The episode delves into how the church can better embrace and empower individuals with disabilities within its mission and evangelism strategies. Dr. Rochelle Sheuermann shares her insights on rethinking the definitions of evangelism and engaging the diverse gifts of all people, including those with disabilities.
• Dr. Rochelle Sherman discusses her journey toward understanding evangelism and disability
• She emphasizes the need for churches to look beyond limitations and recognize gifts
• The importance of childlike faith in experiencing God’s presence is highlighted
• Exploration of the reduced definition of evangelism and its implications
• The conversation encourages a holistic understanding of God’s mission that integrates disability
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Disabling the Church is a production of the Center
for Disability and Ministry atWestern Theological Seminary.
This series amplifies thevoices, giftedness and
perspectives of disabled peopleto enrich the ministry and
witness of the church.
And perspectives of disabledpeople to enrich the ministry
and witness of the church.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello and welcome again to Disabling the Church
podcast.
I am your host, dr LS Carlos,and today I'm joined by a new
friend, reverend Dr RochelleSherman, who is the Associate
Professor of Evangelism andLeadership at Wheaton.
She also has an administrativeload that she carries, but as
(00:51):
part of her faculty load sheteaches on evangelism and
leadership and has begun toenter the conversation around
disability and theology, whichbrings her here today, and I'd
love to invite her into tellingus a little bit about her
research, her writing and herpassion for the church, and a
bit about her life story.
As you listen in, be mindful ofthe fact that these
conversations are not scripted,and so what you're being invited
(01:15):
into is an opportunity to hearthe voice of the Spirit in
another person and in the midstof a conversation shared between
two people.
But if this conversation openssomething new for you, feel free
to write in, make comments, askquestions, and I'll do what I
can to get in touch again withDr Sherman and see if she'd be
(01:37):
willing to continue to expandthe conversation.
So, without further ado,welcome.
Thank you, rochelle, foragreeing to share some time with
me.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself, and then what is it
that kind of pivoted you towardthe research that you're doing
now?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Thanks, carlos, so good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
When I got married, my husband and I were looking
toward having children anddecided that it was time for us
to adopt.
And when we adopted our firstson, he was actually born with
Down syndrome.
And so we entered into thisconversation, I think somewhat
naive, thinking that we knewwhat we were getting into, and
(02:19):
we really didn't, but we wereopen to whatever God had for us.
Now, backing up a bit myprofessional life, I've been in
education, I've pastored, and myreal heart is for helping the
church understand God's missionand how to engage in God's
mission.
And not long after we'd adoptedour son, I had an encounter
(02:41):
where a woman approached us justout of the blue and was saying
how excited she was that she hadthis thought that, hey, can I
pray for your son so that he canbe healed?
And like I'm wondering, is itgoing to change his physical
features too?
And it was such an astoundingkind of in-your-face experience
(03:02):
that I didn't know what to dowith it, and one of my first
instincts was to say well, whatdoes my discipline say about
this?
There has to be something in mydiscipline, pete.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Such a good academic.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Jennifer, a total academic and it's supposed to be
a practical field that says howdo we engage people and society
well with the gospel?
And there was nothing.
I found one book by Ben Connoron disabling mission and as I
read it it just sparkedsomething in me and I realized
that this was what I think.
(03:33):
In some sense God put me hereto do to engage the church and
help expand the conversation.
And so my research really doestry to intersect theologically
how do we understand disabilityfrom a theological standpoint?
How do we understand disabilityfrom a theological standpoint?
How do we relate disability toGod's mission and what God is
doing in the world?
And then to try to thinkpractically what does this mean?
(03:54):
So currently I am working on howto understand disability and
evangelism and to say how do weunderstand where people fit
within God's story and how do wepractically engage people with
disabilities in evangelism, andnot just as recipients, which we
absolutely need to do?
Research tells us people withdisabilities are just not being
reached by the gospel, so we'renot even seeing people with
(04:17):
disabilities as part of ourmission and evangelism
strategies.
But then the whole goal ofevangelism is to incorporate
people as full-fledged membersof the body of Christ.
