August 5, 2024 • 39 mins
Katarina is a visual artist, writer, illustrator, and researcher, having published her first book, Drawn Together – Maintaining Connections and Navigating Life’s Challenges with Art, in 2013. Her ongoing project, a graphic novel titled Salt Green Death, explores a true family saga based in Vancouver, BC, stemming from her volunteer work on the Babes in the Woods Cold Case Task Force.
She has worked in various environments, including custody centers, community programs, care facilities, and educational institutions. Her artwork is featured in private collections across North America and Europe, and her interactive art events and street art encourage public participation in the creative process.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This is Design Voices with Daniel Trainer. We're going to hear from industry professionals and leaders in the field of design.
(00:09):
Today we're joined by Katarina Thorsen. I go by Kat in my work mode and I'm an artist, writer, researcher and creative engagement facilitator.
We're very grateful to have you here with us. And I guess to start, could you tell us a little bit about your journey into the world of design and what initially drew you into this field?
(00:32):
I definitely have a genetic lineage within the arts. My father was actually a designer engineer, so I was raised around that. He was a cartoonist as well.
And then we have family members in Norway, my heritage there, who were artists. So it was part of my genetic thing. And certainly for me, creativity and expression has been part of my personal journey through anxiety as a kid and all this stuff.
(01:00):
I got my bachelor's in cellular biology. And then also that final year I was taking medical genetics as a course and it was fascinating. But what was fantastic was that our prof, she was hands on.
It was a smaller class, but as she taught, she doodled on the board. She didn't write the inf- she doodled it. We had to mind map our learning. We had to like do a genetic map, map out the genome of a fruit fly, but it was visual.
(01:38):
And then all of a sudden I was doing like visual interaction with my learning and doing really well in that class. And so it opened me up actually to how design and creativity and hands on work can help you connect with a deeper learning.
And then I got really interested in the mental health field and psychiatry and all that stuff. And as well as criminology. And so I ended up going into a way to explore all that altogether was by going into restorative justice and working with young people within
(02:14):
custody centers, doing creative arts within alternative schools. So that was how all of a sudden everything was starting to merge. It was a way to engage people creatively through interacting with arts, but also going deeper into the learning, but also deeper into connecting with extremely vulnerable populations. And then that led me to intersections media and working with my brother in terms of working with young people.
(02:39):
Looking at design philosophy and the process around it. How would you describe your design philosophy? What core principles guide your work?
In my role at intersections as program coordinator, it is about organizing data as well. Like, yes, I'm working with young people. Yes, I'm bringing them in, but it's data organization. So that for me, I have to make it visual. So when I mind map out the day and all these things, but my core design philosophy in my art life is really staying connected with creative process, not staying
(03:18):
attached to the outcome. So if you plan something, because I've seen this sort of folks have this idea that they want to create a film. They want to write that novel. They want to be that visual artist, and then they're not doing it. And it's because they think that you have to have everything set up and correct to get to that place. So I have friends who have spent now 25 years designing their art studios, and they haven't painted in a while.
(03:47):
And they haven't painted a thing as opposed to being continuously in creative process. So my design philosophy is continuously stay in process, but that doesn't mean that you're actually creating the thing that particular project.
It's about embracing when you watch movies, how is that feeding you when you're reading a book, how is that feeding you stay attached to a journal doodle all the time. I'm also very, I'm not anti digital, because, you know, I do that, but I'm not the digital person. So all my work is actually hand done. So my graphic novel is hand drawn my, my mind maps are hand done.
(04:27):
There's a lot of apps online that you can do a lot of people running Why am I not using my iPad and doing all those incredible things on putting out graphic novels on iPads or doing mind mapping on on these apps, they have no connection.
So for me my creative philosophy has to be actual physical touch and getting my hands dirty. And so that's really it but creative process is what it's about.
(04:53):
Can you walk us through what typical design process is for you from concept to final execution. Yes, so mind mapping is the core of my being, and I use it even in people use because I do work with a lot of vulnerable young people.
So you have a crisis, you bring out the paper and pen, and you listen and you draw it out as they're working. But as it so say that I'm given a project, I could be given for example I do a lot of work with schools, not with the students but with the teachers so within
(05:28):
the school for example who are working on the big project for the year 2024 to 2025 for example would be there looking at revisioning and making a new mission statement for their school.
It's a huge ask. So I pull out my paper and pen for myself and bizarrely my mind maps now become wall size. It's just more and more, but I simply vomit out for lack of a better word, the initial thing so I put the core thing in the middle.
(05:59):
I have all these ideas and then I look at it, type it all out, refine refine. That's actually also how I work with the teachers so when they. So I'll come into a room of 70 teachers who know don't want to be there because they're, it's professional
development they and they're not excited they want to be home.
So you draw first, so you always interact with the philosophy that you're trying to get at the project you're trying to get at by, by getting your hands dirty. And then they have to mind map and dialogue.
(06:32):
That's what I'm thinking about. And then I will then type out all that and refine it see the main points, and that works with screenwriting. It works with designing a project it works with planning your day, but it really is about allowing every thought to come out initially
and not worried if it has something to do with it.
And see the main points and refine. It's a great way to build character and situations as well all those things so it relates to everything. What would you say the framework for approaching a new design brief looks like.
(07:05):
How do you interpret and then translate them into creative concepts. So for a good example is the mission and vision statements for the school could be a good kind of project to look at.
And so for them that means new PDFs new website design a new logo all those things that kind of feel for me, who works very messily. How does that work for me, but what it is I take come in and get refine what the outcome is so then I'll actually use.
(07:40):
I do use the cloud generators from, you know, all translate the mind map into a document. And then I'll look physically but also put it through the app to see what are the main points that are coming out what are people saying, refining what I see are the
main points are really, but also using every chop that I've ever learned through all the years of working with various populations on how to read a room, how to see where people are nodding, how to read what somebody wrote on a piece of paper because I keep everything
(08:11):
that people write, and they might have written a tiny little thing but you see that they didn't dare to say it, and it could be the thing. So having typed everything out first and then finding the main points can really help.
And then I start to see maybe their core values come out and how do we make those core values become a mission statement. But then, what are the, what is the landscape around the place that you're at with the people that you're working with so say that you're
(08:41):
working with an organization or a corporation, where are they sitting in space, indigenizing the approach so that they understand what underneath the building under who brought came into that building what was there before and knowing the roots underneath.
