Dennis McKenna joins 3L1T3 and Valerie Beltran to discuss the future of psychedelics, indigenous knowledge, and whether we are ready to bring these tools into mainstream culture without repeating the extractive patterns of the past. We explore the gap between good intentions and real reciprocity, what Western psychedelic enthusiasm is missing, and how community-based practice may matter more than clinical models alone.
We also dive into the first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV, how long-term members showed surprising changes in behavior and biology, and why the community structure may have played a larger role than the compound itself. Dennis talks about the work happening at the McKenna Academy, preserving Amazonian herbarium collections, digitizing ancestral plant knowledge, and the ESPD Symposia.
This conversation calls out the cultural side of psychedelics, not just the science. If psychedelics are going to help, they must be integrated with wisdom, not just technology.
Join our Patreon for the exclusive extended interview!
Key Points
- Psychedelics entered global awareness through indigenous stewardship, not Western invention
- Reciprocity requires more than money and acknowledgment
- The ESPD Symposia preserve ethnobotanical knowledge and make it public
- Efforts to digitize herbarium collections in Peru before they are lost
Chapters
00:00 Welcome to the season finale with Valerie
01:10 Who Dennis McKenna is and why he still matters
04:50 What still feels unresolved after 50 years
06:15 Co-optation, capitalism, and indigenous knowledge
09:00 The ESPD symposia and preserving ancestral knowledge
12:40 Biognosis and digitizing Amazonian herbarium archives
17:00 Why preserving knowledge matters more than artifacts
18:35 The first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV
22:45 Behavioral change, alcoholism, and community support
24:40 Serotonin transporter findings and biological mechanisms
27:30 Neuroplasticity and long-term structural change
31:00 Microdosing vs macro experiences
33:20 Default mode network and stepping outside the self
36:20 Separation from nature and cultural disconnection
38:30 Technology, AI, and cultural fragmentation
42:20 What real reciprocity might look like
46:50 Avoiding cultural appropriation and extraction
50:00 Psychedelics entering clinical models
52:45 Mushrooms as ideal symbiotic partners
56:00 Future of psychedelics in 10 years
01:00:20 Ibogaine as global brain reset
01:04:00 Evolution, partnership, and species symbiosis
01:06:00 Closing thoughts
 Thanks to Dylđź‘˝Alien for the music!Â
DIVERGENTS10
Zendo Project
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10
Follow and subscribe!
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, and our Heroic Doser Lucy on Patreon!
Use our code to get 10% off of Zendo Sit Training
DIVERGENTS10
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.