah.
I want to give you a hug now.
Soon, soon, yeah.
The shame about a podcastenvironment, I guess.
Um but yeah, I think you're soyeah, I think what like to to
what you just described, Brie,like I think for for me to be
able to give them this sense ofsecurity and and feel as
(54:51):
comfortable as they can do toexpress their their um yeah,
their true feelings, even justunderstanding that when we can
when we sit with things overtime that opinions can change.
But yeah, like in meetings, Isay to my clients at the
beginning, if you see somethingthat you just instantly feel
that you love or hate, I wouldlove to know.
Otherwise, feel comfortable tojust sit with this and I'll send
(55:14):
it to you and you can let meknow in your own time.
And also just letting them knowthat, yeah, there's there's no
such thing as a dumb question.
You know, I think so oftenthey're like, oh, but yeah, I
think for me it's like, well, ifyou if my clients feel
comfortable to ask the reasoningbehind certain decisions in the
design, then it gives me theopportunity to sort of paint the
(55:38):
the backstory and the approachof why I think it's the right
choice for them.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
And I think it's a really good idea to guide
clients as to how to givefeedback, you know, as to what
you're saying.
And I've said that to clientstoo.
Like if if you don't likesomething, if you like
something, feel free to say onthe spot.
But if you need a minute tomake up your mind, let's catch
up in another week or so.
Because you can't just say atthe end, so did you like it?
Like it's too open-ended.
(56:04):
Yeah, you need to guide them.
And we get frustrated when wedon't get the right feedback
that we want, but we haven'tasked them to give it to us.
Speaker (56:13):
So sorry, Brie.
So true.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Yeah.
And that and that is actuallysomething that I try to do,
yeah, and have tried toimplement more and more is
using, and and and I have umstaff now, which is amazing.
Using my staff members andmyself in meetings to really
observe our clients and theirbody language and their maybe
like silent reactions to things.
(56:38):
And then we and any sort oflittle comments or reactions
that come up, um, we will alwayssend through our presentations
alongside anything that wediscussed, and then, you know,
and and kind of like gentlyquestion or query, you know, say
we sense that maybe there wassome apprehension or a bit of
hesitation when we showed this.
(57:00):
And I think that that just likeopens up for them this sort of
comfortable environment for themto express it.
And look, sometimes it's amisread, but yeah, I also have
to be like, sometimes I'd, youknow, I'm not gonna get it right
every time as well.
But um trying to yeah, tryingto give them that um that
openness or that's yeah, thatcomfortability to express that.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
I think it shows you care as well.
Speaker 2 (57:23):
Yeah, that's it's part of the trust thing as well.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Yeah, yeah, come back to the trust thing.
So before we wrap up, tell us abit, yeah, about you mentioned
you've got a team.
So who have you got in yourteam?
Speaker 2 (57:35):
Uh so the team has fluctuated a little bit this
year.
I did have uh uh one greatgirl, Elle Ross, working for me
for four and a half years, whichwas a very long stint.
And she wrapped up, oh, whenwould it have been?
I think uh May, maybe May orJune.
Uh I had a girl join me full asa full-timer called Mari Paul,
(57:59):
and she's um yeah, a brilliantdesigner, uh, actually living
here from France.
And she was running her ownpractice over there, which yeah,
she's out with her partner on apartner visa.
So very sadly, know that uhit's not going to be a very long
or super long engagement, butshe's amazing.
Cool.
Um, and then I have a studenttwo days a week.
(58:20):
Oh, actually, now as of thisweek, three days a week.
Oh, wow, that's cool.
Yeah, I mean, it's definitelyhaving staff is really, really
hard because supporting, youknow, being the person
responsible for someone'slivelihood means that you're
you're constantly having to makedecisions for the business with
that filter.
But it's also so rewarding.
(58:41):
Yeah, like being able to, youknow, have conversations with
someone.
And and yeah, I mean, havingthe support, even from being in
a meeting with clients and beinglike, what do you think they
actually thought about that?
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Yeah, just to bounce ideas with someone.
Cause yeah, what did what wasyour read?
Did they like it or do youthink they didn't like it?
You know, it's somebody elsethat was there.
Yeah, that would be so nice.
So good, Anouska.
Thank you so much for such agreat chat.
I just found that just reallymuch fun.
Speaker (59:11):
I feel like I've learned a bit.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
I know.
And vice versa.
It was so great to um, yeah,dive deep into those topics and
yeah, think about them um morecomprehensively and yeah, get
your ideas on things too.
Speaker 1 (59:24):
Oh, well, I think you know, the clients must be just
so thrilled to work with you,they must have the best time.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
I hope so.
That's the yeah, that's theintent.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
Yeah.
Thanks, Anouska.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
We've got the utmost respectfor the Wurundjeri people of the
Kulin Nation.
They're the OG custodians ofthis unceded land and its
waters, where we set up shop,create, and call home and come
to you from this podcast today.
A big shout out to all of theamazing elders who have walked
(59:58):
before us, those listening.
Leading the way in the present,and the emerging leaders who
will carry the torch into thefuture.
We're just lucky to be on thisjourney together.
Welcome to Design Anatomy, the Interior Design
podcast hosted by friends andfellow designers, me, Bree
Banfield.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
And me, Lauren Li, with some amazing guest
appearances along the way.
We're here to break downeverything from current trends
to timeless style.
Speaker (00:15):
With a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled and
lived-in spaces, we're veryexcited to share our insights
and inspiration with you.
And today we have a verytalented designer joining us.
It's Anouska from Studio A.mi.
, right?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yes.
Speaker (00:33):
Yeah.
But welcome.
We're so thrilled to have youwith us today to have a chat.
Thank you for having me.
Excited to be.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So cool.
I know.
Well, Anouska, I think I firstmet you when we were invited to
this gorgeous lunch that umLauren Egan organized.
So a fellow podcast of theDesign Anatomy guest.
And she yeah, she broughttogether just like a gorgeous
table of women in interiordesign.
(01:00):
And I just remember meetingyou, and I was like, oh my gosh,
Anouska, you're so nice.
Like you were just so warm andgorgeous.
And then we met at the uhLyceum Club as well.
Um, and then we just littlechats on Insta here and there.
So it's like nice to get toknow you a little bit more.
Speaker (01:17):
Yeah, everything's gonna be new to me today because
I don't really know you at all.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah.
And vice versa, yeah.
It's a great way to kick it alloff.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And I guess, like, you know, when I look at your
work, I love it.
It has like that Frenchsensibility, like beautiful
layered, rich materials and justan overall vibe that is very
chic.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So um it's a huge compliment.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, it's really cool.
So I guess um I'm curious toknow um because on your website
you said that you studiedpsychology before interior
design.
So, how how did you get intointerior design?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And how did all of that it's a good question
because yeah, in some ways it'sa a massive uh change, but and
uh as we have discussed inothers, there are definitely a
lot of crossovers.
But ultimately it came down to,and I actually really remember
the moment clearly.
