December 30, 2024 • 47 mins
Unlock the captivating world of Willie Sutton, the infamous bank robber whose charm and cunning made him a legend of his time. Discover how Sutton's non-violent approach to crime and his transformation into a folk hero offered a unique perspective on the interplay between criminality and society during the Prohibition era. We'll unravel his early life, shaped by a working-class Irish immigrant upbringing in Brooklyn, and explore how it set the stage for his audacious criminal career, marked by meticulous planning and clever disguises.
Journey through Sutton's fascinating criminal career as we uncover the cunning heists that earned him the nicknames "The Actor" and "Slick Willie." From his polite demeanor during robberies to the pivotal moments that led to increased law enforcement scrutiny, Sutton's story offers a compelling look into the mind of a gentleman robber. We'll also dive into the cycles of criminal justice reform, exploring how shifts in societal attitudes led to his release from prison and his surprising transformation into a consultant for banks and law enforcement.
Reflect on the cultural impact of Sutton's legacy, as we examine how media portrayal and music immortalized him as an anti-hero. We'll discuss the broader themes of crime, redemption, and societal perception, using Sutton's story to consider the cyclical nature of criminal justice and the cultural impact of true crime folklore. Through songs like Tom Chapin's "The Ballad of Willie Sutton," we'll explore how music continues to preserve the stories of figures like Sutton, offering a broader understanding of history and society.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
you're in your cocoon now.
You're good, all right, sowelcome to another episode.
So this time we're gonna haveat the beginning a little bit of
office sausage talk and justkind of bring up some fact, like
every once in a while you mayhear a car in the background.
That's because we're humanbeings that record in a house.
We don't have a cool studio, sosomehow a nice rural road,
(00:27):
every time we go to record anepisode, becomes the Indy 500.
So if you hear everyone's allthe vehicle noise or real weird
pause or my inability to speakEnglish, it is one of those
reasons I also want to take aminute, because we haven't done
that so far.
It's our podcast and we can dothis to like, just say like
thanks to a few people.
So one I definitely want to saythanks to Heather for doing
(00:50):
this with me, and Rachel whenshe comes back.
I want to acknowledge yourother half, scott, who has been
super supportive of this.
My wife, who I will just referto as bunny, for dealing with
this and letting me spend a lotof money on a hobby.
To Nancy, aka my daughter, whois our producer, who is now
staring at me like I am a dick.
(01:13):
I also want to acknowledge liketwo very good friends of mine,
one being Val, who I know hasbeen supportive and kind of
helpful through this, and thenalso my buddy and BFF, warren,
who has been very supportive andlistening as well from the
beginning.
So I just kind of want toacknowledge some people and
thank them for their support andmaking this all possible as
(01:34):
we're going into like 13episodes 14 episodes at this
point.
So that's that and, with thatbeing said, so I'm Richard, I'm
Heather and this week we wantedso I'm Richard, I'm Heather.
And this week we wanted to dosomething a little bit more
lighthearted.
So when Heather, rachel and Iset out to do this podcast,
really it was about kind of ourpassions, with our backgrounds
(01:56):
being in criminal justice andbeing able to take those
experiences and kind of continueat least using that knowledge
in a way to educate people andjust kind of do things with our
friends.
So yeah, most of our episodeshave been about murder or murder
adjacent, which is partiallyinfluenced by my academic and
(02:17):
professional research, which hasbeen focused on mass murder and
serial crimes, and then justkind of the true crime nature of
things murder and serial crimesand then just kind of the true
crime nature of things, like itusually does kind of go more
towards the dark issues morethan it does some of the more
light-hearted crimes that youdon't really hear about as much
(02:38):
because they don't just get theattention.
But in our research acrossmultiple episodes that we've
already done, specifically likethe John Dillinger and Eastern
State Penitentiary, there wasthis really interesting guy that
popped up whose name was WillieSutton and he's kind of this
famous, notorious bank robberthat his story just really got
(03:00):
me because of who he was, hisbackground and that across all
his crimes he never murderedanybody, he didn't assault
people, he just kind of had thisinteresting way of committing
his crimes.
So kind of a little bit aboutWillie Sutton.
So he's kind of like I said,this notorious famous bank
robber in American history.
(03:21):
He lived his life emblematic ofkind of the tumultuous world in
that early 20th century whencrime was kind of rampant, that
late 1920s going into the 1930sprohibition era.
So he was known for beingreally charismatic and he was
ingenious in the methods that hehad of evading capture, of
robbing banks.
(03:42):
And it provides a fascinatinginsight to this interplay
between criminality and societyduring his time.
Because he did become this kindof like folk hero, almost an
anti-establishment person thatpeople kind of were drawn to,
even the people he robbed, whichwe'll talk about.
But his life and crimes weredriven by a combination of
(04:03):
personal motivation and thenkind of this, this, the systemic
influences of what washappening in that time period
and it not only attracted theattention of law enforcement
obviously, but it did captivatethe public's interest in him and
what he was able to pull off.
So willie's journey into infamybegan long before his first
main life, heist, his, his earlylife and the environment where
(04:28):
he was exposed to played asignificant role in shaping kind
of who he became as a bankrobber.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Did you want me to pick up there?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Sure, I don't want to dominate all this.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So you mean to start where he was born?
Yeah, Okay, as soon as thetruck goes by.
So he was born into a workingclass family in Brooklyn, New
York, June 30th 1901.
So a long, long time ago.
And he was the fourth of fivechildren.
I'm the oldest of my family andI can say as an oldest we
(05:10):
definitely have a differentdisposition than those who are
younger siblings, and he's thefourth of fifth.
So I think that that definitelyhas something to do with his
ingenuity and thought processand the different things he's
able to pull off the shenanigans.
Speaking of shenanigans, hisparents were Irish immigrants
(05:31):
and they struggled to providefor their family and financial
instability was a constant themethroughout his childhood.
Despite these hardships, he didmaintain a close bond with his
family, who raised him in atight-knit immigrant community,
which is.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I mean the Irish, especially around 1900, they've
always kind of been repressedand had this reputation.
You know Boston and some ofthese areas where you see he's
in Brooklyn at this time.
So the Irish did live in verytight community communities and
a lot of those communities werepoor because they were kind of
the other at the time Around.
(06:10):
This time is also when theIrish kind of really started
mingling with the Italians aswell because they were both kind
of othered.
You saw a lot of crossovers andyou know historically in TV and
stuff they've always shown theIrish and the Italians kind of
against each other.
You see that a lot like theDeparted.
But in these time periodsreally the Irish and Italians
work together in certainsituations, not to go too much.
(06:33):
But you would see later wherethe Irish and the Italians, like
the Irish, would be a big partof what was known as Murder Inc.
Which was kind of the hit squadthat the Costa Nostra used in
their criminal activities.
So the Irish and the Italianshad a lot more crossover but a
(06:54):
lot of it came from them beingothered as immigrants into this
country and politicians andothers using them as kind of
these decoys.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So they did stay tight in it as kind of these
decoys, so they did stay tightin it.
So, although his family was notentirely destitute, his family
was entrenched in thosesocioeconomic brackets that left
them vulnerable to all theuncertainties of the early 20th
century.
And that environment fostered apragmatic approach to his life,
where his aspirations weretempered by the harsh realities
(07:24):
of their economic circumstances.
Sutton's formative years werespent observing the struggles of
those around him, which imbuedhim with an acute awareness of
the stark inequities of thesociety in which he lived.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And it was during these years that Sutton first
encountered the criminalunderworld.
The neighborhood he grew up inwas rife with petty crime, small
Irish mobs, and it was notuncommon for young men in his
community to become involvedwith illegal activities, either
as individuals or part of smallroving I guess you would call
gangs.
What is the sign you see in alot of Irish pubs?
(07:59):
Beware of pickpockets and loosewomen, kind of that whole Irish
mentality.
So Sutton's initial brush withKimes were reportedly small
scale and seemingly harmlesspickpocketing, petty theft,
things like that though theyserved as a stepping stone into
a larger world of criminalendeavors.
And it is also said that Suttonhad protection on the streets
(08:19):
and in jail when he would getpicked up from local mob members
, which kept him safe fromassault and other criminal
elements, and I think this is areal big depiction of his
ability to be kind of charmingand friendly with people.
That people wanted to protecthim, like they kind of looked
out for him.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I think that whole charming element goes a long way
in a lot of these criminalcases, like across the board.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yes, not just bank robberies, yeah and I and I
think with him, though in a wayit it became a good protective
factor because he didn't hurtpeople like he and he said would
say later in life, like he.
That was never his goal, likehis goal was to stick it to the
man and the money, but he neverwanted to harm people.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
It's almost like he used his powers for good instead
of for evil.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yes, and at that time again we talked about this with
John Dillinger there were a lotof people that looked at bank
robbers and people like WillieSutton because post great
depression, during thisprohibition era, like the media,
used them to sell papers.
But there was that anti-herothing that like you're going
against the government, yeah,you're stealing from the rich,
(09:30):
but you're stealing from therich.
There really was no Robin Hoodeffect.
Nobody was seeing.
It wasn't like they were takingthe money and giving it back to
people.
