December 2, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode, hosts Alexandra Bolton and Matthew Moss are joined by sustainability expert Changhua Wu. She is a non-executive director at Tianqui Lithium, an energy materials company with operations in China, Australia and Chile. Changhua is a leading figure of sustainability in China, she is part of the Community of Climate Governance Experts of the World Economic Forum and the Chair of the Asia Pacific Water Forum.
The conversation covers an overview of climate governance in China; its challenges as a high greenhouse gas emitter country, but also its proactive approach to a green transformation. Changhua also reflects on a wide range of sustainability issues: from water challenges in the region to cultural sensitivity.
For more information on what we do, visit climate-governance.org.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Directors' Dialogues from the
Climate Governance Initiative,where we lift the lid on the
different ways that companyboard directors are speaking up
for climate in their boardrooms.
In each episode we meet aclimate champion who's been
leading or nudging or badgeringtheir boardroom colleagues
towards climate-friendlypolicies and practices.
I'm Alexandra Bolton.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
And I'm Matthew Moss.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And today we're delighted to have Changhua Wu
with us.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Changhua Wu is a member of the Community of
Climate Governance Experts.
She's a director in bothprivate and not-for-profit
organisations.
An advisor, researcher and ananalyst in the climate space
want to ask about, about you,about your, your, your journey,
um, as they say, about youreducation, your first steps on
the career ladder, um, and howyou, um, how you got to the
(00:55):
position that you currentlyoccupy, wearing many hats in
many organizations thank you,matthew, and thank you,
alessandra for having me on thispodcast.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Uh, you know it's's a great opportunity and an honor
to share my experience with morecolleagues.
You know I'm still relativelynew on this journey as a
non-executive director, butsomehow, you know, one year on,
and I feel like somehow this isnot only significant but also
(01:25):
really meaningful journey for meto pursue as well.
Also, the senior global seniorfellow for the Institute of
Public Environmental Policy,which is a nonprofit Chinese NGO
(01:49):
and which runs the onlyindependent public environmental
big data platform which ispretty much driving, you know,
transparency, accountabilityagenda, particularly now.
We all know why it is importantthere.
Besides that, I've also beenserving as the China-Asia
Affairs Director at the officeof Jeremy Rifkin, who is more my
(02:12):
mentor because he's the authorof the Third Industrial
Revolution, the Anthropy.
Now he's having another newbook coming out in China in a
month or so which is calledPlanet Aqua, which is on water.
But anyway, so that's so.
I've been.
Sounds like a lot of things,you know, real wide.
(02:35):
I started my, so I was educatedmore like as a journalist, and
so I started my career as theeditor of the English edition
China Environment News and,after graduating from Chinese
Academy of Social Sciences there.
Interesting enough, that wasliterally, you know, my page
zero to get into environmentalissues there, and so that was
(03:01):
around 1992.
And so when the globalcommunity actually was really
busy preparing for the realEarth Summit there, so I was
lucky enough as really totallyyoung professional getting into
this space and of course, withthe duty to write, to edit and
to communicate a lot of messagesthere, not only from China but
(03:22):
also from global perspectivethere.
So that was sort of my reallythe beginning of the journey,
you know, in the environmentallandscape there.
Then of course I got a chanceto go to the US and studied
there at University of MarylandSchool of Public Affairs,
majored in environmental policyand management.
That pretty much started myshift in career, I think, as
(03:47):
actually a policy analyst there.
Then I joined the WRI WaterResources Institute afterwards
and really started to work on,of course in the beginning, all
the China-specific programprojects there, but later
managed to help create the ChinaStudies program and literally
really focusing on China.
So that was sort of an earlycareer experience to become a
(04:11):
really policy analyst actuallyspecialized on China's
environment, climate change,energy policy and sustainability
issues, including actuallyenvironmental health issues
there.
So in a nutshell that's sort ofmy early training and learning.
And of course then you get intoyou know different projects
there and I think around.
(04:32):
You know that was around 1997during the Kyoto process.
So my step into professional,step into actually the climate
change landscape, that waspretty much the turning point
there Because back then globalcommunity needed, you know
everyone was making the effortsto drive to deliver a Kyoto
process, you know the KyotoProtocol and China somehow was
(04:55):
put in a very difficult position.
It's the largest developingcountries and I remember back
then you know the Clintonadministration and Gore Vice
President Gore back thenactually really made a
tremendous effort trying to getChina on board or whatever.
So luckily I was involved inthat sort of a process,
particularly starting tofocusing on the nexus of the
(05:18):
energy policy, air pollution,climate change issues there.
So in the end I think Iwouldn't say you know China's
really joining Kyoto Protocolwas because of the project we
did back then.
But definitely I think you knowthe efforts we've made.
The joint research efforts,particularly from the US and
China together for a couple ofyears really made a significant
(05:41):
impact, putting on the table tothe top leadership in China back
then, basically a strong casesaying, actually, you know,
taking stronger efforts to fightclimate change, benefiting
China in terms of, you know,public health and, you know, and
of course, we can pursuecleaner energy, energy
(06:01):
efficiency.
So it's a winning strategy andthat was a simple but a very
strong message there.
So that was the beginning ofthe climate change there, fastly
forward.
So my experience, you know, as apolicy analyst, you do not just
focusing on the market-basedinstruments or one particular
piece of the policy.
There you started getting intoso okay, laws like legislation,
(06:25):
regulations, standards, thepolicy incentives there that you
started to deep dive intofurther at the regional level.
And so, because China is alarge country, you have very
well developed regions as wellas less developed regions there.
So, at the regional diversitythere, but also really looking
into different industries, youknow.
For instance, back then laterof course, I joined the climate
(06:48):
group and really, you know,becoming the greater China
director for the climate group,setting up this sort of platform
in China, totally, totallyfocused on climate change, and
that was a sort of the stepafter the World Resources
Institute there.
So in that context, there youstarted to learn, you know,
started even to look attechnology.
So now, of course, very recently, about a year and a half, a
(07:11):
little bit more than a year ago,I officially became a
non-executive director of theTianqi Lithium, which is one of
the largest, not only in Chinabut globally, lithium material.
You know technology companiesthere, although it's not simply
just say materials but also it'salready expanded to upstream.
For instance, it has assets inAustralia, it invested in Chile,
(07:35):
but also downstream it alsoinvests in smart too, on the EV
side as well.