So how is it that, for thosethat are in the church, how are
we releasing their gifts toparticipate and to lead in the
mission evangelism practices?
Because people withdisabilities very much have
(04:37):
giftings and callings by God andthey have a story to tell and
God wants to use them as well inthat process.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Wow, Thank you.
Thank you, Rochelle.
Would you be willing to justprovide a clear definition of
when you use the word evangelism.
How are you defining this?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah.
So for me, evangelism ishelping people understand the
full story of God.
So we're not doing apropositional truth, but we're
actually telling a true goodnews story, and we're doing so
in a way that gives witness towhat Jesus has done in our lives
and has an opportunity forothers to then be drawn into
that story, as we can invitethem along that journey to maybe
(05:18):
make a step toward toward Jesus.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So I wonder if, in a room filled with people who live
with people with disabilitiesor have disabilities themselves,
you've already touched on thefact that that gets complicated
right.
So much of the conversationthen pivots toward how do we
preach to you, how do we reachyou with the gospel, how do we
evangelize you right?
(05:44):
And so much of what you'resaying says yes, and people with
disabilities have gifts andhave been called by God and
should be involved in themission of God and the work of
God in the world.
So how do you make that movewith people?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
So let me start with a story about my own son.
We were at a church again whenhe was fairly young and when he
had aged out of the nursery wewere ready to put him into the
next class and there wasimmediate hesitation, with the
usual questions Well, is hegoing to get anything out of it?
Can he follow directions?
We're just not sure.
(06:18):
And we let him in for the firstSunday and he had a great time
and they kind of came back withwell, we think he followed
directions.
We really don't know that hegot anything.
But the excuse became the TV'snot bolted down and it's not
safe for him to be there.
So until we make some of thesephysical adjustments he needs to
go back to the nursery.
Now they hadn't made thosephysical adjustments for any
other kid in the room, eventhough at the age of three the
(06:42):
two and three-year-olds the TVshould be bolted down.
After that much resistance weleft.
But when we went to our nextchurch the family ministries
pastor we had a conversationwith her first time we ever met
her and she's asking questionslike well, tell me about your
son, what do we need to get toknow about him?
And as she listened, she rubbedhis back and she said to him I
(07:05):
can't wait to see what gifts Godhas for the church through you.
And it wasn't directed even tous.
It was directed to him, and thechange in that outlook
completely flipped the scriptfor him, to the point that when
he turned four and was still oneyear away from being in the
next classroom, she recognizedthat he wasn't getting what he
(07:28):
needed to become a disciple, andshe actually advanced him early
to the next class and withinthat year he was singing the
doxology, the Lord's Prayer, theCeltic benediction.
He was blessing people in thename of the Father, son, holy
Spirit, and so, for me, walkingpeople down that path is simply
flipping the script from whatcan't you do to what is God
(07:49):
wanting to do through you.
And the moment we see thatperson as God has something for
you, then we're looking foropportunities to pull them along
, to speak in their language, toprovide them the tools and
whatever it is that they need togrow and expand, because if
(08:09):
we're looking for gifts, we'regoing to find gifts.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It sounds like so much of what you are sort of
entering into is linkedinseparably to what your family
has also walked through.
So what do you say, in themidst of wanting to expand the
way that people do theology andengage evangelism?
(08:34):
Some of what you've talkedabout it's related to gifts, but
are there other things, likethe way that the church talks
about evangelism or mission ortheology, that can be changed or
expanded so that people likeyou, people like your son, are
actually invited in instead ofkept out?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Yeah, I think, in particular, the first starting
point that comes to mind is evenhow we understand what
evangelism is and what thegospel story is, because we've
really reduced the gospel tothis propositional statement
that you need to believe a verydeep theological truth Jesus
(09:19):
died in place of you and if youbelieve that then you get to go
to heaven.
And in that it's a veryrational propositional statement
that for everybody, regardlessof your ability, is not giving
you the full gospel message.
The full gospel is a Genesis toRevelation, robust story of
God's mission, his call, hispurpose for what he has created
(09:42):
and how we are to live andfunction in the world.
