Brothers in Civil Service

Send us a text

Two brothers share their journey through decades of emergency services, exploring how childhood experiences and family influence shaped their careers in firefighting and law enforcement. Their candid conversation reveals the true nature of first responder life beyond the uniforms.

• Growing up at a dangerous intersection where regular accidents occurred prepared them for careers in emergency services
• First traumatic calls created lasting memories that still remain vivid decades later
• Coping with trauma requires various mechanisms including dark humor, peer support, and professional counseling
• The unique "family dynamic" between first responders creates bonds that transcend personal differences
• Working in the same city created interesting intersections between fire service and law enforcement
• Mental health challenges are real and seeking help is essential for survival in these professions
• The importance of staying victim and family-focused even during the most difficult calls
• Advice for civilians: remember first responders are human beings trying to help others in crisis

If you're enjoying the podcast, please follow us, like or rate us on whatever system you're listening to us on, subscribe to our podcast and download episodes. Visit our website at www.deviantcriminology.com or find us on Facebook and Instagram @Deviant_Criminology.

www.deviantcriminology.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:39):
All right.
So this is another episode ofDeviant Criminology.
This is kind of a specialepisode.
Heather and Rachel both kind ofhave some family things going
on, so I decided to try and dosomething a little bit different
.
So I have brought the Mario tomy Luigi, if you would like to
introduce yourself, man.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
I'm Michael and I happen to be his big brother.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yes, so this is my, my big brother, michael.
Mike and I obviously not onlygrew up together but somehow
ended up in civil service Megoing the EMS and law
enforcement route, and he was alot more professional and able
to keep his career going as afirefighter and also an EMT.
So I wanted to kind of take theopportunity and do this kind of

(01:25):
special episode, kind of justtalking about like where, how we
ended up, where we did, kind ofalmost like a reflection of
like that dying remembrance.
Like the light's about to fadeand you're seeing your past, uh,
your past flash before youreyes.
So I guess kind of like kind ofwhere it starts out for us is
really mom.
I think so like you kind ofwant to talk about because you

(01:46):
were there a little bit morewith kind of just responding to
things that happened at theamazing intersection we lived at
.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, for the house we grew up in the summer, you
know, game show wasn't.
If there was going to be a badwreck right out in front of the
house, it was going to be howmany and how bad for the summer.
And you know, if you rememberyou know it was it was bad
enough that we actually had gobags in that front little living

(02:17):
room closet with towels,bandages, you know, bottled
water, all that kind of crap andeverything.
And it was, you know.
You'd hear the wreck and lookout the window and mom would
start.
You know.
Hey, you know, grab a bag, grabtwo bags, you know.
And next thing, you know, we'reout in the middle of the street
and you know our neighborhoodstreet was fine but the cross

(02:38):
street was a frickin' four-laneUS highway, so we had some
pretty ugly things growing upand you know what?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
two house fires?
Yeah, two house fires rightthere.
One of them was started by kidsthrowing matches in a empty
what they thought was an emptygas, can not realizing that it's
the fumes.
And that was my friend actually.
I went to high school with uhwell, elementary school with
that caused that, with someother kids playing around.
But yeah, I always rememberlike every old towel went into

(03:10):
the closet and they were usedfor one of two things responding
to whatever car accidenthappened in the street, or
kittens, like somehow I justremember there were a lot of
kittens born in that house, likeit was just very, but I think
it was like kind of mom, likeshe just had that nature, like
you don't ignore things whenthey happen, um, and then being

(03:31):
brought up in that environmentwhere you're helping people.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
I know that was really a an influence at a young
age, I know, on me yeah, and Ithink part of it too was, you
know, the local fire station got, you know, knew when it was
meatloaf night also, because youknow mom would use the smoke
detector for the timer for themeatloaf and somehow cause a
grease fire almost every time.

(03:55):
But I think that probably had alot for me too.
But what I didn't realize was,you know, I wanted to do this as
a kid and everything.
But what was funny is rightafter mom and dad got married
and we moved to Indianapolisapparently that's when she
started meeting the localfirefighters there was an

(04:16):
incident at the very first houseI lived in and I found a
photograph of me in the frontyard of that house wearing one
of the firefighters coats andhelmet, and I didn't even know
that picture ever existed.
So for me and everything, likeyou said, for us as kids, I
think we were just kind of, Imean, led that way just from the

(04:39):
way things happened and the waymom was.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, and I also think, um, so for those just
tuning in, uh to kind of chapter45, page 196 of my my dad, and
then you also have your father.
But your dad was, I mean, heserved, he was in the military,
he did law enforcement, and thenour dad did 25 years in the
Navy as well.
So both I mean kind of we werealways surrounded by people in

(05:20):
uniform that were kind ofserving in some way, and I don't
know, I know that had aninfluence on me going in the
Navy, but so did also notwanting to go to jail.
So well get into that?

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Well, we always.
We had a running bet for a longtime and everything you know
that we knew you were going toend up on one side of the law or
the other, either in jail orputting people in jail.
Yeah, one side of the law orthe other, either in jail or
putting people in jail.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
So yeah, so when did you cause?
I don't kind of remember this.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
When did you first get into like civil service?
Um, it was literally.
It was literally like twomonths after we got married and
it was October of 98.
Um, when I first became avolunteer, I had already taken

(06:22):
my EMT class and got mycertification around the same
time, had applied for where Iwork now and was just waiting
through that process but got onwith a volunteer department.
I was like you know what, let'sjust go this route and try it
out and see if I like it.
And that first night oftraining and everything I was,
you know, just pretty muchhooked.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
I remember.
So there was two ways.
One, ems just kind of feltright when I got out.
I think you were already doingit at that point and I had
started working as a corpsmanwith the Navy, the navy so I was
really interested in.
So I got certified and, yeah,like the first night of training
, because I started emt basicfirst and it was really
interesting because that was ashort class, like if you're

(06:55):
interested in ems basic, likeyou can do that on your own,
like there are places you take.
I went to a career place inindianapolis and took it, but it
wasn't really until that.
First when you go through EMTschool, like the last week, you
have to do a ride along and I'llalways remember that first ride

(07:15):
along.
The first time the sirens cameon, we were running emergent to
a cardiac and there was aGorillaz song on.
I will never forget that.
That was like 23 years ago andthat song every time still gets
me hyped because that was thefirst song that was playing when
I ran Emergent.
Is there anything like that?
Is there something thathappened that always grains in

(07:36):
that first run?
Oh God For me.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
It's how I have a hard time forgetting a lot of
things I wish I could.
We'll get to that, you know.
Yeah, no, the very very firstcall I had on my first ride
along August, in the middle ofthe country, neighbors reported
a horrible smell.

(08:00):
Guy hadn't been seen for fivedays.
No AC in the house.
Yeah, you see where I'm goingwith this yeah, I had a.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
I had a similar call.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
I'll let you finish yours, you know yeah, you know,
the whole five day old dead guyin the house in August with no
AC.
Yeah, and that was, you know,the very first call I had, you
know, my first ride along andeverything and it was like, yeah

(08:36):
, this, this sucks, but you know, was that?