But the core expertise of thecompany is more like in the
middle range, right processing,which is a chemical process.
Actually, the reason why thechairman of the company, the
leadership of the company,decided to reach out to me to
bring me on board actually toco-chair the ESG sustainability
(07:58):
subcommittee of the board, ofcourse to support the corporate
sustainability agenda, for aparticular reason because the
leadership has the vision levelof ambition and definitely would
like to continue its leadership.
So that's very important sortof foundation that for me you
know being part of the family,and really start to contribute
(08:21):
my expertise, you know, throughthis very powerful vehicle as a
non-executive board director tohelp facilitate and drive the
sustainability agenda.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, thank you.
I really want to dig into thatpoint that you ended up on about
the powerful position of thenon-executive director.
So I mean, firstly, perhaps youcould tell us something about
the corporate board structure inChina.
What is the position of anon-executive director in the
(08:56):
organizations that you've beeninvolved with, and what sort of
responsibilities do they have?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Sure, you know from the regulatory context.
So we have China.
This is a heavily regulatedsort of context there.
By the way, it's not just, it'snot the not-for-profit, you
know, non-governmental, whateverorganizations there.
So it's governed by the companylaw and the you know the equity
law.
So those are the twofundamental pieces of
(09:23):
legislation really governing thecapital market actually in
China and in terms of thebehavior of listed companies'
behavior there.
So for a board which is legallyrequired, that's a basic
structure actually for anypublic listed companies there.
You have to have that actually.
So usually, you know.
(09:45):
So you have shareholders.
Shareholders are the owners ofthe company, right?
So the board is that legallydesignated actually on behalf of
the older shareholders actuallyto govern, you know the company
and so you know, in terms ofnumber of people, tianng Lithium
has eight board members.
(10:05):
I think different companiesprobably vary a little bit, not
too many.
It depends on whatever theyneed, I guess actually, and the
structure of the board.
So for executive directors,they are, you know, for instance
, the owner of the companies.
You know, for instance, theowner of the companies.
They are the largestshareholders of the companies
(10:29):
and they are the CEO executive,you know, and the CEOs of the
companies.
So they have their sort of youknow, the own part of the
companies, certain shares of thecompanies there and the, you
know, from the CEO's perspective, that's his designated actually
to run the company.
(10:52):
And we have the seniormanagement team basically there.
And for non-executive membersthere with a very specific
reason because regulatorsrealize for any companies,
whatever the sectors are there,because the laws, regulations
require many, many things, it'sreally difficult actually for
all executive directors tofulfill that sort of duties.
So non-executive directorshipis designated to be more like a
(11:17):
specialized expertise right Tobring a small group specialized
expertise to join the board tosupport the company, to govern
the company.
Of course, if you look at themandatory, for instance,
auditing, accounting, auditing,that's because that's crucial,
that's key right.
And you know, if you look atthe capital market there, if you
(11:39):
look at the nomination,remuneration, things like that,
termination remuneration, thingslike that, so there are a few.
And also investment, you knowstrategic investment committee
subcommittee there as well.
So then, of course, coming downto our sort of space there, so
ESG sustainability, you knowit's not specified in terms of
(12:01):
you know each board actuallyneeds to have, you know, a
specialized person you know inthe accessibility and then you
need to create a subcommitteefor that particular purpose
there.
But it's sort of voluntary.
But the regular contest thereis said already because it's a
special expertise right.
(12:21):
So this is sort of nonexecutive directors, a group of
people who somehow arespecialized in their
professional field, theirexpertise actually are needed
for a board, for a companyactually to govern better, you
know, the company's business.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So we have a large number of complex and
interconnected systems, ofsystems happening here, where
you're talking about energy,food, water, infrastructure,
housing.
We can go on, but both in thewater context and also as an
independent director of ChangiLithium, you will be needing to
make decisions that balance lotsof different things that are
(13:02):
connected.
So a good example in mining isthe environmental challenges
that are associated with miningand, of course, the growing
demand for sustainable energysolutions, so lithium-free
batteries, for example.
Have you seen any good examplesof how boards are managing to
balance both these sort of twopotentially conflicting issues,
but also the wider systemseffects that boards are having?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
So Tianqi Lithium, you know this is sitting in a
very sort of interestingscenario.
On one side we're all pursuingclean, accelerated clean energy
transition, right, batteries,EVs, whatever.
So it provides products,solutions actually to fulfill
that sort of acceleratedtransition there.
(13:49):
But then there's the other side, meaning so we have to also
make sure that's delivered in asustainable manner.
That's pretty much the corenarrative within the board room
there, right?
And so then what do we do?
So there are different tiers Atthe bottom line.
There are laws and regulationsthere, right?
(14:10):
China has rather restrictivelaws and regulations on the
environmental side, on theecosystem side, on the water
side or whatever, even though wehave specific, you know, on the
mining sector, specific lawsand regulations there.
So from the complianceperspective there, sector
specific laws, regulations there.
So from the complianceperspective, there are very
specific laws, regulations,standards that the company in
that sector has to fulfill, hasto comply.
(14:31):
So that's the starting point.
Then P&G Lithium, you know, hasbeen a leadership company.
So the way the mindset of thecompany's top leadership board
is say okay, this is business,it's not just a compliance issue
, this is about a business there, right, and so I think that's a
very different sort ofincentive for the boards
(14:54):
actually to really look at theissues in a very different
manner.
So the narrative, theconversation in the boardroom is
not just like oh gosh, you know, we have laws, regulations, we
have to do this, we have to dothat, but rather very, really
proactively, positively lookingat the solutions there.
That's why the company hastaken many, many steps, for
instance on the mining side.
(15:14):
You know we call it greenmining.
That's already a mainstreamsolution.
The company has been doing that.
You know there are certain sortof standards.
You know voluntary, mandatorystandards or frameworks already
out there.
They started to reach out tothe sector globally actually to
advance the agenda as we aretalking about it here.
(15:36):
It's not like we all have laws,regulations covering everything
or standards coveringeverything.
They already it's not In many,many cases relatively new.
So you have this sort ofvacancies in terms of standards,
frameworks, you know whatever.
You know that sort of, you knowreally regulating, guiding the
actions there.
So the company would takereally initiatives to not only
(15:57):
to sell but to bring otherstogether of their industry
together.