Um, I was studying for end ofthird year, so my undergraduate
(02:22):
um statistics exam, and it waslike 11 o'clock at night, and I
was trying to basically getthrough a semester's worth of
slides because I never went tothe um stats lectures because I
hated it.
And I just thought to myself,am I really because when you
finish the undergraduate, Iwanted to be a clinical site.
When you finish theundergraduate, then you need to
(02:44):
do a postgrad.
And that's like another fewyears of um studying and a lot
of it statistics.
And I just thought to myself,do I really want to be doing
this?
And I'd always been creativelyinclined.
And I thought, well, what if Ithink about, you know, I'm still
young, what if I think aboutsomething else, trying another
course where I'm pursuingsomething creative and yeah,
(03:05):
naively thought that uh interiordesign could be the way to
riches as well.
But you know, that's a work inprogress.
Speaker (03:12):
People do have that impression, don't they?
I feel like there's thatimpression, and we're like, no,
we're all broke.
Yeah, it's like we're doingbeautiful projects with gorgeous
things in them.
But come to our houses, well,maybe not all of us, come to our
houses, you know, and it's IKEAand things that broke on a
chute.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Oh god, yeah, four, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mistake orders, an extra fastone extra while in bed.
Speaker (03:37):
We've got a few of those, haven't you?
Definitely have a couple ofthose.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Um, but yeah, I did I did actually like I literally
was sitting in my room and thenI'm looking around me and
looking.
So at the time I was stillliving with uh my mum and we'd
just moved into a new house.
I grew up, you know, my parentsmoved around a lot.
Um still largely just withinMelbourne, but lots and lots of
rentals.
And it had always fascinated meto see them kind of like pick
(04:05):
up their lives as represented bythe objects and furniture that
they'd collected, um, and thenrearrange them and transform
these shells.
And so I was sort ofcontemplating that and
contemplating the fact that I'dkind of inherited their love of
doing that.
And so I was like, hmm, whatabout interior design?
And and Googled it.
And um, yeah, I mean,interestingly, I've ended up
(04:27):
much more in a path of uhinterior sort of architecture,
but also furnishings.
Like I think initially I was Ionly understood interior design
to be more the decoration, butum yeah, that's how it came to
be.
And I just the first coursethat came up on Google was um
what I applied for.
Wow.
Speaker (04:46):
Good old Google leading the way.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
To be honest with you, like the first AI.
I didn't know that statisticswould be such a big part of
psychology either.
So I think that's fair to bekind of you know, you enroll
into a course and you go, youactually study it and go, This
is not what I signed up for,looking at stats all day.
I did not think that would be,but yeah, I don't know anything
(05:12):
about it.
Speaker (05:13):
I also find it interesting.
I don't know, I I'm not sure ifyou're the same, Lauren, but
like I was really interested indoing um psychology.
And I wonder if there's ifthere's a bit of a crossover
with creative brains.
And it's not the I I've heardother interior designers also,
and I think we know even atleast one or two that have moved
over from psychology intointeriors.
(05:35):
So there must be some weird, Idon't know, left brain, right
brain crossover thing.
But then when it comes down to,I think I was the same, I was
like, that and lore, I actuallyreally was law, psychology, and
acting were the three things Iwanted to do.
It's cool.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I mean, that's kind of all in interior design.
Speaker (05:57):
Yeah, well, absolutely.
But um, I realized that the lawand the psychology part would
be very heavy on the study andthe the texts, and I and it's
not my strong point.
I was really interested inthem, but I knew I couldn't do
that all the time.
I would probably go crazy.
So yeah, it's funny though.
I just I just feel like it'sjust not the first time I've
(06:19):
heard that um that crossoverfrom interiors to psychology or
vice versa.
Yeah, we definitely do need itthough, don't we?
Psychology and interiors.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Oh yeah.
Well, I mean, that's what I'mI'm kind of curious to yeah, ask
you, like with your psychologystudies, has any of that sort of
helped you with your interiordesign practice?
Do you psychoanalyse yourclients?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, not getting them on the couch.
Well, not in that sense anyway.
Eventually, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but um, but yeah, I thinklike the the basic principles of
psycho like psychologicalpractice, um or psych yeah, is
the sort of the main things areum observe, explain, predict,
(07:06):
and then change or improve.
So I think like using thosefoundations and then you start
when you think about theparallel with um interior
design.
So, you know, you start offwith the observations, you're
going into clients' homes a lotof the time, or their existing
businesses, and you're takingthose in and you're having
conversations with them.
And I guess like starting togather a bit of a uh a backstory
(07:31):
for yourself of who they are asit is.
And then I guess the explainelement comes into um uh like
their history, so why they livethe way that they live, why
their tastes are the way thatthey are.
And so you're starting to getinto their minds and be like,
okay, well, I can kind of see,you know, yeah, why they have
(07:53):
been drawn to these decisions inthe past.
I think the predict is, youknow, not only predicting what
their reactions to certainthings that you're proposing to
them might be, but then I alsothink a prediction of um how
they will use space.
So, you know, when I thinkabout joining planning, for
example, um, yeah, just thinkingabout their flow in life as it
(08:16):
is and thinking about, well,what's going to be most
comfortable for them as well?
Because you can't, yeah.
Sometimes you I sometimes Ithink the inclination is to take
people to a place that's likeway too far from their reality.
So you have to be realisticabout that.
And then that flows into thethe change and improve
ultimately.
(08:36):
So yeah, how can you facilitatethese um these positive changes
uh through their design spaces?
Yeah.
Speaker (08:45):
It's fascinating.
Exactly interior design whenyou pick it down like that,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I would love to like frame, yeah, I would love to
frame a whole design processaround that.
Yeah, totally.
You know, it's sort of like ina way it sort of speaks into
their language, like anybody canunderstand that.
So oh, how clever.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, it's interesting observing the
crossovers.
And I think, yeah, yeah, no,it's um just yeah, so so
similar.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, and I think that's the thing as well.
Like sometimes clients want usto um, okay, so this is my
space, like what's the design?
And you can't, well, I can'tjust say, Oh, this is the answer
because you can't just getthere from A to Z.
You've got to go through all ofthose points, you know, like so
what can you explain?
Can you just say what they wereagain?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Um, yeah, so in order, observe.
Yeah, observe, explain,explain, predict, and then
change slash improve.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Oh, cool.
And that's the thing, like youcan't like almost you can't
diagnose when you don't havethat.
Um when you when you you can'tobserve.
Yeah, you can't you can't givethem that, I guess,
prescription, which is like thatend result when you don't have
all of that knowledge and it'sso much of a more richer space
(10:08):
when you can really understand,you know, how the client lives.
And yeah, I think that was aninteresting point that you said
you can't always you might havethis great idea, but you have to
predict that's going to push ittoo far for them, and they're
not they might they might notlike that.
Yeah.
Speaker (10:23):
It's a really good explanation of yeah, how how we
do have to work as as designers.
