Jag Sihra- Skies. Silks, and Storytelling

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Okay, so I can still hear you, which is look okay.
You can hear me and Yeah, herewe are.
Both of us Here we are.
Both of us doing our things.
So good.
But you where you had a focus,right?
Obviously you had a focus.
I mean it was I had a desire adesire.

(00:42):
But you you did it the rightway, if you like.
Okay, there was a kind ofadjunct where you you went into
corporate, but I meangoldsmiths, St.
Martin's, all of that, which isnot to be sniffed at.

SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
The St.
Martin's goal was probably thefirst, most important kind of
um, I suppose, accomplishment,if you like.
Just because I had that in myheart, you know, for me that was
the pinnacle of art education.
And I think we're always lookingfor sort of validation, aren't
we, to a degree, whether that'sright or wrong, but we do.
So that was my first sort of amajor milestone.

(01:22):
Um, and and then that, yeah,first round of validation, if
you like.
I wouldn't say it gave me anawful lot, but I wouldn't say it
built my confidence.
I think that that kind of, asyou say, it sort of burns in
you, doesn't it, really?
Mm-hmm.
And and you can't kind of get toa point where you can't ignore
it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
No, but you know, as far as Jag, Syrah, the creative.
Yeah.
Where where were you firstbecoming conscious that, okay,
you know, this is this is thisis super cool.
I I want to do this.

SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
Yeah, I just wanted to.
I just knew that was that wasthe thing for me.
Um, I was so young, sort of soyoung and unaware of really what
I suppose what gut instinctactually means, but I just knew
this made me really calm, happy,whether I was drawing, whether I
was painting, whether I wascreating something.

(02:21):
It I knew I was content when Iwas doing it.
And that was before I even knewthat it was a career path or you
know, that you could pursue itin that kind of formal manner.
So, in that little video, Ithink, um, where I talk about I
was 10.
I mean, I literally was 10.
I used to jump, I want to be anartist, I want to be an artist.
So there must have beensomething in me that even at

(02:43):
that point my consciousnesswasn't aware of, but I knew
that's what I wanted.
And then as I as I grew up, Ithink you sort of get to a point
where you think, actually, and Iand I looked around me and I saw
others, you know, I saw thecreative pathways, if you like.
I saw other people just, youknow, um pursuing graphic
design, for example, and Ithought, oh, okay, there's

(03:05):
something in this, you know, youcan actually pursue a career
through these various pathways.
So that's when I remember atschool, very often actually
during A-level times, I used toskive off other lessons um to go
and sit in the art room, and Iwould just draw for hours.
You know, other people wouldskyve off to go and you know,
day gig or something, but Iwould go and and paint in the

(03:28):
art room.
I really got friendly with theart teachers and and it it it
was my happy place.
So yeah, I spent a lot of timethere.
Um, and then I think it wasaround that time, it was when I
joined foundation course,really, that that's when
everything blossomed.
You know, that tutors at atfoundation level was like tear
up everything you've ever beentaught.

(03:50):
Rades and art and you know, goand pursue, go and draw, go and
draw, rip up bits of paper anddraw on it.
Don't draw on a square sheet ofpaper, you know, draw here, draw
there.
My f very first visit to the VA.
Oh my goodness, it was just likeit was an awakening.
That's the only way I candescribe it.

(04:12):
Such a beautiful venue.
Yeah, beautiful.
It was an awakening.
We know we were we were taken tothe VA, we sat in the what in
those days was the sculpturegallery, and we were told to
start drawing uh perspective.
Okay.
Not really taught much more thanthat.
Um, and I spent a week drawing,you know, statue of David, you

(04:32):
know, looking down the gallery,drawing perspective.
Absolutely felt like that timejust slipped away without me
even realizing.
By the end of the week, I foundmyself in the Indian galleries,
um, drawing replicas of of theIndian rugs, you know, for the
Mughal period, um, from the Sikhruling sort of period.

(04:54):
Just just fell in love with theVA.
And I I still say to people, theVA is my spiritual home.
So if you want to scatter myashes in that pond in steady
sentence.
Happy, happy days, you'll behappy with that.

SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
Steady, steady.
There's a while to go before anyof that happens.

SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
They don't they might not want my ashes, but you
know, I'd be happy there.

SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
So it's interesting you mentioned, you know, the the
cultural linkage even way backthen.
And I've I've looked at, youknow, your website and the
artifacts that you have curatedand and presented, and I can see
a lot of embellishment, right,from from your cultural

(05:38):
heritage.
Is that something that's really,really important for you and
your work?

SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
I think it's intrinsic and it's a thread,
pardon the pun, that runsthrough your DNA, to be honest.
Um I would step back one fromthat.
I would say colour, actually.
Colour is something that runsthrough my work, and I think the
kind of boldness and the thepleasure of just celebrating

(06:05):
colour, that's definitelycultural.
And that was something I wasdoing again before I recognized
I was doing it.
But I remember my first week atSt.
Martin's, and again, our introto everything, you know, whether
it be perspective or, you know,colour theory or whatever.
For me, I think the thestudents, uh, my friends around
me were board stiff.
You know, we we were told toliterally get our little paints,

(06:27):
our gouache paints, and mix thecolour wheel.
And we created entire sheets ofuh, you know, uh little
vignettes of colour by mixingopposites and contradictory
colours and how to make brownsand never to use a blackout of a
tube, how to mix your own paint.
For me, honestly, that was stillone of the most pleasurable

(06:51):
projects we ever did at St.
Martin's.
I absolutely fell in love withcolour theory because I was
doing it, and once again, thisput put a label to it, this put
a name to it, you know?
There was something calledcolour theory, and I was lucky
enough to be taught by um a guycalled Garth, but I was taught
by a guy who was a real advocateof colour theory.

(07:12):
Okay.
So he was really passionateabout it.
And and I remember the first setof paintings I produced after
the first set of paintings Iproduced after the the colour
theory project.

SPEAKER_02 (07:25):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
The the learnings just flowed out into the into
the painting.
And I was kind of doingimpressionism before I realised
I was doing impressionism.
I was captivated by theImpressionist movement, the
fauxves, who were the wildbeasts, translated, um, of the
European art movement.
And all of the the vehicle wascolour, you know, literally.

(07:49):
So for me, I think I will resteverything on colour first, and
then the drawing flows from it.
And I think you know uh itattracts me in other people's
work, but it's kind of where Ifeel I do my best work as well.
So that has to be cultural, youknow.
That I think um looking aroundme, and it was a diverse group

(08:09):
of people, but um thecelebration of colour, and I
mean it was alluded to, maybenot in the most positive of
ways, always, but this um kindof ethnic influence was always
there.
Um, we all know now, don't we,in the journey that we've taken
that actually that was somethingto be celebrated and to be proud

(08:29):
of, even if others at the timeweren't necessarily celebrating
it.

SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
No, I mean, you're absolutely right, of course.
And we'll get into that bit,right?
But what's already really,really evident to me, and
because I've recently looked at,you know, I can't call it a body
of work, but what you arepresenting on your site.
And there's such a layeredcomplexity to it.

(08:56):
It there really, really is.
Listening to this aspect of yourstory, it's it's wonderful
because I I've kind of got nowthe script behind the canvas.

SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that that's evolved,and I think that that can only
come from, as you say, a sortof, if you like, half a
lifetime's development.
And everything you do in lifecontributes, doesn't it?
Even if you don't know doing itat the time.
But everything you learncontributes, especially to
creative work, right?
So all those years we had in uhcorporate life, we were

(09:34):
designing from the other side ofthe table, weren't we, if you
like.
So we were writing proofs, wewere strategizing, weren't we?
Writing proofs for othercreatives, and I think that's
really helped me in my work nowbecause in my commercial work, I
try and get under the skin of myclient, whoever that client
might be.
And my business partnershipoffice often says to me that you

(09:56):
have a comedian-like quality.
So although my thread of my workand maybe the core of my work is
in the style of drawing, and Ialways go back to drawing as the
very first, you know, sort of agerm of any any any project, any
design idea, anything alwaysstarts with drawing.
And that's where Jag Sierracomes into it, that's where my

(10:18):
DNA is.
And then, but after that, inorder to please, and any
designer, as opposed to the artside of things, any designer
will agree that you have toplease your client in the end.
But I think what's happened overthe years is I've managed to
hone my ability to get under theskin of a client's dis you know,
of a client and their desiresand to make them happy, but

(10:41):
using my my you know skills as avehicle.
That's a nice result, you know.
And the layers show you'reabsolutely right.
And then, you know, you in anygiven piece of work, you'll get
you'll get an element of methrough my drawing, and then the
boldness of colour, and I'llsort of have that running
through it.
But then actually, it could bethat the client really wants to

(11:02):
dial up an anniversary orcelebrate something.
So I managed to kind of weaveall that together, and I think
that's what you've rightly saidthat there are layers to the
work.
It's it's not one-dimensional byany means, and it's not all
about me, you know, it's reallynot all about me because that's
not for me, that's not what asuccessful designer does.