You know even started toparticipate in developing
standards within the ISOframework, right.
So that's one thing that if youlook at the supply chain.
So, okay, guys, supply chain isanother thing.
Procurement, particular fromprocurement system, we need to
(16:20):
really make sure within thecompany, the procure, we have
really well developed a systemthere to make sure we have very
clear, defined criteria,framework to manage that and
that's embedded in there as well.
But in the meantime, another wayactually of looking at it, so
within the company, one majorthing actually I've been sort of
advocating, which I also feelrewarded in a way that actions
(16:43):
are taking.
So today within the company,the sustainability issue, you
know, climate issue, is not justto say, ok, this is one
particular department you aredesignated to lead, that it's
not, it's pretty much embeddedin everything.
So you know, the board member,non-executive board directors
actually we've been alreadydoing this twice already started
(17:06):
to reach out, ask the secretaryto the committee supporting the
board basically, so literallyusing designated time and
opportunity to get the financeCFO on board with us.
So we need to learn how thefinance system works actually
within the company, how thebudget is made right, how they
(17:26):
really follow through everything, and so you know it was on
separate cases there.
So we started to meet with, youknow, the C, whatever O's
actually of differentdepartments so far actually.
So CFO, the guy in charge ofthe supply chain procurement
besides sustainability, there'sa department designated for that
as well.
So CFO, the guy in charge ofthe supply chain procurement
(17:48):
Besides sustainability, there isa department designated for
that as well.
And the sales and safety.
And now there's a relatively newsort of a segment being created
within the company, not at thedepartment level but above that
but under the CEO is calledoversight and auditing.
So of course, auditing hasalways been an important part of
(18:09):
the governance actually for anycompany.
But rather than just you knowdifferent departments, including
you know auditing, but now it'scalled oversight and auditing
and created sort of lifted upfurther, above all the others,
so creating mechanisms.
So rather than relying onothers as internal sort of
(18:31):
auditing to find a problemthrough it you know and then
find the problems that tell you.
So yeah, this is wrong.
But rather the company itselfstarted to build up this
mechanism, governance mechanismsthere, make sure you know,
driving through the nodes withinthe company to do so.
So Tianqi Lithium today sets areally good example At least.
(18:54):
Actually their efforts havebeen recognized by the sector,
by the industry in China, tocertain extent globally.
So they've been in the globalresources, you know, mining and
whatever, because there aredifferent platforms actually
globally there as well, so theyall be part of it.
So from that perspective again,so the tone, you know it turns
(19:19):
to be more positive, rather thansay, gosh, this is their
liability, right, non-compliance, we have to do this and that,
by the way, actually I not onlychair the subcommittee of ESG
sustainability, I also sit onthe subcommittee of strategic
investment there as well, right,so for the company, just
(19:41):
imagining, you know, I'm not aninvestor or whatever stuff like
that, but somehow, you know,they somehow see my value.
So this is more like about youknow, to make sure, when the
look into potential investmentopportunities there, somehow
sustainability has to be animportant part of this strategy
(20:04):
there as well.
And from that perspective, Ijust give you a little bit of my
learning on that curve.
So, for instance, for anymerger, acquisition, investment
decision, whatever you had to doall the auditing right, legal,
accounting, financial, whateverstuff like that how do you make
sure this climate, thesustainability elements, is well
(20:27):
integrated, embedded in thatprocess is key.
That's what I learned basically, rather than say, oh, after
this investment decision is madealready, let's take a look at,
you know, think about carbonfootprints, you know, whatever,
that's going to be too late,right?
So that's a major step thecompany has also taken.
(20:48):
It's a decision made by theboard, so we move ahead to the
early stage.
I can give you this explanation.
My argument is that, so,because the company has
committed to, for instance, ofcourse, by 2050, carbon
neutrality, so I'm alignedcarbon emission reduction
targets there.
Right, it's not just aboutexisting, you have to look into
(21:09):
the future.
Right, that's about investment.
So when you decide what assetyou're going to invest in, you
have to take a look into thispotential carbon footprint there
as well.
So the argument is not hard tomake at all.
Right, it's more like okay, howdo you do it?
It's not case by case, ratherto embed that sort of thinking
(21:32):
and action into the system, intothe process, to the early stage
, as early as possible, right,for instance, there are cases of
probably not adequateinformation available, available
for data, whatever.
Yeah, there are alwayschallenges like that.
But this awareness, right, thissort of awareness of the issues
(21:53):
there needs to be there at thevery beginning.
That's another major stepactually, the board has taken as
well.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Glorious.
Thanks so much for that.
I think our listeners can hearthe unique position that you
occupy in this space withwearing all of these hats, and I
know we've mentioned thatyou're a member of the World
Economic Forum's community ofclimate experts as well, so you
bring a colossal breadth ofexperience to this conversation
(22:26):
and the conversations you havein the boardroom.
You've mentioned a littlealready about the unique
position that China is in here.
It's the world's highest carbonemitter, but also the world's
largest investor in renewableenergy.
It is a colossal and diversecountry.
(22:51):
As you've said, there are verypoor regions.
There are very highly developedregions.
The sectors that its companiesare active in are very, very
varied, so I wanted to ask youto reflect a little bit about
how you see China's uniqueopportunities and
(23:12):
responsibilities when it comesto climate change and carbon
emission.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
I could talk very big in a way, so I don't want to
really spend time on that.
We all know why China isimportant, as you mentioned
already, as a world currentlargest emitter, you know,
contributing largely, actuallyin large proportion, to the new
growth of emission every year.
So of course, sometimes we jokeabout it to say, ok, globally,
(23:41):
if you want to address theclimate change challenge, you
first need to somehow decodeChina's fossil fuel,
particularly the coal issuesthere, because without that
there's no way we're going toaddress that.
It might not be fair to Chinabut, as I said jokingly, that
seems to be the reality To alarge extent.
(24:02):
Basically, also, it tells theimportance actually to not only
the country itself it needs totake actions to address those
issues but, very, veryimportantly, other countries
need to work with China there aswell.
Now, in terms of the solution,this is a really difficult story
to tell.
I think that to be fair toChina, the country with all the
(24:24):
data evidence there already, Idon't have to repeat that it's
really fascinating to see howthe country has managed to drive
the clean energy transition sofar.
