January 27, 2025 • 55 mins
Missouri State Penitentiary, once a notorious symbol of America’s correctional system, offers an unsettling reflection on incarceration's evolution over 170 years. The episode delves into MSP’s dark history, its notorious inmates, failed reform efforts, and the prison’s eventual closure in 2004, encapsulating a legacy that continues to influence talks on prison reform today.
• Exploration of the early years and original design principles
• Discussion of incarceration experiences and daily life
• Examination of labor practices and the effects of overcrowding
• Review of the significant riots and systemic failures
• Overview of educational and rehabilitation programs
• Analysis of racial tensions and their impact on inmate treatment
• Insight into the prison's closure and legacy
www.deviantcriminology.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So I'm Richard, I'm Heather, and this is Deviant
Criminology.
So this week we're kind ofgoing back to something we've
looked at doing and oneepisode's already been done of
kind of talking about thehistory of certain
penitentiaries and institutions,and some of these, like Eastern
State Penitentiary and the onewe're going to talk about today,
missouri State Penitentiarythey're now historical sites
(01:03):
that you can go tour and stuff,and Heather and I are going to
present this case today.
But it was brought to us by ourwonderful producer, nancy, who
put this together.
So, though we know some of thehistory and background of
prisons and penitentiaries, thisis an episode that's special to
her.
So again we're talking about theMissouri State Penitentiary,
(01:24):
which is located in JeffersonCity, missouri.
It stands as the oldest andmost infamous prison in the
United States.
So, operating for nearly 170years from 1836 to 2004,
missouri State Penitentiarywitnessed the evolution of the
American prison system, theirperiods of intense overcrowding,
brutal treatment of prisoners,violent uprisings and a
(01:47):
reputation for laborexploitation.
That kind of seems like to be atheme of, especially in the
early years of our reform systemis the use of hard labor.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah Well, labor in general.
Like I agree with you on thehard labor, but even like I
don't know about you, but when Iwas a kid they used to say, oh,
they make the license platesthere.
Like I agree with you on thehard labor, but even like I
don't know about you, but when Iwas a kid they used to say, oh,
they make the license platesthere.
Like just labor in general.
And it makes me wondersometimes are people making
money off of this, especiallywith all the privatization, like
what aspects are there, youknow complications, conflict of
(02:18):
interest, things like that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I think there are.
Like I mean, I know they'remaking some money off of it.
Like I remember when I was inthe military, certain like
toiletries and stuff we had weremade in prisons, so like
private companies were profitingoff of their work.
So and this seems to be kind ofa thing across the reformation
(02:49):
of all prisons in the UnitedStates at some point prior to
1930s when that reform?
really started to get away fromthat, all because of the
Industrial Revolution.
I was informed.
I had to bring the mic closerto me, so I will now continue
with my rendition about theMissouri State Prison.
Thanks, nancy.
(03:10):
The history of the MissouriState Prison also reflects
efforts sometimes they weresuccessful, sometimes they were
futile to provide rehabilitationprograms, vocational trainings
and educational opportunities toinmates.
We're going to explore thevarious stages of the prison's
operations, the conditionswithin the walls.
We're going to talk about thetypes of opportunities it offers
(03:31):
to inmates and then the overallimpact of the facility on the
American history and the prisonsystem.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
So first we'll talk about the early years in the
construction.
So we're talking about 1836 toabout the 1840s.
So when we're talking about theorigins and design, the story
of the Missouri StatePenitentiary began in 1820 when
Missouri became a state.
However, it wasn't until 1836that the state authorized the
(04:00):
construction of a penitentiaryto house the increasing number
of criminals, located on thebanks of the Missouri River in
Jefferson City.
The site was chosen for itsproximity to the state capital
and ease of transportation byriver.
The original design of theprison was based on the
Pennsylvania system, whichemphasized solitary confinement,
which we talked about before.
(04:21):
Not such a great thing forindividuals or their state of
mind.
So, talking about solitary andconfinement, and they use that
as a means of punishment andrehabilitation.
Prisoners were housed inindividual cells, each designed
for isolation, with the beliefthat solitary confinement would
encourage reflection, penanceand eventual reform.
(04:41):
And we talked about that again,that whole solitary confinement
idea that somehow would bringyou closer to God and you'd have
those revelations of how youwant to be a good person.
And then we figured out nope,nope, it really just makes you
crazy.
The first building, a stonestructure, was completed by 1837
, housing up to 100 inmates.
(05:02):
The early vision of the prisonhad separate cells, but
overcrowding quickly became anissue as the prison population
grew.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And we saw that in eastern states too.
The idea was solitaryconfinement, but between
corruption, which was alreadybeing sought out right in the
beginning, and then also justthe way that these were being
used as institutions to houseinmates who were being convicted
of all types of crimes which itwasn't really established for.
So the initial design of theMissouri State Prison reflected
(05:31):
the 19th century emphasis onimposing architecture as a means
of deterrence.
So if you look at the outsideof the Missouri State Prison
it's very imposing, it's verymedieval looking almost, and
just kind kind of like I don'twant to be behind whatever is on
the other side of those walls.
So it was built primarily,primarily, of stone.
(05:52):
The facilities constructionfeatured a formidable exterior,
characterized by its high wallsand narrow windows, so that old
english fort look, designed toboth confined and isolate.
The architectural blueprint wasintended to convey a sense of
authority and order over thepeople on the inside and to
(06:13):
strike fear in the individualson the outside.
So throughout its operationalyears the Missouri State
Printing Treasury underwentseveral renovations and
expansions.
Same thing we see in othersprison where it started as one
building, but the rapid growthand need of our, I dare say,
industrial prison complex.
It's just the rapid growth andthe realization that you
(06:36):
couldn't do all these individualcells.
You had to start doing massincarcerations, almost so.
Notable refurbishment periodsincluded the late 19th century
and then some in the early andmid-20th century, each marked by
the integration of moreadvanced security technologies
and the construction ofadditional cell blocks.
(06:56):
So you're seeing things like thegates, these big gates that
were being put in the guardtowers that would start being
seen with the shooters orofficers with rifles in them.
It was definitely about theleast amount of prison guards
for the maximum amount ofinmates, and we see that again.
(07:19):
It comes up today where there'sjust not enough guards, but the
state can only afford to do somuch with what it has.
The architectural style of theprison is emblematic of the
penal design philosophiesprevalent in the United States
during its time of construction,characterized by its imposing
(07:43):
facades.
But what was not only common inprisons but it was also in
academics and religiousbuildings.
So you see this on collegecampuses from back around this
time period of this almostEnglish England inspired
architecture.
This architectural approach wassignificant in shaping public
perceptions and expectations forincarceration and it further
(08:07):
embedded the institution withinthe society and historical
fabric of Missouri.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
So let's talk about the first inmates.
The first inmates at MSParrived in 1837, and it was a
modest group that quickly grewas the state continued to send
convicts to the prison.
Early prisoners were oftenincarcerated for offenses like
theft and violent crimes.
The original solitaryconfinement system became
impractical as the populationswelled and by the 1840s the
(08:36):
prison moved towards morecommunal living arrangements.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Now we'll kind of talk about the daily schedule
that inmates would go through.
So daily life in MSP wasmeticulously structured.
There was a very set routine towhat inmates had to do.
This was done to.
These structures were there tohelp in store and maintain order
, to make discipline apparent tothe inmates and to provide
(09:04):
security.
Inmates adhered to a regimentestablished that began early in
the morning and concluded in theevening.
So their schedules would startvery early in the morning and
then would conclude in theevening, facilitating the
operational needs of theinstitution, such as cooks,
laundry facilities, things ofthat nature, and then
(09:25):
rehabilitation of its population.
When that was moved into thedaily lives at MSP, they
typically started their day atdawn, with inmates being
awakened for roll call, andbreakfast Meals were served in
shifts with an emphasis onefficiency and minimal
interaction between prisoners toprevent disturbances.
So again, this kind of goes tothat, trying to isolate
(09:48):
individuals from each other asmuch as possible.
Following breakfast, inmateswere assigned to work details or
educational programs.
So they either went to one ofthe workshops that were provided
or they're allowed to attendeducational programming which
history would show us involvedreligious studies or basic high
school classes and as theydeveloped into the middle and
(10:12):
late 20th century would have hadprobably some GED and college
classes as well.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Which we still try to do now.
We try to offer educationalopportunities at facilities.
I don't know how muchpractically they help, but I
mean we still try to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And part of that's going from that again punitive
punishment of the originalconcept of prisons being a way
to bring people closer to Godand that crime was a moral
failure.
And more now we saw afterReformation in the prison
systems, of it being more of alike how do we make you not
commit crimes again?
Because we know these are morepsychological, economical and
socially based.
(10:51):
Not you've stopped believing inGod or you've turned from God.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
So it's definitely the educational piece comes into
that If an educated society andan educated person brings about
a more productive member ofsociety, as long as you can
overcome the stigmas, though,and get a job, which is I mean,
that's another complication thateven if you get the education,
if you don't get the opportunityto apply it, that doesn't help
you reintegrate.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Oh, exactly, and I think they're trying to even
work that now with theimplementation of like realizing
there's a shortage of skilledlabor workers and imposing not
imposing but implementing likewelding classes and plumbing
classes and teaching trades toinmates, where they really do
have an opportunity to get outand maybe have a job that pays a
decent amount compared to howit used to be of just here's a
(11:40):
ged or a high school diploma I'dgo out and find something and
industries that already aren'twilling to take inmates.
Now you're sending skilledlabor workers out into a
workforce that needs people.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
So the work assignments varied, including
tasks within the prisonindustries, including things
like maintenance of the facilityor outdoor labor in fields or
gardens.
These labor assignments wereintegral to the institution's
self-sustaining model, aiming toinstill a work ethic and
facilitate skill acquisitionamong the inmates, which was you
(12:14):
know again today would besomething like the trades.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And educational and religious service were also
pivotal components of dailyroutines, offering inmates
opportunities for bothintellectual and moral
development.
Participation in classes,literacy programs or religious
gatherings was often encouraged,serving both rehabilitative and
disciplinary functions.
So that's one of the thingsthat we would see now like for
(12:38):
early release and stuff isgetting a better education,
finding or connecting with faithor faith-based organizations.
So across the Missouri StatePenitentiary's time they were
kind of ahead of their time incertain areas of really pushing
these things.
The afternoon mirrored themorning, with a continuation of
work, assignments andeducational or spiritual
(12:59):
activities and are spread withmeals and mandatory recreational
periods and are spread withmeals and mandatory recreational
periods.
Recreation was tightlycontrolled, with limited access
to outdoor spaces and monitoredinteractions intended to reduce
tensions and promote physicalwell-being, and that was a thing
that would be worried about.
I mean, even today you worryabout everybody in prison is not
going to get along.
(13:19):
They're not friends.
You had gangs even back 20s,30s, actually back in the 1800s.
There's a lot of documentationof gangs and organized groups,
so you would want to keep themseparated.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So when it came to the evenings, that was typically
reserved for personal time,during which inmates could
engage in limited socialactivities or hobbies or
personal reflection within theconfines of their own cells.
