September 9, 2025 • 48 mins
What happens when a 40-year design veteran takes you behind the curtain of corporate design culture? Robert Powell, the self-styled "Grand Poobah of UX" and former design analytics leader at Shell, delivers a masterclass in authentic design leadership that cuts through the noise of typical design discussions.
Powell's journey from creating early gaming software on 16-bit computers to building theatrical props for Doctor Who represents the multidisciplinary foundation that makes exceptional designers. But it's his candid assessment of corporate design culture that proves most valuable. After joining Shell as a "secret shopper" to evaluate their design practices, Powell helped build what he describes as a dream environment – not a department but a genuine community where designers were empowered to push back, teach, and deliver meaningful work.
The dismantling of this successful design culture by accountants provides a sobering lesson about organizational priorities. Yet Powell remains optimistic about what good design looks like and how it can be rebuilt. His perspective on artificial intelligence is similarly nuanced – seeing enormous potential when AI removes mental heavy lifting for designers, but warning against using it "not as a tool, but as a replacement to human beings to maintain the status quo." As he aptly notes, "If your definition of success is doing exactly the same, just cheaper, that translates to failing cheaper."
Perhaps most valuably, Powell challenges the industry's obsession with tools and sector experience over fundamental design thinking abilities. "Design is not aesthetics," he asserts. "Design is the process that delivers a solution." This principle applies whether designing for Mandalorians, Victorian lamps, or digital experiences – understanding the user's needs transcends specific tools or sectors.
Ready to rethink your approach to design leadership? Listen now to gain insights from someone who's survived and thrived through four decades of design evolution.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
and everything goes dim, like some people, I know,
but not on this, call good cat,yay, awesome.
So, mr Robert Powell, how areyou, sir?
You know the answer to that?
I do, but do you want to sharethe answer?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
yeah sure, a few weeks ago, about a month and a
half, there had a seriousaccident.
Ended up being straight intohospital with dislocated
shoulder.
The ballpark there actuallyended up there.
So that was a definitedislocation Torn muscles, ripped
(01:02):
tendons, nerve damage, thewhole lot.
However, hand is working, I can.
However, hand is working, I canwork a mouse, I can work a
cable.
Life is good, probably still abit of a pain, but that will
come in time I I wouldn't do anydriving.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I I probably wouldn't do much walking either, but you
know that's just me, um, butyou are on the mend.
Yes, excellent, all right, sofor the sake of this, I mean,
obviously I call you bob.
What do you prefer, robert, mrpal, sir, or do I refer to you
as the grand poobah?
The grand poobah was a title.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It's not my actual name, but yes, um, the grand
poobah thing was obviously there, just because titles are such a
nonsense.
They are.
So I was quite delighted to saywhen somebody who won't be
mentioned because I have toomuch respect for you said you
(01:58):
can name your own job title.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Al Noble.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yes, and of course I went for grand poobah of UX, he
did.
Grand poobah of UX, he did.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Grand Poobah of UX.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I have to tell you, when I put that title up on my
profile, I must have had thebest part of about 300 direct
messages going.
That's the dream role.
That's what we want.
Everybody got the message that,yeah, when it comes to design,
the titles mean nothing it's,it's hilarious, absolutely
(02:29):
hilarious.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So I mean, for those who don't know, and if you
haven't realized already, boband I have known of each other,
um, for quite some time.
Um, yeah, I think it wasBarclays where I first walked
into one of your splendid caves,I think with the brilliant
(02:50):
design manager at the time,charlie Francis.
I'll praise his name and histhriving career, because I
walked out of that interviewthinking I'm dead.
I'm so dead Because that was agrilling and then some.
I wasn't used to that, but no,and that's how we first got
(03:17):
acquainted, I guess.
But before we get into that, doyou want to tell for all of the
folks who, perhaps unwittingly,well, for all of the folks who
perhaps unwittingly, livingunder some kind of massive stone
rock mountain, who aren't awareof who you are and what you've
done and how you started, wouldyou just want to give us a quick
overview as to yeah, all ofthat Quick overview how to
(03:39):
summarize 40 odd years in acouple of seconds.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I am terrible at self-promotion, you know this,
you told me off for it yourself.
Summarized 40 odd years in acouple of seconds.
I am terrible at self-promotion.
If you know this, you've toldme off for it yourself.
So let me just say I am oldschool HCD.
I was UX before the great GodDon Norman actually qualified
what the definition of UX was.
(04:03):
Worked before the web onwonderful things called
multimedia, started off workingin gaming and software, all for
16-bit computers.
Web came along, started workingas consultancy, taking the
(04:25):
graphic stuff into um software.
I had.
My client to fame from thattime was I created the first
lights of london internet andworked with so many banks it's
just unreal.
And from there moved on toeducation, which I just love,
(04:48):
and because you know, when itcomes down to user testing and
user research, there is nothinglike a classroom full of 13 year
olds to tell you are yourproducts looks while your design
sucks, why you suck when yourparents, why your design sucks,
why you suck, why your parentssuck, why the world sucks and
why pictures suck.
And yeah, you get definitefeedback without any sort of I
(05:11):
need to be polite and diplomatic.
That doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
An orgy of feedback.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Crikey From there joined up with a few friends
into consultancy, which justexploded, and literally I was
working well around the world somany different countries, so
many different organizations topof my head and South America,
(05:39):
south Africa, africa, plenty ofplaces in Eastern Europe, europe
itself, malaysia, quite a lotin Southern Asia, in fact.
And yeah, when I came backthere, I started working with
(06:02):
individual companies.
I was working with NatWest,then was recruited to go to St
Gobert and help them set uptheir first UK digital user
experience, which was just a joy.
Eventually ended up at Shell,where I was leader for design
(06:25):
analytics, which is exactly whatwe used to do in the old days
of ux, which is what happenswhen you put system data and
user data together, you actuallyget data that can be actionable
.
So that was my role at um show.
Yeah, so that was me in anutshell crikey.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.
So we, as I said before I, Istumbled into charlie francis's
shiny cave I think it was floor23 or 24 barclays and, like I
said, I had no, no desire at allto get into retail banking or
(07:03):
anything like that.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I think it was um no designer goes into this industry
to go.
I really want to work for abank no, that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
No, I'd done trading applications before then, um,
but I hadn't done the wholeretail uh, business, corporate,
all of that, um.
And I think it was thebrilliant hugo uh recruiter who
has threatened me with doing anepisode of this as well, but it
(07:35):
hasn't happened yet.
He's.
He's a very, very busy man andhe kind of cajoled me into
number one, going for theinterview and then, um, by some
fluke, landing the gig.
And I still remember where wesat and correct me if I'm wrong
here, but I think it wasprobably just two days before we
(07:55):
not only were ripping thebejesus out of one another, but
also every single other personwho we laid eyes on or who we
could hear, because there wasone person in particular.
You could hear her before shearrived.
She would jingle because of theamount of gold and other
ornaments that she had festoonedabout herself.
(08:15):
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I'd just like to caveat that it wasn't everyone.
We saw the design teamthemselves.
We gave gentle ribbons to, butthat was part and parcel of the
design team you say gentle, someof the digital experts.
Yes, yes, um.
One of my favorite favoritememories ever is a senior
(08:45):
stakeholder sitting into one ofyour meetings and he kept
interrupting and kept saying no,we don't want to do that, we
don't.
And literally within 10 minutesyou've gone.
Okay, we need to stop this.
You can leave me.
And the look on his face wasbut, but, but, no, you're not
offering anything here.
Leave.
This does not progress untilyou leave.
(09:06):
We will let you know what thedecision is.
And you just sat there until heactually left and just people
were around.
You were going.
Oh yeah, this one's going tomake a difference.
Set the standard.
We were all doing it.
Within a month, stakeholderswho thought they were complete
product owners would know.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I was polite.
I was professional, but I wasalso polite, yes, which is not
something I've ever mastered.
That's another story and maybewe'll get into that.
So I mean it's up to you.
I mean this preamble we hadyesterday, the other day,
because I've been trying to getthis done for quite a while.
Um, either it's my fault, oryou're busy falling off of
(09:52):
ladders, or you know somethingelse has happened.
Um, but besides, I think, um,bob powell the designer, you've
got some incredible side hustles.
He says you like a good sidehustle, everyone likes a good
side hustle.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah so, um, one of my main side hustles is um
theatrical props.
Um, for those.
I do them for the cosplaycommunity, for local theaters or
and brand groups forindependent filmmakers.