And instead we've reduced it toa proposition that people have
to give some sort of a mentalassent.
And then we've developed all ofthese practices of.
This is what it means for youto check the boxes to say I've
bought into that proposition.
And all of those things can bevery exclusive of people like my
son, who don't think inpropositional, rational, logical
(10:04):
steps, who when you ask aquestion and want them to pare
it back, something like theycan't even answer the boxes.
And so part of what we have tothink is number one how are we
telling the gospel story.
Where is it placing people withdisability in that gospel story
?
That their lives really aren'tabout the fall.
They really are part of thegood creation that God has
(10:24):
created, even as we wrestle withthe complexities of what the
fall produces in people.
But we start with what is thegospel story and then we think
of how is it that we're sharingthat with other people?
And for my son, we're thinkingvery creatively about how we
incorporate God into ourconversations and what that
looks like, the ways that weneed to think pictorially and
(10:49):
full body movement.
What concepts are reallyimportant for Him to the
ultimate goal of?
How do we think about what doesit look like for Him to be a
follower of Christ?
And I think, as we think aboutthat, it actually helps us in
all circumstances to have abetter understanding of
conversion, that we're pointingpeople toward Christ and
watching them turn their livesin a Christ-ward direction,
(11:10):
rather than simply giving amental assent to something that
may or may not have actuallybrought about full life
transformation.
When you go back to scriptureand you actually ask the
question what does conversionlook like?
When you go back to scriptureand you actually ask the
question, what does conversionlook like?
In the narrative that we havebeen given, you actually see
multiple ways in which that isdisplayed.
You see Jesus telling us thatwe have to have childlike faith,
(11:35):
that we need to become like achild to enter the kingdom of
God.
That doesn't require a deeptheological propositional truth
that we have to give assent tological, propositional truth
that we have to give assent to.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, the idea of so childlike faith that phrase is
often mentioned in discoursearound disability.
Right, it sounds like the waythat you're framing it is more
connected with the capacity towonder and not become stagnant
in terms of how we engage theday-to-day world Children.
When they're meandering throughthe world, they're fascinated
by blades of grass and leaves,and colors and the sky and the
(12:09):
sound of birds or whatever itmight be.
They're not so much derailed bywhat's familiar, because
everything is unfamiliar.
And is that kind of what youtalk about, when you think about
, when you use the wordchildlike faith?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, I think in two directions, and both.
I'm going to relate to my son.
There was one time where wetook a nature walk with him and
we were just walking around andwe kept calling him to come to
us and we turned around and herehe was, a child of maybe three
years old and he is standingthere looking off.
We turned around and here hewas, a child of maybe three
years old and he is standingthere looking off across a field
and the wind is blowing andthere is this sense of wonder on
(12:48):
his face and he just standsthere and he's taking it in and
he's slowly touching all of theblades of grass, the flowers,
and it drew us into this holymoment of saying God is present
in this creation and he isexperiencing it in a way that we
so often just miss becausewe're not looking for God.
And yet Scripture's clear Allof creation declares His wonders
(13:09):
and he communed with God inthat way.
So I think it's that childlikewonder that you talked about,
and I think it's also just a Idon't know.
There's just this I'm trying tofind the right word for it but
children are not caught up byall of the things that capture
our brains.
They can just say things asthey are and it's unfiltered.
(13:30):
And there was a moment where wewere reading through his Bible.
He's got the big picture storyBible and we read through it a
lot and there's moments where hecan look at a picture and he's
starting to figure out what partof the story it is.
And so he remembers that whenAbraham looked up into the sky
and suddenly believed because hesaw the stars, the Bible says a
word about God was happy and ashe looks at the book he'll get
(13:51):
to that picture and he'll justsay and God was happy.
But I'm struck by the fact thatwhen we got to the crucifixion,
you have the crucifixion andthen they have one chapter about
it being a very dark day as thedisciples are not sure what
happens, and then resurrectionhappens.
And when we got to that we weretrying to ask him well, do you
know what story we're at now?