It it's making me think of um Iused to dabble sometimes on the
answering questions on theDulux chat, you know, like when
you get the little chat thingand they ask you questions, or
they'd do like sessions wherepeople could ask questions and
you'd get people saying thingslike, What color should I paint
(10:45):
my lounge room?
That was all the information.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh no.
And you'd be like, Yeah, I'm ajust a little more would be
great.
Speaker (10:56):
Just a little.
It's the same thing thatLauren's saying is like, you
know, we do have clients whothink we can just walk into a
space and go, this we could walkinto a space and go, well, this
is how you should do it.
But for it to work for thatperson, you have to have all
those steps in place to properlyunderstand, right?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's one thing, youknow, I I think most of us in
our profession, we have we wouldhave the ability to enter any
space.
Like I'm just thinking, forexample, if we were to have an
engagement with a developer andthey're like, we just want to
create beautiful spaces thathave mass appeal, then I think
we would all be able to do thatto, you know, a beautiful level.
But then, yeah, where myinterest lies and how I've sort
(11:36):
of been growing my business iswell, how do I make it feel
really personal to the client?
And yeah, I'm sure that thatapproach is also common for a
lot of others.
Speaker (11:47):
Um, I was gonna say it sort of leads into that question
of trust too.
So I think when you're able togo through those steps with a
client, you it is a way of kindof building trust with them
because you're showing that youneed to understand them and
you're exchanging, you know,ideas and conversations.
Is that is that the way youwould do it in terms of building
(12:09):
up trust with a client so they,you know, really are invested
in in what you're telling themor what's that process like?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah.
I mean, trust is such a complexone because I think that people
do have, you know, well,everyone has their own story.
And I think that, you know, alot of people, I mean, buzzword
traumas of their past, um, youknow, even if they are really
mild.
And so I think that, yeah,going into meeting clients and
um and just being aware thattrust might be something that
(12:38):
can be quite difficult for themand being really sensitive to
that and sort of dipping yourtoes in lightly and um and
testing the waters.
But I think, you know, it itreally just um starts with
building rapport and I thinkjust showing, or in my opinion
anyway, on from my experience,giving clients a bit of a sense
(12:58):
of who you are as a person,asking them a lot of questions
and making them feel reallydeeply heard.
And then yeah, I guess like ajust a big part of rapport is
just finding that common ground.
And so, you know, if they aretelling you, you know, if you
ask questions and they'retelling you a story, and then if
you can bring in something fromyour past that can relate to
(13:21):
that without, you know, givingthem too much information, but
just that that relatability, Ithink just um helps immediately
uh bring those, bring that senseof connection.
Apparently, actually back topsychology for a second.
Apparently, there's something,and that this was so many years
ago that I studied psychologynow, so I can't remember exactly
what it is.
But apparently in our brains,um, when we're communicating
(13:45):
with people and we find commonground, there's actually like a
positive hormone that'sreleased.
I can't remember which one itis.
So that's that's what actuallycreates bonds, um, emotional
bonds.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
So there's science to back it.
But I also think that, youknow, what you're saying is um I
like what you said.
People want to feel seen andheard.
And, you know, what you weretalking about, observe, explain,
predict, and change or make itbetter, that's something that
I've never heard taught in termsof interior design.
And I feel like, you know, wewe learn the design process and
(14:19):
all of this, you know, theelements of principles of design
or whatever.
But so much a part of the workwe do is listening to clients.
And I think being curious, likeBrie and I have talked about
that before.
And I think that's why youprobably, you know, psychology,
just curious about people andinterior design, curious about
people, but it's I'm curiousabout how people live and um
(14:42):
yeah, kind of leaning into that.
And I think, you know, whatdrives me crazy is when I hear
an interior designer say to aclient, it'll look great, just
trust me.
And I'm like, how can you askthat?
I feel like it's a reallyunfair request to say to a
client, just trust me.
Like you need to build thattrust, you need to earn it.
Speaker (15:00):
You do have to earn it.
Yeah.
You do.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And yeah, we have experience and you might have
won awards and all of that'samazing.
But the client needs to feelseen and heard.
And I feel like that is one ofthe keys in trust.
And I love what you said aboutthat relatability as well.
And I mean, a lot of my clientsare from such a different world
than our pretty aestheticbubble of design.
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
(15:23):
You know, but you candefinitely find common ground on
some things, and it could bejust sort of an an overworld, an
overall worldview that you sortof feel like you have something
in common, or it could be assomething quite as tangible as
I've got three kids, you've gotthree kids, where do the school
bags go?
And they're like, oh my God, Iknow, and the lunch boxes, and
(15:44):
you know, they want to dive intothose details.
And and I think that's why it'sso great that there is a
designer out there for everyclient.
Not every everyone's the rightfit for every other client as
well.
And sometimes you just click sowell with people, and sometimes
you just might not, and that'sokay as well.
So would you mind if we wentback into that night where you
(16:07):
were Googling interior designand then you signed up to the
course?
How what happened?
Like, how did you what happenedafter you you finished up?
Did you complete thatpsychology degree or did you
just throw in the towel thatnight?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
No, I did.
Well, actually, I actually wenton to fail that statistics
subject.
But by that point, by thatpoint, I had already signed up
and been accepted into aninterior design course.
So I did my first year ofinterior design with it still
making up for that onestatistics class, but finished
(16:43):
the undergraduate.
Um, I will be like fulltransparency.
They actually gave me a 51%.
No, no, no, no.
I think it's because I thinkit's funny.
They gave me a 51% on thatexam.
And I'm like, surely they justwanted to get me through.
And they were just Yes, just bya hair.
I probably failed again if I'mbeing honest.
(17:05):
But yeah, got the undergraduatedone and um, yeah, and then
went on to crazily do actuallyfive years of interior design
studies, which um yeah, I thinkI'm so grateful for the course
that I did, um, which was atRMIT because it was highly
conceptual.
And I think that really umhelped build the foundation of
yeah, my interest in interiordesign and sort of building
(17:28):
concept up.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Was it what you expected the course?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
It was the furthest thing from what I expected.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I thought you were gonna say that.
That's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Um, I think it was probably like it not until I
don't need to be sensitive.
I'm like conscious of what I'msaying.
Um, I don't want to put my footinto a remarkable course.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, I I think it's very common though.
That's why I asked.
A lot of people sign up for thedegree, and I've done the
diploma, which is exactly whatyou expect.
It's waving around fabric andcolours and talking about that.
But the degree didn't touch afabric.
And I know a lot of people werequite confused.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, I think um definitely leaving the degree it
was like, how on earth do Ieven begin to do this as a
practical in practicalapplication?
But I think the value I mean,yeah, I think there's a bit of
an expectation in there um fromthe university that you start to
sort of work part-timesomewhere.
And so that's building thatbecause they see that their role
(18:30):
is more so how do we give youthe tools that you need to think
in a different way?
Definitely.
Yeah.