Even had a couple of my propshow up on Doctor who, which was
(10:35):
very rewarding.
Yeah, so that one is fun.
At the moment I'm building aKnights Templar suit of armor
out of EVA foam and that'scoming together really well.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I mean okay, because I've seen you shared pictures of
them and I'm stillflabbergasted.
I think it was an iteration ofBoba Fett.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, high Republic Mandalorian.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
That one.
Wow, just absolutely wow.
So if we get hold of them, I'lldefinitely put them up so folks
can have a peruse.
But it's something that's very,very common, very common, I
think, with folks who arebrilliant at quote, unquote
(11:28):
design, and it's a anobservation that thomas wilson
made.
We all have other stuff that weare really, really passionate
about, whether it's writing,whether it's making cosplay
costumes or props, etc.
Um, which is what you're doing.
Or you know, playing thetriangle, which is what I do in
(11:49):
my cave here, um, but everyonewho's just bloody good at it, um
, has other stuff as well.
I think that's anyone's hopingfor an interview question.
So what else do you do besidesdesign?
And if you see that candidate'seyes light up, I think that's a
pretty good sign that thatperson is going to be amazing.
(12:13):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I think it's true.
I think designers as a whole,virtual designers anyway we
spend so much of our timedesigning for other people,
people, people do pay us money.
Thank you very much.
I'll take the money.
What I'll do with the money isI will actually design something
for myself, something that Iactually want.
That could be in my case artsupplies, paint, landscapes,
(12:39):
robonsai I create theatricalparts Anything and anything.
I do it because I enjoy it.
It's not like being at a, say,a garden.
If you're a professionalgardener, the last thing you
want to do when you get home isdo your own bloody garden.
I can imagine If you're adesigner.
(13:01):
When you get home, the firstthing you want to do is do
something that you weren'tallowed to do at work, something
that actually stretches yourcreative chops.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
But it's definitely a multivariant.
I think that's why the best ofus are parallel processors as
opposed to serial processors.
Yeah, kind of crazy, crazy,crazy.
It's another thing that you dowhich I'd forgotten about, and
you just mentioned Bonsai.
How long have you been doingthat?
(13:32):
About 30 years, Good God.
See, that's probably why you'reslightly more patient than I am
, Slightly.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I don't know.
I do have a tendency to go outto the trees and go Whoa Well,
yes, no, not there.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So I mean you've done just in terms of design, then
you know you've done in just interms of design, then you know
you, you, you've, you've coveredeverything.
I don't think there's anythingthat you don't actually go and
own.
Would that be fair, or or notat all?
I mean you have yourpreferences.
I'm sure you've got yourpreferences right in terms of
discipline and there are obviousthings.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Nobody designs.
You get me to be a fashiondesigner.
It's not going to go.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I don't know, was it couture?
They're pretty way out there.
I can see a few people wearingsome of your lampshades.
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Everything I do is based on knowledge I have
accumulated because I want it.
Stuff that didn't interest me,like I have no interest in
architecture, apart from thefacades, like bedding structures
and all that.
No, no, no, that's fine.
Only that's the people who weredoing that.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Not a fan of Zaha Hadid, then I am.
Everything that comes out ofthat place is just beautiful,
achingly beautiful.
Fair dues, crikey.
This is because you've done somuch and you've been doing it
for such a long time.
It's actually quite difficultto focus on one thing, because
(15:05):
I'm, at the same time, consciousthat I'm going to dive really,
really deep into something,because you don't have any
shallow pools.
You just don't right.
Um, but you've mentioned shellalready, so do you want to talk
us through about why did youwant to go to an energy company
with such a bad press?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
and, yeah, just leave it at that I have never run
away from a big challenge.
I'm always run towards the bigchallenge.
What's the point of being adesigner if you're going to just
?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
get on.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
So, yeah, when I'd seen what you're doing, heard
what you were doing through thegreat flight for setting up the
X-Day, and when you came alongand said take a look at this,
okay.
So I had the wonderful,wonderful opportunity of being
secret shopper, of actuallygoing into Shell and seeing how
(16:01):
it didn't operate.
I'm not going to say operate itbecause it didn't, I just saw
how it didn't operate.
I could wander into meetingsand when people said, do you?
I said, oh sorry, I'm new here,I just got the meeting in.
Yeah, ok, yeah, fine.
So I could actually just sitback, turn the camera off and
just observe how all the peoplewere interacting and, more
(16:23):
especially, how they wereinteracting with design within
the show and, without puttingany too fine a point on it, they
were really really bad at it,which was really really
astounding, because when youactually looked at design within
Shell, it was a dream.
It was a dream because itwasn't a department, it wasn't
(16:48):
set up to be a facility forShell to move into.
It was a design communityoperating within shell.
It sat underneath the itumbrella.
But architect yep, we'll go anduse those guys.
Communications we'll go and usethose guys.
Um, oh, accessibility.
Oh, my god, we've got Meyerover here who knows more than
(17:11):
anybody in the entire world orused her.
And we had illustrators, we hadUI designers, we had CX, ux
service design, and it was likethere are literally agencies out
there, high-flying, big-nameagencies, that cannot call on
this talent.
And everybody, everybody wasjust like I don't want to leave.
(17:34):
Why would I want to leave?
It's not a question about money, because God knows Shell does
not pay the rest of the money.
It does not.
It's not about the work,because most of the work is
given to you, as here's yoursolution make it look pretty.
It was the fact that theleadership team within EXD,
especially yourself, actuallygave people permission to push
(17:57):
back against, that actually gavedesigners the power to design,
to actually say no, but not justno, full stop.
It was no, and so you gavedesigners the chance to actually
not just design but to teachabout design.
And then you would put them alltogether just get them talking.
And that sort of atmosphere,that sort of camaraderie, I've
(18:22):
never come across before and.
I don't ever come across again,and the fact that you did that
by design yourself one of thesedays.
I should turn this around andinterview you instead.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
There's a threat.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, honestly, when I came to the end and I could
illustrate to yourselves and tothe higher ups that they were
paying lip service to Agile,that they were paying lip
service to design thinking, thatthey were paying lip service to
production, that they werepaying lip service to
(18:56):
interaction design, lip serviceto service design, and that
could actually show them notjust why it was failing, where
it was failing and who wasfailing.
And because we had set up thissystem where the people who
didn't want to listen wouldn'tlisten, but the ones who did.
That made a huge difference.
(19:16):
Because I was the secretshopper, I was the outsider, I
wasn't part of edged it, notthen.
And then, when I'd actuallypresented all of that, he turned
around and said so do you feelabout joining?
What do I find?
It was just as simple as that.
It wasn't even a thought.
It was just like what do I sign?
And for two years, you, I andthe other members of the design
(19:42):
leadership team, we fought toughand nail at what we got.
It's just astounding.
Every chance I get now where Italk about design as a culture,
design as a part of business, ofoperations, that is the model I
know.
So the fact that we got there.
(20:03):
You've done it for five years.
I've been there for two, andthen the entire thing was
scrapped by accountants.
Yeah, if the rumors are true,they are now starting to
understand what they have lost.
But yeah, we lost what thedesign team lost.
That was profaned, but everysingle person who left the XD
(20:27):
now has a new benchmark.
This is what good looks like.
This is what works.
This is what good looks like.
This is what works.
This is what's effective.
And it goes beyond designingwhat's on screen.
It goes beyond customerjourneys, wireframes and all of
those good things.
It actually goes to the way ofthinking and approaching design
(20:51):
as a commercial concept.
So, yeah, there was no way Iwas going to miss that up and,
even though still searching formy next position, that's the
kind of position I'm looking forand if I can't find it, that's
the source of position I willbuild yep, it wasn't easy um
duty was easy.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
It definitely didn't happen by random.
I mean, I'm not.
I mean you've got 10 years onme, um, and that 10 years is
significant.
There's an awful lot of bias inour sector in in, I think,
particularly in the creativesectors.
Um, if you hit mid-40s orthereabouts, then, yeah, goodbye
(21:34):
, even if you have got aninteresting haircut and, um,
that additional knowledge,expertise that folks like
yourself can draw upon, um,because that is priceless.
What I learned in agency landprimarily is okay, don't argue
(21:55):
with the client, find a way toinfluence the client so you can
find some common ground.
So you need to understand yourecosystem, understand what's
right about it, definitelyunderstand what's wrong about it
.
And then, yeah, try and figureout a way.
