Not a Current Events Show

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike (00:03):
So you got blood drawn. How was that?

Josh (00:10):
I feel like this whole situation, this literal problematic moment, is so representative of this week, if not the past couple weeks in a week.
So I'm going to walk you through it, basically. I got up this morning, went out to run some errands, saw that the neighborhood church is doing a blood drive with the Red Cross today. It's been about six years since I donated. I thought, you know what? I'm going to go out. I'm going to do a good thing. That's going to be easy. It's going to make me feel good. It's easy enough to do because they're literally, like, right around the block. I can find the time for it. It's not going to take that long. It'll have an impact.

(01:00):
I've got an easy schedule today. I can fit it in. Great. So over lunch I walk over and they're like, we can't take you in right now. We've got too many people. Can you make an appointment online and come back? Sure. I can do that. It's an added step for me. Whatever. Go to Olivia's office, hang out, come back for the blood drive, and we're good. So we're not good because I come back, I get checked in, go through all of the forms and answer all the questions that I answered in the app because that makes sense to do a second time and then I go and get the blood draw and they've got trouble finding the vein happens whatever so I get stuck with a needle two or three times as they're trying to find the vein and then they say that I've clotted too quickly so I can't donate blood they're like are you willing to let us try and poke the vein again to get blood flowing we're just not getting flow Sure, I'm here. I've been waiting. I've set out to do this thing with the best of intentions. We're gonna make it happen. So I go through a couple more people. At this point, like, six people are standing around trying to figure out how to get blood out of me, and I'm feeling lightheaded because I've got six people standing around me. I'm a paranoid hypochondriac, so, like, I'm worried I'm bleeding out onto the floor and nobody's telling me. Who knows what the fuck is going on?

(02:30):
Somebody new is they're trying to draw blood. They've stuck me a bunch of times. They're like, you're going to have a lot of bruising, but if you're committed to this, we'll try and make it happen. And finally, we just get to the point where like, I'm in pain. I'm lightheaded. They're frustrated. It's just not going to happen. And they look at the machine and whoever set me up initially had paused the machine. So I was not clotting. They just didn't do the I went through a bunch of additional steps getting stabbed. And they finally unplugged the machine from me, which takes a while, and there's complications with that. And they're like, well, you know, you were probably going to clot anyway, so this was probably going to be the result. And then they take the gauze off, and I just start profusely bleeding out of my arm. And they're like, oh, interesting. So it was definitely the machine. It was not a you problem. I'm like, great.

(03:29):
So I sit down, I drink my little juice box, I do not faint, and I get up and I come home, having had the best of intentions, got stabbed multiple times, donated no blood, but I had just enough blood hit the bag that they would not tap the other arm, and I can now not donate for 60 days.

(03:59):
because now I've got gauze and stuff all over my arm. It's so representative of how I've felt with both the not current event situation, the job situation. I was so set on doing the thing. In theory, it was going to be really straightforward. And then time after time, there's just these weird complications that keep coming up. I'm getting screwed and in pain.

Mike (04:00):
Yeah.

Josh (04:29):
and disappointed. I got close to doing the thing I set out to do, and yet so far... And now I'm just home with my arm wrapped and in pain and no blood given. And not really a clear path forward without just waiting. So that's where I'm at, Michael.

Mike (04:49):
All right, I think we do. All right, it's a current events show. This is a current events episode.
We are recording to date it November 15th. So it's been a week and a half since the election. It has been over a month since we have talked, which means that like this morning we had to like throw out the rundown that we had been building for the last month's one. Why do we not record something came out? Whatever. It doesn't. It was over a month ago.

Josh (05:10):
It's also been over a month since you talked last. Mm-hmm. I don't know.

Mike (05:30):
during the Biden administration. The. Yeah. So. In addition, you experienced the election overseas. So I do have questions about like how that was covered over there. But we get to that eventually. Let's start with this. How are you? Everything OK? Yeah.

Josh (05:48):
Yeah.
But I'm trying to figure out what the work looks like. And there's a lot of layers to that to get into. But I left the country the 1st of November. Having submitted my ballot, having done all I can, walking away. 4 o'clock the day before I flew out, I interviewed for a new job that I was certain I was going to take when I came back.

(06:29):
And then I landed and the world has shifted. And I've been working nonstop since then, so I've really not processed the full gravity of everything. But I'm trying to settle with it.

Mike (06:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think this does go back to my whole thing asking you about, like, how do you handle when the plans change, right?

(06:58):
You left having a lot of plans. This whole thing set up. And a lot of your plans were sort of hinging on, we're going to Europe, and then after Europe, we're going to do a bunch of stuff. And now, like, you have returned to an unsettled world. So I am curious that you're, and I'm, it sounds like you're okay-ish. Like, you're not falling apart? Yeah. But, like, the ground underneath of your feet has shifted.

Josh (07:18):
No. Yeah. Yes.

Mike (07:28):
And I think we can take that in. I find playing sort of the shrink in this situation, asking you questions, helping you work through things. I have had a week and a half of trying to figure it out myself with nothing, no Spanish cuisine to tide me over and keep me comfortable.

(07:59):
Okay. Mm-hmm.

Josh (08:29):
Also with you being in a slightly different life context than I am. So let's start with you. What was your kind of immediate reaction when things kind of became clear?

Mike (08:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
So I.

(08:52):
For.

(09:24):
Talked to them on a reasonable time. And like, there's some cultural references I can make. It was fun. I had a good, really good time calling. And that helped turn me into it's still a bit of a toss up, but I think she might have it in the bag. So I spent the last probably three to four weeks before the election, probably three, going, I think she has it. But it's still, it's gonna be close, right? Like, there, Mhm.

(09:54):
This is not a sure thing. So you would think I would plan for the situation we're in now in some way, and I just didn't. And I think that really doesn't come down to me not wanting to plan for this. But the work at the time in my head was we just need to make it to election day. After that, we'll figure it out from there.

(10:24):
And now we're after that and we're figuring it out. I think for me, I think this is going to be bad. But I also am not as despondent as I was in 2016. I am not as freaked out.

(10:54):
I had a coworker in 2016 who was a Trump guy. And the day after election day, we were chatting. He was like my mentor at the job at the time. He was a nice guy, but you know, a little, he would be an RFK voter this year, I think. But he was like, oh, are you, how, like, you know, trying to be a little, you know, get, uh, Fuck the libs in a way when we were talking and I was like honestly I wish him the best I hope he does the best he can you know he's our president we're gonna he won like obviously I'm gonna respect that I'm still having those feelings I like I'm like I'm hoping he's not gonna you know do something but like I know better I know he's gonna be fucking crazy so I am in the present Resting. I have sort of stepped away from some of my news consumption. I've stepped away from social media mostly. I've just need to recharge because it did not hit me until like this week that I was like, oh, remember when?

Josh (11:55):
Mm-hmm.

Mike (12:20):
Every day was a scandal and it was a different one. Every day. Like that's going to happen again. We're just and like we're already kind of in it like with with the cabinet appointments that are coming out. We're already in like the it's crazy. But I'm not. I just don't know how to handle that right now and I know I can't handle it. So I am not handling it. I have given myself permission not to. I did. I read a thing. Earlier this week.

Josh (12:29):
Yeah.

Mike (12:50):
by some reporter. I can't remember her name. I'll find the link for your show notes. KotQ linked it, I think, yesterday. From a reporter who said that she is going to stop reading. She's not going to stop reading the news. She's going to stop reading people's takes on the news, which is all that Twitter was. And the headline culture is you're reading other people's takes on what Yeah.

(13:21):
what's going on you're not reading what's going on so she subscribed to an actual physical newspaper i'm not going to subscribe to an actual physical newspaper already i'm subscribed to one it's called the onion you can get it every month um it's worth i think it's like 50 bucks a year and like you get a physical copy of the onion every month that's awesome uh it makes me giggle all the time uh i i might reset i was subscribed to the economist for a little bit uh which i wasn't reading a ton of Yeah.