Lights Out signaled the end ofthe day, with strict enforcement
ensuring adherence to theschedule.
The structure routine wasdesignated not only to reduce
(13:54):
idle time, which could lead tounrest, but also to promote a
sense of normalcy and discipline, preparing inmates for the
eventual reintegration intosociety, which, of course, has
been the goal for a lot of theseprograms.
We try to attain it, but itdoesn't always work.
But understanding this dailyrhythm provides insight into the
penal philosophy of the timeand reflects broader trends in
(14:18):
prison management andrehabilitation efforts.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And it's kind of almost the same thing you see in
the military.
If you have that very scheduledroutine, you're always keeping
people busy, there's less timeto mess up, less time to have
those bad interactions.
So it for the most parthopefully worked.
But obviously we've seen insome of the stuff we've already
talked about in the past andwe're going to talk about here
(14:42):
it doesn't always work that wayand sometimes even just the
changing of wardens can have,you know, you go from a place
that's very positive andsocially, promotes interactions
and positive to somebody thatcomes in and wants to do more of
that punishment and strongenforcement.
It can completely change afacility.
(15:03):
So expansion in prison laborbetween 1850s and 1900s by the
1850s in Missouri StatePenitentiary was overcrowded.
Again, we've seen this in a lotof facilities we've talked
about, or just that we knowabout so far, promoting the
construction of additional cellblocks and a rethink of the
prison's layout.
And so by the time the CivilWar erupted, msp housed over 600
(15:26):
inmates.
As more convicts were sent tothe facility and with prison
overcrowding, there was violenceand tension between the guards
and the inmates.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So, when it comes to prison labor we touched on this
just a moment ago we have thebirth of industrialized labor,
and as the prison's populationexpanded, so did the demand for
prison labor.
The late 19th century saw theintroduction of the convict
leasing program, a practicewhich prisoners released to
private companies to reformlabor for companies, and that
(15:58):
included things like railroadconstruction, mining and
agriculture.
The system allowed the state tooffset the cost of maintaining
the prison while exposinginmates to extremely dangerous
and exploitative work conditions.
Many prisoners, especiallythose sent to work in coal mines
which we've been talking aboutcoal mines a lot today and
(16:21):
railroads suffered injuries,disease and even death.
At the prison itself, inmateswere put to work producing goods
for both the state and privateindustry, including furniture,
clothing, bricks and othermaterials.
This forced labor often leftinmates working long hours with
little to no compensation.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I mean mean and this is when we go back and look at
the prison system specifically,and it's a fear we talk about
today even but this was forcedlabor and slavery.
It was you committed a crime.
Well, now you're indentured tothe state and we can do whatever
we want with you.
And Missouri is probably one ofmany states and I couldn't tell
(17:04):
you how many right now becauseI didn't do that research, but I
will and bring it back atanother time of chain gangs and
things like that, where theywere sent out and forced to work
in harsh conditions.
But because you're an inmate andyou committed a crime, it
didn't matter the crime.
You had to basically become anindentured servant until
sometimes you paid off your debt, which is kind of where that
(17:24):
comes from paying off your debtto society.
Sometimes you had to earn acertain amount before you'd be
set free, because of eitherrestitution that you owed or
whatever fines had been imposedon you.
So your physical labor, wheresomebody may make a dollar an
hour, you were paid a cent anhour.
You had to get all thattogether.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
So, as a which is kind of interesting when you
think about it, because we hadthe debtors' prisons in Europe
and we came here and we said,okay, we're not going to have
debtors' prisons anymore.
But now instead, you're goingto have to pay court costs and
in order to pay those courtcosts and fines and fees, you
need to pay it with money.
And oh, you don't have anymoney, so I guess you're going
to have to work that off.
So we're really back to thedebtors' prisons.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Well, and even in the United States in the beginning
we had debtors' prisons, butthose were jails.
It wasn't as long-term.
But then we started having tointermix as we took a different
approach on criminal justice.
We had to take people andactually punish them for their
(18:29):
crimes outside of the physicalbeatings and executions that
were being done.
So the debtors were being putin with actual violent criminals
.
And then we were like, oh, wehave to start a jail system
which is as we talked about,with Eastern State and Missouri
State Prison Penitentiary andMissouri State Penitentiary.
These were facilities made toseparate back out those debtors
which, again, you would know alot more about, like the
(18:50):
misdemeanor versus felonies andwhy jails only house them for so
amount of time.
But in the end theseenvironments that they had, the
overcrowding and everything didlead to these problems of unrest
, and Missouri StatePenitentiary was not immune from
this.
The cramped, oppressiveconditions at the facility led
(19:12):
to frequent escapes and violentconfrontation between inmates
and guards.
The harsh treatment andovercrowding resulted in
numerous attempts to break freefree.
There was a hope high profileescape of George machine gun
Kelly and notorious gangster ofthe 1930s, which seems to kind
of be like our era right now.
We kind of got to get out ofthis 1930s thing, yeah, and
(19:34):
there was a lot of really notgreat but a lot of like famous
criminals from there, andMachine Gun Kelly is definitely
one of those names that you justhear and you've heard it before
.
But inmates would regularlyfight not only with each other
or stage violent riots, but theywould also fight with guards.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So then that gets us up to the early 20th century and
our struggle for reformattempts.
So we're talking about like1900 to the 1950s, and during
that time there were escalatingproblems.
Specifically, by the early 20thcentury, msp was widely
regarded as one of the mostovercrowded and violent prisons
in the country.
(20:13):
Conditions inside were abysmaland prisoners faced frequent
abuse, unsanitary livingconditions, inadequate food and
lack of access to medical care.
The prison was also largelyunprepared to handle the growing
number of inmates, leading toincreasingly dangerous and
unstable conditions.
The 1917 prison riot was awatershed moment in the prison's
(20:37):
history.
The prison riot was a watershedmoment in the prison's history.
Inmates angry over theirtreatment seized control over
the facility and for severaldays the prison was effectively
in a state of anarchy.
The National Guard was calledin to restore order and several
prisoners were killed in theviolence.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
This riot marked a significant escalation in
tensions between inmates andprison authorities and
highlighted the systemicfailures of the facility.
Again, this is something we sawwith Eastern State Penitentiary
as well is kind of these riotsituations, these very violent
encounters between the two, andeven though there was a lot of
kind of obvious things that wereleading up to this, there was
(21:22):
just so much mismanagement andbad handling and abuses of power
and corruption that were beingseen, especially that 1900 to
1950s time period that not onlywas Missouri State of Inventory
not immune from, but it wasalmost kind of like a hallmark
of how bad these situationscould be.
So there were several reformefforts that were sought to
(21:46):
address the appalling conditionsat the facility.
While the broader trend in theUS corrections leaned towards
punitive measures, there werebrief attempts to offer
educational opportunities andvocational training to inmates
at Missouri State Penitentiary.
However, these efforts wereoften short-lived, underfunded
and unable to effectivelyovercome the institution's
(22:07):
overcrowding and dangerousenvironment.
And that's just kind of one ofthose bullshit measures that
they've tried in prisons beforewhere it's like oh, here's this
new program, it'll work great.
We saw it in a lot ofsituations where either local,
state or federal organizationswill offer here's a small amount
of money.
You're going to start thisprogram.
Well, six months later, youknow what?
(22:28):
It's not effective.
We're going to pull the funding, not giving it time, not giving
the staffing that's needed.
But they could go to thenewspapers or the media at the
time be like, oh, look whatwe're doing.
We're starting this educationalprogram.
Six months later, fucking cutthe funding, you know, and we're
starting to get into as well.
When you look at the conditionsinside this facility, this is
(22:49):
for prisoners, but we also sawthe.
You could take this exact linewhen it's talking about the lack
of food, the inadequate medicalcoverage coverage, the
overpopulation, and talk aboutthe mental health facilities at
the time, the nursing homefacilities at the time, the
schools for disabled children atthe time this was a wide
(23:10):
problem in the US, with extremeunderfunding for all those that
were not able-bodied,non-convicted people.
So if you were disabled, if youwere elderly, if you were a
prisoner, you all got treatedlike crap in this system and it
took some brave people to comeforward.
So we do see the reforms tryingto happen but, just like we saw
(23:35):
with the institutionalizationof mental health facilities, hey
, we to do these reforms soon asthey start.
Oh, we're just not going tofund them.
So nothing happens and theproblems just continue to
persist.
Well, we tried these things.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
No, you didn't try them, you just wrote it on paper
that you were going to try itso, just like the rest of the
country, there were racialtensions and segregation within
the prison and during thisperiod, like many US prisons,
msp implemented a system ofracial segregation.
African-american inmates wereconfined to separate units and
(24:09):
they often faced more harshtreatment by guards compared to
their white counterparts.
Racial tensions were a constantissue throughout the prison's
history, escalating during the1960s and 1970s, when riots and
violent incidents were oftensparked by issues of segregation
, poor treatment and the broadersocial unrest of the era.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And I think it's really interesting.
I could do a whole class juston this.
But you're seeing reallydefined moments of racial
tension between guards and theblack population in the 60s and
70s.
At the same time, on theoutside, you're seeing the rise
of civil rights.
So it makes you question again.
I don't have the answers rightnow and I'll admit that but was
(24:55):
there racial tension becausecivil rights were being fought
for on the outside and maybesome of the white guards were
taking it out on the blackinmates, while the black inmates
at the same time were wantingand seeking equal treatment?
That's just a little socialworky of me.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
I'm sure there was crossover, though it's not like
it's a bubble.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Exactly they're usually.
To be honest, from myexperience, I don't know about
yours, but the criminal justicesystem always seems almost a
microcosm of the bigger issuesgoing on in society.
Definitely, and I'm going toleave that there, we can do
totally other stuff on that.
But the early 20th centuryagain saw more growth,
overcrowding and reforms.
Saw more growth, overcrowdingand reforms.
(25:37):
But in the 1930s the prisonhoused over 5,000 inmates,
making it one of the largestprisons in the United States,
leading to overcrowding, whichincreased again this violence
and deterioration that we'reseeing in living conditions.
You also see kind of the riseof some really prominent
criminals.
We already talked about MachineGun Kelly's there at this time.
But you also had Pretty BoyFloyd who was serving time for
(26:00):
robbery, which kind of furtherboosted the prison's reputation
as a place that held some of thenation's most dangerous
criminals.
So it's got these problems withovercrowding, but in a way
you're getting these profiledprisoners that are coming in.
That in a weird way is bringingmedia attention.
That's not wanted by MissouriState Penitentiary.
(26:22):
That is going to in a way helpbring reforms because it's
getting in a bad light.
But with the rise of publicawareness of prison conditions,
because of this, msp beganimplementing limited reforms.
Again, they tried to put thesebasic educational programs to
help inmates improve theirliteracy.
(26:43):
They tried to bring invocational training aimed at
teaching trades like carpentrywe kind of talked about this to
bring trades like carpentry,welding and mechanics Again.
