July 21, 2025 • 29 mins
This is a reproduction of the Caring Greatly Podcast. The 100th episode and the interviewer Liz Boehm.
Dr. Mel Herbert, emergency physician, educator and medical consultant for the hit TV drama "The Pit," shares how the show portrays the realities of emergency medicine and healthcare's biggest challenges. The conversation reveals how healthcare professionals are pushing for system-wide change, especially in addressing clinician mental health needs.
• Emergency departments serve as society's 24/7 safety net but are facing unprecedented staffing and capacity challenges
• Wait times at prestigious hospitals now routinely reach 12-24 hours due to system-wide issues and patient boarding
• "The Pit" accurately portrays healthcare challenges including workplace violence, administrative pressures, and resource constraints
• Clinicians carry an "emotional backpack" of trauma from witnessing death and suffering without adequate mental health support
• Dr. Herbert advocates for mandatory mental health support for all healthcare workers to eliminate stigma
• Emergency medicine consistently ranks highest in burnout and suicide rates among medical specialties
• The profit-driven healthcare system contributes to systemic problems that harm both patients and providers
• The show helps patients and families understand what really happens in emergency departments
• Media portrayal of healthcare challenges can drive public understanding and potentially influence policy change
Watch "The Pit" to support continued storytelling about healthcare's frontline workers and the challenges they face.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey party people.
I'm not getting these out asoften as I'd like because things
are really busy at the MRAPuniverse and at the PIT universe
, but I was very fortunate to beinterviewed by Liz Baum, who is
part of the Karen Greatlypodcast.
It was their 100th episode.
They really focus on healthcare, health, and they really wanted
to get Joe Sax and I to talkabout the PIT, but unfortunately
Joe is so busy at this time ofyear just so incredibly busy he
(00:24):
couldn't do it.
So I took the reins on this oneand I hope you enjoy it.
I think it's a really importantmessage and I really really
thank them for having me come onthe show.
This is what I would call amildly edited version of that
show and there are links to itin the show notes.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Welcome to the Caring Greatly podcast.
Welcome to the Caring Greatlypodcast podcast for leaders who
seek to transform healthcarewith humanity.
Welcome to a very specialmilestone for the Caring Greatly
podcast it's our 100th episode.
We started Caring Greatly in2019, before everything we knew
in healthcare and beyond wasturned upside down.
Our mission, then and now, isto be a destination where
(01:04):
healthcare leaders, advocatesand other listeners can be
inspired to innovate and driveindustry transformation.
The Caring Greatly podcast is asafe space for people to share
their perspectives abouthealthcare and connect to
human-centered stories thatspark big ideas, reveal
potential solutions and providehope for a safer and brighter
future of caring.
(01:24):
Our North Star and thefoundational belief for the
podcast is that all care teammembers deserve to feel safe and
be safe at work.
Healthcare worker safety mustbe a top priority.
The resilience of ourhealthcare system depends on it.
Patients and their loved onesdepend on it and, most of all,
the people who dedicate theirlives to healing others deserve
(01:46):
nothing less.
All 100 episodes of the CaringGreatly podcast are carefully
created to bring more visibilityto the importance of care team
safety and well-being At theHeart of Safety Coalition.
Our research shows that careteam safety rests on three
pillars psychological andemotional safety, dignity and
inclusion, and physical safety.
The three pillars of care teamsafety are essential to
(02:08):
advancing better healing andworking environments in
healthcare.
So for our special 100thepisode of Caring Greatly, we
invited Dr Mel Herbert, anemergency physician, educator
and medical consultant andwriter for the hit TV drama the
Pit.
Why?
Because the Pit'shuman-centered stories and
heart-hitting visuals areshining the spotlight on the
hard truths and the very realchallenges that care team
(02:30):
members face hour by hour,whether that's resource
constraints, moral dilemmas,unimaginable losses or workplace
violence, and it showcases theincredible humanity they bring
to each other and to theirpatients.
It also shows the weight of theresponsibilities care team
members carry and the toll ittakes on them psychologically,
emotionally and physically.
(02:51):
Dr Mel Herbert is aninternationally recognized
entrepreneurial pioneer,philanthropist, speaker and an
award-winning educator inemergency medicine.
Australia-born and trained inthe United States and Australia,
mel founded MRAP EmergencyMedicine Reviews and
Perspectives, providing qualityand engaging educational content
(03:13):
for emergency care providersfor the past more than 20 years.
Mel's initiatives are foundedon beliefs that emergency care
and emergency medicine educationshould be accessible to all.
This paved the way for theestablishment of his nonprofit
initiative called MRAPGO, whichhelps bring emergency medical
education to underservedcommunities around the globe.
(03:33):
He currently resides in SantaBarbara and is a professor of
emergency medicine at the UCLASchool of Medicine.
Dr Mel Herbert is a leader whocares greatly, and all of those
(04:01):
things.
You've had a storied career, buttoday we're going to focus in
on the show the Pit, whichdepicts a single shift in a
fictional Pittsburgh emergencydepartment, with each episode of
the show representing an hourin the ED.
Now the story is told largelythrough the perspective of the
show's physicians, who spanlevels of training and
experience from med student tosenior attending.
It's just an incredible castand while there's plenty of
(04:25):
medical action, there's also astrong focus on what the
clinicians experience as they goabout their work.
Now you're a consultant andwriter for the show.
As I understand it, you're nowin the writing room for season
two.
What's it like to work on aproject that is centering the
very real challenges faced byhealthcare professionals, and
particularly ED professionals?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
It's an honor it's at this part of my career to be
able to do this work with theimpact that it has is really
stunning.
I never would have thought thatI could be doing this and I
have to shout out to Joe Sachs,who is the lead medical writer.
He was on EIA.
He was my attending back in theday at UCLA 30 plus years ago
(05:08):
and he brought me onto the showas a consultant last year where
we were just sort of run bycases and talk about stuff.
And then this year he said likecan you help me come into the
writer's room?
But this show has been soimpactful.
You know it became Max's numberone show.
It's one of the most popularshows throughout the world.
It's got rave reviews both fromthe medical community and the
(05:31):
lay community and we've had somany docs and nurses and people
who work in healthcare saying Ifeel seen.
For the first time I can sitwith my husband and say this is
what I do on shift and this isreal, and they're having
conversations about that andkids are talking to their moms
and dads and like I had no ideawhat you did at work and that's
(05:52):
why it's so impactful, that'swhy it's so important to me.