(13:48):
But it was nice to get like a weekly summary of what happened. I. And then I'm going to trust like I have some friends that are going to fucking eat the news as much as they can. And I'm going to trust them for like the things that, hey, we need to do something about this today. I have a feeling like there's a lot of stuff where we don't have to do anything today. Like the news comes out and it's like, OK.

(14:18):
If you read that news on Saturday, let's say something happened on a Tuesday, you read it on Saturday, I think you're going to be just as informed. In fact, you'll probably be more informed because there will have been time to process it. So I want to figure out how to have news still in my life, but not constant. I have deleted all of the social media from my phone.

Josh (14:40):
Yeah. Oh, wow.

Mike (14:48):
And I have deactivated my Twitter. The only social media to sell my phone is Discord. And that's getting close to going away. But and I had to install Instagram last night to like talk to some people. I have a one I have one group that is like exclusively an Instagram like DM group. So I checked out my computer. But I was out walking last night and I had to like read something from them. And I had to reinstall Instagram, which then this morning I had Instagram sell my phone and I was fucking.

Josh (15:02):
Yeah.

Mike (15:18):
and sat in bed for an hour scrolling reels because I'm an addict and I need to get it. I'm jumping all over the place. I'm sorry, guys. Yeah, the I am addicted to social media in some ways. I'm addicted to feeds, but I don't crave them. Right. It's just when they're there, that's all I'm going to do for a while. But if I if I don't have it, it's like I'm not itching for it.

Josh (15:29):
You're good. This is good. You're processing. Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. I...

Mike (15:48):
Most of the time. Uh. Mm-hmm. Ugh. Yeah. But if there's a tube of Pringles in the house, there's not a tube of Pringles in the house. It makes it ten minutes. Yeah.

Josh (15:59):
for a food analogy with that, Pringles are very similar for me. Right? Like, I don't necessarily crave Pringles. It's gonna be gone. Right. Yeah. My rule has essentially become whenever I'm traveling for work, I'm allowed to get a can of Pringles if I'm doing an overnight. Outside of that, no. They do not enter the house because they cannot last.

Mike (16:18):
Yeah.

Josh (16:59):
with it. Right? In the sense of both, you're not going to reach the bottom of the feed ever. And the stuff that you're getting out of it, by and large, there's no action to take. You did. They were very good.

Mike (17:08):
Yeah.
So I'm like working on an essay that I put on the blog. Oh, the other thing I did is I wrote to make bad ideas and put them out there and like to combat that is wildly expensive right like uh the the price of investigating a good news story has not gone down i think ever the price to put a bad news story up has gone down to zero right like you can put whatever you want out there so um what's the like you how do you compete you can't um so i have that but then Yeah.

Josh (18:32):
Mmhm.

Mike (18:48):
And it gives the same in the moment satisfaction, if not more satisfaction, but long-term or value is zero. So like it's, it's empty calories. But God, do I fucking love an Oreo? Like so many little goldfish. So yeah. So I have to figure out something to replace all of that with. I'm still thinking through it. But I think that's going to come down to, Yeah. Yep.

(19:18):
people and making stuff. Not making content. I don't make content. I just want to make things. So that's kind of the plan for now. We'll see how it goes. But yeah. Questions, comments, or concerns?

Josh (19:29):
Yeah.
I've got a lot there.

(19:51):
First off, I'm going to recommend a book.

Mike (19:52):
I just said I can't read those. Okay. All right, let me write that down. New.

Josh (19:54):
Because I think the ideas that you're playing with, You can read books. You can figure that out. It's a book from 1985. Get the 2005 re-release with the intro from The Sun. But it's Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death. It's very much kind of, and again, it's a book from 1985, but talking about kind of the introduction of 24-hour television news and how that was going to be a movie.

(20:28):
to the public's detriment. No. Okay. Yeah.

Mike (20:33):
Have you seen the movie Network? Oh, okay. That's in a movie assignment. I haven't watched it in probably about a year, but I think it's about like and TV. But it's similar themes. It has, I think, one of the best monologues in any movie. Two of the best monologues? But yeah, it's still good. Okay. Okay.

(21:18):
Didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Did you delete the account? Deleted the app? Oh, I can't do that.

(21:52):
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Josh (21:58):
One is not valuable. It's the short, quick, cheap calories. But two, so much of it is also artificial or resurfaced artificially. There's just this economy on there now that doesn't serve the end. So I nuked it. A few weeks prior to the election, when Elon Musk got on stage with Trump, I got rid of my Twitter account too. Not deactivated.

Mike (22:22):
Yeah, my Twittercast is in the... Yeah. I'm in the... There's like a 30-day window of the deactivated delete. I'm in that window right now. I deleted it the day after...

Josh (22:29):
deleted. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I hit as well. I've got Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn still. I'm trying to figure out what there I can sever. Because as you hit on, there are valuable communication networks there. Right? Like, there's contacts there that I can't access.

Mike (22:52):
Yeah, but... No.

Josh (22:58):
as easily another way, or that I wouldn't think to. And I'm struggling personally with, are these relationships that I let go? Or what? Like, I don't post on Facebook. But Olivia will post on Facebook and tag me, so that, like, my family and my coworkers and anybody else that's looped into that network sees, like, what we've been up to, because I don't want to put the effort in to do it.

Mike (23:22):
Yes. Yes.

Josh (23:28):
But I feel like there's still value in putting that out there in a way that is still siloed to some extent versus like just pure log. But I've gotten rid of access to those on the iPad and on the phone, so really I can only access it on the computer. I'm in a similar place with Discord too. And that is just, it's such a hard thing to, Mm-hmm. No. Yeah.

(23:58):
let go of because I don't want to leave the community right that negates the value but I want to disconnect thoughtfully and I need to figure out what that looks like and obviously there's layers there right I'm a mod in our community I need to have some instant access and oversight in very rare occasions but how does that like Yeah.

(24:28):
work. So I'm working through that mentally. In terms of news consumption, I want to go back to long form. I'm sick of these articles. I'm sick of the monetization. I'm sick of my anxiety being capitalized on. And we've been through this for four years already. We know how bad it gets. In one, it's just information.

(24:58):
Overload and Static. But I feel like that's also part of the intent. Right? It's to overwhelm. It's to discourage so that we can't have meaningful action and we get desensitized. And I don't want that. One of the things that I'm going to try out, we've got a library just a couple blocks from here. I think I'm going to start reading like The Economist or New Yorker or Yeah.

(25:28):
some magazine on a reoccurring basis by walking down to the library and just sitting with a cup of coffee and going through the physical copy in that space. Because there's an intentionality there and a separation where, like, I can't get too far down a rabbit hole? And I think part of what this election means for me is finding ways to be more grounded in my immediate community.

Mike (25:44):
Yeah.

(26:22):
Yes. Yeah, right.

(26:46):
How many times can Nancy Pelosi text me asking for $20 and not then deliver? I think I did about 10 hours of phone banking over the last three weeks. It was good. I felt good about it. But it didn't matter. It didn't actually change anything.

Josh (27:25):
No. I think that...
Yeah.

(27:58):
No, but it's gonna be better than where we're at. But that's also not enough. Yeah.

Mike (28:16):
or like uh because of anything is why we lost like we it's not it's too early to tell what actually happened and like there's nothing to do uh but she did do better in the swing states than she did Right. Yeah. Yeah.
in other states right like she she gained more ground in the swing states than she lost in like fucking New Jersey slipped crazy. And I think what that means to me is that we can't be just focusing on seven states. We do have to think about all of them. We have to be sending the messaging out to everywhere. We have to be doing things in every state, every city, every community has to be like pushing the agenda and showing the show the fucking work. And it it's so And I thought I wasn't angry anymore, but apparently I still am. Yeah, the Obama-era Democratic Party is not functional anymore.

Josh (29:14):
Yeah. I agree with a lot of that. I think a lot of what I'm seeing is that the political model that the Democratic has relied on does not.

(29:39):
And I think, I mean, I've gotten, I can't tell you how many emails I've gotten asking for donations post-election after I've unsubscribed several times and they just keep coming.

Mike (29:43):
Yeah.

Josh (29:54):
But I feel like that's, it's a cheat, right? And that's the narrative that we want is like, the action that you need to take to help your country is to give $10. That's not work, right? The work is local, the work is broad, it's bipartisan, it's nonpartisan, it's community-oriented.