So that it's just a way to be in place and understand how does that place feed our outcome. And then what are the visuals that come up so then allowing people to really feedback it becomes a very interactive approach, because I have seen other people come in
(09:12):
and work with, this is how I work. This is how the outcome is, I will deliver these logos and these big art pieces, but they're mine, but for me it's a constant interaction to a point where you you know you can then go okay well now this is actually my art piece
and let you really interact so that people agree on the content. And then it's up to the designer the artist to kind of take their artistic ability and transform it, but people feel heard, right, they, you know, oh, we wanted a woodpecker and an eagle and this guy on
(09:48):
there that works it because that is really about blah blah but it's to me. It really has become the restorative practices are coming into that work because people want to be heard. And so that comes into the design concept for sure as the so that people are attached to it
in a deeper way. Who or what are your main influences when it comes to design, is there anything in particular that you relate to when you're going through that process.
(10:16):
I have lots of influences. I am a Learn-a-holic in terms of, you know, literature, artists, music, dance, scientists. However, the core person that changed my life was Linda Berry, and Linda Berry is a renowned comic artist so she started, she was had a syndicated comic which is kind of a dreamy thing to think about.
(10:45):
Back in like the late 70s early 80s, called Ernie Pook's and then Marley's World and they were really ahead of their time because they were about puberty and growing up and family issues in this comedic way but it was syndicated in local papers.
She went to the Portland School of Art with Matt Groening who created The Simpsons. So they certainly come from that place where they're taking personal stuff and bringing it in. And then she now is the guru of engaging people in design.
(11:22):
And so she works out of the University of Wisconsin, and however she's global, her art transformed from comics. They're all very, they're very raw, they're very handwritten, drawn into this, her book. She actually became an artist in residence at Capilano University in BC, which is incredible.
(11:47):
So she will collage together she'll use art she'll do all sorts of things that make books about exploration. What is writing? What is drawing? She feels drawing and writing are the same, because it's like you're making marks on paper or whatever.
But she feels that it's a biological process. And then she has demystified the approach to it, to drawing that it's not for visual artists only, or musicians only. Art is for everyone to engage in deeper output.
(12:21):
And so her courses are really popular, and very hard to get into. And, but other, it's all faculties are taking it so it's not about the it's the visual artists kids that are in there, there can be.
But there is within medicine there's all sorts of things and so people are doing their thesis as a comic book, all those kinds of things so she is a huge influence.
(12:45):
And it's all about humor and I use some of her exercises engaging people. So if people I work with are designing something, if they're working on a film or something or they're working on their animation.
I will engage them first with his very rudimentary funny kind of drawing styles and things to get just to loosen it up.
(13:06):
And she is the big one, and, and she won like the MacArthur genius award and all these things, because of her ability to engage people deeper and help them demystify their approach to their work.
And certainly now a big influence on me is using is, or I guess maybe I'm kind of influencing to is you within healthcare is using visual narrative in order to create deeper engagement within the reports that are coming out within sessions
(13:41):
and stuff so the it's kind of moving away from the very fancy boring PowerPoints, you know, and certainly there's a group that I work with at SFU Simon Fraser University, who are really looked at I helped illustrate one of their books is really looking at how to engage
(14:02):
students in a deeper way because they noticed that students were coming in to the design courses and leaning back, closing their eyes and waiting for the PowerPoint.
And in a course that is all about, you know, interacting with humanity kind of thing and output. So they started using the doodling approach and things like that and so that's what we're really exploring is how to teach professors to doodle while they teach, but with their
(14:30):
hand, not, you know, with any technology yes technology can be all this stuff but and and then so people need to interact, and then some of the homework is actually handed in on paper.
Now, moving into visual media and visual communication. We all know visual media plays a real crucial role in brand identity and viewer engagement. So, how do you approach the creation of visual media to ensure that they're both memorable, but also effective.
(15:01):
Certainly my personal work is moving into full time art now, which is really exciting as I move away from facilitation within youth programming into because I have you know I'm working on graphic novels I have one that I'm completing now but also I have four lined up after this which is really exciting that all have taken everything that I've learned
(15:26):
of my life. However, I'm becoming unique in the graphic novel world, ironically, is that everything I do is hand drawn, and I'm not finessing it so I'm scanning the original drawing but there is.
So my approach, I want to see the dirt, I want to see the fingerprints, I want to see the rawness of the process. And that has actually made me unique and which is ironic because the more we design like everyone else the less people are engaging with it.
(15:59):
What is unique about your approach but do you love to so certainly, you know, there is even the approach with the using AI, you can be really creative using that stuff. Right and not don't let it hold you back and and use all the new technology it's really wonderful
watching my niece and nephew like 10 and now 13 almost just so naturally interact with the digital world. And I'm not like I wish I could do that I'm more like, I'm going to do what I love to do and then all of a sudden that's become unique and so I actually saw at
(16:37):
Vancouver Comic Arts Festival this year, which is a massive conference kind of festival about comic arts, that there was a massive push for zines hand photocopied, meaning so little comics that you do yourself.
$5 each, but you actually physically drew them photocopy them with the sound of a photocopier and then hand stapled them. And so there's this push for hands on stuff again. And, and, and also about limited edition things and so, you know, I made a broad sheet prologue for my graphic novel, meaning a newspaper,
(17:18):
because the graphic novel originated from a news article, but the fact that people are interacting with my work and literally getting ink on their hands is really interesting. Right. So yeah, I'm for me it's just about being very authentic to your own desire and vision and yeah, getting your hands dirty as I always say.
What's the most significant changes? There may even be just one major change, but things that you've seen in the field of visual media design over the past few years. What I love seeing is independent content creators that the YouTubers that are sharing what they love to do and not waiting, just doing it so you can look back at their old YouTube's and they can be clumsy,
(18:06):
but they're just as engaging as the fancy ones now that they've learned some editing and stuff like this. What I'm really seeing within the fields I care about within mental health within patient centered care is patient centered care.
So the healthcare industry is now changing to engaging patients within their visual narratives. And so the reports are now no longer about data as much as so you know people interacting with the healthcare industry being a doctor, a nurse provider, patient can be really overwhelming
(18:45):
and cold. And now they're looking at individual narratives from the doctors from the nurses from the patients and creating more an interactive thing either online as a book within graphic medicine.
I love the fact that UBC has crest BD which is their bipolar disorder studies, and they do YouTube things they put out newspaper so I see this design of more people not holding back, but putting it out there right away.