If you look at the progresswe've made, particularly around
renewable energy, energyefficiency, renewable energy,
batteries, evs, this is mobility, energy storage grids so there
(24:47):
are many, many shining spotsactually highlights China has
delivered so far.
So why would China be able todo so?
I think compared to even the US, many parts of European
countries there, so thepolitical system is, compared to
me speaking, is a little bitsimpler in a way in terms of
(25:10):
decision making.
Right, top leadership in thiscountry decides that this is the
thing, then that's pretty muchthe signpost actually guiding
the shift that has been the case.
So China and the Chineseleadership has embraced
something really bigger calledecological civilization, and
(25:35):
it's big Civilization, is reallya big term.
Ecological.
We're all part of nature, right, and so that's really big sort
of agenda vision mission therealready.
But the more important thing isthat you cannot just say you
know that, yeah, that's all youknow.
Ecological civilization.
So what do you mean?
How do you deliver that?
(25:55):
I think that's a majormilestone the country has made
so far.
So there were three thingsactually to say.
What is it in it actually ofthe ecological civilization
specifically, china wants todeliver Three things.
First, is ecological red linesGlobally we call it planetary
boundaries there, right, so thewhole country, particularly the
(26:17):
land, space, actually beenreally examined to the nitty
gritty details.
You know, look at, you know thefunctions, the biodiversity,
the health, whatever stuff likethat.
So that's one thing.
The second one is really aboutpricing nature, right, so we
take a lot, we take resourcesfrom nature.
It's not free, right, for along time we've been doing that.
(26:39):
So it's free.
Why we take?
We cut down trees, whatever, wejust pollute.
No, you cannot do that anymore.
So pricing, you know, from thepolicy perspective, that has
become a really powerful tool.
That relates to companies,meaning companies you know you
operate, meaning you have to payfor you know there's no free
riding anymore, right, and sothat's the second one.
(27:01):
The third one is about reallyequity issue.
We call it ecologicalcompensation.
This is a particular to addressupstream, downstream, sort of
you know differences there.
As I said, the coastal areas inChina, they sit at the very
downstream of the majorwatersheds, riversheds, very
well developed already, right,but then going upward, actually,
(27:24):
if you look at the Western,central, western part of the
country, in many cases they'rereally lagging behind and now,
with the rich, the wealth intheir hands, already developed a
region.
Say, ok, laws, regulations,said the environmental
protection quality I do not likepollution anymore.
Do not do chemical industry,whatever polluting industries
upstream, you know, upstreamdecision makers say wait a
(27:48):
second, what do I do?
How do I survive?
What's my livelihood there?
Right?
So this sort of compensationmechanism, those are the three
things actually, three majorpillars that have been deployed,
you know, continue to improveactually in this part of the
world already.
That's really important,foundational piece of, you know,
sort of China's decision totransform its economy.
(28:12):
So, of course, on one side, ofcourse we need to address the
coal issue and the fossil fuelissues.
There China has been doing so,but the level of sophistication
has been continuous to increase,you know progress, like you
know Rachel mentioned beforeabout your nature, right, we
have to take into the issue in avery more sophisticated manner,
(28:33):
right, and that requirespolicymakers make really the
right decisions or effectivedecisions actually to
incentivize the transitiontowards we'll call it a positive
tipping points.
Actually, at this moment it'snot an easy task at all.
Now, the complicated issue,particularly coming down to
(28:54):
emissions part, is the supplychain.
Supply chain, as we allrecognize and particularly talk
about within the web community.
We call it scope three, right,the thing is that China occupies
a large part of the industrialvalue chain.
If you look at the UN, unido,industrial Development
Organization, unido, I thinkthat they have this list look at
(29:17):
the different industries.
They categorize altogether 666industries globally.
China is the only country thathas all of them.
So China is put in a positionto really somehow, like it or
not, to lead the supply chaintransformation.
(29:38):
And now globally, of coursewe're all looking into, you know
, particular scope three,because that occupies a big
chunk of the emissions there.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I completely agree.
I think it was Antonio Guterreswho stole a film title and said
we need to do everythingeverywhere all at once.
It is about that completelyholistic thing.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah, and it's almost impossible.
That's the conclusion.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Nothing's ever perfect, but we can do what we
can do.
So what advice would you giveto peers people who are earlier
on their journey than you inthis space?
What advice would you give topeers that are trying to deliver
climate action on the boardroom?
What sort of that one thingyou'd like to pass on from all
your experience and knowledge?
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I don't think I have one simple suggestion, whatever
stuff like that.
As I said, in my particularcase, the reason I was given
this opportunity because of theleadership of the company.
Already, right, when you havethat sort of foundation, the DNA
, the culture in it, that's thebeginning, that's a good
(30:44):
beginning point actually.
So when I was given this chance, I decided to embrace it, right
.
So that's sort of the journeyI'm on now, basically.
So I went through the processand really, lucky enough,
because of the good foundation,the DNA, the culture, the
leadership awareness, the desire, the aspiration of the
(31:04):
leadership of the company, so Ido not have much problem in
terms of really speak veryopenly within the board, by the
way, actually.
So out of the eight boardmembers, four are women, board
members for women.
So now, actually it's now justa couple of months ago the
chairman is now the daughter.
So yeah, she was born in the1980s.
(31:28):
This is the younger generation,educated overseas, whatever.
So the chair of the board nowis a woman.
Then we have three othernon-executive directors a woman
there as well.
So this is really sort of theycreated this culture within this
eight people, right, thisculture element.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
That's wonderful to hear.
Absolutely, the learning andthe cultural sensitivity have
come across as really important.
Thank you, sadly, we're at time.
Thank you so much, shang-wenWu're at time.
Thank you so much, chang-wu,for your time and for sharing so
much of your expertise with ustoday.
It's been an absolute pleasurespeaking with you.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It really has.
Thanks so much, Chang-Wu.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
My pleasure, thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
The Climate Governance Initiative is a
global non-profit networkreaching more than 100,000 board
directors.
Most of the world's greenhousegas emissions come from the
private sector, so the centralquestion the initiative asks is
Thank you, and our work draws onthe principles for effective
climate governance set out bythe World Economic Forum.
If you want to know more,there's a link in the show notes
(32:43):
where all our content isavailable for free and where you
can find your local chapter.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
This podcast was recorded in July 2024.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
In our next episode, we'll be talking to Tina
Mavracki.