However, these are scarceresources.
It's really hard to convincepoliticians and people outside
you know that, not in mybackyard mentality Like well,
why are you going to take my taxdollars to pay for inmates and
(27:06):
criminals?
Like really they're there to bepunished?
We haven't gotten quite towhere we're going to start
talking about reforms like wesee being pushed in the late 60s
and beyond.
But again these efforts fellshort.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
So that leads to the next incident In 1954, msp
experienced one of the worstriots in US history, which
cemented its reputation as oneof the most dangerous prisons in
the country.
On September 22nd, tensionsover harsh conditions,
overcrowding and poor treatmentled inmates to riot.
They took control of parts ofthe prison, set fires and
(27:41):
attacked guards, causingextensive damage and endangering
lives.
During the chaos, prisoners setfire to multiple buildings and
clashed with law enforcement.
Four inmates were killed, 50were injured and hundreds were
involved in violentconfrontations with guards.
The Missouri National Guard wascalled in to regain control and
(28:01):
the riot was quelled only after12 hours of standoff.
The event highlighted thebrutal conditions at MSP and
triggered national attention,sparking public outrage and
calls for reform.
In the aftermath, msp underwentrepairs and made modest
(28:21):
improvements, but the systemicissues of overcrowding, violence
and poorer conditions persisted.
The riot's legacy lingered,leading Time magazine to dub MSP
the bloodiest 47 acres inAmerica.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
And this wasn't like an isolated incident.
There were other notableviolent confrontations that had
happened and notable inmates aswell that were there.
So through the 1960s and 1970sthere were more clashes that
happened and then some incidentsthat happened with inmates that
(29:01):
escaped.
So one of those famous ones isJames Earl Ray, which I think
not enough people know thisman's name.
So in 1967, james Earl Ray wasincarcerated at Missouri State
Penitentiary on charges of armedrobbery.
I do think it's interestingthat I have an original Time
magazine article about JamesEarl Ray in my office where I
(29:24):
work and it talks about hismental health issues and
psychological issues.
So it doesn't surprise me thatnot only did he have prior
histories of criminal activity,but after his escape in 1967, a
year later he would assassinateDr Martin Luther King, and Ray's
escape exposed significantsecurity flaws in MSP and
prompted discussions aboutprison security.
(29:46):
Another known person wasCharles Sonny Liston.
So Liston, who would laterbecome a heavyweight boxing
champion, served time at MSP forarmed robbery, served time at
MSP for armed robbery.
He began boxing whileincarcerated and his successful
story later highlighted thepositive impact of certain
prison programs.
So you have two verycontrasting stories here, one of
(30:14):
James Earl Ray, who would go onto assassinate a very important
figure in the civil rightsmovement, but then Charles Sonny
Liston who through programs ofboxing in prison, changes his
life around and becomes a boxerand in a way that's a positive
story for some of the reformsthey were trying to do.
But again, it doesn't talkabout how long that program went
on for and how many people wereas successful as he was.
(30:36):
So during this area the prisonalso continued to face other
issues recultivating in anotherriot in 1981, which once again
drew attention to the facility'sdeteriorating infrastructure
and dangerous conditions.
Remember, at this point thisfacility's almost been open
roughly 100 and almost 45, 150years.
(30:56):
We know that there had to bemajor problems.
When you're talking sanitation,these were originally stone,
concrete structures.
You couldn't just take a wallout and add new plumbing or run
heating very easily.
So there's deterioratingconditions leading probably to
mold, heat and cooling problems.
Overcrowding is getting worseand worse.
You can't just expand heat andcooling problems.
Overcrowding is getting worseand worse.
You can't just expand.
(31:17):
So now you've got, within 25years, another major riot that's
gripping attention.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
So they ended up having changes in the inmate
management policies, and theevolution of inmate management
policies at Missouri StatePrison reflects a broader shift
in correctional philosophiesthroughout the facility's
operational history.
Initially, the managementpolicies were heavily influenced
by the 19th century doctrinesof strict discipline and
(31:46):
segregation, which prioritizedsecurity and control over
rehabilitation.
However, as societal views onpunishment evolved, so did the
prison's approach to managingits inmate population.
One significant change ininmate management was the
gradual move from solitaryconfinement towards more
progressive rehabilitationprograms.
(32:08):
This shift was driven byemerging research and public
discourse advocating for humanetreatment and the focus on
preparing inmates forreintegration into society.
As part of this reform, theprison implemented various
educational and vocationalprograms aimed to equip inmates
(32:29):
with the necessary skills forpost-incarceration life.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And what's interesting is a lot of these
reforms as, again, we've kind oftalked about in the past.
But they were implementedbecause people were coming from
Ireland, england and Europeseeing the prison system that
existed here in the UnitedStates and going, oh that's shit
, we've got to do different.
And basically going back totheir countries demolishing and
tearing down how horrible oursystem was.
(32:55):
Then that literature get backto the US and the US was like,
oh yeah, we are really bad.
We probably need to fix thisbecause they're talking crap
about us.
So like, great, it's just kindof sad that we and even now it's
just kind of sad that we andeven now our prison system is
not the example, it's the almostwhat not to do that other
(33:15):
countries are seeing.
I mean, we have an average of10 million people a year that
enter the criminal justicesystem and over 5 million are
incarcerated a year.
That's not that those arehorrible numbers compared to
other countries and the numberof people they incarcerate.
And here we are getting intothe 2000s and you're
incarcerating people in a jailthat had been built in the 1830s
(33:38):
.
So the administration alsointroduced classification
systems where inmates werecategorized based on risk levels
, behaviors and rehabilitativeprogress, though this allowed
for tailored managementstrategies that aligned with
each inmate's specific needs,facilitating a more individual
approach to corrections.
The system played a crucial rolein improving safety within the
(34:01):
facility by mitigating tensionsand reducing the likelihood of
violence.
So this is where you got to seemore of different prisons
calling different things.
So this is where you got to seemore of different prisons
calling different things.
But your minor offense wing,your low risk inmates that have
more outside access to the yard.
Some of them may be able tocome and go from facilities
obviously not MSP, but just kindof these reforms where, all the
(34:24):
way to the 23 and a half hoursa day people being locked in
their cell, and all of thesecould be done at the same
facility.
I've been to multiple prisonswhere you see these different
levels.
The lowest level risks may onlyhave one guard for 100 people
because they're not going tocause any problems.
Furthermore, changes in policyalso focused on staff training
(34:45):
and development, emphasizing theimportance of professional
development for correctionsofficers.
Training programs wereestablished to enhance officers'
understanding of rehabilitationtheories, philosophies and to
ensure the effective applicationof new management techniques.
Also, along with just trainingthem in how to detain an inmate,
(35:08):
how to safely interact withthem, like it kind of went from
just beating the crap out ofsomebody to more tactical
approaches and things like that.
And it was a very big reformthat really looked at treating
inmates and getting them seen ashuman beings, which really
before the 1950s, 1960s theyjust weren't them seen as human
(35:30):
beings which really before the1950s, 1960s, they just weren't.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
So along with that, you have the legislative and
judicial pressures influencingpolicy reforms, particularly
concerning inmate rights andliving conditions.
These pressures led toadvancements in health care,
mental health services, agrievance process, ensuring the
prison adhered to evolving legaland ethical standards, and you
see that a lot of times when youhave criminal cases, that part
of what is presented in hearingsare the conditions that are
(36:01):
happening at the prison and thethings that are happening there.
Especially, you know, like whenyou're talking about parole or
early release, you're talkingabout somebody who has health
problems and they're trying toget paroled early, or at least
earlier than we would think theyshould be getting out.
Things like not having propermedical care comes into and
plays a part in those things.
Same thing with trying to getconditions on bond.
(36:22):
If a defendant comes before ajudge and says this facility
can't take care of my medicalneeds, it's really hard for you
know, a judge to make a finding.
This person needs to stay therewhen they're not going to get
the medical care that theyneeded.
So it definitely needed to havesome type of reform in order
for these places to meet theirintended purpose.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Well, and also, if you're looking from academics
and evidence-based practiceslike the 1950s to 70s, which is
kind of the time period we'retalking about, right, providing
more services to them, thatcould decrease some of those
tensions, especially, likethey're talking about here,
mental health problems andthings like that, which becomes
more of a concern as we enterthe 1970s to now because with
(37:31):
the institutionalizationunfortunately so many more
people with mental health issuesended up on the streets without
access to mental healthtreatment and the jails and
prisons like MSP would becomekind of the de facto mental
health facilities.
So within Missouri State Prisonwe do see the rise of
rehabilitation programs acrossthe 70s mental health facilities
.
So within Missouri State Prisonwe do see the rise of
rehabilitation programs acrossthe 70s to 90s, with a variety
(37:56):
of programming and activitiesthat were established to try and
be more rehabilitative andreally push personal development
.
So these initiatives reflecteda shift away again from that
purely punitive measure, likewe're not just here to punish
you but we're also trying tohelp you become a better member
(38:17):
society when we return you tothe streets.
So there was pushes to promotea balanced lifestyle within the
prison, contribute to a morepositive atmosphere and reduce
incidences of violence anddiscontent.
By addressing educational,spiritual and recreational needs
, the MSP activities played apivotal role in overall
(38:39):
strategies for inmaterehabilitation and institutional
management.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
So you had things like the educational and
vocational programs, which wouldbe educational programs that
were a cornerstone of theactivities, offering a range of
opportunities from basicliteracy and numeracy classes to
vocational training.
The prison aimed to equipinmates with skills that could
(39:06):
be utilized in the workforce,thereby reducing recidivism and
by enhancing their employability, giving them tools that they
could use so that they wouldn'tagain go back to criminal ways
to support themselves.
Courses in trades such ascarpentry, plumbing and
electrical work wereparticularly popular, providing
practical training that wasvaluable both inside and outside
(39:29):
the prison walls.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
But you still had prison industries, so you still
kind of had these inmates thatwere being used to do work
inside the prison.
They were producing goods suchas license plates, manufacturing
items sold to the statedepartments.
Like I said when I was in themilitary, like our toilet paper,
some of our uniforms and stuffwere made by inmates and this
(39:52):
work helped to fund the prisonswhile giving inmates a
productive outlet.
So prisons are looking for away to continue to decrease
their costs while keeping theinmates active and engaging in
something.
I'm sure people don't seemaking toilet paper as like a
great job skill, but it isteaching them showing up to work
at certain times, leaving atcertain times, being productive
(40:14):
the entire day.
So even those base root skillsthat are needed to succeed in a
job field outside of prison- andof course, during COVID, we
figured out how important toiletpaper actually is.
Absolutely so.
These inmates would have beenamazing in 2020.
Another thing that's dear to myheart and again is important
(40:35):
just coming from social workthat's been pushed for for a
long time inside prisons is thepsychological counseling and
substance abuse programs.
A lot of inmates that we seenow have either mental health
disorders, substance usedisorders or comorbidity of both
, and if you're not treatingthose and you're just putting
them right back out on thestreets, your ability to
(40:57):
reoffend is higher becauseyou're not getting the treatment
you need for those disorders.