I mean So yeah, when you'redesigning, oh sorry, like
moments where it's like 2 a.m.
and you're working on a projectwhere you're like designing um
a house that needs to fit intothe palm of your hand made of
like bark or something, andyou're like, what is happening?
(18:50):
But then ultimately you canunderstand, you know, like how
your mind was pushed to think ina really different way is
actually an incredible tool.
And I think that's one of theamazing things about university,
just learning how to think.
Speaker (19:04):
Yeah, when else do you get to really, really do that?
You know, explore all thoseideas and be really conceptual.
That's kind of the time to doit, isn't it?
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And I also think that those, that kind of way of
thinking is something that'sreally hard to learn on YouTube.
You know, you could you couldlearn some of the more practical
stuff on YouTube, right?
You could learn how to useSketchUp, you can learn how to
do all that stuff.
But that is so that's that'samazing that they can yeah,
(19:36):
really change the way that youthink.
And yeah, I remember one of thefirst assignments we had to do.
Um, I did the degree atSwingburn, was um you had to
build a 30 by 30 centimeter cubeand there had to be something
that happened and a reaction andthen an end.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Like I was like, but what interior design and you're
just spinning out, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, but it was so it was amazing.
Like, yeah, the the way theyget you to think so.
It's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, like super challenging, but um, yeah, so so
uh fascinating.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess with your projects,have you um sort of been in the
midst of a project and thought,oh, I'm getting a bit stuck here
or something, and thought, oh,I I actually really need to
learn lean on something that Ilearned in my psychology
studies, or is it sort of quiteintegrated in your approach?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I think more so if I do find myself in that place,
um, you know, in sort of laterin the design process, um, I'll
go back to just the early stagesof the project and I'll read
back through my clients'responses to like early stage
questionnaires that I sendthrough.
(20:52):
And these are some, these arelike a more recent tool that
I've developed in the last coupmaybe like two years and the
constantly evolving, just umkind of onboarding
questionnaires where I'm tryingto gauge as much information of
that um from them as possible.
And it's from that that willI'll do like my initial concept,
which is building a story anddoing initial mood boards.
(21:15):
And what I find is just if I'mstuck later in the design
process, going back to thoselike the initial concept
presentation and thequestionnaire often has the
answers within and kind ofredirects things.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, sometimes you need to refresh and think, oh,
hang on, what what were we doingagain?
Like, what was the vibe?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
So yeah, and I think just going back to the core of
yeah, the genesis of it all.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah.
So in your questionnaire, is ituh what kind of questions is
it?
Is it more like how do you liveor is it like what is your
least favorite colour?
Is it specific stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
There definitely is the least favorite colour.
It's a handy question.
Because I think it's important.
Yeah, yeah, because you oh, Godforbid, you you know, yeah.
I've definitely had earlystages presentations where I was
really thought I'd had itnailed with the colour, and
they're like, I actually hatethat colour and have my whole
life.
Speaker (22:10):
Oh my god, recently where um I've presented and
there was like I was like reallyhappy with it.
I thought I'd nailed it, andthen there was just a bit of
crickets, you know, when you getthe crickets and like that's
never good.
And they're just and kind ofjust poker faces, and I'm like
going, oh Jesus, this is notgood.
And it was literally just acolour.
(22:31):
Like I was like, we reallydon't like this particular
colour, and I'm like, oh great,I just based the whole thing
out.
I know.
Yeah, so flash.
Sometimes I don't tell youuntil and so if you don't ask
specifically, but I've alsoasked specifically and then
gotten an answer and then gonedown a track where they've gone,
well, no, I don't like this orwhatever.
(22:53):
Sometimes clients don't knowwhat they don't like until they
see it.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Definitely.
Or they think they know thatthey don't like a colour in
certain applications, but thenthey can't even visualize it,
you know, on a cushion orsomething yet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think definitely afew of those questions to try
and weed out on it.
I will try to avoid thepossibility of going too far
(23:20):
down one rabbit hole that justisn't going to work from them.
But the the evolution that hasreally happened in these
questionnaires, um, I will say Ithe initial one was built off
one from my former work place,which was actually an
architecture practice and wasgenerously shared with me by my
former boss.
Um, and that was really aboutum planning and you know, things
(23:44):
like do you prefer a doublesink in your kitchen and like
mixer taps and um yeah,integrated dishwasher, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
But then yeah, I started tothink, you know, as as my um
business has grown and it'sbecome so much more about
interrogating, interrogating isnot the right word, asking a lot
(24:05):
of questions, curiosity, um,and totally.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Totally an interrogation.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Well, yeah, a soft and slow interrogation.
Um yeah, just trying to think,okay, well, how can I start to
bring those questions into thequestionnaires as well?
So um, and and start to, Iguess, uh pull out from their
histories.
So there's questions like um,do you have a place that you've
(24:32):
ever stayed on a on a holidaytrip that really uh stuck has
stuck with you?
Um, and then that's somethingthat we can talk to.
Or um another example isthere's a lot of questions
surrounding um like uh sensorialexperiences of spaces and even
like tactility of things.
(24:53):
Like, are there any fabricsthat you love the feeling of?
Are there any fabrics that areunpleasant to you?
Um and you know, thinking aboutoh, another actually like a
really great one that I'veintroduced kind of more recently
as well, is um, once I have anunderstanding of each of their
rooms that we'll be working on,I asked them to give me three
(25:14):
words to describe how they wantto feel in each room.
And that's actually beenprobably the strongest guiding
star to keep going back to when,yeah, because I feel like we if
you're starting with just likea mood and a feeling, um, that's
really powerful and that's areally great place to build a
(25:35):
visual story from.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, I've actually asked a client that before.
Oh, how do you want your spaceto feel?
And they just looked at me likeI had two heads.
They were like they had neverthought about it before.
They'd never thought about it.
So I think that's you know,it's a it's a good one with the
questionnaire.
And I've some clients I usethem, sometimes I don't.
Sometimes it feels like toomuch homework if they're so
(26:00):
busy.
And sometimes I'll print it outand we'll sort of go through it
together.
But you know, it is um it is ablend of yeah, those more
feeling and emotion questionswith the do you prefer a mixer
tap or a but sometimes clientsagain, they've never even
thought about mixer tap versuswall-mounted versus bench
mounted or whatever.
(26:20):
And you have to actually uhunpack that with them in real
time, like go to a showroom andthis is what an integrated uh
dishwasher looks like.
This is a dish drawer.
This is a so it's it's kind ofyeah, you it's not like that
that's the end questionnaire.
We've not we know all theanswers now.
It's like just an ongoing, anongoing process and it's fun.
(26:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker (26:47):
And each project's so different that you kind of
uncover more questions sometimesthat you might not have asked
before.
Um, yeah.
Or some are irrelevant, Iguess, too.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, no, definitely over time, just seeing, well,
actually, I don't think thatthese qu like this question is
serving much, so I'll get rid ofthat.
But then in this last project,I really wish that I had known
this.
So I'm gonna bring that intothe questionnaire.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
So okay, sorry for jumping around, but so you
studied for five years.
