March 3, 2025 • 38 mins
Mary Mallon’s life raises fundamental questions about health, freedom, and the societal treatment of individuals deemed dangerous. This episode explores her transformation from an immigrant cook to an infamous health threat.
• Mary Mallon's early life and journey from Ireland to America
• The emergence of typhoid fever linked to her cooking
• George Soper's investigation and the controversial claims
• The ethical implications of forcibly quarantining Mary
• Her later years under alias and tragic outbreak at Sloan Hospital
• The cultural legacy of “Typhoid Mary” today
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:39):
so this episode, I think, is kind of one of the
ones that starts to give theirish a bad name.
So we wanted to go withsomething again, another light
kind of light, light hearted,but very informative.
This isn't really crime as much, as kind of gets into more a
little bit of ethics, medicalissues, breakouts, what is
quarantine, what's notquarantine.
(00:59):
We're four years late of doingthis during COVID, but we didn't
exist then and we just thoughtit's kind of an interesting
story to share and to have aconversation about from some of
the dilemmas and situations thatthe individual here was put in
when she actually hadn'tcommitted any crime.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Technically we existed, not the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
That's true.
We existed.
The podcast didn't exist, so Ihave fucked this whole thing up,
so I feel like it shouldprobably start over.
But you don't have to restartthe episode, you can just cut it
.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Thanks, Dickhead.
Ah I think it's fine.
I say at this point just leaveit as it is.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
All right.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
So this week, on Deviant Crology, I'm richard,
I'm heather and we're going totalk about the story of mary
malone, also known as typhoidmary so her tragic story tragic
for a lot of people involved,including herself begins on
September 23rd 1869 in the smalltown of Cookstown County,
(02:07):
tyroid, ireland, where Mary wasborn into a world of poverty and
limited opportunities.
Little does anyone know thatthis infant will grow up to
become one of the mostcontroversial figures in public
health history.
When her mother was pregnantwith her, her mother had typhoid
(02:27):
fever, and we don't know howmuch of an impact that has on
her future, but it's somethingthat's interesting.
As a non-doctor person, Iwonder what kind of causation
was there?
Fast forward to 1884, and at 15years old, mary, like many of
her other compatriots, set sailfor America.
Leaving behind the economichardships of rural Ireland, she
(02:51):
arrives in New York City, to abustling metropolis teeming with
opportunity and danger in equalmeasure.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The reason you're seeing all of these Irish
immigrants coming to the UnitedStates is just the poverty
that's being put on them by theEnglish government and just the
English rule that was going onat the time and the persecution
of the Catholics that were there.
That saw America as a newstarting ground.
(03:20):
It was kind of again seen as aland of opportunity.
But there are many great songsabout like the hills of America
and what they saw is the greatopportunity only to come to a
country that treated them asthird class citizens, making it
hard for them to find any typeof employment or get out of
poverty, which unfortunatelykind of becomes the basis of
(03:42):
what happens to young Mary.
So Mary starts her Americanjourney as a domestic servant,
but her culinary skills soon sether apart.
By the turn of the centuriesshe's established herself as a
cook for wealthy families in theNew York City area.
It's a position of respect,offering financial stability and
a step up in the domesticservice hierarchy.
(04:03):
So she goes from kind of beingthis maid to being able to cook.
I'm gonna say it's kind of oddbecause I, you know, I eat irish
food like irish pubs.
I drink, you know, my fairshare of irish made liquors, but
they're not exactly known forlike culinary skills, like
shepherd's pie, um, corned beefand cabbage not what I would
consider like high class, uhfood.
It's amazing but it's not highclass.
(04:25):
But yet somehow she's likereally honed her culinary skills
to the point where thearistocratic elite in New York
are like we want to hire her,which has put her on this new
level of being able to at leastmake some financial movement for
herself in the right direction.
But as Mary moves from kitchento kitchen, a sinister pattern
(04:47):
begins to emerge.
So between 1900 and 1907,typhoid fever follows in her
wake, striking down familymembers and servants alike in
the households where she works.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Around 1906, we find ourselves in Oyster Bay, long
Island.
The wealthy Warren family hasrented a summer home and they're
looking forward to a season ofrelaxation.
Instead, they're hit by adevastating outbreak of typhoid
fever.
Six out of the 11 people in thehousehold fall ill.
At that point, george Soper, asanitary engineer and expert in
(05:22):
disease outbreaks, begins hisinvestigation to find the source
of the infection.
Initially he suspectscontaminated clams, but as he
digs deeper, his attention turnsto the family's recently hired
cook, mary Mallon.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
His investigation uncovers a chilling pattern In
seven out of eight householdswhere Mary had worked over the
past decade, typhoid outbreakshad occurred, and the puzzle
pieces are starting to fall intoplace so I mean a I give them
props that they see this as ahealth emergency, like we're
talking early 1900s, so likeyou're actually putting people
(05:58):
to investigate this and he'ssmart enough to go through and
start looking at the backgroundof who's coming into the
household.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So that's kind of impressive actually for that
time period which one of thesources I read said that they
had rented that house and theperson who owned the house was
worried that they would get abad reputation as being a house
where there was illness.
So they had hired or somehowgot him to be hired to
investigate this because theywanted to basically clear the
(06:27):
house of any nefariousreputation.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Like we're renting this out.
This is our moneymaker.
We are not the center of alldisease here.
Exactly so, in March of 1907,soper tracks down Mary Malone to
her current workplace, whereshe's at a Park Avenue penthouse
.
So she's moved to a differentfamily.
Now what follows is a scenestraight out of a crime thriller
(06:53):
, which is perfect for a truecrime podcast.
Soper confronts Malone,requesting samples for urine,
feces and blood for analysis.
I don't know.
Some random dude shows up.
Like there's not like this timeperiod, there's not really good
identification.
He's just like yeah, I'm fromthe public health sanitation
department.
I need you to pee in this cup.
Give me your poop and bloodsample.
I probably would be like nah,bro, like who the hell are you,
(07:18):
especially a man approaching ayoung Irish immigrant woman.
So Malone, feeling accused andinsulted, reacts violently.
She threatens Soper with acarving fork, forcing him to
beat a hasty retreat.
So yeah, I mean, I'm sorry,that sounds like it would be
creepy.
I wasn't in that situation.
But a dude shows up saying giveme your body fluids.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
I'm sure it was.
And, on the flip side, heprobably would have had a better
result if he had been a creeper, if he had just been like, hey,
I'm a really big weirdo andI'll pay you 50 bucks for some
urine and some pee.
She probably would have beenlike, all right, instead of
saying I think you're makingpeople sick, now give me your
pee and your poo.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah there's a government official, though he
didn't have 50 bucks probablyhe's probably underpaid yeah she
started with a knife.
He's like this is not worth mytime going back to more people,
but actually he's undeterred.
So soper compiles a five-yearemployment history of malone.
The evidence is damning, though.
Out of eight families that shehad worked for, members of seven
(08:22):
claim to have contractedtyphoid fever.
So soper's efforts to obtainsamples from malone continue to
be unsuccessful, which that'skind of vague like that kind of
makes it sound like he's hidingin toilets and stuff like trying
to catch samples, and that justseems kind of weird the way it
was worded in different ways Iread it.
But all right, whatever worksfor him.
He even offers to write a bookabout her and give her all the
(08:46):
royalties, but alone remainsuncooperative.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Which I think again, you know you say I'll write a
book about you and give you someroyalties.
That seems very speculative innature.
How do I know you're going tofollow through with writing a
book?
And even if you do, who's goingto buy it?
And even if they do, how am Igoing to get this money?
It seems kind of far-fetched.
Again, I think he would havebeen better off with the you
know, here's 10 bucks pee in mycup for me.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And that kind of like sounds like the early 1900s
version of the.
I'm a Nigerian prince, justsend me your stuff and magically
a million dollars repeal inyour bank account.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah, if I was a young woman, which I can't
imagine you two can, I can't.