And sometimes we know thatsubstance use disorders are
specifically self-medicatingbecause of mental health issues
and they create this own cycleof incarceration.
So with the growth of awarenessof mental health, missouri state
(41:17):
penitentiary began offeringlimited counseling and addiction
programs.
These were underfunded butprovided some inmates a chance
to address issues related toaddiction and trauma.
And what kind of would comelater?
Is these working with outsidenonprofits and other
organizations, where maybe wecan't offer these in prison, but
(41:40):
before you're paroled orreleased, you would go to a
temporary facility that couldoffer those treatments and stuff
before you're completelyreleased.
So yeah, we're not going tooffer it in prison, but we are
going to mandate it beforeyou're allowed out or early
release, that you have to go toa facility outside.
So it's kind of a mid range totry and at least get them some
(42:02):
type of treatment before they'reput on the streets.
So I think that that was a bigone.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
And I think that's a problem we continue to have
today, at least in my experience.
We used to struggle to findfacilities where we could send
people who had dual diagnosis.
So if you had somebody who hada psychological issue and a
substance abuse issue and, asyou pointed out, a lot of people
self-medicate and that's howthe substance abuse issue starts
(42:26):
On the psychological side, theywould say you need to be clean,
we're not going to take youbecause we can't help you until
you are no longer addicted tosubstances.
And then on the substance abuseside, they would say well, we
have to treat your psychologicalstuff because you're
self-medicating, and until thepsychological aspect is fixed,
we can't do anything to help you.
And so these dual diagnosisdefendants would get caught up
(42:49):
in the system where they justthey couldn't get help from
anywhere and they would just goin circles because, again, there
wasn't enough funding, thereweren't enough spots in these
dual diagnosis facilities totreat the people who needed it
(43:10):
with mental health and substanceuse disorders.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
because even from my own limited work in substance
use treatment because that'skind of where I started when I
thought I want to be a therapistuntil I realized I didn't want
to be a therapist that it's nota one time and you're cured,
like a lot of individuals,especially when you start
getting into things like harderdrugs, like opioids, heroin,
things like that.
It takes four or five, sixtrips to rehab.
Heroin, things like that.
It takes four, five, six tripsto rehab.
(43:32):
And the justice system incorrections really had kind of
more of a focus on well, we sentyou once, it didn't happen.
We're just going to send youright back to prison and not
have these longer term treatmentunderstandings, and I think
we're still fighting that.
But it was good to at least see, even at the very limited level
, that Missouri State Penn triedto bring those in.
(43:53):
But the problem is as well, andespecially in an older facility
like this, it's so easy to getdrugs in that even if you
offered rehab, it's very easyfor them to go to those classes
and come back and do some typeof drugs that were either
created in the jail or smuggledin by somebody.
But another good source forinmates was the religious
(44:14):
programs.
So throughout the prison systemin the United States, going all
the way back to some of thefirst, including the Eastern
State, religion has always beena pivotal cornerstone of our
Reformation system.
(44:35):
So religious and spiritualprograms played a significant
role within chaplaincy servicesand religious study groups
available to inmates of variousfaiths.
These programs were intendednot only to provide spiritual
support but also to promotemoral reflection and personal
growth.
So participation in religiousactivities often contributed
positively to an inmate'sbehavioral record, impacting
their eligibility for parole orspecial privileges.
(44:58):
And there's a lot of that withlike early release programs and
things like that.
One of the things that can beconsidered good time is that
you've been going to church,talking with religious leaders
and really shown this moral andethical development and growth
through multiple religions.
It's not just Christian-basedin the prisons that I've seen.
I'm sure there are some thatmay be different, but Bible
(45:19):
study courses and counselingsessions were available and
religious programs became one ofthe few sources of emotional
and spiritual support forinmates.
And, on a side note, they alsowere one of the few safe zones
was inside the religious, thechapels or whatever where
inmates were safe.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
So we talked about a lot of the problems that were
happening at MSP and, of course,those problems eventually led
to the closure of Missouri StatePrison, and that occurred after
significant deliberation andanalysis, reflecting an
accumulation of factors thatultimately led to the decision
to cease its operations.
(45:59):
A primary reason for theprison's closure was its aging
infrastructure, which we talkedabout earlier how you can't just
add on to it or run extra heator plumbing through it and it
was struggling to meet themodern standards required for
security, inmate housing andrehabilitation programs.
(46:21):
The facility, with itshistorical construction, was
deemed inadequate in providingthe necessary conditions for a
humane and safe correctionalenvironment.
In addition to theinfrastructure concerns,
evolving penal philosophiescontributed to the decision.
The late 20th century saw ashift towards more
(46:43):
rehabilitative and less punitiveapproaches, emphasizing the
need for facilities that couldsupport these new correctional
strategies.
Alternatives such ascommunity-based programs and
newer, more adaptablecorrectional facilities offered
more promising opportunities forreform and efficiency in the
penile system.
(47:03):
So on October you said penileIn the penile system.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
So on October, you said penile, you said penile.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
I did.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Efficiency in the penile system.
So October 14th 2004, theMissouri State Penitentiary was
finally closed to be replaced bythe new Jefferson City
Correctional Center.
But this was done because ofpolitical and public pressures
that also influenced thedecision, as public outcry over
(47:33):
prison condition and advocatesfor reform created momentum for
change.
So that facility is closed downafter almost 180 years of usage
, which again, I think says alot about our justice and
criminal justice system.
Specifically, corrections, LikeI think, when you look at law
(47:55):
enforcement, it has advancedrapidly, but mostly that's for
the protection of the communityand officers.
When you look at the courtsystem, those have changed, have
been adapted quickly becauseit's for the protection of
lawyers, judges, the citizensthat come in, victims and again
the officers that testify.
I think corrections because westill have this very negative
(48:17):
stigma of crime and mentalhealth and everything else is
the last thing that people thinkto give a shit about.
So it's always going to be thelast place that we are willing
to put resources, because westill very much have a punitive
mind frame, that we have topunish criminals, not help
reform them or get them theservices and things they need.
(48:38):
So overall decision to closeMissouri State Penitentiary was
a multifaceted one, encompassingthe infrastructural problems,
philosophical shifts and needsfor evidence-based practices.
Economic issues it was justbecoming so expensive to run
this massive facility you thinkabout the heating and plumbing
and all that that would havegone on and then, finally, just
(48:59):
political considerations.
It looks better to.
Let's get a new facility.
Look at the new thing we'vebrought.
We really care about prisonersand inmates.
The closure marked the end of anera, transitioning from a
historical institute to a focuson future forward correctional
practices.
So now, before we kind of wrapup the thing of this, the
(49:22):
Missouri State Penitentiary isnow a tourist attraction that
you can visit for differentlevels and hours.
If you were to visitthemissouripentourscom, they
offer tours.
We are not sponsored by thesepeople by any means.
I just think these are reallycool places to go visit.
So you can get a two-hourhistorical tour.
There is a three-hour in-depthhistory tour.
(49:42):
There's a three-hour formerinmate tour where you can learn
from former inmates of thisprison itself, which I think
would actually be cool.
We're going to have to go dothat.
You can do a private historytour, a private three-hour tour,
and then every once in a whilethey do a ghost tour.
We're not going to get intothat.
This is not that type ofpodcast, but we will now kind of
(50:05):
look at the legacy of theMissouri State Penitentiary.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
So the Missouri State Penitentiary, which closed
again we talked about it in 2004, 20 years ago remains a symbol
of both the failures andoccasional successes of the US
penal system.
While it provided opportunitiesfor work and education, its
reputation for violence,exploitation and inhumane
(50:31):
conditions persists.
The prison's legacy continuesto influence debates around
prison reform, overcrowding andrehabilitation in the modern era
.
So all of these things arestill going on.
I hate to sound negative, butnothing's changed.
It's the same debate that we'vehad forever, and we still don't
know what to do or how to solvethese problems.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
And it's going to be a debate again.
This, you know, podcast episodeisn't the place to get into it,
but moving into the future,especially when we talk about
private prisons and for-profitprisons.
Private prisons and for-profitprisons when people become
paychecks, are we really worriedabout society and reformation
(51:15):
or is it more about profit?
So, in conclusion, todayportions of msp have been
preserved as historical site,attracting visitors with its
dark history and offering tours,like I said, including ghost
tours, to reflect on itsbeautiful past, its brutal past
and beautiful past.
I mean, if you look at it froman architectural standpoint, it
(51:36):
is like a very historicallybeautiful building.
If you look at it that it's nothousing, beating and
brutalizing a large portion of apopulation.
So if you get a chance, Irecommend going and visiting
places like this, like we didEastern State Penitentiary.
They do tours going andvisiting Missouri State
Penitentiary and we're going tocover others, like over time.
(51:57):
I think these are kind of funlittle in between episodes to do
, where we're getting away frommurder, death, destruction, all
those joyous things that we talkabout, and true crime and
criminal justice, but to talkabout, like these facilities and
how we have tried to reform andwe kind of shine light on the
individuals, and this one wasMissouri is a little bit more of
(52:20):
an overview, not really, andnonprofits have tried some
successfully, some notsuccessfully to reform and help
make our justice system notpurely punitive but to make it a
place of reformation and,hopefully, resurrection.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
I mean, ultimately that's what we need, because if
we have these people that aren'table to integrate back into
society, then you know what arewe going to do with them.
It's horrible to think thatyou're just going to warehouse
people indefinitely.
And I think a lot of thesepeople still have value, like
not to sound selfish as far asto society, but they do like.
(53:05):
They have people that they canconnect with, they have family
members, they have friends.
They could find some type of ajob where they could gain
satisfaction from doingsomething but also help other
people at the same time.
So ultimately, it'd be nice ifwe only had first offenders and
once we were able to help people, that would be it and they
(53:27):
would not be in the systemanymore um, and I think and it's
kind of like a sad note to goout onto a point, and a positive
one.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
at the same time, though, there are a lot of
people who make mistakes thatend up in prison, and we have to
reform those, but there also isthe fact that we do have
monsters out there that lurk thestreets that do need to be
(54:01):
locked away, designed for trade,that now run and rule people's
lives, that have done nothingbut fuel criminal organizations,
drug gangs and the violencethat we see in the crimes that
we are now punishing people for.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
I completely agree.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
I want to thank you all so much for listening to our
little podcast.
This is created with love andpassion for criminal justice and
true crime.
So if you're enjoying thepodcast, please follow us, like
or rate us on whatever systemyou're listening to us on,
subscribe to our podcast anddownload episodes.
Downloads are important for ourgrowth, as is growing our
(54:42):
listeners.
So if you wouldn't mind, takethe time to ask your friends,
family, co-workers, tell themabout us through word of mouth,
social media I don't care if youeven scream at strangers on the
streets to help us kind of getout there who we are.
If you're interested in learningmore, you could visit our
website atwwwdeviantcriminologycom.
(55:03):
There you'll find some stuffabout our backgrounds,
references, show notes for eachepisode.