It's not just the docs andnurses, but it's the family
members and it's also just sortof people in general
understanding what goes on in anemergency department and why
you might have to be delayedbecause there's a lot of stuff
going on back there andhopefully it will raise people's
awareness about workplaceviolence.
(06:13):
And you can't do that to thesedocs and nurses.
They're on the edge and they'rethe safety net.
So all of these stories comingtogether and talking about all
these things, it's just.
It's so important and I'm justso proud to be part of it out in
(06:48):
the trauma wing of the ED.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It's just incredible, but you're mentioning this
importance of clinicians beingseen and importance of lay
people understanding.
What does that bring?
What is it you're hoping willcome from that understanding?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I hope that people first of all will come to
understand that the ImmunizationDepartment really is the last
line of defense againstaccidents and injuries and
illness and it's there 24-7, 365.
And I think we take it forgranted that if I get sick, if
my kid gets sick or if I get hitby a car, that there'll be
(07:20):
somebody there to look after me.
That is absolutely not true inmost of the world that there'll
be somebody there to look afterme.
That is absolutely not true inmost of the world.
In most of the world you're onyour own.
You're hoping for a stranger topick you up and throw you in
the back of a car if they haveone and to be dropped off at a
hospital where there may or maynot be emergency medicine
probably not emergency medicineand we in the West just take it
so for granted that this safetynet will always be there.
(07:43):
But it might not always bethere.
It really is under stress for alot of financial reasons, for a
lot of psych reasons, because wehad about 20% of the nurses
leave the profession duringCOVID or after COVID.
That's put huge stresses on thehospitals.
The wait times are enormous.
We have to find solutions tothis because the emergency
(08:04):
departments, while they're stillthere, many of them have become
so dysfunctional that peoplehave to wait for 12, 14, 24
hours.
When I was training at UCI as aresident, if we had a patient
wait for an hour or two, thatwas a big deal at some of these
big centers.
12 to 24 hours is routine at themost prestigious hospital Not
(08:25):
the county hospitals, but themost prestigious hospitals
because all of the patients arewaiting downstairs and there's
simply nowhere to put them.
And you see some of that in thepit.
You see these overcrowdedwaiting rooms and you see that
people are getting agitated,which I understand.
But if people can understand,the system is broken, not the
docs, the nurses.
(08:46):
They're not back there.
You know smoking cigarettes andpounding beers.
They're going as fast as theycan.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, as fast as they can.
And one of the things thatstruck me is I suppose I should
potentially give a spoiler alerthere and this is a season one
spoiler alert for those who arelistening you know there is a
moment where the charge nurse,dana who's just incredible and
managing, you know it makes it.
The show makes it clear that herability to manage what is
(09:13):
otherwise chaotic in the ED isjust is extraordinary.
She does take a moment to stepoutside and have a cigarette and
gets attacked in that moment inan example of workplace
violence which is just horrific.
And the agitated patient whohas been waiting a long time
with a what appears we don'tknow fully what his condition is
(09:35):
, but it appears to be not lifethreateningreatening he seems to
be angry that she's pausing totake a break, a momentary break,
to just not be right in thatchaotic moment and finds that
unacceptable, which one of thethings I love on the show is it
(09:56):
does allow.
Even as the actors are workingthrough scenarios in which the
level of intensity is huge, theyalso have very human moments,
and the idea that a patientwould be angry that a nurse in a
12-hour shift takes a momentarybreak, I think is appalling and
I really appreciate the show'sportrayal of the human side of
(10:19):
these characters and I reallyappreciate the show's portrayal
of the human side of thesecharacters yeah, that idea that
these are superheroes.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
But they are not superhuman.
They are human.
They need to take breaks.
Imagine if you're flying in a747 across the Atlantic and the
captain is really tired becauseshe's been doing this shift for
12 hours, but there's stillanother four hours to go.
There's a reason why inprofessions like that, it's like
there's mandatory breaks.
No, you go away now.
(10:44):
You have a break.
You have the co-pilot takeoverbecause the stakes are so high.
You can't be so tired thatyou'll make a mistake.
We don't have that in emergencymedicine and yet it's even more
stressful.
It's a constant flow of stressand tasks switching.
And look at this EKG, look atthis x-ray, look at this new
patient over here.
We've got a trauma coming.
It's really a huge cognitiveburden and we need to have these
(11:09):
docs and nurses have a safeplace and time to go and take a
break or you'll make mistakes.
Because this is this hugecognitive burden and it should
be sort of a mandatory part ofemergency medicine.
But that means that you need tohave people who are able to
cover and right now we justdon't have enough people.
There's not enough nurses,there's not enough docs, there's
(11:32):
not enough support, so it'sreally quite a dangerous thing,
but certainly people need tounderstand.
If you see a doctor or nurse inthe parking lot taking a break,
leave them alone.
They need a moment.
You have no idea what just wenton inside.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yes, yes and and yeah , and that idea that you alluded
to earlier that the anger thatthey're experiencing or
frustration with the wait times,while understandable given the
circumstances, is misdirectedwhen it's directed at the
clinicians, right.
I think the show also does anice job with the chief medical
(12:10):
officer coming down with heradministrative priorities, which
are also in many waysunderstandable, and I know a lot
of leaders in healthcaresystems who are trying to do
amazing things with a lot ofcompassion.
But there can be a disconnect,place right either to treatment
(12:42):
and out, or treatment orstabilization and up into the
system are staying there fordays and days and that adds to
the burden.
And that's part of where thatshortage you talked about really
plays in and plays out morestrongly in the ED than perhaps
in other areas in and plays outmore strongly in the ED than
perhaps in other areas.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, it becomes the dumping ground for a system
that's broken.
So the ERs are always asked tojust deal with it.
So we've got 60 patients thathave beds upstairs.
You just look after themdownstairs.
In most hospitals, in moststates, there's nursing ratios.
You can't have 12 patients whenyou're on the med-surg floor as
a nurse, but you can in theemergency department.
(13:23):
So the default is just leavethem in the emergency department
where they're alreadyoverwhelmed, where they've got
new patients coming, and that isnot good care.
That is actually terrible care.
And I should say something aboutGloria, who is the medical
administrator in the show.
I know lots of medicaladministrators and everybody's
trying to help.
Everybody's trying to do theirpart.
(13:44):
People always ask what's one ofthe most unrealistic things
about the show.
I'm like.