They were just stealing themoney and saving it for
themselves, but they were stillsticking it to the banks that
were kind of seenpost-Depression era as the cause
of some of the downfalls of thestock market stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So he ended up transitioning and growing into
crime, and as he went fromadolescence into adulthood, his
motivations for committingcrimes also evolved.
He was influenced heavily bythe disparity he saw between the
rich and the poor, as well asthe glamorized portrayal of bank
robbers in the media, which wewere just talking about, and he
(10:12):
developed a fascination with theidea of undermining the
financial institutions yes,emblematic of societal
oppression.
These influences andmotivations laid the groundwork
for his career in bank robbery,which culminated in strategy and
(10:40):
audacious heists that wouldearn him notoriety.
Willie Sutton's career ismarked by a series of audacious
bank heists that cemented hisreputation as one of the most
notorious bank robbers inAmerican history.
His foray into large-scale bankrobberies began with a
strategic approach thatleveraged both his cunning and
deep understanding of bankoperations.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So Willie Sutton's criminal career was initiated
through a series of calculatedbank heists that provided him
with both experience andnotoriety.
So he didn't have any priorbank knowledge.
It's not like he worked oranything, he just got really
good at casing joints, at beingable to really look at the
(11:23):
layout of the banks.
What were the activities ofpeople?
And this is one of the thingswe talk about in anti-robbery
and when we're talking aboutmaking places more harder
targets is it just becomes socommon for people to just get in
these routines, like if you didhappen to have a bank guard
every hour on the hour.
That's when they get up andthey walk the route, or
everybody comes in at the exactsame time in the morning.
(11:44):
And, as we'll see with a coupleof his heists, it was that
predictability that he was sogood at exploiting.
So the early heists that hestaged in his endeavors were
(12:07):
successful and reinforced hisconfidence and his skill set.
His ability to execute theseheists with precision not only
demonstrated his prowess butalso established him as a
formidable figure in thecriminal landscape.
And he was a liked figure, likeeven other criminals that he
came across.
He was able to charm them, toget them to work with him.
That comes very key post whenhe's arrested.
So throughout his career, suttontargeted numerous financial
(12:27):
institutions and each heist wasprefaced by careful
reconnaissance and planning.
So he's very big on thisplanning what is the best way to
do this?
But kind of in the opposite ofwhat we saw with Dillinger and
(12:50):
Van Meter and all them, where itwas the smash and grab, his was
very let's do tactics andsubterfuge.
So one of the ways he did thiswas utilizing disguises and
manipulating social cues to gainaccess to bank vaults.
His uncanny ability to commithigher stakes but low-risk
(13:11):
crimes led to a string ofsuccessful heists that became
sensational stories in the media.
One fact that made his legacystand out was that Sutton was
often referred to as a gentleman, and people present at his
robberies always noted that hewas polite, he was respectful,
(13:32):
and because of thesecombinations of disguises and
reputation as this gentleman, hegot two nicknames, the first
being the Actor and the otherbeing Slick Willie, which he
achieved just because of thisreputation.
Once, in a media interview inhis later life, he was asked why
(13:55):
he robbed banks and he answeredand it was simple Because this
is where the money was.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Straightforward answer, I mean, though he
committed numerous bankrobberies, there's one that
really kind of started thedownfall for him so I still have
to laugh at that whole politerobber like hi, I'm here to rob
(14:26):
you, could you please give methe money?
Thank you so much, do you mind?
Would you mind giving me allthe large bills?
No change please.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
No coin, thank you you ever seen LA story?
So this is the LA story andit's set like late 80s, early
90s.
It's Steve Martin that's themain character and the scene is
he goes up to an ATM and hepulls money out and as he starts
to walk away, there's a line ofpeople trying to get to the ATM
but there's a line of guys withguns and the guy, like,
(14:56):
introduces himself.
It's been a while.
He's like, but introducehimself, says his name and he's
like I'll be your robber today.
And Steve Martin's character islike oh hey, and he just hands
him the money and they just walkoff.
And it just kind of makes methink of the Willie Sutton like
hey, I'm Willie, I'm here to robyou today.
And they're like oh, willie,it's so good to see you.
Here's the money.
How's the kids Talk to youlater?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Come again soon.
See you in 11 months.
So, anyway, one of his bankrobberies that he had.
And the FBI article reallygives the best description of
two of Sutton's biggest crimes,the first one being February
15th of 1933, where Sutton and acolleague attempted to rob the
(15:38):
Corn Exchange Bank and TrustCompany in Philadelphia,
pennsylvania.
And in that one Suttondisguised himself as a mailman
and he entered the bank early inthe morning but there was a
curious passerby and that thatpasserby caught Willie's
attention and he completelyabandoned his robbery attempt at
(15:59):
that point in time, however, onJanuary 15th of 1934, so he was
very patient.
This is like 11 months later.
He was very patient.
I don't know that mostcriminals would want to wait
that long to try again, but hedid, which?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
is probably why he's successful.
Well, that and the other thinglike and I couldn't find
information about this, and thisis one thing that we've seen
with other cases, like kind ofbefore 1950.
There's not a lot ofinformation about specifics, um,
but there had to be somethingabout this bank specifically.
I don't know if it's the amountof money they were bringing in,
I couldn't really find detailsof that, but there was something
(16:38):
about this thing.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
He really wanted to hit the corn exchange bank and
trust which always makes mewonder if there's some type of a
personal thing there,especially given that history
and the socioeconomic factors.
It's the corn exchange bank andtrust.
Is there something specificabout that group of people that
(17:00):
caused him angst?
I don't know, it just seemslike an interesting institution
to target.
But on January 15th 1934, heenters that same bank, this time
with two companions, and theycome in through a skylight, and
then when the watchman arrives,they force him to admit the
employees like usual, like theydo every day, and as each
(17:23):
employee comes in, they handcuffthem and crowd them into this
small room.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
And that was the case .
That really got law enforcementonto him, and not long after
that he also executed a Broadwayjewelry store robbery, which
was done in the middle of theday by impersonating a postal
telegraph messenger.
So Sutton's other disguisesthat he had used through
robberies included a policeman,a messenger and a maintenance
(17:55):
man.
He was very good at using theuniforms and mannerisms of these
different professions to gainthe trust and get inside of
banks, as we see in the Broadwayjewelry store, just gaining
trust.
He carried guns.
(18:16):
It's never denied that he'dcarried Tommy guns.
He carried pistols, but there'seven a joke that was made
amongst law enforcement andWillie himself that it's very
possible they were never loaded.
That was made amongst lawenforcement and Willie himself
that it's very possible theywere never loaded.
We don't know for sure, butSutton's first serious brush
with law culminated in hiscapture in 1934, marking the
(18:42):
beginning of his complexinteraction with the legal
system.
Despite his meticulous planningand the cunning strategies that
he employed in his heist, lawenforcement agencies eventually
caught up with him, leading tomultiple arrests throughout his
career, and each captor was atestament to the growing
pressures on law enforcement todismantle Sutton's operations
and bring the elusive criminalto justice operations and bring
(19:05):
the elusive criminal to justice.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
So of course you think you know, ok, they've got
him, now he's, he's in custody.
Things are going to, you know,be good for the rest of us now.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That was.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Willie around Not so much so.
He had a talent for evasion andhe constantly kept the
authorities chasing their tails,and as his notoriety grew, so
did the efforts to bring him tojustice as things were going
along.
His initial capture was theresult of diligent law
(19:39):
enforcement work, and itinvolved extensive surveillance,
just the same as he hadsurveillance on these banks and
tip-offs from informants whooperated within the criminal
underworld.
So the arrest itself wasdramatic, and it captured the
attention of the public and themedia alike, which had been
closely following Sutton'sescapades.
(20:02):
Following his capture, thelegal proceedings commenced with
much public interest and mediaspectacle.
The courtroom scenes werereminiscent of dramatic
standoffs, as prosecutors alwayslove.
Those prosecutors presentedevidence against Sutton, who
remained unflustered amid theproceedings.
His trial not only brought hiscriminal exploits under the
(20:25):
judicial spotlight, but alsoshowcased his charisma and wit,
traits that Sutton skillfullyutilized to his advantage
throughout the legal process.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And besides being known as an innovative robber,
sutton's arrest in June 1931 oncharges of assault and robbery.
He ended up being sentenced to30 years in prison.
Of assault and robbery, heended up being sentenced to 30
years in prison.
But throughout hisincarceration, sutton
demonstrated a relentlesspursuit for escape, viewing
imprisonment as a mere obstacleto overcome.
His escape attempts were oftenmeticulously planned, just like
(20:58):
his robberies, showcasing hisability to leverage his keen
understanding of securitymeasures and human behavior
within the prison environment.
So he was good at getting alongwith inmates as well as guards,
gaining their trust andlearning their mannerisms, their
behaviors and their routines.
(21:20):
His prison escape attempts drewsignificant attention from both
prison officials and the public,who were captivated by his
apparent disregard for theconstraints of confinement.
Sutton's imprisonmentexperiences further illustrated
his resourcefulness anddetermination.
During his incarcerations hemade several escape attempts,
some of which were successful,some of them were not, and added
(21:47):
to his infamous reputation.
These attempts were marked byan audacity that continued to
captivate the public andfrustrate law enforcement
agencies.
Sutton seemed to view prison asjust another puzzle to break.