(11:23):
I think you can you can go andhold yourself up in your studio
and paint for a day just forpleasure.
Um, and that's the artist inyou, and we all need to do that
sometimes.
We need to vent, right?
Yes.
But I think in order to designsuccessfully and to call
yourself successful as adesigner, you do have to please
the end client or customer orfriend or whoever it happens to

(11:44):
be, you know, that you'reworking, doing that piece of
work for.
Well, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
I mean, that that's something that I learned the
hard way.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
In the balancing act.
You know, we've all gone I'vehad my breakdowns, you know,
gone and had had to make a cupof tea and lock myself in a room
and scream for a while, but youcan't you come out and you start
again, you know, because thepassion drives you.
You know, you want to get itright as much as you want to get
a piece of art right or or tofulfill that, you know, that um

(12:12):
what's the word, the the barthat you've set for yourself.
You also there's a real pleasurein pleasing somebody else with
you know through your work, Ithink.

SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
I think that's that's that's absolutely spot
on.
Um I think what you might havedone in the past that might have
got you a gig, right?
But then it's about okay, how doI keep that gig?
And then if you look at exitstrategy, the work that you're
doing now, it's it's got toinfluence the opportunities for

(12:46):
for tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 (12:47):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Yeah.
So there there is a hugecommercial reality.

SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
You know, and and I think we've all been mindful of
that.
You know, we've got to have thepipeline alive to keep it alive.

SPEAKER_01 (13:00):
Yeah.
Uh and this is something that II've found in my space, which is
less about art is and creation,if you like, but more in the
digital reserve um realm and ummore about behavioral science
and that kind of stuff.
Where the younglings Yeah, theythey they they seem to come out
of college now, and okay, I lovethe ambition, I love the

(13:23):
passion, I love all of that, butinvariably they'll sit down with
you and they'll say, Well, thisKine, this P.O.
this whoever it is, they don'tget it.
I'm here to do this, and theydon't want my ideas, and they
they're very fixed.
And how do I I said, listen, whyare you here?

SPEAKER_03 (13:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
Right?
What is your purpose?
Yes, we have to find a balance,but um you you need to
understand why.
And if it's not you that's goingto be utilized, yeah, why?

SPEAKER_00 (13:58):
Yeah.
It's hand holding, isn't it?
A big part of the skill set ishand holding.
Um, and and I think both of uswe have to cut our teeth on that
skill.
Uh, you know, back in thecorporate days, I think you have
to hand hold and you have toguide.
Um it's a it's a soft skill thatserves you well, I think.
And if you can bring your clienton side through those soft

(14:21):
skills, they start trying wetalked about it a lot the other
day, they start trusting, right?
So you've got to build um, butequally there has to be
humility.
I think what you've just saidabout, you know, younglings is
that there's a you know uh youyou have to remember humility
because we don't all knoweverything.
Yeah, we have the skills, havethe skills and we've built them

(14:42):
over a long time.
And it, you know, I argue withpeople who say, well, just come
and be what you ever you want tobe.
I don't, I don't buy into that.
I do think you need to do anawful lot of learning before you
can stand on a pedestal and umlecture or you know, kind of um
uh profess to know to knowenough to lead someone else to

(15:03):
an end game, right?
You need that.
And actually, I mean, everyevery creative that we look up
to will always say, you know,you don't stop learning.
You don't stop learning.
And if you do stop learning,then actually oh time to maybe
step off because it's in thelearning.
And we all know that.
I mean, teaching art has alwaysgiven me, given me the the sort

(15:26):
of energy.
So I often go back to that, youknow, whenever I can to do a
little bit, whether it's alittle bit of lecturing or
whatever, but that energy thatyou get from that is all through
learning.
Every piece of work that you do,every project that you deliver,
there's a massive learning everytime, you know, every single
time.
And you need to start embracingthat and looking forward to

(15:46):
every project as anotherlearning curve and another
opportunity to get it right anddo it better than last time.
And you look back then, you Ithink even in just in terms of
setting up the studio, I lookback to when I start, you know,
launched the studio and theskill, even the the sort of
digital skills that, you know, Iwas a paper and pencils girl and

(16:07):
paint, and but I knew I had topick up digital skills and I,
you know, pushed myself out ofmy comfort zone.
And now I feel that I canactually meld the two together
again to create thatmulti-layered effect that you
talk about, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
Um But listening to you now, you're still advocating
for graft, for passion, forresilience.

SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
You cannot rest on your laurels, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
I I look at you, yeah, and I'm and I'm hearing
about your story, and thank youso much for sharing it.
And you just keep getting betterand better and better.
Goodness.

SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
That's so kind.

SPEAKER_01 (16:52):
But you do, and you are.

SPEAKER_00 (16:54):
That probably that probably stems from a desire to
keep improving, I suppose,because I just think, you know,
you look around you and there'syou know, the people you admire,
the artists you admire, younever quite feel that you're
you're there yet.
You know, you want to keepimproving.
So if that's uh sort of a what'sthe word?
If if that's a tenet that I canlive by, then happy me, because

(17:18):
I'm living my dream, you know.
And if I'm getting better whileI'm doing it, gosh, that's just
a bonus.
But I'm getting to, you know,showcase my art, do drawings for
people, paint for people, designfor people, and they're loving
it.
And and that just has to be, youknow, just the ultimate for me,
you know.
And then if it means you get youget more work, if it means you

(17:41):
get to talk about your work, andif it means other people enjoy
it, then then that's evenbetter.
But yeah, I think that's abyproduct, really.
Getting better is a byproduct offeeling that desire that
actually you can do better.

SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
Yeah, I I I think I think that maybe that's part
cultural.
Definitely it's in in our DNA.
I think that's also maybe, andyou know, tell me if I'm wrong,
if that's in any way related tobeing first generation, second
generation immigrant stock,right?
Having to come like our parentsdid, and their parents before

(18:16):
them, perhaps coming into adifferent country or moving from
country to country, and thenseeing that struggle, and then
finding a space eventually thatyou yourself might feel
comfortable in.

SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Yeah, I think I think we have to cre we I think
we're all aware, aren't we, asas products of that sort of you
know, immigrant chort ofthird-generation immigrant
community, that that often thoseseats aren't just openly
available at those tables.
So we have to create them.
And I think the sooner you learnthat you have to create your

(18:53):
own, you do it, get on with it.
It's not going to be easy andit's not going to be made openly
available.
We get used to, I think veryearly on, we get used to not
having the ease of just slippinginto, you know, rooms where you
know you're going to getopportunity.
So you have to start making yourown opportunities.

(19:15):
And I think by that token, youyou're always ready to prove
yourself.
You're never afraid to do that.
But you're very aware that youneed to show people the quality
of what you can do before theyeven, you know, give you some
space or time.
So I'm not afraid of that.
And I think often if you can bebrave enough to do that, it will

(19:37):
pretty much always lead tosomething else.
But I don't think you can everexpect anything to be handed on
a plate.
But I don't think we ever have.
No.
We're so used to that now.
It's it's an unspokenmethodology, if you like, in in
our community, isn't it?
That you just have to go and beand do and crack on.
And actually, if if you youknow, if you can rely on on your

(20:00):
own skills and if you can createyour own spaces, and if someone
wants to jump on board, happydays, but if not, you've just
got to crack on.

SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
You just have to do it.

SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
No one's gonna do it for you.
No one's going the no one'sgoing to pat you on the back and
say, Oh, haven't you done well?
It's not about that.
And I think you've got to stopwaiting for that.

SPEAKER_01 (20:19):
And you are you are the one of the most perfect
examples of that.

unknown (20:24):
Right?

SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
It takes a while, wasn't it?
It took a while.
But you know, but you're doingit, you are doing it.
No, it's it's great fun.
I mean, you know, there's otheraspects to life, aren't they,
that sort of drive you?
And I think for me, very muchhaving my children when I did
gave me a sense of purpose farbigger than my own.

(20:45):
So I was always creative, andthe burning desire was always
there.
And I talk a lot about the factthat I always wanted to do this,
but actually, did I have thebravery?
You know, I talked about it alot, but and I worked in
creative roles, which werereally wonderful in themselves,
don't get me wrong, but I knewit wasn't everything.
And then the children camealong, and I think I in having
them, I discovered a purpose waybigger than myself.

SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
And actually, that's when everything came together in
terms of you know what, you'vegot to step out, you've got,
you've got one chance to do, tonot only follow your dream, but
actually give them something toadmire.
Don't give them a mum thatnearly did it, you know.
Don't be that, you know, mumwanted to do this always, but
she she she had a nice job, soshe stayed there.