Well, one of my top threeunrealistic things is that the
medical administrators veryrarely come down.
Only the cream of the crop comedown.
Only those that are veryconfident come to the emergency
department and see what's goingon.
I wish administrators wouldcome down more often and see
what's going on, like she doesin the show.
I wish the people that ran thehealthcare systems would come
(14:07):
and volunteer and hang out for afew days.
In other industries the C-suiteare made to go and work the
front desk, I think it'sEnterprise Rent-A-Car is one of
those where the C-suite is likeyou need to come and see what it
looks like interfacing with thepublic, listen to their
complaints so that when you goback to your ivory tower you'll
(14:28):
have some actual experience.
I'd like to see more of that.
I'd like to see people in power, and again, not just the
hospital administrators, but thepeople that are buying hospital
systems and trying to flip themfor profit.
It's like come down and seewhat that looks like, see what
that really means.
I do not believe thathealthcare should be a
for-profit industry.
I'm a bit of a socialist whogrew up in Australia in a
(14:50):
nationalised healthcare system.
I just think that there aresome things that should not be
for profit.
That profit should be put backinto the system so that we can
give better care.
But that's going to be a hardthing to convince people of
until they go down and they seewhat it looks like.
What does it look like when youhave an understaffed,
overwhelmed system?
And that's what the show isallowing us to show the general
(15:14):
public.
This is what it looks like, andit could get worse if we don't
fix it.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
And it could get worse if we don't fix it.
Yeah, I want to pull up alittle bit, because one of the
reasons I was so struck by theshow is that at the Heart of
Safety Coalition, we lookexclusively at care team member
safety and we think of it asbeing comprised of three pillars
psychological and emotionalsafety.
You've already talked aboutcognitive load, dignity and
(15:41):
inclusion, which is about, youknow, just treatment and
fairness.
Physical safety, whichincludesle with workplace
violence.
We see substance use disorder,we see bullying,
(16:02):
under-resourcing, thatadministrative pressure you
talked about from Gloria, and wealso see the very real impact
on healthcare team members ofsocial issues, including the
fentanyl crisis, socialdeterminants of health, gun
violence, situations wherefamily members' choices don't
align with evidence-basedpractice, and those ones are
particularly painful, that moralinjury potential, and it's a
(16:25):
lot.
So you are an emergencymedicine physician.
How well is this representingwhat it feels like to be a
healthcare professional rightnow?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So I'm going to hand it to Joe again, the lead
medical writer.
There's actually, I think,seven ER docs on the show now,
but Joe is the lead writer andhe has worked in emergency
departments, trauma centers inLA for over 35 years and he
brought all of that knowledgeand that experience to the show.
And then we talk a lot about itand I talk to our subscribers
(17:00):
across the country about thestresses that they're having and
everybody's feeling the samething, all of the things that
you just outlined.
Everybody is feeling to agreater or lesser degree.
Some it's overwhelming, some toa little lesser degree, but
those stresses they're all therethe workplace violence, the
moral injury, the just sort offeeling completely overwhelmed
(17:23):
and the amount of psychologicaldamage and substance abuse.
And unfortunately, every timethere's a study of who is the
most burnt out in the house ofmedicine and all of medicine is
under stress.
But every single time there's astudy, emergency medicine is on
top and if we look atself-injury, emergency
physicians die by their own handat astounding rates compared to
(17:47):
the rest of the population.
So I think the show just does agood job of showing like this
is real, this isn't made up forHollywood.
This is a Hollywoodrepresentation of what's
actually happening in the realworld, to real people.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And I know the show focuses on the ED and you are an
ED physician, and I presumemany of the consulting if not
all of the consulting physiciansare ED focused.
I'm curious if you have aperspective, though, about the
degree to which these areuniversal challenges for
healthcare professionals.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, I talked to a lot of docs in a lot of
different fields and it is notunique to emergency medicine.
It is throughout the house ofmedicine.
A lot of the pressuresfinancial time, moral injury
occur through all thespecialties.
And one of the things that isstunning and when you look at
those studies that look atburnout is that every single
profession in medicine has somedegree of burnout.
(18:40):
Emergency medicine might benumber one, but even people like
family medicine, where youthink like that should be a much
less stressful job, no, they'resuffering.
And I talked to my familypractice doc, left medicine and
started a totally different typeof medicine because she's like
I spend half of my time, atleast half of my time fighting
with insurance companies to justgo and give my patients care
(19:02):
and after 15 years I can't takeit anymore.
So this is throughout the Houseof Medicine.
We have a broken system.
We have a system that is brokenon so many levels, but a big
part of it is that we don'tunderstand that this should be a
right and we should be takingthe profit motive out of
medicine.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I think it starts there.
Let's dig into that right,because I want to talk about a
slightly different right.
I know recently on your podcastDirty White Coat, you had Dr
Stephanie Simmons, the ChiefMedical Officer of the Dr Lorna
Breen Heroes Foundation, andthat is a group that is focused
on and making just incrediblestrides in trying to remove the
(19:43):
cultural and systemic barriersto access to mental health care
for clinicians.
Not with the idea that we don'tneed to fix these structural
things that you're talking about.
We absolutely do, and both inthe meantime and even in a more
functional system, there's achallenge with clinicians
(20:04):
getting the help that they need,and we see Dr Rabi have, during
a just horrific experience onthe show, have a mental
breakdown, which is completelyunderstandable, and then you see
him distressed, feeling notlike he needs help but like he
has failed.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat mental health concern and
(20:26):
what it means for clinicians?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, I think we talked about this idea that when
you're an ER doc, you have thisbackpack and you go in and you
try to resuscitate a child andthey die and you take that
terrible emotion and thatfeeling of just failure and you
throw all that into yourbackpack.
And then you go into the nextroom and there's a young woman
(20:51):
who's dying of cancer and it'sjust not fair and she's got two
kids and she ends up dying andyou take all that emotion and
you've got to go see the nextpatient.
So you throw it in yourbackpack and over time the
backpack is so full of all ofthese undealt with moral
injuries that you tip over.
And that happens to so manyclinicians.
It happened to me After 25years.
(21:13):
My backpack filled up and Itipped over.
I was having flashbacks of allof the dead patients that I'd
looked after the little kids,the elderly and I'd never dealt
with it and I hadn't dealt withit with my career, because we're
sort of told that's weakness.
You shouldn't get help for yourdepression, for your PTSD, for
your anxiety.