So his first escape was onDecember 11th of 1932.
He scaled the prison walls byusing two nine foot ladder
(22:11):
sections that were joinedtogether and going up and over
the wall.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
And so he was apprehended on February, the 5th
1934.
So you know, sometime later,and at that point he was
sentenced to serve 25 to 50years in Eastern State
Penitentiary, and that was forthe machine gun robbery of the
Corn Exchange Bank.
And then, on April 3rd 1945,sutton was one of 12 convicts
(22:41):
who escaped the institutionthrough a tunnel beneath the
prison walls.
This escape optimized.
Sudden, this escape epitomized.
I can't talk, hang on, I need adrink of water.
Water break, yeah, everybodygood.
(23:03):
A couple cars go by, we'reready for that.
Quick put down the drawbridge.
This escape epitomized Sutton'singenuity and determination,
gaining widespread notoriety andadding to his legend as a
master escape artist.
His escapes underscored abroader narrative of resilience,
further establishing his imageas a figure who defined, further
(23:27):
establishing his image as afigure who defied the
conventional confines of the law.
Sutton was recaptured the sameday by Philadelphia police
officers.
This had been his fifth escapeattempt at prison.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
And, as we've talked about, the Eastern State
Penitentiary in the 1930s waskind of a shit show anyway, but
the fact that he was able towork with 12 other convicts to
escape is just fascinating to me.
But it's not when you see andwe talked about how that was a
decaying facility by the 1930sand had already been there for
(24:06):
over 100 years it's not hard tosee that he was able to pull it
off.
I mean, it was not exactly asound infrastructure, but so I
sometimes wonder too what thedynamics were like.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
You're talking about personality and charisma and
things like that, and we know inmodern times now it seems like
our people running our jails andprisons kind of have a
different mindset than thepeople who are in there.
A definite separation.
You're not going to hang out,you're not going to chit chat.
(24:44):
You might be kind to oneanother, but it's not like you
know.
You're going to sit down andtell them stories about what
your kids are doing or anythinglike that.
And I don't know how it wasthen, but I get the feeling that
he would have been one of thosepeople that the guard might've
been like oh yeah, my kid wonhis baseball game this weekend,
type of a thing, like that'sjust the feeling I get from his
story.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Well, and when you go back to like Al Capone as well,
when he was there for a shorttime it talked about how he had
like a prison cell to himselfand he was treated like a king.
So also there was something atEastern State Penitentiary where
if you had notoriety and wereknown you kind of got this
different level of treatment.
And obviously Willie Sutton bythis time was a known figure.
He's one of those illustriousoutlaws that was in the media a
(25:31):
lot.
So, sentenced to life in prisonas a fourth-time offender,
sutton was transferred to thePhiladelphia County Prison in
Honesburg, pennsylvania.
On February 10th 1947, suttonand other prisoners dressed as
prison guards decided to carrytwo ladders across the prison
yard to the wall after dark.
(25:54):
When the prison searchlightshit them, sutton yelled it's OK.
And no one stopped him.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Which I think is just crazy.
It's oh look, they're taking aladder to the wall.
What's going on over there?
Oh, it's okay.
Oh well, he says it's okay.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Never mind, it's okay , it's nighttime, a couple of
prisoners are carrying it, acouple of guards just carrying
ladders and going up over thewall.
Nothing to see here.
This is just the most bonkersshit I've ever heard.
(26:33):
This is like I'm one of thosethat I very much and we've
talked about before with thoselike I hate the glorification of
criminals but I just like thisguy.
Like there's something like hehit all the bells and whistles
of like you know what.
I'm just going to fuck with thesystem, while doing his best
never to endanger anybody.
I mean, obviously, escapingfrom prison.
(26:54):
You're still putting people indanger and we have to take that
into account.
But he was just so smooth aboutsome of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
And you never know either who else he's
facilitating to escape, which,of course, is another one of
those things Like when you say,oh, 12 of them broke out.
Even if this specific personwasn't, like a quote unquote,
bad dude, you never know who the11 other people were that he
helped get out of the jail orprison.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, and I can't remember at this second because
it's been a few since werecorded that, but we talked
about who those 12 were and kindof their connections, but with
Willie.
On March 20th 1950, willie, theactor Sutton, was added to the
FBI's list of 10 most wantedfugitive.
So obviously well afterDillinger and them, but he
(27:40):
finally makes it on the mostwanted list.
Makes it on the most wantedlist because of his love for
expensive clothing, though.
The FBI decided to sendSutton's photo out to tailors as
well as police departments.
So a 24 year old Taylor's sonrecognized Sutton on the New
York subway on February 18th1952, and followed him to a
(28:01):
local gas station where Suttonpurchased a battery for his car.
The man reported the incidentto the police, who later
arrested Sutton, and again, Ijust think that says something.
There's something I love aboutthis guy who's like so fancy and
so known for wanting to dressin these nice suits.
The police are like you knowwhat, don't send it out to
everybody, just send it totailors and the cops.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
One of those two will notice who he is.
I thought that was pretty funnytoo, and it's like the taylor's
son that, like you know, of allthings, like you're like that's
ridiculous, but it worked, likeit was just the way it goes.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
It's almost like the joker you're like aha.
Send it to somebody that doesgreen hair dye they'll notice
him at least that was that guylike?
so uh son did not resist arrestby the new y Police Department
but denied that in those whatwas it like 13 years that he had
been on the run, that he hadcommitted any more robberies or
other crimes since that escapefrom the Philadelphia County
(28:56):
Prison.
So at the time of his arrest,sutton owed one life sentence
plus 105 years.
He was further sentenced to anadditional 30 years to life in
New York State prison followinga jury trial in Queens County
Court, where he serves hissentence until he was released
(29:16):
from Attica prison on December24th 1969 at the age of 68.
So I guess, like that goes backto the summer of 69.
Well, I guess it's the winterof 69.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, winter of 69, which is kind of crazy when you
think about.
Like.
He got out at 68, but he wassupposed to have a life sentence
plus 105 years.
Again, that charismatic thinghow in the hell do you have that
much and somehow you get out?
I mean, 68 is not exactly young, but it's also not, you know,
like some of the cases now wherethey let the person out and six
(29:51):
months later they're gone.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
And I think his health had been declining, so I
just think they didn't see himas a risk anymore.
But at the same time, yeah,like what is?
And I think we still ask thisquestion today.
Sometimes when we see peoplethat are let out of prison and
stuff it what is?
And I think we still ask thisquestion today sometimes when we
see people that are let out ofprison and stuff it's like what
does life really mean?
Because it's not what peoplethink it means.
Life is 25 years and then afterthat, parole is optional.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Especially if you get all different things like
credit of time served and goodtime and all the different
calculations they have with that.
And then, of course, if it's aCOv or crime of violence and
that changes the calculation.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
But you're, you're right, like people say, oh,
they're going to serve 15 years,and in their mind they add 15
years to whatever the date isand thinks well, that that's
when they're going to get out,but no, not so much and I'll be
honest, like I'm a littlesurprised I let him out at 68
just because, like bitch, heembarrassed y'all like five
times by escaping from jail andstuff.
Like usually law enforcementtakes that stuff like really
(30:54):
personal.
But at the same time he'sreally charismatic, he's very
friendly, but there is kind ofthat like, oh you let me out of
prison.
No, I stayed here until I was68, just so you guys know.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Like I just just that's how I imagined willie
sutton playing this out, almostlike a deal, like I've been good
for so long can you please letme out so I don't have to leave
on my own.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, like the the god I forget the name of the
movie, but like where they're.
Like, all right, we're gonnalet you go and the guy just
hands him the cuffs he's like oh, I'm gonna take him off at any
time, like yeah, I could haveleft any time, yeah.
I'm glad you think you'reletting me go.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
But, yeah, he eventually got to return to the
real world and when he wasreleased from prison, he
precipitated a combination ofyeah, hang on one second, hang
on one second.
Did we already go over that?
(31:48):
No, we didn't.
Okay.
So eventually he returns to thequote-unquote real world and
when he's released from prison,there's a combination of factors
, including his advanced age,his changing perspectives on
criminal rehabilitation, like wetalked about, his charismatic
character and the legal system'sevolving stance towards
(32:09):
incarceration and reform wetalked before about, like the
punitive standpoint versus thereformative standpoint, and at
this point in his age, as we'regetting up to that, like 1960s,
1970s, it's more of a focus onrehabilitation instead of
punishment and trying toseparate people from society and
actually trying to get peopleto come back into society as a
(32:33):
functioning member.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Well, and this is also kind of that weird time
that late 60s going into theearly 70s, where you had
deinstitutionalization and wewere trying to get people out of
institutions but we haven't hitthe war on crime yet.
So there's this like reallysmall sweet spot where, like, we
were trying to report peopleand get them out of prison and
then, like 1970s, we hit the waron crime and then we just flood
(32:56):
the prison system.
So he just happened to be inthat sweet spot.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Which is interesting when you look at those like
different evolutions of lawenforcement and how our
attitudes have changed, likeeven from you know, like when we
talked about Eastern state andyou know as far as like having
people be in solitaryconfinement, and how things have
changed on the view of solitaryconfinement, that at first it
was like, oh, this is the bestthing.