Now, the reason, after four orfive years or whatever, it was
(22:17):
where I got to the point of wetalk about design maturity model
, and that's when I thought Ineed someone to come and
invalidate this, because beforeI move to the next level of
maturity, I'd better make surethat what I'm doing has got some
, it's got some legs.
I kind of knew.
But you get sucked into theecosystems as well.
(22:39):
You get too close, yeah andhaving second perspective having
the absolute luxury of beingable to bring you in and say,
okay, show me where this isbroken, show me where I've
screwed this right up, but ifthere's a couple of places that
seem like they're doing okay,then yeah, and you basically did
(23:02):
that very, very quickly.
That was pivotal.
That was absolutely pivotalbecause then this leadership
team that you, rather, myleadership team that you have
already referred to, the crackswithin that were also starting
to appear, because you get goodpeople, passionate people, they
(23:28):
want to do good work, they wantto succeed, but you don't want
them making the same mistakesthat you yourself and other
people who are at the same levelof seniority as you have made.
And that's a difficult skill,which I'm still trying to
perfect.
And so those cracks began toappear, but we muddled through.
(23:51):
It was okay.
Introdu, introducing design opswas awesome.
That for me, besides you comingin and saying, yeah, it looks
like it's okay, yeah, a bit wellhere's the weaknesses
communications is where thingsaren't connecting when they
should.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, that was great, but then you did actually need
the design ops to go on top ofit.
Yes, actually say okay, now werecognize the problem, this is
the process.
We are going to have to fix it.
Yep, and that's what design opsdid.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
With bells on.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, let's give him a shout out.
He deserves it.
Loriano was just magnificent atthat.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
No, he was Definitely , but we had to have you know
failed before then, which we didum, and then I mean so, for
example, I just need a couple ofdashboards.
Thank you very much.
Six months, seven months, eightmonths nothing, absolutely
nothing coming out of my lt forcrying out loud, and he turns up
(24:53):
less than two weeks.
There you go.
Here's the first couple ofiterations, and it was such a
relief because then we couldsocialize those metrics.
And why I wanted yourself tolook after analytics is usually
what I found is when folks arebuilding up capabilities, they
start with the analytics.
You genuinely couldn't do thatat Shell, because the roles
(25:16):
weren't in place, the structurewasn't in place, the methodology
wasn't there, the governancewasn't there.
Governance certainly wasn't.
What are you measuring?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, and why are you measuring?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
it yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
What led you to that decision?
Let's be honest you came tothat decision because you set
the metrics on what would beeasiest to achieve so that you
could get your bonus at the endof the year.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yep, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I bet you actually own the bonus by actually
delivering what needs to be done.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
The land of corporates.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Very much so.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
So one of my real book bears is every now and then
somebody will come up and sayhow do you actually show the
right design?
Good God, we have got tons ofKPIs that will do that.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
All for now, though.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Well, you said that.
But, like I said, everybody who, okay, forget the spines,
everybody they threw out likerubbish knows what good looks
like, I may not have come acrossit to that sort of level.
So when you look at it as whatwe did for Shell for those five
(26:24):
years you were there, the twoyears I was there, we improved
their design capability.
That they didn't want it.
In the end that's down to them.
What we did, more than that,was actually empower a whole new
generation of designers tounderstand what design is.
And it's not just the pictureson screen.
(26:46):
The heavy lifting is in themental mode.
It's okay.
So how do we get from there tothere?
And before you've even put themto paper, stuck it on a board,
a pixel on a screen.
The heavier lifting you've donementally to actually decide
what you actually want topresent to them is your thing
right?
That is huge.
(27:08):
And the fact that they knew theycould do that but still have
support from leaders, from peersthemselves, was an eye opener
for most of them, and the factthat each and every single
designer, top of the day, wantedto help people who weren't as
experienced as them spokevolumes.
(27:28):
As they spoke volumes when itwas announced that I was leaving
.
It's the only time I haveactually had my own team members
crying because they knew thechanges were coming and there
was nothing they could do aboutit.
Yes, some of it was losing sucha wonderful, beautiful manager
(27:50):
as myself, but some of it, quiterationally, was where are the
gains from this?
we can't see it, and the reasonthey couldn't see is because
they knew what good was and tohave from juniors, interns,
freshers, all the way up toreally senior designers still
coming in and doing that,helping each other, both
(28:13):
downwards, upwards, upwards,left and right, sharing
experiences.
It was amazing, it was quitetelling at the time of leaving,
how many people I just had briefcontact with over my tenure
there we're calling up andsaying this is terrible, how is
this happening?
What's going on?
You're still talking to thewrong person.
(28:33):
Talk to your peers, talk toyour bosses, because we haven't,
we've only got so far.
It's all going to go per sewith everything that you've
built.
Yeah Well, guess what?
We've actually had some peoplecome to us and say we want
design to fail, we want to goback to what it was five, six
(28:55):
years ago when you justdelivered what was told.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well, great, that's what you've got.
Yeah, happy days and good luckwith that.
It's not going to work.
And it's not going to work withthis new paradigm called
artificial intelligence.
Try doing that without designand um, yeah, but it's the same
pattern, right?
It's a conversation I've hadwith debbie levitt's,
conversation I've had withthomas wil.
It's a tool.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
It's just another tool.
We're actually getting fromconcept to end design as quickly
as possible.
It takes away all of the heavylifting.
The big problem for me with AIisn't actually the technology.
It isn't that it's doing thingsthat people normally do.
(29:54):
It's the fact that so manyplaces are using it not as a
tool, but as a replacement tohuman beings to maintain the
status quo.
Where's the innovation?
Where is your value?
What is your definition ofsuccess?
Because, if your definition ofsuccess, because if your
definition of success is doingexactly the same, just cheaper,
(30:19):
that translates to failingcheaper.
Now those places that aretaking AI are going to the
designers and going okay, whatwe can do here now is get AI to
actually sit to the parametersyou want.
So you tell AI what it is,instead of AI telling you what
(30:39):
it is, and when you get to thepoint where okay, so
(31:09):
no-transcript, and you actuallydesign the output, so many
places now are going AI's doneit Goodbye designer.
And they get surprised when itbreaks.
No, it can't work like that.
(31:31):
The potential for AI to get ridof so much of the mental heavy
lifting and just leaving you tobe creative, just letting
designers purely design, it'sjust mind-blowing.
Yeah, but when you and what dopeople do you think it's for?
Yeah, turn me into a Simpsonscharacter.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
There's a couple of things to that right.
I mean it's the age-old race toshiny which hasn't changed, and
in part because of theignorance that's still prevalent
.
I mean, you've been doing thisfor 40 years.
I'm touching 30 years myself.
It's kind of crazy that peoplestill don't know the value that
(32:09):
design brings, because it's notdecoration, it's governance.
Now put that in the context ofShell and other places as well.
We had this wonderful thing doneby Rick Sesnius I always
butcher his surname and he wasbrilliant.
He was basically putting theframeworks in for IT governance
(32:31):
and they had this thing calledSoftware Engineering Management
System, sems, and I said can Ihave a policy for that, for
experience design?
Yes, absolutely, I think youshould, said Rick.
And so we did.
That became an incrediblypowerful weapon, an influencing
tool for folks who turn aroundand say I just need you to do X,
(32:54):
y and Z.
Yeah, but X, y and Z requiresall of these tasks to be done by
the right caliber of designpractitioner.
And here are examples of theartifacts that you're actually
going to be receiving.
And that empowered not just thecapability, it empowered IT and
the other side of that line.
It empowered all of our lovelydesigners.
(33:17):
That governance framework iscritical Because right now it is
absolutely the Wild West.
It's a race to shiny, it isanyone can do this.
It is if I can type into akeyboard and get the right
quote-unquote prompts.
I mean there's courses forhaving knowing how to put
prompts in there for crying outloud.
I mean, bless them, someone'sgot to make a buck, yeah, and
(33:39):
they are um, but that's okay.
But if you're not consideringhuman beings, what exactly and
who exactly are you creatingproducts and services for?
Because we are creators, we arethinkers, we are makers, we are
supporters, we are everythingthat makes us feel the way that
(34:04):
we do, and that's good and bad,bad.
And unless humans are incontrol of this wonderful thing
called the ai, I don't see thepoint of it ai is not the danger
if you have people using ai.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
It's the danger if you've replaced all the people
with ai.
That doesn't need pain.
How are those people going topay for the products that the AI
is producing?