You can also follow us on ourFacebook page at Deviant
Criminology.
We also have an Instagram page,which is deviant underscore
criminology, or find me atdrrichardweaver on Instagram,
(55:24):
and as we grow, we hope todevelop a community that will
grow with us.
So again, thank you for takingthe time to listen and have a
good week you.
So I'm Richard, I'm Heather, and this is Deviant
Criminology.
So this week we're kind ofgoing back to something we've
looked at doing and oneepisode's already been done of
kind of talking about thehistory of certain
penitentiaries and institutions,and some of these, like Eastern
State Penitentiary and the onewe're going to talk about today,
missouri State Penitentiarythey're now historical sites
(01:03):
that you can go tour and stuff,and Heather and I are going to
present this case today.
But it was brought to us by ourwonderful producer, nancy, who
put this together.
So, though we know some of thehistory and background of
prisons and penitentiaries, thisis an episode that's special to
her.
So again we're talking about theMissouri State Penitentiary,
(01:24):
which is located in JeffersonCity, missouri.
It stands as the oldest andmost infamous prison in the
United States.
So, operating for nearly 170years from 1836 to 2004,
missouri State Penitentiarywitnessed the evolution of the
American prison system, theirperiods of intense overcrowding,
brutal treatment of prisoners,violent uprisings and a
(01:47):
reputation for laborexploitation.
That kind of seems like to be atheme of, especially in the
early years of our reform systemis the use of hard labor.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah Well, labor in general.
Like I agree with you on thehard labor, but even like I
don't know about you, but when Iwas a kid they used to say, oh,
they make the license platesthere.
Like I agree with you on thehard labor, but even like I
don't know about you, but when Iwas a kid they used to say, oh,
they make the license platesthere.
Like just labor in general.
And it makes me wondersometimes are people making
money off of this, especiallywith all the privatization, like
what aspects are there, youknow complications, conflict of
(02:18):
interest, things like that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I think there are.
Like I mean, I know they'remaking some money off of it.
Like I remember when I was inthe military, certain like
toiletries and stuff we had weremade in prisons, so like
private companies were profitingoff of their work.
So and this seems to be kind ofa thing across the reformation
(02:49):
of all prisons in the UnitedStates at some point prior to
1930s when that reform?
really started to get away fromthat, all because of the
Industrial Revolution.
I was informed.
I had to bring the mic closerto me, so I will now continue
with my rendition about theMissouri State Prison.
Thanks, nancy.
(03:10):
The history of the MissouriState Prison also reflects
efforts sometimes they weresuccessful, sometimes they were
futile to provide rehabilitationprograms, vocational trainings
and educational opportunities toinmates.
We're going to explore thevarious stages of the prison's
operations, the conditionswithin the walls.
We're going to talk about thetypes of opportunities it offers
(03:31):
to inmates and then the overallimpact of the facility on the
American history and the prisonsystem.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
So first we'll talk about the early years in the
construction.
So we're talking about 1836 toabout the 1840s.
So when we're talking about theorigins and design, the story
of the Missouri StatePenitentiary began in 1820 when
Missouri became a state.
However, it wasn't until 1836that the state authorized the
(04:00):
construction of a penitentiaryto house the increasing number
of criminals, located on thebanks of the Missouri River in
Jefferson City.
The site was chosen for itsproximity to the state capital
and ease of transportation byriver.
The original design of theprison was based on the
Pennsylvania system, whichemphasized solitary confinement,
which we talked about before.
(04:21):
Not such a great thing forindividuals or their state of
mind.
So, talking about solitary andconfinement, and they use that
as a means of punishment andrehabilitation.
Prisoners were housed inindividual cells, each designed
for isolation, with the beliefthat solitary confinement would
encourage reflection, penanceand eventual reform.
(04:41):
And we talked about that again,that whole solitary confinement
idea that somehow would bringyou closer to God and you'd have
those revelations of how youwant to be a good person.
And then we figured out nope,nope, it really just makes you
crazy.
The first building, a stonestructure, was completed by 1837
, housing up to 100 inmates.
(05:02):
The early vision of the prisonhad separate cells, but
overcrowding quickly became anissue as the prison population
grew.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And we saw that in eastern states too.
The idea was solitaryconfinement, but between
corruption, which was alreadybeing sought out right in the
beginning, and then also justthe way that these were being
used as institutions to houseinmates who were being convicted
of all types of crimes which itwasn't really established for.
So the initial design of theMissouri State Prison reflected
(05:31):
the 19th century emphasis onimposing architecture as a means
of deterrence.
So if you look at the outsideof the Missouri State Prison
it's very imposing, it's verymedieval looking almost, and
just kind kind of like I don'twant to be behind whatever is on
the other side of those walls.
So it was built primarily,primarily, of stone.
(05:52):
The facilities constructionfeatured a formidable exterior,
characterized by its high wallsand narrow windows, so that old
english fort look, designed toboth confined and isolate.
The architectural blueprint wasintended to convey a sense of
authority and order over thepeople on the inside and to
(06:13):
strike fear in the individualson the outside.
So throughout its operationalyears the Missouri State
Printing Treasury underwentseveral renovations and
expansions.
Same thing we see in othersprison where it started as one
building, but the rapid growthand need of our, I dare say,
industrial prison complex.
It's just the rapid growth andthe realization that you
(06:36):
couldn't do all these individualcells.
You had to start doing massincarcerations, almost so.
Notable refurbishment periodsincluded the late 19th century
and then some in the early andmid-20th century, each marked by
the integration of moreadvanced security technologies
and the construction ofadditional cell blocks.
(06:56):
So you're seeing things like thegates, these big gates that
were being put in the guardtowers that would start being
seen with the shooters orofficers with rifles in them.
It was definitely about theleast amount of prison guards
for the maximum amount ofinmates, and we see that again.
(07:19):
It comes up today where there'sjust not enough guards, but the
state can only afford to do somuch with what it has.
The architectural style of theprison is emblematic of the
penal design philosophiesprevalent in the United States
during its time of construction,characterized by its imposing
(07:43):
facades.
But what was not only common inprisons but it was also in
academics and religiousbuildings.
So you see this on collegecampuses from back around this
time period of this almostEnglish England inspired
architecture.
This architectural approach wassignificant in shaping public
perceptions and expectations forincarceration and it further
(08:07):
embedded the institution withinthe society and historical
fabric of Missouri.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
So let's talk about the first inmates.
The first inmates at MSParrived in 1837, and it was a
modest group that quickly grewas the state continued to send
convicts to the prison.
Early prisoners were oftenincarcerated for offenses like
theft and violent crimes.
The original solitaryconfinement system became
impractical as the populationswelled and by the 1840s the
(08:36):
prison moved towards morecommunal living arrangements.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Now we'll kind of talk about the daily schedule
that inmates would go through.
So daily life in MSP wasmeticulously structured.
There was a very set routine towhat inmates had to do.
This was done to.
These structures were there tohelp in store and maintain order
, to make discipline apparent tothe inmates and to provide
(09:04):
security.
Inmates adhered to a regimentestablished that began early in
the morning and concluded in theevening.
So their schedules would startvery early in the morning and
then would conclude in theevening, facilitating the
operational needs of theinstitution, such as cooks,
laundry facilities, things ofthat nature, and then
(09:25):
rehabilitation of its population.
When that was moved into thedaily lives at MSP, they
typically started their day atdawn, with inmates being
awakened for roll call, andbreakfast Meals were served in
shifts with an emphasis onefficiency and minimal
interaction between prisoners toprevent disturbances.
So again, this kind of goes tothat, trying to isolate
(09:48):
individuals from each other asmuch as possible.
Following breakfast, inmateswere assigned to work details or
educational programs.
So they either went to one ofthe workshops that were provided
or they're allowed to attendeducational programming which
history would show us involvedreligious studies or basic high
school classes and as theydeveloped into the middle and
(10:12):
late 20th century would have hadprobably some GED and college
classes as well.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Which we still try to do now.
We try to offer educationalopportunities at facilities.
I don't know how muchpractically they help, but I
mean we still try to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And part of that's going from that again punitive
punishment of the originalconcept of prisons being a way
to bring people closer to Godand that crime was a moral
failure.
And more now we saw afterReformation in the prison
systems, of it being more of alike how do we make you not
commit crimes again?
Because we know these are morepsychological, economical and
socially based.
(10:51):
Not you've stopped believing inGod or you've turned from God.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
So it's definitely the educational piece comes into
that If an educated society andan educated person brings about
a more productive member ofsociety, as long as you can
overcome the stigmas, though,and get a job, which is I mean,
that's another complication thateven if you get the education,
if you don't get the opportunityto apply it, that doesn't help
you reintegrate.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Oh, exactly, and I think they're trying to even
work that now with theimplementation of like realizing
there's a shortage of skilledlabor workers and imposing not
imposing but implementing likewelding classes and plumbing
classes and teaching trades toinmates, where they really do
have an opportunity to get outand maybe have a job that pays a
decent amount compared to howit used to be of just here's a
(11:40):
ged or a high school diploma I'dgo out and find something and
industries that already aren'twilling to take inmates.
Now you're sending skilledlabor workers out into a
workforce that needs people.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
So the work assignments varied, including
tasks within the prisonindustries, including things
like maintenance of the facilityor outdoor labor in fields or
gardens.
These labor assignments wereintegral to the institution's
self-sustaining model, aiming toinstill a work ethic and
facilitate skill acquisitionamong the inmates, which was you
(12:14):
know again today would besomething like the trades.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And educational and religious service were also
pivotal components of dailyroutines, offering inmates
opportunities for bothintellectual and moral
development.
Participation in classes,literacy programs or religious
gatherings was often encouraged,serving both rehabilitative and
disciplinary functions.
So that's one of the thingsthat we would see now like for
(12:38):
early release and stuff isgetting a better education,
finding or connecting with faithor faith-based organizations.
So across the Missouri StatePenitentiary's time they were
kind of ahead of their time incertain areas of really pushing
these things.
The afternoon mirrored themorning, with a continuation of
work, assignments andeducational or spiritual
(12:59):
activities and are spread withmeals and mandatory recreational
periods and are spread withmeals and mandatory recreational
periods.
Recreation was tightlycontrolled, with limited access
to outdoor spaces and monitoredinteractions intended to reduce
tensions and promote physicalwell-being, and that was a thing
that would be worried about.
I mean, even today you worryabout everybody in prison is not
going to get along.
(13:19):
They're not friends.
You had gangs even back 20s,30s, actually back in the 1800s.
There's a lot of documentationof gangs and organized groups,
so you would want to keep themseparated.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So when it came to the evenings, that was typically
reserved for personal time,during which inmates could
engage in limited socialactivities or hobbies or
personal reflection within theconfines of their own cells.
Lights Out signaled the end ofthe day, with strict enforcement
ensuring adherence to theschedule.
The structure routine wasdesignated not only to reduce
(13:54):
idle time, which could lead tounrest, but also to promote a
sense of normalcy and discipline, preparing inmates for the
eventual reintegration intosociety, which, of course, has
been the goal for a lot of theseprograms.