(33:20):
And then it's like, oh wait,that's actually like the worst
kind of torture you could do tosomebody.
Then it was okay, we're notgoing to do solitary.
And now we're back to well,we'll do it, but it's more of a
punishment thing than an actual.
This is the status quo typething.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
So those differences are always interesting and I
always wonder how much of thatis influenced by different
groups.
Is it a psychology thing?
Is it a law enforcement thing,Is it a corrections office thing
, or is it just a societal likein general?
Speaker 1 (33:48):
this is how we feel thing thing or is it just a
societal like in general?
This is how we feel thing and Ithink it's a cycle because I do
see the potential right now,like in the environment we're in
from a criminal justicestandpoint, like starting to go
back more to those extremepunitive measures, um, where you
may see like big institutionsagain with vast imprisonments,
more use of solitary confinementstuff.
(34:10):
There are talks of that beingbecause you know we're in 2024,
going in 2025, and there is alot of talk of like crime is
escalating again.
We are seeing some violentcrime, so can we use such
extreme punitive punishments asa deterrent?
So I think this is kind of acycle system that we see, um,
(34:32):
there have been some politiciansin the us and this is getting a
little off topic, but we willbring it back around to explain
that but using some of likesouth america's they have gone
to like these really extremelockdown prisons where it's 23
and a half hours a day.
If you come out that half houryou either work out or you go to
church services.
(34:52):
Everything else is done verytight-knit.
These are strong, huge,concrete facilities.
They're not made for comfortand it is a license once you
were put in this type offacility and there are
politicians talk about this isthe route we need to go.
So we talk about like thiscycle of you know, again with
(35:13):
Eastern State todeinstitutionalization like this
where his aides, let's get himout, let's try and reform him,
and now we're starting to swingback towards that almost
institutionalizing again, butlike in this situation.
So once free from prison, suttonfaced some daunting tasks of
rebuilding his life outside ofthe confines of prison walls.
(35:35):
I mean, he'd been in for a longtime and his life before was
fueled completely by crime.
So he didn't have any resourcesat this point.
But, as we see, he is acreative character.
So his attempts to establish alegitimate lifestyle were met
with challenges affecting bothpersonal struggles and societal
skepticism.
You know he is still aconvicted criminal who's out
(35:59):
People still at this time andeven now, like you, still kind
of get that, that scarlet letterbecause of that criminal
background.
But despite these obstacles,sutton endeavored to leverage
his notoriety for positivepurposes, undertaking activities
such as public speakingengagements where he advocated
against criminal behavior andshared insights from his lived
(36:27):
experiences.
One valuable way Sutton didthis was by consulting with
banks and law enforcement abouthis methods and tactics and he
also became an actor and a bookauthor.
So he really kind of almost thewhite collar TV show or the
Catch Me, if you Can, where hewent from being the criminal to
(36:47):
a consultant and trying to usethese skills that he had.
I didn't really see anythingabout his books or his acting,
but I did see a lot about hisconsulting work with law
enforcement and banks because hewas really good and he was
(37:13):
really good at exposingweaknesses stuff and security.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Which is kind of like when you have a hacker that's
really good and then you turnaround and hire them to try to
hack into the system to see didwe actually close all the doors
this time?
Which is what he did.
You know which is what he did.
(37:52):
He had that repeated success ininfiltrating and robbing the
banks and significant insurveillance and the
manipulation of the socialdynamics that challenged banks
to reassess and enhance theirprotective measures thoroughly.
And it's because of the thingsthat he was able to share, the
revelations that he was able toshare with the banks, that it
promoted innovative, more robustsecurity, more robust security
technologies and procedures,including things like the
(38:14):
implementation of advanced alarmsystems, reinforced vaults and
increased use of armed securitypersonnel.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
And for law enforcement my area.
Sutton's elusive nature andability to execute high-profile
crimes without immediate capturesparks significant
introspection and reform.
His crimes emphasize the needfor improved coordination
between agencies.
So we saw this all the way backinto Dillinger's time where
(38:47):
even counties right next to eachother didn't talk to each other
.
If you crossed state lines itwas easy to get away because
jurisdictions didn't talk.
So Willie really kind of helpedthem realize that they needed
to be talking amongst lawenforcement agencies but also
with the corrections facilities,banks and private security
companies.
There needed to be more of acriminal justice system, not a
(39:09):
law enforcement system, a courtsystem and things like that.
So his crimes emphasized alsothe need to tackle organized
crime.
Even though Willie doesn'tappear to have been involved
with organized crimes, he had alot of connection to him and we
still see throughout his careerthat he was protected by
organized crime elements becausethere was that mutual respect.
(39:31):
So law enforcement realizedthat they had to do something
about these burgeoning organizedcrime and we'll talk about
there were places wherecriminals could go to hide, so
being able to break down thoseorganizations, those states and
those corrupt officials as well.
So law enforcement agenciesalso expanded their use of
investigative techniques, suchas undercover work and forensic
(39:52):
sciences, to better anticipateand future endeavors similar to
Sutton's.
But Sutton's final years werespent reflecting on his life's
journey, grappling with thebalance between notoriety and
redemption.
He navigated public andpersonal expectations, leaving a
legacy that continues to bedebated in terms of its moral
(40:13):
and social implications.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
So you have Willie, the actor Sutton, and he died
November the 2nd of 1980 at theage of 79.
His story is a quintessentialexample of the interplay between
crime and the media, where hisnarrative crafted by the press
played a significant role inshaping public perception.
We've talked about that a lot,about you know, like you said,
(40:38):
the anti-hero and things of thatnature and the way the media
played off all of thesecharacters during that time
period.
Throughout his criminal career,sutton's heists were
extensively covered bynewspapers and magazines, which
were captivated by his daringexploits and ability to evade
capture, which I think isanother one of those things that
(40:58):
people loved about it, becausehe just kept escaping like, oh
yeah, you have me now.
Ha ha, I know you don't.
Here I go, I'm loose again.
And just over and over and overgetting away from all of these
different institutions thatyou're not supposed to be able
to just walk away from yeah, andhe did it in a way that was
just in their face and so theseweren't in depth.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I mean, some of them were like the tunneling and
stuff took time, but he justcarried two ladders across the
yard.
It was just like I'm leavingand they're like cool, like
nobody.
And because of that, you know,the media descriptions of Sutton
often straddled the linebetween criminal and folklore,
like he became this anti-hero,with articles emphasizing his
(41:43):
cleverness, his elusiveness andcharm.
This portrayal was partiallyfueled by the dramatic nature of
his crimes, which includedthese elaborate heists but also
these like really elaborateslash kind of dumb escapes.
Stories about Sutton's criminalactivities were frequently
front page news reflecting notonly the seriousness'll come up
(42:05):
like so many times as wecontinue doing this amazing
podcast.
The media really used thesestories and sometimes really
created these legends to sellpapers.
Because, you know, cat came outof a tree, mary Lou went and
(42:26):
bought corn yesterday.
That's not going to sell.
But here's Willie Sutton who,with 11 other people, tunneled
out of this prison that'snotorious for not being able to
be escaped from and it's it'skind of not only what builds to
(42:59):
crime and criminals and kind ofthese people that go against the
social norms and mores that wehave established and create this
counterculture.
So further compounding Sutton'smedia appeal was his ability to
capture the zeitgeist of theera, particularly in the context
of economic disparity andsocietal shifts.
His targeting of financialinstitutions, perceived by many
(43:27):
as a symbol of inequality,resonated with a public
disillusioned by the GreatDepression's economic fallout
this connection helped create asympathetic aura around Sutton,
positioning him as a rebelfigure challenging societal
structures rather than merely,like this, hoodlum criminal.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
And to me, like I really find music fascinating
and since I've gotten into musicfascinating, and since I've
gotten into Motorcycle, they'reat the stop sign waiting for
them there he goes.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Sorry about your penis.
So to me, like music is alwayskind of a big thing, and
especially since I startedgetting a true crime, and
especially the historical ones.
There's a lot of things thatmusic gets associated with,
these folk stories and stuff,and tom chapin wrote a song
(44:29):
called the ballad of williesutton and this song provides
not only kind of a narrativesutton's life but also shows his
folk hero status and especiallywith bluegrass and that music
style that really comes from theIrish and the mountain folk
(44:52):
across this country that lookedat people they saw as icons, and
he's forever immortalized bythis song.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Which, like you said, it's always interesting how
songs like we were talking aboutwith Ludlow like the songs that
came from that and you know the.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Tell me why and and I think what's really interesting
just from a culturalperspective is, like said,
music's great and I haven'trealized until probably the last
year, especially the more I'vebeen teaching in criminal
justice how many songs that wehear that talk about crime and
(45:34):
activity and stuff from hundredsof years ago to now are based
in some type of true lore, likeanother case that we're looking
at about the Lawson familymurders, like there's a song
about it.
I just listened to the song oneday I was like oh, that's a neat
song, like it's a bluegrasssong, it's kind of neat.
(45:55):
But then I Googled it and I waslike holy shit, like this is
real and a lot of these songsare based in facts, even if they
may, in this case, kind ofglamorize it and make them like
it's just the way our culturekind of embraced these people.
And in the end I kind ofembraced Willie Sutton Like I'd
love to hug this dude.