We're doctors.
(21:36):
We should be able to just suckit up and go, and it's such a
terrible message that we've had.
We also have a system that saysyou have to disclose all that,
like you did something wrong.
Oh, you got help for yourmental health.
It should be the other way.
You didn't.
That's a problem and we need tode-stigmatize that because
everybody has it.
Every single doc I talk to andI talk to a lot of clinicians
every single one has a backpackthat is full of stuff that they
(21:58):
need to deal with.
And I've talked a lot recentlyabout the fact that I think
every doc and nurse that worksin these settings should have
mandated mental health care.
And if you're doing well, fine,it's a shorter episode, it's a
little less counseling, whateverit is, but everybody should get
it so the stigma goes away.
We should be just destroying thestigma.
(22:19):
This is not normal.
You cannot go to war and watchpeople die or kill people and
come out of that without PTSD.
You just can't, because you'rea human.
Only robots can do that.
But that's what we're askingemergency clinicians and
clinicians in many specialtiesto do here go to war for us, but
we're not actually going tolook after you.
You're just going to have todeal with it yourself, and I
(22:40):
just think that's wrong.
It should be part of medicalpractice, nursing practices that
every single person has routinemental health care because they
need it.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, and the good news is so.
We're doing some research incollaboration with the Dr Lorna
Brin-Harris Foundation, askingclinicians about their barriers
to mental health access, andI've been reading through the
open-ended responses to whatsolutions might be, and I was
surprised at the number ofpeople who said make this
mandatory, right.
Like I've not heard a lot ofpeople say I want one more
mandated thing on my, my plate.
(23:11):
This is clearly a fundamentallydifferent kind of thing because,
as the show depicts and as yousay, in in real life, the kinds
of things that emergencyclinicians and clinicians in
other parts of medicine arefacing with the death, the loss,
the dying Clinicians andclinicians in other parts of
(23:36):
medicine are facing with thedeath, the loss, the dying, the
inequities, the lack of fairness, the overburdening is not
something First of all, it'ssomething we should strive to
eliminate as much as possiblefor what's structurally there.
But support with absolutely noquestions, with absolutely no
questions and, as you said,almost a question of why
wouldn't?
As a patient, I would certainlyprefer that my clinicians are
getting the mental health carethat they need, and I think one
of the things I love about theshow is the possibility that
(23:59):
people will watch it and say ofcourse, and be part of rallying
with the Dr Lauren Breen HeroesFoundation and others rallying
to say clinical access to mentalhealth care for health care
professionals is essential.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, there can't be any spoilers for season two, but
this is some of the stuff thatwe want to continue telling that
story, and I'm a littledisappointed that other people
have decided that getting mentalhealth care for everybody is a
good idea.
I thought it was mine, Ithought it was all mine, I
thought it was the only one, andit turns out I'm not the only
one, and that makes me soheartened to hear that there are
(24:37):
clinicians who understand yeah,this is the way to go and it
shouldn't be on your own time,your expense.
This should just be part of thejob.
It should be paid for for theclinician and for the therapist
or whoever it is, and thereshould be time set aside for
that.
So it should be a real thing,not like an unfunded mandate,
which we are so fond of herewhen it comes to healthcare.
(24:58):
There should be a fundedmandate that everybody can be
involved.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
In terms of both finance and time, as you said,
and fortunately, again, that'swhat we see in the comments and
hopefully elevating those voiceswill help make that a reality.
So I sort of put the words inyour mouth around that being an
outcome.
But what else do you hopeeither lay audiences or
leadership audiences orprofessional audiences will take
(25:23):
away from watching the show?
What kind of change are youhoping to inspire?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Well, the most important thing is to show the
humanism of the docs and nurses.
I think this show has givenpeople a window into what that
actually looks like for thefirst time.
To hear docs say my familyreally had no idea what I do.
And now they sit with me as wewatch the show and we pause and
(25:49):
they're like is that true, isthat thing, does that happen?
And you're saying yes, and it'slike dad, do you do this for
eight hours, 12 hours at a time,like, yes, that's what I do.
So I think that's the mostimportant thing, because from
that comes compassion and fromthat comes to action.
Compassion and from that comesto action.
I just heard Jon Stewart talkingabout his show, about how, as a
(26:10):
comedian, your job is to makepeople laugh, but it's also to
make them think.
But don't think, as a comedian,that just making people laugh
about really difficult things inthe world actually fixes those
things.
And this is the same thing.
You actually have to go out andnow do something about it.
So I think what this showallows is people this window
into here's what's going on.
(26:30):
These are humans.
Now let's do something about it.
Just watching the show doesn'tfix anything except educate you.
But now what are we going to dowith that education?
So I'm I'm hoping that thereare people in power and that
will help make change People whoare hospital administrators,
people who are family members ofthe docs and the nurses that
(26:52):
are working in these situationsto start putting pressure on
their congressmen and to changethe way things are done.
If this show can do a littlebit of that, then it is
absolutely worthwhile.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Well, I think it is incredibly worthwhile and I do
think that storytelling andperspective taking and all of
those things that create thatconnection and compassion are
the foundation of change.
So thank you for being part ofthat.
I know you're surrounded byalso an extraordinary team of
other people that are bringingthis to life, but thank you for
bringing medical realism but,more importantly, for bringing
(27:29):
human realism to a medium thatallows people an inside look at
what it's really like and whatwe need to change in healthcare.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
And thank you for the work that you're doing.
It's so important.
We, hopefully, are on theprecipice of helping fix one
area of mental health, butmental health is a thing that we
all need to be talking about inall of our jobs, in all of our
lives.
There's been a stigma aroundthis for a few thousand years.
It's time to get rid of this.
We need to be able to talkabout this in the open, all of
(28:04):
us and maybe this can start thatconversation, because here are
the people who are supposed tobe like the superheroes.
They're not coping.
You know why?
Because we're human.
Let's have the discussionsabout what it means to be human.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, being human is central to all of this.
Well, and any last thoughts youwant to share before we wrap up
.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
No, I just just thank you for the work you're doing,
and there's so many groups herethat are doing this.
It's just such a pleasure to beable to be part of the show.
I hope it goes for many seasons.
We have so many stories to tell, so make sure you watch the
show, because that's the wayit'll stay up, watch the show,
tell your friends to watch theshow and hopefully we can have
at least a number of moreseasons where we can tell this,
(28:46):
because it's very complicated.