Speaker 2 (08:40):
was it like natural causes?
Honestly, I don't think I everheard I think they assumed so
because he was an older guy Ihad a case like that that I got
sent to a house a welfare checkand got to the house, couldn't
see anything.
So we walked to the perimeterand I remember looking in the
window and there were tons offlies on the kitchen window and

(09:03):
we're like that's a bad sign.
So my sergeant was like well,kick in the door.
So we went to the back, triedto kick down that door, could
not budge that door.
So of course there startsthough, and we'll get into like
kind of how that's dealt with.
But him talking shit, like youknow, oh, come on, like be a man
, like kick the door.
So we went around the front andI kicked the entire door frame

(09:31):
in because I was like overadrenaline, like fuck this guy
talking smack.
So but when we got to the back,this guy was a vietnam veteran
and he had barred every.
He had four steel bars acrossthat back door, so there was no
way we were getting in.
Uh, in fact it was bad enoughthat we thought there were booby
traps, but yeah, when, when wegot in, he had definitely he had
already started almost mummify.
So it had been about five daysand initially it looked
suspicious.
And that one just will alwaysstick with me because we could

(09:56):
tell exactly when he had passed,because he always took notes of
like every bathroom break.
He took like everything.
He took very detailed diariesof it.
No-transcript.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
Well, at the time I kind of, you know, needed a
decent job and you knoweverything to.
You know the whole married,getting married thing and all
that, um, but no, I just, youknow, because I'd looked at
other things, kind of forgot,you know, you said, oh, you know
, when you're a kid, hey, Iwanted to be a fireman, I want
to be an astronaut, I want to do, you know, whatever you know, I
want to, you know, wear a fuzzyorange wig and make balloon
animals for, you know, for kids.
Um, but sometimes you get awayfrom that and I had, but it just

(11:06):
, I don't know.
It just kind of came backaround, like you know, some
things in life do.
And you know, I was like, youknow, my wife and I had talked
about it and it was like, okay,you know, you know, hell, let's
give it a shot and see whathappens.
But then again, that's why, youknow, after applying and
testing and all that, I was like, hey, this is a good way to
find out if it's something thatmight be for me to go the

(11:27):
volunteer route because it's alot easier to get on with the
volunteer department.
And it just, yeah, just kind ofcame around and there you go.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
And that was kind of different for me because I don't
think I mean it was prettyknown Like I kind of was a
troublemaker as a kid.
Like I got into some trouble, Iran with some rough crowds, um,
okay, to say the least, I thatwas a y'all can't see his face,
but it was definitely some bugeyes, like you know.
But it wasn't until like afterI got out of the military, when

(11:54):
I was in the military and I'vetalked about this on different
episode um, after Columb got meinterested in just kind of the
psychology of how something likethat happened and I tried to
start college.
It went to shit the first timeI went.
But I was really interested incriminal psychology and I was

(12:14):
talking to some guys that I knewwhere I was living at the time
and they're like, if you'reinterested, why not try to be a
police officer?
That's the best way to try andmake an impact in this field,
especially in the area you'retalking about, about violence
prevention and stuff.
And that's kind of how it was.
Almost by happenstance I was anEMT at the time.
I applied not really thinkingI'd get it, and I think it took

(12:35):
two months and I got hired anddid it for a while until I
pissed off enough people and gotsick enough that I just
couldn't do it anymore.
But what was it like for you?
Like going through training?
I?

Speaker 3 (12:47):
don't know, it was kind of weird because you know
it didn't.
You know getting into more ofthe mental aspect of it and you
know it was a good thing.
They probably didn't do psychevals on us at the time, but I
mean I actually enjoyed it.
It'll kick your ass and allthat and everything, but I

(13:11):
enjoyed it.
I enjoy a lot of it and stuff,but it was not meant to tear you
down, but it definitely pushesyou and stresses you to the
point of it's meant.
Best way to describe training isit's meant to prepare you but

(13:32):
at the same time it's meant toshow you okay, can you do this?
Is it?
Is this the right spot for you?
After all?
You know cause you can gothrough the first two weeks and
be like, oh, hey, this is great.
And then all of a sudden, allright, now it's ass-kicking time
and different departments aredifferent on their training and

(13:52):
everything.
Ours is unbelievably better nowthan it was even four years ago
.
But at some point it gets tothe point where it's like, all
right, you know, enough gladhanding and all that kind of
stuff.
We're putting the books downand we're going out and you know
, hey, you know, here's atraining, building that room and

(14:15):
there's on fire.
Have fun.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
How much of it like?
Obviously a lot of it's abouthow to fight a fire, which in my
aspect is run, but you know,you're the one that runs into
them.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
Um, but um, how much of it back then, compared to now
, was medical as well.
Um, see, it's, it's differentbecause for us, like before,
like when I applied near thing,you had to have your EMT you
know minimum of your EMT basicbefore you got hired on Um, and
you know, of course, too, youknow the state that I'm in is

(14:57):
there a lot of states they have.
They use the national registryfor their you know their EMS
certifications, industry fortheir you know their EMS
certifications.
The state I'm in is our boardof EMS is above, I mean, goes
beyond that and everything.
So it's, it's a different setuphere.
You know, back then we had tohave it.
Now we have changed becausenumbers dropped on, you know,

(15:18):
for people testing and all thatbecause you got a lot of people
that Wait, you guys can fuckingread Okay, sorry, well, yeah,
okay, sorry, yeah, well, yeahyou know well, you know shapes
and colors, you know, and for meyou know, being colorblind and
everything you know, shapes youknow, point at the dog.

(15:38):
But it's now because the numbersdwindled for the testing and
everything like bad.
I mean, it was like when Itested there was like 800 people
.
We had to borrow two of thelargest lecture halls at you
know the university here in townand for two days and stuff to
get everybody in testing.
And here, you know, four orfive years ago we were getting

(16:01):
like I think one test was 37people, but a lot of that was
because you got people that theway they do the EMS here and
stuff like that, the EMT classesor schooling is longer, you
have to have so many hours andeverything and all this People
either didn't have the timebecause of their jobs they had
currently, or they couldn'tafford it, or a combination

(16:22):
thereof, and all that Schoolingwas limited back then too.
The university here now, atleast I think it's either the
university or the actual schoolsystem that shares the same name
they actually have a technicalschool now that does an EMT

(16:43):
course and stuff, um, and also,you know, like some nursing and
all that kind of stuff.
So that actually helps people.
Now too, um.
But, like now, the way we doour Academy is you don't have to
have your EMT to get hired onnow, um, but once you get done
with the fire Academy part isand I can't remember if it's an

(17:03):
extra four or six weeks thatwill do the ems part and
everything and then get youready to test.
You have two chances to pass thetest.
If you don't, bye, felicia, um.
But also you have to sign acontract saying that you will
stay with the department for aminimum of two years, because me

(17:25):
personally, I feel it should bethree years, because where
we're situated and all thatyou've got, I mean you can go
four different directions andhit bigger cities and all this
kind of stuff and I still thinktwo years is not enough for
somebody to get rooted in towhere they might not still leave
, and we'll be like, screw it,I'm out of stuff.
And I still think two years isnot enough for somebody to get,

(17:45):
you know, rooted in to wherethey might not still leave, and
you know we'll be like, screw it, I'm out of here.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, just that that return on investment of how much
you're putting into somebodyand then another department kind
of snakes your people away soyou're spending more money,
right?
How, how?
How long was that training?
Um?

Speaker 3 (18:04):
I don't remember.
It's longer now than when,cause they revamped everything.
If you know about 10 years ago,Go with now.
What was it now I honestlydon't remember.
I want to say I want to saylike 144 hours, 164 hours,
something like that.
Um, I could be wrong.
I could be thinking ofparamedic no, I don't know.
I could be thinking ofparamedic no, I don't know.

(18:25):
I think paramedics areparamedics.
Two years, Because paramedicsare damn near a freaking college
degree out here now.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Well, because I know for the police academy I went to
two.
One was nine weeks and that wasbecause that was more of a
special assignment, that wasn'ta full police academy.
The second one was six monthsand of course I had some of the
bait, all the stuff you thinkpolice would go through pistol,
firearm taser, all the laws andall that.

(18:53):
Is there anything when you wentthrough that you wish they
would have trained you aboutthat?

Speaker 3 (18:59):
they didn't.
For me it was different becauseI got a lot of training with
the volunteer department beforeI got on with the city.
So me and the guy that gothired on with me, we both
already had a lot of those firecertifications out of the way.
So our academy was actuallyshorter than what it is now.

(19:20):
Now it's 12 weeks.
I think ours was like four atthe time, but again, things were
a lot different then.
So I mean yeah, I mean I can saythat there's a lot, but nothing
I can.
You know, I mean hell, I'mgoing into my 25th year and you
know, with this department, 27years total.
So I'm kind of like I don'tknow.