And did that include like an uha work placement year or
something?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
No, I uh it was a bit silly of me.
I didn't um yeah, I didn'tactually start working at a
practice until I think like thelast six months of my studies.
But no, full disclosure, Iactually didn't get into the
course that I first applied toat first, um, or my first
preference.
So I I studied a year, um Istudied a year at Swinburne,
(27:53):
which was a great course.
Um, and that, but that was verykind of more architecturally
focused with the interiordesign.
And by at that point, I just II had a couple of friends who
um, or people I knew who werestudying interior design at
RMIT.
And it just sounded really,really intriguing to me.
Um, and so I just knew thatyeah, I wanted to give it
(28:15):
another go.
So apply it again.
Um, and then that was afour-year course, including like
an honors year.
So that was how they allstacked up.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, it doesn't, yeah.
I mean, I've yeah, as I said,the diploma plus the degree is
six years, it's just wild.
But I was young, it was just,you know, it was fine back then.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, that's it.
You've got all the time in theworld.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah.
So when you graduated, what wasyour next move?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Hmm.
So when I graduated, um, as Ijust mentioned, I'd already
started working, I think at thatpoint, maybe just a day or two
a week for a very, very smallarchitecture practice.
Um, and that kind of came tome.
Uh I think so.
It was crazy, I don't know,it's wild thinking about it in
(29:01):
hindsight.
But the the guy who ran thepractice, he was only a year
older than me at the time.
So I think he he maybe startedit when he was 24 or 25, which I
think is so bold and amazing.
Yeah.
Um just a lot to take on atthat age.
Um, and he had put the word outon probably like Facebook back
(29:23):
then.
Um, and a friend of mine hadsaid, Hey, are you interested in
a part-time job uh in theindustry?
And I knew I'd started thinkingabout next steps in terms of
starting interior design as acareer in that last year of uni.
And I'd identified that Ireally wanted to work for a
(29:43):
small practice so that I couldlearn as many different skills
as possible.
Because what I was hearingabout um going and working for
some of the big firms is thatyou kind of get pigeonholed into
becoming a professional at likewindow scheduling or um yeah,
just something Just that was myown little drawing.
Speaker (30:03):
Oh, really?
That's your drawing.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
The window and door schedule was a nightmare or
drawing toilets.
Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
What do you mean draw?
Oh, just like bathroom.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, if it was like a multi-residential project,
you're and you're the bathroomperson, you're drawing all the
bathrooms.
That type of thing.
You get pigeonholes.
So yeah, you've got to becareful what you want to be good
at.
She's great at toilets.
Get out of the toilets.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
But yeah, I think another one for toilet girl.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, exactly.
What a title.
But that's your that's yournickname.
Speaker (30:44):
Hey, toilet girl.
unknown (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah.
But I think that was goodadvice that you got because
yeah, that was my experience.
You do get kitchen hold.
Speaker (30:54):
Yeah, you can't.
I haven't really thought thatmuch about it, but you're 100%
right.
I guess working in a smallerfirm, you definitely do more
roles because there's only somany of you.
So you have to kind of spreadyourself a bit more across
things, right?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Exactly.
And I think also, and I willsay, well, I was going to say, I
knew that I wanted to start myown practice eventually, but
really it was a little bit of uhencouragement from my parents,
let's call it.
Um, saying, you know, I thinkearly stages they were always
like, you're gonna have your ownpractice, you're gonna have
your own practice.
And I don't think I necessarilyhad the confidence within
(31:31):
myself to have chosen that pathfor myself, even though I'm very
glad that they encouraged me.
It's very nice.
Speaker (31:40):
Yeah.
Um what should they do?
Are they creative?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
No, not creatives.
Uh, I think my dad, well, mydad has definitely creative
sensibilities and um an amazingeye.
He's always collectedincredible furniture pieces and
lighting.
Um, and my mum, yeah, I supposeis creative in her own way in
terms of just engagement in theworld.
(32:05):
But um, yeah, that they bothhave very uh non-creative jobs.
So um yeah, my brother'sactually an illustrator as well.
So we don't really know howwe've got something there.
Yeah, yeah.
I think they they alwaysencouraged us to use our hands
and and our minds and ourimagination.
Um but yeah, I digress.
(32:28):
Circling back to the um yeah,so that they'd sort of
implanted, uh, incepted into myhead that um I would uh have my
own practice.
And so for me, logically, youknow, thinking about the end
goal and thinking about me beinga student, it was like, well,
if I'm gonna eventually start myown practice, then the best
thing I can do is work for asmall practice where I can learn
(32:50):
what that looks like asintimately as possible.
So I was the sole employee forI think probably like a year and
a half working for this guy.
And um, by the time I left,there were I think four staff
members.
Um, so yeah, it was reallydefinitely saw the the good, the
bad, the ugly.
Um yeah, it was it itdefinitely like recognizing that
(33:14):
it was going to be a difficultthing to do starting a small
business, but um yeah,definitely worth it as well.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It sounds like it gave you a bit of a idea of what
you were going to be signing upfor.
So that's that's really agreat, a great lesson.
And I bet you learned so muchin that time.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Oh, so much.
And I went in so chaotic anddisorganized as a person and
like such a mess.
No, it's a I shouldn't say sucha mess, but definitely like a
messy, disorganized person.
And um, and he was really,really um hard about having
(33:54):
everything organized, havingeverything in the correct
folders, um, you know, inAutoCAD, everything had to be
rounded up to the closest fiveor round rounded down, like
whole numbers and just perfect.
And wow, yeah, it was totallyagainst my character.
Um, but without all of thatlearning and that process, I
never would have been able tostart my own practice.
(34:16):
So yeah, just the tools andyeah, what I learned from that
were amazing.
And I think that probably onlycould have come from working um
so closely with the director whowas just instilling all of his
amazing practices.
Like I think if I had steppedinto even a practice of like six
(34:37):
people, say, um, and just beenleft to my own devices, I think,
you know, I probably would havehad like five desktop screens
worth of junk on my screen atall time.
And um, like what's wrong withthat?
Speaker (34:50):
I was gonna say, I wish I actually had that taught to
me that discipline.
I think I have it in theory,but in practice, not so much.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
You're good, Brie.
You're very organized.
I I'm good at the details.
Speaker (35:04):
Not for myself.
It's like more of a personaldisorganization.
Like my head is a million opentabs, and I I am I do I do seem
to be able to manage lots ofthings at the same time, but I
think I'm quite hard on myselfin terms of and I'm messy.
Um, but then I get to a pointwhere I cannot work anymore
(35:27):
until I clean it all up.
Like it's just like I'm a bitchaotic, and then I kind of
bring it all back in.
So I'm not sure.
You have just described me.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You've actually just describedme like perfectly, yeah.
Except, yeah, my folder systemsare great.
Speaker (35:42):
Yes, I do like a good system.
Lose stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, it's annoying when you lose stuff.