(21:33):
Um, I didn't want that for them.
I wanted them to see mefulfilled and living my dream.
And if something comes of thatfor them, wonderful.
But I know they've been a hugeinspiration in my I suppose in
giving me uh the the kind ofambition maybe that I was
lacking in the past, um, to turnthis into something more, you

(21:56):
know.
Kids, I mean I don't want tograndiose it by any means, but
it's a kind of a legacy in myown simple way.

SPEAKER_01 (22:05):
I don't think anyone can understand that.
Having children is and um I'mjust thinking back to to my
grandmother now, right?
Having kids is is it is a gift.
And she always used to say tome, One day, one day, you will
have my great grandchildren.

(22:26):
Right?
And then she'd quickly shiftinto, well, hurry up, hurry up,
because I'm not gonna be hereforever.
All of that kind of thing.
But what she'd always say isthat they are they are they are
gods.

SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, they are the significationof the Almighty, aren't they?
They really are.

SPEAKER_01 (22:47):
You know, and I, you know, yeah, everyone has their
challenges and all the rest ofit.
Yeah.
So when when I exited fromBritish Airways, you know, I had
two rug rats and no job and justdivorced and all of that kind of
stuff.
And you kind of go, you know,and you have these little curved
balls that the universe throwsat you, and what do you what do

(23:09):
you do then?
And I had lots of choices,thankfully, definitely didn't
want to go into engineering.
No, didn't want to go backthere, that was done.
But then having the opportunityat BA and in BA.com and
introducing tooling at BA.com,whatever version of Adobe
Photoshop it was, elements, Ithink, I can't remember.

(23:31):
And then all of a sudden, with abrilliant, brilliant boss, Helen
Liley, yeah, who just said, Howcan you do these things?
I was like, I don't know, justdo them because it's fun, right?
And then we had less work goingout to, I think it was some
agency in Newcastle, because wewere doing stuff in-house, but

(23:54):
all of those things that occurand they're all part of this to
interject there, but that's areally good example of what I've
been going on about.

SPEAKER_00 (24:02):
Um, is that you delivered before you were even
asked to deliver.
You showed them something thatexisted out of a passion that
you had, you know.
And you know, you you didn't doit out of I'm gonna get brownie
points for this, I'm gonna getcommended for this example.
You just wanted to do it, youwere you were enjoying it, and
then you did it on top of yourday job.

(24:22):
And I think that's a perfectexample of what we've talked
about.
It's not glamorous and it's not,you know, it's not what people
necessarily want to hear, butyou do have to do more before
you get given an opportunity.
It's it's simple as that.
Stepping back into thatconversation about your
children, I remember uh thosedays, and I was desperate to

(24:43):
have children and they hadn'tcome along yet.
And your two were at that sortof uh primary school age then,
and I just remember them beingat the centre of your universe.
Um and I just used to reallyadmire that.
I remember yes, and you'd beenthrough a really hard time.
So but the children, oh my god,they were at the heart of

(25:06):
everything you did.
And all of our conversationcentered around that, really.
So that's something to beremembered and admired, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
Yeah, I look I'm not the only single parent on the
planet, and you know,unfortunately, it doesn't look
like that's gonna change anytimesoon.
But, you know, I had mum, I hadsome solid friendships in there,
but it was genuinely all aboutthe Bubas, as I call them.

SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
It was, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
And, you know, having a a reasonable boss, you
know, Joel, where is he?
You know, and she'd cover for meon occasion because I had to go
and do something for them orwhat have you.
Which never would have happenedin engineering.
Ever.
But to do that um BA.com wherewe were.
That was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
But you know, you were very supportive people
there.
I remember I was going throughsome of them were losses, were
were, you know, yeah.
And and you know, there was thatstill that element of it's a
people place, you know, timeschange and you know, bottom
lines become king and thingslike that.
But it was a good place.

(26:14):
And I think it's not until now,and I often talk to other, you
know, uh uh I often talk tofriends who have sort of left BA
and gone on to do some reallywonderful things.
And the one thing we all gettogether and we do acknowledge
is that we didn't actuallyrealise how much we were
learning.
Um, and whether that be youknow, soft skill, whether that
be dealing with stakeholders,whether that be the you know,

(26:38):
that ability to to to go andpresent to clients at a really
high level, I think because wewere stretched in that way, we
weren't necessarily compensatedfor it, but I think we were
stretched in that way.
So actually now when you have togo and do it on your own steam,
you don't actually feel thatfear, you know, because actually
you realize actually I've donethis many times before.

(27:00):
Your language changed, you know,your ability to communicate at
certain levels.
I think all of that we didthrough so many levels of having
to deal with so many differenttasks and wearing so many
different hats.
Because we all wore or did morethan we were, if you like,
tasked with or given credit foror side of our roles to do to do

(27:22):
more at the time, maybefrustrations, but looking back,
gosh, quite a learning really.

SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
A massive learning.
I mean, I learnt aspects of whatdoes a good line manager look
like.
Uh what and you're not consciousof it per se at the same time.
Right, but on reflection, um,particularly in agency land
where you've got someoverbearing twap who's telling

(27:50):
you, uh, yeah, this has to bedone like last week, you're not
going anywhere until this isdone, we're paying a fortune for
you, la la la la la la la.
And just nonsense.
Yeah, that's agency land, right?

SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
commercial work, isn't it, to a degree.

SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
Which is kind of nuts.
But we were at the I guess theoriginal dot com boom, right?

SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
Oh my goodness, yeah.
It was gonna be the it was thenext big thing and it was gonna
change the world.

SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
Right.
So I mean, for for folks whodon't realise this, everything,
particularly the airline andtravel sector, was was all call
centre.
Yeah.
If you if you had a website atall, yeah, good luck.
It it wasn't anything pretty.
I don't think British Airwaysactually owned the domain name
BA.com.
I think it was Bell Atlanticoriginally, and then suddenly it

(28:43):
became available and someonebought it, and that was great,
but then the features andfunctionality were very, very
limited, just ABA journeys.
You know, like ABA for those whoaren't familiar, you start
somewhere, you go somewhere, andthen you come back to the place
that you started, right?
Good ones, yeah.
Showing our age.
Well, you know, but the internetwas yeah, just there.

SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
And we were I remember selecting the colour
palette for the um for the GUI,as we used to call it in those
days.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And having great fun naming theum the colour palette, you know,
things like puff powder yellowand things like that that just
for fun.

SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
I mean, then you know, all of that awesome work,
which was so formative.
Yeah.
Right?
And so you'd come from a very,very studious academic, but born
out of your own creativity.
Then was there a space inbetween the academia and BA?
Just I guess chronologchronologically.

SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Yeah.
Um, so I did my I entered St.
Martin's and did a BA on NoseTextile Design, which was
wonderful.
Then I did a year of teachertraining fun, funnily enough,
and I don't get often get totalk about that part.
Of it, but that was again verystretching and really
interesting.
And I I actually took on theteacher training thinking just

(30:06):
in case, you know.
Um I was offered a job.
PGS E is that the is that yeah,PGC, so postgraduate in
education, in art and design.
But before I finished it, I wasoffered a job.
Um, and again, I was reluctant.
I felt, oh my goodness, I'm soyoung, and in you know, do I
really want and I knew I alwaysknew I didn't want to be stuck
in teaching.

(30:27):
I know that's a maybe I didn'tsort of negativise it, but it's
true.
And I did, so I took it on, tookthe job, and it was a wonderful
selective Sikh form college.
And oh my goodness, the studentswere so talented and they were
painting better than I, youknow, I could.
They were fantastic, so that wasreally good.
But uh again, I I just knewthere was more to do at that
point.

(30:47):
So then I did about a year and ahalf of teaching, bit of acting,
head of department, which wasagain a nice endorsement.
Um, and I left to do a master'sat Goldsmiths, right?
Which was just one of the mostfantastic of creative expression
years that you could ever askfor.
There were no limits.
It was a fine art-based sort oftextile master's, which meant

(31:12):
that you could just explore.
And there was no it was a bitdifferent to St.
Martin's St.
Martin's in that there werethere was no sort of, you know,
we're going to showcase you atthe end of this.
It was just all about you, and Ihad the best fun.
I really explored my inherentcreativity in a in a very deep
way.
Left Goldsmiths, and actually,that gap that you're talking

(31:33):
about was just pavement poundingvery early on.
I was knocking on doors becauseI I was at that point, then I
went in as a sort of create uhfreelance designer.
So knocked on the doors of thelikes of Liberty and actually
got a mini collection intoLiberty quite early on.
So I was quite pleased withmyself.
It was under the Liberty label,and I was still quite green, you

(31:57):
know, commercially.
So I found myself doing a lot inthe hope, you know, of more
work.
And as I say, you're not you'renot necessarily very uh aware at
that point of of um being takenadvantage of.
Um, but anyway, the promise wasthat there'd be a second
collection coming, but under myown label.
So I was very excited forsomething like that so early on.

