Dr. Anne Wagner on Relational Healing - MDMA, PTSD, and the Power of Two

What if healing didn’t have to be a solo journey?

In this episode of Divergent States, host 3L1T3 sits down with Dr. Anne Wagner, clinical psychologist, researcher, and founder of the Remedy Centre in Toronto, to explore how MDMA-assisted psychotherapy is transforming PTSD treatment by working with couples, not just individuals. From groundbreaking clinical trials to the lived reality of dyadic integration, Anne shares what she’s learning at the cutting edge of relational healing.

This conversation goes deep: into trauma, intimacy, conflict, neurodivergence, and how thinking "psychedelically" may just change everything, even outside the medicine space.

🎧 Plus: updates from Psychedelic Science 2025, upcoming guests like Leonard Pickard and Reggie Watts, and why the future of therapy might come in pairs.

🔑 Key Takeaways:

• Couples Therapy with MDMA is groundbreaking: 5 of 6 couples in the pilot no longer met PTSD criteria.
• Dyadic healing is multidimensional: it's not just about one partner’s trauma but transforming the relationship itself.
• Integration as a couple is complex, but powerful: shared experiences provide a unique scaffolding for long-term growth.
• CPT + MDMA shows promise: combining established PTSD therapies with psychedelic medicine could reshape treatment models.
• Ethical training is non-negotiable: Anne cautions against unqualified practitioners marketing “psychedelic couples therapy.”
• Neurodivergence and CPTSD are viable focuses: MDMA appears uniquely helpful for communication and emotional access.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 – Intro & Conference Check-In
 04:22 – Meet Dr. Anne Wagner
 04:38 – Misunderstandings About MDMA Therapy
 07:13 – Empathy and Connection on MDMA
 09:05 – Pilot Study Results from MDMA + CBCT
 14:08 – Unexpected Dyadic Challenges
 16:31 – Why Couples Therapy vs Solo MDMA Work
 20:09 – Shifting Toward CPT + MDMA
 24:18 – Preview of Anne’s Panels at PS25
 28:57 – Defining Integration for Couples
 32:35 – Will Dyadic Integration Become Its Own Field?
 34:52 – Power Dynamics, Communication & Conflict on MDMA
 37:22 – MDMA, Neurodivergence, and CPTSD
 40:38 – Future of MDMA in General Relationship Work
 42:13 – Ethical Guardrails for Psychedelic Couples Therapy
 44:50 – Risks of Untrained Psychedelic Facilitators
 45:44 – Training Models for Dyadic Psychedelic Therapists
 47:20 – Access, Regulation & Stigma Barriers
 49:20 – Anne’s Origin Story: Psychedelics, Trauma & Relationships
 51:23 – Most Unexpected Lesson from the Work
 53:09 – How to Connect with Remedy Centre
 54:02 – Final Thoughts & Psychedelic Science Plans
 59:09 – Outro: PTSD Breakthroughs & Upcoming Guests

Music by Flintwick

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