This guy just seems like one ofthose people that even as law
(46:18):
enforcement you're like you knowwhat I got to give you props?
Because in the game when welook back of cops and you know
cops and robbers we play as kids.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
This guy was the robber and that and that game is
a child that you always wantedto meet and, of course, since he
didn't actually hurt people, itmakes him a lot more likable as
a character, exactly which alsogives us the ability to have a
little bit more fun with this.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
So you know, god bless slick willie wherever he
is and may.
We have helped kind of keep hisstory alive and also bring
attention to the things that hedid to help make us a better
society by being willing to comeout afterwards, admit his
crimes and then say not only didI commit these crimes, but
here's how you can prevent them.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Definitely.
you're in your cocoon now.
You're good, all right, sowelcome to another episode.
So this time we're gonna haveat the beginning a little bit of
office sausage talk and justkind of bring up some fact, like
every once in a while you mayhear a car in the background.
That's because we're humanbeings that record in a house.
We don't have a cool studio, sosomehow a nice rural road,
(00:27):
every time we go to record anepisode, becomes the Indy 500.
So if you hear everyone's allthe vehicle noise or real weird
pause or my inability to speakEnglish, it is one of those
reasons I also want to take aminute, because we haven't done
that so far.
It's our podcast and we can dothis to like, just say like
thanks to a few people.
So one I definitely want to saythanks to Heather for doing
(00:50):
this with me, and Rachel whenshe comes back.
I want to acknowledge yourother half, scott, who has been
super supportive of this.
My wife, who I will just referto as bunny, for dealing with
this and letting me spend a lotof money on a hobby.
To Nancy, aka my daughter, whois our producer, who is now
staring at me like I am a dick.
(01:13):
I also want to acknowledge liketwo very good friends of mine,
one being Val, who I know hasbeen supportive and kind of
helpful through this, and thenalso my buddy and BFF, warren,
who has been very supportive andlistening as well from the
beginning.
So I just kind of want toacknowledge some people and
thank them for their support andmaking this all possible as
(01:34):
we're going into like 13episodes 14 episodes at this
point.
So that's that and, with thatbeing said, so I'm Richard, I'm
Heather and this week we wantedso I'm Richard, I'm Heather.
And this week we wanted to dosomething a little bit more
lighthearted.
So when Heather, rachel and Iset out to do this podcast,
really it was about kind of ourpassions, with our backgrounds
(01:56):
being in criminal justice andbeing able to take those
experiences and kind of continueat least using that knowledge
in a way to educate people andjust kind of do things with our
friends.
So yeah, most of our episodeshave been about murder or murder
adjacent, which is partiallyinfluenced by my academic and
(02:17):
professional research, which hasbeen focused on mass murder and
serial crimes, and then justkind of the true crime nature of
things murder and serial crimesand then just kind of the true
crime nature of things, like itusually does kind of go more
towards the dark issues morethan it does some of the more
light-hearted crimes that youdon't really hear about as much
(02:38):
because they don't just get theattention.
But in our research acrossmultiple episodes that we've
already done, specifically likethe John Dillinger and Eastern
State Penitentiary, there wasthis really interesting guy that
popped up whose name was WillieSutton and he's kind of this
famous, notorious bank robberthat his story just really got
(03:00):
me because of who he was, hisbackground and that across all
his crimes he never murderedanybody, he didn't assault
people, he just kind of had thisinteresting way of committing
his crimes.
So kind of a little bit aboutWillie Sutton.
So he's kind of like I said,this notorious famous bank
robber in American history.
(03:21):
He lived his life emblematic ofkind of the tumultuous world in
that early 20th century whencrime was kind of rampant, that
late 1920s going into the 1930sprohibition era.
So he was known for beingreally charismatic and he was
ingenious in the methods that hehad of evading capture, of
robbing banks.
(03:42):
And it provides a fascinatinginsight to this interplay
between criminality and societyduring his time.
Because he did become this kindof like folk hero, almost an
anti-establishment person thatpeople kind of were drawn to,
even the people he robbed, whichwe'll talk about.
But his life and crimes weredriven by a combination of
(04:03):
personal motivation and thenkind of this, this, the systemic
influences of what washappening in that time period
and it not only attracted theattention of law enforcement
obviously, but it did captivatethe public's interest in him and
what he was able to pull off.
So willie's journey into infamybegan long before his first
main life, heist, his, his earlylife and the environment where
(04:28):
he was exposed to played asignificant role in shaping kind
of who he became as a bankrobber.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Did you want me to pick up there?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Sure, I don't want to dominate all this.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So you mean to start where he was born?
Yeah, Okay, as soon as thetruck goes by.
So he was born into a workingclass family in Brooklyn, New
York, June 30th 1901.
So a long, long time ago.
And he was the fourth of fivechildren.
I'm the oldest of my family andI can say as an oldest we
(05:10):
definitely have a differentdisposition than those who are
younger siblings, and he's thefourth of fifth.
So I think that that definitelyhas something to do with his
ingenuity and thought processand the different things he's
able to pull off the shenanigans.
Speaking of shenanigans, hisparents were Irish immigrants
(05:31):
and they struggled to providefor their family and financial
instability was a constant themethroughout his childhood.
Despite these hardships, he didmaintain a close bond with his
family, who raised him in atight-knit immigrant community,
which is.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I mean the Irish, especially around 1900, they've
always kind of been repressedand had this reputation.
You know Boston and some ofthese areas where you see he's
in Brooklyn at this time.
So the Irish did live in verytight community communities and
a lot of those communities werepoor because they were kind of
the other at the time Around.
(06:10):
This time is also when theIrish kind of really started
mingling with the Italians aswell because they were both kind
of othered.
You saw a lot of crossovers andyou know historically in TV and
stuff they've always shown theIrish and the Italians kind of
against each other.
You see that a lot like theDeparted.
But in these time periodsreally the Irish and Italians
work together in certainsituations, not to go too much.
(06:33):
But you would see later wherethe Irish and the Italians, like
the Irish, would be a big partof what was known as Murder Inc.
Which was kind of the hit squadthat the Costa Nostra used in
their criminal activities.
So the Irish and the Italianshad a lot more crossover but a
(06:54):
lot of it came from them beingothered as immigrants into this
country and politicians andothers using them as kind of
these decoys.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So they did stay tight in it as kind of these
decoys, so they did stay tightin it.
So, although his family was notentirely destitute, his family
was entrenched in thosesocioeconomic brackets that left
them vulnerable to all theuncertainties of the early 20th
century.
And that environment fostered apragmatic approach to his life,
where his aspirations weretempered by the harsh realities
(07:24):
of their economic circumstances.
Sutton's formative years werespent observing the struggles of
those around him, which imbuedhim with an acute awareness of
the stark inequities of thesociety in which he lived.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And it was during these years that Sutton first
encountered the criminalunderworld.
The neighborhood he grew up inwas rife with petty crime, small
Irish mobs, and it was notuncommon for young men in his
community to become involvedwith illegal activities, either
as individuals or part of smallroving I guess you would call
gangs.
What is the sign you see in alot of Irish pubs?
(07:59):
Beware of pickpockets and loosewomen, kind of that whole Irish
mentality.
So Sutton's initial brush withKimes were reportedly small
scale and seemingly harmlesspickpocketing, petty theft,
things like that though theyserved as a stepping stone into
a larger world of criminalendeavors.
And it is also said that Suttonhad protection on the streets
(08:19):
and in jail when he would getpicked up from local mob members
, which kept him safe fromassault and other criminal
elements, and I think this is areal big depiction of his
ability to be kind of charmingand friendly with people.
That people wanted to protecthim, like they kind of looked
out for him.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I think that whole charming element goes a long way
in a lot of these criminalcases, like across the board.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yes, not just bank robberies, yeah and I and I
think with him, though in a wayit it became a good protective
factor because he didn't hurtpeople like he and he said would
say later in life, like he.
That was never his goal, likehis goal was to stick it to the
man and the money, but he neverwanted to harm people.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
It's almost like he used his powers for good instead
of for evil.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yes, and at that time again we talked about this with
John Dillinger there were a lotof people that looked at bank
robbers and people like WillieSutton because post great
depression, during thisprohibition era, like the media,
used them to sell papers.
But there was that anti-herothing that like you're going
against the government, yeah,you're stealing from the rich,
(09:30):
but you're stealing from therich.
There really was no Robin Hoodeffect.
Nobody was seeing.
It wasn't like they were takingthe money and giving it back to
people.
They were just stealing themoney and saving it for
themselves, but they were stillsticking it to the banks that
were kind of seenpost-Depression era as the cause
of some of the downfalls of thestock market stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So he ended up transitioning and growing into
crime, and as he went fromadolescence into adulthood, his
motivations for committingcrimes also evolved.
He was influenced heavily bythe disparity he saw between the
rich and the poor, as well asthe glamorized portrayal of bank
robbers in the media, which wewere just talking about, and he
(10:12):
developed a fascination with theidea of undermining the
financial institutions yes,emblematic of societal
oppression.
These influences andmotivations laid the groundwork
for his career in bank robbery,which culminated in strategy and
(10:40):
audacious heists that wouldearn him notoriety.
Willie Sutton's career ismarked by a series of audacious
bank heists that cemented hisreputation as one of the most
notorious bank robbers inAmerican history.