Tina is a brilliantlyexperienced board director and
strategic advisor with acolossal executive career in the
finance sector and in the realeconomy, working in energy and
metals and minerals, and hasbeen driving climate governance
in all of her organizations.
We're really looking forward totalking to Tina.
Hello and welcome to Directors' Dialogues from the
Climate Governance Initiative,where we lift the lid on the
different ways that companyboard directors are speaking up
for climate in their boardrooms.
In each episode we meet aclimate champion who's been
leading or nudging or badgeringtheir boardroom colleagues
towards climate-friendlypolicies and practices.
I'm Alexandra Bolton.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
And I'm Matthew Moss.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And today we're delighted to have Changhua Wu
with us.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Changhua Wu is a member of the Community of
Climate Governance Experts.
She's a director in bothprivate and not-for-profit
organisations.
An advisor, researcher and ananalyst in the climate space
want to ask about, about you,about your, your, your journey,
um, as they say, about youreducation, your first steps on
the career ladder, um, and howyou, um, how you got to the
(00:55):
position that you currentlyoccupy, wearing many hats in
many organizations thank you,matthew, and thank you,
alessandra for having me on thispodcast.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Uh, you know it's's a great opportunity and an honor
to share my experience with morecolleagues.
You know I'm still relativelynew on this journey as a
non-executive director, butsomehow, you know, one year on,
and I feel like somehow this isnot only significant but also
(01:25):
really meaningful journey for meto pursue as well.
Also, the senior global seniorfellow for the Institute of
Public Environmental Policy,which is a nonprofit Chinese NGO
(01:49):
and which runs the onlyindependent public environmental
big data platform which ispretty much driving, you know,
transparency, accountabilityagenda, particularly now.
We all know why it is importantthere.
Besides that, I've also beenserving as the China-Asia
Affairs Director at the officeof Jeremy Rifkin, who is more my
(02:12):
mentor because he's the authorof the Third Industrial
Revolution, the Anthropy.
Now he's having another newbook coming out in China in a
month or so which is calledPlanet Aqua, which is on water.
But anyway, so that's so.
I've been.
Sounds like a lot of things,you know, real wide.
(02:35):
I started my, so I was educatedmore like as a journalist, and
so I started my career as theeditor of the English edition
China Environment News and,after graduating from Chinese
Academy of Social Sciences there.
Interesting enough, that wasliterally, you know, my page
zero to get into environmentalissues there, and so that was
(03:01):
around 1992.
And so when the globalcommunity actually was really
busy preparing for the realEarth Summit there, so I was
lucky enough as really totallyyoung professional getting into
this space and of course, withthe duty to write, to edit and
to communicate a lot of messagesthere, not only from China but
(03:22):
also from global perspectivethere.
So that was sort of my reallythe beginning of the journey,
you know, in the environmentallandscape there.
Then of course I got a chanceto go to the US and studied
there at University of MarylandSchool of Public Affairs,
majored in environmental policyand management.
That pretty much started myshift in career, I think, as
(03:47):
actually a policy analyst there.
Then I joined the WRI WaterResources Institute afterwards
and really started to work on,of course in the beginning, all
the China-specific programprojects there, but later
managed to help create the ChinaStudies program and literally
really focusing on China.
So that was sort of an earlycareer experience to become a
(04:11):
really policy analyst actuallyspecialized on China's
environment, climate change,energy policy and sustainability
issues, including actuallyenvironmental health issues
there.
So in a nutshell that's sort ofmy early training and learning.
And of course then you get intoyou know different projects
there and I think around.
(04:32):
You know that was around 1997during the Kyoto process.
So my step into professional,step into actually the climate
change landscape, that waspretty much the turning point
there Because back then globalcommunity needed, you know
everyone was making the effortsto drive to deliver a Kyoto
process, you know the KyotoProtocol and China somehow was
(04:55):
put in a very difficult position.
It's the largest developingcountries and I remember back
then you know the Clintonadministration and Gore Vice
President Gore back thenactually really made a
tremendous effort trying to getChina on board or whatever.
So luckily I was involved inthat sort of a process,
particularly starting tofocusing on the nexus of the
(05:18):
energy policy, air pollution,climate change issues there.
So in the end I think Iwouldn't say you know China's
really joining Kyoto Protocolwas because of the project we
did back then.
But definitely I think you knowthe efforts we've made.
The joint research efforts,particularly from the US and
China together for a couple ofyears really made a significant
(05:41):
impact, putting on the table tothe top leadership in China back
then, basically a strong casesaying, actually, you know,
taking stronger efforts to fightclimate change, benefiting
China in terms of, you know,public health and, you know, and
of course, we can pursuecleaner energy, energy
(06:01):
efficiency.
So it's a winning strategy andthat was a simple but a very
strong message there.
So that was the beginning ofthe climate change there, fastly
forward.
So my experience, you know, as apolicy analyst, you do not just
focusing on the market-basedinstruments or one particular
piece of the policy.
There you started getting intoso okay, laws like legislation,
(06:25):
regulations, standards, thepolicy incentives there that you
started to deep dive intofurther at the regional level.
And so, because China is alarge country, you have very
well developed regions as wellas less developed regions there.
So, at the regional diversitythere, but also really looking
into different industries, youknow.
For instance, back then laterof course, I joined the climate
(06:48):
group and really, you know,becoming the greater China
director for the climate group,setting up this sort of platform
in China, totally, totallyfocused on climate change, and
that was a sort of the stepafter the World Resources
Institute there.
So in that context, there youstarted to learn, you know,
started even to look attechnology.
So now, of course, very recently, about a year and a half, a
(07:11):
little bit more than a year ago,I officially became a
non-executive director of theTianqi Lithium, which is one of
the largest, not only in Chinabut globally, lithium material.
You know technology companiesthere, although it's not simply
just say materials but also it'salready expanded to upstream.
For instance, it has assets inAustralia, it invested in Chile,
(07:35):
but also downstream it alsoinvests in smart too, on the EV
side as well.
But the core expertise of thecompany is more like in the
middle range, right processing,which is a chemical process.
Actually, the reason why thechairman of the company, the
leadership of the company,decided to reach out to me to
bring me on board actually toco-chair the ESG sustainability
(07:58):
subcommittee of the board, ofcourse to support the corporate
sustainability agenda, for aparticular reason because the
leadership has the vision levelof ambition and definitely would
like to continue its leadership.