Mike (30:10):
No. Yeah, sure. As long as we describe what it is for the audio listeners.

Josh (30:23):
One of the things that I wanted to share with you, and I might share my screen for this if that's allowable. Yeah, of course. So I've got... Oh, it doesn't look like it went. Maybe it doesn't want me to share. What do we got? Okay, you got it? Nope.

Mike (30:40):
No, it popped up and then disappeared for a sec. Watch the stream. There we go. Yeah, it's the Wikipedia page. Oh, nope. NBC News, North Carolina. Cool. North Carolina election results by county. It's the map. Yeah. For the presidential election of 24. Yeah. 2.7.

Josh (30:53):
Yeah.
For the presidential election, right?
Right.
Donald Trump, almost 2.9 million.
Harris, 2.7 million.

Mike (31:10):
Yeah. Jill Stein, 24,000. Yeah. I wouldn't. North Carolina is. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (31:13):
Looking at the gubernatorial election, and obviously they're an outlier because of the scandal that happened.

Mike (31:43):
Yeah. Had 2.8.

Josh (31:52):
more people showed up and voted for the democrat for governor than voted for donald trump to be president in north carolina there's been some narrative around um i think what they've coined uh bullet ballots Yeah. Yeah. Which. All right. Sure. If. And if that's the case. He did it better. Like. Why are we not doing that? Like.

(32:13):
where essentially people have shown up and just voted for trump left the rest of the ballot empty And that's kind of been this narrative of like, well, he was just good at turning out his extreme voters and nobody else. He did. Yeah, I think I disagree with some of that, though. Right? Because if he turned out more voters, he should be higher than the Democratic governor-elect.

(32:49):
in North Carolina. Because still more people showed up for the governor than they did for Trump. Which tells me that this is not going to be straightforward and we can't parse it into a simple narrative. Because there's so many complex factors here where clearly some Trump voters, a good chunk of them, voted for the Democratic governor of North Carolina.

Mike (33:13):
Yes.

Josh (33:18):
In that narrative doesn't fit easily into my brain. Yeah. I'm going to do napkin math quick.

Mike (33:23):
I think the narrative there is they're not voting for Republicans.
They're voting for Donald Trump, right? The president.
But one thing, if you could, you don't have to share the screen anymore.
But how many votes for the gubernatorial in there?
What's the difference between presidential and gubernatorial vote counts? While you look that up. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was like 5.5. So there was a 200,000 votes that weren't counted. Or that didn't.

Josh (33:48):
It looks like, let's say, 5.3 million for governor total. And then on the Democrat side, 5.5 sounds right? 5.6? No. No, no, no. That voted for governor and didn't vote for president.

Mike (34:10):
I voted for president, but didn't vote for governor. Right. Oh. Was higher. That's crazy. All right. I didn't realize that. Mm hmm. Yes.

Josh (34:18):
was higher than the voter turnout for president. Right? And that's why I'm saying, like, the bullet ballot narrative only goes so far here. And I think it's trying to take a very complex situation and shove it down into a narrative that we can easily understand, because that's what we want. But it comes down to the fact, for me, that this is not an electorate that either party No. No, no, no, no, no. It is an electorate that is, I would say, mostly disengaged from federal politics or like from presidential. Right. Like the. The approval ratings for everybody is so fucking low has been, I think, my entire life. Basically, the approval ratings for everybody.

(34:48):
is fully built to capture. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (35:10):
The approval rating for Congress has been low. There's a lot of problems facing, like big problems facing the country that are just not getting addressed. And they're very simple narratives. Yeah. And I think the thing, though, is that I don't think we've ever, like, Yeah.

Josh (35:24):
And that are being reduced to very simple narratives.
And we have people that are not able to do the work because they're not interested in exploring the complex narrative.

(35:44):
Yeah.
Yeah. No, I think there's been a general decline in both civic action and civic literacy. And I, as an individual, am not going to change that. But I can change what I work on and what I consume and what I attribute to either systemically oriented. And that's kind of where I'm at post-election is really trying to dial back and figure Oh, for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

(36:31):
What's the work I need to do? And for me at the moment, it revolves around my individual relationships and my broader... Yeah.

(37:05):
Mm-hmm.

Mike (37:10):
I am focusing on. Like the people around me. I like friends. I haven't talked to him like a couple months that I really should. And like doing all of that stuff. And I think that focusing on that. Is going to be good for me. And it's going to be good for those people. I think if I spent that same energy. And focused it on.

(37:40):
Paying attention to the day-to-day news or seeing takes from every side. It would be bad for me. I would be in a worse place mentally, emotionally. And I think I... Overall, like net good of people in...

(38:10):
reach of me is worse, right? Like... So then... So why... And now I like to think about myself. So then why did I pay so much fucking attention to it in the first place? This is obvious. It's... Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Josh (38:31):
I have to immediately issue an editorial retraction on my election statements. Because I fucked my napkin math. More people voted for the presidential election than the gubernatorial. Why are you doing this? This is true. This is true. It's true.

Mike (38:40):
Oh. Oh. Obviously. By how many? Because you're the one that said the wrong thing. I'll fix it in post. Okay. Which is enough.

Josh (39:02):
350,000 more people voted for president than governor. But still, more people voted for the Democrat than Donald Trump. Yeah. North Carolina, yeah.

Mike (39:11):
to, right? But that's also like, yeah, because they didn't want to vote for the nude Africa guy. Like, South Carolina was the wrong North Carolina, right? Yeah, wrong. Like, it'd be more interesting to then look at like the Senate election in Arizona.

Josh (39:35):
Yeah.

Mike (39:40):
Right. But like which we don't have to do. Uh. I but. Not a current event show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh. I should go back to his book at some point. Uh. The. Um. But yeah like. If the goal is to. I think that's the big thing. Like what is my goal in. Um. Civic life in.

Josh (39:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, this is not a current event show. We are not 538, fucking Nate Silver being right. All the bullshit.
Yeah.

Mike (40:10):
in current events life, I think prior to last week, it was be informed and be right. Not in the, I know better and I am morally correct, but in I know what's going to happen, have a pulse on it. And I kind of did. This is basically a toss-up.

Josh (40:24):
Yeah.
Right, have a pulse.
Yeah.

Mike (40:39):
I understood that like if one swing state went one way pretty much all of them were gonna go that way um so like that's why like I'm not surprised at all about this um but it's not but isn't oh yeah I'm disappointed um but is yeah it better than if it was you know contested Yeah. I'm not either. I'm disappointed. Right? But this is also... it's clean in a way that is also... good.

Josh (41:05):
I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (41:09):
for two weeks and then like what happened in 2020 like or or that the the electoral college one way and the popular vote with the other like at least this time we can go we lost like and like okay now what um and not go like oh we lost but we want the popular vote and so it's obviously like the game is right it's like yeah the game is rigged we've known it's been rigged like all right you know we know the rules, let's win. Right? Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Josh (41:41):
Yeah.
I think the game has to change in a lot of ways.
And I don't know that the National Democratic Party is willing to accept that.
I think some of the state parties, especially in purple states, are starting to get it.

Mike (42:12):
Mhm.

(43:12):
Mm-hmm.

Josh (43:33):
Like, that's where the attention needs to go. Because that's the impact. I'm sick of getting caught up in all of this noise. And again, feeling used and leveraged in a way that is not accomplishing things. Right? Like, if every donation email I got, if every fundraising milestone we blew past and set records on, made a difference, this would be a different story. But it doesn't work. So we need to get back to kind of basic action. And when that stuff works, find ways to roll up and increase the impact. At least for me. I'm not saying this as a broad strokes situation. But in terms of where I need to go now, it's impact.

Mike (44:20):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's...
I just don't know how you can raise billions of dollars and then have nothing to show for it. Looking at you, OpenAI. Yeah, it's... But... I don't know. I got no good news in that. There's nothing... The Onion bought InfoWars. The best thing to ever happen.

Josh (45:14):
That is delightful. I should look at subscribing to their hard copy. Take a look at that.