(19:18):
Because people are wanting stuff and then allowing it to be as messy as it needs to be and then you can develop from there. But I think it is about the individual has the right now to create.
I, you know, it's, it's very old school now to me to get a approach to buy a producer who asks, Can we, you know, can we negotiate with you regarding putting your story as a Netflix series for example.
(19:48):
And I say no, because one, I don't want to be, but also, it's because I, that is not about me. That is about them wanting content, and then their CEO to get $33 million. It is not, and I might be offered $2,500 for them to hold it for 10 years.
So there is I love the fact that this content independent content creation has actually empowered people to say no to those kind of things, and to create. Now I guess we get to the exciting topic of the role of technology.
(20:21):
How have you seen the advent of digital technology and you know all these new media platforms. Have you seen them influence your design work, particularly in the realm of visual media.
Yes, it's really exciting you know as I've gone on and on about in terms of my hand drawing but how do you then you can't like photocopy an 18 by 24 page thing and it's not good, you can't necessarily photograph a drawing all those things so um, what happens with for my personal
(20:51):
work. I will do things like work, I will have a website that I dumped my creative process into some of it is private because it's going to be the book, but some of it is just me sharing creative process so there's my interaction with online.
It's not big anymore on Instagram and all that stuff it used to be really fun when it back in the day in the olden days when people were sharing creative process. It's a very different animal now but so I no longer really interact that way but I find having
(21:25):
a voice is really good. I have lots of people in my roster who do a different thing so that somebody might make a sound bath that reflects my book, so that someone who cannot, who may be blind, can interact with the sound.
So those kind of things looking at, you know, how do we make it inclusive and unique ways for people who are coming in and interacting with your work. And then in terms of bringing my personal stuff into a book form.
(21:57):
I would invest in a really high end scanner, but then can transform that into digital ready medium for the publisher who then does the rest in terms of getting it all printed. So, but I also always need to put, I will always take a photo of my finished
page and put it up through the computer, and not to change it, but to see it. I need that that distance that's why I also loved when I did Instagram in the back, I could see it. I can see not the way people were interacting with it, I could distance
(22:30):
myself from it and see actually doesn't work or that really works and I'm coming into it. But then a big part of that to the way you interact with your art and the way they put it out is to turn off, not turn off that's the wrong word is to dance with the
inner critic, and not think about what do people want to see, but what is it that makes me unique. And so really, that's what's good about practicing putting it online in that sense and, you know, and seeing what is it that makes this excellent from my perspective.
(23:03):
Right and not comparing yourself to others who have already put out this stuff. But for me, yes, it's very important for me to have that distance by putting it online. I don't do, you know, and I have to do PowerPoints and all that stuff but I find that, you know, putting a sound
bath, putting music to really helps to for people to interact with it in a really unique way. What are your thoughts on the use of emerging technologies, you know, we've got AI, we've got augmented reality. How do you see those in design? Do you see them as tools that enhance
(23:38):
creativity, or as a potential challenge? I'm always a fan of anything new is exciting. I recall being in a music store and buying my first cassette, and the frenzy in the media about the problems with cassettes, and it's going to ruin the music industry. And then that same thing came out with music videos.
(24:03):
This is going to change. Oh my gosh, there's not going to be any more concerts or everybody now has to be a filmmaker all those things, whereas like embrace the challenge. And I sense, because as we're seeing like AI can be really exciting. I mean, you get some really great ideas from it, but also can be look really amazing.
It could also be terrible like just crappy. It can be as with anything that humans get their hands on they can really mess it up. They can use it for evil, they can use it for good all those things, but it can be its own art tool.
(24:39):
You know there have been some exciting digital only exhibitions that I've gone to which is really exciting because that was a hard thing for galleries to embrace like, and so there will be really interesting art installments, films made with AI.
At the same time humans will always create and rise the occasion and be hungry so you know a lot of bands use cassettes now they put out their music on cassettes on LPs.
(25:06):
And they, you know, people are recording with a crappy recorder.
People are hungry for Oh, I have my iPhone four and I filmed it and it looks amazing because he is so you become hungry for the old stuff. I think people love to complain and get all worried and everything like that and, but I think the more we rise the occasion the less
(25:29):
power it has. And, and it's always been the same right ever since even the, you know, when the book, the printing press came out there was uproar. And so I think AI can be really incredible and I think it could save a lot of time.
Because there can be people who want a particular monster looking thing and then the artist will create it. And they're like, I don't like it and then you got to go back and oh gosh and I personally don't really like illustrating for people it's really hard because they have
(26:02):
their own vision. Let them create the vision.
How do you stay updated with all of this because there's a lot that's happening with latest technology and all the advancements, how do you integrate them into your work.
I think it is because now I you know, because I am a program director of a digital media program I have to kind of stay updated. However, my role is more with the youth themselves, right and then also when I teach my part which is drawing and storyboarding
(26:31):
and it's actually hands on drawing people are literally using paper and pen. So I stay updated, because of the people I work with like my brother for example so he's the one that is showing the latest rope, the young people in my life.
You know my children.
And all of this is happening out in the world. That's how I stay updated but I'm very, I love media and I love, you know, ingesting things so that's kind of how I see it. I'm not very good with buying the latest tool and reading the manual, my brother when he was younger
(27:05):
and still does will read the actual manual, which is incredible for me it's like, ah, I'm going to just as so my brother was showing style sheets on Word, which is a very handy tool to know.
And he said like does anybody here use a spacebar to indent and I was like oh god, because there was no desire to fit I was just like this is the tool I have. This is how I do it. And so I'm not really good. However, I'm constantly creating.
(27:35):
I'm constantly getting up to date so now when I'm doing when I have a problem or a page that doesn't work. I'll use the tools that I've done like all I never stopped creating it's probably annoying to people.
So I can't really watch a movie without embroidering or having a paintbrush in my hand and fiddling around. And so all of a sudden all that feeds into so as young people are fiddling around and doing stuff on tick tock and stuff they're ingesting a lot of new stuff,
(28:04):
and they're constantly up on it constantly. And there was a young person I worked with who is extremely vulnerable.
She still is as an adult, but she came into the program.
Just, you know, I had known her before and pulled her in and she said, you know, I've never done anything with my life like I only watch anime, and I only do this, and she was really up on everything about anime.
(28:33):
And she lent itself to the way that she edited the way that she did her cartoons and I said, Oh, everything that you've been doing is research, right, every all that time that you spent on is never wasted if that's what you love to watch and do that is part of the
art, right. So, and then staying on top of it. So but certainly I think for me personally the digital part is, is what I have. Although you know I had to get really high up on the this new scanning stuff for the stuff.