(19:41):
Kind of like I don't know.
It's kind of hard to think backto.
You know, okay, what did we doand what didn't we do that you
know could have helped?
So back, you know, back then itwas more okay, we're going to
give you the absolute basics.
And then you know, here's your,your, your book to finish up
over the next year, for yourofficers to run you through and

(20:02):
sign you off on other things too.
Where it's it's different now.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
I mean it's a ton better now for these kids yeah,
I mean I just think about thatbecause, like when I went
through the academy, lookingback and I know we're getting
better about it, uh, we've had alot of conversations from what
I do now but would have beenlike de-escalation and more
understanding of mental health.

(20:27):
I think that's something that'sgotten a lot harder to spot and
more common, especially withthe opioid epidemics and stuff
like that's just something Iwish I'd have known more about.
I do now.
I mean I'm a mental healthexpert but back then, when
you're just coming out of theacademy with no college or
anything, that would have beensomething great to know.
Like, oh, what's the differencebetween somebody that's in a

(20:49):
diabetic shock and somebodythat's schizophrenic or somebody
that's having a reaction todrugs?
Those are three differentresponses, but if you're not
trained to it, you mayaccidentally shoot or harm
somebody that's actually in amental distress.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
So that was something that always worried me, right,
and the thing too back then was,I mean, there was a different
mentality for a lot of thatstuff too, because I had a lot
of these older guys that werenot as gruff and crotchety as
the guys that brought them up,and you know that old mentality
of you know, rub some dirt on it, I don't care if your, you know

(21:27):
, your leg's broken in fourplaces, your ankles up by your
ear, here's some duct tape, youknow.
Here you go.
You know, but here again too,ems I'd have to say ems and the
fire service is, I mean, it'snot in its infancy anymore.
It's kind of like looking at itin this, you know, teenager

(21:50):
early, early 20 time frame atthis point, um, because I mean,
when I got hired on, there werestill guys on the job that were
grandfathered in, that were notcertified, you know, ms,
certified um, and, like you'resaying so, they weren't used to
dealing with, you know, peopleon that level.

(22:13):
Of course, again too, they, youknow, some of them were grumpy
enough that, you know, for lackof a better term, you know it
was like, oh, you know, fuckthem, give them a Band-Aid or,
you know, tell them to drinksome Pepto-Bismol, and here you
go.
So I mean that's changed a lot.
It's definitely become for alot of places.

(22:37):
I mean in general, general, yourun more ems calls and you do
fires, you know, and stuff likethat.
But you know, you look at twois your ems rolls into the fires
, ems rolls into, you know, thecar wrecks, obviously, and stuff
.
So there isn't a whole lot thatwe do anymore that there isn't

(22:58):
the high potential of EMS beingin it somehow.
I mean even like your hazmat,your technical rescues, you know
, your water rescues, all that.
I mean there's 99 times out of100, you're going to have some
sort of EMS.
You know issue with a callhundred.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
You're going to have some sort of EMS you know issue
with a call.
Yeah, and I know, within lawenforcement, like I was lucky
because I already had EMS but alot of places were going and
having law enforcement even getEMT certified, because a lot of
your calls are some type ofmedical that needs to be done,
you know, even if it's basiccombat first aid or something.
So especially with gunshots andthings.
But another interesting thingabout our past was that we did

(23:41):
work in the same city for awhile, yep, so that led to some
interesting things.
Um, supposedly some shit.
I did stuff that you rememberbecause I don't, but that's
usually because I'm a little bitmore dynamic.
I think the the first one Iheard about was.
So I'll set the scene forpeople.
One of the most common thingslike law enforcement does is car
stops, and I've never been aserious person.

(24:03):
So how I became a cop in thefirst place, I don't ever
fucking know.
Honestly, I do much better as aprofessor than I do ever did
law enforcement, but I love thejob.
But there was, I remember therewas a car, it was a couple of
kids in it blaring a stereo andI'm just gonna be honest, it
sounded like shit.
It definitely sounded like shit.
So I pulled them over to tellthem that there was a, an item

(24:25):
called dynamite uh, matt thatthey could put in the trunk so
it wouldn't vibrate, becausethey had 15s in their trunk.
I didn't know, becauseobviously it's a big department,
I didn't know everybody,especially the detectives and
stuff, but I guess there weretwo guys that were standing on
the side of the corner that knewyou and had heard this
interaction and then later toldyou about it.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah, I vaguely remember that.
Yeah, I vaguely remember that.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
I kind of had some smart ass moments when I was on
duty.
I used to pull people over andtell them there were cops
pulling people over, slow downin that same city.
So it might have, might havebeen one of the things.
I think it was weird for us andI want to ask about this.
I don't think I ever havebecause, like a lot you know,

(25:14):
firefighter and law enforcementis very different to a point
like we work well together, butit's two very different but
extremely dangerous jobs on bothends.
And you got a call one day thatI was involved in a shooting
and I don't think I've everasked.
I wasn't shot let's get thatclear but shots are fired and I

(25:35):
did have to use deadly force.
But I called you and I don'tthink I've ever asked like what
that was like on your end.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
Well, the first word I got before you got a hold of
me was your girlfriend got atthe time, got a hold of me, and
so that started the whole thing,because the first words out of
her mouth was richie's been shot.
And I'm like, okay, hang onwhat?
And she, and she goes, she goes.

(26:05):
Well, no, no, richie shotsomebody.
I'm like, okay, you need to getthe story straight because I'm
the one that's got to call momnext.
Yeah I really like to know whichone it is.
So then she explained, okay,what actually happened.
And then, once I got hung upwith her, you called me and
everything.
Um, it uh, I don't know it waskind of, you know, surreal.

(26:27):
I mean a I was relieved thatyou weren't on the receiving end
, you know, so kind of surprisedsome people, yeah but, but
right, but you know it's, andyou know there's times when you
know my fuse is so short it'sinverted, but a lot of times
when you know stuff, I'm I'mpretty good at sitting back and

(26:50):
say, okay, let me get all theinformation, you know, first,
before I either punch somebodyor jump out the window.
Um, so I mean, once youexplained it and everything,
it's like, okay, you know, I hadthe scenario.
It was, I was good with the factthat you were physically good
and all that.
At that point for me it wasokay.

(27:11):
You know, basically it was okaybig brother mode.
You know I knew that I was, youknow, coming down to be with
you and help you out and and allthat kind of stuff and
everything.
So it was more, you know, okay,I gotta, you know, watch him.
You know, see how he's handlingit.
You know, you know if you'reokay and all that kind of stuff,

(27:32):
because it's not something thatI've had to do but I've, you
know.
You know I've always beenreally good friends with with a
lot of you know the cops aroundhere, so it wasn't the first
time I'd, you know, seen thelook on the face when it's
happened to me.
I'd actually run some of thosecalls.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Well, that happened.
That happened right next to thestation you were assigned to at
the time too.
Like one block away, yep.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah, and I just happened to be off duty.
But yeah, no, it was.
You know, like I said, once itgot out of the way that you were
physically safe and unharmed,it was just okay.
You know I need to, you know,go take care of my little
brother and all that, and I meanjust kind of went with it at

(28:23):
that point.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
And and I think that's something like that,
excuse me, that I kind of wantto like talk about a little bit
is like just the anxiety andtrauma that comes from these
fields, like lo and behold, likethat was so traumatic for me.
It was a whole type oftraumatic experience.
But when you're seeing thisstuff like every day, like how

(28:46):
do you on an individual levelkind of cope with that and deal
with that?
Because, like you said,sometimes it's hard to forget
the things that we've done andseen.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
It's you know it's funny because I was actually
just talking to somebody aboutthis Tuesday night.
They were kind of asking medifferent things because it was
a field they thought aboutgetting into but just didn't.
So we were talking about it.
It's a lot of.