And he looked at it and hestudied the picture and he said
(14:13):
God's holy darkness.
And I've never understood itbefore but in that moment I was
like he has just captured a deeptheological truth that I don't
think is even fully somethingthat he recognizes, but he
articulates it in a way thatthat childlike faith spoke deep
theology, and that's the kind ofchildlike faith that we need
(14:36):
present in the church.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Wow, if you're listening today and you're
interested in checking out thisbig picture story Bible that
Rochelle just mentioned, we'llattach a link below this where
you can learn more about that.
And some of what you'rementioning, rochelle, makes me
think about a grant that is sortof in play here presently
overlapping nature and thenatural world with children with
(15:02):
disabilities and followingchildren into nature and sort of
trying to observe as the spiritdoes work in these children,
interacting with horses andnature and animals, but not as
sort of a peripheral reality inthe church, but as central to
the body of Christ and how Godengages humanity and his people.
(15:25):
And it sounds like that's partof the gift and beauty of
inviting someone into your lifeand being invited into his life
that is drastically differentthan you and in some ways that's
all of us.
We're all different from eachother.
We all come with differentthings to the table and the
spirit kind of unites us andworks in us as a result of the
(15:48):
people sitting next to us whoare different from us, and
there's this innate gift ofwonder that a child holds onto,
because what becomes familiarfor us is still unfamiliar for
them, and maybe if we canembrace the fact that God is
always, in a beautiful way,unfamiliar, because there's
always more to know it shouldalways create a sense of wonder
(16:11):
in us and children, people whoare different from us, cultures
that are different than ours.
They create a space to sayremember the gift and the beauty
of wonder and never lose it,and that's.
That's pretty great.
As we kind of wrap things up,would you mind telling us a
little bit about your mostrecent book and why maybe we
(16:37):
should pick it up, if these arethe kinds of things that we are
interested in?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Yeah, so it's still in process.
I'm hopeful that next year itwill be out in publication, that
next year it'll be out inpublication.
But it really is looking atthis idea of disability and
evangelism and I've kind ofsplit it into two sections where
the first really is dealingwith the theological side.
How do we actually understandwhat disability is and what it
means to fit into God's story?
(17:03):
Where does it fit in terms ofcreation?
How do we understand disabilityin terms of the fall and what
sin produces in the world?
How do we understand what thecross does for us so that we
understand what new creationlooks like?
And it tries to make sure thatthe good news really is good
news for everyone and not justfor people that we considered
(17:24):
able-bodied, that the good newsis not just about, oh, people
with disabilities, regardless ofwhat it is, we're just looking
for heaven and give them aperfect body.
But actually, to expand theconversation, say there is
something a lot deeper and moreimportant than what we're
dealing with with our bodies,while saying our bodies fully
matter in what God has done increation, what God has done in
(17:44):
redemption and what God will doin new creation.
So I'm trying to map that out,and once we get everybody kind
of on the same pagetheologically, I'm then diving
into.
Well, what do we mean then byevangelism?
And so we'll look at evangelismand conversion and how that
intersects with people withdisability, to the point that we
look at some specificevangelism practices that are
very common in the church to sayhow is it that we can actually
(18:07):
make sure that we are thinkingabout reaching people with
disability through thesedifferent types of evangelism?
How is it that we're taking thepeople in our church that do
have disabilities and actuallyincorporating them into these
ministries as well, equippingthem and releasing them as
participants and at times evenleaders, in what the mission of
(18:27):
the church is doing?
That sounds incredible.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Do you have a working title for that book?
And at times even leaders inwhat the mission of the church
is doing.
That sounds incredible.
Do you have a working title forthat book?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I've kept it at Disability and Evangelism right
now.
At some point we'll probablyneed to snazz it up just a
little bit, but I figured we'llstart with what it really is,
and because I think even in thatsense everybody's looking for
something on how do weunderstand evangelism and its
intersection with disability.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
That's wonderful.
That's wonderful.
Thank you so much for agreeingto share some time with us.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
My pleasure.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
And I look forward to continuing this conversation as
the Lord wills.