(29:05):
So that's really exciting to know how do you translate something from the analog to digital so I better stay up on that.
When it comes to creative challenges and aspirations. What would you say some of the biggest challenges have been for you that maybe you've encountered with the industry, and how did you navigate through them.
Certainly, if you're looking at within the digital media industry with filmmakers with animators with all these things is a lack of funding, and the creatives should ideally be allowed to create because you want you need to continuously explore, and that
(29:44):
does take time.
It always comes down to funding even with films even with, you know, books, anything like that it's all about the funding model. And I think overcoming the challenge is just to stay in that creative process and never see that your bread and butter work is negative.
(30:05):
And I know you may not be a filmmaker right now and you are waiting tables or whatever. Totally cool, because, you know, it's, you can be just thinking about it your whole life, and never putting anything out but that's your own personal little journey.
And it doesn't necessarily have to go to the millions to be amazing right so.
(30:27):
So funding comes down to the big issue, and people can feel really defeated, looking into the future, all the way ahead. What are some of the goals and projects that you aspire to achieve or work on in the next few years, my goal is that you know I have worked with
thousands of youth in various ways, so delivering. Call it I call it creative engagement, I'm not an arts board certified art therapists, but I do therapeutic art approaches so those have been really great but I have learned from all the use that I've worked with.
(31:02):
I've taken a lot in from that and it then translates into my work, my work is very human based, very looking at psych the psychology of humanity. And so my personal goal is to move away from having to do that kind of bread and butter work, even though it's been really
(31:23):
rewarding but I am getting older, and going now into my the last hopefully third of my life into really focusing on these projects that I have been really wanting to do.
When we talk universal themes and design, what would be your opinion that something that unites designers across different cultures and disciplines in the universal quest to create something simple, functional, and beautiful.
(31:50):
That's a fascinating thing and I think the universal overarching theme within design and how to engage people is the storytelling aspect.
But a story could be just a dot that you know it's really interesting to see how do you minimize something and so I think the universality is how are you, how is the person engaging with it, are they engaging with it physically, visually,
(32:19):
you know sound, whatever it is, are they coming into a space and feeling it, all those things but the you to me it's about who you're designing it for.
You're designing it for someone, if you're only designing for yourself, whatever, but if you're hired to do something.
Yes, you may think about who are coming into that space, who are interacting with your final thing and then what is the quickest way they can get the message. And so that really does come down to that process of trying everything initially and refining and refining
(32:55):
and refining that's why it really within creative writing for example, you know you can take 10 pages and refine it down to a sentence.
Where you go, oh my gosh, to me the universal aspect is one, stay in creative process so that you can try it all.
And then let go of some things you don't have to show it all, but it's still under there. There's a fantastic quote that I came across but I don't know if you know who Hillary Mantel is she wrote Wolf Hall and she was, she just died recently last year, but she is
(33:31):
extraordinary brilliant British writer like one of my favorite authors, and she wrote the whole series on Henry VIII and it's spectacular.
But she, everything was a fictionalized approach to these stories and very personal stories as well. But she researched heavily very similar to the way I approach I just ingest and I think that is what you do as a designer to just ingest.
(33:59):
And then what comes out doesn't have to have it all I think some people make it wrong by putting too much in, and then letting go but you know the detail that's under there so that one little thought you know how it got there right and that's the thing but I think to not needing to show
everybody everything, although it's sometimes you know too much can be really cool thing too it depends on the thing but yeah it's about refining and but knowing who your audience is.
(34:30):
And because not everybody needs to understand it, but the people and so I've done some interactive art. I've done some work with public art people and it's really interesting to see how they have to.
How they're approached to it and getting the funding to do so they actually have to design the whole thing, initially and see if it works, but then these particular as I worked with one in particular, he will submit the design.
(35:03):
So it could be for example the entrance to a new hospital. And it could have all these incredible ways that people are kind of interacting with this lobby as they come in and making it an interesting space to be in.
So it's not about paintings on the wall it's about like where things hanging how simple. Why are people looking at power the interacting, but he will design that propose it get the funding for it but then he has brought me on to do the creative engagement with
(35:34):
the people who are going to walk into the space, which I really like so that that changes his ideas a little bit because then they're kind of going, you can he he can see where it's like, they're not really, and they're also getting their voice in there
and so he always make sure that the finished product has a process. After the funding it's in place. Now we know design plays a major role in shaping our everyday lives but what role do you believe it does in shaping our everyday lives and society at large.
(36:06):
Yeah, it's really interesting how, like living in Vancouver for example you see a very mishmash of things it doesn't always kind of look pretty. You know there used to be a prettier skyline.
It's an interesting way I can see the changes. I think there, I would ideally love design to start embracing the old with the new.
(36:30):
I think there are some things that I like the ones where they actually. There's some really beautiful apartment buildings I live in the West End by Stanley Park but there's some really beautiful apartment millings that have retained the exterior of the historical building
and then built around it so there's this acknowledgement of the past.
(36:51):
And then there's also, what are our roles as settlers, making.
And in terms of the first peoples and their design aspect and having acknowledging that, you know, supporting that hands off from that all those various things.
(37:15):
You know, let's save some things as well. Some of those old buildings and all that stuff but how does it, you know, to me the overall design has to be smooth and interactive and fun visually you know you can be on a bus and get really attracted to that
poster up there. And then sometimes you don't even see it. What is it that made you stop and really see it I like accidental collisions when they design things where people have to kind of interact unexpectedly with something.
(37:50):
I'm a big fan personally and it sounds bad is of graffiti, street art and graffiti. And I, you know, obviously, don't tag businesses, I, and people's homes I freaking hate that kind of thing.
I love, you know, you go on a train and you see that stuff, even on the train. I mean it's just this, this sort of an art and I like anarchy in art and design, and less asking for permission.
(38:22):
You know, you can use the money and just do it kind of thing. Yeah, so but I think in terms of overall when you look at a city, what is it that's working what's not working and sometimes really new things interact well there's a new building by the churches on
the right and Nelson. So, a church actually sold their land to to help fund the church, the church is still beautiful it's been renovated, but this building it just doesn't feel right beside it.
(38:54):
The other church across the street has a building also that feels much righter with that it's really interesting and looking at what are designed why are certain coffee shops really fun to be in, and why do some not work like the it's really fascinating
and obviously it's not general has to be very independent but yeah.