We try to attain it, but itdoesn't always work.
But understanding this dailyrhythm provides insight into the
penal philosophy of the timeand reflects broader trends in
(14:18):
prison management andrehabilitation efforts.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
And it's kind of almost the same thing you see in
the military.
If you have that very scheduledroutine, you're always keeping
people busy, there's less timeto mess up, less time to have
those bad interactions.
So it for the most parthopefully worked.
But obviously we've seen insome of the stuff we've already
talked about in the past andwe're going to talk about here
(14:42):
it doesn't always work that wayand sometimes even just the
changing of wardens can have,you know, you go from a place
that's very positive andsocially, promotes interactions
and positive to somebody thatcomes in and wants to do more of
that punishment and strongenforcement.
It can completely change afacility.
(15:03):
So expansion in prison laborbetween 1850s and 1900s by the
1850s in Missouri StatePenitentiary was overcrowded.
Again, we've seen this in a lotof facilities we've talked
about, or just that we knowabout so far, promoting the
construction of additional cellblocks and a rethink of the
prison's layout.
And so by the time the CivilWar erupted, msp housed over 600
(15:26):
inmates.
As more convicts were sent tothe facility and with prison
overcrowding, there was violenceand tension between the guards
and the inmates.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So, when it comes to prison labor we touched on this
just a moment ago we have thebirth of industrialized labor,
and as the prison's populationexpanded, so did the demand for
prison labor.
The late 19th century saw theintroduction of the convict
leasing program, a practicewhich prisoners released to
private companies to reformlabor for companies, and that
(15:58):
included things like railroadconstruction, mining and
agriculture.
The system allowed the state tooffset the cost of maintaining
the prison while exposinginmates to extremely dangerous
and exploitative work conditions.
Many prisoners, especiallythose sent to work in coal mines
which we've been talking aboutcoal mines a lot today and
(16:21):
railroads suffered injuries,disease and even death.
At the prison itself, inmateswere put to work producing goods
for both the state and privateindustry, including furniture,
clothing, bricks and othermaterials.
This forced labor often leftinmates working long hours with
little to no compensation.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I mean mean and this is when we go back and look at
the prison system specifically,and it's a fear we talk about
today even but this was forcedlabor and slavery.
It was you committed a crime.
Well, now you're indentured tothe state and we can do whatever
we want with you.
And Missouri is probably one ofmany states and I couldn't tell
(17:04):
you how many right now becauseI didn't do that research, but I
will and bring it back atanother time of chain gangs and
things like that, where theywere sent out and forced to work
in harsh conditions.
But because you're an inmate andyou committed a crime, it
didn't matter the crime.
You had to basically become anindentured servant until
sometimes you paid off your debt, which is kind of where that
(17:24):
comes from paying off your debtto society.
Sometimes you had to earn acertain amount before you'd be
set free, because of eitherrestitution that you owed or
whatever fines had been imposedon you.
So your physical labor, wheresomebody may make a dollar an
hour, you were paid a cent anhour.
You had to get all thattogether.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
So, as a which is kind of interesting when you
think about it, because we hadthe debtors' prisons in Europe
and we came here and we said,okay, we're not going to have
debtors' prisons anymore.
But now instead, you're goingto have to pay court costs and
in order to pay those courtcosts and fines and fees, you
need to pay it with money.
And oh, you don't have anymoney, so I guess you're going
to have to work that off.
So we're really back to thedebtors' prisons.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Well, and even in the United States in the beginning
we had debtors' prisons, butthose were jails.
It wasn't as long-term.
But then we started having tointermix as we took a different
approach on criminal justice.
We had to take people andactually punish them for their
(18:29):
crimes outside of the physicalbeatings and executions that
were being done.
So the debtors were being putin with actual violent criminals
.
And then we were like, oh, wehave to start a jail system
which is as we talked about,with Eastern State and Missouri
State Prison Penitentiary andMissouri State Penitentiary.
These were facilities made toseparate back out those debtors
which, again, you would know alot more about, like the
(18:50):
misdemeanor versus felonies andwhy jails only house them for so
amount of time.
But in the end theseenvironments that they had, the
overcrowding and everything didlead to these problems of unrest
, and Missouri StatePenitentiary was not immune from
this.
The cramped, oppressiveconditions at the facility led
(19:12):
to frequent escapes and violentconfrontation between inmates
and guards.
The harsh treatment andovercrowding resulted in
numerous attempts to break freefree.
There was a hope high profileescape of George machine gun
Kelly and notorious gangster ofthe 1930s, which seems to kind
of be like our era right now.
We kind of got to get out ofthis 1930s thing, yeah, and
(19:34):
there was a lot of really notgreat but a lot of like famous
criminals from there, andMachine Gun Kelly is definitely
one of those names that you justhear and you've heard it before
.
But inmates would regularlyfight not only with each other
or stage violent riots, but theywould also fight with guards.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So then that gets us up to the early 20th century and
our struggle for reformattempts.
So we're talking about like1900 to the 1950s, and during
that time there were escalatingproblems.
Specifically, by the early 20thcentury, msp was widely
regarded as one of the mostovercrowded and violent prisons
in the country.
(20:13):
Conditions inside were abysmaland prisoners faced frequent
abuse, unsanitary livingconditions, inadequate food and
lack of access to medical care.
The prison was also largelyunprepared to handle the growing
number of inmates, leading toincreasingly dangerous and
unstable conditions.
The 1917 prison riot was awatershed moment in the prison's
(20:37):
history.
The prison riot was a watershedmoment in the prison's history.
Inmates angry over theirtreatment seized control over
the facility and for severaldays the prison was effectively
in a state of anarchy.
The National Guard was calledin to restore order and several
prisoners were killed in theviolence.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
This riot marked a significant escalation in
tensions between inmates andprison authorities and
highlighted the systemicfailures of the facility.
Again, this is something we sawwith Eastern State Penitentiary
as well is kind of these riotsituations, these very violent
encounters between the two, andeven though there was a lot of
kind of obvious things that wereleading up to this, there was
(21:22):
just so much mismanagement andbad handling and abuses of power
and corruption that were beingseen, especially that 1900 to
1950s time period that not onlywas Missouri State of Inventory
not immune from, but it wasalmost kind of like a hallmark
of how bad these situationscould be.
So there were several reformefforts that were sought to
(21:46):
address the appalling conditionsat the facility.
While the broader trend in theUS corrections leaned towards
punitive measures, there werebrief attempts to offer
educational opportunities andvocational training to inmates
at Missouri State Penitentiary.
However, these efforts wereoften short-lived, underfunded
and unable to effectivelyovercome the institution's
(22:07):
overcrowding and dangerousenvironment.
And that's just kind of one ofthose bullshit measures that
they've tried in prisons beforewhere it's like oh, here's this
new program, it'll work great.
We saw it in a lot ofsituations where either local,
state or federal organizationswill offer here's a small amount
of money.
You're going to start thisprogram.
Well, six months later, youknow what?
(22:28):
It's not effective.
We're going to pull the funding, not giving it time, not giving
the staffing that's needed.
But they could go to thenewspapers or the media at the
time be like, oh, look whatwe're doing.
We're starting this educationalprogram.
Six months later, fucking cutthe funding, you know, and we're
starting to get into as well.
When you look at the conditionsinside this facility, this is
(22:49):
for prisoners, but we also sawthe.
You could take this exact linewhen it's talking about the lack
of food, the inadequate medicalcoverage coverage, the
overpopulation, and talk aboutthe mental health facilities at
the time, the nursing homefacilities at the time, the
schools for disabled children atthe time this was a wide
(23:10):
problem in the US, with extremeunderfunding for all those that
were not able-bodied,non-convicted people.
So if you were disabled, if youwere elderly, if you were a
prisoner, you all got treatedlike crap in this system and it
took some brave people to comeforward.
So we do see the reforms tryingto happen but, just like we saw
(23:35):
with the institutionalizationof mental health facilities, hey
, we to do these reforms soon asthey start.
Oh, we're just not going tofund them.
So nothing happens and theproblems just continue to
persist.
Well, we tried these things.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
No, you didn't try them, you just wrote it on paper
that you were going to try itso, just like the rest of the
country, there were racialtensions and segregation within
the prison and during thisperiod, like many US prisons,
msp implemented a system ofracial segregation.
African-american inmates wereconfined to separate units and
(24:09):
they often faced more harshtreatment by guards compared to
their white counterparts.
Racial tensions were a constantissue throughout the prison's
history, escalating during the1960s and 1970s, when riots and
violent incidents were oftensparked by issues of segregation
, poor treatment and the broadersocial unrest of the era.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And I think it's really interesting.
I could do a whole class juston this.
But you're seeing reallydefined moments of racial
tension between guards and theblack population in the 60s and
70s.
At the same time, on theoutside, you're seeing the rise
of civil rights.
So it makes you question again.
I don't have the answers rightnow and I'll admit that but was
(24:55):
there racial tension becausecivil rights were being fought
for on the outside and maybesome of the white guards were
taking it out on the blackinmates, while the black inmates
at the same time were wantingand seeking equal treatment?
That's just a little socialworky of me.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
I'm sure there was crossover, though it's not like
it's a bubble.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Exactly they're usually.
To be honest, from myexperience, I don't know about
yours, but the criminal justicesystem always seems almost a
microcosm of the bigger issuesgoing on in society.
Definitely, and I'm going toleave that there, we can do
totally other stuff on that.
But the early 20th centuryagain saw more growth,
overcrowding and reforms.
Saw more growth, overcrowdingand reforms.
(25:37):
But in the 1930s the prisonhoused over 5,000 inmates,
making it one of the largestprisons in the United States,
leading to overcrowding, whichincreased again this violence
and deterioration that we'reseeing in living conditions.
You also see kind of the riseof some really prominent
criminals.
We already talked about MachineGun Kelly's there at this time.
But you also had Pretty BoyFloyd who was serving time for
(26:00):
robbery, which kind of furtherboosted the prison's reputation
as a place that held some of thenation's most dangerous
criminals.
So it's got these problems withovercrowding, but in a way
you're getting these profiledprisoners that are coming in.
That in a weird way is bringingmedia attention.
That's not wanted by MissouriState Penitentiary.
(26:22):
That is going to in a way helpbring reforms because it's
getting in a bad light.
But with the rise of publicawareness of prison conditions,
because of this, msp beganimplementing limited reforms.
Again, they tried to put thesebasic educational programs to
help inmates improve theirliteracy.
(26:43):
They tried to bring invocational training aimed at
teaching trades like carpentrywe kind of talked about this to
bring trades like carpentry,welding and mechanics Again.
However, these are scarceresources.
It's really hard to convincepoliticians and people outside
you know that, not in mybackyard mentality Like well,
why are you going to take my taxdollars to pay for inmates and
(27:06):
criminals?
Like really they're there to bepunished?
We haven't gotten quite towhere we're going to start
talking about reforms like wesee being pushed in the late 60s
and beyond.