Thank you all for listening andsharing some time with us today
.
May the Lord keep you.
May the Lord bless you.
May the Lord call His face toshine upon you.
In the name of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, be blessed.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
This has been a Center for Disability and
Ministry production.
Join us next time for anotherinsightful episode.
Disabling the Church is a production of the Center
for Disability and Ministry atWestern Theological Seminary.
This series amplifies thevoices, giftedness and
perspectives of disabled peopleto enrich the ministry and
witness of the church.
And perspectives of disabledpeople to enrich the ministry
and witness of the church.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello and welcome again to Disabling the Church
podcast.
I am your host, dr LS Carlos,and today I'm joined by a new
friend, reverend Dr RochelleSherman, who is the Associate
Professor of Evangelism andLeadership at Wheaton.
She also has an administrativeload that she carries, but as
(00:51):
part of her faculty load sheteaches on evangelism and
leadership and has begun toenter the conversation around
disability and theology, whichbrings her here today, and I'd
love to invite her into tellingus a little bit about her
research, her writing and herpassion for the church, and a
bit about her life story.
As you listen in, be mindful ofthe fact that these
conversations are not scripted,and so what you're being invited
(01:15):
into is an opportunity to hearthe voice of the Spirit in
another person and in the midstof a conversation shared between
two people.
But if this conversation openssomething new for you, feel free
to write in, make comments, askquestions, and I'll do what I
can to get in touch again withDr Sherman and see if she'd be
(01:37):
willing to continue to expandthe conversation.
So, without further ado,welcome.
Thank you, rochelle, foragreeing to share some time with
me.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself, and then what is it
that kind of pivoted you towardthe research that you're doing
now?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Thanks, carlos, so good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
When I got married, my husband and I were looking
toward having children anddecided that it was time for us
to adopt.
And when we adopted our firstson, he was actually born with
Down syndrome.
And so we entered into thisconversation, I think somewhat
naive, thinking that we knewwhat we were getting into, and
(02:19):
we really didn't, but we wereopen to whatever God had for us.
Now, backing up a bit myprofessional life, I've been in
education, I've pastored, and myreal heart is for helping the
church understand God's missionand how to engage in God's
mission.
And not long after we'd adoptedour son, I had an encounter
(02:41):
where a woman approached us justout of the blue and was saying
how excited she was that she hadthis thought that, hey, can I
pray for your son so that he canbe healed?
And like I'm wondering, is itgoing to change his physical
features too?
And it was such an astoundingkind of in-your-face experience
(03:02):
that I didn't know what to dowith it, and one of my first
instincts was to say well, whatdoes my discipline say about
this?
There has to be something in mydiscipline, pete.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Such a good academic.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Jennifer, a total academic and it's supposed to be
a practical field that says howdo we engage people and society
well with the gospel?
And there was nothing.
I found one book by Ben Connoron disabling mission and as I
read it it just sparkedsomething in me and I realized
that this was what I think.
(03:33):
In some sense God put me hereto do to engage the church and
help expand the conversation.
And so my research really doestry to intersect theologically
how do we understand disabilityfrom a theological standpoint?
How do we understand disabilityfrom a theological standpoint?
How do we relate disability toGod's mission and what God is
doing in the world?
And then to try to thinkpractically what does this mean?
(03:54):
So currently I am working on howto understand disability and
evangelism and to say how do weunderstand where people fit
within God's story and how do wepractically engage people with
disabilities in evangelism, andnot just as recipients, which we
absolutely need to do?
Research tells us people withdisabilities are just not being
reached by the gospel, so we'renot even seeing people with
(04:17):
disabilities as part of ourmission and evangelism
strategies.
But then the whole goal ofevangelism is to incorporate
people as full-fledged membersof the body of Christ.
So how is it that, for thosethat are in the church, how are
we releasing their gifts toparticipate and to lead in the
mission evangelism practices?
Because people withdisabilities very much have
(04:37):
giftings and callings by God andthey have a story to tell and
God wants to use them as well inthat process.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Wow, Thank you.