Mike (45:39):
because Halloween is my favorite holiday and I'm sad when it's over by Barack Obama which is such a good joke uh yeah it's so good I I really do enjoy the uh the other thing that I so like I'm trying to find things that bring joy he's like even I'm sorry I am replacing big uh feeds feed based social media um reader the new reader app the REE the two E's reader uh continuing to love it uh so I'm like Yeah.

Josh (46:03):
Yeah.

Mike (46:09):
new things into there just to manage that. And a couple of the things I've added are the Daily Peanuts comic, which is very hit or miss. The Peanuts Jr., which is just cute. And then Heathcliff, which more hits than misses. Very funny when it hits. But I feel the ones that miss, it's because I'm not smart enough to get it, which I also really appreciate.

Josh (46:36):
When you say the peanuts... Right. Is this stuff that is, like, being written now? Or is it the old? Because... Okay. Because I've got some very unfortunate news for you about Charles Schultz.

Mike (46:39):
Yeah, like Snoopy.
I have no clue. I have no clue. I think it's old because it's very much like, I think they're just doing reruns.

(47:00):
Yeah, he died many years ago. Yeah, no.

Josh (47:03):
I'll keep that yeah okay yeah yeah So I think his son did it for a while too. But or his like nephew something. But I think it's old because a lot of the jokes are dated. But it is just a little piece of joy. I understand why it was in the newspapers. Just like a little piece of joy that you can. It's it's a fucking Instagram post. Like that's all that is. But you get one of them a day, which is good. And then just I guess who the rest of the little tech changes.

Mike (47:37):
I am leaning more on the play app which is like a YouTube like watch later like you could just sort of save it off there and it's good yeah ooh let's I hope it's not let me see Yeah. I don't know if this is only on my end, but your mic is getting a little funky choppy.

(48:07):
Do I sound weird now? This is, yeah. Hopefully the microphone on my side is okay. We'll see. I'm going to just turn, do something here. Advanced. I'm just going to default that. Hopefully it makes things sound a little bit better. We'll see. Sorry to anyone who's listening if things are weird.

Josh (48:10):
Yeah, you do. I think we're just gonna have to roll with it, man.

(48:32):
Do you feel like you've gotten your post-election vomit out of your system? I don't want to rant or rave.

Mike (48:37):
The. No, but I think that I've gotten enough of it for today. What do you want? You want to rant? You want to rave?

Josh (48:59):
I think I'm having a mental realignment. In addition to a lot of the stuff we've talked about, like less trash, the quarterly theme I started out with for the fall that I've not fully materialized but is also kind of falling into this moment is very much just kind of where I'm looking to take myself post-election. But it's also not just post-election.

(49:29):
It's my personal life. I've been wanting to reduce the junk content for a while. This is just amplifying that incentive. Because I'm so sick of being used for somebody else's profit and not getting any personal gain from it. And I'm ready to break that loop. I don't fully know what that looks like, but I'm motivated to do so.

(49:59):
I'm looking at too, both personally, professionally, community-oriented.
I want to be more involved in a way that I haven't, because I think my community needs it, and more so I need it.
Like I mentioned the library thing, I'm also thinking of joining the local church, which is super weird to be thinking about, but just that's the community that's here and available, and I want to cultivate that space.

(50:29):
We've talked a little bit about trying to just do the gathering thing in the past. And I'm drawing a little bit from our October note that we were supposed to. But I want to be a creator of Community. And you said something really early on in our talks about, like, it doesn't have to be the same.

(50:59):
You can just provide the space and let that community happen. We've done that a couple times. Like, there was the two friends of ours that are Olivia's coworkers that I wanted to have over. I invited them over one night and said, look, I've got Mario Kart. If you want snacks, if you want drinks, bring them. We don't know each other super well, but we're going to make the space for that to happen. It was awkward, but we had a blast.

Mike (51:18):
Yeah.

Josh (51:29):
Right? And then one of Olivia's teachers from high school just had a retirement party. So we saw a bunch of her friends from that era that I also knew because we started dating in high school. And after the official party wrapped up, I'm just like, you know, we can have people over. And like, I'll fire up Jackbox. People can stop for McDonald's if they want dinner. There's a liquor store down the road they can grab a drink at if they want. But like, we'll just open the house and have folks over.

(51:59):
I think we had 12 people in the living room. Laughed our asses off playing Jackbox, reverted back to being like 16, 17 again. Just that sort of humor. We stayed up until midnight and then were all elderly people so we crashed immediately after that and weren't willing to go past 12. But that was great. And I'm ready for more of that. And I've gotten through some of the personal anxieties.

(52:29):
of creating that space that now it's just so much easier to do again and again and again as long as my schedule allows. And that's really, I think, what this making community needs to start looking like is just opening my space for people to be together and safe and connected and have experiences that they can build their own relationships with.

Mike (52:51):
Yeah. So just for clarity, the thing I said, like, I think was, um, Hosting doesn't have to be about a thing. You can just have people over. I haven't done that in a while. I had some friends over at my parents' house the other week, which was nice. I think I'm going to do that again tonight, actually, after we're done.

(53:39):
Yeah, having friends is good. I don't remember where I read this post-election, but having the people that are the most politically engaged online are also the people who are the least socially I don't think you read that online. I think I told you that on our last call. Because I just read that in, um... Oh, I think it's David Brooks's book that I'm still reading. Um...

(54:06):
engaged in their real life. Uh. I think I read it on the internet because I don't think I heard it from you. But either way, so we both have the same idea in our head, which is great. And like. I told this to like a mom.

Josh (54:29):
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (54:36):
One of my poetry friend guys. And it. He was like, what do you mean? Like the people that are like, that's the the engagement is the like, like posting on your Instagram story about like Gaza is is political action. I was like, kind of sure. But like, you're not doing anything like the people, which is not to say fucking college protesters are good. The encampments do whatever.

(55:05):
whatever you want I don't care but like they didn't do anything they didn't get outcome they didn't make changes and what does make the change what does make people happier and not just like oh I'm bringing joy to my my life and all that but like the thing that makes impact on people's lives is like doing the work and doing the work requires you to have other people around you to help you out so Mm.

(55:35):
Just back on fucking election stuff. But you having friends come over is great. Like that is such a good thing to do.
And it feels really really good.

Josh (55:49):
Yeah.

Mike (55:50):
Yeah.
I'm glad I'm glad it's working out for you.

Josh (55:56):
I know I need it, and I need to do more of it.

Mike (55:58):
Yeah.
And I'm sure that like the people that you had over needed it and really liked it Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's such an easy thing, right? Like, the majority of the effort is getting over my own, like, mental hiccups there, right? Like, the house does not have to be perfect.
and really enjoyed it.

Josh (56:28):
There does not have to be food. There does not have to be anything provided other than the space. And I think people need that invitation to gather too. And that does a lot. And people are thankful for that. No, I would love to. But I don't have to. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (56:35):
Mm-hmm. This is not to say you should not be feeding the people that you have come visit. Yeah, right. But you don't have to. It doesn't have to be the thing. And like, especially, like, we're so used to getting our food custom Ubered to our own homes. Like, you can just order a fucking pizza if everybody's hungry. And like, that's good. That's fine.

Josh (57:01):
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Mike (57:05):
Yeah. It's. I need to do like a Jackbox night with some friends soon, I think. And it's and it's cheap. It's free to like have people come over. Yeah. We. The. I haven't just had like a ton of time to like do that lately. You know, it's just like a ton of time.

Josh (57:31):
Yeah.

(57:59):
Yeah.

(58:28):
Yeah. My... I've still not fully fleshed out my autumn theme outside of... I don't think so, because it's very similar to Less Trash than the Conundrum I got into there, right? Where, like, you were like, no, it's just... It's less trash. Like, that's the theme. I've got... I've got the core. I just... It's all of the other systems that feed into it that I want to...

Mike (58:35):
I think it's too late to like not have it fleshed out my dude. Oh, okay. So you need me to work my match. You see me work my magic. Oh, the things you don't need. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (58:58):
want to build out. But I've still been using the mantra, if you will. And this, again, kind of comes from reading that experimental history blog. He's got a article, Surely You Can Be Serious. And he kind of starts off with this anecdote of, like, he had this vision of, like, all of the things It's true.