That's almost a wrap. We're just at the end again thank you so much for taking this interview. If you could give one piece of advice to aspiring designers, what would it be, stay in creative mode doesn't have to be the end result.
(39:29):
Yeah, keep your creative expression going.
This is Design Voices with Daniel Trainer. We're going to hear from industry professionals and leaders in the field of design.
(00:09):
Today we're joined by Katarina Thorsen. I go by Kat in my work mode and I'm an artist, writer, researcher and creative engagement facilitator.
We're very grateful to have you here with us. And I guess to start, could you tell us a little bit about your journey into the world of design and what initially drew you into this field?
(00:32):
I definitely have a genetic lineage within the arts. My father was actually a designer engineer, so I was raised around that. He was a cartoonist as well.
And then we have family members in Norway, my heritage there, who were artists. So it was part of my genetic thing. And certainly for me, creativity and expression has been part of my personal journey through anxiety as a kid and all this stuff.
(01:00):
I got my bachelor's in cellular biology. And then also that final year I was taking medical genetics as a course and it was fascinating. But what was fantastic was that our prof, she was hands on.
It was a smaller class, but as she taught, she doodled on the board. She didn't write the inf- she doodled it. We had to mind map our learning. We had to like do a genetic map, map out the genome of a fruit fly, but it was visual.
(01:38):
And then all of a sudden I was doing like visual interaction with my learning and doing really well in that class. And so it opened me up actually to how design and creativity and hands on work can help you connect with a deeper learning.
And then I got really interested in the mental health field and psychiatry and all that stuff. And as well as criminology. And so I ended up going into a way to explore all that altogether was by going into restorative justice and working with young people within
(02:14):
custody centers, doing creative arts within alternative schools. So that was how all of a sudden everything was starting to merge. It was a way to engage people creatively through interacting with arts, but also going deeper into the learning, but also deeper into connecting with extremely vulnerable populations. And then that led me to intersections media and working with my brother in terms of working with young people.
(02:39):
Looking at design philosophy and the process around it. How would you describe your design philosophy? What core principles guide your work?
In my role at intersections as program coordinator, it is about organizing data as well. Like, yes, I'm working with young people. Yes, I'm bringing them in, but it's data organization. So that for me, I have to make it visual. So when I mind map out the day and all these things, but my core design philosophy in my art life is really staying connected with creative process, not staying
(03:18):
attached to the outcome. So if you plan something, because I've seen this sort of folks have this idea that they want to create a film. They want to write that novel. They want to be that visual artist, and then they're not doing it. And it's because they think that you have to have everything set up and correct to get to that place. So I have friends who have spent now 25 years designing their art studios, and they haven't painted in a while.
(03:47):
And they haven't painted a thing as opposed to being continuously in creative process. So my design philosophy is continuously stay in process, but that doesn't mean that you're actually creating the thing that particular project.
It's about embracing when you watch movies, how is that feeding you when you're reading a book, how is that feeding you stay attached to a journal doodle all the time. I'm also very, I'm not anti digital, because, you know, I do that, but I'm not the digital person. So all my work is actually hand done. So my graphic novel is hand drawn my, my mind maps are hand done.
(04:27):
There's a lot of apps online that you can do a lot of people running Why am I not using my iPad and doing all those incredible things on putting out graphic novels on iPads or doing mind mapping on on these apps, they have no connection.
So for me my creative philosophy has to be actual physical touch and getting my hands dirty. And so that's really it but creative process is what it's about.
(04:53):
Can you walk us through what typical design process is for you from concept to final execution. Yes, so mind mapping is the core of my being, and I use it even in people use because I do work with a lot of vulnerable young people.
So you have a crisis, you bring out the paper and pen, and you listen and you draw it out as they're working. But as it so say that I'm given a project, I could be given for example I do a lot of work with schools, not with the students but with the teachers so within
(05:28):
the school for example who are working on the big project for the year 2024 to 2025 for example would be there looking at revisioning and making a new mission statement for their school.
It's a huge ask. So I pull out my paper and pen for myself and bizarrely my mind maps now become wall size. It's just more and more, but I simply vomit out for lack of a better word, the initial thing so I put the core thing in the middle.
(05:59):
I have all these ideas and then I look at it, type it all out, refine refine. That's actually also how I work with the teachers so when they. So I'll come into a room of 70 teachers who know don't want to be there because they're, it's professional
development they and they're not excited they want to be home.
So you draw first, so you always interact with the philosophy that you're trying to get at the project you're trying to get at by, by getting your hands dirty. And then they have to mind map and dialogue.
(06:32):
That's what I'm thinking about. And then I will then type out all that and refine it see the main points, and that works with screenwriting. It works with designing a project it works with planning your day, but it really is about allowing every thought to come out initially
and not worried if it has something to do with it.
And see the main points and refine. It's a great way to build character and situations as well all those things so it relates to everything. What would you say the framework for approaching a new design brief looks like.
(07:05):
How do you interpret and then translate them into creative concepts. So for a good example is the mission and vision statements for the school could be a good kind of project to look at.
And so for them that means new PDFs new website design a new logo all those things that kind of feel for me, who works very messily. How does that work for me, but what it is I take come in and get refine what the outcome is so then I'll actually use.
(07:40):
I do use the cloud generators from, you know, all translate the mind map into a document. And then I'll look physically but also put it through the app to see what are the main points that are coming out what are people saying, refining what I see are the
main points are really, but also using every chop that I've ever learned through all the years of working with various populations on how to read a room, how to see where people are nodding, how to read what somebody wrote on a piece of paper because I keep everything
(08:11):
that people write, and they might have written a tiny little thing but you see that they didn't dare to say it, and it could be the thing. So having typed everything out first and then finding the main points can really help.
And then I start to see maybe their core values come out and how do we make those core values become a mission statement. But then, what are the, what is the landscape around the place that you're at with the people that you're working with so say that you're
(08:41):
working with an organization or a corporation, where are they sitting in space, indigenizing the approach so that they understand what underneath the building under who brought came into that building what was there before and knowing the roots underneath.