(29:23):
It is a case by case, you know,thing depends on the severity.
The I mean the age range is hugethey're talking about who
you're seeing, or yeah, yeah, Imean the age range of, like, who
you're treating, what'shappening, um, you know the
cause, causality of things, um,the end result, um, you know,

(29:51):
and it was like I was tellingthis guy the other night you
know, it's pretty bad whenyou've got a top 10 list for the
worst accidents you've ever runand you're like, okay, well, uh
, and then you turn around andrun one going oh well, you know,
I, I just, you know, I'mputting a new one on the top 10

(30:11):
list and move in.
You know, shuffling crap around, um, or you know, and the thing
is the majority of those toptens.
Or you know, and the thing isthe majority of those top tens
you know, we're talking aboutthe whole, not forgetting stuff
the majority of those.
I can sit there, I can tell youwhere.
I can still tell you vehicles,types, makes, models, colors,

(30:32):
what they were wearing.
You know all this kind of stuff.
You know, calls with kids areabsolutely horrible.
There's been times when you knowwe've gotten back to the
station and I've literally justsat.
I wouldn't get off the truck,I'd literally just sit there by

(30:55):
myself.
You know, wouldn't even off thetruck, I'd literally just sit
there by myself.
You know, wouldn't even openthe door, just like, all right,
you know everybody else is away.
You know, give me my time.
So, yeah, I mean it's just, youknow we deal with things
differently.
The interaction at the stationdepending on, depending on

(31:18):
everything you know, it'll morph, it'll be, you know, for the
worst cause.
It'll be serious at first.
You know quiet discussing hey,you know, yeah, we did this, we
did this, something we couldhave done better.
And then, of course, it'll turnto our, you know, self-therapy.
You know a little bit later onand stuff, but it's, yeah, I

(31:43):
mean, it's different.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
So yeah, how do you like, how do you personally deal
with it?
Like what is kind of yourmethods that you've used, cause
I mean you've got 27 years of,like vicarious trauma.
Like what are your copingmechanisms?

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Um, like I said, I mean it's.
It goes back to that case bycase thing.
I mean there's times when I'msure I deal with it properly by,
you know, talking with the guysat the station.
Or you know, there's times whenyou know, and I didn't, for you

(32:27):
know, do this for a long time.
But now I've gotten to where,you know, my wife has talked me
into calling her and talking toher if I need to, about, you
know, about calls.
Um, there's other times when Iprobably should do that, but I
get you know I don't feel likeit's really hitting me, so I'm

(32:49):
like, oh okay, you know, blah,blah, blah.
And then later on, oh hey, youknow what you know maybe we
should do, you know, dosomething as a team or whatever,
and talk about it.
And that's one thing too thatour department and me
specifically, over the last, youknow, six, seven, eight years
has done.
We will do kind of our owndebrief on bad stuff, because I

(33:12):
don't want my guys going home,and you know so I think that
helps me too is, you know, whenletting them get their stuff out
kind of helps Also, I mean,I've got a really good counselor
and you know I don't have aproblem admitting that.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
I think that's great.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
I mean, being somebody who specializes in
mental health, I think gettinghelp is great, right, and you
know, and definitely and Ilearned the hard way finding the
right one I mean, you know,just because they're a counselor
doesn't mean they work for you.
You know, you get a counselorthat you look at and be like,
hey, well, let's take a walkover here by this cliff and look

(33:56):
at the scenery, yeah, that youlook at and be like, hey, let's
take a walk over here by thiscliff and look at the scenery,
absolutely yeah, and that's likethe more solemn side of it.
But what a lot of people don'thear or see.
Or when some do, they look atus, like you know, get this
little kind of horrified, youknow what is wrong with you,
look on their face.

(34:16):
You get this little kind ofhorrified, you know what is
wrong with you, look on theirface.
But there is some dark humorthat is very therapeutic in our
field and it's not like we'remaking light of it because we
don't care or anything, butsometimes you just have to say
something off the wall orwhatever, not maybe for that

(34:37):
specific person or incident, butjust in general.
And of course you know we'llsay stuff that has nothing to do
with it, but it's just.
That's another coping mechanismfor us to get us OK.
Hey, you know what?
Snap back to reality.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, and I think that's something that's hard for
people to understand,especially people that have
never worked.
And you know the military, lawenforcement, ems, fire, public
school teachers, that like thattype of trauma, that you see a
lot Social workers as well.
Like it's not the gallows.

(35:13):
Humor isn't really a lack ofempathy at all.
Actually it's kind of astronger empathy to a point.
But if you can't find a way tolaugh through it it will fucking
destroy you.
You know, and I think a lot ofpeople and law enforcement and
fire, the military is gettingbetter as well, but really

(35:34):
pushing like mental health andseeking that Like that's great.
I'm glad people are takingadvantage of that.
Some law enforcementdepartments and fire I assume as
well have hired social workersand psychologists for inside the
department.
Me personally it's nicotine,caffeine, dark humor.
You know the thought every oncein a while I could take a

(35:56):
toaster bath if it gets too bad.
You know those are the thingsthat keep me going.
You know that's the kind ofthat dark humor, um, but I think
you have to find those ways ofcoping with it, especially.
And for fire and EMS, I thinkuh, and law enforcement it is a
different type of stress to apoint, because I'm sure you can

(36:17):
think of like one incident thatjust sticks in your mind.
That is just like that oneincident that still, for some
reason, sticks in your head.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, there's, I wish there was just one.
The calls like that challengemore than just your.
You know empathy and itchallenges your anger management
something fierce also.
But um, yeah, I mean, and I'llbe honest with you, um, and you

(36:51):
know this is one of the one ofthe ones that's hit me hardest
over the last 10 years was wehad one that was an older woman.
I say older, this is going tohit you a little bit.
You're going to notice somesimilarities for us, but

(37:11):
56-year-old woman Was she shot,no coated.
We worked our asses off,couldn't get her back.
We weren't in the best ofneighborhoods but the way the
family I mean I think the familylived in like five of the
houses right there on the cornerand all the neighbors and stuff

(37:34):
kept coming out.
But it was a lot of the familyreaction and stuff like that.
And when we got back to thestation, I sat there for a while
and the aimless crew came tothe station too, because I was
like, hey, you know we need toget the hell out of here.
But they could see the look onmy face because a lot of the

(37:54):
pain that they were verbalizingand that I could see.
I remember feeling but notbeing able to let out.
You know, when you and dadcalled yeah About mom and that
one, that's one, that one of thenon-traumatic ones that really

(38:18):
stuck with me.
That I can, you know, I cantell you which family members,
what half of them were wearing.
You know all this kind of stuffand so it's not always a
physically you know trauma event.
It can be watching just afamily fall apart because

(38:40):
everything you did still wasn'tenough.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, I think that that's especially when you have
your own.
I mean, that's one thing that'shard.
So many people just see theuniform and like, oh, they're
made to be able to deal withtype of stress and everything.
But it's not just what happensat work.
Like we have families, you have, you know, kids and mothers and
fathers and you know, like Isaid, our mom died, you know,

(39:05):
while we're still in thosefields.
But for me, like there's thisone call I'll always remember.
We got called to a young girl inan apartment complex, found a
teddy bear in her room that shedidn't know about, hadn't seen
it, and when they looked at itfurther they found a camera.
So we showed up, did the basicinvestigation.

(39:27):
It was a camera.
We realized there was a techguy on hand that responded with
us and realized that the camerawasn't recording.
It was like a webcam.
It had to be coming fromsomeplace close by.
Through the investigation,talking to the two daughters in
the house, we were able toidentify that mom's boyfriend

(39:49):
lived right across the street inthe same apartment complex.
When we told mom she didn'twant us to push charges and
talked her daughter out ofpushing charges and daughter's
15.
So there's nothing that wecould do at that point.
Like daughter's not willing topress because mom doesn't want
to press, you know, mom's likestaying with the guy, like has

(40:12):
no problem with this, I guess,and that just always kind of
bothered me and that's one ofthose that stuck with me.
Like you do this job but youstill have to walk away knowing
that there are these people inthe world that would do
something like this and youcan't do anything about it and
it just kind of tears at you alittle bit.
And that's kind of what I thinkalso breaks, you know, balances
, that line between being thelaw and breaking the law.

(40:34):
You know, you, that linebetween being the law and
breaking the law.
You want to do something butyou don't, because you're,
hopefully, to the point, thegood guy.
It doesn't always feel that way, but you want to be.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
I don't know how many domestic abuse and assaults
that have been on.
Yeah, I kind of feel the sameway.
And then turn around and hey,three weeks later you're right
back there again and it's like,okay, you know, I thought you
were done with this and leaving.
Well, you know, and I I don't ahundred percent get it.