(59:58):
I think it's a season two from Succession where Logan Roy talks about or he tells his you know jackass children that they're not serious people right they're pretending to be serious they're not actually interested in doing the work so my autumn theme has kind of just simply been be serious You're not sick of people.

Mike (01:00:32):
That is intense. Yeah, it's about taking things seriously. Yeah.

Josh (01:00:58):
myself on whether or not I should invite people over. Right? Like, if there's a quick path to making an invite, I'm taking that. Like, I'm not, let's not get caught in the anxiety, let's not get caught in the what-ifs or the planning, let's just do it. With work stuff, I've been like, okay, what does being serious in this moment about this project look like? And I'm doing a lot more prep and being a lot more thoughtful in how I'm tackling things and making the space for me.

(01:01:28):
Same with kind of the social media reduction. Right? Like, I've just been in this loop with, like, Reddit and just scrolling on, like, this curated system that I've got built. And the system is broken. Right? Like, yes, I've got this whole, like, sunk cost fallacy, where, like, I've put so much time into, like, following these specific communities, commenting, building history. It's not working. So being serious about it, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(01:01:58):
it means nuking it. Right? Like opting out. There is not fixing it. I understand that. And if I understand that, then why am I not doing something about it? And in a weird way, it's also kind of a continuation of the less trash mindset of like just parsing down and not getting bogged down into whatever loops and other stuff there are. But I think talking about, you mentioned earlier, reducing your Instagram screen time and are trying to figure out what fills that time. What is taking up that new space that you've created? And I feel like for me, LessTrash created that space and is creating that space still. It's still something I'm thinking about and using and working through. Be Serious is starting to fill that space and help make the decisions of like, Now that there's a spot for intentionality, don't waste it. You are so fucking garbled, my guy. Like, maybe it's just on my end.

Mike (01:03:05):
That's really good. Again, I wish we had had this conversation three weeks ago. Oh, my God. All right. Pause. Pause. Pause. Yeah, wait. Can you try disconnecting from the call and reconnecting? Yeah.

Josh (01:03:27):
I can, yeah.

Mike (01:03:32):
Hi friends, this is Mike. I'm alone right now. Does that sound better? Oh, okay. Yeah. How is that? Better test? Hello? Hello? Hello? Wait, talk now? I can't hear you though. Wait, now it just came through. It just connected. Yeah, we're good.

Josh (01:03:40):
Oh my god, it's me. It's my AirPods.
That's so much better.
There we go. I just had to...
You got it?
You are so much more clear on my end. I am so sorry for making you disconnect and screw with all of your technology. Oh my god. Oh thank you thank you thank you. It looks like it. Yep we're good.

Mike (01:04:02):
I'm just gonna say that that that just added like 10 minutes of editing time uh make sure your quick time is still recording your voice please um cool yeah that should be just going off your mic uh but um it's okay the yeah so be serious as a way of uh Taking. A feeling that the less trash time is like a really good. I like that as a way of following on. Still reading that.

Josh (01:04:38):
Well, and I can't take full credit for it, right? This is very similar to what Cal Newport pitched in Digital Minimalism, right? You go through the digital detox and blah, blah, blah, and then you have all of this time, and then you need to cultivate high-value leisure.
your activities to fill that space. Well, unfortunately, I'm not good at relaxing or doing fun things. So for me, be serious is a much easier fit in my brain than like, oh, I'm going to become a serious movie critic in my hobby time. And like, that's going to be, I'm going to be a experienced, haughty hobbyist in whatever area. Because that does not work for me.

Mike (01:05:16):
Yeah.
You should still find leisure time. Right? I don't think you need to find. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Right. So like. Yeah. The.

Josh (01:05:30):
Oh yeah, I need to bring my stress levels down. That's also been a theme of like the past month and a half, even before the United States decided to vote the way it did. So I'm going to work on that too, and being serious about that is also strongly on the list. I'm like, bringing the blood pressure down.

Mike (01:05:56):
And like finding I'm in the middle of like trying to figure out how to make some more space in my life. I like ended I dropped out of one of my D&D games because I was like this I need a night. They ended up I was there like seven nights a week I was doing things and I was like I can't keep up. So I dropped one thing and then I'm gonna probably find some more.

Josh (01:06:16):
Yeah.

Mike (01:07:03):
That's sick, dude. That's so good.

(01:07:57):
Yeah.
Okay, wait. I got a thing. There is a very good D&D blog that I love a lot called TheAlexandrian.net who is very good. He wrote a very good book last year.

(01:08:24):
where I want to find this exact post so I can send it. Open table manifesto. It's about being an open table. He wrote this in 2016. And the third paragraph starts. It's called playing catch. And it's imagine that you had never heard of baseball before. And someone said, hey, want to join a baseball team?

(01:08:54):
And the other person says, well, what's that involved? You ask. Well, we practice three hours every Wednesday evening and we'll have a game every Saturday afternoon for the next seven months. You have to be like really, really curious about baseball in order to take that guy up on his offer, right? Yada, yada, yada, yada. And then he goes, of course, that's not how most people start playing baseball. Most people start playing baseball when someone says, hey, want to play catch? You want to play fucking catch? You want to be like, hey, we're just like hanging out and you can come and do the thing. And it's not a huge commitment. It's not.

Josh (01:09:19):
Yeah.

Mike (01:09:24):
or whatever, but it is anyone can come, anyone can play. You should read this because what you're describing is an open table. The other thing I would say to maybe look at is something called The West Marches, which is I think on Ars Lundi. Ars Ludi. Which is, there's a really good Matt Covill video about it.

Josh (01:09:30):
... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (01:09:54):
and this description but uh the the long thing was he had a bunch of people that he wanted to play with um but scheduling with a bunch of people is hard so instead the campaign was you were in a town you were exploring from wherever at the end of every session you return to town whoever is there for the session goes on the exploration there's also no and you have to come to me the dm and tell me where you want to go. Like what is the thing the characters want to go do? I will prep that and we will run that for a night and then you'll come home and then since all the characters are off doing all their things you can be like oh I went you know explored the temple in the jungle last week but Josh says he wants to go to the desert we're gonna go to the desert I learned something in the desert about something and I bring that home and it's like oh that connects to something.

Josh (01:10:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know you were literally jumping up and down in your chair as I was raising this topic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like it's such a good opportunity to bring some of our really cool friends together so that they can meet each other around something that we all love and that a lot of folks don't have time to do.

(01:11:28):
consistently, while also allowing people to try out different characters, have different DMs. There could be so much flexibility in that.

Mike (01:11:31):
Yeah. I want to set up a group locally because most of my play is now online. But I want to do something that's in the community that I'm in at some point. And I definitely have people that would be interested, I think. I have ideas. Things I will pitch at some point.

(01:11:54):
Yeah. People be like, hey. Two tables. Exactly. Yeah. You have two tables in your house. You're so bougie.

(01:12:24):
like a folding table from like Home Depot. Those are like and they're convenient. Yeah, it's where were we right before this? You sidetracked me with D&D. Oh, I left a D&D game on my Wednesdays. But like I'm filling that in with like poetry leadership stuff and like trying to find I got like I have projects now. I'm like maybe going to start using a project management.

Josh (01:12:27):
Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. A lot of doom and gloom. Yeah.

Mike (01:12:54):
app or like a to-do list app i will figure there that not this week um but because like i have so much stuff going on and i'm like it's not that like i'm losing track of it but um there's yeah exactly right like it is it's not like i guess kind of like be serious but it's if i can't see it Yeah.

Josh (01:13:12):
You want to be able to devote enough time and attention to what you're doing.

(01:13:51):
Yeah.
I need to get a fucking whiteboard for this office finally.

Mike (01:13:54):
Just Amazon, one of those right now. Just do it right now. Yeah, that's a really big whiteboard. Yeah, so I'm like putting my notebooks back together. I'm back on the Travelers. I'm still in the Travelers, but I'm lining things up. I have a bullet journal notebook, like the official one. I've been kind of playing with that. I don't know. There's a lot of like, Because like that's I need the 30,000 foot view of stuff.