But again these efforts fellshort.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
So that leads to the next incident In 1954, msp
experienced one of the worstriots in US history, which
cemented its reputation as oneof the most dangerous prisons in
the country.
On September 22nd, tensionsover harsh conditions,
overcrowding and poor treatmentled inmates to riot.
They took control of parts ofthe prison, set fires and
(27:41):
attacked guards, causingextensive damage and endangering
lives.
During the chaos, prisoners setfire to multiple buildings and
clashed with law enforcement.
Four inmates were killed, 50were injured and hundreds were
involved in violentconfrontations with guards.
The Missouri National Guard wascalled in to regain control and
(28:01):
the riot was quelled only after12 hours of standoff.
The event highlighted thebrutal conditions at MSP and
triggered national attention,sparking public outrage and
calls for reform.
In the aftermath, msp underwentrepairs and made modest
(28:21):
improvements, but the systemicissues of overcrowding, violence
and poorer conditions persisted.
The riot's legacy lingered,leading Time magazine to dub MSP
the bloodiest 47 acres inAmerica.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
And this wasn't like an isolated incident.
There were other notableviolent confrontations that had
happened and notable inmates aswell that were there.
So through the 1960s and 1970sthere were more clashes that
happened and then some incidentsthat happened with inmates that
(29:01):
escaped.
So one of those famous ones isJames Earl Ray, which I think
not enough people know thisman's name.
So in 1967, james Earl Ray wasincarcerated at Missouri State
Penitentiary on charges of armedrobbery.
I do think it's interestingthat I have an original Time
magazine article about JamesEarl Ray in my office where I
(29:24):
work and it talks about hismental health issues and
psychological issues.
So it doesn't surprise me thatnot only did he have prior
histories of criminal activity,but after his escape in 1967, a
year later he would assassinateDr Martin Luther King, and Ray's
escape exposed significantsecurity flaws in MSP and
prompted discussions aboutprison security.
(29:46):
Another known person wasCharles Sonny Liston.
So Liston, who would laterbecome a heavyweight boxing
champion, served time at MSP forarmed robbery, served time at
MSP for armed robbery.
He began boxing whileincarcerated and his successful
story later highlighted thepositive impact of certain
prison programs.
So you have two verycontrasting stories here, one of
(30:14):
James Earl Ray, who would go onto assassinate a very important
figure in the civil rightsmovement, but then Charles Sonny
Liston who through programs ofboxing in prison, changes his
life around and becomes a boxerand in a way that's a positive
story for some of the reformsthey were trying to do.
But again, it doesn't talkabout how long that program went
on for and how many people wereas successful as he was.
(30:36):
So during this area the prisonalso continued to face other
issues recultivating in anotherriot in 1981, which once again
drew attention to the facility'sdeteriorating infrastructure
and dangerous conditions.
Remember, at this point thisfacility's almost been open
roughly 100 and almost 45, 150years.
(30:56):
We know that there had to bemajor problems.
When you're talking sanitation,these were originally stone,
concrete structures.
You couldn't just take a wallout and add new plumbing or run
heating very easily.
So there's deterioratingconditions leading probably to
mold, heat and cooling problems.
Overcrowding is getting worseand worse.
You can't just expand heat andcooling problems.
Overcrowding is getting worseand worse.
You can't just expand.
(31:17):
So now you've got, within 25years, another major riot that's
gripping attention.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
So they ended up having changes in the inmate
management policies, and theevolution of inmate management
policies at Missouri StatePrison reflects a broader shift
in correctional philosophiesthroughout the facility's
operational history.
Initially, the managementpolicies were heavily influenced
by the 19th century doctrinesof strict discipline and
(31:46):
segregation, which prioritizedsecurity and control over
rehabilitation.
However, as societal views onpunishment evolved, so did the
prison's approach to managingits inmate population.
One significant change ininmate management was the
gradual move from solitaryconfinement towards more
progressive rehabilitationprograms.
(32:08):
This shift was driven byemerging research and public
discourse advocating for humanetreatment and the focus on
preparing inmates forreintegration into society.
As part of this reform, theprison implemented various
educational and vocationalprograms aimed to equip inmates
(32:29):
with the necessary skills forpost-incarceration life.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And what's interesting is a lot of these
reforms as, again, we've kind oftalked about in the past.
But they were implementedbecause people were coming from
Ireland, england and Europeseeing the prison system that
existed here in the UnitedStates and going, oh that's shit
, we've got to do different.
And basically going back totheir countries demolishing and
tearing down how horrible oursystem was.
(32:55):
Then that literature get backto the US and the US was like,
oh yeah, we are really bad.
We probably need to fix thisbecause they're talking crap
about us.
So like, great, it's just kindof sad that we and even now it's
just kind of sad that we andeven now our prison system is
not the example, it's the almostwhat not to do that other
(33:15):
countries are seeing.
I mean, we have an average of10 million people a year that
enter the criminal justicesystem and over 5 million are
incarcerated a year.
That's not that those arehorrible numbers compared to
other countries and the numberof people they incarcerate.
And here we are getting intothe 2000s and you're
incarcerating people in a jailthat had been built in the 1830s
(33:38):
.
So the administration alsointroduced classification
systems where inmates werecategorized based on risk levels
, behaviors and rehabilitativeprogress, though this allowed
for tailored managementstrategies that aligned with
each inmate's specific needs,facilitating a more individual
approach to corrections.
The system played a crucial rolein improving safety within the
(34:01):
facility by mitigating tensionsand reducing the likelihood of
violence.
So this is where you got to seemore of different prisons
calling different things.
So this is where you got to seemore of different prisons
calling different things.
But your minor offense wing,your low risk inmates that have
more outside access to the yard.
Some of them may be able tocome and go from facilities
obviously not MSP, but just kindof these reforms where, all the
(34:24):
way to the 23 and a half hoursa day people being locked in
their cell, and all of thesecould be done at the same
facility.
I've been to multiple prisonswhere you see these different
levels.
The lowest level risks may onlyhave one guard for 100 people
because they're not going tocause any problems.
Furthermore, changes in policyalso focused on staff training
(34:45):
and development, emphasizing theimportance of professional
development for correctionsofficers.
Training programs wereestablished to enhance officers'
understanding of rehabilitationtheories, philosophies and to
ensure the effective applicationof new management techniques.
Also, along with just trainingthem in how to detain an inmate,
(35:08):
how to safely interact withthem, like it kind of went from
just beating the crap out ofsomebody to more tactical
approaches and things like that.
And it was a very big reformthat really looked at treating
inmates and getting them seen ashuman beings, which really
before the 1950s, 1960s theyjust weren't them seen as human
(35:30):
beings which really before the1950s, 1960s, they just weren't.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
So along with that, you have the legislative and
judicial pressures influencingpolicy reforms, particularly
concerning inmate rights andliving conditions.
These pressures led toadvancements in health care,
mental health services, agrievance process, ensuring the
prison adhered to evolving legaland ethical standards, and you
see that a lot of times when youhave criminal cases, that part
of what is presented in hearingsare the conditions that are
(36:01):
happening at the prison and thethings that are happening there.
Especially, you know, like whenyou're talking about parole or
early release, you're talkingabout somebody who has health
problems and they're trying toget paroled early, or at least
earlier than we would think theyshould be getting out.
Things like not having propermedical care comes into and
plays a part in those things.
Same thing with trying to getconditions on bond.
(36:22):
If a defendant comes before ajudge and says this facility
can't take care of my medicalneeds, it's really hard for you
know, a judge to make a finding.
This person needs to stay therewhen they're not going to get
the medical care that theyneeded.
So it definitely needed to havesome type of reform in order
for these places to meet theirintended purpose.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Well, and also, if you're looking from academics
and evidence-based practiceslike the 1950s to 70s, which is
kind of the time period we'retalking about, right, providing
more services to them, thatcould decrease some of those
tensions, especially, likethey're talking about here,
mental health problems andthings like that, which becomes
more of a concern as we enterthe 1970s to now because with
(37:31):
the institutionalizationunfortunately so many more
people with mental health issuesended up on the streets without
access to mental healthtreatment and the jails and
prisons like MSP would becomekind of the de facto mental
health facilities.
So within Missouri State Prisonwe do see the rise of
rehabilitation programs acrossthe 70s mental health facilities
.
So within Missouri State Prisonwe do see the rise of
rehabilitation programs acrossthe 70s to 90s, with a variety
(37:56):
of programming and activitiesthat were established to try and
be more rehabilitative andreally push personal development
.
So these initiatives reflecteda shift away again from that
purely punitive measure, likewe're not just here to punish
you but we're also trying tohelp you become a better member
(38:17):
society when we return you tothe streets.
So there was pushes to promotea balanced lifestyle within the
prison, contribute to a morepositive atmosphere and reduce
incidences of violence anddiscontent.
By addressing educational,spiritual and recreational needs
, the MSP activities played apivotal role in overall
(38:39):
strategies for inmaterehabilitation and institutional
management.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
So you had things like the educational and
vocational programs, which wouldbe educational programs that
were a cornerstone of theactivities, offering a range of
opportunities from basicliteracy and numeracy classes to
vocational training.
The prison aimed to equipinmates with skills that could
(39:06):
be utilized in the workforce,thereby reducing recidivism and
by enhancing their employability, giving them tools that they
could use so that they wouldn'tagain go back to criminal ways
to support themselves.
Courses in trades such ascarpentry, plumbing and
electrical work wereparticularly popular, providing
practical training that wasvaluable both inside and outside
(39:29):
the prison walls.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
But you still had prison industries, so you still
kind of had these inmates thatwere being used to do work
inside the prison.
They were producing goods suchas license plates, manufacturing
items sold to the statedepartments.
Like I said when I was in themilitary, like our toilet paper,
some of our uniforms and stuffwere made by inmates and this
(39:52):
work helped to fund the prisonswhile giving inmates a
productive outlet.
So prisons are looking for away to continue to decrease
their costs while keeping theinmates active and engaging in
something.
I'm sure people don't seemaking toilet paper as like a
great job skill, but it isteaching them showing up to work
at certain times, leaving atcertain times, being productive
(40:14):
the entire day.
So even those base root skillsthat are needed to succeed in a
job field outside of prison- andof course, during COVID, we
figured out how important toiletpaper actually is.
Absolutely so.
These inmates would have beenamazing in 2020.
Another thing that's dear to myheart and again is important
(40:35):
just coming from social workthat's been pushed for for a
long time inside prisons is thepsychological counseling and
substance abuse programs.
A lot of inmates that we seenow have either mental health
disorders, substance usedisorders or comorbidity of both
, and if you're not treatingthose and you're just putting
them right back out on thestreets, your ability to
(40:57):
reoffend is higher becauseyou're not getting the treatment
you need for those disorders.
And sometimes we know thatsubstance use disorders are
specifically self-medicatingbecause of mental health issues
and they create this own cycleof incarceration.
So with the growth of awarenessof mental health, missouri state
(41:17):
penitentiary began offeringlimited counseling and addiction
programs.