His foray into large-scale bankrobberies began with a
strategic approach thatleveraged both his cunning and
deep understanding of bankoperations.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So Willie Sutton's criminal career was initiated
through a series of calculatedbank heists that provided him
with both experience andnotoriety.
So he didn't have any priorbank knowledge.
It's not like he worked oranything, he just got really
good at casing joints, at beingable to really look at the
(11:23):
layout of the banks.
What were the activities ofpeople?
And this is one of the thingswe talk about in anti-robbery
and when we're talking aboutmaking places more harder
targets is it just becomes socommon for people to just get in
these routines, like if you didhappen to have a bank guard
every hour on the hour.
That's when they get up andthey walk the route, or
everybody comes in at the exactsame time in the morning.
(11:44):
And, as we'll see with a coupleof his heists, it was that
predictability that he was sogood at exploiting.
So the early heists that hestaged in his endeavors were
(12:07):
successful and reinforced hisconfidence and his skill set.
His ability to execute theseheists with precision not only
demonstrated his prowess butalso established him as a
formidable figure in thecriminal landscape.
And he was a liked figure, likeeven other criminals that he
came across.
He was able to charm them, toget them to work with him.
That comes very key post whenhe's arrested.
So throughout his career, suttontargeted numerous financial
(12:27):
institutions and each heist wasprefaced by careful
reconnaissance and planning.
So he's very big on thisplanning what is the best way to
do this?
But kind of in the opposite ofwhat we saw with Dillinger and
(12:50):
Van Meter and all them, where itwas the smash and grab, his was
very let's do tactics andsubterfuge.
So one of the ways he did thiswas utilizing disguises and
manipulating social cues to gainaccess to bank vaults.
His uncanny ability to commithigher stakes but low-risk
(13:11):
crimes led to a string ofsuccessful heists that became
sensational stories in the media.
One fact that made his legacystand out was that Sutton was
often referred to as a gentleman, and people present at his
robberies always noted that hewas polite, he was respectful,
(13:32):
and because of thesecombinations of disguises and
reputation as this gentleman, hegot two nicknames, the first
being the Actor and the otherbeing Slick Willie, which he
achieved just because of thisreputation.
Once, in a media interview inhis later life, he was asked why
(13:55):
he robbed banks and he answeredand it was simple Because this
is where the money was.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Straightforward answer, I mean, though he
committed numerous bankrobberies, there's one that
really kind of started thedownfall for him so I still have
to laugh at that whole politerobber like hi, I'm here to rob
(14:26):
you, could you please give methe money?
Thank you so much, do you mind?
Would you mind giving me allthe large bills?
No change please.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
No coin, thank you you ever seen LA story?
So this is the LA story andit's set like late 80s, early
90s.
It's Steve Martin that's themain character and the scene is
he goes up to an ATM and hepulls money out and as he starts
to walk away, there's a line ofpeople trying to get to the ATM
but there's a line of guys withguns and the guy, like,
(14:56):
introduces himself.
It's been a while.
He's like, but introducehimself, says his name and he's
like I'll be your robber today.
And Steve Martin's character islike oh hey, and he just hands
him the money and they just walkoff.
And it just kind of makes methink of the Willie Sutton like
hey, I'm Willie, I'm here to robyou today.
And they're like oh, willie,it's so good to see you.
Here's the money.
How's the kids Talk to youlater?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Come again soon.
See you in 11 months.
So, anyway, one of his bankrobberies that he had.
And the FBI article reallygives the best description of
two of Sutton's biggest crimes,the first one being February
15th of 1933, where Sutton and acolleague attempted to rob the
(15:38):
Corn Exchange Bank and TrustCompany in Philadelphia,
pennsylvania.
And in that one Suttondisguised himself as a mailman
and he entered the bank early inthe morning but there was a
curious passerby and that thatpasserby caught Willie's
attention and he completelyabandoned his robbery attempt at
(15:59):
that point in time, however, onJanuary 15th of 1934, so he was
very patient.
This is like 11 months later.
He was very patient.
I don't know that mostcriminals would want to wait
that long to try again, but hedid, which?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
is probably why he's successful.
Well, that and the other thinglike and I couldn't find
information about this, and thisis one thing that we've seen
with other cases, like kind ofbefore 1950.
There's not a lot ofinformation about specifics, um,
but there had to be somethingabout this bank specifically.
I don't know if it's the amountof money they were bringing in,
I couldn't really find detailsof that, but there was something
(16:38):
about this thing.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
He really wanted to hit the corn exchange bank and
trust which always makes mewonder if there's some type of a
personal thing there,especially given that history
and the socioeconomic factors.
It's the corn exchange bank andtrust.
Is there something specificabout that group of people that
(17:00):
caused him angst?
I don't know, it just seemslike an interesting institution
to target.
But on January 15th 1934, heenters that same bank, this time
with two companions, and theycome in through a skylight, and
then when the watchman arrives,they force him to admit the
employees like usual, like theydo every day, and as each
(17:23):
employee comes in, they handcuffthem and crowd them into this
small room.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
And that was the case .
That really got law enforcementonto him, and not long after
that he also executed a Broadwayjewelry store robbery, which
was done in the middle of theday by impersonating a postal
telegraph messenger.
So Sutton's other disguisesthat he had used through
robberies included a policeman,a messenger and a maintenance
(17:55):
man.
He was very good at using theuniforms and mannerisms of these
different professions to gainthe trust and get inside of
banks, as we see in the Broadwayjewelry store, just gaining
trust.
He carried guns.
(18:16):
It's never denied that he'dcarried Tommy guns.
He carried pistols, but there'seven a joke that was made
amongst law enforcement andWillie himself that it's very
possible they were never loaded.
That was made amongst lawenforcement and Willie himself
that it's very possible theywere never loaded.
We don't know for sure, butSutton's first serious brush
with law culminated in hiscapture in 1934, marking the
(18:42):
beginning of his complexinteraction with the legal
system.
Despite his meticulous planningand the cunning strategies that
he employed in his heist, lawenforcement agencies eventually
caught up with him, leading tomultiple arrests throughout his
career, and each captor was atestament to the growing
pressures on law enforcement todismantle Sutton's operations
and bring the elusive criminalto justice operations and bring
(19:05):
the elusive criminal to justice.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
So of course you think you know, ok, they've got
him, now he's, he's in custody.
Things are going to, you know,be good for the rest of us now.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That was.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Willie around Not so much so.
He had a talent for evasion andhe constantly kept the
authorities chasing their tails,and as his notoriety grew, so
did the efforts to bring him tojustice as things were going
along.
His initial capture was theresult of diligent law
(19:39):
enforcement work, and itinvolved extensive surveillance,
just the same as he hadsurveillance on these banks and
tip-offs from informants whooperated within the criminal
underworld.
So the arrest itself wasdramatic, and it captured the
attention of the public and themedia alike, which had been
closely following Sutton'sescapades.
(20:02):
Following his capture, thelegal proceedings commenced with
much public interest and mediaspectacle.
The courtroom scenes werereminiscent of dramatic
standoffs, as prosecutors alwayslove.
Those prosecutors presentedevidence against Sutton, who
remained unflustered amid theproceedings.
His trial not only brought hiscriminal exploits under the
(20:25):
judicial spotlight, but alsoshowcased his charisma and wit,
traits that Sutton skillfullyutilized to his advantage
throughout the legal process.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And besides being known as an innovative robber,
sutton's arrest in June 1931 oncharges of assault and robbery.
He ended up being sentenced to30 years in prison.
Of assault and robbery, heended up being sentenced to 30
years in prison.
But throughout hisincarceration, sutton
demonstrated a relentlesspursuit for escape, viewing
imprisonment as a mere obstacleto overcome.
His escape attempts were oftenmeticulously planned, just like
(20:58):
his robberies, showcasing hisability to leverage his keen
understanding of securitymeasures and human behavior
within the prison environment.
So he was good at getting alongwith inmates as well as guards,
gaining their trust andlearning their mannerisms, their
behaviors and their routines.
(21:20):
His prison escape attempts drewsignificant attention from both
prison officials and the public,who were captivated by his
apparent disregard for theconstraints of confinement.
Sutton's imprisonmentexperiences further illustrated
his resourcefulness anddetermination.
During his incarcerations hemade several escape attempts,
some of which were successful,some of them were not, and added
(21:47):
to his infamous reputation.
These attempts were marked byan audacity that continued to
captivate the public andfrustrate law enforcement
agencies.
Sutton seemed to view prison asjust another puzzle to break.
So his first escape was onDecember 11th of 1932.
He scaled the prison walls byusing two nine foot ladder
(22:11):
sections that were joinedtogether and going up and over
the wall.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
And so he was apprehended on February, the 5th
1934.
So you know, sometime later,and at that point he was
sentenced to serve 25 to 50years in Eastern State
Penitentiary, and that was forthe machine gun robbery of the
Corn Exchange Bank.
And then, on April 3rd 1945,sutton was one of 12 convicts
(22:41):
who escaped the institutionthrough a tunnel beneath the
prison walls.
This escape optimized.
Sudden, this escape epitomized.
I can't talk, hang on, I need adrink of water.
Water break, yeah, everybodygood.