Yeah, I'm not cool with thisLike this.
Everything this guy's doing Amakes him seem like more of a
stockish creeper, because hejust keeps showing up asking for
your body fluids.
And again, how do I know you'rereally who you say you are?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
And he keeps saying that you're sick and you're
making other people sick.
I feel fine, I'm healthy.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I don't know what you're talking about.
You're a weirdo, get out of myface.
Yes, and that's the big thing,is that they're accusing her of
this.
But everything we'd known atthis point medically is this is
communicable disease.
Here are all the symptoms.
If you get it, you have it.
But she's never been sick.
So why I'm not going to giveyou this stuff?
Because I think that, right,there is another factor in that
is she's not feeling sick.
So it just seems like thisguy's creeped.
(10:08):
Like I'm not sick.
You're telling me I'm sick, I'mcarrying this disease and you
want all my body fluids andstuff, like something just comes
off wrong to me.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
But at the same time I have to admire her because she
does tell him no.
And she's, you know, an Irishimmigrant young woman.
And here's this presumablywhite guy in authority who shows
up and says give me thesethings.
And she says, no, oh, she's gotsome strong will there to stand
up to him and say screw you,I'm not giving it to you.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
That's the power of the Irish.
That's right, like theanti-government, and I wonder if
that played anything into itAgain, like that's super
speculative.
So but the coming from Ireland,you're very distrustful of
government officials andeverything and you know all the
suspicion that would have beenaround the way the Irish were
already being treated in 1900.
And suddenly he's a governmentofficial a government official
(10:54):
quote unquote showing up sayingI need your body fluids.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
So once he can't convince her to give up those
bodily fluids, he turns to thereal government officials, the
New York City health authorities, and they send out Dr S
Josephine Baker, who is anadvocate for public health, and
she approaches Mary, you know.
Hopefully better results, butnope, she's unsuccessful as well
(11:18):
in obtaining the samples.
So in 1907, the city officiallytakes this drastic action where
Mary is forcibly arrested inthe interest of public health,
taken to a hospital where sheattempts to escape, but
eventually they're able to run atest and find out that she is
positive as a carrier for thissalmonella that causes typhoid
(11:41):
fever.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
That causes typhoid fever.
So a like just the fact thatshe's asymptomatic, like in
presenting, I think would havebeen a medical like so many
doctors would have jumped allover that to try and understand
that better.
Cause, from what it sounds like, the things I've read about
this and I've read some stuffabout her, a when I was in EMT
and stuff, cause it's just oneof those interesting things.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
But then all the way up till even during covid, like
of course she came back aroundum, and then also talking about
like 100 years since the lastbig outbreak, um, it was very
interesting that, yeah, thethought of somebody who was
asymptomatic, like we didn'tknow that you could be a carrier
and not infect other people theresults at that point in time
are really shocking becausepeople, like you said, didn't
(12:23):
really think about asymptomaticcarriers and she's identified as
the first asymptomatic carrierof salmonella that causes
typhoid fever in the UnitedStates and she had high levels
of that typhoid bacilli in herstool sample, despite showing no
symptoms of the disease at allherself.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So this leads to what will be known as her first
quarantine.
So Mary is quarantined on NorthBrother Island in 1907 and she
is about to begin a three-yearperiod of isolation that will
change her life forever.
So during her confinement, maryis subjected to repeated
interviews and tests.
(13:05):
Health authorities discovermassive amounts of typhoid
bacteria in her samples,indicating that her gallbladder
is the source of the infection.
So Malone vehemently deniesbeing a carrier of typhoid,
though, like she's never beensick, she doesn't feel any
symptoms and I mean there's gotto be part of her that's willing
to resist this because a, as wesee, she's combined for three
(13:26):
years, but the only opportunitythat the irish really had at
this point were these servanttype jobs, especially for women
doing it from ireland.
So to damn her with this andput that on her would take away
her entire possibility to makemoney and really put her into
poverty.
So so when offered the optionto have her gallbladder
surgically removed, she refuses.
(13:48):
Early 1900s, you want to cut meopen?
No, I could understand that.
It's worth noting that at thetime gallbladder remover was a
dangerous procedure with a highmortality rate.
So I'm not sick, I'm notfeeling sick, but you want me to
go through this potentiallydeadly surgery for something I
don't have.
Now, looking back, like I canunderstand it, like we've damned
(14:09):
this woman with, like the wholeyou're typhoid Mary and
everything, but when you lookedat the historical context of
what she faced and the optionsthat are given to her, it was
basically poverty, death, death,poverty, institutionalization.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Which, as somebody who had their gallbladder taken
out, I don't think that I wouldgo in and have it taken out just
because you tell me I'm gettingother people sick and I feel
perfectly fine either.
It's not very, not very fun,not a vacation.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And again you're.
You're being asked to trust thegovernment and trust medical
doctors when you come from aplace that really teaches you
distrust of government officials.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yes, and so, as this whole debate is going on, there
are legal battles going on andin 1909, she attempts
(15:12):
hexamethylene tetramine, whichshe said was threatening to
damage her kidneys.
But from what I understand andwhat I looked up, it said again
I'm not a doctor that it appearsto be something that's used to
treat UTIs and it's analternative to antibiotics and
it basically works in theacidity of the urine, but if
it's in an alkaline environmentit is ineffective and it also is
(15:38):
the base component for C4,which was kind of interesting.
So the complaint ends up beingdismissed by the New York
Supreme Court, but the casesparks significant public debate
and ethical discussions andsome of the medical experts are
questioning the necessity of herbeing forced into quarantine
and arguing that she could betaught to manage her condition
(16:01):
without isolation and withoutgetting other people sick.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And I mean this does get into so many ethical,
constitutional issues becauseshe's not at this point
committed a crime, but you'reforcing her into quote-unquote
quarantine in an institutionwhere she's not allowed to leave
that sounds, and you're forcingher to give you samples and do
medical tests.
(16:25):
That to me sounds likeimprisonment.
So I guess maybe back then itwas a little bit different than
the constitution didn't upholdbecause she was an Irish
immigrant.
I don't know how you wouldjustify taking away somebody's
freedom, except that we'vealways kind of had that
exception for the safety ofothers.
So I don't know.
(16:45):
To me it's just, I understandit but I don't agree with it.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
And I think maybe they could have likened it to a
mental health hold, where youhaven't committed a crime with
that either.
But they separate you and putyou in an institution because
you're a danger to yourself orothers.
Maybe it was that same type ofidea You're a danger to yourself
or others, therefore, we'regoing to put you in this medical
facility.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, it's one of those.
I get it, I just don't like it.
It feels wrong.
Yes, Like and I agree, though,to a point there comes to
they're.
They're asking her to work withthem Like and but like they
these two doctors, miltonRosenaw and Charles Chapin are
are working to try and say thatthey don't think the quarantine
(17:31):
is necessary and there are waysto manage her condition.
But you have to be willing toteach her that.
But she also has to be willingto do that and, as we'll learn
as we're about to get into thisnext section, that kind of seems
to be a problem.
She's just an uncooperative toa point ass in this as well.
She's not an innocent bystander.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
you didn't know she had it, but once she finds out
she's still not willing to doanything about it she's in
complete denial yes, andcompletely uncooperative so in
february of 1910, after nearlythree years of being quarantined
, she's released under thecondition that she will never
work as a cook again, and sheagrees to initially find work
(18:18):
doing laundry.
And unfortunately for her, whenyou're doing laundry it pays
about half the rate of what itwould pay to be a cook.
So this isn't just a minor stepdown, this is a major step down
for her minor step down.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
This is a major step down for her, and not just the
step down in that happy.
But because she was so good,there was a potential as a cook
to move up.
More is the reputation thatcould have brought her into
better people's service, andsomebody may have heard of her
skills as a cook and almostpoached her and made her an
offer for more money, so you'redamning her to even more chance
of poverty Again.