Josh (01:14:05):
Yeah I know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I'm at, too, and beyond. Right? I skipped using my hardcover journal for the trip. I took a field notes. I spent a good chunk of yesterday putting this back together.

(01:14:47):
which is the hardcover loistrum. I'm going to retire this at the end of the year and I'm going to try shifting over to a Midori dot grid and see how that works. Well, that's what this is. This is a dot grid. Yeah, and then I bought a fucking dot grid because you're right. I need the dot grid. So now I've got a grid Midori and a dot grid.

Mike (01:14:55):
Yeah. A Dockrid? Yeah. But didn't you buy a grid? I know I'm right, my dude. So now we're... Welcome to the notebook section of the podcast, everybody. Yeah. Nice.

(01:15:24):
One of the reasons I love my travelers is because it's all Midori paper. And it's nice.

Josh (01:15:28):
Yeah. It's really nice paper. The binding is excellent, and I've gotten so frustrated with the 1917 binding that I'm ready to try something new, and I don't mind experimenting with systems.

Mike (01:16:06):
Yeah, I do want to hear about that. Oh, yeah. I...

(01:16:26):
Yeah. There's going to be no chapter markers in this. I have no idea how to do it. Sorry, guys and girls, guys, gals, and non-binary pals. The. Yeah.

(01:16:57):
Yeah, same.

Josh (01:17:17):
is like can we and maybe we need to get rid of the obtuse name that we've given ourselves but like can we schedule these a little bit more frequently and consistently so that we are running with this on a little bit more of a routine schedule yeah Yeah. It's not about the show on the show, but we should definitely do that. Yeah, it's. It is very hard, I think.

Mike (01:17:54):
to underplay how... I don't know where this is going. I was just saying words right there. I was basically an LLM. I don't know. Where do you want to go? I have a constant, a lot of stuff, right? But the... All right. I want to hear two, three...

Josh (01:17:58):
What do you want to hear about? What do you want to talk about? Do you have anything else on your mind that's like Lingering and bubbling. Yeah. No. Let's...

Mike (01:18:24):
One of two things from you right now. I want to hear either about the job thing or about Europe. And so like if you want to just get anxieties out, let's do job stuff. If you want to like stop with the pity party, let's go Europe. Don't tell me why you're picking. Just start saying words about one of the two topics. You see, you prefaced it. I didn't want to know. I just want you to start saying Oh, okay. Job thing. Um. I said job thing. I'm not telling you why I'm talking about the job thing versus the Euro trip. I'm telling you about the job thing. So I was given the opportunity to interview for a role that I was offered the same opportunity to interview for about two years ago. At the time, it didn't feel right to me.

(01:18:54):
Okay, jobs, thank God. Yeah, that's that. Tell me about the job thing. Yeah.

Josh (01:19:17):
This time around, it did. It felt like the right professional next step. It would be a move interagency in a way, so I would be kind of starting with a new employer doing very similar work, but working with the same people I currently work with. Weird bureaucratic structure situation that we don't need to get into. But I finally worked through it in my brain. I'm like, yes. I'm at least going to go for it.

(01:19:47):
Because that makes sense to do. And then we're going to figure out from there what the right path is. So put my materials together. Waited kind of anxiously for an interview to happen. Interview got scheduled for 4 p.m. the day before I left for Europe. So like I interviewed. Had a good talk with the manager. Nailed the interview I think about as good as I could have.

Mike (01:19:58):
Okay.

Josh (01:20:17):
and then laughed without knowing what the result was. But having a pretty good feeling. Over the 11 days of our trip, I went back and forth on like, well, it makes sense to do. No, it doesn't make sense to do. Yes, it makes sense to do. No, it doesn't make sense to do. And finally landed this past Monday with like, yes, I've got the clarity. I'm going to go for it. I'm going to take it. Everything's going to work out. It makes a ton of sense. It's clearly the better professional opportunity.

Mike (01:20:41):
Yeah.

Josh (01:20:47):
It should be the better compensation. Like all roads are pointing to yes. Got the offer this week. Got some other news about the organization that have pushed me back firmly into the smartest option for me is just staying put. Taking a promotion in my current role. Not rocking the boat.

(01:21:17):
And it's also weirdly become a shift in perspective from this is how I grow professionally to this is how I save myself in the event that our organization needs to shrink or change. And that's a very different perspective than I had when I left thinking, like, I'm going to take this professional opportunity, I'm going to make the most of it.

Mike (01:21:45):
Yeah.

Josh (01:21:47):
Those are two very different ways to tackle a job. Right? Because this was always clearly the safer option was to stay. But there really wasn't any looming cloud on why I should stay. Now there is kind of a clear and present danger. And it's been really weird to navigate that.

(01:22:17):
the offer I got was much lower, so really my options are to either move to the new role at a loss or make a purely lateral move, which doesn't make a lot of sense. There's some self-preservation benefits to moving, but I also have come to the understanding that there's also different self-preservation benefits to staying. And it's just been, It's been so stressful to think about this over and over again and to get ping-ponged back and forth between my own decisions and have a constantly changing stream of new information and new anxieties and new challenges to figure out. I've been very fortunate that I've had good people advocating for me to take the new role, and I've also been I'm incredibly transparent with my current manager on what my thought process has been. The fact that I've even been going for a different role and what that looks like. And having that authentic dialogue with them has been invaluable to where I'm at right now.

Mike (01:23:36):
All right, just to clarify my understanding, do you have three options in front of you? You have stay where you are, you have the lateral move, and then you have the other job that you interviewed for.

Josh (01:23:50):
No. So, yes and no. So I've got, say, at my current job and go for a promotion, which I may or may not get. I've got take the new job under a different employer. Or I've got take the new job under the same employer. Same role.

Mike (01:24:02):
Yeah. It's the same role.

Josh (01:24:17):
It's just, it's part of the weirdness on how we're organized. Yeah. Not valuable.

Mike (01:24:24):
I know more information about the looming cloud stuff. I assume you don't want to talk about that right now. Yeah. Cool. We'll cut that out. So does the taking the new position in either of those places put the does it like make the threading the looming go lower?

Josh (01:24:50):
Not... In some ways yes, in some ways no. So, if I take the job under the new employer, I'm essentially a new employee, and I can be fired without cause. Whereas if I take the new job under the same employer, I at least have roughly three years of seniority that I would carry with me into the new role. My understanding is that job is a little politically safer to hold than my current position in the sense of if they're going to eliminate roles, my current job is more likely to be eliminated than this other role.

Mike (01:25:25):
Yeah. Your role.

Josh (01:26:17):
Elimination of positions, it's elimination of people. That's my current understanding. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (01:26:20):
Okay.
So if I understand that right, you're in your current role, you have bumping rights, you're three years or whatever up. They still would eliminate your role, right? Like your position would go away. But they would eliminate other people, other people, you would stick around and get moved somewhere else. Would that like include like now you work for the DMV?

Josh (01:26:50):
To a... Yep.

Mike (01:26:54):
Like, kind of? Okay. Okay. Yeah. But, like, it's not that hard.

Josh (01:26:56):
No, it's all within our agency. It doesn't transfer across agencies. However, my classification does. So, like, say I'm an employee XYZ. DMV has employees XYZ.
I can then easily make an interagency transfer with a few steps that's not quite direct, but like, I'm an XYZ, they need an XYZ, boom boom, apply, get accepted, easy to hire because I'm already in the bureaucracy. Yeah. Yeah, but say there's an XYZ in a different department that I'm in, they eliminate that person, that role frees up, Yeah.

Mike (01:27:29):
Yeah.
And then Yeah.
Yeah.
And you move over there.

Josh (01:27:46):
They go to eliminate my position. They move me into that position.

Mike (01:27:47):
And then yeah.
Do you have Yep, and only, like, squirrels are running the show. Yep. I have a couple different kind of standing job offers that I would explore.

(01:28:24):
Exactly. What do you go do instead? Yeah.

(01:29:09):
Yeah.