Thank you, Rochelle.
Would you be willing to justprovide a clear definition of
when you use the word evangelism.
How are you defining this?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah.
So for me, evangelism ishelping people understand the
full story of God.
So we're not doing apropositional truth, but we're
actually telling a true goodnews story, and we're doing so
in a way that gives witness towhat Jesus has done in our lives
and has an opportunity forothers to then be drawn into
that story, as we can invitethem along that journey to maybe
(05:18):
make a step toward toward Jesus.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So I wonder if, in a room filled with people who live
with people with disabilitiesor have disabilities themselves,
you've already touched on thefact that that gets complicated
right.
So much of the conversationthen pivots toward how do we
preach to you, how do we reachyou with the gospel, how do we
evangelize you right?
(05:44):
And so much of what you'resaying says yes, and people with
disabilities have gifts andhave been called by God and
should be involved in themission of God and the work of
God in the world.
So how do you make that movewith people?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
So let me start with a story about my own son.
We were at a church again whenhe was fairly young and when he
had aged out of the nursery wewere ready to put him into the
next class and there wasimmediate hesitation, with the
usual questions Well, is hegoing to get anything out of it?
Can he follow directions?
We're just not sure.
(06:18):
And we let him in for the firstSunday and he had a great time
and they kind of came back withwell, we think he followed
directions.
We really don't know that hegot anything.
But the excuse became the TV'snot bolted down and it's not
safe for him to be there.
So until we make some of thesephysical adjustments he needs to
go back to the nursery.
Now they hadn't made thosephysical adjustments for any
other kid in the room, eventhough at the age of three the
(06:42):
two and three-year-olds the TVshould be bolted down.
After that much resistance weleft.
But when we went to our nextchurch the family ministries
pastor we had a conversationwith her first time we ever met
her and she's asking questionslike well, tell me about your
son, what do we need to get toknow about him?
And as she listened, she rubbedhis back and she said to him I
(07:05):
can't wait to see what gifts Godhas for the church through you.
And it wasn't directed even tous.
It was directed to him, and thechange in that outlook
completely flipped the scriptfor him, to the point that when
he turned four and was still oneyear away from being in the
next classroom, she recognizedthat he wasn't getting what he
(07:28):
needed to become a disciple, andshe actually advanced him early
to the next class and withinthat year he was singing the
doxology, the Lord's Prayer, theCeltic benediction.
He was blessing people in thename of the Father, son, holy
Spirit, and so, for me, walkingpeople down that path is simply
flipping the script from whatcan't you do to what is God
(07:49):
wanting to do through you.
And the moment we see thatperson as God has something for
you, then we're looking foropportunities to pull them along
, to speak in their language, toprovide them the tools and
whatever it is that they need togrow and expand, because if
(08:09):
we're looking for gifts, we'regoing to find gifts.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It sounds like so much of what you are sort of
entering into is linkedinseparably to what your family
has also walked through.
So what do you say, in themidst of wanting to expand the
way that people do theology andengage evangelism?
(08:34):
Some of what you've talkedabout it's related to gifts, but
are there other things, likethe way that the church talks
about evangelism or mission ortheology, that can be changed or
expanded so that people likeyou, people like your son, are
actually invited in instead ofkept out?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Yeah, I think, in particular, the first starting
point that comes to mind is evenhow we understand what
evangelism is and what thegospel story is, because we've
really reduced the gospel tothis propositional statement
that you need to believe a verydeep theological truth Jesus
(09:19):
died in place of you and if youbelieve that then you get to go
to heaven.
And in that it's a veryrational propositional statement
that for everybody, regardlessof your ability, is not giving
you the full gospel message.
The full gospel is a Genesis toRevelation, robust story of
God's mission, his call, hispurpose for what he has created
(09:42):
and how we are to live andfunction in the world.
And instead we've reduced it toa proposition that people have
to give some sort of a mentalassent.
And then we've developed all ofthese practices of.
This is what it means for youto check the boxes to say I've
bought into that proposition.