(32:20):
Um, but then actually, I thinkmy CV went in on the Friday and
on the Monday, Liberty weretaken over, one of their very
many takeovers, but they weretaken over by a Japanese
consortium, so the whole teamwas essentially disbanded.
And that was quite an earlylearning of the kind of
instability of creative life, ifyou like, and create even jobs

(32:42):
in in the creative fields, and Ithought, oh god, this is
interesting.
Um, so yeah, but I did get somereally interesting projects.
I did uniform design for theRadisson Hotel group.
They didn't really have anidentity then of any kind.
They were down on bathroad then.
So I was introduced to Jasminethe thing's wife at the time,
and I did uh I pulled together abit of a visual identity and

(33:04):
just did a very simple uniformsort of uh set for them.
And I that that went that rolledout, then it went into
production, which was reallynice.
So did some bits and pieces, andI was just feeling a little bit
unstable with the whole thing,and and actually it was slight
serendipity, if you like.
Uh I'd moved to West London withmy husband, and you know, we

(33:26):
were just sort of talking aboutsort of the amount of people
that worked in British Airwaysthat lived in West London.

SPEAKER_03 (33:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
And um, I just got a bit curious, and I was had been
watching news excerpts about thenew visual identity BA changing,
it's kind of um creative thewhole utopia identity was
launching then.
Anyway, I just sort of did a bitof digging and realized they
there was an in in-house designteam.

(33:54):
And that's when I thought, okay,that would be really fun.
So just applied for the graduatescheme.
Right.
And not expecting very much.
And it was convoluted in that Igot onto the graduate programme
um and actually spent a fewyears doing lots of things
around the company, includingBA.com, before I actually
entered the actual designmanagement team, which is where

(34:17):
I was delivered all the lovelyfun interiors and uh But that
was great.

SPEAKER_01 (34:22):
I mean, I can still re God, it's just come back to
me.
I used farting around doing whatI know what even that took a
while, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (34:28):
Even to get to the right department and do the
right job within BA to a while,I had to be really sort of
patient.

SPEAKER_01 (34:36):
No, but I I do like, you know, I didn't even know
we'd call them scamps.
I just do some nonsense, right?
And I I remember taking laptopsover and sticking them under
your nose and saying, What doyou think of this?
Is this alright or not?
And just having you around tolike, you know, just brainstorm
with or get that critique thatfirst hand, because I we all

(35:00):
knew Jag, and we all knew Jagwas the cr official creative
person, right?
Um, and lovely, always soapproachable, always so polite,
well-mannered, respected, um,and it was just so easy for you
know, a half-wit like me whocame from engineering, got into

(35:23):
systems, and now he's fartingaround in, you know, making
banners and um whatever otherartifacts and um I think well
not think I know, you know, butjust the inherent creative, um a
sort of uh what's the word?

SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
Um a closet creative, I used to call you,
because um I think that's how webonded, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 (35:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
Um those creative conversations almost energized
us.
Of course, because it was such agood thing.

SPEAKER_01 (35:53):
You know, and then just to have you and a couple of
other people just kind of wewere having fun.
We were just kind of but you youwere my you know um closet
mentor.
I'd I'd be yeah, if Jack thinksthis is good, then it's gotta be
I'm I'm heading in the rightdirection.
Because I didn't have thatacademic background that you
did.
I was just doing things and youknow, like much and my music at

(36:17):
the time was improvisation.
And if somebody liked it, thengreat.
If they didn't, yeah, that'sfine as well.
But I didn't have that personalaffinity with the work that I
had much, much later on.
You know, so BA was wonderfuland that was great, but then you
went you went to Virgin, right?

SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Yes, I did.
I mean, um we left.
I thank the Lord, fell pregnantwith the triplets.
Yay! And that was uh 2015.
That's uh unfortunately it wasvery ill during the pregnancy,
so I kind of sort of sloped off,really.
You know, went off buteverybody's wondering, where's
Jack on at BA, you know?
I think you're entitled, to befair.

(36:57):
I was underground, justunderground, just with terrible
sickness.
So, and uh and while I was onand and then it was wonderful
actually.
I think it was one of mycolleagues who at a team meeting
finally announced that um by theway, Jag's um had a baby.
Oh, actually, Jags had triplets.
Yeah, it became quite good newsat BA, which was really nice to

(37:18):
hear on the other side.
And then I think duringmaternity, um, the opportunity
to leave BA came up.
You know, because there wererounds of severance going on,
and obviously I I grabbed itwith both hands because it would
give me more time with the boysto think about things.
And I mean, as soon as theycame, they were the center of

(37:38):
the universe and they alwayshave been ever since.
So even till this day, I willpick things that work around
them, you know.
Of course.
It means working into the nightsometimes and it means working
early hours, but that's what Iwill I will I never wanted to
look back and think, okay, Itook that ahead of them.
So I'm telling you this for areason, because I was on
maternity, took the severance,which was wonderful, and had a

(38:01):
blissful couple of years withthe boys at home without
thinking about too much else.
Playing around with ideas, butnot much else.
And then I was sort of tapped onthe shoulder about Virgin, and a
very similar job came up atVirgin as design manager there.
And you will know that there arevery few design jobs like this
in the whole of the countrybecause there are only two

(38:22):
airlines.

SPEAKER_01 (38:23):
Next to no.

SPEAKER_00 (38:24):
On paper, it was written for me.
Um, and they were about todeliver their A350s, they'd just
taken charge of A350s and theywere re-redesigning their
interior completely.
Right.
And I was really reluctant, andI'd had a couple of calls from
from Ettie had um the MiddleEast.
I think a few of us had actuallybecause there was a bit of a

(38:45):
cull at the time at BA, so a fewof us were approaching the
Middle East airlines, and I justculled those conversations very
early on because at the time Isaid, no, I don't, you know, I
don't want to have thisconversation because I don't
want to be tempted because I'vegot these lovely little babies
and that that they are my world.
Bubas.
And then when Virgin came along,it was my mum.

(39:05):
My mother actually said sheencouraged me to do it.
Um, she said, take it on,because whilst you're in this
lovely bubble, you know, it'snot forever, and you haven't
spent all those years buildingskills to drop them now.
So she's a wise woman, right?

SPEAKER_03 (39:20):
Wise mums.

SPEAKER_00 (39:22):
Wise mums.
Um, so I did.
I think I always knew it wasgoing to be a bit of a struggle
just in terms of logistics.
But I had the most wonderfulconversation with again one of
the most wonderful bosses.
I think there's it's reallyimportant to note and
acknowledge that whenever goodleaps happen in life, especially

(39:45):
in careers, there's always awonderful person at the base of
that.
And Jeremy Brown, he interviewedme over the phone actually.
We had a chat over the phone.
I was in my garden, and one ofthe first things I said to him
was, Well, you know, I'm justgoing to need so much
flexibility because of thesebabies.
And he's like, Well, you know,do what work from where you
want, just deliver my thing.

(40:05):
So um, I did.
I joined I joined Virgin.
I was I inherited a team.
Well done, Mr.
Brown.
Yeah, hadn't been a structurefor a while.
It was a wonderful project.
So in a nutshell, ship-shapedeverything and brought in a
wonderful agency called FactoryDesign, and we started playing
around with ideas for interiorsbecause at the time Virgin were

(40:25):
ready to give up their bar onboard, which is what they were
famous for.
And we were looking to sort ofcoin essentially a new space,
new public space on board theaircraft where people could
gather.

SPEAKER_01 (40:38):
Sorry to interrupt, Jack.
Just just to be clear foreveryone who might be listening,
this isn't just softfurnishings.
We're talking about the entirecabin experience.
From scratch.
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (40:54):
Oh, it was it was fabulous.
I mean, you know, where in BA wetended to work on as I mean, we
had some wonderful projectsworking on BA first, working on,
you know, working with the likesof Anja Heimarch, working with
amazing designers and designagencies.
But here I was given this kindof blank slate and worked with
these wonderful guys at FactoryDesign.

(41:16):
And we coined a brand new spaceon board.
Absolutely.
We strategized, we createdexperiences.
I worked with engineering,always had an affinity for
engineers and um worked reallyclosely.
And yeah, we we createdessentially we created the loft
on board.
The loft became the new sort ofsocial space on board, the 850s
at Virgin.
So that felt really good.

(41:37):
So long brands.
Virgin was a buzz because it wassmall enough there for people to
sort of give you leeway toactually, you know, act on your
instincts.
And I think that that reallygrew my confidence.
But about a year or so into it,I think I was getting uh
physically a little bit burntout just from the logistics of

(42:01):
getting there, even though therewas lots of flexibility.
And I felt myself thinking, youknow, I always said babies
first, and this is getting, youknow, more intense.
So once that was delivered,again there was a bit of a
restructure going on at Virgin.
I was actually offered whatwould have been my dream job
before Bubba's.
And that was to take on, I wasalready head of um air, design

(42:25):
in the air, sorry, aircraftdesign, and I was offered the
job of ground, air, lounges,everything.
So essentially, head of design.
I was handed it on a plate, andum, as I said, back in the day
would have been at the ultimatedream, it would have been the
pinnacle for me.
But I just knew in my heart ofhearts that if I took it on, I'd

(42:46):
want to do it heart and soul,and that wasn't going to work
with the children, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (42:51):
That would have been in full jag.