We've only just scratched thesurface.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yes, and I hope it continues as well.
I personally am a big fan and Ithink storytelling is such an
important part, as I said, ofdriving change.
So thank you, mel, for joiningus today and thank you for the
work you're doing.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
If you enjoyed this episode of the Caring Greatly
podcast, please subscribe andrate us on Apple or Thank you
and do not necessarily reflectthose of Stryker.
Participants have not beencompensated and are selected
(29:28):
solely based on their expertise,regardless of whether they have
any relationship with Stryker.
I am your host, Liz Bohm,Executive Strategist of the
Heart of Safety Coalition,brought to you by Stryker.
Thank you for caring greatly.
Hey party people.
I'm not getting these out asoften as I'd like because things
are really busy at the MRAPuniverse and at the PIT universe
, but I was very fortunate to beinterviewed by Liz Baum, who is
part of the Karen Greatlypodcast.
It was their 100th episode.
They really focus on healthcare, health, and they really wanted
to get Joe Sax and I to talkabout the PIT, but unfortunately
Joe is so busy at this time ofyear just so incredibly busy he
(00:24):
couldn't do it.
So I took the reins on this oneand I hope you enjoy it.
I think it's a really importantmessage and I really really
thank them for having me come onthe show.
This is what I would call amildly edited version of that
show and there are links to itin the show notes.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Welcome to the Caring Greatly podcast.
Welcome to the Caring Greatlypodcast podcast for leaders who
seek to transform healthcarewith humanity.
Welcome to a very specialmilestone for the Caring Greatly
podcast it's our 100th episode.
We started Caring Greatly in2019, before everything we knew
in healthcare and beyond wasturned upside down.
Our mission, then and now, isto be a destination where
(01:04):
healthcare leaders, advocatesand other listeners can be
inspired to innovate and driveindustry transformation.
The Caring Greatly podcast is asafe space for people to share
their perspectives abouthealthcare and connect to
human-centered stories thatspark big ideas, reveal
potential solutions and providehope for a safer and brighter
future of caring.
(01:24):
Our North Star and thefoundational belief for the
podcast is that all care teammembers deserve to feel safe and
be safe at work.
Healthcare worker safety mustbe a top priority.
The resilience of ourhealthcare system depends on it.
Patients and their loved onesdepend on it and, most of all,
the people who dedicate theirlives to healing others deserve
(01:46):
nothing less.
All 100 episodes of the CaringGreatly podcast are carefully
created to bring more visibilityto the importance of care team
safety and well-being At theHeart of Safety Coalition.
Our research shows that careteam safety rests on three
pillars psychological andemotional safety, dignity and
inclusion, and physical safety.
The three pillars of care teamsafety are essential to
(02:08):
advancing better healing andworking environments in
healthcare.
So for our special 100thepisode of Caring Greatly, we
invited Dr Mel Herbert, anemergency physician, educator
and medical consultant andwriter for the hit TV drama the
Pit.
Why?
Because the Pit'shuman-centered stories and
heart-hitting visuals areshining the spotlight on the
hard truths and the very realchallenges that care team
(02:30):
members face hour by hour,whether that's resource
constraints, moral dilemmas,unimaginable losses or workplace
violence, and it showcases theincredible humanity they bring
to each other and to theirpatients.
It also shows the weight of theresponsibilities care team
members carry and the toll ittakes on them psychologically,
emotionally and physically.
(02:51):
Dr Mel Herbert is aninternationally recognized
entrepreneurial pioneer,philanthropist, speaker and an
award-winning educator inemergency medicine.
Australia-born and trained inthe United States and Australia,
mel founded MRAP EmergencyMedicine Reviews and
Perspectives, providing qualityand engaging educational content
(03:13):
for emergency care providersfor the past more than 20 years.
Mel's initiatives are foundedon beliefs that emergency care
and emergency medicine educationshould be accessible to all.
This paved the way for theestablishment of his nonprofit
initiative called MRAPGO, whichhelps bring emergency medical
education to underservedcommunities around the globe.
(03:33):
He currently resides in SantaBarbara and is a professor of
emergency medicine at the UCLASchool of Medicine.
Dr Mel Herbert is a leader whocares greatly, and all of those
(04:01):
things.
You've had a storied career, buttoday we're going to focus in
on the show the Pit, whichdepicts a single shift in a
fictional Pittsburgh emergencydepartment, with each episode of
the show representing an hourin the ED.
Now the story is told largelythrough the perspective of the
show's physicians, who spanlevels of training and
experience from med student tosenior attending.
It's just an incredible castand while there's plenty of
(04:25):
medical action, there's also astrong focus on what the
clinicians experience as they goabout their work.
Now you're a consultant andwriter for the show.
As I understand it, you're nowin the writing room for season
two.
What's it like to work on aproject that is centering the
very real challenges faced byhealthcare professionals, and
particularly ED professionals?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
It's an honor it's at this part of my career to be
able to do this work with theimpact that it has is really
stunning.
I never would have thought thatI could be doing this and I
have to shout out to Joe Sachs,who is the lead medical writer.
He was on EIA.
He was my attending back in theday at UCLA 30 plus years ago
(05:08):
and he brought me onto the showas a consultant last year where
we were just sort of run bycases and talk about stuff.
And then this year he said likecan you help me come into the
writer's room?
But this show has been soimpactful.
You know it became Max's numberone show.
It's one of the most popularshows throughout the world.
It's got rave reviews both fromthe medical community and the
(05:31):
lay community and we've had somany docs and nurses and people
who work in healthcare saying Ifeel seen.
For the first time I can sitwith my husband and say this is
what I do on shift and this isreal, and they're having
conversations about that andkids are talking to their moms
and dads and like I had no ideawhat you did at work and that's
(05:52):
why it's so impactful, that'swhy it's so important to me.
It's not just the docs andnurses, but it's the family
members and it's also just sortof people in general
understanding what goes on in anemergency department and why
you might have to be delayedbecause there's a lot of stuff
going on back there andhopefully it will raise people's
awareness about workplaceviolence.
(06:13):
And you can't do that to thesedocs and nurses.
They're on the edge and they'rethe safety net.
So all of these stories comingtogether and talking about all
these things, it's just.
It's so important and I'm justso proud to be part of it out in
(06:48):
the trauma wing of the ED.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It's just incredible, but you're mentioning this
importance of clinicians beingseen and importance of lay
people understanding.
What does that bring?
