December 5, 2024 • 31 mins
After growing up in a working-class neighborhood in South St. Louis, Dave McMillan's journey led him to the United States Army during the Vietnam War. Today, he joins us to discuss how this pivotal chapter in his life not only expanded his worldview but also set the stage for his future career in education. Listen as Dave shares how the diverse bonds formed at Fort Leonard Wood and his deployment experiences in Northern Italy played a crucial role in shaping his approach to life and work.
Discipline and resilience are more than just military buzzwords; they're crucial life skills that Dave argues have universal applications. We unpack stories of rigorous training, personal transformations, and the intense camaraderie that comes with military service. Amid the trials and tribulations, Dave reflects on how understanding one's role within a team—whether in the Army or elsewhere—can foster both personal growth and collective success.
The journey doesn't stop with military service. Dave's rich tapestry of experiences reminds us of the ongoing influence that mentors and educators have, even when it's not immediately visible. As we explore themes of gratitude and growth, Dave's tales underscore the power of viewing life's challenges as opportunities for personal development. This episode celebrates a life of resilience and optimism, offering valuable insights for anyone looking to navigate their own journey with a sense of purpose and gratitude.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Doc Discussions.
This is Jason Edwards, and I'mhere today with a local
celebrity of sorts, Mr DaveMcMillan.
Dave, you're a principal herein town at one of the Parkway
schools, is that?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
right At Parkway West High School.
Yes, from 87 through 95.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
87 through 95, so you may recognize the voice.
And then you were the West AreaSuperintendent of Parkway
schools as well.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Absolutely.
So I had all the elementaryschools, the middle school,
obviously, the high school andhuman resources, a few other
things that were in my portfolio.
So, yeah, it was an interestingjob.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I would assume when you're in that role you're kind
of the hub of the wheel of thecommunity where you kind of know
a lot of people and that can begood and bad.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
But probably more good than bad.
It's probably good to get toknow as many of them as you can.
You know, and especiallystudents, yeah, and you want to
know the name of every senior.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, very cool, but you know Veterans Day is coming
up and you and I had had adiscussion offline about your
time in the service, and so weknow where you ended up.
But tell me how it started outfor you and your experience,
where you grew up and how yougot into the service.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, I grew up in a working class neighborhood in
South St Louis, went toRoosevelt High School and my
parents had saved.
They wanted me to get a goodeducation.
So I went to WashingtonUniversity and completed my
bachelor's degree there.
But the war was raging at thattime the Vietnam War and so the
handwriting was on the wall thatI better be thinking about how
I was going to handle this ifindeed I was called up.
So I tried different, looked atdifferent options, if you will.
(01:37):
You know, national Guard, otherkind of things like that but
nothing came up.
So I knew that I was going toget drafted other kind of things
like that but nothing came up.
So I knew that I was going toget drafted, and so I tried to
make a decision about what mightbe the best military to go in.
I picked the United States Armybecause I had my.
You know, I could make a coupleof choices right there.
I could go into infantry or Icould go to artillery.
(01:59):
So artillery was the lesslethal of the two, and so I took
that one and ended up doingthat and spent four years in the
army and it turned out to be,you know, a grand experiment in
my life and I learned so muchand grew so much from that.
First of all, you know, I didn'tknow precisely what I wanted to
do when I graduated, and a lotof people just you know, they
(02:22):
either take a job or they go onto grad school or whatever like
that.
So it was a time for me to kindof figure things out too.
So that four-year interlude inthere was very helpful, and so I
did it the hard way, though.
I went through basic trainingfor two months, then went
through advanced individualtraining for two months, went to
officer candidate school foralmost seven months, went to
(02:44):
ballistic missile officer school, got my commission and ended up
with a nuclear missilebattalion over in Vicenza, italy
.
And that was really kind of myfirst time away from home,
really away from my parents.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Northern Italy.
It is Northern Italy, it isclose to Venice in that area,
and so that was very interesting.
And I'll go back to basic,though.
The other good thing about thatbasic in AIT was that you know
you walk in there and you'rerunning into people from all
walks of life rural, urban, rich, middle class, poor folks,
(03:22):
black and white, all kinds ofyou know, ethnicities, whatever
and so that's your first wake upcall that it's a big world out
there.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Where did you do your basic training at?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I did it at Fort Leonard Wood.
Fort Leonard Wood yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
The boot camp, you have this identity shift that
occurs when you're going throughwhere you're not exactly the
same person coming out that youwere going in.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout that and the experience
you had in bootcamp?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And I think it was interesting because I talked
about all these different peoplethat are going at the same time
and I saw some amazingtransformations take place just
in a few short weeks, you knowtwo months there, because we had
kids that came in motivated,unmotivated, you know, in shape,
out of shape, disciplined,undisciplined, you know,
(04:11):
overweight, blah, blah, blah,all this kind of thing.