And all of those things can bevery exclusive of people like my
son, who don't think inpropositional, rational, logical
(10:04):
steps, who when you ask aquestion and want them to pare
it back, something like theycan't even answer the boxes.
And so part of what we have tothink is number one how are we
telling the gospel story.
Where is it placing people withdisability in that gospel story
?
That their lives really aren'tabout the fall.
They really are part of thegood creation that God has
(10:24):
created, even as we wrestle withthe complexities of what the
fall produces in people.
But we start with what is thegospel story and then we think
of how is it that we're sharingthat with other people?
And for my son, we're thinkingvery creatively about how we
incorporate God into ourconversations and what that
looks like, the ways that weneed to think pictorially and
(10:49):
full body movement.
What concepts are reallyimportant for Him to the
ultimate goal of?
How do we think about what doesit look like for Him to be a
follower of Christ?
And I think, as we think aboutthat, it actually helps us in
all circumstances to have abetter understanding of
conversion, that we're pointingpeople toward Christ and
watching them turn their livesin a Christ-ward direction,
(11:10):
rather than simply giving amental assent to something that
may or may not have actuallybrought about full life
transformation.
When you go back to scriptureand you actually ask the
question what does conversionlook like?
When you go back to scriptureand you actually ask the
question, what does conversionlook like?
In the narrative that we havebeen given, you actually see
multiple ways in which that isdisplayed.
You see Jesus telling us thatwe have to have childlike faith,
(11:35):
that we need to become like achild to enter the kingdom of
God.
That doesn't require a deeptheological propositional truth
that we have to give assent tological, propositional truth
that we have to give assent to.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, the idea of so childlike faith that phrase is
often mentioned in discoursearound disability.
Right, it sounds like the waythat you're framing it is more
connected with the capacity towonder and not become stagnant
in terms of how we engage theday-to-day world Children.
When they're meandering throughthe world, they're fascinated
by blades of grass and leaves,and colors and the sky and the
(12:09):
sound of birds or whatever itmight be.
They're not so much derailed bywhat's familiar, because
everything is unfamiliar.
And is that kind of what youtalk about, when you think about
, when you use the wordchildlike faith?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, I think in two directions, and both.
I'm going to relate to my son.
There was one time where wetook a nature walk with him and
we were just walking around andwe kept calling him to come to
us and we turned around and herehe was, a child of maybe three
years old and he is standingthere looking off.
We turned around and here hewas, a child of maybe three
years old and he is standingthere looking off across a field
and the wind is blowing andthere is this sense of wonder on
(12:48):
his face and he just standsthere and he's taking it in and
he's slowly touching all of theblades of grass, the flowers,
and it drew us into this holymoment of saying God is present
in this creation and he isexperiencing it in a way that we
so often just miss becausewe're not looking for God.
And yet Scripture's clear Allof creation declares His wonders
(13:09):
and he communed with God inthat way.
So I think it's that childlikewonder that you talked about,
and I think it's also just a Idon't know.
There's just this I'm trying tofind the right word for it but
children are not caught up byall of the things that capture
our brains.
They can just say things asthey are and it's unfiltered.
(13:30):
And there was a moment where wewere reading through his Bible.
He's got the big picture storyBible and we read through it a
lot and there's moments where hecan look at a picture and he's
starting to figure out what partof the story it is.
And so he remembers that whenAbraham looked up into the sky
and suddenly believed because hesaw the stars, the Bible says a
word about God was happy and ashe looks at the book he'll get
(13:51):
to that picture and he'll justsay and God was happy.
But I'm struck by the fact thatwhen we got to the crucifixion,
you have the crucifixion andthen they have one chapter about
it being a very dark day as thedisciples are not sure what
happens, and then resurrectionhappens.
And when we got to that we weretrying to ask him well, do you
know what story we're at now?
And he looked at it and hestudied the picture and he said
(14:13):
God's holy darkness.