What is it you're hoping willcome from that understanding?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I hope that people first of all will come to
understand that the ImmunizationDepartment really is the last
line of defense againstaccidents and injuries and
illness and it's there 24-7, 365.
And I think we take it forgranted that if I get sick, if
my kid gets sick or if I get hitby a car, that there'll be
(07:20):
somebody there to look after me.
That is absolutely not true inmost of the world that there'll
be somebody there to look afterme.
That is absolutely not true inmost of the world.
In most of the world you're onyour own.
You're hoping for a stranger topick you up and throw you in
the back of a car if they haveone and to be dropped off at a
hospital where there may or maynot be emergency medicine
probably not emergency medicineand we in the West just take it
so for granted that this safetynet will always be there.
(07:43):
But it might not always bethere.
It really is under stress for alot of financial reasons, for a
lot of psych reasons, because wehad about 20% of the nurses
leave the profession duringCOVID or after COVID.
That's put huge stresses on thehospitals.
The wait times are enormous.
We have to find solutions tothis because the emergency
(08:04):
departments, while they're stillthere, many of them have become
so dysfunctional that peoplehave to wait for 12, 14, 24
hours.
When I was training at UCI as aresident, if we had a patient
wait for an hour or two, thatwas a big deal at some of these
big centers.
12 to 24 hours is routine at themost prestigious hospital Not
(08:25):
the county hospitals, but themost prestigious hospitals
because all of the patients arewaiting downstairs and there's
simply nowhere to put them.
And you see some of that in thepit.
You see these overcrowdedwaiting rooms and you see that
people are getting agitated,which I understand.
But if people can understand,the system is broken, not the
docs, the nurses.
(08:46):
They're not back there.
You know smoking cigarettes andpounding beers.
They're going as fast as theycan.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, as fast as they can.
And one of the things thatstruck me is I suppose I should
potentially give a spoiler alerthere and this is a season one
spoiler alert for those who arelistening you know there is a
moment where the charge nurse,dana who's just incredible and
managing, you know it makes it.
The show makes it clear that herability to manage what is
(09:13):
otherwise chaotic in the ED isjust is extraordinary.
She does take a moment to stepoutside and have a cigarette and
gets attacked in that moment inan example of workplace
violence which is just horrific.
And the agitated patient whohas been waiting a long time
with a what appears we don'tknow fully what his condition is
(09:35):
, but it appears to be not lifethreateningreatening he seems to
be angry that she's pausing totake a break, a momentary break,
to just not be right in thatchaotic moment and finds that
unacceptable, which one of thethings I love on the show is it
(09:56):
does allow.
Even as the actors are workingthrough scenarios in which the
level of intensity is huge, theyalso have very human moments,
and the idea that a patientwould be angry that a nurse in a
12-hour shift takes a momentarybreak, I think is appalling and
I really appreciate the show'sportrayal of the human side of
(10:19):
these characters and I reallyappreciate the show's portrayal
of the human side of thesecharacters yeah, that idea that
these are superheroes.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
But they are not superhuman.
They are human.
They need to take breaks.
Imagine if you're flying in a747 across the Atlantic and the
captain is really tired becauseshe's been doing this shift for
12 hours, but there's stillanother four hours to go.
There's a reason why inprofessions like that, it's like
there's mandatory breaks.
No, you go away now.
(10:44):
You have a break.
You have the co-pilot takeoverbecause the stakes are so high.
You can't be so tired thatyou'll make a mistake.
We don't have that in emergencymedicine and yet it's even more
stressful.
It's a constant flow of stressand tasks switching.
And look at this EKG, look atthis x-ray, look at this new
patient over here.
We've got a trauma coming.
It's really a huge cognitiveburden and we need to have these
(11:09):
docs and nurses have a safeplace and time to go and take a
break or you'll make mistakes.
Because this is this hugecognitive burden and it should
be sort of a mandatory part ofemergency medicine.
But that means that you need tohave people who are able to
cover and right now we justdon't have enough people.
There's not enough nurses,there's not enough docs, there's
(11:32):
not enough support, so it'sreally quite a dangerous thing,
but certainly people need tounderstand.
If you see a doctor or nurse inthe parking lot taking a break,
leave them alone.
They need a moment.
You have no idea what just wenton inside.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yes, yes and and yeah , and that idea that you alluded
to earlier that the anger thatthey're experiencing or
frustration with the wait times,while understandable given the
circumstances, is misdirectedwhen it's directed at the
clinicians, right.
I think the show also does anice job with the chief medical
(12:10):
officer coming down with heradministrative priorities, which
are also in many waysunderstandable, and I know a lot
of leaders in healthcaresystems who are trying to do
amazing things with a lot ofcompassion.
But there can be a disconnect,place right either to treatment
(12:42):
and out, or treatment orstabilization and up into the
system are staying there fordays and days and that adds to
the burden.
And that's part of where thatshortage you talked about really
plays in and plays out morestrongly in the ED than perhaps
in other areas in and plays outmore strongly in the ED than
perhaps in other areas.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, it becomes the dumping ground for a system
that's broken.
So the ERs are always asked tojust deal with it.
So we've got 60 patients thathave beds upstairs.
You just look after themdownstairs.
In most hospitals, in moststates, there's nursing ratios.
You can't have 12 patients whenyou're on the med-surg floor as
a nurse, but you can in theemergency department.
(13:23):
So the default is just leavethem in the emergency department
where they're alreadyoverwhelmed, where they've got
new patients coming, and that isnot good care.
That is actually terrible care.
And I should say something aboutGloria, who is the medical
administrator in the show.
I know lots of medicaladministrators and everybody's
trying to help.
Everybody's trying to do theirpart.
(13:44):
People always ask what's one ofthe most unrealistic things
about the show.
I'm like.
Well, one of my top threeunrealistic things is that the
medical administrators veryrarely come down.
Only the cream of the crop comedown.
Only those that are veryconfident come to the emergency
department and see what's goingon.
I wish administrators wouldcome down more often and see
what's going on, like she doesin the show.
I wish the people that ran thehealthcare systems would come
(14:07):
and volunteer and hang out for afew days.
In other industries the C-suiteare made to go and work the
front desk, I think it'sEnterprise Rent-A-Car is one of
those where the C-suite is likeyou need to come and see what it
looks like interfacing with thepublic, listen to their
complaints so that when you goback to your ivory tower you'll
(14:28):
have some actual experience.