(41:14):
But I understand more nowbecause somehow over the last
four or five years I actuallybecame the voice of reason in a
lot of situations.
I don't know when that happenedand whoever turned that switch
on.
I want to punch them, butprobably, yeah, um, but it I've

(41:37):
come to understand.
You know that fear in that youknow more.
I mean, I still don'tunderstand.
You know, hey, just get thehell out.
But you know, some of thesepeople just feel like they have
nowhere to go.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
So I do understand it , but it is stressful for us
because, again, you know we'rethere to kind of pick up the
broken people and you know, whenit keeps happening and
happening, it's like all right,you know and I think like that
was something like domestics, Ithink, were one of the hardest
things to do A they're alwaysthe most dangerous, really, at

(42:13):
least if you're going to like adrug deal gone bad or something
you know to expect violence whenyou go to a and you know
clearly, like who's the victim,who's the suspect.
But when you go to a domesticit can turn so fast.
The person that was a victimsuddenly becomes assailant
because you're about to arrestthe person in their lives and
they have that fear that whenyou arrest them they're going to
come back and do more harm.

(42:34):
But at the same time, being asocial worker, I also learned a
lot about the control of moneyand the control of access to
children and stuff and howespecially somebody that's
willing to be an aggressor, allthe things they do to manipulate
somebody to keep them fromleaving, and how hard it becomes
.
So I think domestics probablyfor both sides, are the hardest

(42:55):
to do, because you're treatingyou don't understand and as law
enforcement, you're like I keepcoming back here.
Then you have to just keepdoing it and unfortunately one
of two scenarios either theyleave or you come back for the
last time.
Uh, and that's hard to dealwith as well.
But the the next thing I'd askabout that, because this is kind

(43:16):
of really what brought this itwas.
It was I was surprised by howlittle there was talking about,
like just for you, the firehouseand me, like the roll call room
in general, of like therelationships that you build
with the people that you workwith and how, when you, you know
you really don't know you'venever had like a normal nine to

(43:37):
five job where you go into likean office and you talk to some
people and then you leave likethere's a much bigger bond you
have with the people you workwith, even the people that
you're like.
I will throw you off a fucking10 story building if I ever get
the chance, but while we're inthis building we have to be cool
and back each other, no matterwhat.
It's just a different type ofbrotherhood I guess brotherhood

(44:00):
is kind of the wrong word nowbut almost a family dynamic that
happens when you work in thatfield, almost a family dynamic
that happens when you work inthat field.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Yeah, especially for us, because we live, you know,
we live each other 24 hours at atime.
Some departments actually 48,you know cause I've gone to 48,
96 shifts and everything which,yeah, no, but yeah, I mean
there's times, even withsomebody, you get along great
with it every once in a while,just like siblings.

(44:30):
You know somebody looks at your, are they're having a bad day
or you know they just, you know,pushed one too far and you know
they got the fart needles sothey're hurting or whatever, and
you know it's like.
So there's that always thatdynamic, but yeah, it's, it is
different.
I mean, you know, when you'reon and, like you said, there can

(44:55):
even be a difference between onand off shift.
I mean, I'm not going to lie.
There's a couple people I'veworked with that you know, off
duty I wouldn't, you know, pissin their mouth if their guts
were on fire, but on duty I'llbe damned if I'm gonna let
anything happen to them.
Um, you know, and that's withmy position and everything.

(45:15):
Now I mean I consider my numberone job is making sure my guys
go home.
That that is where I'm at andyou know we've got it's not just
me and my.
You know we've got it's notjust me and my company and we've
got another company andeverything you know stuff.
So there's more of us.

(45:35):
But I, you know, and I kind ofkind of look after the other
guys on the other truck too, andthat's just.
But again, that's how you and Iwere also raised.
You know, we we watch aftereverybody else and stuff like
that, and you know we'll takethe hard crap and all that and

(45:56):
but yeah, it is, it's likeanother family, I mean a little
more dysfunctional than your ownfamily, but it is.
It's a different dynamic that alot of people don't quite

(46:16):
understand either.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
And it's a different.
Like I was joking, I've joked alot lately with people because
I have a tendency to show up Ato sit in my car a lot.
When you're EMT or cop youspend a lot of time sitting in
your vehicle, but I also willshow up like an hour early and
that's just because I now havethis fear that I'm going to be

(46:40):
late and not where I need to be.
So I will show up an hour earlyjust because out of fear.
I don't know if that's from themilitary or law enforcement or
both, but I know that, like forme, like I had camaraderie and I
had a lot of good people I'veworked with from all walks of
life, um, and you get to knoweach other really well.
I mean again, you're spending 8, 10, 12, 24 hours a day in

(47:03):
vehicles with them or on sceneswith them and stuff.
And I think that also goes tothe damage going back to kind of
the post-traumatic stressdisorder which I mean I know I
have.
I mean I've got the trifectathe depression, anxiety, the
PTSD, and I'm open about that.
But like those calls I got whentwo of my friends were killed

(47:25):
out there in the line of dutytwo different incidences.
One was a car stop, both werecar stops.
One was a car stop when it wasjust an individual and the other
was a car stop and he waskilled with another officer.
And just like how personal thatis, like it's literally like
having a family member rippedfrom you.

(47:46):
And I think and I know the lawenforcement side and you
probably know the firefightingside because you've done some of
the um, oh shit, what is thething you did for a long time?
The honor guard stuff, thehonor guard stuff, like I know
that we have, uh, lawenforcement has a much higher
than average rate of suicide,just because people dealing with

(48:09):
the stress and not seeking helpand it just building on them,
um, that it's.
It's deadly for both fields atdifferent levels.
But from physical, mental, Imean, you fuckers drop of heart
attacks all the time.
Um, I don't know why that dropof heart attacks all the time.
I don't know why that isSitting around eating all the

(48:30):
time, playing video games andthen maybe having to go do
something once in a while.
But no, I think and I thinkthat's the other thing people
may not understand is like therivalry but yet camaraderie,
like fire and police.
Genuinely.
It's like oil and water for themost part, but that's the game.
Like it's still family.

(48:50):
It's just a dysfunctional oneright.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
Well, and you remember when you were here, I
mean things were bad between thetwo.
Oh yeah, there for a while andthen that's that's when, you
know, I started that whole.
Hey, let's play a football gametogether so we can, you know,
get it out and not do it on thestreet.
Well, yeah, um, it ended up.

(49:16):
I mean, things are a lot betternow, we get along a lot better
and stuff.
And of course, again to youknow, it's one of those things
where I show a little bit ofrespect and care and you know,
you know, hopefully you'll getit back.
But yeah, it's, you know andyou know to just to the, you

(49:41):
said something about the whole.
You know the eating sittingaround, you know playing video
games and all that.
I just want to go on the recordand say, hey, it takes a lot of
time, effort and a serioustraining to get certified to
drive a recliner.
Okay, it does.
I'm just saying Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
I do think that that's one thing.
People are going to listen tothis and be like Jesus.
What the fuck are they talkingabout?
This is a stream ofconsciousness.
There's no script to this.
We just kind of wanted to talkabout some stuff that we'd
experienced, but I think that issomething we learned from our
mom that I think moredepartments need to take on.
That we've always tried to doeverywhere we go.
It doesn't always take, butit's kind of that always trying

(50:22):
to be bridge builders and tryingto bring people together and
sometimes that works in thesefields and sometimes it doesn't,
but I do think that that's askill that we had that I wish
more people in civil service had.
Instead of sometimes trying tosee this as a competition for
the next rank up is more of a.
If we all work together, we allbenefit.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
Right, and I agree, and I think that's too, and you
know, for, like you said, thenext rank up or like the in
between the two departments kindof thing.
You know you can sit there andif you're on the same scene then
you know you got.
You know, alpha, you know lawenforcement over here, alpha,
firefighter here.

(51:07):
No, this is my scene.
No, this is my scene You'regoing to.
You know, and you know thatkind of stuff, thankfully around
here does not happen as oftenas it used to, but you know
every once in a while,especially if you get that newer
kid that you know.
You know well, you know I dothis stuff in the military and
all that kind of stuff and notknocking military.