And I've never understood itbefore but in that moment I was
like he has just captured a deeptheological truth that I don't
think is even fully somethingthat he recognizes, but he
articulates it in a way thatthat childlike faith spoke deep
theology, and that's the kind ofchildlike faith that we need
(14:36):
present in the church.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Wow, if you're listening today and you're
interested in checking out thisbig picture story Bible that
Rochelle just mentioned, we'llattach a link below this where
you can learn more about that.
And some of what you'rementioning, rochelle, makes me
think about a grant that is sortof in play here presently
overlapping nature and thenatural world with children with
(15:02):
disabilities and followingchildren into nature and sort of
trying to observe as the spiritdoes work in these children,
interacting with horses andnature and animals, but not as
sort of a peripheral reality inthe church, but as central to
the body of Christ and how Godengages humanity and his people.
(15:25):
And it sounds like that's partof the gift and beauty of
inviting someone into your lifeand being invited into his life
that is drastically differentthan you and in some ways that's
all of us.
We're all different from eachother.
We all come with differentthings to the table and the
spirit kind of unites us andworks in us as a result of the
(15:48):
people sitting next to us whoare different from us, and
there's this innate gift ofwonder that a child holds onto,
because what becomes familiarfor us is still unfamiliar for
them, and maybe if we canembrace the fact that God is
always, in a beautiful way,unfamiliar, because there's
always more to know it shouldalways create a sense of wonder
(16:11):
in us and children, people whoare different from us, cultures
that are different than ours.
They create a space to sayremember the gift and the beauty
of wonder and never lose it,and that's.
That's pretty great.
As we kind of wrap things up,would you mind telling us a
little bit about your mostrecent book and why maybe we
(16:37):
should pick it up, if these arethe kinds of things that we are
interested in?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Yeah, so it's still in process.
I'm hopeful that next year itwill be out in publication, that
next year it'll be out inpublication.
But it really is looking atthis idea of disability and
evangelism and I've kind ofsplit it into two sections where
the first really is dealingwith the theological side.
How do we actually understandwhat disability is and what it
means to fit into God's story?
(17:03):
Where does it fit in terms ofcreation?
How do we understand disabilityin terms of the fall and what
sin produces in the world?
How do we understand what thecross does for us so that we
understand what new creationlooks like?
And it tries to make sure thatthe good news really is good
news for everyone and not justfor people that we considered
(17:24):
able-bodied, that the good newsis not just about, oh, people
with disabilities, regardless ofwhat it is, we're just looking
for heaven and give them aperfect body.
But actually, to expand theconversation, say there is
something a lot deeper and moreimportant than what we're
dealing with with our bodies,while saying our bodies fully
matter in what God has done increation, what God has done in
(17:44):
redemption and what God will doin new creation.
So I'm trying to map that out,and once we get everybody kind
of on the same pagetheologically, I'm then diving
into.
Well, what do we mean then byevangelism?
And so we'll look at evangelismand conversion and how that
intersects with people withdisability, to the point that we
look at some specificevangelism practices that are
very common in the church to sayhow is it that we can actually
(18:07):
make sure that we are thinkingabout reaching people with
disability through thesedifferent types of evangelism?
How is it that we're taking thepeople in our church that do
have disabilities and actuallyincorporating them into these
ministries as well, equippingthem and releasing them as
participants and at times evenleaders, in what the mission of
(18:27):
the church is doing?
That sounds incredible.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Do you have a working title for that book?
And at times even leaders inwhat the mission of the church
is doing.
That sounds incredible.
Do you have a working title forthat book?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I've kept it at Disability and Evangelism right
now.
At some point we'll probablyneed to snazz it up just a
little bit, but I figured we'llstart with what it really is,
and because I think even in thatsense everybody's looking for
something on how do weunderstand evangelism and its
intersection with disability.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
That's wonderful.
That's wonderful.
Thank you so much for agreeingto share some time with us.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
My pleasure.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
And I look forward to continuing this conversation as
the Lord wills.
Thank you all for listening andsharing some time with us today
.
May the Lord keep you.
May the Lord bless you.
May the Lord call His face toshine upon you.
In the name of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, be blessed.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
This has been a Center for Disability and
Ministry production.
Join us next time for anotherinsightful episode.
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