These were underfunded butprovided some inmates a chance
to address issues related toaddiction and trauma.
And what kind of would comelater?
Is these working with outsidenonprofits and other
organizations, where maybe wecan't offer these in prison, but
(41:40):
before you're paroled orreleased, you would go to a
temporary facility that couldoffer those treatments and stuff
before you're completelyreleased.
So yeah, we're not going tooffer it in prison, but we are
going to mandate it beforeyou're allowed out or early
release, that you have to go toa facility outside.
So it's kind of a mid range totry and at least get them some
(42:02):
type of treatment before they'reput on the streets.
So I think that that was a bigone.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
And I think that's a problem we continue to have
today, at least in my experience.
We used to struggle to findfacilities where we could send
people who had dual diagnosis.
So if you had somebody who hada psychological issue and a
substance abuse issue and, asyou pointed out, a lot of people
self-medicate and that's howthe substance abuse issue starts
(42:26):
On the psychological side, theywould say you need to be clean,
we're not going to take youbecause we can't help you until
you are no longer addicted tosubstances.
And then on the substance abuseside, they would say well, we
have to treat your psychologicalstuff because you're
self-medicating, and until thepsychological aspect is fixed,
we can't do anything to help you.
And so these dual diagnosisdefendants would get caught up
(42:49):
in the system where they justthey couldn't get help from
anywhere and they would just goin circles because, again, there
wasn't enough funding, thereweren't enough spots in these
dual diagnosis facilities totreat the people who needed it
(43:10):
with mental health and substanceuse disorders.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
because even from my own limited work in substance
use treatment because that'skind of where I started when I
thought I want to be a therapistuntil I realized I didn't want
to be a therapist that it's nota one time and you're cured,
like a lot of individuals,especially when you start
getting into things like harderdrugs, like opioids, heroin,
things like that.
It takes four or five, sixtrips to rehab.
Heroin, things like that.
It takes four, five, six tripsto rehab.
(43:32):
And the justice system incorrections really had kind of
more of a focus on well, we sentyou once, it didn't happen.
We're just going to send youright back to prison and not
have these longer term treatmentunderstandings, and I think
we're still fighting that.
But it was good to at least see, even at the very limited level
, that Missouri State Penn triedto bring those in.
(43:53):
But the problem is as well, andespecially in an older facility
like this, it's so easy to getdrugs in that even if you
offered rehab, it's very easyfor them to go to those classes
and come back and do some typeof drugs that were either
created in the jail or smuggledin by somebody.
But another good source forinmates was the religious
(44:14):
programs.
So throughout the prison systemin the United States, going all
the way back to some of thefirst, including the Eastern
State, religion has always beena pivotal cornerstone of our
Reformation system.
(44:35):
So religious and spiritualprograms played a significant
role within chaplaincy servicesand religious study groups
available to inmates of variousfaiths.
These programs were intendednot only to provide spiritual
support but also to promotemoral reflection and personal
growth.
So participation in religiousactivities often contributed
positively to an inmate'sbehavioral record, impacting
their eligibility for parole orspecial privileges.
(44:58):
And there's a lot of that withlike early release programs and
things like that.
One of the things that can beconsidered good time is that
you've been going to church,talking with religious leaders
and really shown this moral andethical development and growth
through multiple religions.
It's not just Christian-basedin the prisons that I've seen.
I'm sure there are some thatmay be different, but Bible
(45:19):
study courses and counselingsessions were available and
religious programs became one ofthe few sources of emotional
and spiritual support forinmates.
And, on a side note, they alsowere one of the few safe zones
was inside the religious, thechapels or whatever where
inmates were safe.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
So we talked about a lot of the problems that were
happening at MSP and, of course,those problems eventually led
to the closure of Missouri StatePrison, and that occurred after
significant deliberation andanalysis, reflecting an
accumulation of factors thatultimately led to the decision
to cease its operations.
(45:59):
A primary reason for theprison's closure was its aging
infrastructure, which we talkedabout earlier how you can't just
add on to it or run extra heator plumbing through it and it
was struggling to meet themodern standards required for
security, inmate housing andrehabilitation programs.
(46:21):
The facility, with itshistorical construction, was
deemed inadequate in providingthe necessary conditions for a
humane and safe correctionalenvironment.
In addition to theinfrastructure concerns,
evolving penal philosophiescontributed to the decision.
The late 20th century saw ashift towards more
(46:43):
rehabilitative and less punitiveapproaches, emphasizing the
need for facilities that couldsupport these new correctional
strategies.
Alternatives such ascommunity-based programs and
newer, more adaptablecorrectional facilities offered
more promising opportunities forreform and efficiency in the
penile system.
(47:03):
So on October you said penileIn the penile system.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
So on October, you said penile, you said penile.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
I did.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Efficiency in the penile system.
So October 14th 2004, theMissouri State Penitentiary was
finally closed to be replaced bythe new Jefferson City
Correctional Center.
But this was done because ofpolitical and public pressures
that also influenced thedecision, as public outcry over
(47:33):
prison condition and advocatesfor reform created momentum for
change.
So that facility is closed downafter almost 180 years of usage
, which again, I think says alot about our justice and
criminal justice system.
Specifically, corrections, LikeI think, when you look at law
(47:55):
enforcement, it has advancedrapidly, but mostly that's for
the protection of the communityand officers.
When you look at the courtsystem, those have changed, have
been adapted quickly becauseit's for the protection of
lawyers, judges, the citizensthat come in, victims and again
the officers that testify.
I think corrections because westill have this very negative
(48:17):
stigma of crime and mentalhealth and everything else is
the last thing that people thinkto give a shit about.
So it's always going to be thelast place that we are willing
to put resources, because westill very much have a punitive
mind frame, that we have topunish criminals, not help
reform them or get them theservices and things they need.
(48:38):
So overall decision to closeMissouri State Penitentiary was
a multifaceted one, encompassingthe infrastructural problems,
philosophical shifts and needsfor evidence-based practices.
Economic issues it was justbecoming so expensive to run
this massive facility you thinkabout the heating and plumbing
and all that that would havegone on and then, finally, just
(48:59):
political considerations.
It looks better to.
Let's get a new facility.
Look at the new thing we'vebrought.
We really care about prisonersand inmates.
The closure marked the end of anera, transitioning from a
historical institute to a focuson future forward correctional
practices.
So now, before we kind of wrapup the thing of this, the
(49:22):
Missouri State Penitentiary isnow a tourist attraction that
you can visit for differentlevels and hours.
If you were to visitthemissouripentourscom, they
offer tours.
We are not sponsored by thesepeople by any means.
I just think these are reallycool places to go visit.
So you can get a two-hourhistorical tour.
There is a three-hour in-depthhistory tour.
(49:42):
There's a three-hour formerinmate tour where you can learn
from former inmates of thisprison itself, which I think
would actually be cool.
We're going to have to go dothat.
You can do a private historytour, a private three-hour tour,
and then every once in a whilethey do a ghost tour.
We're not going to get intothat.
This is not that type ofpodcast, but we will now kind of
(50:05):
look at the legacy of theMissouri State Penitentiary.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
So the Missouri State Penitentiary, which closed
again we talked about it in 2004, 20 years ago remains a symbol
of both the failures andoccasional successes of the US
penal system.
While it provided opportunitiesfor work and education, its
reputation for violence,exploitation and inhumane
(50:31):
conditions persists.
The prison's legacy continuesto influence debates around
prison reform, overcrowding andrehabilitation in the modern era
.
So all of these things arestill going on.
I hate to sound negative, butnothing's changed.
It's the same debate that we'vehad forever, and we still don't
know what to do or how to solvethese problems.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
And it's going to be a debate again.
This, you know, podcast episodeisn't the place to get into it,
but moving into the future,especially when we talk about
private prisons and for-profitprisons.
Private prisons and for-profitprisons when people become
paychecks, are we really worriedabout society and reformation
(51:15):
or is it more about profit?
So, in conclusion, todayportions of msp have been
preserved as historical site,attracting visitors with its
dark history and offering tours,like I said, including ghost
tours, to reflect on itsbeautiful past, its brutal past
and beautiful past.
I mean, if you look at it froman architectural standpoint, it
(51:36):
is like a very historicallybeautiful building.
If you look at it that it's nothousing, beating and
brutalizing a large portion of apopulation.
So if you get a chance, Irecommend going and visiting
places like this, like we didEastern State Penitentiary.
They do tours going andvisiting Missouri State
Penitentiary and we're going tocover others, like over time.
(51:57):
I think these are kind of funlittle in between episodes to do
, where we're getting away frommurder, death, destruction, all
those joyous things that we talkabout, and true crime and
criminal justice, but to talkabout, like these facilities and
how we have tried to reform andwe kind of shine light on the
individuals, and this one wasMissouri is a little bit more of
(52:20):
an overview, not really, andnonprofits have tried some
successfully, some notsuccessfully to reform and help
make our justice system notpurely punitive but to make it a
place of reformation and,hopefully, resurrection.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
I mean, ultimately that's what we need, because if
we have these people that aren'table to integrate back into
society, then you know what arewe going to do with them.
It's horrible to think thatyou're just going to warehouse
people indefinitely.
And I think a lot of thesepeople still have value, like
not to sound selfish as far asto society, but they do like.
(53:05):
They have people that they canconnect with, they have family
members, they have friends.
They could find some type of ajob where they could gain
satisfaction from doingsomething but also help other
people at the same time.
So ultimately, it'd be nice ifwe only had first offenders and
once we were able to help people, that would be it and they
(53:27):
would not be in the systemanymore um, and I think and it's
kind of like a sad note to goout onto a point, and a positive
one.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
at the same time, though, there are a lot of
people who make mistakes thatend up in prison, and we have to
reform those, but there also isthe fact that we do have
monsters out there that lurk thestreets that do need to be
(54:01):
locked away, designed for trade,that now run and rule people's
lives, that have done nothingbut fuel criminal organizations,
drug gangs and the violencethat we see in the crimes that
we are now punishing people for.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
I completely agree.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
I want to thank you all so much for listening to our
little podcast.
This is created with love andpassion for criminal justice and
true crime.
So if you're enjoying thepodcast, please follow us, like
or rate us on whatever systemyou're listening to us on,
subscribe to our podcast anddownload episodes.
Downloads are important for ourgrowth, as is growing our
(54:42):
listeners.
So if you wouldn't mind, takethe time to ask your friends,
family, co-workers, tell themabout us through word of mouth,
social media I don't care if youeven scream at strangers on the
streets to help us kind of getout there who we are.
If you're interested in learningmore, you could visit our
website atwwwdeviantcriminologycom.
(55:03):
There you'll find some stuffabout our backgrounds,
references, show notes for eachepisode.
You can also follow us on ourFacebook page at Deviant
Criminology.
We also have an Instagram page,which is deviant underscore
criminology, or find me atdrrichardweaver on Instagram,
(55:24):
and as we grow, we hope todevelop a community that will
grow with us.
So again, thank you for takingthe time to listen and have a
good week you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!