Self-fulfilling prophecy.
You want AI to replace jobsGuess what Yours is next in the
line.
You want AI to be a tool forpeople to improve, designed to
(34:43):
improve, processed to improvelife in general.
Great, Try people to use the AIproblem.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah, exciting times for sure.
Definitely what's next for you,Because you could do anything
you wanted to do, and that's anawesome position to be in.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
And a strange position.
You said it yourself.
I have done this for 40 years.
I have nothing to actuallyprove to myself.
Everything that I wanted to doI have sort of achieved with the
(35:25):
exception of running a hugecompany to actually have design
as design-led.
But, I don't have the monetarybacking for that.
So where I am now is I don'tgive a damn about the title, I
don't give a damn about thecompany.
(35:46):
What I care about is making adifference and, as we did in EXD
, it's helping the nextgeneration of designers achieve
everything they can.
I had some exceptional teachersand mentors when I was coming
here.
Now it's time to pay back.
(36:07):
All I want to do, as long as mymortgage is paid and I am
making a difference, that's allI want to do, simple things.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yes, simple things.
I'm pretty much of the samemindset, but one thing that is
still bothering me is theseroles that I see advertised and
folks call me, contact me, sendthe carrier pigeon to me because
(36:47):
that job description has madeit so explicit that they would
not entertain applications orthey prefer applications for
people who do have sectorexperience X, y and Z right.
What's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
It's not just you need to have sector experience,
you have to have experience ofthis particular system of design
.
You have to be able to knowfigment, know vision, to know
frame, to know all of thesedifferent things.
And if you haven't got that,I'm not even going to consider
(37:23):
you Again.
These are all just tools, justas design.
If I'm designing for aMandalorian, or if I am
designing for a Victorian lamp,or I am designing for drug
paraphernalia 1987, I'm stilldesigning.
(37:46):
I don't need to be the drug, Idon't need to be a Victorian, I
don't need to be a Mandalorian.
I do need to know where I'mdesigning, designing.
I don't need to be the rocket,I don't need to be a Victorian,
I don't need to be a Mandalorian, I do need to know where I'm
designing.
Yes that is all I need to do.
And what I need to do on top ofthere is know who am I
designing it for?
What are their expectations?
What is it they want?
That's where the user researchcomes in, and I'm not going to
(38:07):
be talking to any Victorians,but I do know experts in
Victoriana who are going to beable to talk to me.
I don't know any Mandaloriansbecause they don't exist, but I
know lots of people who knowwhat they want from a
Mandalorian Drug user.
I'm not a drug user.
I'm too freaking scared ofneedles.
I've never been able to swallowtablets until recently, thank
(38:30):
goodness, but that doesn'tmatter.
The person who's doing theproduction knows what they want,
and I need to understand that.
Now, if I make those things outof metal, wood, plastic, foam,
whatever I'm making them out of,whether I'm doing it with a
sharp knife, with a hammer, witha saw, I've got a whole
(38:50):
multitude of different things.
The fact that I can work acrossall of those comes down to the
fact that I know how to designregardless of setting, and I
know how to build regardless oftools.
And when you've actually gotthis framework that says fit
your bomb into this little boxthere, regardless of everything
(39:11):
else you bring to the role,who's winning?
Not the person who's actuallygoing to be buying somebody who
does this little much or thismuch.
Again, the devaluing of design.
It's the idea that design is,it's deliverable.
It's the idea that design isthere purely for aesthetics.
(39:35):
If that was true, god help deafpeople.
They've never had anythingdesigned.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Blind people.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
they've never had anything designed in their life.
It's, you know, God helpengineering.
Nothing under the bonnet of thecar has ever been designed.
She don't see it.
No, design is not aesthetics.
Design is the process thatdelivers a solution, and that
solution can be anything, andyour influences for that design
come from so many differentsectors, way outside of digital.
(40:06):
Yep, absolutely, and when I seethose sorts of things, it's like
, okay, can we have theconversation Instead of the tick
box?
Can we have the conversationInstead of you telling me what
box I need to crawl into?
Tell me what skills youactually need, Because guess
what, if you don't know Framer,spend a week on YouTube, you'll
(40:28):
be up to speed.
Same with Figma.
There are thousands andthousands.
So are you actually employingsomebody who knows how to work
Framer or somebody who knows howto design?
Are you employing somebody whocan operate Figma with no idea
why they are operating?
Those conversations still driveme up the wall, but, conversely
, those are also the sort oforganizations I do want to work
(40:51):
for, so that I can actually showthem.
This is what you're missing outon.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Yep Couldn't agree more, fella Could not agree more
.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Same thing with AI.
As I said earlier, AI is notbeing used to make companies
better.
It's being made to justmaintain a status quo.
No innovation.
Just use this to stay where weare instead of use this to
actually take us higher andhigher and higher.
Yep design.
(41:21):
That's the problem.
It's not ai.
It's the problem.
It's bad thinking.
It's bad business practice.
It's the idea that you know thecost of everything and the
value of that.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, with bells on Folks
making decisions that, yeah,they have no business making
decisions on.
But that's the world that welive in, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
It is yeah.
So again, that's my bigcriteria for what I do.
Next is can I make a difference?
Can I deliver?
Yeah, no problem.
Can I make a difference?
That's out of my hands, butyeah, the first person that
turns around to me and says wedon't have a huge amount of
money, but we do want to getbetter and we do want to make a
(42:09):
difference, can you help us?
Speaker 1 (42:10):
I will sign on the bottom line yep, I mean,
hopefully I'll find somethingand then I can drag you back in
um, because that was a luxury,an absolute luxury, um, not
having to butt heads withanybody else and just knowing
that we putted heads, but wechallenged each other.
(42:31):
That's different.
That's different, um, but in agood way, in a productive way,
professionally, politely, um, Ithink george carling would be
proud.
Bless him.
It's just amazing.
That's cool, all right.
So how long have we beenyapping?
Speaker 2 (42:47):
for hour, hour, and a half, about 20 minutes.
Yeah, it's okay Is thereanything you wanted to share?
I mean, the only thing that Ithink we haven't touched on is
the number of people who are incharge of design leadership who
can neither design nor lead.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Oh, what a can of worms you are opening up, Mr
Powell.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Absolutely, and I will go and upset people even
further by saying so much ofthis is actually our own damn
fault.
We were so eager to take anydesign job offered to us that we
didn't care who was offering it.
And when people benefited fromour designs to further their own
(43:36):
careers, that didn't help us,that helped them.
So now there are a lot ofpeople who are design leads who
have themselves never designedanything or have been in control
of people with design.
They've never actually lived,certainly not by example, but
they know how to play thecorporate game.
(43:56):
That's also a segment of thecurrent business that is either
going to collapse or turneverything over.
We need to actually be certainthat design is being taught,
especially human centered design.
I still remember in Shell whereI asked a group of POs who the
(44:24):
end user was.
There was one I turned aroundand said we are Not.
One of them was actually goingto use the damn product at the
end, but they were the end user.
There was another project whereall of the personas, all of the
user journeys were produced bysystem architects.
Never sat in front of the userin their lives.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
What they were doing was what they want the user to
do rather than what does theuser do that that's not unique
to share?
No, not by a long talk, no, Imean not surprisingly, it's
something that you know.
Lots of folks who I've spokento on on this podcast have said
um, the lack of authentic design, and I don't mean that in a
(45:09):
woke, authentic way, butauthentic in so much as
designers need to be led bydesigners and those leadership
positions.
It's not just about you knowwhether you went to chelsea, led
a team of five or six, you know.
(45:32):
Do you have commercial acumen?
How much scar tissue have youaccumulated?
Are you sweating bucketsbecause you're in a room full of
people who you know have norespect for you?
Do you know how to win themover?
Or walk out and pick and chooseyour battles or ask them to
leave the room Right?
(45:55):
All of that requires experience.
And even if you do have a rolelike that, how can you be
mentoring and helping yourdirect reports, let alone their
team practitioners, if you don'tknow the basics right?
I mean, famously, I asked oneof my direct reports.
(46:16):
You have to learn at least onedesign tool.
I don't care what it is.
Illustrator Agjura, I don'tcare.
Figma oh yeah, I'm using Figma.
Okay, great, that's good.
Just one, that's fine.
Turned out that it was FigJam.
And then this person was alsomentoring allegedly.
And you kind of think toyourself well, odd, it's just
(46:41):
odd.
So you have to get thefoundations right.