Josh (01:29:15):
to land outside of my current employer. So like there's, I've got contingency plans there. Part of that contingency plan at this point is I'll be up for a senior role in my current job come March. If I jump roles and stay with the state, that clock resets until I can apply for a senior role again, which is not I've got a pretty good case right now to be promoted. In the event of bumping rights, say I'm an XYZ right now, I would become an ABC. Should they start cutting people and I get promoted, I'm against both ABCs and XYZs. So there's more positions for me to move into than just my current XYZ position. So I widen the pool of other jobs I can take.

Mike (01:30:05):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I did say West Wisconsin, The State Implodes. And we'll bleep the name of the state just because I'm still a little cautious on all of that unidentifiable stuff. Yeah. It is funny. You can keep that if you want. Should the employer implode, I'll have a higher salary and a senior title. And I feel like that's better for me to make a transfer externally anyway. Because I can say this is what I was making at my last employer.
which I think is funny. Yeah.

Josh (01:30:45):
I had a senior title that makes me a more competitive applicant against all of the other people that are moving out looking for jobs with similar experience because I've at least got the title bump. It feels like the compensation case is better if I just stay put.

Mike (01:30:54):
Yeah, I... Uh... Yeah, the security also feels better if you stay put. So then you stay put. The stress is gone.

Josh (01:31:15):
I'm telling the security also feels better staying put. Right? That's where I'm at. Yeah, the stress is not gone. But. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I just, it's part of the stress of like pruning the timelines.

Mike (01:31:24):
The stress should be gone. You have, hey Josh, you seriously made a decision. You made it. It's over. Why are you stressing about it? There's no more actions for you to take. Yeah.

(01:31:57):
So much.

Josh (01:32:15):
But I feel like in this case it's become a lot more simple than it initially was where there was a lot of gray before. There's still a little bit but it's mostly black and white and pretty clear at this point.

Mike (01:32:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Is a lot of. Sort of side different. Not. Semi related. Is a lot of like this. Change this like. New information that you have received. Since you returned. From. Europe. Is that related to. Election outcome. Okay.

Josh (01:32:51):
Yes and no. Some of this was always going to happen. The chance of us getting bailed out of it has been reduced by the election outcome. We've got a mix of federal and state dollars that are going to be drying up. The state election Yeah.

(01:33:15):
have caused one of our chambers to shift. They'll have different priorities. Obviously, federal priorities are going to shift massively, and I don't see a whole lot of programming money from the feds coming to state governments in the near future, and that's across the board regardless of what you're in. It's just I don't think this administration is going to be looking to do a whole lot of programming.

Mike (01:33:39):
Yeah.

Josh (01:33:45):
But regardless, it's definitely not predictable.

Mike (01:33:54):
I think I I've never been in a situation where like not taking the new job doesn't make sense compensation wise right I've always I've once gone down in salary but that was during COVID and I didn't have another job so it was it was above zero uh the and like insurance is insurance I'm not on public Yeah. Yeah.

(01:34:25):
benefits, right? I have to pay for it. I do... I'm trying to figure out how to best map it into my own head. I had to do it with shares and RSUs and all that stuff, which all suck. And I just treat a zero, right? Because I work at startups and if they blow up, they blow up. If they don't, which is way more likely, it's zero.

Josh (01:34:27):
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (01:34:54):
So I haven't had to do as much analysis as you, but I also, again, thinking about how you plan your whole thing, like you're just adding so much stress into your life right now. Right? That, okay, if, all right, between the, let's not go to the highest end of your predictions or the lowest end, right, you said you had five sort of mapped out.

Josh (01:35:03):
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (01:35:23):
Number two and four. In your life, in five years from now, roughly, what is the stress difference between those points? And is it bigger than the stress than you are feeling about it right now? No. So you're stressing yourself out now over like a future thing. Yeah.

Josh (01:35:41):
No. No. Yeah. It's my... Okay, here's the other thing. My analytical side and my gut are often...

Mike (01:35:57):
What often wins? Yeah. So like you're you were doing a lot of work and putting in a lot of emotional doing the analysis is not serious.

Josh (01:35:59):
My gut.
Yeah.

Mike (01:36:23):
Right? Sometimes it is. I'm not saying you should be like, if you have that sense that you should eat the deviled egg on the windowsill, don't do that. Analyze that. But doing hours upon hours upon hours of modeling and predicting and laying things out so that way you feel a little bit of sense of comfort right now, Yeah.

Josh (01:36:26):
Sometimes it is.
Yeah.

(01:36:53):
Yeah, it's a fruitless exercise long-term.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I always... Olivia yells at me for this, but I always have this looming fear of, like, getting fired.

Mike (01:37:23):
Having been fired twice, it's fine. You'll figure it out. And that's why I asked, hey, in case the state of implodes, you'll figure it out. You should stay put.

Josh (01:37:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've got... I'll find another way. Yeah. And I think my next year in this job should I stay put, which I think is the plan. I've got the promotion locked, I think, as much as I can. Right? Like, the cloaked people over the place.

Mike (01:37:53):
Yeah. Yep. And like. And.

(01:38:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like you don't need to be. It's good. It's good to have connections. It's good to be able to like.

Josh (01:38:29):
everything I can over this next year to one, do the best work I'm capable of and have the most impact I can, and two, start building those life rafts and those connections in case I need them. Yeah. I mean, connections for the sake of connection is also valuable, and that's kind of a theme that we keep coming back to. But it's, I don't, I don't see a situation where a connection is ever just a connection. Right? Like, there's always benefit in addition to the fact that the connection is the benefit in and of itself. There's always more yield there. Yeah, I don't like that at all.

Mike (01:39:09):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're, I think, good at juicing that orange.
I don't know if I like that but we're gonna stick with it um but like you you and like this is not to me like oh you can you're really good at using people but like you're you're good at finding opportunity right uh Yeah. Part of a future episode, I'm having a lot of re-visioning, or I guess perceiving and understanding how My perceptions of myself are not equivalent to how other people perceive. And I get caught in an anxiety loop of like, well, I'm very introverted. That comes across as being very closed off and like just quiet and anxious and unprofessional. And I'm finding more and more that that narrative I've held about myself for damn close to 28 years.

Josh (01:40:29):
is not how other people perceive me. It's just we have so few interactions where people are explicit on what they think of you. Or I've not been willing to listen to that when it's been made explicit. So that's also another area of personal growth.

Mike (01:40:36):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I. Have.
I actually don't think I'm introverted. I think I'm actually like moderately extroverted. Right. And that's not to say like I need to get away from people all the time. Like I'm like I need to take I need to take 20 minutes and just like chill out. And I always thought that that was the thing. Like that's the that's the introversion. I feel better when I'm away from people.

Josh (01:40:59):
Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, oh yeah.

Mike (01:41:23):
I actually feel better when I'm listening to people. I think that's like maybe this is wrong. I'm projecting my own experience on to more people than just me. But I think that's actually more common than most people let on. We are a social species and being social is good.

Josh (01:41:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're wired for.

Mike (01:41:53):
Exactly. And I think... Actually, this is something I would love to do a little research on. But when did introversion and extroversion enter pop culture? Because it has to have come from some social scientist somewhere or a psychologist. And then at some point, somebody started talking about it in...

Josh (01:42:02):
Like the lexicon? Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (01:42:24):
public whatever like the I don't know and like it does has have we just turned it into like I like being friends with people on the internet versus I like being friends with people on the the planet like they're in the real world like is that what because I think people like being friends with people and I think people have fewer friends than they they think they I think people have fewer friends than they think they Mm-hmm.

(01:42:53):
I think they have fewer friends than most other people have. Right? Like people see other people with more people. That's a fucking bad sentence. Social media makes it look like people are more popular than they are. Right? Yes. Yes. Where actually I think most people have.

Josh (01:43:10):
Yeah, it's a plague. We know this for so many reasons. But it also really screws with your perception of the world.

Mike (01:43:23):
A handful. To. A small gathering. They have enough friends that they could sit them all down at one big dinner table. Like. That. And like. And in. In like a good way. Like not in. You know. I probably know 100. 200 people like. And like I can talk to them. But like it's not. The people I would like to hang out with all the time. And I think.

Josh (01:43:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's...