(51:28):
You know, you know I wouldnever do that.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Look, we are special children.
Okay, we're all brokey, we allcome out of the military brokey
and a little special it's fine.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
But you know they have that mentality.
And then, okay, now I'm a cop.
And oh no, this is a caraccident, this is my scene.
But what's like okay, you know.
And then that's when you know Ihave to.
You know they're like, oh well,you need to move your truck.
And you know, look at my driver, say you need to move your
truck.
And they're like you know, no,you know, I don't make that
decision but law.
And then they'll come and sitthere and be like, you know,

(52:01):
okay, well, he's ignoring me.
And I love it when they come tome.
And there's like he's ignoringme and I love it when they come
to me.
And they're like well, he'signoring me, so who's in charge
here and everything, so that Ican get to move this truck?
And I love it because I cangrin at them and be like, well,
that would be me, and my truckis not moving.
So then you explain hey, thisis why I've got to park there,
because it's protecting yourbutt too.
But it's that, like I said,actually had an officer look at

(52:25):
me one time and say, well, thisis a car crash, everything's on
the street, this is my scene,you'll do what I say.
And I looked at him and I waslike, okay, well, I pulled out a
spare pair of medical glovesand said here you treat the
patient that's bleeding out,then We'll stand over here,
since it's your scene and you'rein charge.
And he literally looked at meand said well, I don't know what
I'm doing.
I'm like you can have thisscene when my patient is gone

(52:46):
and I make sure there are nohazards period.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
Yeah, there has to be kind of a breaching of the egos
sometimes, and I mean I thinkthe training and just the field
does that.
Like you put on a uniform Idon't care what uniform it is
you suddenly kind of have thisarrogance about you.
And it may not always be a badthing, I mean it's a good thing
for some.
But I think the other thingthat we don't talk about as much

(53:10):
and we may, I think, jokingamongst us, but like there's not
a lot of conversations about itoutside of our firehouses or
outside of the roll call roomand stuff but is the fact that
like you've got captains andabove both departments they're
basically administrators andthey're the professional level,
but everybody below that is afucking five-year-old and

(53:33):
anytime command says don't dosomething.
That is a fucking challenge andwe will find a way to do it in
the most messed up way possible.
Very creative group of peoplewhen given low resources and a
lot of free time.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
Oh my God, oh my God, yes, that is.
That is a very good way to putit, just yeah.
And the creativity for, yeah,doing stuff for your job,
finding better ways to do stufffor your job, coping with things
shenanigans yeah, findingbetter ways to do stuff for your

(54:11):
job, coping with thingsshenanigans yeah, I mean it's
definitely.
And going back to the firesideand everything.
I got guys at my station thatif I have a question about cars
I know who to call, no matterwhat the year of the car or the
type Firearms.
My driver is unbelievable.

(54:32):
I mean, he's like a walking,just you know, supercomputer.
You want something to knowabout building a house or
dealing with a house?

Speaker 2 (54:39):
Why do you need a specialist on firearms?
Fire hoses and super soakersare the ones that shoot water,
just saying.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Yeah, well, you know what I like to do, the pew pew
thing off duty.
Okay, what you're doing, yourown free time is on your dime,
sir, that's right, um, but youknow, like for building houses,
um, you know, I just is, thefire service is an unbelievable
amount of wealth walking around.
You know of knowledge, walkingknowledge, walking around, and

(55:07):
you know, and law enforcement istoo.
I mean, you got guys that'll,you know, on that side, that
know all that.
You know all that stuff too.
So it's, yeah, it's one ofthose careers and one of those
jobs and everything, no matterwhich side you're on, that
there's a, a lot of highlyintelligent people now, you know

(55:28):
, you know not all of them are,you know, book smart, but
they're life smart hey, you knowwhat?

Speaker 2 (55:34):
leave me out of this.
All right.
When I joined, when I joinedmilitary and when I got into law
enforcement, yeah, but Ilearned after the fact.
Yeah, but again I.
I think the other, though, isyou have to be careful of
letting the people that you workwith learn too much about you,
because, um, when I was, when Iwas on the department out there

(55:58):
and most of my life now it'sgotten a little, a little out of
hand, but I was always prettyskinny, which usually led to me
getting thrown into attics tosearch for drugs and people.
So that was always the downfallof everybody knowing that I was
scrawny, because I would getcalled to scenes just to get
thrown into an attic.
So, um, I don't know if it wasa joke or if it was really like,

(56:20):
let's just see if we can getweaver stuck in the troll den
that's above the house, um, butI uh, I mean, we've been talking
about this for an hour and I'mhoping it's some good
information.
If there was anything that youcould say to somebody that's
getting into this job orinterested in that side, what
would you say to them?

Speaker 3 (56:43):
There's a lot of things that get tossed um, that
I truly believe in, and some ofit, you know, comes from the
honor guard and stuff too.
Number one is you got to takecare of yourself, because if you
don't take care of yourselfmentally, physically, whatever

(57:04):
at some point when you reallyneed to, you're not going to do
the you know that person you'rethere to help a damn bit of good
and you may even make thesituation worse, um, because you
know now, okay, you're fallingapart or something happens
because you weren't payingattention.
Now I got two, two situationsto deal with instead of what we

(57:26):
were initially here for Topiggyback onto that.
It's like, you know, with theHonor Guard and stuff like that,
we would, you know, tell a lotof people.
You know it's family.
First, you know, if you gotthese, especially if you got
these guys who you know they'reyounger and they have young kids

(57:48):
and stuff, they're like somestill come to work when their
kids are like extremely ill orwhatever, it's like no, dude,
that is your rock to help youtake care of you.
So it's that's that's my twobiggest things is you got to
take care of yourself and yougot to take care of your family.

(58:10):
We're still going to be there.
I mean just because you stayhome to take care of your family
, or you stay home because youknow what that day your brain is
just fried because you had ashit call the shift before and
it's still beating you up.
The department's still going tobe there.
You know, we got 230 otherfreaking people there.

(58:33):
We ain't going anywhere.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
What would you say to non-civil service people that
are listening to this?
That might be important forthem to know.
I don't know.
You're more than just acalendar.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Well, yeah, trust me, I may be down 100 pounds, but
you still don't want to see thisin a calendar.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
I have.
It's called Waluigi.

Speaker 3 (59:04):
Yeah, mustache jokes, I get it, you're just joking
Mustache joke.
I get it, you just jokedMustache joke.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Yeah, that's what it was.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
I swear to God.
There's something I really wantto say, but we're on this
podcast so I don't want to.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
There'll be an afterwards, go that far 45 years
of traumatizing each other.
We can wait another few minutes.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Right has something to do with my dad and your mom?
Um, my dad and your mom, um, no, it's.
I guess it would depend on theconversation, because I mean,
there's a lot of differentconversations to be had.
You know that can be had, um,you know, because we'll have a
lot of civilians had.
You know that can be had, um,you know, cause we'll have a lot
of civilians ask well, you know, the one I hate is when they

(59:53):
say what's the worst thingyou've ever seen?
Yeah, that that is a topic thatdoes not get broached with
somebody who does not do the job, and half the time, even if
it's somebody from anotherdepartment, I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
That's, that's like the people, because I have
students.
I mean, I teach criminaljustice, so I'll have students,
stuff like well, have you evershot anybody?
That's not a fucking icebreaker, like you know.
Just you know, you know what.
I don't know what icebreakersare anymore.
I'm learning some verytroubling things hearing my

(01:00:26):
students and people talk aboutthe dating world anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
So I'm glad I've been married for as long as I have,
because I would fail.
Yeah, I think a good one is hey, does this?
You know napkin smell likechloroform, but you know it.
I guess it'd be because youknow it would have to be.
You know, that's not somethingjust like a general thing that's
easy to answer, cause again ithas to be like top of
conversation.
People say, yeah, well, youknow, how do you?