And these folks who are indesign leadership positions,
good luck to you If you'relearning as you go along, good
luck to you, but don't sit thereand flaunt yourself off as the
grand poobah of design.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
That's where you're going.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
But if you haven't walked that path and it is a
very long path, it's a windypath, it's something that I
think every single design leaderhas to be able to do it's the
scar tissue that they haveaccumulated, it's the manner in
which that they hold themselves,which is the most telling, the
(47:25):
most telling the most telling.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Um, it's just, it's weird.
We're in such a weird space.
I liken it to somebody whoknows how to drive a car telling
formula one drivers how toactually drive a little
knowledge is very dangerous,very, very dangerous.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
Great Look, it's been awesome.
Thanks for doing this.
Thanks for being patient enoughto do this, thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Not a problem, anytime.
and everything goes dim, like some people, I know,
but not on this, call good cat,yay, awesome.
So, mr Robert Powell, how areyou, sir?
You know the answer to that?
I do, but do you want to sharethe answer?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
yeah sure, a few weeks ago, about a month and a
half, there had a seriousaccident.
Ended up being straight intohospital with dislocated
shoulder.
The ballpark there actuallyended up there.
So that was a definitedislocation Torn muscles, ripped
(01:02):
tendons, nerve damage, thewhole lot.
However, hand is working, I can.
However, hand is working, I canwork a mouse, I can work a
cable.
Life is good, probably still abit of a pain, but that will
come in time I I wouldn't do anydriving.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I I probably wouldn't do much walking either, but you
know that's just me, um, butyou are on the mend.
Yes, excellent, all right, sofor the sake of this, I mean,
obviously I call you bob.
What do you prefer, robert, mrpal, sir, or do I refer to you
as the grand poobah?
The grand poobah was a title.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It's not my actual name, but yes, um, the grand
poobah thing was obviously there, just because titles are such a
nonsense.
They are.
So I was quite delighted to saywhen somebody who won't be
mentioned because I have toomuch respect for you said you
(01:58):
can name your own job title.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Al Noble.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yes, and of course I went for grand poobah of UX, he
did.
Grand poobah of UX, he did.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Grand Poobah of UX.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I have to tell you, when I put that title up on my
profile, I must have had thebest part of about 300 direct
messages going.
That's the dream role.
That's what we want.
Everybody got the message that,yeah, when it comes to design,
the titles mean nothing it's,it's hilarious, absolutely
(02:29):
hilarious.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So I mean, for those who don't know, and if you
haven't realized already, boband I have known of each other,
um, for quite some time.
Um, yeah, I think it wasBarclays where I first walked
into one of your splendid caves,I think with the brilliant
(02:50):
design manager at the time,charlie Francis.
I'll praise his name and histhriving career, because I
walked out of that interviewthinking I'm dead.
I'm so dead Because that was agrilling and then some.
I wasn't used to that, but no,and that's how we first got
(03:17):
acquainted, I guess.
But before we get into that, doyou want to tell for all of the
folks who, perhaps unwittingly,well, for all of the folks who
perhaps unwittingly, livingunder some kind of massive stone
rock mountain, who aren't awareof who you are and what you've
done and how you started, wouldyou just want to give us a quick
overview as to yeah, all ofthat Quick overview how to
(03:39):
summarize 40 odd years in acouple of seconds.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I am terrible at self-promotion, you know this,
you told me off for it yourself.
Summarized 40 odd years in acouple of seconds.
I am terrible at self-promotion.
If you know this, you've toldme off for it yourself.
So let me just say I am oldschool HCD.
I was UX before the great GodDon Norman actually qualified
what the definition of UX was.
(04:03):
Worked before the web onwonderful things called
multimedia, started off workingin gaming and software, all for
16-bit computers.
Web came along, started workingas consultancy, taking the
(04:25):
graphic stuff into um software.
I had.
My client to fame from thattime was I created the first
lights of london internet andworked with so many banks it's
just unreal.
And from there moved on toeducation, which I just love,
(04:48):
and because you know, when itcomes down to user testing and
user research, there is nothinglike a classroom full of 13 year
olds to tell you are yourproducts looks while your design
sucks, why you suck when yourparents, why your design sucks,
why you suck, why your parentssuck, why the world sucks and
why pictures suck.
And yeah, you get definitefeedback without any sort of I
(05:11):
need to be polite and diplomatic.
That doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
An orgy of feedback.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Crikey From there joined up with a few friends
into consultancy, which justexploded, and literally I was
working well around the world somany different countries, so
many different organizations topof my head and South America,
(05:39):
south Africa, africa, plenty ofplaces in Eastern Europe, europe
itself, malaysia, quite a lotin Southern Asia, in fact.
And yeah, when I came backthere, I started working with
(06:02):
individual companies.
I was working with NatWest,then was recruited to go to St
Gobert and help them set uptheir first UK digital user
experience, which was just a joy.
Eventually ended up at Shell,where I was leader for design
(06:25):
analytics, which is exactly whatwe used to do in the old days
of ux, which is what happenswhen you put system data and
user data together, you actuallyget data that can be actionable
.
So that was my role at um show.
Yeah, so that was me in anutshell crikey.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.
So we, as I said before I, Istumbled into charlie francis's
shiny cave I think it was floor23 or 24 barclays and, like I
said, I had no, no desire at allto get into retail banking or
(07:03):
anything like that.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I think it was um no designer goes into this industry
to go.
I really want to work for abank no, that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
No, I'd done trading applications before then, um,
but I hadn't done the wholeretail uh, business, corporate,
all of that, um.
And I think it was thebrilliant hugo uh recruiter who
has threatened me with doing anepisode of this as well, but it
(07:35):
hasn't happened yet.
He's.
He's a very, very busy man andhe kind of cajoled me into
number one, going for theinterview and then, um, by some
fluke, landing the gig.
And I still remember where wesat and correct me if I'm wrong
here, but I think it wasprobably just two days before we
(07:55):
not only were ripping thebejesus out of one another, but
also every single other personwho we laid eyes on or who we
could hear, because there wasone person in particular.
You could hear her before shearrived.
She would jingle because of theamount of gold and other
ornaments that she had festoonedabout herself.
(08:15):
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I'd just like to caveat that it wasn't everyone.
We saw the design teamthemselves.
We gave gentle ribbons to, butthat was part and parcel of the
design team you say gentle, someof the digital experts.
Yes, yes, um.
One of my favorite favoritememories ever is a senior
(08:45):
stakeholder sitting into one ofyour meetings and he kept
interrupting and kept saying no,we don't want to do that, we
don't.
And literally within 10 minutesyou've gone.
Okay, we need to stop this.
You can leave me.
And the look on his face wasbut, but, but, no, you're not
offering anything here.
Leave.
This does not progress untilyou leave.
(09:06):
We will let you know what thedecision is.
And you just sat there until heactually left and just people
were around.
You were going.
Oh yeah, this one's going tomake a difference.
Set the standard.
We were all doing it.
Within a month, stakeholderswho thought they were complete
product owners would know.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I was polite.
I was professional, but I wasalso polite, yes, which is not
something I've ever mastered.
That's another story and maybewe'll get into that.
So I mean it's up to you.
I mean this preamble we hadyesterday, the other day,
because I've been trying to getthis done for quite a while.
Um, either it's my fault, oryou're busy falling off of
(09:52):
ladders, or you know somethingelse has happened.
Um, but besides, I think, um,bob powell the designer, you've
got some incredible side hustles.
He says you like a good sidehustle, everyone likes a good
side hustle.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah so, um, one of my main side hustles is um
theatrical props.
Um, for those.
I do them for the cosplaycommunity, for local theaters or
and brand groups forindependent filmmakers.
Even had a couple of my propshow up on Doctor who, which was
(10:35):
very rewarding.
Yeah, so that one is fun.
At the moment I'm building aKnights Templar suit of armor
out of EVA foam and that'scoming together really well.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I mean okay, because I've seen you shared pictures of
them and I'm stillflabbergasted.
I think it was an iteration ofBoba Fett.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, high Republic Mandalorian.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
That one.
Wow, just absolutely wow.
So if we get hold of them, I'lldefinitely put them up so folks
can have a peruse.
But it's something that's very,very common, very common, I
think, with folks who arebrilliant at quote, unquote
(11:28):
design, and it's a anobservation that thomas wilson
made.
We all have other stuff that weare really, really passionate
about, whether it's writing,whether it's making cosplay
costumes or props, etc.