So that it's just a way to be in place and understand how does that place feed our outcome. And then what are the visuals that come up so then allowing people to really feedback it becomes a very interactive approach, because I have seen other people come in
(09:12):
and work with, this is how I work. This is how the outcome is, I will deliver these logos and these big art pieces, but they're mine, but for me it's a constant interaction to a point where you you know you can then go okay well now this is actually my art piece
and let you really interact so that people agree on the content. And then it's up to the designer the artist to kind of take their artistic ability and transform it, but people feel heard, right, they, you know, oh, we wanted a woodpecker and an eagle and this guy on
(09:48):
there that works it because that is really about blah blah but it's to me. It really has become the restorative practices are coming into that work because people want to be heard. And so that comes into the design concept for sure as the so that people are attached to it
in a deeper way. Who or what are your main influences when it comes to design, is there anything in particular that you relate to when you're going through that process.
(10:16):
I have lots of influences. I am a Learn-a-holic in terms of, you know, literature, artists, music, dance, scientists. However, the core person that changed my life was Linda Berry, and Linda Berry is a renowned comic artist so she started, she was had a syndicated comic which is kind of a dreamy thing to think about.
(10:45):
Back in like the late 70s early 80s, called Ernie Pook's and then Marley's World and they were really ahead of their time because they were about puberty and growing up and family issues in this comedic way but it was syndicated in local papers.
She went to the Portland School of Art with Matt Groening who created The Simpsons. So they certainly come from that place where they're taking personal stuff and bringing it in. And then she now is the guru of engaging people in design.
(11:22):
And so she works out of the University of Wisconsin, and however she's global, her art transformed from comics. They're all very, they're very raw, they're very handwritten, drawn into this, her book. She actually became an artist in residence at Capilano University in BC, which is incredible.
(11:47):
So she will collage together she'll use art she'll do all sorts of things that make books about exploration. What is writing? What is drawing? She feels drawing and writing are the same, because it's like you're making marks on paper or whatever.
But she feels that it's a biological process. And then she has demystified the approach to it, to drawing that it's not for visual artists only, or musicians only. Art is for everyone to engage in deeper output.
(12:21):
And so her courses are really popular, and very hard to get into. And, but other, it's all faculties are taking it so it's not about the it's the visual artists kids that are in there, there can be.
But there is within medicine there's all sorts of things and so people are doing their thesis as a comic book, all those kinds of things so she is a huge influence.
(12:45):
And it's all about humor and I use some of her exercises engaging people. So if people I work with are designing something, if they're working on a film or something or they're working on their animation.
I will engage them first with his very rudimentary funny kind of drawing styles and things to get just to loosen it up.
(13:06):
And she is the big one, and, and she won like the MacArthur genius award and all these things, because of her ability to engage people deeper and help them demystify their approach to their work.
And certainly now a big influence on me is using is, or I guess maybe I'm kind of influencing to is you within healthcare is using visual narrative in order to create deeper engagement within the reports that are coming out within sessions
(13:41):
and stuff so the it's kind of moving away from the very fancy boring PowerPoints, you know, and certainly there's a group that I work with at SFU Simon Fraser University, who are really looked at I helped illustrate one of their books is really looking at how to engage
(14:02):
students in a deeper way because they noticed that students were coming in to the design courses and leaning back, closing their eyes and waiting for the PowerPoint.
And in a course that is all about, you know, interacting with humanity kind of thing and output. So they started using the doodling approach and things like that and so that's what we're really exploring is how to teach professors to doodle while they teach, but with their
(14:30):
hand, not, you know, with any technology yes technology can be all this stuff but and and then so people need to interact, and then some of the homework is actually handed in on paper.
Now, moving into visual media and visual communication. We all know visual media plays a real crucial role in brand identity and viewer engagement. So, how do you approach the creation of visual media to ensure that they're both memorable, but also effective.
(15:01):
Certainly my personal work is moving into full time art now, which is really exciting as I move away from facilitation within youth programming into because I have you know I'm working on graphic novels I have one that I'm completing now but also I have four lined up after this which is really exciting that all have taken everything that I've learned
(15:26):
of my life. However, I'm becoming unique in the graphic novel world, ironically, is that everything I do is hand drawn, and I'm not finessing it so I'm scanning the original drawing but there is.
So my approach, I want to see the dirt, I want to see the fingerprints, I want to see the rawness of the process. And that has actually made me unique and which is ironic because the more we design like everyone else the less people are engaging with it.
(15:59):
What is unique about your approach but do you love to so certainly, you know, there is even the approach with the using AI, you can be really creative using that stuff. Right and not don't let it hold you back and and use all the new technology it's really wonderful
watching my niece and nephew like 10 and now 13 almost just so naturally interact with the digital world. And I'm not like I wish I could do that I'm more like, I'm going to do what I love to do and then all of a sudden that's become unique and so I actually saw at
(16:37):
Vancouver Comic Arts Festival this year, which is a massive conference kind of festival about comic arts, that there was a massive push for zines hand photocopied, meaning so little comics that you do yourself.
$5 each, but you actually physically drew them photocopy them with the sound of a photocopier and then hand stapled them. And so there's this push for hands on stuff again. And, and, and also about limited edition things and so, you know, I made a broad sheet prologue for my graphic novel, meaning a newspaper,
(17:18):
because the graphic novel originated from a news article, but the fact that people are interacting with my work and literally getting ink on their hands is really interesting. Right. So yeah, I'm for me it's just about being very authentic to your own desire and vision and yeah, getting your hands dirty as I always say.
What's the most significant changes? There may even be just one major change, but things that you've seen in the field of visual media design over the past few years. What I love seeing is independent content creators that the YouTubers that are sharing what they love to do and not waiting, just doing it so you can look back at their old YouTube's and they can be clumsy,
(18:06):
but they're just as engaging as the fancy ones now that they've learned some editing and stuff like this. What I'm really seeing within the fields I care about within mental health within patient centered care is patient centered care.
So the healthcare industry is now changing to engaging patients within their visual narratives. And so the reports are now no longer about data as much as so you know people interacting with the healthcare industry being a doctor, a nurse provider, patient can be really overwhelming
(18:45):
and cold. And now they're looking at individual narratives from the doctors from the nurses from the patients and creating more an interactive thing either online as a book within graphic medicine.
I love the fact that UBC has crest BD which is their bipolar disorder studies, and they do YouTube things they put out newspaper so I see this design of more people not holding back, but putting it out there right away.
(19:18):
Because people are wanting stuff and then allowing it to be as messy as it needs to be and then you can develop from there. But I think it is about the individual has the right now to create.
I, you know, it's, it's very old school now to me to get a approach to buy a producer who asks, Can we, you know, can we negotiate with you regarding putting your story as a Netflix series for example.