I'd like to see more of that.
I'd like to see people in power, and again, not just the
hospital administrators, but thepeople that are buying hospital
systems and trying to flip themfor profit.
It's like come down and seewhat that looks like, see what
that really means.
I do not believe thathealthcare should be a
for-profit industry.
I'm a bit of a socialist whogrew up in Australia in a
(14:50):
nationalised healthcare system.
I just think that there aresome things that should not be
for profit.
That profit should be put backinto the system so that we can
give better care.
But that's going to be a hardthing to convince people of
until they go down and they seewhat it looks like.
What does it look like when youhave an understaffed,
overwhelmed system?
And that's what the show isallowing us to show the general
(15:14):
public.
This is what it looks like, andit could get worse if we don't
fix it.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
And it could get worse if we don't fix it.
Yeah, I want to pull up alittle bit, because one of the
reasons I was so struck by theshow is that at the Heart of
Safety Coalition, we lookexclusively at care team member
safety and we think of it asbeing comprised of three pillars
psychological and emotionalsafety.
You've already talked aboutcognitive load, dignity and
(15:41):
inclusion, which is about, youknow, just treatment and
fairness.
Physical safety, whichincludesle with workplace
violence.
We see substance use disorder,we see bullying,
(16:02):
under-resourcing, thatadministrative pressure you
talked about from Gloria, and wealso see the very real impact
on healthcare team members ofsocial issues, including the
fentanyl crisis, socialdeterminants of health, gun
violence, situations wherefamily members' choices don't
align with evidence-basedpractice, and those ones are
particularly painful, that moralinjury potential, and it's a
(16:25):
lot.
So you are an emergencymedicine physician.
How well is this representingwhat it feels like to be a
healthcare professional rightnow?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So I'm going to hand it to Joe again, the lead
medical writer.
There's actually, I think,seven ER docs on the show now,
but Joe is the lead writer andhe has worked in emergency
departments, trauma centers inLA for over 35 years and he
brought all of that knowledgeand that experience to the show.
And then we talk a lot about itand I talk to our subscribers
(17:00):
across the country about thestresses that they're having and
everybody's feeling the samething, all of the things that
you just outlined.
Everybody is feeling to agreater or lesser degree.
Some it's overwhelming, some toa little lesser degree, but
those stresses they're all therethe workplace violence, the
moral injury, the just sort offeeling completely overwhelmed
(17:23):
and the amount of psychologicaldamage and substance abuse.
And unfortunately, every timethere's a study of who is the
most burnt out in the house ofmedicine and all of medicine is
under stress.
But every single time there's astudy, emergency medicine is on
top and if we look atself-injury, emergency
physicians die by their own handat astounding rates compared to
(17:47):
the rest of the population.
So I think the show just does agood job of showing like this
is real, this isn't made up forHollywood.
This is a Hollywoodrepresentation of what's
actually happening in the realworld, to real people.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And I know the show focuses on the ED and you are an
ED physician, and I presumemany of the consulting if not
all of the consulting physiciansare ED focused.
I'm curious if you have aperspective, though, about the
degree to which these areuniversal challenges for
healthcare professionals.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, I talked to a lot of docs in a lot of
different fields and it is notunique to emergency medicine.
It is throughout the house ofmedicine.
A lot of the pressuresfinancial time, moral injury
occur through all thespecialties.
And one of the things that isstunning and when you look at
those studies that look atburnout is that every single
profession in medicine has somedegree of burnout.
(18:40):
Emergency medicine might benumber one, but even people like
family medicine, where youthink like that should be a much
less stressful job, no, they'resuffering.
And I talked to my familypractice doc, left medicine and
started a totally different typeof medicine because she's like
I spend half of my time, atleast half of my time fighting
with insurance companies to justgo and give my patients care
(19:02):
and after 15 years I can't takeit anymore.
So this is throughout the Houseof Medicine.
We have a broken system.
We have a system that is brokenon so many levels, but a big
part of it is that we don'tunderstand that this should be a
right and we should be takingthe profit motive out of
medicine.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I think it starts there.
Let's dig into that right,because I want to talk about a
slightly different right.
I know recently on your podcastDirty White Coat, you had Dr
Stephanie Simmons, the ChiefMedical Officer of the Dr Lorna
Breen Heroes Foundation, andthat is a group that is focused
on and making just incrediblestrides in trying to remove the
(19:43):
cultural and systemic barriersto access to mental health care
for clinicians.
Not with the idea that we don'tneed to fix these structural
things that you're talking about.
We absolutely do, and both inthe meantime and even in a more
functional system, there's achallenge with clinicians
(20:04):
getting the help that they need,and we see Dr Rabi have, during
a just horrific experience onthe show, have a mental
breakdown, which is completelyunderstandable, and then you see
him distressed, feeling notlike he needs help but like he
has failed.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat mental health concern and
(20:26):
what it means for clinicians?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, I think we talked about this idea that when
you're an ER doc, you have thisbackpack and you go in and you
try to resuscitate a child andthey die and you take that
terrible emotion and thatfeeling of just failure and you
throw all that into yourbackpack.
And then you go into the nextroom and there's a young woman
(20:51):
who's dying of cancer and it'sjust not fair and she's got two
kids and she ends up dying andyou take all that emotion and
you've got to go see the nextpatient.
So you throw it in yourbackpack and over time the
backpack is so full of all ofthese undealt with moral
injuries that you tip over.
And that happens to so manyclinicians.
It happened to me After 25years.
(21:13):
My backpack filled up and Itipped over.
I was having flashbacks of allof the dead patients that I'd
looked after the little kids,the elderly and I'd never dealt
with it and I hadn't dealt withit with my career, because we're
sort of told that's weakness.
You shouldn't get help for yourdepression, for your PTSD, for
your anxiety.
We're doctors.
(21:36):
We should be able to just suckit up and go, and it's such a
terrible message that we've had.
We also have a system that saysyou have to disclose all that,
like you did something wrong.
Oh, you got help for yourmental health.
It should be the other way.
You didn't.
That's a problem and we need tode-stigmatize that because
everybody has it.
Every single doc I talk to andI talk to a lot of clinicians
every single one has a backpackthat is full of stuff that they
(21:58):
need to deal with.
And I've talked a lot recentlyabout the fact that I think
every doc and nurse that worksin these settings should have
mandated mental health care.
And if you're doing well, fine,it's a shorter episode, it's a
little less counseling, whateverit is, but everybody should get
it so the stigma goes away.