Um, which is what you're doing.
Or you know, playing thetriangle, which is what I do in
(11:49):
my cave here, um, but everyonewho's just bloody good at it, um
, has other stuff as well.
I think that's anyone's hopingfor an interview question.
So what else do you do besidesdesign?
And if you see that candidate'seyes light up, I think that's a
pretty good sign that thatperson is going to be amazing.
(12:13):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I think it's true.
I think designers as a whole,virtual designers anyway we
spend so much of our timedesigning for other people,
people, people do pay us money.
Thank you very much.
I'll take the money.
What I'll do with the money isI will actually design something
for myself, something that Iactually want.
That could be in my case artsupplies, paint, landscapes,
(12:39):
robonsai I create theatricalparts Anything and anything.
I do it because I enjoy it.
It's not like being at a, say,a garden.
If you're a professionalgardener, the last thing you
want to do when you get home isdo your own bloody garden.
I can imagine If you're adesigner.
(13:01):
When you get home, the firstthing you want to do is do
something that you weren'tallowed to do at work, something
that actually stretches yourcreative chops.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
But it's definitely a multivariant.
I think that's why the best ofus are parallel processors as
opposed to serial processors.
Yeah, kind of crazy, crazy,crazy.
It's another thing that you dowhich I'd forgotten about, and
you just mentioned Bonsai.
How long have you been doingthat?
(13:32):
About 30 years, Good God.
See, that's probably why you'reslightly more patient than I am
, Slightly.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I don't know.
I do have a tendency to go outto the trees and go Whoa Well,
yes, no, not there.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So I mean you've done just in terms of design, then
you know you've done in just interms of design, then you know
you, you, you've, you've coveredeverything.
I don't think there's anythingthat you don't actually go and
own.
Would that be fair, or or notat all?
I mean you have yourpreferences.
I'm sure you've got yourpreferences right in terms of
discipline and there are obviousthings.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Nobody designs.
You get me to be a fashiondesigner.
It's not going to go.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I don't know, was it couture?
They're pretty way out there.
I can see a few people wearingsome of your lampshades.
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Everything I do is based on knowledge I have
accumulated because I want it.
Stuff that didn't interest me,like I have no interest in
architecture, apart from thefacades, like bedding structures
and all that.
No, no, no, that's fine.
Only that's the people who weredoing that.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Not a fan of Zaha Hadid, then I am.
Everything that comes out ofthat place is just beautiful,
achingly beautiful.
Fair dues, crikey.
This is because you've done somuch and you've been doing it
for such a long time.
It's actually quite difficultto focus on one thing, because
(15:05):
I'm, at the same time, consciousthat I'm going to dive really,
really deep into something,because you don't have any
shallow pools.
You just don't right.
Um, but you've mentioned shellalready, so do you want to talk
us through about why did youwant to go to an energy company
with such a bad press?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
and, yeah, just leave it at that I have never run
away from a big challenge.
I'm always run towards the bigchallenge.
What's the point of being adesigner if you're going to just
?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
get on.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
So, yeah, when I'd seen what you're doing, heard
what you were doing through thegreat flight for setting up the
X-Day, and when you came alongand said take a look at this,
okay.
So I had the wonderful,wonderful opportunity of being
secret shopper, of actuallygoing into Shell and seeing how
(16:01):
it didn't operate.
I'm not going to say operate itbecause it didn't, I just saw
how it didn't operate.
I could wander into meetingsand when people said, do you?
I said, oh sorry, I'm new here,I just got the meeting in.
Yeah, ok, yeah, fine.
So I could actually just sitback, turn the camera off and
just observe how all the peoplewere interacting and, more
(16:23):
especially, how they wereinteracting with design within
the show and, without puttingany too fine a point on it, they
were really really bad at it,which was really really
astounding, because when youactually looked at design within
Shell, it was a dream.
It was a dream because itwasn't a department, it wasn't
(16:48):
set up to be a facility forShell to move into.
It was a design communityoperating within shell.
It sat underneath the itumbrella.
But architect yep, we'll go anduse those guys.
Communications we'll go and usethose guys.
Um, oh, accessibility.
Oh, my god, we've got Meyerover here who knows more than
(17:11):
anybody in the entire world orused her.
And we had illustrators, we hadUI designers, we had CX, ux
service design, and it was likethere are literally agencies out
there, high-flying, big-nameagencies, that cannot call on
this talent.
And everybody, everybody wasjust like I don't want to leave.
(17:34):
Why would I want to leave?
It's not a question about money, because God knows Shell does
not pay the rest of the money.
It does not.
It's not about the work,because most of the work is
given to you, as here's yoursolution make it look pretty.
It was the fact that theleadership team within EXD,
especially yourself, actuallygave people permission to push
(17:57):
back against, that actually gavedesigners the power to design,
to actually say no, but not justno, full stop.
It was no, and so you gavedesigners the chance to actually
not just design but to teachabout design.
And then you would put them alltogether just get them talking.
And that sort of atmosphere,that sort of camaraderie, I've
(18:22):
never come across before and.
I don't ever come across again,and the fact that you did that
by design yourself one of thesedays.
I should turn this around andinterview you instead.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
There's a threat.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, honestly, when I came to the end and I could
illustrate to yourselves and tothe higher ups that they were
paying lip service to Agile,that they were paying lip
service to design thinking, thatthey were paying lip service to
production, that they werepaying lip service to
(18:56):
interaction design, lip serviceto service design, and that
could actually show them notjust why it was failing, where
it was failing and who wasfailing.
And because we had set up thissystem where the people who
didn't want to listen wouldn'tlisten, but the ones who did.
That made a huge difference.
(19:16):
Because I was the secretshopper, I was the outsider, I
wasn't part of edged it, notthen.
And then, when I'd actuallypresented all of that, he turned
around and said so do you feelabout joining?
What do I find?
It was just as simple as that.
It wasn't even a thought.
It was just like what do I sign?
And for two years, you, I andthe other members of the design
(19:42):
leadership team, we fought toughand nail at what we got.
It's just astounding.
Every chance I get now where Italk about design as a culture,
design as a part of business, ofoperations, that is the model I
know.
So the fact that we got there.
(20:03):
You've done it for five years.
I've been there for two, andthen the entire thing was
scrapped by accountants.
Yeah, if the rumors are true,they are now starting to
understand what they have lost.
But yeah, we lost what thedesign team lost.
That was profaned, but everysingle person who left the XD
(20:27):
now has a new benchmark.
This is what good looks like.
This is what works.
This is what good looks like.
This is what works.
This is what's effective.
And it goes beyond designingwhat's on screen.
It goes beyond customerjourneys, wireframes and all of
those good things.
It actually goes to the way ofthinking and approaching design
(20:51):
as a commercial concept.
So, yeah, there was no way Iwas going to miss that up and,
even though still searching formy next position, that's the
kind of position I'm looking forand if I can't find it, that's
the source of position I willbuild yep, it wasn't easy um
duty was easy.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
It definitely didn't happen by random.
I mean, I'm not.
I mean you've got 10 years onme, um, and that 10 years is
significant.
There's an awful lot of bias inour sector in in, I think,
particularly in the creativesectors.
Um, if you hit mid-40s orthereabouts, then, yeah, goodbye
(21:34):
, even if you have got aninteresting haircut and, um,
that additional knowledge,expertise that folks like
yourself can draw upon, um,because that is priceless.
What I learned in agency landprimarily is okay, don't argue
(21:55):
with the client, find a way toinfluence the client so you can
find some common ground.
So you need to understand yourecosystem, understand what's
right about it, definitelyunderstand what's wrong about it
.
And then, yeah, try and figureout a way.
Now, the reason, after four orfive years or whatever, it was
(22:17):
where I got to the point of wetalk about design maturity model
, and that's when I thought Ineed someone to come and
invalidate this, because beforeI move to the next level of
maturity, I'd better make surethat what I'm doing has got some
, it's got some legs.
I kind of knew.
But you get sucked into theecosystems as well.
(22:39):
You get too close, yeah andhaving second perspective having
the absolute luxury of beingable to bring you in and say,
okay, show me where this isbroken, show me where I've
screwed this right up, but ifthere's a couple of places that
seem like they're doing okay,then yeah, and you basically did
(23:02):
that very, very quickly.
That was pivotal.