So that's very important sortof foundation that for me you
know being part of the family,and really start to contribute
(08:21):
my expertise, you know, throughthis very powerful vehicle as a
non-executive board director tohelp facilitate and drive the
sustainability agenda.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, thank you.
I really want to dig into thatpoint that you ended up on about
the powerful position of thenon-executive director.
So I mean, firstly, perhaps youcould tell us something about
the corporate board structure inChina.
What is the position of anon-executive director in the
(08:56):
organizations that you've beeninvolved with, and what sort of
responsibilities do they have?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Sure, you know from the regulatory context.
So we have China.
This is a heavily regulatedsort of context there.
By the way, it's not just, it'snot the not-for-profit, you
know, non-governmental, whateverorganizations there.
So it's governed by the companylaw and the you know the equity
law.
So those are the twofundamental pieces of
(09:23):
legislation really governing thecapital market actually in
China and in terms of thebehavior of listed companies'
behavior there.
So for a board which is legallyrequired, that's a basic
structure actually for anypublic listed companies there.
You have to have that actually.
So usually, you know.
(09:45):
So you have shareholders.
Shareholders are the owners ofthe company, right?
So the board is that legallydesignated actually on behalf of
the older shareholders actuallyto govern, you know the company
and so you know, in terms ofnumber of people, tianng Lithium
has eight board members.
(10:05):
I think different companiesprobably vary a little bit, not
too many.
It depends on whatever theyneed, I guess actually, and the
structure of the board.
So for executive directors,they are, you know, for instance
, the owner of the companies.
You know, for instance, theowner of the companies.
They are the largestshareholders of the companies
(10:29):
and they are the CEO executive,you know, and the CEOs of the
companies.
So they have their sort of youknow, the own part of the
companies, certain shares of thecompanies there and the, you
know, from the CEO's perspective, that's his designated actually
to run the company.
(10:52):
And we have the seniormanagement team basically there.
And for non-executive membersthere with a very specific
reason because regulatorsrealize for any companies,
whatever the sectors are there,because the laws, regulations
require many, many things, it'sreally difficult actually for
all executive directors tofulfill that sort of duties.
So non-executive directorshipis designated to be more like a
(11:17):
specialized expertise right Tobring a small group specialized
expertise to join the board tosupport the company, to govern
the company.
Of course, if you look at themandatory, for instance,
auditing, accounting, auditing,that's because that's crucial,
that's key right.
And you know, if you look atthe capital market there, if you
(11:39):
look at the nomination,remuneration, things like that,
termination remuneration, thingslike that, so there are a few.
And also investment, you knowstrategic investment committee
subcommittee there as well.
So then, of course, coming downto our sort of space there, so
ESG sustainability, you knowit's not specified in terms of
(12:01):
you know each board actuallyneeds to have, you know, a
specialized person you know inthe accessibility and then you
need to create a subcommitteefor that particular purpose
there.
But it's sort of voluntary.
But the regular contest thereis said already because it's a
special expertise right.
(12:21):
So this is sort of nonexecutive directors, a group of
people who somehow arespecialized in their
professional field, theirexpertise actually are needed
for a board, for a companyactually to govern better, you
know, the company's business.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So we have a large number of complex and
interconnected systems, ofsystems happening here, where
you're talking about energy,food, water, infrastructure,
housing.
We can go on, but both in thewater context and also as an
independent director of ChangiLithium, you will be needing to
make decisions that balance lotsof different things that are
(13:02):
connected.
So a good example in mining isthe environmental challenges
that are associated with miningand, of course, the growing
demand for sustainable energysolutions, so lithium-free
batteries, for example.
Have you seen any good examplesof how boards are managing to
balance both these sort of twopotentially conflicting issues,
but also the wider systemseffects that boards are having?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
So Tianqi Lithium, you know this is sitting in a
very sort of interestingscenario.
On one side we're all pursuingclean, accelerated clean energy
transition, right, batteries,EVs, whatever.
So it provides products,solutions actually to fulfill
that sort of acceleratedtransition there.
(13:49):
But then there's the other side, meaning so we have to also
make sure that's delivered in asustainable manner.
That's pretty much the corenarrative within the board room
there, right?
And so then what do we do?
So there are different tiers Atthe bottom line.
There are laws and regulationsthere, right?
(14:10):
China has rather restrictivelaws and regulations on the
environmental side, on theecosystem side, on the water
side or whatever, even though wehave specific, you know, on the
mining sector, specific lawsand regulations there.
So from the complianceperspective there, sector
specific laws, regulations there.
So from the complianceperspective, there are very
specific laws, regulations,standards that the company in
that sector has to fulfill, hasto comply.
(14:31):
So that's the starting point.
Then P&G Lithium, you know, hasbeen a leadership company.
So the way the mindset of thecompany's top leadership board
is say okay, this is business,it's not just a compliance issue
, this is about a business there, right, and so I think that's a
very different sort ofincentive for the boards
(14:54):
actually to really look at theissues in a very different
manner.
So the narrative, theconversation in the boardroom is
not just like oh gosh, you know, we have laws, regulations, we
have to do this, we have to dothat, but rather very, really
proactively, positively lookingat the solutions there.
That's why the company hastaken many, many steps, for
instance on the mining side.
(15:14):
You know we call it greenmining.
That's already a mainstreamsolution.
The company has been doing that.
You know there are certain sortof standards.
You know voluntary, mandatorystandards or frameworks already
out there.
They started to reach out tothe sector globally actually to
advance the agenda as we aretalking about it here.
(15:36):
It's not like we all have laws,regulations covering everything
or standards coveringeverything.
They already it's not In many,many cases relatively new.
So you have this sort ofvacancies in terms of standards,
frameworks, you know whatever.
You know that sort of, you knowreally regulating, guiding the
actions there.
So the company would takereally initiatives to not only
(15:57):
to sell but to bring otherstogether of their industry
together.
You know even started toparticipate in developing
standards within the ISOframework, right.
So that's one thing that if youlook at the supply chain.
So, okay, guys, supply chain isanother thing.
Procurement, particular fromprocurement system, we need to
(16:20):
really make sure within thecompany, the procure, we have
really well developed a systemthere to make sure we have very
clear, defined criteria,framework to manage that and
that's embedded in there as well.