When we're looking at where shecame from, her Irish background
(18:57):
, language, the way she looked,she was already going to be
restricted, and now you'retaking that away.
And it sounds like, though,that they're trying to give her
the tools, though, and she's notbeing cooperative, and that
happens again.
Next, because the story doesn'tend there.
Struggling financially due tothose low wages, mary eventually
(19:18):
returns to cooking undervarious aliases, such as Miss
Brown.
This decision will have direconsequences, unfortunately so.
In 1915, while working as acook for the Sloan Maternity
Hospital, under a false name,malone is linked to a typhoid
outbreak that infects 25 people,resulting in two deaths.
Now, in my theory, now she'scrossed the line right now I
(19:43):
mean a.
She chose a maternity hospital,as you said when we were kind of
writing this up and talkingabout it.
You're endangering children andeverything else.
You know you're a potentialrisk and now you've infected 25
people and caused two deaths.
Now I don't know what thecharge minimum would be, but to
me it's the endangerment ofothers.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
And especially again, that maternity ward.
You're talking about people whoare already at high risk
because we're talking aboutinfants, not just children, but
infants who are newborns.
You know, pregnant moms areimmunocompromised.
We know this.
I don't know how much they knewthen, but these are the people
who you definitely don't wantgetting sick with this.
It'd be like her working at anursing home Same type of an
(20:28):
idea.
So at this point, since sheknows that she's a carrier, then
you know it gets that questionof intent right.
To me it's like a negligenthomicide, because she knows and
has been informed.
You have this.
This is a risk.
If you do this, then peoplecould die.
She did it anyway.
People got sick and people died.
So to me it's like a negligenthomicide.
(20:49):
She didn't mean to kill them,but she also wasn't doing what
she needed to do to prevent themfrom getting sick and dying I
mean, another good example ofthis was like in the 1980s and
early 90s with hiv.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Like when you had sex workers and then knew they had
the disease, but that was theironly way to make money.
They had to make the decisiondo I take the risk and go back
out?
And?
And actually a better exampleof that is in pornography.
A lot of porn stars gotinfected because one or two
(21:21):
people had the disease, but thatwas the only way they knew how
to make money and it kind ofspread and the industry didn't
want to shut things down.
There's a whole documentaryabout this.
I don't know how this justpopped in my head, but when I
worked in HIV services, a littlebit like I'd watched this
documentary and what they weretalking about was that this was
all they knew how to make money.
This was their only way to makemoney, but they knew if they
had HIV or reported that theyhad HIV or AIDS, they were done
(21:45):
Like you're out of the industry,so they didn't tell anybody.
And then, lo and behold, likedozens, if not a lot more,
people ended up spreading thisdisease.
And that's kind of the samething she's doing is I have to
make that choice between livingand possibly infecting other
people, not realizing therepercussions of your damning
people to death.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Right, and I think for her it was even more
complicated because she didn'tfeel sick Like I think, at least
with HIV, I think there wasmore of an understanding where
if you got the diagnosis, youknew what it meant.
You knew, you know, like Imight not feel bad, but that
doesn't mean I don't have it,whereas with her, I think that
medically, where we weretechnology and information-wise,
it was, I think, harder for herto wrap her mind around.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
You're telling me that I'm sick.
I'm not sick, yes, but on theother side, she had to have seen
the pattern, right.
Like we're showing you, allthese people are linked and the
only common thing is you.
Yeah, it's like there are 10people hit like by a baseball.
The only common link is they'reall in this baseball stadium.
Maybe we need to put a net upto protect people, right, and
(22:56):
it's the same thing.
She's just not catching on that.
There's this common themethat's happening and she's at
the center of it.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Exactly so.
Following that outbreak atSloan Maternity Hospital, mary's
arrested for the second timeand she's returned to North
Brother Island for what will beher final and longest quarantine
.
And this second quarantine endsup lasting 23 years, from 1915
until her death in 1938.
(23:21):
During that time, she's allowedoccasional supervised day trips
to the mainland, but largelyremained isolated.
While she was quarantined, sheworked as a technician at the
Riverside Hospital Laboratory inNorth Brother Island, preparing
medical tests.
This arrangement allowed her tocontinue.
This arrangement allowed her tocontribute to the hospital's
(23:44):
operations while remaining underclose supervision.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So it's I mean she's just under arrest.
I mean, again it comes back toshe made to appoint that choice,
like you were told you had tosee.
You made an agreement with thestate that they would release
you from the institution if youagreed not to do these things
and you went, did it anyway, andpeople have now died so
unfortunately.
Uh, as the years passed,malone's health began to decline
(24:09):
and on christmas morning, 1932,she's found paralyzed on the
floor of her college, havingsuffered a stroke.
She's moved to RiversideHospital on North Brother Island
where she lives for the nextsix years.
On November 11, 1938, at theage of 69, mary Malone dies from
pneumonia.
(24:29):
Her body is quickly removed andburied in St Raymond's Cemetery
in the Bronx.
Not only nine people attendedher funeral, a stark reflection
of her isolation, even in death.
Now I will have to say I'm kindof surprised in this fact that
they quickly buried her and verysurprised that they didn't take
her to do medical testing on.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Maybe they had already gotten all the
information they could.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
At least there's part of me that at least she got
that piece.
Yeah, like you know, theyforced her in this, they did
this to her, maybe something orsomebody somewhere said you know
what.
We've done enough harm to thiswoman, like, let's at least let
her be at peace, and it may alsohelp that she was Catholic.
Right, I mean be at peace.
And it may also help that shewas catholic, probably.
I mean, okay, that's a bigassumption which I am going to
apologize that I assume that allirish people are catholic,
(25:16):
that's not.
But it's probably a goodassumption that she was catholic
or raised catholic.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
So they would have hopefully given her that right
to at least be at peace well,and she was buried at saint
raymond's cemetery, so maybethat you know again the
indication of whether or notshe's Catholic, if she was at.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
St.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Raymond's Cemetery as opposed to.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yes, and at that time definitely you would have had
to been Catholic to be buried ata Catholic cemetery.
So ha, it wasn't discrimination, it was truth.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
So her story doesn't end with her death.
Her case becomes a landmark inthe public health field and
because she's the first knowninstance of a healthy carrier
being forcibly quarantined, itraises a lot of significant
ethical and legal questions thatwe continue to debate, even
through to today, which we sawall through the COVID.
(26:11):
Do people have to wear masks?
Do people have to quarantine?
Are we allowed to say you'renot allowed to have gatherings
of more than this many peopleindoors?
Those were all questions thatcame up.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Well, and we've seen it even with HIV and AIDS today
Like there's been discriminatorypolicies and laws that have
tried to be passed where, likeif you had HIV and you spit on
somebody, that you could beprosecuted for attempted crimes
or something, or it could be anenhancer to an assault, like on
a police officer, but not takinginto account the science that
(26:43):
it can't be transmitted that way.
So you're really punishingpeople for having a disease
instead of more science-basedpublic health policies.
So this kind of was one ofthose that really brought
attention to these things andhow public health can work with
people and create programs tohelp people return to life,
(27:04):
educationally ready, to go backout into society and protect
them and the people around themthe term typhoid Mary.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
I'm sure most people have heard of that.
Many people might not realizethat this is where the term had
originated, but it enters commonuse at that point in time to
describe anyone who isunknowingly spreading disease or
misfortune.
And this linguistic legacydemonstrates this lasting
impression that her story hashad on popular culture.
(27:37):
I know, even as a kid, when yougo to the birthday party and
one person you know would feelsick and you say, oh, don't
bring them, they're going to bethe typhoid Mary and get every
other kid at the birthday partysick.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yes, I've heard that and used it.
So now I'm going to be honest,like I'm probably not after this
episode, because I feel reallybad for this, for her, like A,
just the life she had, like itis sad, like and all, just
because of what you were bornwith.