SPEAKER_00 (42:54):
Full jag.
Would have been full jag, andfull jag needed to be with the
Bubbers first.

SPEAKER_01 (42:58):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
Um to this day, I actually remember sitting next
to this MacBook and pressing thebutton, declining the role, the
offer.
And I remember being on thephone to my now business
partner, Sue, saying, Sue, I'mabout to decline.
I'm about to decline.
And I did it.
And actually, I was so scared todo it.

(43:20):
But once I didn't- I'm feelingscared now.
So scared, scared of myself inthe am I gonna regret this?
This is a once-in-a-lifetimeopportunity, and it's probably
something you would have diedfor at BA, you know?
And yes, in terms of a creativerole within any organization
where you'd have oversight ofevery touch point, every

(43:42):
customer touch point, and youyou'd actually see it delivered
because it was an organizationthat did thrive on delivery, you
know.
Yeah, very much so.
It was scary, it was scary, butI can hand on heart tell you I
never regretted that decisionbecause of where I am now.
Um, and that kind of spiritualkind of guide or whatever you

(44:03):
want to call it, it it I knewthat if I put the children at
the heart of everything, thingswould be okay.
And actually, very quickly, Igot some consultancy roles.
Um, probably within the nextweek or so, actually, I was
offered some consultancy for anaviation supply company.
So, doing actually um supplyingdesign into airlines.

(44:27):
So I worked for a company calledWatermark, did some contracts
for them with some really funkyairlines, actually, which was
good.
Um, and actually went back intoVirgin, went back into V uh VA
as a supplier, which wasinteresting.
That's but again, got to becreative from the other side of
the table, you know, learnedwhat it was like to be that
person that wasn't, you know,called back for like three weeks

(44:50):
when you're waiting on adecision from stakeholder.

SPEAKER_01 (44:55):
Right, those conversations with those
conversations.
Whoever it was who was okay,maybe they were aware of your
history, your prominence, maybenot.
But then, okay, so you're asupplier and this is what we
need.
And you you're I'm assuminghere, but you're sitting there
thinking, I was in your chairnot that long ago.

SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
Absolutely not so long ago.
And it was a great asset to thesupplier because they they had
my head, my brain.
I literally could brain dumpwhat the airline was thinking.
And actually, even now, I stilldo creative projects for a
supplier agency whenever theywant art and design for their
pictures or design creative,sort of creative or design

(45:34):
strategy for gifting products,whatever.
I still work with them, which isreally nice actually.
And without question, we alwaysstart by using a a bit of a Jag
brain dump.
You know, what would jag sittingon the other side of the table
want from this brief?
You know?
What's your proposal?

SPEAKER_01 (45:53):
You've you've earned that credibility.
You've earned that gravitas.

SPEAKER_00 (45:57):
It's amazing to use it actually.
It's really nice to be able touse it.

SPEAKER_01 (46:01):
Well, yeah, but you don't take it for granted.
And what I'm hearing is you'restill so respectful to that
process.

SPEAKER_00 (46:12):
You have to be.
You have to be, because we knowwe know from the other side,
don't we?
We we and even today, you know,if I'm sitting here waiting on a
call from a from a client,thinking, Oh, we haven't heard,
have we, have we won this pitch,have we done this?
You sort of step back and youthink, well, I remember how many
loops we used to have to, youknow, jump through, loops we had
to jump through to get a get ananswer from some senior person

(46:36):
sitting in their office.
Sometimes not so.
It gives you that insight, yeah,it gives you that insight to
know it's actually often notpersonal.
People are just trying to dotheir day job and a ton of
other, you know, other jobs toboot.
But um, yeah, back to Virgin.
It was it was a wrench to sortof give it up, but equally it
was the beginning of everything,really, I think.

(46:56):
And then after those couple ofcontracts, COVID hit, and
actually what one really pivotalmoment for me was uh securing um
uh a piece of work to deliver aline of silk uh scarves um for a
luxury fragrance house calledBeaudeser.

(47:16):
I was gonna bring them upbecause you know, whilst the
product development side ofthings and product design was
really interesting, of course,my heart and soul is all about
textile design.
So when someone comes along andsays, yes, design a line of silk
scars for luxury fragrance, Imean, you know, come true.
So um just pre-COVID, I managedto design the entire collection,

(47:37):
create the strategy for it,design the collection, got our
work in lovely, you know,beautiful.
I mean, they were quite prolificin Harida anyway, but to have my
sketches showcased in thewindow.
That felt good, you know, all ofthat.
And then the line was ready,pretty much ready.
Then we did a bit of a softlaunch on the website.

(47:58):
The core customer for thatfragrance line is in the Middle
East and and still is.
But then COVID hit, so the linewas just put on hold for a
little while whilst COVID didits thing.
I was kept on, which waswonderful, really nice for me.
But what that mean meant wasthat I had income and I didn't
really need to do anything foranyone.

(48:19):
So I thought, and it wasactually my lovely husband who
said, you know, you're doingthis for other people and you
keep doing it for other people.
When are you going to do it foryourself?
You know, when are you finallygoing to drop a pen and do it
for yourself?
By this time, I had what wasreally nice was I'd I'd I'd
through that project, I'dgarnered a sense of the whole

(48:41):
cycle of production as well, interms of developing my art,
drawing the art, developing thedesigns, and then actually
getting them manufactured.

SPEAKER_01 (48:48):
So this whole 360 aspect of how your career has
developed, right?
Yeah.
Again, it's going back to thattheme.

SPEAKER_03 (49:01):
Yeah.
Right?

SPEAKER_01 (49:05):
Learning.
You're constantly constantlytrying, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (49:08):
Well, I need to deliver this, but what are the
skills, what are the skill gapsthat I have that I need to fill
in order to deliver?
Okay, so let's go and find sometime to upskill.
You know, I'm I still up untillast year, I was still nervous
about InDesign, would youbelieve?
But I upskilled and suddenly mypresentations and I've done some
brand deliverables for people,and just that little tiny

(49:31):
upskill to InDesign has elevatedmy presentations to another
level, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (49:36):
I mean, I'm I'm I've mentioned this in uh on other
episodes of of Dubai.
It's like I'm stillflabbergasted that people who
don't have craft legacy, whocan't do, yeah, get into
leadership positions, andthey're supposed to be looking

(49:58):
after those who can do, right?
What's what's your take on that?
Do you have a take on that?

SPEAKER_00 (50:06):
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, um we lived it, didn'twe?
We lived it.
We lived having to go andpresent all products or
beautiful pieces of work thatwe'd put our heart and soul into
and using all this lovelyknowledge that we've discussed,
and you'd have to go and presentit to somebody who was two or
three notches above you becausethat's corporate life and that's

(50:28):
the corporate structure, andthen being told, oh, oh, it's
not a colour I usually like, youknow, oh don't fancy that one.
And it could be honestly, youyou I've heard things like that
said, and yeah, it's reallydifficult.
It's really difficult toswallow.
It's the nature of the corporatelife, unfortunately, and there's

(50:48):
nothing you we all have our weall have, we know what we feel
about it.
I think it's terribly sad, butbecause certainly design is
often an adjunct, isn't it, inin in corporate structures.
So, and also I find generally, Ialways say this that design is
so subjective, right?
So, unless you've got completeownership of of a design

(51:10):
project, you're never going tobe able to just deliver what you
really want to deliver becauseit goes through so many
iterations, it goes through somuch feedback for the
incorporate structure.
People feedback for the sake offeeding back.
They don't even know whatthey're they're critiquing.
One hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 (51:30):
Someone's put them on a panel, they're on you know,
an email of an email or a listof things.