We should be just destroying thestigma.
(22:19):
This is not normal.
You cannot go to war and watchpeople die or kill people and
come out of that without PTSD.
You just can't, because you'rea human.
Only robots can do that.
But that's what we're askingemergency clinicians and
clinicians in many specialtiesto do here go to war for us, but
we're not actually going tolook after you.
You're just going to have todeal with it yourself, and I
(22:40):
just think that's wrong.
It should be part of medicalpractice, nursing practices that
every single person has routinemental health care because they
need it.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, and the good news is so.
We're doing some research incollaboration with the Dr Lorna
Brin-Harris Foundation, askingclinicians about their barriers
to mental health access, andI've been reading through the
open-ended responses to whatsolutions might be, and I was
surprised at the number ofpeople who said make this
mandatory, right.
Like I've not heard a lot ofpeople say I want one more
mandated thing on my, my plate.
(23:11):
This is clearly a fundamentallydifferent kind of thing because,
as the show depicts and as yousay, in in real life, the kinds
of things that emergencyclinicians and clinicians in
other parts of medicine arefacing with the death, the loss,
the dying Clinicians andclinicians in other parts of
(23:36):
medicine are facing with thedeath, the loss, the dying, the
inequities, the lack of fairness, the overburdening is not
something First of all, it'ssomething we should strive to
eliminate as much as possiblefor what's structurally there.
But support with absolutely noquestions, with absolutely no
questions and, as you said,almost a question of why
wouldn't?
As a patient, I would certainlyprefer that my clinicians are
getting the mental health carethat they need, and I think one
of the things I love about theshow is the possibility that
(23:59):
people will watch it and say ofcourse, and be part of rallying
with the Dr Lauren Breen HeroesFoundation and others rallying
to say clinical access to mentalhealth care for health care
professionals is essential.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, there can't be any spoilers for season two, but
this is some of the stuff thatwe want to continue telling that
story, and I'm a littledisappointed that other people
have decided that getting mentalhealth care for everybody is a
good idea.
I thought it was mine, Ithought it was all mine, I
thought it was the only one, andit turns out I'm not the only
one, and that makes me soheartened to hear that there are
(24:37):
clinicians who understand yeah,this is the way to go and it
shouldn't be on your own time,your expense.
This should just be part of thejob.
It should be paid for for theclinician and for the therapist
or whoever it is, and thereshould be time set aside for
that.
So it should be a real thing,not like an unfunded mandate,
which we are so fond of herewhen it comes to healthcare.
(24:58):
There should be a fundedmandate that everybody can be
involved.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
In terms of both finance and time, as you said,
and fortunately, again, that'swhat we see in the comments and
hopefully elevating those voiceswill help make that a reality.
So I sort of put the words inyour mouth around that being an
outcome.
But what else do you hopeeither lay audiences or
leadership audiences orprofessional audiences will take
(25:23):
away from watching the show?
What kind of change are youhoping to inspire?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Well, the most important thing is to show the
humanism of the docs and nurses.
I think this show has givenpeople a window into what that
actually looks like for thefirst time.
To hear docs say my familyreally had no idea what I do.
And now they sit with me as wewatch the show and we pause and
(25:49):
they're like is that true, isthat thing, does that happen?
And you're saying yes, and it'slike dad, do you do this for
eight hours, 12 hours at a time,like, yes, that's what I do.
So I think that's the mostimportant thing, because from
that comes compassion and fromthat comes to action.
Compassion and from that comesto action.
I just heard Jon Stewart talkingabout his show, about how, as a
(26:10):
comedian, your job is to makepeople laugh, but it's also to
make them think.
But don't think, as a comedian,that just making people laugh
about really difficult things inthe world actually fixes those
things.
And this is the same thing.
You actually have to go out andnow do something about it.
So I think what this showallows is people this window
into here's what's going on.
(26:30):
These are humans.
Now let's do something about it.
Just watching the show doesn'tfix anything except educate you.
But now what are we going to dowith that education?
So I'm I'm hoping that thereare people in power and that
will help make change People whoare hospital administrators,
people who are family members ofthe docs and the nurses that
(26:52):
are working in these situationsto start putting pressure on
their congressmen and to changethe way things are done.
If this show can do a littlebit of that, then it is
absolutely worthwhile.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Well, I think it is incredibly worthwhile and I do
think that storytelling andperspective taking and all of
those things that create thatconnection and compassion are
the foundation of change.
So thank you for being part ofthat.
I know you're surrounded byalso an extraordinary team of
other people that are bringingthis to life, but thank you for
bringing medical realism but,more importantly, for bringing
(27:29):
human realism to a medium thatallows people an inside look at
what it's really like and whatwe need to change in healthcare.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
And thank you for the work that you're doing.
It's so important.
We, hopefully, are on theprecipice of helping fix one
area of mental health, butmental health is a thing that we
all need to be talking about inall of our jobs, in all of our
lives.
There's been a stigma aroundthis for a few thousand years.
It's time to get rid of this.
We need to be able to talkabout this in the open, all of
(28:04):
us and maybe this can start thatconversation, because here are
the people who are supposed tobe like the superheroes.
They're not coping.
You know why?
Because we're human.
Let's have the discussionsabout what it means to be human.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, being human is central to all of this.
Well, and any last thoughts youwant to share before we wrap up
.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
No, I just just thank you for the work you're doing,
and there's so many groups herethat are doing this.
It's just such a pleasure to beable to be part of the show.
I hope it goes for many seasons.
We have so many stories to tell, so make sure you watch the
show, because that's the wayit'll stay up, watch the show,
tell your friends to watch theshow and hopefully we can have
at least a number of moreseasons where we can tell this,
(28:46):
because it's very complicated.
We've only just scratched thesurface.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yes, and I hope it continues as well.
I personally am a big fan and Ithink storytelling is such an
important part, as I said, ofdriving change.
So thank you, mel, for joiningus today and thank you for the
work you're doing.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
If you enjoyed this episode of the Caring Greatly
podcast, please subscribe andrate us on Apple or Thank you
and do not necessarily reflectthose of Stryker.
Participants have not beencompensated and are selected
(29:28):
solely based on their expertise,regardless of whether they have
any relationship with Stryker.
I am your host, Liz Bohm,Executive Strategist of the
Heart of Safety Coalition,brought to you by Stryker.
Thank you for caring greatly.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com