(23:03):
A couple cars go by, we'reready for that.
Quick put down the drawbridge.
This escape epitomized Sutton'singenuity and determination,
gaining widespread notoriety andadding to his legend as a
master escape artist.
His escapes underscored abroader narrative of resilience,
further establishing his imageas a figure who defined, further
(23:27):
establishing his image as afigure who defied the
conventional confines of the law.
Sutton was recaptured the sameday by Philadelphia police
officers.
This had been his fifth escapeattempt at prison.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
And, as we've talked about, the Eastern State
Penitentiary in the 1930s waskind of a shit show anyway, but
the fact that he was able towork with 12 other convicts to
escape is just fascinating to me.
But it's not when you see andwe talked about how that was a
decaying facility by the 1930sand had already been there for
(24:06):
over 100 years it's not hard tosee that he was able to pull it
off.
I mean, it was not exactly asound infrastructure, but so I
sometimes wonder too what thedynamics were like.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
You're talking about personality and charisma and
things like that, and we know inmodern times now it seems like
our people running our jails andprisons kind of have a
different mindset than thepeople who are in there.
A definite separation.
You're not going to hang out,you're not going to chit chat.
(24:44):
You might be kind to oneanother, but it's not like you
know.
You're going to sit down andtell them stories about what
your kids are doing or anythinglike that.
And I don't know how it wasthen, but I get the feeling that
he would have been one of thosepeople that the guard might've
been like oh yeah, my kid wonhis baseball game this weekend,
type of a thing, like that'sjust the feeling I get from his
story.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Well, and when you go back to like Al Capone as well,
when he was there for a shorttime it talked about how he had
like a prison cell to himselfand he was treated like a king.
So also there was something atEastern State Penitentiary where
if you had notoriety and wereknown you kind of got this
different level of treatment.
And obviously Willie Sutton bythis time was a known figure.
He's one of those illustriousoutlaws that was in the media a
(25:31):
lot.
So, sentenced to life in prisonas a fourth-time offender,
sutton was transferred to thePhiladelphia County Prison in
Honesburg, pennsylvania.
On February 10th 1947, suttonand other prisoners dressed as
prison guards decided to carrytwo ladders across the prison
yard to the wall after dark.
(25:54):
When the prison searchlightshit them, sutton yelled it's OK.
And no one stopped him.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Which I think is just crazy.
It's oh look, they're taking aladder to the wall.
What's going on over there?
Oh, it's okay.
Oh well, he says it's okay.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Never mind, it's okay , it's nighttime, a couple of
prisoners are carrying it, acouple of guards just carrying
ladders and going up over thewall.
Nothing to see here.
This is just the most bonkersshit I've ever heard.
(26:33):
This is like I'm one of thosethat I very much and we've
talked about before with thoselike I hate the glorification of
criminals but I just like thisguy.
Like there's something like hehit all the bells and whistles
of like you know what.
I'm just going to fuck with thesystem, while doing his best
never to endanger anybody.
I mean, obviously, escapingfrom prison.
(26:54):
You're still putting people indanger and we have to take that
into account.
But he was just so smooth aboutsome of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
And you never know either who else he's
facilitating to escape, which,of course, is another one of
those things Like when you say,oh, 12 of them broke out.
Even if this specific personwasn't, like a quote unquote,
bad dude, you never know who the11 other people were that he
helped get out of the jail orprison.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, and I can't remember at this second because
it's been a few since werecorded that, but we talked
about who those 12 were and kindof their connections, but with
Willie.
On March 20th 1950, willie, theactor Sutton, was added to the
FBI's list of 10 most wantedfugitive.
So obviously well afterDillinger and them, but he
(27:40):
finally makes it on the mostwanted list.
Makes it on the most wantedlist because of his love for
expensive clothing, though.
The FBI decided to sendSutton's photo out to tailors as
well as police departments.
So a 24 year old Taylor's sonrecognized Sutton on the New
York subway on February 18th1952, and followed him to a
(28:01):
local gas station where Suttonpurchased a battery for his car.
The man reported the incidentto the police, who later
arrested Sutton, and again, Ijust think that says something.
There's something I love aboutthis guy who's like so fancy and
so known for wanting to dressin these nice suits.
The police are like you knowwhat, don't send it out to
everybody, just send it totailors and the cops.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
One of those two will notice who he is.
I thought that was pretty funnytoo, and it's like the taylor's
son that, like you know, of allthings, like you're like that's
ridiculous, but it worked, likeit was just the way it goes.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
It's almost like the joker you're like aha.
Send it to somebody that doesgreen hair dye they'll notice
him at least that was that guylike?
so uh son did not resist arrestby the new y Police Department
but denied that in those whatwas it like 13 years that he had
been on the run, that he hadcommitted any more robberies or
other crimes since that escapefrom the Philadelphia County
(28:56):
Prison.
So at the time of his arrest,sutton owed one life sentence
plus 105 years.
He was further sentenced to anadditional 30 years to life in
New York State prison followinga jury trial in Queens County
Court, where he serves hissentence until he was released
(29:16):
from Attica prison on December24th 1969 at the age of 68.
So I guess, like that goes backto the summer of 69.
Well, I guess it's the winterof 69.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, winter of 69, which is kind of crazy when you
think about.
Like.
He got out at 68, but he wassupposed to have a life sentence
plus 105 years.
Again, that charismatic thinghow in the hell do you have that
much and somehow you get out?
I mean, 68 is not exactly young, but it's also not, you know,
like some of the cases now wherethey let the person out and six
(29:51):
months later they're gone.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
And I think his health had been declining, so I
just think they didn't see himas a risk anymore.
But at the same time, yeah,like what is?
And I think we still ask thisquestion today.
Sometimes when we see peoplethat are let out of prison and
stuff it what is?
And I think we still ask thisquestion today sometimes when we
see people that are let out ofprison and stuff it's like what
does life really mean?
Because it's not what peoplethink it means.
Life is 25 years and then afterthat, parole is optional.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Especially if you get all different things like
credit of time served and goodtime and all the different
calculations they have with that.
And then, of course, if it's aCOv or crime of violence and
that changes the calculation.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
But you're, you're right, like people say, oh,
they're going to serve 15 years,and in their mind they add 15
years to whatever the date isand thinks well, that that's
when they're going to get out,but no, not so much and I'll be
honest, like I'm a littlesurprised I let him out at 68
just because, like bitch, heembarrassed y'all like five
times by escaping from jail andstuff.
Like usually law enforcementtakes that stuff like really
(30:54):
personal.
But at the same time he'sreally charismatic, he's very
friendly, but there is kind ofthat like, oh you let me out of
prison.
No, I stayed here until I was68, just so you guys know.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Like I just just that's how I imagined willie
sutton playing this out, almostlike a deal, like I've been good
for so long can you please letme out so I don't have to leave
on my own.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, like the the god I forget the name of the
movie, but like where they're.
Like, all right, we're gonnalet you go and the guy just
hands him the cuffs he's like oh, I'm gonna take him off at any
time, like yeah, I could haveleft any time, yeah.
I'm glad you think you'reletting me go.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
But, yeah, he eventually got to return to the
real world and when he wasreleased from prison, he
precipitated a combination ofyeah, hang on one second, hang
on one second.
Did we already go over that?
(31:48):
No, we didn't.
Okay.
So eventually he returns to thequote-unquote real world and
when he's released from prison,there's a combination of factors
, including his advanced age,his changing perspectives on
criminal rehabilitation, like wetalked about, his charismatic
character and the legal system'sevolving stance towards
(32:09):
incarceration and reform wetalked before about, like the
punitive standpoint versus thereformative standpoint, and at
this point in his age, as we'regetting up to that, like 1960s,
1970s, it's more of a focus onrehabilitation instead of
punishment and trying toseparate people from society and
actually trying to get peopleto come back into society as a
(32:33):
functioning member.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Well, and this is also kind of that weird time
that late 60s going into theearly 70s, where you had
deinstitutionalization and wewere trying to get people out of
institutions but we haven't hitthe war on crime yet.
So there's this like reallysmall sweet spot where, like, we
were trying to report peopleand get them out of prison and
then, like 1970s, we hit the waron crime and then we just flood
(32:56):
the prison system.
So he just happened to be inthat sweet spot.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Which is interesting when you look at those like
different evolutions of lawenforcement and how our
attitudes have changed, likeeven from you know, like when we
talked about Eastern state andyou know as far as like having
people be in solitaryconfinement, and how things have
changed on the view of solitaryconfinement, that at first it
was like, oh, this is the bestthing.
(33:20):
And then it's like, oh wait,that's actually like the worst
kind of torture you could do tosomebody.
Then it was okay, we're notgoing to do solitary.
And now we're back to well,we'll do it, but it's more of a
punishment thing than an actual.
This is the status quo typething.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
So those differences are always interesting and I
always wonder how much of thatis influenced by different
groups.
Is it a psychology thing?
Is it a law enforcement thing,Is it a corrections office thing
, or is it just a societal likein general?
Speaker 1 (33:48):
this is how we feel thing thing or is it just a
societal like in general?
This is how we feel thing and Ithink it's a cycle because I do
see the potential right now,like in the environment we're in
from a criminal justicestandpoint, like starting to go
back more to those extremepunitive measures, um, where you
may see like big institutionsagain with vast imprisonments,
more use of solitary confinementstuff.