Um well, this director that youwere working with, did he come
from a large practice before?
Or did he just Yeah, he he hadworked for larger practice.
Um it sounds like something youlearn in a large practice, like
folder organization and drawingin AutoCAD like so precisely.
Like that's I mean, I'm I'mpretty good at that kind of
(36:07):
organization because that's whatI learned.
So, you know, if you're workingin a large practice and there's
a team of people, you can'tjust like store stuff on your
desktop.
So I'm kind of in the habit oflike having all my files quite
organized.
But um, you know, because it isjust me and my husband and you
know, occasionally we havecontractors, sometimes I get a
little relaxed.
unknown (36:28):
Yeah.
Speaker (36:30):
I think I get I think I get like that when I get um
like w when I'm on deadline,sometimes a lot of the the
organization goes out thewindow, and then I sort of have
to remember to come back and fixit all later because you know
when you're just like jumpingfrom one thing to the other all
the time.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Uh-huh.
Yeah, I definitely go throughthat.
And I'm trying to get better atbeing like, you know what, it
might seem really hard rightnow, but it's going to be more
annoying down the line.
So just get it done now.
Speaker (36:58):
I agree.
I agree.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
But yeah, I think you're right.
Like, yeah, learning those umlessons from larger practice and
then yeah, being able tointegrate them into a smaller
practice um application.
Because yeah, it there is thatformality of the structure um in
terms of yeah, the planning.
Yeah, the planning, the thestoring of information and files
(37:20):
and everything, um, which isyeah, I don't think that it it
is something like intuitive topeople.
No.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
So you worked for this architect for a while.
And what about next?
What was next after that?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
So I was with him for three and a half years.
Um, and I I actually don'tknow, like, yeah, do people sh
speak openly about the the namesof their former workplaces with
you guys?
Or yeah, if you have two.
I'll I'll give a shout out.
So so this was um Alex Lake oftheir four studio.
So they are an architecturepractice.
(37:57):
So I worked with Alex for threeand a half years, and then um,
yeah, also alongside his team.
And then following um the threeand a half years, I just
realized that, you know, theclock was ticking.
Uh, if I and you know, if I didwant to start my own practice,
I just recognized the importanceof getting experience elsewhere
as well.
Um so finished up at the end ofthe year with him, and then the
(38:21):
following year actually wasapplying for jobs around Jan
Feb, and it was just a reallyquiet time.
And um I I couldn't, I wasn'treally hearing back from
practices.
And then I had my firstfreelance project kind of fall
in my lap from a friend who wasan architect um who couldn't
(38:42):
take it on any longer.
Uh, but then as soon as I sortof started those conversations
with this particular client,then I got a call from one of my
like top practices that I'd toppreferences of um practices
that I'd applied for, uh, whichwas if architecture with Eva
Foskia.
So I ended up working for thenext two and a half years, sort
(39:04):
of part-time, alternatinganywhere from between one day to
five days, depending on um whatI was working on as like a
freelancer, and then also kindof what they needed in the
office.
So that was amazing to be ableto do that and kind of like
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And um, you know, removed thelike terror of uh just diving
(39:27):
into something just full-time.
Um, and she was just such anamazing support.
And um, it was actually superinteresting because, well, I
think A, working for a female umbrought, yeah, just like a
whole new world uh and just howa female architect approaches
space, even though I'm sure youknow Eva's way is just unique to
(39:49):
her as well.
But she interestingly had alsoum completed a psychology
undergraduate before she startedarchitecture.
So I think I learned a lot fromher about um, yeah, how to
approach spatial planning from areally different way.
And yeah, I remember just very,very early on um being in a
(40:10):
meeting in a workshop with herwhere we were looking at a floor
plan for some clients' umsketch design.
And and she was like, okay, soimagining that we're walking in
here and you're coming throughthese doors and you've got you
know light coming in from overhere.
And I was like, oh my gosh,I've never like even imagined
myself like stepping into theplan before.
(40:31):
So that was really, reallycool.
Um, and yeah, I learned so muchfrom her as a mentor, and and
she was so encouraging of mestarting my own practice
eventually too.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
That's nice.
It must have been hard for herto let you go, though.
Like sometimes it's like, Iwant you to start your own
practice, but yeah, can you justgive me five more years?
Five more years.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Well, uh, I mean, for better or for worse, it was
actually a pretty easytransition.
I I say easy transition forher, but um, I do know that she
was like, yeah, deeply upset inbreaking the news to me.
But um, I actually was maderedundant uh in COVID because
the first week that we had thestay-at-home order, the big
(41:15):
projects that I was working onat IF Architecture, um, all of
the funding got pulled.
So she called me up in themiddle of the day while I was
working on it.
Um, yeah, so upset.
I think she might have evenbeen in tears saying that she um
didn't have any more work forme.
And, you know, I was justreeling.
But um ultimately it was thebest possible thing that could
(41:37):
have happened.
And um, yeah, and and I'mactually still so friendly with
her, and we're having catch-updrinks next Friday.
So um, yeah, no, all it was itworked out very well.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Oh, it was emotions were running high though,
weren't they?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Like, yeah, it was pretty much globally, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, no one knew what to do or how to respond or
how long things were going to gofor.
So yeah, there were so manyunknowns.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And so since then, have youbeen working solely on your own
practice?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, yeah, which has been amazing.
Um, I will say I did have abrief stint doing some uh
interior stuff for a televisionshow, but that has to remain
confidential.
But that was that was aninteresting little segue.
Um, but yeah, besides that,have been so fortunate that uh
(42:29):
I've been able to just yeah,continue with my own work.
And it has been relatively, youknow, stable in terms of
projects coming in.
There definitely have beenlulls, particularly around like
the summer period and definitelyum yeah, moments where I have
been like, oh God, am I gonna beable to keep this going and
what am I gonna do?
(42:50):
And like, where do you like howdo you have jobs?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then you know, when you'rejust like in crisis mode and
then suddenly you get an emailor a phone call.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Put it out there in the universe, right?
As soon as you think, oh mygod, that job's gonna be
finished soon.
What are we gonna do afterthat?
And then you get an email or anInstagram or something.
Always away.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's just a whole coasterthough.
It's yeah, fully.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
It's like you're so in it, and then you're like, oh
yes, okay, we're getting to theend.
That's exciting.
And then it gets to a point,yeah, it close to the end, and
then you get into the panic oflike, oh, come on.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
All normal stuff, isn't it?
So tell me about the name ofyour studio, Studio Ami.
How did you how did you come upwith that?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Well, it's funny because even to this day, I'm
like, it's it's maybe a bit of astinker.
It was always meant to be a bitof a well, okay.
So for example, uh, or case inpoint, no one knows how to
pronounce it or how it's said.
I got a lot of people saying,um, oh Amy and calling me Amy or
AMI.
(43:57):
Oh, really?
Speaker (43:58):
But I think Lauren just knows because she's she speaks
a little bit of French, don'tyou, Lauren?
Speaker 2 (44:05):
No, not really.