Like, again, you do have tokind of put a little bit back on
(28:07):
her.
She made the choices she did,but looking back, I just feel
like bad for her and it's sadthat she felt that, you know,
and the only option she did havelike there was really not.
She had to do that because Iwas the only source for her to
maybe make a little bit of money.
And now she is forever going tobe known as typhoid Mary, not
(28:28):
Mary Malone, not the Irishimmigrant that came here for a
chance.
She's just going to be known asassociation with spreading
diseases across differentcountries and areas and parties
and gatherings and schools andeverything else.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
But they don't even know what her actual impact is,
because you know they attributedthose two deaths to her, but
it's estimated that she infectedbetween 51 and 122 people.
They don't know how many peopleshe actually got infected and
you know.
As far as the deaths, you knowthere was three confirmed but
(29:03):
unconfirmed.
They've had estimates as up asmany as 50 people that they've
estimated died because ofinteractions with her.
So, even though it looks morelimited in what we're talking
about, that we know of, therecould be a lot more stuff that
happened because of her thatjust couldn't be proven.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, and I think that that goes back to just to a
point her negligence.
You know anything before themoment they said we know you
have this she's not responsiblefor, not by meant guilt, not by
mint guilt, but when you get tothe so, anything before she knew
(29:42):
innocence, I give her that.
But once you knew anythingafter that, she has to be taken
responsibility for.
And I think a public healthlaws have developed from this,
even if not directly, butholding people accountable for
spreading infections.
But at the same time almostluckily, she wasn't prosecuted
for something because she was atthat point knowingly putting
(30:05):
other people at risk of injuryor bodily harm.
I mean, I don't know, maybe anassault charge could have fit
there because she knowingly wascausing people physical damage.
I don't know, you know a lotbetter than I do.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Usually assault involves some type of a touching
, though I don't know.
You know a lot better than I do.
Usually assault involves sometype of a touching, though I
don't know, maybe more of apoisoning type thing.
I don't know.
Criminal negligence, I think,would be the where to go with
that that there you go.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, I mean she's.
I mean, either way, she wasgoing to be institutionalized.
So I just feel it again, likethe social worker in me just
feels some before.
But malone's story inspiredlike the various cultural
references.
Marvel Comics created asupervillain named Typhoid Mary
and her life story inspiredworks like the 2013 novel Fever
(30:49):
Again, probably not the nicestway to remember somebody, but on
the flip side, we have to goback that she willingly, um went
back to an industry that sheknew was going to infect people.
So as we kind of finish up thisepisode and look at the life of
mary malone uh, malone we'releft with more questions and
(31:10):
kind of answers like was she avictim of circumstance?
Um, I don't think we reallyhave to question she was a
public health threat?
But there definitely was apublic health threat, but there
definitely was a victim ofcircumstance, and that she
didn't have a lot of options inthat time period.
Her case continues to sparkethical debates.
We're not really having adebate right now when we're
talking.
I think we're kind of on thesame pattern.
(31:31):
Um, some argue she wasresponsive for the deaths she
caused.
I'm kind of in that theory,like she knew what.
She was responsible for thedeaths she caused.
I'm kind of in that theory,like she knew what she was doing
, even unknowingly Well,unknowingly before.
But once she knew, she'sdefinitely responsible.
And there's others that thinkthat her forced quarantine was a
violation of her personalrights.
(31:52):
Again, I think when you madethe choice to return and you'd
made an agreement did not goback to that industry and you
did, and 25 people get infectedand two die, maybe more died.
You've lost that.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Which I think more on that side they could argue the
primary quarantine, like whenthey first took her into custody
, when they first removed her.
Because I think you're right,after she makes the agreement,
you've made the agreement, youmade your bed.
Now it's like a contract youhave to honor what you promised
to do.
But, like the first quarantine,what due process was she
provided?
(32:25):
How did they come to thedecision that she could be sent
off to this island, you know,was she given an attorney to
represent her?
Was this just some healthofficial who said, okay, that's
it, take her out there?
Or was there a judge?
Obviously there's no jury who'smaking the decision that she
needs to be quarantined.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, no, I mean I agree Like you're taking
somebody's autonomy at thatpoint.
It's not until you prove itAgain.
You're holding for three yearsdoing testing.
I mean you've turned her into alab rat.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
That's exactly what she complained about.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, and there I think, if you're looking at it
from a criminal justicestandpoint which you're getting
into because you're kind of to apoint putting this person in
isolation in prison is almostthe minority report effect.
There's like the pre-crimetheory they didn't know she had
it, they suspected, but they.
There's like the pre-crimetheory they didn't know she had
it, they suspected, but theystill held her until they could
prove it.
(33:20):
So we think you may commit arobbery, so we're going to hold
you until you do somethingcriminal, but since we've got
you locked up, you won't do it.
But you didn't do so.
I think we didn't know you weregoing to do it.
So there's just a lot ofquestions I have and I think we
need to continue to have thoseconversations because we're more
and more, unfortunately, withglobalization and we talked
(33:41):
about this during COVID andwe're talking about it now with
kind of all these differentdiseases that are starting to
pop up and spread again that weneed to have educational
programs, as we have, but wealso as a society need to like,
not just refute, the sciencebecause we don't like what it is
or it's coming from a group ofpeople we don't like, but
(34:03):
instead be safe and err on theside of caution, because we
don't want to kill people orinjure people or get people sick
because of our own ignoranceand or focused on what we
believe is our rights over therights of other people to not
have to get sick or die.
So I think that's what advocacyis really important about.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
And I think it's also interesting, when you look at
different countries anddifferent cultures, how these
different aspects work andcombine.
As far as in a lot of the Asiancountries, they mask.
They mask all winter.
If they have the flu, itdoesn't matter, it doesn't have
to be something that's a majorillness.
If you're sick, you mask.
And it's that socialresponsibility of taking care of
(34:48):
the community.
I do this because I care aboutyou.
I'm not going to be selfish anddo what feels comfortable for
me.
I'm going to mask so that Idon't get you sick.
And it's just culturaldifferences.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah, I think it definitely goes from that view
that you have one group thatbelieves that it's my job to
care about society and then theflip side of well, it's
society's job to allow me to dowhatever I want Exactly
society's job to allow me to dowhatever I want, exactly.
Basically, that what I've seenmore and more of of fuck you,
(35:22):
it's about me, and like thereare people now that like that's
bumper stickers and t-shirtslike fuck everybody, I'm an
asshole.
I think that very much morespeaks to kind of what we're
talking about with becoming moresocially aware and caring about
other people.
Because if everybody felt thatway, how many more people you
(35:44):
know?
If she had continued that andthe government has been like,
all right, it's her freedom togo out and infect people, how
many more people would have died?
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
So eventually we kind of have to get over this
individual mentality.
In my view and I'm not tellingyou how to believe just I don't
think everybody needs to be anasshole.
I fill that gap plenty myself.
I think we just need to be morewilling to put ourselves out
there to protect other peoplesometimes.
So maybe it is that day I don'tI feel sick.
I don't go to work that daybecause I don't want to get my
(36:11):
coworkers sick, or I don't wantto get my wife or my kids sick
instead of well, fuck you, ifyou're going to hang out around
me, you deserve to get sick aswell, because I'm going to do
what I want.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
And I don't want to miss the party.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I don't want to miss the party, so everybody's going
to die.
Thank you, typhoon Mary.
So thank you for joining us forthis episode.
Until next time, stay healthy,stay informed and have a good
week.
I want to thank you all so muchfor listening to our little
podcast.
This is created with love andpassion for criminal justice and
true crime.
So if you're enjoying thepodcast, please follow us, like
(36:46):
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Downloads are important for ourgrowth, as is growing our
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(37:07):
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(37:29):
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So again, thank you for takingthe time to listen and have a
good week, thank you.
so this episode, I think, is kind of one of the
ones that starts to give theirish a bad name.