(19:48):
And I say no, because one, I don't want to be, but also, it's because I, that is not about me. That is about them wanting content, and then their CEO to get $33 million. It is not, and I might be offered $2,500 for them to hold it for 10 years.
So there is I love the fact that this content independent content creation has actually empowered people to say no to those kind of things, and to create. Now I guess we get to the exciting topic of the role of technology.
(20:21):
How have you seen the advent of digital technology and you know all these new media platforms. Have you seen them influence your design work, particularly in the realm of visual media.
Yes, it's really exciting you know as I've gone on and on about in terms of my hand drawing but how do you then you can't like photocopy an 18 by 24 page thing and it's not good, you can't necessarily photograph a drawing all those things so um, what happens with for my personal
(20:51):
work. I will do things like work, I will have a website that I dumped my creative process into some of it is private because it's going to be the book, but some of it is just me sharing creative process so there's my interaction with online.
It's not big anymore on Instagram and all that stuff it used to be really fun when it back in the day in the olden days when people were sharing creative process. It's a very different animal now but so I no longer really interact that way but I find having
(21:25):
a voice is really good. I have lots of people in my roster who do a different thing so that somebody might make a sound bath that reflects my book, so that someone who cannot, who may be blind, can interact with the sound.
So those kind of things looking at, you know, how do we make it inclusive and unique ways for people who are coming in and interacting with your work. And then in terms of bringing my personal stuff into a book form.
(21:57):
I would invest in a really high end scanner, but then can transform that into digital ready medium for the publisher who then does the rest in terms of getting it all printed. So, but I also always need to put, I will always take a photo of my finished
page and put it up through the computer, and not to change it, but to see it. I need that that distance that's why I also loved when I did Instagram in the back, I could see it. I can see not the way people were interacting with it, I could distance
(22:30):
myself from it and see actually doesn't work or that really works and I'm coming into it. But then a big part of that to the way you interact with your art and the way they put it out is to turn off, not turn off that's the wrong word is to dance with the
inner critic, and not think about what do people want to see, but what is it that makes me unique. And so really, that's what's good about practicing putting it online in that sense and, you know, and seeing what is it that makes this excellent from my perspective.
(23:03):
Right and not comparing yourself to others who have already put out this stuff. But for me, yes, it's very important for me to have that distance by putting it online. I don't do, you know, and I have to do PowerPoints and all that stuff but I find that, you know, putting a sound
bath, putting music to really helps to for people to interact with it in a really unique way. What are your thoughts on the use of emerging technologies, you know, we've got AI, we've got augmented reality. How do you see those in design? Do you see them as tools that enhance
(23:38):
creativity, or as a potential challenge? I'm always a fan of anything new is exciting. I recall being in a music store and buying my first cassette, and the frenzy in the media about the problems with cassettes, and it's going to ruin the music industry. And then that same thing came out with music videos.
(24:03):
This is going to change. Oh my gosh, there's not going to be any more concerts or everybody now has to be a filmmaker all those things, whereas like embrace the challenge. And I sense, because as we're seeing like AI can be really exciting. I mean, you get some really great ideas from it, but also can be look really amazing.
It could also be terrible like just crappy. It can be as with anything that humans get their hands on they can really mess it up. They can use it for evil, they can use it for good all those things, but it can be its own art tool.
(24:39):
You know there have been some exciting digital only exhibitions that I've gone to which is really exciting because that was a hard thing for galleries to embrace like, and so there will be really interesting art installments, films made with AI.
At the same time humans will always create and rise the occasion and be hungry so you know a lot of bands use cassettes now they put out their music on cassettes on LPs.
(25:06):
And they, you know, people are recording with a crappy recorder.
People are hungry for Oh, I have my iPhone four and I filmed it and it looks amazing because he is so you become hungry for the old stuff. I think people love to complain and get all worried and everything like that and, but I think the more we rise the occasion the less
(25:29):
power it has. And, and it's always been the same right ever since even the, you know, when the book, the printing press came out there was uproar. And so I think AI can be really incredible and I think it could save a lot of time.
Because there can be people who want a particular monster looking thing and then the artist will create it. And they're like, I don't like it and then you got to go back and oh gosh and I personally don't really like illustrating for people it's really hard because they have
(26:02):
their own vision. Let them create the vision.
How do you stay updated with all of this because there's a lot that's happening with latest technology and all the advancements, how do you integrate them into your work.
I think it is because now I you know, because I am a program director of a digital media program I have to kind of stay updated. However, my role is more with the youth themselves, right and then also when I teach my part which is drawing and storyboarding
(26:31):
and it's actually hands on drawing people are literally using paper and pen. So I stay updated, because of the people I work with like my brother for example so he's the one that is showing the latest rope, the young people in my life.
You know my children.
And all of this is happening out in the world. That's how I stay updated but I'm very, I love media and I love, you know, ingesting things so that's kind of how I see it. I'm not very good with buying the latest tool and reading the manual, my brother when he was younger
(27:05):
and still does will read the actual manual, which is incredible for me it's like, ah, I'm going to just as so my brother was showing style sheets on Word, which is a very handy tool to know.
And he said like does anybody here use a spacebar to indent and I was like oh god, because there was no desire to fit I was just like this is the tool I have. This is how I do it. And so I'm not really good. However, I'm constantly creating.
(27:35):
I'm constantly getting up to date so now when I'm doing when I have a problem or a page that doesn't work. I'll use the tools that I've done like all I never stopped creating it's probably annoying to people.
So I can't really watch a movie without embroidering or having a paintbrush in my hand and fiddling around. And so all of a sudden all that feeds into so as young people are fiddling around and doing stuff on tick tock and stuff they're ingesting a lot of new stuff,
(28:04):
and they're constantly up on it constantly. And there was a young person I worked with who is extremely vulnerable.
She still is as an adult, but she came into the program.
Just, you know, I had known her before and pulled her in and she said, you know, I've never done anything with my life like I only watch anime, and I only do this, and she was really up on everything about anime.
(28:33):
And she lent itself to the way that she edited the way that she did her cartoons and I said, Oh, everything that you've been doing is research, right, every all that time that you spent on is never wasted if that's what you love to watch and do that is part of the
art, right. So, and then staying on top of it. So but certainly I think for me personally the digital part is, is what I have. Although you know I had to get really high up on the this new scanning stuff for the stuff.
(29:05):
So that's really exciting to know how do you translate something from the analog to digital so I better stay up on that.