(01:00:52):
You know, like, what kind ofcalls you run or what you know,
how do you deal with this or howdo you deal with that, as far
as kind of like we have but atthe same time been like well,
get on and say, hey, well, doyou think it's right that you
brought the fire truck to thegrocery store?
It's like you know we're herefor 25 hours.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
we got to eat and if a call happens, do you want me
to drive my Honda Civic backacross town to get to the fire
truck, to get to your house, ordo you want me to come here in
it?
Like I'm just saying.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Right, exactly, but, um, but when dealing with
civilians, the best thing is, Imean always to.
You know, to borrow a phrasefrom you know, and paraphrase
Dalton Patrick Swayze be niceuntil it's time to not be nice,

(01:01:45):
be respectful and everything.
And you know, always, you know,be nice until it's time to not
be nice, be respectful andeverything.
And you know, even sometimes,when they're having an attitude
or whatever about how and I lovethe whole, hey, I pay your
salary people, they're great,but it's, you know, just trying

(01:02:08):
to explain things to them in a,you know, calm and, you know,
educational manner.
That's not condescending withthings, um, which, again,
somehow, over the last few years, I've been able to figure out
how to do Somehow.
Over the last few years, I'vebeen able to figure out how to

(01:02:29):
do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
I think the biggest thing that I would say to them
and this is just from you know,of course, again teaching
criminal justice stuff I look atthe stats, I look at the data
is open your fucking eyes,because a lot of firefighters,
emts and police are killed justtrying to work accidents on the
side of the road or on car stopson the side of the road and

(01:02:52):
have some fucking respect forthe people that are trying to
help.
I'm not saying especially onthe law enforcement side, that's
a whole different conversationbut when you're talking car
accidents or medical situations,your firefighters, your EMTs
and the cops that are blockingtraffic and everything are
trying to save people's lives.
Like it may be an inconveniencefor you that you're going to be

(01:03:15):
late to work, but I'm sure ashell it's an inconvenience for
the person that just got T-bonedand is got a punctured lung and
possibly dying in their car.
Have some compassion for themtoo.
That's probably one thing I'dsay.
Dying in their car.
Have some compassion for themtoo.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
That's probably one thing.
I'd say, yeah, and I have had to, you know, building on that,
have had to tell people, hey,you know that have complained
about certain things like, hey,well, this is going on, and you
know I was late to work becauseof this, and I'd look at him and
say, okay, so let me ask youthis what if that was your child
in the car they were taking outand rushing to the hospital?
And you heard somebody sayingexactly what you're saying to me

(01:03:49):
right now, and I've had thoseconversations and the look they
get on their face is like, ohcrap, they don't think about
that aspect of it.
You've got people out there andyou heard it, it here too and
everything that think, okay,well, you know, a department

(01:04:11):
that size is not necessary, youdon't need that many people,
blah, blah.
And you kind of find you knowthose are the people that don't
think it's necessary becausethey've never had to call.
But once they have to call,holy shit, the world's coming to
an end.
Well, no, your son just brokehis wrist, but you know.
So it's a lot of thoseconversations and sometimes you

(01:04:38):
have to remind them that youknow if this was your family or
you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
Yeah, and I think the other is to remind, remind and
this is just me again, my highhorse to a point, but that we're
people in these fields arefucking human too, you know, and
broughting them and being angryat them, and you know we always
joked in law enforcement, likeyou know, people throw shit and
pull their guns when we show upand when firefighters show up,

(01:05:07):
they get a ticker tape parade.
Like you guys are like theheroes and we're the assholes.
But I think in the end it's allone system that's trying to
work to the betterment of otherpeople and the stuff that we've
seen.
You know one person seeing itis bad enough, but when you see

(01:05:28):
it every day and it is your lifeis seeing the horrible things
you know you have a littlecompassion for what those people
are going through andespecially because what we're
willing to tell you is only abillionth of what we're dealing
with, and if somebody in thisfield is willing to open up to

(01:05:48):
you, don't blow it off.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
Oh, totally agreed, and you know.
Another thing too is, you knowyou'll get those that they'll
ask you and, like you weresaying, you know, what we're
willing to tell you or what weare telling you is just a small
fraction.
It also especially like on ourside, you know, because we're
not, you know and I'm using airquotes here for those that can't

(01:06:15):
see me, lucky people Um, thisis an audio podcast.
Right, yeah, I have a face forradio, um so um, but yeah, we're
not law enforcement on the fireside.
But there's still things youknow from calls that we cannot

(01:06:35):
talk about for one reason oranother.
A lot of it is for legalityreasons, because, again, you
interact and stuff.
And you know there's peoplethink, oh, you know, they're
firefighters, blah, blah,whatever.
Act and stuff.
And you know there's peoplethink, oh, you know, they're
firefighters, blah, blah, blah,whatever.
You know a lot of our stuffcan't, you know, ends up being
crime scenes at some point.
You know, like, even you know,in unattended.
You know, if somebody codes andthere's nobody there to see it

(01:06:57):
and it's unattended, it's acrime scene until they know for
certain.
Okay, this was just totallynatural, you know.
Know, yeah, he's 837 years old.
His heart just stopped versus.
Okay, did somebody break intothe house and help?

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
his heart stop.
So um, then that's why peopleshow up and trample the whole
thing exactly um, but it's so,it's trying to.

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
It amazes civilians how much, and even some of the
younger guys that come on, theylearn pretty quickly how much
the two are actually intertwined.
Yeah, absolutely, and stuff.
So, you know, trying and againwith the public, trying to
explain that part of it with thepublic, and he tried to explain

(01:07:47):
that part of it and you knowit's just or they'll be like,
well, hey, you know it was.
You know, is Bob okay?
What happened?
Well, I can tell you, yeah,bob's okay, just got some issues
we're dealing with.
Well, what happened?
Yeah, this is a medical call ona patient.
There's something called hippo,hippo hypocrisy law.

(01:08:07):
No, hippo laws.
Thank you, um, that you know.
I can't, you know, sit thereand tell you.
All I can tell you is, yeah,yeah, they're.
You know they're gonna be allright and you know we're doing
our job and the flip side ofthat is from law enforcement
especially.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
I'm gonna I'm gonna call you know my former people
out as much as I will say, forthe is also being aware, after
calls, what you say when you gofor dinner or something, because
I know of an incident thathappened where I worked.
I wasn't there but I know thatthere was an incident after an
accident where some officerswere not the most properly

(01:08:44):
talking about an accident thathappened and the people in the
booth behind them were relatedto the victims and didn't know
anything had happened.
So that kind of goes back tothat, even with gallows humor,
like right place, right time outin public is not the right
place back with your family andyour hidden and when I say

(01:09:04):
family I mean like the fire andEMS, uh, and law enforcement
family, because you know that'swho you can share it with.
Sometimes you can't even takethat stuff home to your own
family and they try to figureout why you, you know you have
nights where you're staring offand you're kind of out of it and
you're I don't want to tell youbecause I don't want I chose to
be exposed to this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
I don't want to expose you to that but yeah, you
know what you were just sayingthere.
And you know you know, becauseobviously we're related, but
supposedly, yeah, right, um,that was, you know, I mean it
meant english a mentality that Ihad for a long time and

(01:09:47):
everything.
And you know your, yoursister-in-law, would be like hey
, you know, I want you to talkto me about these things and all
that.
And I didn't because, like youjust said, we have to see it.
You know, when you're tellingsomebody a story and she'll
argue this point of that, shecan control this.
But when you tell somebody astory, the human brain just
naturally starts forming apicture and that's just the way
it is.

(01:10:07):
And I don't, I didn't want thathappening.
Um, anything but getting in thiskind of goes along with the
whole self care and you know,family and all that kind of
stuff too, you know.
You know.
You know what seven, eightyears ago, my marriage damn near
tanked.
You know, seven, eight yearsago my marriage damn near tanked

(01:10:27):
and a lot of it was because ofthe stuff that I kept it, the
stuff that I didn't share, youknow, and all that.
And you know it took my severehead injury and being gone for,
you know, four months completelyfor us to realize, hey, 80% of
our problems were your fuckingjob and stuff.
So I've, you know, I haveopened up to her more again

(01:10:52):
within reason, because you knowyou can't, and there's still
stuff that I just details, stuffthat she doesn't need to know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
But yeah, that's a thing that you definitely,
definitely have to watch andkeep it away from the kids as,
like I know, I've traumatizedNancy like she's got paranoia
about everything.
But I mean I've seen horriblestuff so I mean I'm
overprotective.
But then you have to kind of goback and like deprogram that

(01:11:20):
fear, but I see it as a healthyfear.
Like you know, I've seen rapevictims, I've seen sexual
assault victims, I've seenmurder victims, drug overdoses,
the worst you can see and Itransferred some of that, not
meaning to but at the same timejust the whole.