SPEAKER_00 (51:36):
They want to feel useful.
They want to feel that they'vecontributed, you know.
You know, decision by consensus.
To answer your question, my takeon it is that's corporate life.
And that's why you you need tojump out and do it for yourself.
Because then that is the nearestyou're going to get to a

(51:57):
complete cycle of my germ of anidea, my evolution of the idea,
my finished design, and thenhere you are, lovely customer.
There you go.
But I'll just caveat thatbecause even that client, as
you'll know, I'm sure you'veexperienced this.
You know, you you'll have nightswhere you'll just cry because
you've created somethingwonderful that fits their brief

(52:19):
perfectly, and uh they'll comeback and say, actually, I think
it was better if we, you know,when we did it last year and we
did it like this.
So things like that will happen.
Customer is always king when itcomes to commercial design.
You have to suck it up.
But doing it for yourself meansthat at least you have you're
driven by your passion and toget from your seed to get to the

(52:39):
customer just through you,that's worthwhile, you know.
And I think we we were close atVirgin, I think, of all of the
places.
We were close there, and it wasreally satisfying.
And I think I was lucky enoughto work with such wonder you
talk about humble but brilliantpeople, the guys at factory
design.
Brilliant.
I mean, they were the guys thatwere behind interiors of

(53:01):
Concord, you know, that's howlong they'd been working.
But they'd their they'd kepttheir um agency small and
perfectly formed, and they'restill really respected.
So learning from those guys, youknow, people like that was
really fortunate.
And I'm still friends with themtoday.
So that was really good.
But yeah, I think pressing thebutton on Virgin and then just
launching straight in and thendoing those, you know, doing

(53:24):
those uh working through thosecontracts was really a nice
transition because it halfwayhouse between going out
completely on my own and thenCOVID hit and post-COVID and
during COVID, I opened um StudioJack Sarah and I started with
the line of scarves, myeponymous collection.
Because that I couldn't think ofwhere else to start.
And I thought, well, you know, Ilove silk, always have, and I

(53:47):
love printing on silk, and Ilove, you know, art and art of
the silk is a perfectcombination to showcase what I
do.
But again, that was what fourand a half years ago now, and um
things have evolved so much.
But talking of what you've justsaid about full circle moments,
there are so many becausethrough working with Sue, who's

(54:09):
my project director, and sheactually used to work for supply
into British Airways when I wasdesign manager there.
So we sort of struck up a verygood, good friendship.
And um, she's got the now that Ithink I do lack a little bit,
which is the project, you know,keeping a project management
schedule, schedules, numbers,all of that, you know, creative

(54:31):
people don't like that stuff.
So I'm so lucky to have herbecause she is a brilliant
project manager.

SPEAKER_01 (54:38):
I think that's one of the reasons why I get um a
lot of people get irritated withme, because they see the
interesting haircut and theythink, okay, he's a creative,
but then they don't know thatI'm a stupidly qualified avionic
test systems engineer and I knowthe tech.

SPEAKER_00 (54:55):
You have to have skill.
But you in order to deliver thebig projects, yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
And build the trust, you know.
It's it's lovely presentingbeautiful things to people, but
if you can't deliver againsttheir brief, then what good is
it to them?
You know, they've got they'vegot pressure, they've got
commercial targets to hit,they've got customers to please.

SPEAKER_01 (55:15):
But this whole holistic view, yeah, right,
which clearly you have, becauseyou've had the opportunity, and
if the opportunity wasn't there,definitely it sounds to me that
you created the opportunities.
You've said no.
You have to politely,professionally, and you've gone

(55:36):
off and you've done what youfelt was right for you at that
time.
And that's you spoke aboutbravery.
That's bravery, that'sintegrity, that's you know, not
being some kind of stuck upwhatever.
It's I can do this, this is thespace I want to be in, and okay,

(55:58):
we're we're we're gonna seewhere this goes.

SPEAKER_00 (56:02):
I remember so I got a piece, the the first kind of I
suppose, sort of um what's theword?
Gravitas piece of the firstgravitas contract I got was with
um the Royal Automobile Club inLondon.
It was a small piece of work,but really put us on the map in
some respects.

(56:22):
And and they commissioned me todo to design a scarf based on
their pool room, which is ifyou're the great and the good,
you're a member of the RoyalAutomobile Club.
There's a beautiful pool roomwith a mosaic, an Egyptian
mosaic uh theme in there.
So I sort of did that for them,and that was really nice, and
that really started gettingpeople to think actually she can
work to a brief.

(56:43):
And then with Cunard, I think Ipitched for an entire year
before I got a chance to reallygo in and and and have a go at
that.
So it took a year of knocking onthat door to say, okay, give it
give me a chance, I can do I cando big gifts for you.
I can do it all.

SPEAKER_01 (57:04):
That passion, that wanting, that desire to get in
there and still get in there,and not just sit around and rest
on your laurels.
But no, I I think I can addvalue there and that
perseverance.

SPEAKER_00 (57:20):
That's awesome! And then what happens, I think, is
the points of strength sort ofsurface organically.
So the reason I'm saying that iswhat was really interesting was
I started off with thiscollection of scarves, thinking
I'm going to do direct acustomer.
I'll probably the collectionwill probably evolve into other

(57:41):
pieces like garments orwhatever, and that's where I'll
be.
But actually, and I think I toldwe were talking about this the
other day, what really startedgrowing based on my skill set
and Sue's skill set and ournetwork, networks are so
important because the trust isthere.
You know, we can talk, you andI, because the trust is there
because we've known each otherforever.

(58:02):
Uh, and we've seen each other inaction, you know, in very
difficult environments back atback at British Airways, for
example.
So I think um networks are huge,and I found so many full circle
moments.
And I think the business is kindof it kind of took on its its uh
its own life and grew in thatother direction that I didn't
expect.

(58:22):
So actually now business tobusiness and selling into
clients or doing bespoke pro Ithink bespoke projects are what
has has really captivated a lotof our clients because what I've
now come to realise, and Suesaid this to me, and I and I
found it hard to believe becauseyou don't you go all slug about
it, but she was like she used tokeep saying, you know, you are

(58:45):
at the center of this and youdon't realize that it's it's
your art that people areinterested in.
And um, when I started tobelieve that, actually, the
product that we design is almosta vehicle.
The selling point, the USP, isthe bespoke art, and now we're
setting our stall on that,really.
So every the idea is to createcorporate gifts, merchandise,

(59:09):
customer gifts, developed onmaterials that can stand the
test of time and not go intolandfill and pollute the oceans
if possible.
Done in a, you know, createsomething that wants people want
to keep and cherish.
You know, we've all seen back inBritish Airways, for example,
perfect example, by the end ofdeveloping customer gifts for

(59:32):
for premium cabins for first,for example, how many times did
we hear our customers are justleaving their product on the
seat?
You know, they're not eventaking it anymore because it had
been dumbed down to a pointwhere it was essentially tat.
You know, people didn't want itin their wardrobes anymore or
cupboards or whatever.
I mean, I can recall thatlearning, that learning has been

(59:54):
huge for us.

SPEAKER_01 (59:55):
Exclusivity, that quality, that level of curation.
They become historicalartifacts.
So I can recall, you know, thoseawesome in-flight bags and I can
see.
Yeah.
And I would, you know, on eBayor whatever.
And sometimes people arguingover and fighting over.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:15):
And it was that was the genius of Anja Heimarch.
And that was her vision.
You know, she's one of mydefinitely one of my heroes.
Um, and she you can learn a lotfrom people like her.
But all those learnings we'vetaken into the business, and we
try and approach our clients andand talk about that and say,
first of all, let's get underthe skin of your DNA.
Let's really celebrate yourbrand, if it is a white label

(01:00:37):
piece.
And then again, that chameleonlike quality in terms of being
able to draw that out through myart and drawing.
And then try and use substratesand materials that, you know,
aren't going to necessarilydamage where you can.
And then lastly, create aproduct that's useful, you know,
and if they don't want to keepit themselves, I'll give it to

(01:00:57):
someone or you know, all ofthat.
So that's really evolved reallynicely, I think, over the last
couple of years.
And that's where we see we'dlike to sort of build our sort
of client base or my clientbase.
And then and then through that,through Jag Zera, having had
these sort of charitablepartnerships evolve has been so

(01:01:18):
satisfying and energizing in away that nothing else can
compete with, really.
So the elephant charity family.
I was taking my yeah, nowfiance.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:30):
Yay, lovely restaurant in town, and we
wandered past this.
We didn't know what it was.
It was one of those eggs, right?
And I said, Yeah, my mate Jagdid one of them.
And my lovely days, I'm Jag?
Come on.
It was a tell story kind ofthing.
And tell us about that.

(01:01:51):
How did that come into play?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:53):
So I had done, I I was sort of have a friend,
friends, lots of friends,obviously BA.
Um, one of my dear friends,she's prolific in philanthropy.
She won't mind me mentioningher, Maggie Draco.
And when she left BA, she reallypicked up on her charitable work
and she she supports many causesbecause she used to run the gold

(01:02:13):
guest list at British Airways,and one of her passions is
philanthropy.
And she is on the board of theBritish Asian Trust, who have an
offshoot called the ElephantFamily.
The Elephant Family is a charitythat was essentially set up by
Mark Shand, the brother ofCamilla.
He travelled in India back inthe day and fell in love not

(01:02:34):
only with India, but fell inlove with an elephant actually
called Tara.
And Tara was an elephant who hadbeen abused, as a lot of
elephants were in those days intimes of overworked and you
know, on her sort of last legs.
He he pretty much nursed her,but in the process fell for her.
And he wrote a book called UmTravels with My Elephant.