(01:43:53):
I don't want to misspeak on the stat, but I read it recently, Yeah. Yeah. And those are the people that post on Twitter about political shit. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Which. I think growing your little group and fostering it growing, not just in like numbers, And just the number of people who say that they have no close friends has skyrocketed. It is, yeah. It's a correlation, weirdly enough. Legitimately. Yeah.

Mike (01:44:23):
but in like the the quality of it uh is good um and i it's like one of the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And people for whatever reason want to listen to this shit, but we love them for it. Uh-huh.
reasons i love this is like it is the two of us strengthening the thing we do like between each other and then strengthening each other um it is growing the group and then and then we record and share it with all our friends i'm like oh yay um yeah let me go grab some chips for i'm gonna do a little crunch The. But yeah. So like when. And like. That's a. Going back to you. Realizing things about yourself. Like that's the thing. That I'm learning about myself. I think. Oh my God. My fucking. I'm 30. That my. My 30s. I think are going to be. Like this. Fucking rediscovery. Of who I am. And redefinition of it. Because like I. I am.

(01:45:21):
I am both very different at the end of this year than I had than how I started it. But I also think I didn't change at all. Like I think it's more that my perception of myself has been modified. And yeah. And I think that that perception that's the thing that's changing me is like I am better aware of who I am and that is feeding into myself.

Josh (01:45:31):
Yeah. Yeah. I hear that. I see that. And I also feel that in myself, too. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (01:45:51):
A nice little feedback loop there. Yeah.

(01:46:51):
Oh, I, that's part of my essay that I'm writing. It's like this whole thing about like, we are, we are becoming a post-literate society again, or really a pre-literate society. We are, we are an unliterate society. Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:46:58):
Orality versus the written word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, we need to link that because that was such a great piece, especially politically, but also thinking about how people are wired and what we're wired for.

(01:47:28):
and the difference between speaking and writing and reading transcripts of speaking. And we've been doing all of that, right? Like we've been listening to our recordings, we've been going through the transcripts and seeing where it flows, where it doesn't. Information also sticks differently when you hear it. Especially in conversations like this and getting the opportunity to revisit those conversations and really parse out the way that you're listening to.

Mike (01:47:48):
Yeah.

(01:48:36):
Yeah. I have noticed myself in meetings at work, I'm doing a lot more like one-on-ones with people.
take that break for a second and be like let me think about what I'm about to say I don't need to immediately respond to hold my position to go I need to start talking now so I can maintain the talking stick exactly which I feel personally like I don't do a great job on these calls I feel like I do okay but there's a Yeah. Listening to understand, not listening. You're excellent from my end of it.

(01:49:21):
a lot of times where I take what you said and then turn it into something where I want to talk about something else a little bit, which is fine. And I don't start the talking about that. Yes. Exactly. And this is the self-conscious shit in my head that we are working through, is where do we That's great. That's the evolution of conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

(01:49:51):
We. Where do I transition a topic away in a conversation? Because I honestly like this is I think one of the very few times in my general experience where I'm having a we are I believe it now over two hour conversation with a single human being and just talking about stuff. And so that is a skill I am learning how to do.

Josh (01:50:01):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(01:50:31):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we don't make a whole lot of time to cultivate that. I think we're wired for it. I really do. I think that we are wired for deep conversation. And I say that because I think we yearn for it in a way that is almost primal, right? We want to be So I'll send you both of those to kind of parse over. But it's been really good to read the Brooks book on conversations while also actively practicing it here. And I think I want to go back probably at the end of this year and just listen to all of our conversations back to back to back. Because I feel like we'll see that evolution as we've kind of cultivated that space and practiced it. You mentioned kind of shifting conversations.

(01:51:58):
and topics to other places. The one thing that I don't think you acknowledge in that is you're so good at making me feel heard. Pausing, rephrasing to understand is huge in that acknowledgement. Regardless of where you take the conversation after that point, telling somebody authentically that you hear them and understand them, or at least trying to understand them, is not something we do. Especially in short form media. And I don't even know how much. There's so many limitations to text-based media too. Where that connection of I hear you, I see you, and I'm trying to understand you happens. And it's so fortunate that we have this space to cultivate that.

Mike (01:52:48):
Yeah.
It is I think the thing that is getting to me a little bit I'm going to stay in my personal life and just keep talking about myself Is that like this is only one of the only places that I do that really well, I think Okay.

(01:53:15):
Sometimes Okay.
I'm dating the girl who does not want me to use her name on the show which is fine. This show yeah yeah yeah and I again like I it's been a long time since I was like long time dating a person we're hitting fucking 10 months like next week two weeks it's good it's been very good I'm very happy The show that has all of three listeners.

Josh (01:53:26):
But I also hear it. I'm very OPSEC-oriented. Yeah.

Mike (01:53:46):
But I think this is I don't do this with her right like these two three hour long like we are just gonna keep talking for hours jumping on like really weird deep topics and then taking that topic and turning it and and so like which is not me saying like oh we I wish I was doing this with her is more like how can I take this I I I don't think she's interested in she's listened to the first episode like this is not for me I was like I understand it's not for most people this is this is madness we are two crazy people trying to figure something out exactly but taking those lessons and figuring out how to use them in like this new ish like really good relationship in my life is been Yeah.

Josh (01:54:26):
It's not for anybody, we're just chatting. Yeah. Interesting.

Mike (01:54:46):
a thing I'm reflecting on and trying to figure out. Like, do you do this with Olivia? Yeah, I'm sure she was thrilled with you walking around Rome and going, I don't know what job I'm going to take every night.

(01:55:16):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:55:26):
like 58 questions for love or something like that. And then they tracked the participants in that study and found that they had deeper relationships after the fact. One of the things that Olivia and I did early on that drove her up a wall was kind of this question game of like I would just say what do you think about this topic thing you know or the classic is give me a thought and a question. And like we'll use that to spark and cultivate conversation. And she hated it at first and still kind of It's a day. But we just celebrated 11 years together. Right? And I... One of the things that she always mentions is that when we started dating, she was worried that she wasn't a deep enough person to engage me well enough. And I think... And she can reply in the thread of the show if she feels in alignment or...

Mike (01:56:00):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Do not schedule pod at gmail.com. Do not schedule pod at gmail.com. Yeah. It's true. I can take it. Yeah.

Josh (01:56:26):
Against it. There you go. Email Michael. If it's positive, he'll tell me. If it's negative, he'll keep it to himself. But she feels like she's grown in a lot of ways because of that exercise. And I think everybody's capable of it. It's just making the space. But we lived, we went to college two hours from home. We both live roughly in the same area.

Mike (01:56:59):
Yeah. That is a lot of time in the car. Mm-hmm.

(01:57:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:58:13):
Yeah.

Mike (01:58:16):
and my brain juice is low. But then on weekends, it's good. I don't know why I'm defining myself. I appreciate your insight into this having just done 11 years, which is disgusting. Yeah.

Josh (01:58:38):
I know it. Thank you.

Mike (01:58:46):
Yeah. Congratulations. Yeah. The. I don't know. Your turn. Yeah. I feel like I've I feel like I lead these a lot. So it's your turn. Yeah. Which. Because you didn't stop at all. So where are you? Just so.

Josh (01:59:00):
I turn.
That's fair. That's fair.
I'm going to check our time quick and see where we're at.
I feel like this process...

Mike (01:59:16):
Okay.

Josh (01:59:17):
I'm just at two hours.
So we can probably get close to like...

Mike (01:59:23):
I don't know.
I feel we could do another two.

Josh (01:59:24):
We probably could. I've done a lot of processing here, and I'm very thankful for that. I would like to get another one of these on the calendar for next week, because I feel like I'm ready to dig into the work. The post-election, post-jobs stuff. Because I also feel like I'm on the threshold of Same.

(01:59:54):
something else. And I felt that way even before this job situation started kicking up and even before the election. But I feel like much as you're kind of exploring who Michael is in his fourth decade, I am trying to figure out who I am entering the tail end of my third decade. It was. Yeah.

Mike (02:00:13):
That was a low fucking blow.

Josh (02:00:54):
kind of emboldened my decision-making with four full decades of life experience currently underway to inform my youthful outlook on my future.

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