Well, there you go.
Yeah.
So yeah, maybe some people canum yeah, work it out, although
it is very, very rare.
But ultimately, um, you know, Iwas trying to come up with a
business name and didn't want touse just my name.
And I, but also, yeah, wasinterested in maybe like plays
(44:28):
upon that.
So then I was thinking aboutjust various ways in which I
could use the let um the wordsin my name, you know, in in my
names as an acronym in some way.
Um, and yeah, Anouska MilsteinInteriors uh and reading that as
AMI and then thinking aboutclever.
(44:49):
I think I just immediately sawthe ties there between kind of
how I wanted to practice, whichfrom the very beginning I
imagined as a really likecollaborative process with
people.
And um, yeah, I think when youguys first reached out and we
had a brief chat, I mentioned toyou that I'd just seen, and I
(45:09):
should say that this wasn't um,you know, something that was uh
happening in the practices thatI was working for, but within
the industry, I was observingthat it was very commonplace
that projects would end.
And, you know, even if theclients were happy, there will
have there would have been likea lot of tension that would have
arisen on site.
And often there were kind offractured relationships.
(45:30):
And um, and yeah, even with theclients happy with the final
outcome, often they would belike a bit miffed and yeah,
there'd just be these like,yeah, something would have
happened that um, or the processmaybe just um had been one
where the clients just were leftfeeling not great, whether it
was with the builder or the thedesigner.
(45:51):
And I was just like, well, howdo I break that?
Yeah, how can I make it so thatit's fun and they feel really
connected and comfortable withme and kind of yeah, just like I
guess sort of I I guess Iwanted to word I'm looking for,
I guess just mess with like thehierarchies.
Um I think that yeah, likepeople come to you as a designer
(46:15):
because they they feel thatthey're lacking in in their
ability to do something withtheir homes or their businesses
or whatever.
And so I think they often cometo you kind of feeling a little
bit embarrassed almost.
Um, and I think that yeah, whenyou if you're able to be like,
you know, I'm not a threat hereand I'm not above you, like we
(46:39):
can just be working togetherhand in hand, and I can be the
this person who ultimately myrole is just to support you in
making the decisions that youwant to make and kind of reshape
um their perspective and uh ofthe dynamic, I guess.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
That's beautiful.
And I agree, like, you know,we've sort of talked about that
a little bit as well, in termsof when you're working in
residential interior design, youknow, you get quite, you know
your clients quite intimatelyand how they want to live their
lives.
So I heard actually it wasSimone Haig say the other day,
um, friant, friend client.
I was like, oh, that's cute.
(47:16):
Um, you know, I don't know.
I mean, I I do see some of myclients sometimes out on a
social level.
But I I when I started mybusiness, I was like, okay, I
have to be seen as like thisprofessional person.
And there's that that in theindustry, it's very much we need
to look like how how do how dowe want to be perceived?
And it's more like how do wewant to be perceived amongst our
(47:38):
peers rather than actuallyclients, which is really common.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
So true.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Where I was like, lately in thelast few years, I guess, I've
leaned into that being a morerelaxed relationship.
And it's I find it sointeresting because I get to
know my clients, and a lot ofthem, they're just from such
completely different worlds, aswe've sort of said before as
well.
And it's just fascinating.
And you know, some of them arejust I admire them so much in
(48:06):
what they do, like theseamazing, you know, women that
have these really stressfulcareers, and I'm just so
motivated to make their homelike this tranquil, peaceful,
restful, organized, practicalspace for them because they're
just they're just queens.
Like you're amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Totally.
I've had a few of those.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
They're cool.
So yeah, I think it's nice, youknow, studio ami and the the
French word for friend, it'skind of like subtle, but it's a
nice like little reference toyour whole approach.
And I think I read on yourwebsite, or where did I read
that you meet your clients likewith a hug?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
No, that was something that I just shared
with you guys.
Um yeah, you said yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's an interestingone.
And um, it was something thatso in in my first year of
working on my own, I'd sort ofI'd had it instilled in me from
um previous workplaces, youknow, I guess having this formal
level of formality and um sortof maintaining a a bit of a
(49:10):
physical boundary with clients.
But I and for me, like I I'vealways been a big hugger and uh
um been like quite familiar withpeople pretty quickly.
And what I was just finding wasI it just felt like when I was
saying hello and goodbye toclients, you know, even after
working with them for a year,there would just be this
(49:31):
perceivable for me, like thisthe space between us just felt
so big.
And so I felt like I, it wassomething that I was really
noticing and it felt that Iwasn't being authentic to who I
am.
And I was thinking, you know,as I was starting to build
confidence with my my practiceand my abilities, I wanted to
make who I was showing up.
(49:52):
The version of myself showingup as my work self to be more
aligned with just like megenerally, um, or me, you know,
at home or with my friends orwhatever, uh, obviously within
limits.
But I think there also for mecame this curiosity in um, and I
think it probably comes frompsychology and an understanding
of body language, just how do Ihow do I use these like subtle
(50:16):
tools to kind of disarm peopleand um and kind of like break
down barriers that might be inplace that might not be so
obvious?
Um, so you know, if someone ismaybe feeling a little bit
guarded or shy, the ability tobe able to say, you know, and
and I never do it when I firstmeet them, but once they're on
(50:36):
board, and usually when theycome in for the first
presentation, I'll greet themand be like, Can I give you a
hug?
And I've never been knockedback to this day, touch wood.
But you never know.
Like, I think you do need to berespectful of, you know, and
and that's why I do ask forconsent initially, because I
think that's important, andunderstanding that people, yeah,
again, as I've said, have theirdifferent stories and
(50:56):
backgrounds and limits.
But yeah, I think just thatbreaking that physical boundary
and having that like sense oftouch and like connection with
someone, I think goes so hand inhand with inviting someone into
your home or inviting someoneinto your personal space and
feeling comfortable with them.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
That's so touching.
Speaker (51:15):
That's amazing.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
That's lovely.
Um what do you do, Bri?
Are you a hugger?
Speaker (51:20):
Um, I think I read the person and decide.
I think it's great to ask, butsometimes you kind of know as
well, like that it's one ofthose moments.
So I don't know about when Iwhen I very first meet them.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think it's a case-by-casebasis, but I am a hugger in
general.
(51:41):
Like I'm definitely uh openinga friendly person.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah.
I mean, I can see that fully.
And it's interesting that yousay that, like, yeah, with your,
you know, you're reading them.
And, you know, I wouldencourage you to maybe challenge
that because my experience hasbeen that the clients who
initially come across as likequite reserved and maybe don't
feel like they're it seems likethey're not very confident in
(52:06):
expressing, I don't know,whether it's their emotions or
their thoughts or what or whathave you, or maybe come across
as quite shy.
I I almost always find thatlike once the hug has happened,
um, once we've like crossedthat, then suddenly you just
like really see that soften andlike that opening and um yeah,
that that sort of ease comingin.