But in the meantime, another wayactually of looking at it, so
within the company, one majorthing actually I've been sort of
advocating, which I also feelrewarded in a way that actions
(16:43):
are taking.
So today within the company,the sustainability issue, you
know, climate issue, is not justto say, ok, this is one
particular department you aredesignated to lead, that it's
not, it's pretty much embeddedin everything.
So you know, the board member,non-executive board directors
actually we've been alreadydoing this twice already started
(17:06):
to reach out, ask the secretaryto the committee supporting the
board basically, so literallyusing designated time and
opportunity to get the financeCFO on board with us.
So we need to learn how thefinance system works actually
within the company, how thebudget is made right, how they
(17:26):
really follow through everything, and so you know it was on
separate cases there.
So we started to meet with, youknow, the C, whatever O's
actually of differentdepartments so far actually.
So CFO, the guy in charge ofthe supply chain procurement
besides sustainability, there'sa department designated for that
as well.
So CFO, the guy in charge ofthe supply chain procurement
(17:48):
Besides sustainability, there isa department designated for
that as well.
And the sales and safety.
And now there's a relatively newsort of a segment being created
within the company, not at thedepartment level but above that
but under the CEO is calledoversight and auditing.
So of course, auditing hasalways been an important part of
(18:09):
the governance actually for anycompany.
But rather than just you knowdifferent departments, including
you know auditing, but now it'scalled oversight and auditing
and created sort of lifted upfurther, above all the others,
so creating mechanisms.
So rather than relying onothers as internal sort of
(18:31):
auditing to find a problemthrough it you know and then
find the problems that tell you.
So yeah, this is wrong.
But rather the company itselfstarted to build up this
mechanism, governance mechanismsthere, make sure you know,
driving through the nodes withinthe company to do so.
So Tianqi Lithium today sets areally good example At least.
(18:54):
Actually their efforts havebeen recognized by the sector,
by the industry in China, tocertain extent globally.
So they've been in the globalresources, you know, mining and
whatever, because there aredifferent platforms actually
globally there as well, so theyall be part of it.
So from that perspective again,so the tone, you know it turns
(19:19):
to be more positive, rather thansay, gosh, this is their
liability, right, non-compliance, we have to do this and that,
by the way, actually I not onlychair the subcommittee of ESG
sustainability, I also sit onthe subcommittee of strategic
investment there as well, right,so for the company, just
(19:41):
imagining, you know, I'm not aninvestor or whatever stuff like
that, but somehow, you know,they somehow see my value.
So this is more like about youknow, to make sure, when the
look into potential investmentopportunities there, somehow
sustainability has to be animportant part of this strategy
(20:04):
there as well.
And from that perspective, Ijust give you a little bit of my
learning on that curve.
So, for instance, for anymerger, acquisition, investment
decision, whatever you had to doall the auditing right, legal,
accounting, financial, whateverstuff like that how do you make
sure this climate, thesustainability elements, is well
(20:27):
integrated, embedded in thatprocess is key.
That's what I learned basically, rather than say, oh, after
this investment decision is madealready, let's take a look at,
you know, think about carbonfootprints, you know, whatever,
that's going to be too late,right?
So that's a major step thecompany has also taken.
(20:48):
It's a decision made by theboard, so we move ahead to the
early stage.
I can give you this explanation.
My argument is that, so,because the company has
committed to, for instance, ofcourse, by 2050, carbon
neutrality, so I'm alignedcarbon emission reduction
targets there.
Right, it's not just aboutexisting, you have to look into
(21:09):
the future.
Right, that's about investment.
So when you decide what assetyou're going to invest in, you
have to take a look into thispotential carbon footprint there
as well.
So the argument is not hard tomake at all.
Right, it's more like okay, howdo you do it?
It's not case by case, ratherto embed that sort of thinking
(21:32):
and action into the system, intothe process, to the early stage
, as early as possible, right,for instance, there are cases of
probably not adequateinformation available, available
for data, whatever.
Yeah, there are alwayschallenges like that.
But this awareness, right, thissort of awareness of the issues
(21:53):
there needs to be there at thevery beginning.
That's another major stepactually, the board has taken as
well.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Glorious.
Thanks so much for that.
I think our listeners can hearthe unique position that you
occupy in this space withwearing all of these hats, and I
know we've mentioned thatyou're a member of the World
Economic Forum's community ofclimate experts as well, so you
bring a colossal breadth ofexperience to this conversation
(22:26):
and the conversations you havein the boardroom.
You've mentioned a littlealready about the unique
position that China is in here.
It's the world's highest carbonemitter, but also the world's
largest investor in renewableenergy.
It is a colossal and diversecountry.
(22:51):
As you've said, there are verypoor regions.
There are very highly developedregions.
The sectors that its companiesare active in are very, very
varied, so I wanted to ask youto reflect a little bit about
how you see China's uniqueopportunities and
(23:12):
responsibilities when it comesto climate change and carbon
emission.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
I could talk very big in a way, so I don't want to
really spend time on that.
We all know why China isimportant, as you mentioned
already, as a world currentlargest emitter, you know,
contributing largely, actuallyin large proportion, to the new
growth of emission every year.
So of course, sometimes we jokeabout it to say, ok, globally,
(23:41):
if you want to address theclimate change challenge, you
first need to somehow decodeChina's fossil fuel,
particularly the coal issuesthere, because without that
there's no way we're going toaddress that.
It might not be fair to Chinabut, as I said jokingly, that
seems to be the reality To alarge extent.
(24:02):
Basically, also, it tells theimportance actually to not only
the country itself it needs totake actions to address those
issues but, very, veryimportantly, other countries
need to work with China there aswell.
Now, in terms of the solution,this is a really difficult story
to tell.
I think that to be fair toChina, the country with all the
(24:24):
data evidence there already, Idon't have to repeat that it's
really fascinating to see howthe country has managed to drive
the clean energy transition sofar.
If you look at the progresswe've made, particularly around
renewable energy, energyefficiency, renewable energy,
batteries, evs, this is mobility, energy storage grids so there
(24:47):
are many, many shining spotsactually highlights China has
delivered so far.
So why would China be able todo so?