(34:10):
There are talks of that beingbecause you know we're in 2024,
going in 2025, and there is alot of talk of like crime is
escalating again.
We are seeing some violentcrime, so can we use such
extreme punitive punishments asa deterrent?
So I think this is kind of acycle system that we see, um,
(34:32):
there have been some politiciansin the us and this is getting a
little off topic, but we willbring it back around to explain
that but using some of likesouth america's they have gone
to like these really extremelockdown prisons where it's 23
and a half hours a day.
If you come out that half houryou either work out or you go to
church services.
(34:52):
Everything else is done verytight-knit.
These are strong, huge,concrete facilities.
They're not made for comfortand it is a license once you
were put in this type offacility and there are
politicians talk about this isthe route we need to go.
So we talk about like thiscycle of you know, again with
(35:13):
Eastern State todeinstitutionalization like this
where his aides, let's get himout, let's try and reform him,
and now we're starting to swingback towards that almost
institutionalizing again, butlike in this situation.
So once free from prison, suttonfaced some daunting tasks of
rebuilding his life outside ofthe confines of prison walls.
(35:35):
I mean, he'd been in for a longtime and his life before was
fueled completely by crime.
So he didn't have any resourcesat this point.
But, as we see, he is acreative character.
So his attempts to establish alegitimate lifestyle were met
with challenges affecting bothpersonal struggles and societal
skepticism.
You know he is still aconvicted criminal who's out
(35:59):
People still at this time andeven now, like you, still kind
of get that, that scarlet letterbecause of that criminal
background.
But despite these obstacles,sutton endeavored to leverage
his notoriety for positivepurposes, undertaking activities
such as public speakingengagements where he advocated
against criminal behavior andshared insights from his lived
(36:27):
experiences.
One valuable way Sutton didthis was by consulting with
banks and law enforcement abouthis methods and tactics and he
also became an actor and a bookauthor.
So he really kind of almost thewhite collar TV show or the
Catch Me, if you Can, where hewent from being the criminal to
(36:47):
a consultant and trying to usethese skills that he had.
I didn't really see anythingabout his books or his acting,
but I did see a lot about hisconsulting work with law
enforcement and banks because hewas really good and he was
(37:13):
really good at exposingweaknesses stuff and security.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Which is kind of like when you have a hacker that's
really good and then you turnaround and hire them to try to
hack into the system to see didwe actually close all the doors
this time?
Which is what he did.
You know which is what he did.
(37:52):
He had that repeated success ininfiltrating and robbing the
banks and significant insurveillance and the
manipulation of the socialdynamics that challenged banks
to reassess and enhance theirprotective measures thoroughly.
And it's because of the thingsthat he was able to share, the
revelations that he was able toshare with the banks, that it
promoted innovative, more robustsecurity, more robust security
technologies and procedures,including things like the
(38:14):
implementation of advanced alarmsystems, reinforced vaults and
increased use of armed securitypersonnel.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
And for law enforcement my area.
Sutton's elusive nature andability to execute high-profile
crimes without immediate capturesparks significant
introspection and reform.
His crimes emphasize the needfor improved coordination
between agencies.
So we saw this all the way backinto Dillinger's time where
(38:47):
even counties right next to eachother didn't talk to each other
.
If you crossed state lines itwas easy to get away because
jurisdictions didn't talk.
So Willie really kind of helpedthem realize that they needed
to be talking amongst lawenforcement agencies but also
with the corrections facilities,banks and private security
companies.
There needed to be more of acriminal justice system, not a
(39:09):
law enforcement system, a courtsystem and things like that.
So his crimes emphasized alsothe need to tackle organized
crime.
Even though Willie doesn'tappear to have been involved
with organized crimes, he had alot of connection to him and we
still see throughout his careerthat he was protected by
organized crime elements becausethere was that mutual respect.
(39:31):
So law enforcement realizedthat they had to do something
about these burgeoning organizedcrime and we'll talk about
there were places wherecriminals could go to hide, so
being able to break down thoseorganizations, those states and
those corrupt officials as well.
So law enforcement agenciesalso expanded their use of
investigative techniques, suchas undercover work and forensic
(39:52):
sciences, to better anticipateand future endeavors similar to
Sutton's.
But Sutton's final years werespent reflecting on his life's
journey, grappling with thebalance between notoriety and
redemption.
He navigated public andpersonal expectations, leaving a
legacy that continues to bedebated in terms of its moral
(40:13):
and social implications.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
So you have Willie, the actor Sutton, and he died
November the 2nd of 1980 at theage of 79.
His story is a quintessentialexample of the interplay between
crime and the media, where hisnarrative crafted by the press
played a significant role inshaping public perception.
We've talked about that a lot,about you know, like you said,
(40:38):
the anti-hero and things of thatnature and the way the media
played off all of thesecharacters during that time
period.
Throughout his criminal career,sutton's heists were
extensively covered bynewspapers and magazines, which
were captivated by his daringexploits and ability to evade
capture, which I think isanother one of those things that
(40:58):
people loved about it, becausehe just kept escaping like, oh
yeah, you have me now.
Ha ha, I know you don't.
Here I go, I'm loose again.
And just over and over and overgetting away from all of these
different institutions thatyou're not supposed to be able
to just walk away from yeah, andhe did it in a way that was
just in their face and so theseweren't in depth.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I mean, some of them were like the tunneling and
stuff took time, but he justcarried two ladders across the
yard.
It was just like I'm leavingand they're like cool, like
nobody.
And because of that, you know,the media descriptions of Sutton
often straddled the linebetween criminal and folklore,
like he became this anti-hero,with articles emphasizing his
(41:43):
cleverness, his elusiveness andcharm.
This portrayal was partiallyfueled by the dramatic nature of
his crimes, which includedthese elaborate heists but also
these like really elaborateslash kind of dumb escapes.
Stories about Sutton's criminalactivities were frequently
front page news reflecting notonly the seriousness'll come up
(42:05):
like so many times as wecontinue doing this amazing
podcast.
The media really used thesestories and sometimes really
created these legends to sellpapers.
Because, you know, cat came outof a tree, mary Lou went and
(42:26):
bought corn yesterday.
That's not going to sell.
But here's Willie Sutton who,with 11 other people, tunneled
out of this prison that'snotorious for not being able to
be escaped from and it's it'skind of not only what builds to
(42:59):
crime and criminals and kind ofthese people that go against the
social norms and mores that wehave established and create this
counterculture.
So further compounding Sutton'smedia appeal was his ability to
capture the zeitgeist of theera, particularly in the context
of economic disparity andsocietal shifts.
His targeting of financialinstitutions, perceived by many
(43:27):
as a symbol of inequality,resonated with a public
disillusioned by the GreatDepression's economic fallout
this connection helped create asympathetic aura around Sutton,
positioning him as a rebelfigure challenging societal
structures rather than merely,like this, hoodlum criminal.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
And to me, like I really find music fascinating
and since I've gotten into musicfascinating, and since I've
gotten into Motorcycle, they'reat the stop sign waiting for
them there he goes.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Sorry about your penis.
So to me, like music is alwayskind of a big thing, and
especially since I startedgetting a true crime, and
especially the historical ones.
There's a lot of things thatmusic gets associated with,
these folk stories and stuff,and tom chapin wrote a song
(44:29):
called the ballad of williesutton and this song provides
not only kind of a narrativesutton's life but also shows his
folk hero status and especiallywith bluegrass and that music
style that really comes from theIrish and the mountain folk
(44:52):
across this country that lookedat people they saw as icons, and
he's forever immortalized bythis song.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Which, like you said, it's always interesting how
songs like we were talking aboutwith Ludlow like the songs that
came from that and you know the.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Tell me why and and I think what's really interesting
just from a culturalperspective is, like said,
music's great and I haven'trealized until probably the last
year, especially the more I'vebeen teaching in criminal
justice how many songs that wehear that talk about crime and
(45:34):
activity and stuff from hundredsof years ago to now are based
in some type of true lore, likeanother case that we're looking
at about the Lawson familymurders, like there's a song
about it.
I just listened to the song oneday I was like oh, that's a neat
song, like it's a bluegrasssong, it's kind of neat.
(45:55):
But then I Googled it and I waslike holy shit, like this is
real and a lot of these songsare based in facts, even if they
may, in this case, kind ofglamorize it and make them like
it's just the way our culturekind of embraced these people.
And in the end I kind ofembraced Willie Sutton Like I'd
love to hug this dude.
This guy just seems like one ofthose people that even as law
(46:18):
enforcement you're like you knowwhat I got to give you props?
Because in the game when welook back of cops and you know
cops and robbers we play as kids.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
This guy was the robber and that and that game is
a child that you always wantedto meet and, of course, since he
didn't actually hurt people, itmakes him a lot more likable as
a character, exactly which alsogives us the ability to have a
little bit more fun with this.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
So you know, god bless slick willie wherever he
is and may.
We have helped kind of keep hisstory alive and also bring
attention to the things that hedid to help make us a better
society by being willing to comeout afterwards, admit his
crimes and then say not only didI commit these crimes, but
here's how you can prevent them.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Definitely.
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