So we wanted to go withsomething again, another light
kind of light, light hearted,but very informative.
This isn't really crime as much, as kind of gets into more a
little bit of ethics, medicalissues, breakouts, what is
quarantine, what's notquarantine.
(00:59):
We're four years late of doingthis during COVID, but we didn't
exist then and we just thoughtit's kind of an interesting
story to share and to have aconversation about from some of
the dilemmas and situations thatthe individual here was put in
when she actually hadn'tcommitted any crime.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Technically we existed, not the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
That's true.
We existed.
The podcast didn't exist, so Ihave fucked this whole thing up,
so I feel like it shouldprobably start over.
But you don't have to restartthe episode, you can just cut it
.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Thanks, Dickhead.
Ah I think it's fine.
I say at this point just leaveit as it is.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
All right.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
So this week, on Deviant Crology, I'm richard,
I'm heather and we're going totalk about the story of mary
malone, also known as typhoidmary so her tragic story tragic
for a lot of people involved,including herself begins on
September 23rd 1869 in the smalltown of Cookstown County,
(02:07):
tyroid, ireland, where Mary wasborn into a world of poverty and
limited opportunities.
Little does anyone know thatthis infant will grow up to
become one of the mostcontroversial figures in public
health history.
When her mother was pregnantwith her, her mother had typhoid
(02:27):
fever, and we don't know howmuch of an impact that has on
her future, but it's somethingthat's interesting.
As a non-doctor person, Iwonder what kind of causation
was there?
Fast forward to 1884, and at 15years old, mary, like many of
her other compatriots, set sailfor America.
Leaving behind the economichardships of rural Ireland, she
(02:51):
arrives in New York City, to abustling metropolis teeming with
opportunity and danger in equalmeasure.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The reason you're seeing all of these Irish
immigrants coming to the UnitedStates is just the poverty
that's being put on them by theEnglish government and just the
English rule that was going onat the time and the persecution
of the Catholics that were there.
That saw America as a newstarting ground.
(03:20):
It was kind of again seen as aland of opportunity.
But there are many great songsabout like the hills of America
and what they saw is the greatopportunity only to come to a
country that treated them asthird class citizens, making it
hard for them to find any typeof employment or get out of
poverty, which unfortunatelykind of becomes the basis of
(03:42):
what happens to young Mary.
So Mary starts her Americanjourney as a domestic servant,
but her culinary skills soon sether apart.
By the turn of the centuriesshe's established herself as a
cook for wealthy families in theNew York City area.
It's a position of respect,offering financial stability and
a step up in the domesticservice hierarchy.
(04:03):
So she goes from kind of beingthis maid to being able to cook.
I'm gonna say it's kind of oddbecause I, you know, I eat irish
food like irish pubs.
I drink, you know, my fairshare of irish made liquors, but
they're not exactly known forlike culinary skills, like
shepherd's pie, um, corned beefand cabbage not what I would
consider like high class, uhfood.
It's amazing but it's not highclass.
(04:25):
But yet somehow she's likereally honed her culinary skills
to the point where thearistocratic elite in New York
are like we want to hire her,which has put her on this new
level of being able to at leastmake some financial movement for
herself in the right direction.
But as Mary moves from kitchento kitchen, a sinister pattern
(04:47):
begins to emerge.
So between 1900 and 1907,typhoid fever follows in her
wake, striking down familymembers and servants alike in
the households where she works.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Around 1906, we find ourselves in Oyster Bay, long
Island.
The wealthy Warren family hasrented a summer home and they're
looking forward to a season ofrelaxation.
Instead, they're hit by adevastating outbreak of typhoid
fever.
Six out of the 11 people in thehousehold fall ill.
At that point, george Soper, asanitary engineer and expert in
(05:22):
disease outbreaks, begins hisinvestigation to find the source
of the infection.
Initially he suspectscontaminated clams, but as he
digs deeper, his attention turnsto the family's recently hired
cook, mary Mallon.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
His investigation uncovers a chilling pattern In
seven out of eight householdswhere Mary had worked over the
past decade, typhoid outbreakshad occurred, and the puzzle
pieces are starting to fall intoplace so I mean a I give them
props that they see this as ahealth emergency, like we're
talking early 1900s, so likeyou're actually putting people
(05:58):
to investigate this and he'ssmart enough to go through and
start looking at the backgroundof who's coming into the
household.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So that's kind of impressive actually for that
time period which one of thesources I read said that they
had rented that house and theperson who owned the house was
worried that they would get abad reputation as being a house
where there was illness.
So they had hired or somehowgot him to be hired to
investigate this because theywanted to basically clear the
(06:27):
house of any nefariousreputation.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Like we're renting this out.
This is our moneymaker.
We are not the center of alldisease here.
Exactly so, in March of 1907,soper tracks down Mary Malone to
her current workplace, whereshe's at a Park Avenue penthouse
.
So she's moved to a differentfamily.
Now what follows is a scenestraight out of a crime thriller
(06:53):
, which is perfect for a truecrime podcast.
Soper confronts Malone,requesting samples for urine,
feces and blood for analysis.
I don't know.
Some random dude shows up.
Like there's not like this timeperiod, there's not really good
identification.
He's just like yeah, I'm fromthe public health sanitation
department.
I need you to pee in this cup.
Give me your poop and bloodsample.
I probably would be like nah,bro, like who the hell are you,
(07:18):
especially a man approaching ayoung Irish immigrant woman.
So Malone, feeling accused andinsulted, reacts violently.
She threatens Soper with acarving fork, forcing him to
beat a hasty retreat.
So yeah, I mean, I'm sorry,that sounds like it would be
creepy.
I wasn't in that situation.
But a dude shows up saying giveme your body fluids.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
I'm sure it was.
And, on the flip side, heprobably would have had a better
result if he had been a creeper, if he had just been like, hey,
I'm a really big weirdo andI'll pay you 50 bucks for some
urine and some pee.
She probably would have beenlike, all right, instead of
saying I think you're makingpeople sick, now give me your
pee and your poo.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah there's a government official, though he
didn't have 50 bucks probablyhe's probably underpaid yeah she
started with a knife.
He's like this is not worth mytime going back to more people,
but actually he's undeterred.
So soper compiles a five-yearemployment history of malone.
The evidence is damning, though.
Out of eight families that shehad worked for, members of seven
(08:22):
claim to have contractedtyphoid fever.
So soper's efforts to obtainsamples from malone continue to
be unsuccessful, which that'skind of vague like that kind of
makes it sound like he's hidingin toilets and stuff like trying
to catch samples, and that justseems kind of weird the way it
was worded in different ways Iread it.
But all right, whatever worksfor him.
He even offers to write a bookabout her and give her all the
(08:46):
royalties, but alone remainsuncooperative.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Which I think again, you know you say I'll write a
book about you and give you someroyalties.
That seems very speculative innature.
How do I know you're going tofollow through with writing a
book?
And even if you do, who's goingto buy it?
And even if they do, how am Igoing to get this money?
It seems kind of far-fetched.
Again, I think he would havebeen better off with the you
know, here's 10 bucks pee in mycup for me.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And that kind of like sounds like the early 1900s
version of the.
I'm a Nigerian prince, justsend me your stuff and magically
a million dollars repeal inyour bank account.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah, if I was a young woman, which I can't
imagine you two can, I can't.
Yeah, I'm not cool with thisLike this.
Everything this guy's doing Amakes him seem like more of a
stockish creeper, because hejust keeps showing up asking for
your body fluids.
And again, how do I know you'rereally who you say you are?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
And he keeps saying that you're sick and you're
making other people sick.
I feel fine, I'm healthy.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I don't know what you're talking about.
You're a weirdo, get out of myface.
Yes, and that's the big thing,is that they're accusing her of
this.