That was absolutely pivotalbecause then this leadership
team that you, rather, myleadership team that you have
already referred to, the crackswithin that were also starting
to appear, because you get goodpeople, passionate people, they
(23:28):
want to do good work, they wantto succeed, but you don't want
them making the same mistakesthat you yourself and other
people who are at the same levelof seniority as you have made.
And that's a difficult skill,which I'm still trying to
perfect.
And so those cracks began toappear, but we muddled through.
(23:51):
It was okay.
Introdu, introducing design opswas awesome.
That for me, besides you comingin and saying, yeah, it looks
like it's okay, yeah, a bit wellhere's the weaknesses
communications is where thingsaren't connecting when they
should.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, that was great, but then you did actually need
the design ops to go on top ofit.
Yes, actually say okay, now werecognize the problem, this is
the process.
We are going to have to fix it.
Yep, and that's what design opsdid.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
With bells on.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, let's give him a shout out.
He deserves it.
Loriano was just magnificent atthat.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
No, he was Definitely , but we had to have you know
failed before then, which we didum, and then I mean so, for
example, I just need a couple ofdashboards.
Thank you very much.
Six months, seven months, eightmonths nothing, absolutely
nothing coming out of my lt forcrying out loud, and he turns up
(24:53):
less than two weeks.
There you go.
Here's the first couple ofiterations, and it was such a
relief because then we couldsocialize those metrics.
And why I wanted yourself tolook after analytics is usually
what I found is when folks arebuilding up capabilities, they
start with the analytics.
You genuinely couldn't do thatat Shell, because the roles
(25:16):
weren't in place, the structurewasn't in place, the methodology
wasn't there, the governancewasn't there.
Governance certainly wasn't.
What are you measuring?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, and why are you measuring?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
it yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
What led you to that decision?
Let's be honest you came tothat decision because you set
the metrics on what would beeasiest to achieve so that you
could get your bonus at the endof the year.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yep, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I bet you actually own the bonus by actually
delivering what needs to be done.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
The land of corporates.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Very much so.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
So one of my real book bears is every now and then
somebody will come up and sayhow do you actually show the
right design?
Good God, we have got tons ofKPIs that will do that.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
All for now, though.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Well, you said that.
But, like I said, everybody who, okay, forget the spines,
everybody they threw out likerubbish knows what good looks
like, I may not have come acrossit to that sort of level.
So when you look at it as whatwe did for Shell for those five
(26:24):
years you were there, the twoyears I was there, we improved
their design capability.
That they didn't want it.
In the end that's down to them.
What we did, more than that,was actually empower a whole new
generation of designers tounderstand what design is.
And it's not just the pictureson screen.
(26:46):
The heavy lifting is in themental mode.
It's okay.
So how do we get from there tothere?
And before you've even put themto paper, stuck it on a board,
a pixel on a screen.
The heavier lifting you've donementally to actually decide
what you actually want topresent to them is your thing
right?
That is huge.
(27:08):
And the fact that they knew theycould do that but still have
support from leaders, from peersthemselves, was an eye opener
for most of them, and the factthat each and every single
designer, top of the day, wantedto help people who weren't as
experienced as them spokevolumes.
(27:28):
As they spoke volumes when itwas announced that I was leaving
.
It's the only time I haveactually had my own team members
crying because they knew thechanges were coming and there
was nothing they could do aboutit.
Yes, some of it was losing sucha wonderful, beautiful manager
(27:50):
as myself, but some of it, quiterationally, was where are the
gains from this?
we can't see it, and the reasonthey couldn't see is because
they knew what good was and tohave from juniors, interns,
freshers, all the way up toreally senior designers still
coming in and doing that,helping each other, both
(28:13):
downwards, upwards, upwards,left and right, sharing
experiences.
It was amazing, it was quitetelling at the time of leaving,
how many people I just had briefcontact with over my tenure
there we're calling up andsaying this is terrible, how is
this happening?
What's going on?
You're still talking to thewrong person.
(28:33):
Talk to your peers, talk toyour bosses, because we haven't,
we've only got so far.
It's all going to go per sewith everything that you've
built.
Yeah Well, guess what?
We've actually had some peoplecome to us and say we want
design to fail, we want to goback to what it was five, six
(28:55):
years ago when you justdelivered what was told.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well, great, that's what you've got.
Yeah, happy days and good luckwith that.
It's not going to work.
And it's not going to work withthis new paradigm called
artificial intelligence.
Try doing that without designand um, yeah, but it's the same
pattern, right?
It's a conversation I've hadwith debbie levitt's,
conversation I've had withthomas wil.
It's a tool.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
It's just another tool.
We're actually getting fromconcept to end design as quickly
as possible.
It takes away all of the heavylifting.
The big problem for me with AIisn't actually the technology.
It isn't that it's doing thingsthat people normally do.
(29:54):
It's the fact that so manyplaces are using it not as a
tool, but as a replacement tohuman beings to maintain the
status quo.
Where's the innovation?
Where is your value?
What is your definition ofsuccess?
Because, if your definition ofsuccess, because if your
definition of success is doingexactly the same, just cheaper,
(30:19):
that translates to failingcheaper.
Now those places that aretaking AI are going to the
designers and going okay, whatwe can do here now is get AI to
actually sit to the parametersyou want.
So you tell AI what it is,instead of AI telling you what
(30:39):
it is, and when you get to thepoint where okay, so
(31:09):
no-transcript, and you actuallydesign the output, so many
places now are going AI's doneit Goodbye designer.
And they get surprised when itbreaks.
No, it can't work like that.
(31:31):
The potential for AI to get ridof so much of the mental heavy
lifting and just leaving you tobe creative, just letting
designers purely design, it'sjust mind-blowing.
Yeah, but when you and what dopeople do you think it's for?
Yeah, turn me into a Simpsonscharacter.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
There's a couple of things to that right.
I mean it's the age-old race toshiny which hasn't changed, and
in part because of theignorance that's still prevalent
.
I mean, you've been doing thisfor 40 years.
I'm touching 30 years myself.
It's kind of crazy that peoplestill don't know the value that
(32:09):
design brings, because it's notdecoration, it's governance.
Now put that in the context ofShell and other places as well.
We had this wonderful thing doneby Rick Sesnius I always
butcher his surname and he wasbrilliant.
He was basically putting theframeworks in for IT governance
(32:31):
and they had this thing calledSoftware Engineering Management
System, sems, and I said can Ihave a policy for that, for
experience design?
Yes, absolutely, I think youshould, said Rick.
And so we did.
That became an incrediblypowerful weapon, an influencing
tool for folks who turn aroundand say I just need you to do X,
(32:54):
y and Z.
Yeah, but X, y and Z requiresall of these tasks to be done by
the right caliber of designpractitioner.
And here are examples of theartifacts that you're actually
going to be receiving.
And that empowered not just thecapability, it empowered IT and
the other side of that line.
It empowered all of our lovelydesigners.
(33:17):
That governance framework iscritical Because right now it is
absolutely the Wild West.
It's a race to shiny, it isanyone can do this.
It is if I can type into akeyboard and get the right
quote-unquote prompts.
I mean there's courses forhaving knowing how to put
prompts in there for crying outloud.
I mean, bless them, someone'sgot to make a buck, yeah, and
(33:39):
they are um, but that's okay.
But if you're not consideringhuman beings, what exactly and
who exactly are you creatingproducts and services for?
Because we are creators, we arethinkers, we are makers, we are
supporters, we are everythingthat makes us feel the way that
(34:04):
we do, and that's good and bad,bad.
And unless humans are incontrol of this wonderful thing
called the ai, I don't see thepoint of it ai is not the danger
if you have people using ai.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
It's the danger if you've replaced all the people
with ai.
That doesn't need pain.
How are those people going topay for the products that the AI
is producing?
Self-fulfilling prophecy.
You want AI to replace jobsGuess what Yours is next in the
line.
You want AI to be a tool forpeople to improve, designed to
(34:43):
improve, processed to improvelife in general.
Great, Try people to use the AIproblem.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah, exciting times for sure.
Definitely what's next for you,Because you could do anything
you wanted to do, and that's anawesome position to be in.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
And a strange position.
You said it yourself.
I have done this for 40 years.
I have nothing to actuallyprove to myself.
Everything that I wanted to doI have sort of achieved with the
(35:25):
exception of running a hugecompany to actually have design
as design-led.
But, I don't have the monetarybacking for that.
So where I am now is I don'tgive a damn about the title, I
don't give a damn about thecompany.