(01:02:55):
And he set up the elephantcharity dedicated to the
conservation, initially more tosort of supporting elephants
that had been sort of, you know,overworked and abused in their
lifetimes.
But actually, the charity grewto what is now a conservation
charity across India, Asia.
And um coexistence now hasbecome, you know, the broader

(01:03:17):
theme.
So it's about teaching villagevillagers, humans, and animals
to coexist in a way that it'sbeneficial to both, because of
course, over time, you know,roads were cut into habitats
where they shouldn't be.
I mean, it's a long story, butessentially it's a wonderful
charity.
Now, the tragedy of it is thathe passed away in an accident
about 10 years ago, actually,whilst it was a big egg hunt in

(01:03:40):
New York, but the legacycontinues.
And uh, I think he because ofthe sort of royal connection,
it's a charity that's wellsupported as well.
But what they do reallybeautifully, and where I come
into it, convoluted way oftelling you this, but where I
come into it is that um I'd donesome art for Maggie and I'd done

(01:04:01):
some creative work for her, andshe got to know me and my work a
bit better than back in the day.
And she endorsed me, and I wasinvited uh to design one of
these eggs.
So they have various art, publicart projects.
Sometimes it's a charitableball.
Every other year at the moment,it's it's a big egg hunt.
Other times it's a tuk-tuk raceacross Asia.

(01:04:24):
But they it there's always alovely collaboration with
artists.
Um I was thrilled because thelikes of artists that they've
worked with in the past and thatthey that are essentially
patrons are the likes of SabiasArchi, Tracy Yeming, all of
these wonderful names.
They've all kind of been a partof this journey.
So I was thrilled.
I thought, gosh, I'm not gonnaturn this down.

(01:04:44):
I'll I will make time.
You just give me the egg.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:47):
I saw I saw some footage, I couldn't even to my
shame, I can't tell you where Isaw it from.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:54):
But you were on all fours and just doing your thing
with this egg.
And what what struck me was theintensity, just the intensity of
your focus, right?
And in in in just doing that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:13):
And I saw as what another one of those meditation,
meditation, and also this thingthat I was saying to you before
that what's even one morewonderful about doing the work
with them is that they uh theycelebrate everything I do for
the sake of my art.
So this is the one space whereI'm not working to somebody

(01:05:34):
else's DNA or delivering, muchas that's pleasurable and good
in other ways.
This is me.
They just want they want me tobe free to celebrate myself and
my my way of working and howeverthat evolves.
There's a two parts to the egghunt, actually.
It was wonderful.
So I was invited to do the firstegg, which of course was
wonderful.
So I had my little, I'd beenbrewing these themes already,

(01:05:57):
but then I got a call and whatthe elephant family, because
they obviously have uh partnersall across the arts and and you
know, various brands.
Um, and I got a call saying thatmy portfolio had been shared
with the National Theatre andthey really loved they'd love to
collaborate on an egg.
So I was pushed for time by thisstage, really pushed for time,

(01:06:18):
but I could not say no.
And the reason I couldn't say nowas because there was another
layer to this where the projectwas in conjunction with um a
school under Grenfell uh inLondon.
And the idea was to work ontheir outreach program with the

(01:06:38):
children to create an egg forthe National Theatre uh based on
play that was at the time, andthat's where my obviously spoke
to my heart, you can imagine,right, at the deepest level, and
it was rushed and it I didn'thave very much time, but I just
thought, okay, how am I gonna dothis?
Um, and I just formulated theworkshop.
Um, I just conducted theworkshop.

(01:06:59):
I thought, whether the egg comesin time, I don't I don't care,
I've got to do this workshopbecause I didn't want to let
these children down.
And I kid you not, it was one ofthe most pleasurable two hours
creatively that I've had inrecent times because it looked
like it.
Their eyes were sparkling by theend of it, you know, the
beginning of the workshop, itwas a typical art lesson, you

(01:07:20):
know, this woman's took up, youknow, what we're gonna do.
And I just remembered why Iloved teaching so much because
by the end of it, they were, youknow, they were cutting out
shapes and they were drawingsymbols from the play, and you
know, I I made sure they stoodup and talked about their work.
And before the end of it, theywere all, can I talk, miss?
Can I talk?
Can I tell you what I've done?

(01:07:41):
So one thing I knew was thatthis egg had to be about them.
And again, channeling thatchameleon, like commercial brief
approach to things, I thought,how do I depict to the naivety
and the the innocence of theirwork on my egg?
So I thought, well, youtranslate what they've done.
So I laid out all of theirsketches, their little cutouts,

(01:08:03):
their drawings, and I justthought, okay, throw them on the
egg.
And that's what I did.
So that was an homage to them.
And it was, yeah, it makes mewell up a bit actually, because
it was uh a real personalachievement.
Yeah, and then that sort of workI'd love to do more of as well.
So time permitting, you know.

(01:08:24):
Um, hopefully we'll do more bitsand pieces like that.
But that was a lovely thing, andand again, that's another sort
of that one is another part thatI can't give up now, you know,
as as much as I want to sort of.
I need to earn money, need tofeed the bubbles.
Don't want to give up on thatcharitable, charitable work
because it also speaks to me.
They celebrate art, but the artfeeds the conservation, and the

(01:08:46):
conservation is what we need forour children.
So kind of brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:50):
Brilliant, brilliant, again, circles,
circles everywhere.
I'm gonna shift gears a littlebit.
Right?
We've got this wonderful thing,genuinely, it is a wonderful
thing, called artificialintelligence.
And it's a question that I'vebroached with pretty much
everyone who I'm speaking to.
There's a lot of ambiguity withit, because it is developing.

(01:09:14):
But with ambiguity, if there'stoo much ambiguity, then you
move into the realms of anxiety,which is one aspect of a new
technology paradigm andeverything that that brings.
But an awful lot of my peers umand just design folks, broadly
speaking, you know, we're allgonna be out of a job,

(01:09:34):
apparently, right?
Uh the robots are gonna takeover, creativity's just not
going to exist.
Where's Jagzera's brilliant,brilliant brain in that space?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:49):
Yeah, I I mean, maybe it's coming at it from a
naive point of view, I don'tknow, because yeah, I need to
educate myself more on it, Ithink.
But I think it's not a thing tobe afraid of, honestly.
I think embrace what you can andand actually certainly when
you're running a creativebusiness, embrace aspects of it

(01:10:10):
that speed up things, quitehonestly.
When you're doing a paragraph todescribe something in in
beautiful language, you know,use a bit of bit of uh narrative
because I don't want to wastefive hours of my time trying to
duck my brain and write thiscreative flow.
What I've seen in terms of theactual physical output of the

(01:10:31):
art from AI at the moment, Idon't think is of a high
quality.
So I don't feel threatened bythat.
The other thing I've noticed isthat as much as as fast as that
is evolving, people are stillyearning, and and maybe more so
because of it, people areyearning for the artisan.
Because what you'll always findis in anything that's AI

(01:10:54):
generated, it does lack soul.
And that's not a tangible thing,but it's it's not tangible, it's
not palpable, but you knowsomething's missing, you know.
Feel it.
So you feel it.
You feel it.
You might not even be able todescribe it in words, but I
think people are cravingconnection, soul, and that je ne

(01:11:14):
soy quoi that runs through thefingers of every artist, n
artisan, right?
I think there'll be enough spacefor everything and everyone.
We just gotta keep following ourpassion.
We've come this far.
Why give up now?

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:27):
Very, very eloquently put.
I think you're right.
I think the tech is providingspeed, right?
Not velocity, as the engineeringpart of my brain says.
Speed is there, but I don'tthink anyone's got a handle on
direction.
And then when you combine bothof those, yeah, you're going
very quickly, but then to whatend?

(01:11:49):
And personalization, umautomation, which you've touched
on, fine.
I get that.
That that's as long as the datais accurate, yeah, then what is
automated should be fine, shouldbe fine.
Um, but what happens topersonalization?
What happens to artisans?

(01:12:10):
Because like it or not, humanbeings are we've got this
inbuilt bias.
And look, if you go into retailbanking, if you go to an
airline, if you go to, you know,any online we're selling you
something, they all, brandingaside and assets aside, they all

(01:12:33):
are using the same gridframeworks.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:36):
Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:37):
Right?
The fact that the the what am Itrying to say?
The design systems invariablybehave exactly the same.
And the personalization is wherethe real value comes into play.
And so this the bias that I wasalluding to is if I see

(01:12:57):
something now, digital orotherwise, I've actually, once
I've got over myself and oh mygod, that's amazing.
The first question that comesinto my little brain is Did a
human do that?
Or did anything?
Yeah.
All of a sudden I'm notappreciating it for what it is,

(01:13:17):
I'm I'm challenging it, I'mquestioning it.
I want to know does that have asoul?

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:26):
Is that inherent human desire for connection,
isn't that?
Yes.
And ultimately we we connect toother human beings before we
connect to anything else.
Um let's put it back in context.
I mean, when I graduated,graphic design was still
conducted on massive tables withfine liners and uh rulers.