But everything we'd known atthis point medically is this is
communicable disease.
Here are all the symptoms.
If you get it, you have it.
But she's never been sick.
So why I'm not going to giveyou this stuff?
Because I think that, right,there is another factor in that
is she's not feeling sick.
So it just seems like thisguy's creeped.
(10:08):
Like I'm not sick.
You're telling me I'm sick, I'mcarrying this disease and you
want all my body fluids andstuff, like something just comes
off wrong to me.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
But at the same time I have to admire her because she
does tell him no.
And she's, you know, an Irishimmigrant young woman.
And here's this presumablywhite guy in authority who shows
up and says give me thesethings.
And she says, no, oh, she's gotsome strong will there to stand
up to him and say screw you,I'm not giving it to you.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
That's the power of the Irish.
That's right, like theanti-government, and I wonder if
that played anything into itAgain, like that's super
speculative.
So but the coming from Ireland,you're very distrustful of
government officials andeverything and you know all the
suspicion that would have beenaround the way the Irish were
already being treated in 1900.
And suddenly he's a governmentofficial a government official
(10:54):
quote unquote showing up sayingI need your body fluids.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
So once he can't convince her to give up those
bodily fluids, he turns to thereal government officials, the
New York City health authorities, and they send out Dr S
Josephine Baker, who is anadvocate for public health, and
she approaches Mary, you know.
Hopefully better results, butnope, she's unsuccessful as well
(11:18):
in obtaining the samples.
So in 1907, the city officiallytakes this drastic action where
Mary is forcibly arrested inthe interest of public health,
taken to a hospital where sheattempts to escape, but
eventually they're able to run atest and find out that she is
positive as a carrier for thissalmonella that causes typhoid
(11:41):
fever.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
That causes typhoid fever.
So a like just the fact thatshe's asymptomatic, like in
presenting, I think would havebeen a medical like so many
doctors would have jumped allover that to try and understand
that better.
Cause, from what it sounds like, the things I've read about
this and I've read some stuffabout her, a when I was in EMT
and stuff, cause it's just oneof those interesting things.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
But then all the way up till even during covid, like
of course she came back aroundum, and then also talking about
like 100 years since the lastbig outbreak, um, it was very
interesting that, yeah, thethought of somebody who was
asymptomatic, like we didn'tknow that you could be a carrier
and not infect other people theresults at that point in time
are really shocking becausepeople, like you said, didn't
(12:23):
really think about asymptomaticcarriers and she's identified as
the first asymptomatic carrierof salmonella that causes
typhoid fever in the UnitedStates and she had high levels
of that typhoid bacilli in herstool sample, despite showing no
symptoms of the disease at allherself.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So this leads to what will be known as her first
quarantine.
So Mary is quarantined on NorthBrother Island in 1907 and she
is about to begin a three-yearperiod of isolation that will
change her life forever.
So during her confinement, maryis subjected to repeated
interviews and tests.
(13:05):
Health authorities discovermassive amounts of typhoid
bacteria in her samples,indicating that her gallbladder
is the source of the infection.
So Malone vehemently deniesbeing a carrier of typhoid,
though, like she's never beensick, she doesn't feel any
symptoms and I mean there's gotto be part of her that's willing
to resist this because a, as wesee, she's combined for three
(13:26):
years, but the only opportunitythat the irish really had at
this point were these servanttype jobs, especially for women
doing it from ireland.
So to damn her with this andput that on her would take away
her entire possibility to makemoney and really put her into
poverty.
So so when offered the optionto have her gallbladder
surgically removed, she refuses.
(13:48):
Early 1900s, you want to cut meopen?
No, I could understand that.
It's worth noting that at thetime gallbladder remover was a
dangerous procedure with a highmortality rate.
So I'm not sick, I'm notfeeling sick, but you want me to
go through this potentiallydeadly surgery for something I
don't have.
Now, looking back, like I canunderstand it, like we've damned
(14:09):
this woman with, like the wholeyou're typhoid Mary and
everything, but when you lookedat the historical context of
what she faced and the optionsthat are given to her, it was
basically poverty, death, death,poverty, institutionalization.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Which, as somebody who had their gallbladder taken
out, I don't think that I wouldgo in and have it taken out just
because you tell me I'm gettingother people sick and I feel
perfectly fine either.
It's not very, not very fun,not a vacation.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And again you're.
You're being asked to trust thegovernment and trust medical
doctors when you come from aplace that really teaches you
distrust of government officials.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yes, and so, as this whole debate is going on, there
are legal battles going on andin 1909, she attempts
(15:12):
hexamethylene tetramine, whichshe said was threatening to
damage her kidneys.
But from what I understand andwhat I looked up, it said again
I'm not a doctor that it appearsto be something that's used to
treat UTIs and it's analternative to antibiotics and
it basically works in theacidity of the urine, but if
it's in an alkaline environmentit is ineffective and it also is
(15:38):
the base component for C4,which was kind of interesting.
So the complaint ends up beingdismissed by the New York
Supreme Court, but the casesparks significant public debate
and ethical discussions andsome of the medical experts are
questioning the necessity of herbeing forced into quarantine
and arguing that she could betaught to manage her condition
(16:01):
without isolation and withoutgetting other people sick.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And I mean this does get into so many ethical,
constitutional issues becauseshe's not at this point
committed a crime, but you'reforcing her into quote-unquote
quarantine in an institutionwhere she's not allowed to leave
that sounds, and you're forcingher to give you samples and do
medical tests.
(16:25):
That to me sounds likeimprisonment.
So I guess maybe back then itwas a little bit different than
the constitution didn't upholdbecause she was an Irish
immigrant.
I don't know how you wouldjustify taking away somebody's
freedom, except that we'vealways kind of had that
exception for the safety ofothers.
So I don't know.
(16:45):
To me it's just, I understandit but I don't agree with it.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
And I think maybe they could have likened it to a
mental health hold, where youhaven't committed a crime with
that either.
But they separate you and putyou in an institution because
you're a danger to yourself orothers.
Maybe it was that same type ofidea You're a danger to yourself
or others, therefore, we'regoing to put you in this medical
facility.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, it's one of those.
I get it, I just don't like it.
It feels wrong.
Yes, Like and I agree, though,to a point there comes to
they're.
They're asking her to work withthem Like and but like they
these two doctors, miltonRosenaw and Charles Chapin are
are working to try and say thatthey don't think the quarantine
(17:31):
is necessary and there are waysto manage her condition.
But you have to be willing toteach her that.
But she also has to be willingto do that and, as we'll learn
as we're about to get into thisnext section, that kind of seems
to be a problem.
She's just an uncooperative toa point ass in this as well.
She's not an innocent bystander.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
you didn't know she had it, but once she finds out
she's still not willing to doanything about it she's in
complete denial yes, andcompletely uncooperative so in
february of 1910, after nearlythree years of being quarantined
, she's released under thecondition that she will never
work as a cook again, and sheagrees to initially find work
(18:18):
doing laundry.
And unfortunately for her, whenyou're doing laundry it pays
about half the rate of what itwould pay to be a cook.
So this isn't just a minor stepdown, this is a major step down
for her minor step down.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
This is a major step down for her, and not just the
step down in that happy.
But because she was so good,there was a potential as a cook
to move up.
More is the reputation thatcould have brought her into
better people's service, andsomebody may have heard of her
skills as a cook and almostpoached her and made her an
offer for more money, so you'redamning her to even more chance
of poverty Again.
When we're looking at where shecame from, her Irish background
(18:57):
, language, the way she looked,she was already going to be
restricted, and now you'retaking that away.
And it sounds like, though,that they're trying to give her
the tools, though, and she's notbeing cooperative, and that
happens again.
Next, because the story doesn'tend there.
Struggling financially due tothose low wages, mary eventually
(19:18):
returns to cooking undervarious aliases, such as Miss
Brown.