Speaker (52:26):
It's a bit like what, yeah, it's fit like what you
said before, showing them thatyou're no threat.
Like there's it it it theboundaries aren't well, there's
boundaries, but you know, theycan be open and I guess a little
bit vulnerable with you, whichis kind of important if you're
gonna do your job, right?
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Yeah, yeah.
I think you're so right there.
Just this message that, youknow, like you're safe with me.
And I'm like, I'm actually likehere to hold you in this
process.
Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yeah, I love that.
That's so touching.
I'm not gonna start holdingtheir hands, but that's only
after maybe six months or so.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
I mean, like skip through the site joyfully
together.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Yeah, that would be nice.
But to be honest with you aswell, I think a lot of clients
look at interior design websitesor look at somebody's presence
on Instagram and they're scared.
They're scared to reach out,they're intimidated.
And I feel like that's reallyalmost a um, it's a real clash
to what we do because we'reliterally in their walking
(53:31):
robes, we're in their ensuites,they're we're in their very
private spaces.
They should feel reallydisarmed, as you say.
And also tell me what youthink, tell me the feedback.
Am I on the right track?
Sometimes clients if they feellike they can't speak to you
honestly.
And I don't know, I I want toknow, like, tell me, tell me a
thing.
Speaker (53:51):
You know, you'll get the sort of agreeable meeting,
and then you'll get the 24 hourslater.
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Oh my god, it's that's a classic.
Yeah.
Speaker (54:01):
Oh, actually, I've thought about it, and because I
don't think they've maybe gotthe confidence to say what they
want to say in in the meeting.
And maybe we're maybe sometimeswe're so confident about what
we're presenting.
And they I know I've definitelyhad gorgeous clients who've
gone, I just didn't really wantto offend you.
Like your house.
Speaker 3 (54:21):
I know, I know.
Speaker (54:22):
I don't have to live there.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
If only we hugged them at the first meeting.
Oh, that's so sweet.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Oh, yeah.
I want to give you a hug now.
Soon, soon, yeah.
The shame about a podcastenvironment, I guess.
Um but yeah, I think you're soyeah, I think what like to to
what you just described, Brie,like I think for for me to be
able to give them this sense ofsecurity and and feel as
(54:51):
comfortable as they can do toexpress their their um yeah,
their true feelings, even justunderstanding that when we can
when we sit with things overtime that opinions can change.
But yeah, like in meetings, Isay to my clients at the
beginning, if you see somethingthat you just instantly feel
that you love or hate, I wouldlove to know.
Otherwise, feel comfortable tojust sit with this and I'll send
(55:14):
it to you and you can let meknow in your own time.
And also just letting them knowthat, yeah, there's there's no
such thing as a dumb question.
You know, I think so oftenthey're like, oh, but yeah, I
think for me it's like, well, ifyou if my clients feel
comfortable to ask the reasoningbehind certain decisions in the
design, then it gives me theopportunity to sort of paint the
(55:38):
the backstory and the approachof why I think it's the right
choice for them.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
And I think it's a really good idea to guide
clients as to how to givefeedback, you know, as to what
you're saying.
And I've said that to clientstoo.
Like if if you don't likesomething, if you like
something, feel free to say onthe spot.
But if you need a minute tomake up your mind, let's catch
up in another week or so.
Because you can't just say atthe end, so did you like it?
Like it's too open-ended.
(56:04):
Yeah, you need to guide them.
And we get frustrated when wedon't get the right feedback
that we want, but we haven'tasked them to give it to us.
Speaker (56:13):
So sorry, Brie.
So true.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Yeah.
And that and that is actuallysomething that I try to do,
yeah, and have tried toimplement more and more is
using, and and and I have umstaff now, which is amazing.
Using my staff members andmyself in meetings to really
observe our clients and theirbody language and their maybe
like silent reactions to things.
(56:38):
And then we and any sort oflittle comments or reactions
that come up, um, we will alwayssend through our presentations
alongside anything that wediscussed, and then, you know,
and and kind of like gentlyquestion or query, you know, say
we sense that maybe there wassome apprehension or a bit of
hesitation when we showed this.
(57:00):
And I think that that just likeopens up for them this sort of
comfortable environment for themto express it.
And look, sometimes it's amisread, but yeah, I also have
to be like, sometimes I'd, youknow, I'm not gonna get it right
every time as well.
But um trying to yeah, tryingto give them that um that
openness or that's yeah, thatcomfortability to express that.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
I think it shows you care as well.
Speaker 2 (57:23):
Yeah, that's it's part of the trust thing as well.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Yeah, yeah, come back to the trust thing.
So before we wrap up, tell us abit, yeah, about you mentioned
you've got a team.
So who have you got in yourteam?
Speaker 2 (57:35):
Uh so the team has fluctuated a little bit this
year.
I did have uh uh one greatgirl, Elle Ross, working for me
for four and a half years, whichwas a very long stint.
And she wrapped up, oh, whenwould it have been?
I think uh May, maybe May orJune.
Uh I had a girl join me full asa full-timer called Mari Paul,
(57:59):
and she's um yeah, a brilliantdesigner, uh, actually living
here from France.
And she was running her ownpractice over there, which yeah,
she's out with her partner on apartner visa.
So very sadly, know that uhit's not going to be a very long
or super long engagement, butshe's amazing.
Cool.
Um, and then I have a studenttwo days a week.
(58:20):
Oh, actually, now as of thisweek, three days a week.
Oh, wow, that's cool.
Yeah, I mean, it's definitelyhaving staff is really, really
hard because supporting, youknow, being the person
responsible for someone'slivelihood means that you're
you're constantly having to makedecisions for the business with
that filter.
But it's also so rewarding.
(58:41):
Yeah, like being able to, youknow, have conversations with
someone.
And and yeah, I mean, havingthe support, even from being in
a meeting with clients and beinglike, what do you think they
actually thought about that?
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Yeah, just to bounce ideas with someone.
Cause yeah, what did what wasyour read?
Did they like it or do youthink they didn't like it?
You know, it's somebody elsethat was there.
Yeah, that would be so nice.
So good, Anouska.
Thank you so much for such agreat chat.
I just found that just reallymuch fun.
Speaker (59:11):
I feel like I've learned a bit.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
I know.
And vice versa.
It was so great to um, yeah,dive deep into those topics and
yeah, think about them um morecomprehensively and yeah, get
your ideas on things too.
Speaker 1 (59:24):
Oh, well, I think you know, the clients must be just
so thrilled to work with you,they must have the best time.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
I hope so.
That's the yeah, that's theintent.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
Yeah.
Thanks, Anouska.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
We've got the utmost respectfor the Wurundjeri people of the
Kulin Nation.
They're the OG custodians ofthis unceded land and its
waters, where we set up shop,create, and call home and come
to you from this podcast today.
A big shout out to all of theamazing elders who have walked
(59:58):
before us, those listening.
Leading the way in the present,and the emerging leaders who
will carry the torch into thefuture.
We're just lucky to be on thisjourney together.
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