I think compared to even the US, many parts of European
countries there, so thepolitical system is, compared to
me speaking, is a little bitsimpler in a way in terms of
(25:10):
decision making.
Right, top leadership in thiscountry decides that this is the
thing, then that's pretty muchthe signpost actually guiding
the shift that has been the case.
So China and the Chineseleadership has embraced
something really bigger calledecological civilization, and
(25:35):
it's big Civilization, is reallya big term.
Ecological.
We're all part of nature, right, and so that's really big sort
of agenda vision mission therealready.
But the more important thing isthat you cannot just say you
know that, yeah, that's all youknow.
Ecological civilization.
So what do you mean?
How do you deliver that?
(25:55):
I think that's a majormilestone the country has made
so far.
So there were three thingsactually to say.
What is it in it actually ofthe ecological civilization
specifically, china wants todeliver Three things.
First, is ecological red linesGlobally we call it planetary
boundaries there, right, so thewhole country, particularly the
(26:17):
land, space, actually beenreally examined to the nitty
gritty details.
You know, look at, you know thefunctions, the biodiversity,
the health, whatever stuff likethat.
So that's one thing.
The second one is really aboutpricing nature, right, so we
take a lot, we take resourcesfrom nature.
It's not free, right, for along time we've been doing that.
(26:39):
So it's free.
Why we take?
We cut down trees, whatever, wejust pollute.
No, you cannot do that anymore.
So pricing, you know, from thepolicy perspective, that has
become a really powerful tool.
That relates to companies,meaning companies you know you
operate, meaning you have to payfor you know there's no free
riding anymore, right, and sothat's the second one.
(27:01):
The third one is about reallyequity issue.
We call it ecologicalcompensation.
This is a particular to addressupstream, downstream, sort of
you know differences there.
As I said, the coastal areas inChina, they sit at the very
downstream of the majorwatersheds, riversheds, very
well developed already, right,but then going upward, actually,
(27:24):
if you look at the Western,central, western part of the
country, in many cases they'rereally lagging behind and now,
with the rich, the wealth intheir hands, already developed a
region.
Say, ok, laws, regulations,said the environmental
protection quality I do not likepollution anymore.
Do not do chemical industry,whatever polluting industries
upstream, you know, upstreamdecision makers say wait a
(27:48):
second, what do I do?
How do I survive?
What's my livelihood there?
Right?
So this sort of compensationmechanism, those are the three
things actually, three majorpillars that have been deployed,
you know, continue to improveactually in this part of the
world already.
That's really important,foundational piece of, you know,
sort of China's decision totransform its economy.
(28:12):
So, of course, on one side, ofcourse we need to address the
coal issue and the fossil fuelissues.
There China has been doing so,but the level of sophistication
has been continuous to increase,you know progress, like you
know Rachel mentioned beforeabout your nature, right, we
have to take into the issue in avery more sophisticated manner,
(28:33):
right, and that requirespolicymakers make really the
right decisions or effectivedecisions actually to
incentivize the transitiontowards we'll call it a positive
tipping points.
Actually, at this moment it'snot an easy task at all.
Now, the complicated issue,particularly coming down to
(28:54):
emissions part, is the supplychain.
Supply chain, as we allrecognize and particularly talk
about within the web community.
We call it scope three, right,the thing is that China occupies
a large part of the industrialvalue chain.
If you look at the UN, unido,industrial Development
Organization, unido, I thinkthat they have this list look at
(29:17):
the different industries.
They categorize altogether 666industries globally.
China is the only country thathas all of them.
So China is put in a positionto really somehow, like it or
not, to lead the supply chaintransformation.
(29:38):
And now globally, of coursewe're all looking into, you know
, particular scope three,because that occupies a big
chunk of the emissions there.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I completely agree.
I think it was Antonio Guterreswho stole a film title and said
we need to do everythingeverywhere all at once.
It is about that completelyholistic thing.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah, and it's almost impossible.
That's the conclusion.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Nothing's ever perfect, but we can do what we
can do.
So what advice would you giveto peers people who are earlier
on their journey than you inthis space?
What advice would you give topeers that are trying to deliver
climate action on the boardroom?
What sort of that one thingyou'd like to pass on from all
your experience and knowledge?
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I don't think I have one simple suggestion, whatever
stuff like that.
As I said, in my particularcase, the reason I was given
this opportunity because of theleadership of the company.
Already, right, when you havethat sort of foundation, the DNA
, the culture in it, that's thebeginning, that's a good
(30:44):
beginning point actually.
So when I was given this chance, I decided to embrace it, right
.
So that's sort of the journeyI'm on now, basically.
So I went through the processand really, lucky enough,
because of the good foundation,the DNA, the culture, the
leadership awareness, the desire, the aspiration of the
(31:04):
leadership of the company, so Ido not have much problem in
terms of really speak veryopenly within the board, by the
way, actually.
So out of the eight boardmembers, four are women, board
members for women.
So now, actually it's now justa couple of months ago the
chairman is now the daughter.
So yeah, she was born in the1980s.
(31:28):
This is the younger generation,educated overseas, whatever.
So the chair of the board nowis a woman.
Then we have three othernon-executive directors a woman
there as well.
So this is really sort of theycreated this culture within this
eight people, right, thisculture element.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
That's wonderful to hear.
Absolutely, the learning andthe cultural sensitivity have
come across as really important.
Thank you, sadly, we're at time.
Thank you so much, shang-wenWu're at time.
Thank you so much, chang-wu,for your time and for sharing so
much of your expertise with ustoday.
It's been an absolute pleasurespeaking with you.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It really has.
Thanks so much, Chang-Wu.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
My pleasure, thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
The Climate Governance Initiative is a
global non-profit networkreaching more than 100,000 board
directors.
Most of the world's greenhousegas emissions come from the
private sector, so the centralquestion the initiative asks is
Thank you, and our work draws onthe principles for effective
climate governance set out bythe World Economic Forum.
If you want to know more,there's a link in the show notes
(32:43):
where all our content isavailable for free and where you
can find your local chapter.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
This podcast was recorded in July 2024.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
In our next episode, we'll be talking to Tina
Mavracki.
Tina is a brilliantlyexperienced board director and
strategic advisor with acolossal executive career in the
finance sector and in the realeconomy, working in energy and
metals and minerals, and hasbeen driving climate governance
in all of her organizations.
We're really looking forward totalking to Tina.
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