This decision will have direconsequences, unfortunately so.
In 1915, while working as acook for the Sloan Maternity
Hospital, under a false name,malone is linked to a typhoid
outbreak that infects 25 people,resulting in two deaths.
Now, in my theory, now she'scrossed the line right now I
(19:43):
mean a.
She chose a maternity hospital,as you said when we were kind of
writing this up and talkingabout it.
You're endangering children andeverything else.
You know you're a potentialrisk and now you've infected 25
people and caused two deaths.
Now I don't know what thecharge minimum would be, but to
me it's the endangerment ofothers.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
And especially again, that maternity ward.
You're talking about people whoare already at high risk
because we're talking aboutinfants, not just children, but
infants who are newborns.
You know, pregnant moms areimmunocompromised.
We know this.
I don't know how much they knewthen, but these are the people
who you definitely don't wantgetting sick with this.
It'd be like her working at anursing home Same type of an
(20:28):
idea.
So at this point, since sheknows that she's a carrier, then
you know it gets that questionof intent right.
To me it's like a negligenthomicide, because she knows and
has been informed.
You have this.
This is a risk.
If you do this, then peoplecould die.
She did it anyway.
People got sick and people died.
So to me it's like a negligenthomicide.
(20:49):
She didn't mean to kill them,but she also wasn't doing what
she needed to do to prevent themfrom getting sick and dying I
mean, another good example ofthis was like in the 1980s and
early 90s with hiv.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Like when you had sex workers and then knew they had
the disease, but that was theironly way to make money.
They had to make the decisiondo I take the risk and go back
out?
And?
And actually a better exampleof that is in pornography.
A lot of porn stars gotinfected because one or two
(21:21):
people had the disease, but thatwas the only way they knew how
to make money and it kind ofspread and the industry didn't
want to shut things down.
There's a whole documentaryabout this.
I don't know how this justpopped in my head, but when I
worked in HIV services, a littlebit like I'd watched this
documentary and what they weretalking about was that this was
all they knew how to make money.
This was their only way to makemoney, but they knew if they
had HIV or reported that theyhad HIV or AIDS, they were done
(21:45):
Like you're out of the industry,so they didn't tell anybody.
And then, lo and behold, likedozens, if not a lot more,
people ended up spreading thisdisease.
And that's kind of the samething she's doing is I have to
make that choice between livingand possibly infecting other
people, not realizing therepercussions of your damning
people to death.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Right, and I think for her it was even more
complicated because she didn'tfeel sick Like I think, at least
with HIV, I think there wasmore of an understanding where
if you got the diagnosis, youknew what it meant.
You knew, you know, like Imight not feel bad, but that
doesn't mean I don't have it,whereas with her, I think that
medically, where we weretechnology and information-wise,
it was, I think, harder for herto wrap her mind around.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
You're telling me that I'm sick.
I'm not sick, yes, but on theother side, she had to have seen
the pattern, right.
Like we're showing you, allthese people are linked and the
only common thing is you.
Yeah, it's like there are 10people hit like by a baseball.
The only common link is they'reall in this baseball stadium.
Maybe we need to put a net upto protect people, right, and
(22:56):
it's the same thing.
She's just not catching on that.
There's this common themethat's happening and she's at
the center of it.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Exactly so.
Following that outbreak atSloan Maternity Hospital, mary's
arrested for the second timeand she's returned to North
Brother Island for what will beher final and longest quarantine
.
And this second quarantine endsup lasting 23 years, from 1915
until her death in 1938.
(23:21):
During that time, she's allowedoccasional supervised day trips
to the mainland, but largelyremained isolated.
While she was quarantined, sheworked as a technician at the
Riverside Hospital Laboratory inNorth Brother Island, preparing
medical tests.
This arrangement allowed her tocontinue.
This arrangement allowed her tocontribute to the hospital's
(23:44):
operations while remaining underclose supervision.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So it's I mean she's just under arrest.
I mean, again it comes back toshe made to appoint that choice,
like you were told you had tosee.
You made an agreement with thestate that they would release
you from the institution if youagreed not to do these things
and you went, did it anyway, andpeople have now died so
unfortunately.
Uh, as the years passed,malone's health began to decline
(24:09):
and on christmas morning, 1932,she's found paralyzed on the
floor of her college, havingsuffered a stroke.
She's moved to RiversideHospital on North Brother Island
where she lives for the nextsix years.
On November 11, 1938, at theage of 69, mary Malone dies from
pneumonia.
(24:29):
Her body is quickly removed andburied in St Raymond's Cemetery
in the Bronx.
Not only nine people attendedher funeral, a stark reflection
of her isolation, even in death.
Now I will have to say I'm kindof surprised in this fact that
they quickly buried her and verysurprised that they didn't take
her to do medical testing on.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Maybe they had already gotten all the
information they could.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
At least there's part of me that at least she got
that piece.
Yeah, like you know, theyforced her in this, they did
this to her, maybe something orsomebody somewhere said you know
what.
We've done enough harm to thiswoman, like, let's at least let
her be at peace, and it may alsohelp that she was Catholic.
Right, I mean be at peace.
And it may also help that shewas catholic, probably.
I mean, okay, that's a bigassumption which I am going to
apologize that I assume that allirish people are catholic,
(25:16):
that's not.
But it's probably a goodassumption that she was catholic
or raised catholic.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
So they would have hopefully given her that right
to at least be at peace well,and she was buried at saint
raymond's cemetery, so maybethat you know again the
indication of whether or notshe's Catholic, if she was at.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
St.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Raymond's Cemetery as opposed to.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yes, and at that time definitely you would have had
to been Catholic to be buried ata Catholic cemetery.
So ha, it wasn't discrimination, it was truth.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
So her story doesn't end with her death.
Her case becomes a landmark inthe public health field and
because she's the first knowninstance of a healthy carrier
being forcibly quarantined, itraises a lot of significant
ethical and legal questions thatwe continue to debate, even
through to today, which we sawall through the COVID.
(26:11):
Do people have to wear masks?
Do people have to quarantine?
Are we allowed to say you'renot allowed to have gatherings
of more than this many peopleindoors?
Those were all questions thatcame up.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Well, and we've seen it even with HIV and AIDS today
Like there's been discriminatorypolicies and laws that have
tried to be passed where, likeif you had HIV and you spit on
somebody, that you could beprosecuted for attempted crimes
or something, or it could be anenhancer to an assault, like on
a police officer, but not takinginto account the science that
(26:43):
it can't be transmitted that way.
So you're really punishingpeople for having a disease
instead of more science-basedpublic health policies.
So this kind of was one ofthose that really brought
attention to these things andhow public health can work with
people and create programs tohelp people return to life,
(27:04):
educationally ready, to go backout into society and protect
them and the people around themthe term typhoid Mary.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
I'm sure most people have heard of that.
Many people might not realizethat this is where the term had
originated, but it enters commonuse at that point in time to
describe anyone who isunknowingly spreading disease or
misfortune.
And this linguistic legacydemonstrates this lasting
impression that her story hashad on popular culture.
(27:37):
I know, even as a kid, when yougo to the birthday party and
one person you know would feelsick and you say, oh, don't
bring them, they're going to bethe typhoid Mary and get every
other kid at the birthday partysick.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yes, I've heard that and used it.
So now I'm going to be honest,like I'm probably not after this
episode, because I feel reallybad for this, for her, like A,
just the life she had, like itis sad, like and all, just
because of what you were bornwith.
Like, again, you do have tokind of put a little bit back on
(28:07):
her.
She made the choices she did,but looking back, I just feel
like bad for her and it's sadthat she felt that, you know,
and the only option she did havelike there was really not.
She had to do that because Iwas the only source for her to
maybe make a little bit of money.
And now she is forever going tobe known as typhoid Mary, not
(28:28):
Mary Malone, not the Irishimmigrant that came here for a
chance.