When it comes to creative challenges and aspirations. What would you say some of the biggest challenges have been for you that maybe you've encountered with the industry, and how did you navigate through them.
Certainly, if you're looking at within the digital media industry with filmmakers with animators with all these things is a lack of funding, and the creatives should ideally be allowed to create because you want you need to continuously explore, and that
(29:44):
does take time.
It always comes down to funding even with films even with, you know, books, anything like that it's all about the funding model. And I think overcoming the challenge is just to stay in that creative process and never see that your bread and butter work is negative.
(30:05):
And I know you may not be a filmmaker right now and you are waiting tables or whatever. Totally cool, because, you know, it's, you can be just thinking about it your whole life, and never putting anything out but that's your own personal little journey.
And it doesn't necessarily have to go to the millions to be amazing right so.
(30:27):
So funding comes down to the big issue, and people can feel really defeated, looking into the future, all the way ahead. What are some of the goals and projects that you aspire to achieve or work on in the next few years, my goal is that you know I have worked with
thousands of youth in various ways, so delivering. Call it I call it creative engagement, I'm not an arts board certified art therapists, but I do therapeutic art approaches so those have been really great but I have learned from all the use that I've worked with.
(31:02):
I've taken a lot in from that and it then translates into my work, my work is very human based, very looking at psych the psychology of humanity. And so my personal goal is to move away from having to do that kind of bread and butter work, even though it's been really
(31:23):
rewarding but I am getting older, and going now into my the last hopefully third of my life into really focusing on these projects that I have been really wanting to do.
When we talk universal themes and design, what would be your opinion that something that unites designers across different cultures and disciplines in the universal quest to create something simple, functional, and beautiful.
(31:50):
That's a fascinating thing and I think the universal overarching theme within design and how to engage people is the storytelling aspect.
But a story could be just a dot that you know it's really interesting to see how do you minimize something and so I think the universality is how are you, how is the person engaging with it, are they engaging with it physically, visually,
(32:19):
you know sound, whatever it is, are they coming into a space and feeling it, all those things but the you to me it's about who you're designing it for.
You're designing it for someone, if you're only designing for yourself, whatever, but if you're hired to do something.
Yes, you may think about who are coming into that space, who are interacting with your final thing and then what is the quickest way they can get the message. And so that really does come down to that process of trying everything initially and refining and refining
(32:55):
and refining that's why it really within creative writing for example, you know you can take 10 pages and refine it down to a sentence.
Where you go, oh my gosh, to me the universal aspect is one, stay in creative process so that you can try it all.
And then let go of some things you don't have to show it all, but it's still under there. There's a fantastic quote that I came across but I don't know if you know who Hillary Mantel is she wrote Wolf Hall and she was, she just died recently last year, but she is
(33:31):
extraordinary brilliant British writer like one of my favorite authors, and she wrote the whole series on Henry VIII and it's spectacular.
But she, everything was a fictionalized approach to these stories and very personal stories as well. But she researched heavily very similar to the way I approach I just ingest and I think that is what you do as a designer to just ingest.
(33:59):
And then what comes out doesn't have to have it all I think some people make it wrong by putting too much in, and then letting go but you know the detail that's under there so that one little thought you know how it got there right and that's the thing but I think to not needing to show
everybody everything, although it's sometimes you know too much can be really cool thing too it depends on the thing but yeah it's about refining and but knowing who your audience is.
(34:30):
And because not everybody needs to understand it, but the people and so I've done some interactive art. I've done some work with public art people and it's really interesting to see how they have to.
How they're approached to it and getting the funding to do so they actually have to design the whole thing, initially and see if it works, but then these particular as I worked with one in particular, he will submit the design.
(35:03):
So it could be for example the entrance to a new hospital. And it could have all these incredible ways that people are kind of interacting with this lobby as they come in and making it an interesting space to be in.
So it's not about paintings on the wall it's about like where things hanging how simple. Why are people looking at power the interacting, but he will design that propose it get the funding for it but then he has brought me on to do the creative engagement with
(35:34):
the people who are going to walk into the space, which I really like so that that changes his ideas a little bit because then they're kind of going, you can he he can see where it's like, they're not really, and they're also getting their voice in there
and so he always make sure that the finished product has a process. After the funding it's in place. Now we know design plays a major role in shaping our everyday lives but what role do you believe it does in shaping our everyday lives and society at large.
(36:06):
Yeah, it's really interesting how, like living in Vancouver for example you see a very mishmash of things it doesn't always kind of look pretty. You know there used to be a prettier skyline.
It's an interesting way I can see the changes. I think there, I would ideally love design to start embracing the old with the new.
(36:30):
I think there are some things that I like the ones where they actually. There's some really beautiful apartment buildings I live in the West End by Stanley Park but there's some really beautiful apartment millings that have retained the exterior of the historical building
and then built around it so there's this acknowledgement of the past.
(36:51):
And then there's also, what are our roles as settlers, making.
And in terms of the first peoples and their design aspect and having acknowledging that, you know, supporting that hands off from that all those various things.
(37:15):
You know, let's save some things as well. Some of those old buildings and all that stuff but how does it, you know, to me the overall design has to be smooth and interactive and fun visually you know you can be on a bus and get really attracted to that
poster up there. And then sometimes you don't even see it. What is it that made you stop and really see it I like accidental collisions when they design things where people have to kind of interact unexpectedly with something.
(37:50):
I'm a big fan personally and it sounds bad is of graffiti, street art and graffiti. And I, you know, obviously, don't tag businesses, I, and people's homes I freaking hate that kind of thing.
I love, you know, you go on a train and you see that stuff, even on the train. I mean it's just this, this sort of an art and I like anarchy in art and design, and less asking for permission.
(38:22):
You know, you can use the money and just do it kind of thing. Yeah, so but I think in terms of overall when you look at a city, what is it that's working what's not working and sometimes really new things interact well there's a new building by the churches on
the right and Nelson. So, a church actually sold their land to to help fund the church, the church is still beautiful it's been renovated, but this building it just doesn't feel right beside it.
(38:54):
The other church across the street has a building also that feels much righter with that it's really interesting and looking at what are designed why are certain coffee shops really fun to be in, and why do some not work like the it's really fascinating
and obviously it's not general has to be very independent but yeah.
That's almost a wrap. We're just at the end again thank you so much for taking this interview. If you could give one piece of advice to aspiring designers, what would it be, stay in creative mode doesn't have to be the end result.
(39:29):
Yeah, keep your creative expression going.
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