(01:13:46):
And within years, all of thatbecame defunct because digital,
you know, the adobes of theworld steamed along.
So everything's evolved, but thecreativity behind those tools
still needs to be there.
So whether you draw with apencil or whether you draw with
a mouse, you know, the soulcomes through because there's a
human at the end of it.

(01:14:06):
Um and I think with AI, if welearn to utilize it and and for
want of a m you know, a betterword, sort of control it to our
own end, then great.
But don't let it usurp becausepeople will start noticing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:23):
I think people already have started to notice.
I even big corporates.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:28):
Yeah, that was interesting that you were
talking about that the otherday.
There's also already that sortof, you know, uh are you just
fobbing us off with a bit, youknow, uh a a quick, you know,
prompt, result of a prompt, oris this something that actually
is worth the money that we'vepaid you?
You know, talking about it inpurely commercial terms, you're
we're all gonna have to keepproving ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:52):
That whole cycle, I don't think, is gonna go away.
I think it's gonna get moreaggressive.
I think artisans like you aregonna be so much in demand.
Hope so.
Well, I yeah.
There's there's thankfully,thankfully, there's there's
there's only one Jag Sierra,right?

(01:15:12):
And I I say that in a very, veryalmost in a as a homage.
Right, because what you do, whatyou represent, it's incredible.
I'm so lucky that I was able toslugging now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:27):
I'm I'm I'm melting like a little slug.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:30):
Behave.
You know, uh just some you know,idiot really, who's playing with
Photoshop elements because Icould and I enjoyed it.
And having someone of your eventhen stature to kind of validate
what I was doing, who has thatnow?

(01:15:50):
It's it's so important, it's soimportant.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:54):
Kindred spirits, I mean, you know, in the spirit
that we've just spoken about,souls connect and you recognize
that in each other.
Creative spirits recognize eachother always.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:05):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:06):
You know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:06):
People process technology in that order.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:09):
A number of times I've heard people say, Well, I
know nothing about design.
And you know, we've even satround a table, round many
tables, where you've got peoplewho are aggressively against
design, actually.
Because their their task is tomaybe deliver something at its
cheapest, fastest, and just getit out there as quickly as

(01:16:30):
possible.
And design was often, couldoften be seen as a bit of a
hindrance.
So you had some very aggressiveanti-design people to deal with.
Um, and I some of the mostpleasurable times back in
corporate life was when actuallyyou soften those people through
I don't want to be patronizedand say through education, but
just to remind them thatactually we can work together.

(01:16:52):
You can still deliver at yourpace.
Design doesn't cost that much ifyou do it well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:59):
Well, it actually saves money.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:02):
Saves money, yeah.
We, you know, we are so used todelivering against tight budgets
until this day I have to deliveragainst tight budgets, and
that's exactly where designcomes in.
So design is your enemy, andexactly that sitting around the
table with engineers whoactually eventually are on side
and you're talking, you know,Tedlar samples with them, or

(01:17:24):
wallpaper samples, or materialsamples, and they're giving
their opinion.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:28):
I mean Can this be done?
Can't it be done?
The whole kind of technology.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:32):
Fantastic, but enjoying it, really enjoying it
as well.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:35):
I mean, one metaphor that I use quite a bit is some
ecosystems, they're just used toI call it bairruti.
You know what bairruti is,right?
So, because you're Punjabi andyou're, you know, um, but for
everyone else, it's stale bread.
And organizations are so used toself-sustaining on stale bread,
and then design comes along, andwe've got this thing called

(01:17:57):
pizza.
And that whole transition, andI've seen it, I've been really,
really lucky that I saw thegerms of that starting at Shell,
where so many, and it's a it's amegacorp.
It's it's insane how big thatplace is.
Yeah, yeah.
They they kind of pizza, no, goaway.

(01:18:19):
No, no, no, no, no.
We we've got Bay Ruti, we've gotstale bread.
And then you wash it under theirnoses, metaphorically, of
course, and then they see Hangon.
What?
That that was done for less.
It's actually way better.
Tastes way better.
Our customers all of thepositives from a commercial

(01:18:42):
perspective.
So it costs less to think about,it costs less to actually
construct the whole delivery andfulfillment of it.
And then, of course, becauseit's internal or you know,
you've got a good relationshipwith an agency, the support
costings are are so much betteras well.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:59):
And this is where I've got to take a moment and
and celebrate you because thisis where you came in.
I mean, these organizations theydidn't even have a sniff of a
design interesting shell, youknow, to actually have user
experience design departmentthat's being run by people like

(01:19:22):
yourself.
That never existed.
That never existed, you know,15, 20 years ago.
And then you're now you enterthis era where suddenly just as
a bystander, you're seeing thesedepartments being built around
oh, we need to think about weneed to think design.
We need to include designthinking in our strategy.

(01:19:42):
Um, and that's where you peoplelike you who've come in and
educated um.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:49):
We've tried.
I mean, the story didn't endparticularly.
I don't think it's ended.
That's wrong.
That's too harsh.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:54):
No, not at all, but but now you've got banks with
design design departments,you've got financial services
that have got design thinking,you know, in their kind of
portfolio.
So I think that's been reallyinteresting, and I think it's
been good up to a point.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:11):
I think it's got overtly democratized.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:14):
Um and I think things very fast nowadays, don't
they?
I mean, that's the other thing.
You were talking about AI, and II often think things go so fast,
whatever whether it's AI,whether it's the advent of a
newfangled anything, it implodesso fast because it goes so fast.
There's no time for things toactually mature.

(01:20:34):
So they kind of self-implodevery quickly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:38):
That's the big risk, I think, that the majority of
people don't see, even when it'sunder their very noses, and they
really, really, hello CEOs,CFOs, CTOs, if you are listening
to this, Jagsera said it foryou.
I've been yapping about it forages, but Jagseer is saying it
for you now.

(01:20:58):
You need the right people tohelp you understand what value
actually is and the value, thecommercial, operational value
that design brings into yourecosystems.
Um you can't have non-designfolk playing at design

(01:21:22):
leadership.
It will implode and it willimplode incredibly quickly.
You need a steady hand, you needthat experience, and the value
that people like Jag, peoplelike Thomas Wilson, Bob Powell,

(01:21:42):
so many, so many names.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:44):
Oh good.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:46):
Maybe.
And it's like, thank you.
It's it's it'll come aroundagain, right?
Things need to go bad beforethey get better, and this kind
of maneuvering right now, whichI think the AI brings, so yeah,
we're getting speed, that'sfantastic.
But you need folks whounderstand HCD, human-centered

(01:22:09):
design.
Because the AI, in whatevertechnology paradigm that we are
all going to be using and areusing, they are serving humans,
right?
It's not the other way around,and it should never ever be the
other way around.
And design, like it or not, uscreative leaders, we understand

(01:22:33):
how design fits with humans, howdesign fits with technology in
order to service humans, and youwill get it.
You you're just tripping overyourselves right now, but yeah,
it'll happen.
But look, we've been yapping forquite some time.
Thank you so I don't know.

(01:22:57):
Thank you for being so sogenerous with your time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:02):
It's been a pleasure, it's been fun.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:04):
With your insight, which is priceless.
No book, no conference, nocourse could even come close to
spending an hour or so with you.
You are thoroughly amazing.

(01:23:26):
Right.
I mean, before I leave you inpeace.
What's next for Jag SearStudios?
What what are you doing?
What do you want to shout about?

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:37):
What do we want to shout about?
We're do we've we're lookingafter our lovely travel clients
and we're building our clientsin travel and hospitality.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:47):
Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:49):
And we just want to continue building that, I think.
It's it's keeping, we don't wantto, again, not not go too fast
that we implode.
We're very selective in ourclients, we're trying to bring a
level of luxury to everything wedesign.
Um, a very exciting nugget thatI would like to share, um, and

(01:24:09):
that's been close to my heartfor many years, and we're just
about to launch it, is acollaboration with a social
enterprise in India.
So whilst I do I create theartwork, which is very bespoke
and very Jagzera, sometimeswe've had to use suppliers that
I don't necessarily feel fitwith us, or maybe we want to,

(01:24:32):
you know, have another layer tothe good that comes out of the
work that we do.
Um, so we're about to launchsome Christmas gifts for a
valued client, which have beendeveloped through this social
enterprise.
And essentially, watch thisspace because we'll be talking
about it on Instagram Lud andLut.
Um, but yeah, it's going to feedhundreds of Artzan families in

(01:24:56):
India as a result.
So um really exciting.
I think that's something that Ifelt was I hadn't achieved that
yet, and I think thatpartnership is gonna grow and
we're gonna do more good.
And the product that we'redeveloping is gonna meld back
into the earth, so a lot lessplastic, a lot more natural
material.

(01:25:16):
Um you know, but hopefully itwon't come to that because the
customer will cherish it andwant to keep it.
So, watch this space becauseit's about to launch.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:24):
That sounds amazing.
That's that's fantastic, Jack.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, that's it.
Just just just thank you.
Keep on.
I don't need to tell you.

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