She's just going to be known asassociation with spreading
diseases across differentcountries and areas and parties
and gatherings and schools andeverything else.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
But they don't even know what her actual impact is,
because you know they attributedthose two deaths to her, but
it's estimated that she infectedbetween 51 and 122 people.
They don't know how many peopleshe actually got infected and
you know.
As far as the deaths, you knowthere was three confirmed but
(29:03):
unconfirmed.
They've had estimates as up asmany as 50 people that they've
estimated died because ofinteractions with her.
So, even though it looks morelimited in what we're talking
about, that we know of, therecould be a lot more stuff that
happened because of her thatjust couldn't be proven.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, and I think that that goes back to just to a
point her negligence.
You know anything before themoment they said we know you
have this she's not responsiblefor, not by meant guilt, not by
mint guilt, but when you get tothe so, anything before she knew
(29:42):
innocence, I give her that.
But once you knew anythingafter that, she has to be taken
responsibility for.
And I think a public healthlaws have developed from this,
even if not directly, butholding people accountable for
spreading infections.
But at the same time almostluckily, she wasn't prosecuted
for something because she was atthat point knowingly putting
(30:05):
other people at risk of injuryor bodily harm.
I mean, I don't know, maybe anassault charge could have fit
there because she knowingly wascausing people physical damage.
I don't know, you know a lotbetter than I do.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Usually assault involves some type of a touching
, though I don't know.
You know a lot better than I do.
Usually assault involves sometype of a touching, though I
don't know, maybe more of apoisoning type thing.
I don't know.
Criminal negligence, I think,would be the where to go with
that that there you go.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, I mean she's.
I mean, either way, she wasgoing to be institutionalized.
So I just feel it again, likethe social worker in me just
feels some before.
But malone's story inspiredlike the various cultural
references.
Marvel Comics created asupervillain named Typhoid Mary
and her life story inspiredworks like the 2013 novel Fever
(30:49):
Again, probably not the nicestway to remember somebody, but on
the flip side, we have to goback that she willingly, um went
back to an industry that sheknew was going to infect people.
So as we kind of finish up thisepisode and look at the life of
mary malone uh, malone we'releft with more questions and
(31:10):
kind of answers like was she avictim of circumstance?
Um, I don't think we reallyhave to question she was a
public health threat?
But there definitely was apublic health threat, but there
definitely was a victim ofcircumstance, and that she
didn't have a lot of options inthat time period.
Her case continues to sparkethical debates.
We're not really having adebate right now when we're
talking.
I think we're kind of on thesame pattern.
(31:31):
Um, some argue she wasresponsive for the deaths she
caused.
I'm kind of in that theory,like she knew what.
She was responsible for thedeaths she caused.
I'm kind of in that theory,like she knew what she was doing
, even unknowingly Well,unknowingly before.
But once she knew, she'sdefinitely responsible.
And there's others that thinkthat her forced quarantine was a
violation of her personalrights.
(31:52):
Again, I think when you madethe choice to return and you'd
made an agreement did not goback to that industry and you
did, and 25 people get infectedand two die, maybe more died.
You've lost that.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Which I think more on that side they could argue the
primary quarantine, like whenthey first took her into custody
, when they first removed her.
Because I think you're right,after she makes the agreement,
you've made the agreement, youmade your bed.
Now it's like a contract youhave to honor what you promised
to do.
But, like the first quarantine,what due process was she
provided?
(32:25):
How did they come to thedecision that she could be sent
off to this island, you know,was she given an attorney to
represent her?
Was this just some healthofficial who said, okay, that's
it, take her out there?
Or was there a judge?
Obviously there's no jury who'smaking the decision that she
needs to be quarantined.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, no, I mean I agree Like you're taking
somebody's autonomy at thatpoint.
It's not until you prove itAgain.
You're holding for three yearsdoing testing.
I mean you've turned her into alab rat.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
That's exactly what she complained about.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, and there I think, if you're looking at it
from a criminal justicestandpoint which you're getting
into because you're kind of to apoint putting this person in
isolation in prison is almostthe minority report effect.
There's like the pre-crimetheory they didn't know she had
it, they suspected, but they.
There's like the pre-crimetheory they didn't know she had
it, they suspected, but theystill held her until they could
prove it.
(33:20):
So we think you may commit arobbery, so we're going to hold
you until you do somethingcriminal, but since we've got
you locked up, you won't do it.
But you didn't do so.
I think we didn't know you weregoing to do it.
So there's just a lot ofquestions I have and I think we
need to continue to have thoseconversations because we're more
and more, unfortunately, withglobalization and we talked
(33:41):
about this during COVID andwe're talking about it now with
kind of all these differentdiseases that are starting to
pop up and spread again that weneed to have educational
programs, as we have, but wealso as a society need to like,
not just refute, the sciencebecause we don't like what it is
or it's coming from a group ofpeople we don't like, but
(34:03):
instead be safe and err on theside of caution, because we
don't want to kill people orinjure people or get people sick
because of our own ignoranceand or focused on what we
believe is our rights over therights of other people to not
have to get sick or die.
So I think that's what advocacyis really important about.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
And I think it's also interesting, when you look at
different countries anddifferent cultures, how these
different aspects work andcombine.
As far as in a lot of the Asiancountries, they mask.
They mask all winter.
If they have the flu, itdoesn't matter, it doesn't have
to be something that's a majorillness.
If you're sick, you mask.
And it's that socialresponsibility of taking care of
(34:48):
the community.
I do this because I care aboutyou.
I'm not going to be selfish anddo what feels comfortable for
me.
I'm going to mask so that Idon't get you sick.
And it's just culturaldifferences.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah, I think it definitely goes from that view
that you have one group thatbelieves that it's my job to
care about society and then theflip side of well, it's
society's job to allow me to dowhatever I want Exactly
society's job to allow me to dowhatever I want, exactly.
Basically, that what I've seenmore and more of of fuck you,
(35:22):
it's about me, and like thereare people now that like that's
bumper stickers and t-shirtslike fuck everybody, I'm an
asshole.
I think that very much morespeaks to kind of what we're
talking about with becoming moresocially aware and caring about
other people.
Because if everybody felt thatway, how many more people you
(35:44):
know?
If she had continued that andthe government has been like,
all right, it's her freedom togo out and infect people, how
many more people would have died?
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
So eventually we kind of have to get over this
individual mentality.
In my view and I'm not tellingyou how to believe just I don't
think everybody needs to be anasshole.
I fill that gap plenty myself.
I think we just need to be morewilling to put ourselves out
there to protect other peoplesometimes.
So maybe it is that day I don'tI feel sick.
I don't go to work that daybecause I don't want to get my
(36:11):
coworkers sick, or I don't wantto get my wife or my kids sick
instead of well, fuck you, ifyou're going to hang out around
me, you deserve to get sick aswell, because I'm going to do
what I want.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
And I don't want to miss the party.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I don't want to miss the party, so everybody's going
to die.
Thank you, typhoon Mary.
So thank you for joining us forthis episode.
Until next time, stay healthy,stay informed and have a good
week.
I want to thank you all so muchfor listening to our little
podcast.
This is created with love andpassion for criminal justice and
true crime.
So if you're enjoying thepodcast, please follow us, like
(36:46):
or rate us on whatever systemyou're listening to us on,
subscribe to our podcast anddownload episodes.
Downloads are important for ourgrowth, as is growing our
listeners.
So, if you wouldn't mind, takethe time to ask your friends,
family, coworkers, tell themabout us through word of mouth,
social media.
(37:07):
I don't care if you even screamat strangers on the streets, to
help us kind of get out therewho we are.
If you're interested in learningmore, you could visit our
website atwwwdeviantcriminologycom.
There you'll find some stuffabout our backgrounds,
references, show notes for eachepisode.
You can also follow us on ourFacebook page at Deviant
(37:29):
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We also have an Instagram page,which is Deviant underscore
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