(35:46):
What I care about is making adifference and, as we did in EXD
, it's helping the nextgeneration of designers achieve
everything they can.
I had some exceptional teachersand mentors when I was coming
here.
Now it's time to pay back.
(36:07):
All I want to do, as long as mymortgage is paid and I am
making a difference, that's allI want to do, simple things.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yes, simple things.
I'm pretty much of the samemindset, but one thing that is
still bothering me is theseroles that I see advertised and
folks call me, contact me, sendthe carrier pigeon to me because
(36:47):
that job description has madeit so explicit that they would
not entertain applications orthey prefer applications for
people who do have sectorexperience X, y and Z right.
What's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
It's not just you need to have sector experience,
you have to have experience ofthis particular system of design
.
You have to be able to knowfigment, know vision, to know
frame, to know all of thesedifferent things.
And if you haven't got that,I'm not even going to consider
(37:23):
you Again.
These are all just tools, justas design.
If I'm designing for aMandalorian, or if I am
designing for a Victorian lamp,or I am designing for drug
paraphernalia 1987, I'm stilldesigning.
(37:46):
I don't need to be the drug, Idon't need to be a Victorian, I
don't need to be a Mandalorian.
I do need to know where I'mdesigning, designing.
I don't need to be the rocket,I don't need to be a Victorian,
I don't need to be a Mandalorian, I do need to know where I'm
designing.
Yes that is all I need to do.
And what I need to do on top ofthere is know who am I
designing it for?
What are their expectations?
What is it they want?
That's where the user researchcomes in, and I'm not going to
(38:07):
be talking to any Victorians,but I do know experts in
Victoriana who are going to beable to talk to me.
I don't know any Mandaloriansbecause they don't exist, but I
know lots of people who knowwhat they want from a
Mandalorian Drug user.
I'm not a drug user.
I'm too freaking scared ofneedles.
I've never been able to swallowtablets until recently, thank
(38:30):
goodness, but that doesn'tmatter.
The person who's doing theproduction knows what they want,
and I need to understand that.
Now, if I make those things outof metal, wood, plastic, foam,
whatever I'm making them out of,whether I'm doing it with a
sharp knife, with a hammer, witha saw, I've got a whole
(38:50):
multitude of different things.
The fact that I can work acrossall of those comes down to the
fact that I know how to designregardless of setting, and I
know how to build regardless oftools.
And when you've actually gotthis framework that says fit
your bomb into this little boxthere, regardless of everything
(39:11):
else you bring to the role,who's winning?
Not the person who's actuallygoing to be buying somebody who
does this little much or thismuch.
Again, the devaluing of design.
It's the idea that design is,it's deliverable.
It's the idea that design isthere purely for aesthetics.
(39:35):
If that was true, god help deafpeople.
They've never had anythingdesigned.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Blind people.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
they've never had anything designed in their life.
It's, you know, God helpengineering.
Nothing under the bonnet of thecar has ever been designed.
She don't see it.
No, design is not aesthetics.
Design is the process thatdelivers a solution, and that
solution can be anything, andyour influences for that design
come from so many differentsectors, way outside of digital.
(40:06):
Yep, absolutely, and when I seethose sorts of things, it's like
, okay, can we have theconversation Instead of the tick
box?
Can we have the conversationInstead of you telling me what
box I need to crawl into?
Tell me what skills youactually need, Because guess
what, if you don't know Framer,spend a week on YouTube, you'll
(40:28):
be up to speed.
Same with Figma.
There are thousands andthousands.
So are you actually employingsomebody who knows how to work
Framer or somebody who knows howto design?
Are you employing somebody whocan operate Figma with no idea
why they are operating?
Those conversations still driveme up the wall, but, conversely
, those are also the sort oforganizations I do want to work
(40:51):
for, so that I can actually showthem.
This is what you're missing outon.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Yep Couldn't agree more, fella Could not agree more
.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Same thing with AI.
As I said earlier, AI is notbeing used to make companies
better.
It's being made to justmaintain a status quo.
No innovation.
Just use this to stay where weare instead of use this to
actually take us higher andhigher and higher.
Yep design.
(41:21):
That's the problem.
It's not ai.
It's the problem.
It's bad thinking.
It's bad business practice.
It's the idea that you know thecost of everything and the
value of that.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, with bells on Folks
making decisions that, yeah,they have no business making
decisions on.
But that's the world that welive in, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
It is yeah.
So again, that's my bigcriteria for what I do.
Next is can I make a difference?
Can I deliver?
Yeah, no problem.
Can I make a difference?
That's out of my hands, butyeah, the first person that
turns around to me and says wedon't have a huge amount of
money, but we do want to getbetter and we do want to make a
(42:09):
difference, can you help us?
Speaker 1 (42:10):
I will sign on the bottom line yep, I mean,
hopefully I'll find somethingand then I can drag you back in
um, because that was a luxury,an absolute luxury, um, not
having to butt heads withanybody else and just knowing
that we putted heads, but wechallenged each other.
(42:31):
That's different.
That's different, um, but in agood way, in a productive way,
professionally, politely, um, Ithink george carling would be
proud.
Bless him.
It's just amazing.
That's cool, all right.
So how long have we beenyapping?
Speaker 2 (42:47):
for hour, hour, and a half, about 20 minutes.
Yeah, it's okay Is thereanything you wanted to share?
I mean, the only thing that Ithink we haven't touched on is
the number of people who are incharge of design leadership who
can neither design nor lead.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Oh, what a can of worms you are opening up, Mr
Powell.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Absolutely, and I will go and upset people even
further by saying so much ofthis is actually our own damn
fault.
We were so eager to take anydesign job offered to us that we
didn't care who was offering it.
And when people benefited fromour designs to further their own
(43:36):
careers, that didn't help us,that helped them.
So now there are a lot ofpeople who are design leads who
have themselves never designedanything or have been in control
of people with design.
They've never actually lived,certainly not by example, but
they know how to play thecorporate game.
(43:56):
That's also a segment of thecurrent business that is either
going to collapse or turneverything over.
We need to actually be certainthat design is being taught,
especially human centered design.
I still remember in Shell whereI asked a group of POs who the
(44:24):
end user was.
There was one I turned aroundand said we are Not.
One of them was actually goingto use the damn product at the
end, but they were the end user.
There was another project whereall of the personas, all of the
user journeys were produced bysystem architects.
Never sat in front of the userin their lives.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
What they were doing was what they want the user to
do rather than what does theuser do that that's not unique
to share?
No, not by a long talk, no, Imean not surprisingly, it's
something that you know.
Lots of folks who I've spokento on on this podcast have said
um, the lack of authentic design, and I don't mean that in a
(45:09):
woke, authentic way, butauthentic in so much as
designers need to be led bydesigners and those leadership
positions.
It's not just about you knowwhether you went to chelsea, led
a team of five or six, you know.
(45:32):
Do you have commercial acumen?
How much scar tissue have youaccumulated?
Are you sweating bucketsbecause you're in a room full of
people who you know have norespect for you?
Do you know how to win themover?
Or walk out and pick and chooseyour battles or ask them to
leave the room Right?
(45:55):
All of that requires experience.
And even if you do have a rolelike that, how can you be
mentoring and helping yourdirect reports, let alone their
team practitioners, if you don'tknow the basics right?
I mean, famously, I asked oneof my direct reports.
(46:16):
You have to learn at least onedesign tool.
I don't care what it is.
Illustrator Agjura, I don'tcare.
Figma oh yeah, I'm using Figma.
Okay, great, that's good.
Just one, that's fine.
Turned out that it was FigJam.
And then this person was alsomentoring allegedly.
And you kind of think toyourself well, odd, it's just
(46:41):
odd.
So you have to get thefoundations right.
And these folks who are indesign leadership positions,
good luck to you If you'relearning as you go along, good
luck to you, but don't sit thereand flaunt yourself off as the
grand poobah of design.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
That's where you're going.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
But if you haven't walked that path and it is a
very long path, it's a windypath, it's something that I
think every single design leaderhas to be able to do it's the
scar tissue that they haveaccumulated, it's the manner in
which that they hold themselves,which is the most telling, the
(47:25):
most telling the most telling.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Um, it's just, it's weird.
We're in such a weird space.
I liken it to somebody whoknows how to drive a car telling
formula one drivers how toactually drive a little
knowledge is very dangerous,very, very dangerous.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
Great Look, it's been awesome.
Thanks for doing this.
Thanks for being patient enoughto do this, thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Not a problem, anytime.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.