(01:11:42):
Also, the point of this podcastwhen Heather Rachel, I started
it was to be informative aboutwhat's out there, but also kind
of what you've shown on yourside and we didn't talk about it
really beforehand.
But also kind of how I am andreally what I got into this for
is being victim and patientfocused.

(01:12:02):
Like the podcast is notglorifying the criminals or the
murderers or the stuff.
I don't want to glorify them.
I want to bring memory back tothe victims, just like showing
what we have done in our careersto help individuals and that
it's really about them andthey're what drives us.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
Yes, exactly, and that's one thing where you know
I've had some younger guys like,if you know, if we run a code
and we don't save them andeverything, and you know I will,
I'll spend a few minutes withthe family, if they're there,

(01:12:45):
before we leave, because youknow this is, you know the
compassion is necessary.
Um, you know when you can, andthat's one thing where my 17
years with the honor guard andeverything too, and it's one
thing when I was, you know, wasteaching, you know the clinic

(01:13:06):
that I used to teach with.
You know our our thing was, youknow, family, honor, respect
and compassion.
And we've actually had someguys tell us that all you know,
when you're doing thatfirefighter or that, that
officer's funeral, this is allabout that.
You know that that fallenperson no, it's not, no, that

(01:13:27):
person's gone, it's it, part ofit is, and I'm not trying to.
So, if anybody is listening,don't think that.
You know, I'm saying that theydon't, they don't fucking matter
because they do.
The family matters more.
Yes, because the families arethe one that are sitting there,
that are watching you take careof their loved one, that are
watching you do all this thatyou are interacting with,

(01:13:49):
showing the compassion to.
They're the ones that are goingto remember all this, and it's
that translates over to doingour job too.
Because if you're going in andyou know say, you know, grandpa
just died and they just watchedyou, you know, for 25 minutes
trying to save him and youcouldn't, then you turn around
and you're, you know they wantto.

(01:14:10):
You know, a lot of times theywill say thank you for trying,
but if you just blow them off oryou act like a dick, they're
going to remember that.
And that just made the situationeven worse.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
And I think to to bring up the great and national
treasure of Nicholas cage, likein the movie um, bring out the
dead, like, unfortunately,especially EMS and all you know,
law enforcement not as much,but to a point, with EMS and
fire, like you're going to havecycles where you just lose
people, it's going to happen.
Like you, you're, you're goingto have cycles where you just

(01:14:46):
lose people, it's going tohappen.
Like you, you're, you're havinga battle with death every day.
Sometimes they win, sometimesyou win.
It's a chess game that's justgoes on for until you retire and
then they finally come for you.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
But it's the it's always trying to focus on the
wins, like when you do savesomebody, when you do bring
somebody, when you do savesomebody, when you do bring
somebody, when you bringsomebody to safety, or for me,
when I brought somebody tojustice, like you, can't focus

(01:15:18):
always on the negative.
No, and that's exactly right.
I mean it's unfortunately inthis line.
You know, when it comes tostuff like that, I mean the
negative outcomes do, when itcomes to human life, still, you
know, outweigh the positiveoutcomes.
Um, you know, it's things havegotten better.

(01:15:38):
We can still, you know, savemore.
You know we save more peoplenow than we were 10, 20 years
ago, just because of differenttechniques and stuff now than we
were 10, 20 years ago, justbecause of different techniques
and stuff.
But you know, it is like yousaid a little bit ago and
everything you know peopleforget that we're human and
there's only so much we can do.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Technology is getting better, but I mean in the end
you know two pickup trucksslamming to each other going 80
miles an hour.
The opposite way, if theycollide into each other at 160
miles an hour, not a lot you canreally do about that yeah, no,
yeah, no, not not at all.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
I mean it's.
You know, yeah, there's only somuch that can be done.
I mean how we had a fire.
Well, the county had a fire andthey needed our, our help and
we got there.
We pulled five people out ofthe basement.
You know the dad didn't survive, um, and stuff, and you know we

(01:16:35):
have to look at the fact that,yeah, that sucked, but you know,
the older woman and the threekids did so.
I mean it's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
You're four on the good there, you know, and it's
all about the work and this gotlike really down really fast, I
mean.
I guess I mean kind of pointwhen you do stuff like this,
like it's kind of cathartic in away, but it's also good for you
know.
Again, like going back to whatwe are like.
This podcast itself is reallykind of a true crime criminal

(01:17:13):
justice but I think rarely dopeople get to hear this side of
it and kind of this moredetailed about the people that
are responding to those.
You don't really hear aboutthat part and a lot of the
podcasts that do this stuff.
So I think it was reallyinteresting and I've had a blast

(01:17:33):
doing this so far to be able to, with my brother, like have
make this episode that is likegoing to end up being about an
hour and 20 minutes, um, but Ithink it's good information.
Some people will be like thiswas fucking lame and I'm not
listening the whole thing, andother people are like this is
fucking amazing.
You never know where you'regonna get out of it.
But to me it's my podcast, I'mgonna do what I want and I

(01:17:55):
wanted to do this episode.
So, um, before we kind of likewrap it up.
First I want to say that whenthis comes out will be nancy's
19th birthday, so she doesn'tknow, I'm putting that in here.
But happy birthday to Nancy,Nice.
But I want to and I think maybelater down the road we should

(01:18:16):
do this again a little bit morescripted instead of like this
flow of consciousness, just kindof getting some of the stuff
out we'd never talked about.
But I do want to thank you somuch, man, for taking the time
to like talk to me and kind ofbe a little bit more vulnerable
and open about this.
I think it means a lot tomyself and hopefully, people to
get a chance to listen to it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:37):
Oh, absolutely, and I'm I'm actually I'm glad and
honored that you, you'll want todo this and include me in
everything.
And I'm, you know, for my veryfirst podcast and stuff and
everything.
Um, podcast, I said podcast, um, yeah, I I'd definitely be
willing to do it again, and so,and and everything.

(01:18:57):
So, yeah, I I appreciate it.
And yes, right, nancy isgetting ready to turn 19.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
So, getting ready to turn 19, so she gets to edit
this.
So I'm I'm very proud of thatand I'm proud of what she's done
to help, uh, help this littlepodcast uh, become a little less
little.
That was a lot of little, butso, um, again, mike, thanks a
lot.
Um, thank everybody thatlistened.
If anybody wants to give anyfeedback or try to figure out
how we were actually related, Iam the handsome one and this has

(01:19:31):
been Deviant Criminology.
Yeah, and I'm the one with thehair Touche.
I want to thank you all so muchfor listening to our little
podcast.
This is created with love andpassion for criminal justice and
true crime.
So if you're enjoying thepodcast, please follow us, like
or rate us on whatever systemyou're listening to us on,

(01:19:53):
subscribe to our podcast anddownload episodes.
Downloads are important for ourgrowth, as is growing our
listeners.
So if you wouldn't mind, takethe time to ask your friends,
family, co-workers, tell themabout us through word of mouth,
social media.
I don't care if you even screamat strangers on the streets, to

(01:20:13):
help us kind of get out therewho we are.
If you're interested in learningmore, you could visit our
website atwwwdeviantcriminologycom.
There you'll find some stuffabout our backgrounds,
references, show notes for eachepisode.
You can also follow us on ourFacebook page at Deviant
Criminology.
We also have an Instagram page,which is Deviant underscore

(01:20:37):
Criminology.
Or find me at Dr Richard Weaveron Instagram.
And as we grow, we hope todevelop a community that will
grow with us.
So again, thank you for takingthe time to listen and have a
good week.