And so, talking about thehealth part of it, just the
physical part, I saw this wasthe nutrition program.
They had the drill sergeantsand for those young men that
were overweight by a good deallike that, they followed them
through the chow line and theyjust talked to the, you know,
(04:32):
the cooks back there and theysaid do not put any potatoes on
this guy's plate.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Do not put any rice on this plate, don't put any
bread on that and certainlydon't give them, you know, a
piece of pie at the end, likethat.
And that went on, you know.
And then there was so muchphysical activity going on
between walking and marching,and running, and all of this
People got in good shape.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And you saw a physical transformation of
certain people when they came in.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
And that transcends to the mind.
Now, this is the OG Ozempicright.
This is, you know, what theyhad back in the day OG Ozempic
right.
This is you know what they hadback in the day.
But you can't.
When you go through a physicalchange like that, it has to
change your mind too.
I think it does?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I think it does, and the same with discipline and
undiscipline.
I didn't have any problemgetting up in the morning, but a
lot of the young people thatwere coming in and went through
there, they couldn't get up inthe morning.
You know, when Reveille calledor whatever, they learned to get
up because they were draggedout of the bunk.
If they had to be, whateverhappened.
And then it was all thediscipline.
You know.
They began to learn about howto dress right, how to have your
(05:31):
boots polished and your beltbuckle polished, how to dress so
that your gig line was straight.
And all of a sudden, you know,people get a little bit into
that.
They're looking good, they'refeeling better about themselves,
they're more disciplined.
So you saw that going on, andthe instruction in the Army was
good too.
You know, I ended up being aneducator, but I was kind of
amazed at these young peoplethat came in.
(05:54):
Some of them weren'tparticularly good students, but
they had kind of a programlearning approach and artillery
there's a lot of calculationsthat have to be made.
Sure, even at slide rules backthen they were able to teach
them step by step by step andthey got better and better and
they learned how to do their job, and so I think there was some
pride in that too.
I mean, the ones that I'vetalked to, they felt better
(06:15):
about themselves.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
For sure, yeah, and you know.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
A part of you dies and a new part of you is reborn,
that's exactly right, that'sexact, and the other part of it
is that the drill sergeants werevery good about molding a lot
of disparate individuals intoeffective units and the
effective units, the platoonsthat you had, began to work more
cooperatively, and there was acertain amount of pride in that
(06:41):
that.
You took pride in your unit,yeah, and all of a sudden you
were beginning to become a partof something a little bit bigger
than you, and so all of that,that's good stuff, emotionally,
I think.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, I think and you see this on sports teams too
you realize that your teammates,whether it's your platoon or
your basketball team, they'recounting on you and you're
counting on them.
Right, and without everybodykind of pulling their way,
nothing gets done.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And people were.
They were better at differentthings.
For example, the best marksmenwere the people from the farms
Sure, the rural people.
They were good shots.
Yeah, I was a lousy marksman, soI'm glad, but at any rate, yeah
, and I and you know, to take itone step further when I went to
(07:27):
OCS that's Officer CandidateSchool, yeah, the Officer
Candidate School in Fort Sill,oklahoma, and that's a program
that they kind of distill afour-year program at West Point
into about seven months and it'spretty grueling and you know
the first eight weeks of it arereally grueling and a lot of
harassment.
Yeah, you know you're supposedto have your foot lockers
(07:47):
completely organized and you'rea lot of things that you're
supposed to do and they're goingto always find fault with what
you're doing and so they'redragging you out at night and
you know, screaming at you andhollering at you and they can
really kind of beat you down bydoing that.
And then you think you didsomething right and they say
it's not right.
Drop and give me 20 push-ups.
Drop and give me 20 push-ups.
Anytime.
(08:08):
We were outside we had to runand it was a trot, you know, a
jog in formation and everything,but the only time we could walk
was four hours in the morningon Sunday.
The rest of the time, if wewere outside, we had to be on a
run.
I had cardiovascular endurancelike I'd never had before.
I mean I must have run, youknow, 12, 15 miles a day doing
(08:30):
that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So what was the point of when you did something
pretty good of breaking you down?
I mean, I know it wasn't byaccident, it was.
Everything they do is by design.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
What do you think the point of that was?
Well and I don't know if Iagreed with it completely, but
there's certain things I dobelieve in.
I think the idea was to say ifyou think this is hard, wait
till you get to Vietnam and youknow shells start coming in and
everything starts happening likethat.
You know you've got to remaincomposed, you can't get
scattered all of that and so,and if you wanted to get a
(09:00):
commission, you learn to kind ofbe able to handle that
resilience, I guess, is whatthey call it today, a certain
resilience that you had that Ican deal with this and all these
people that are screaming at me, and sometimes you just wanted
to slap them.
Yeah, you know, and they, youknow.
Can't do that.
No, I can't do that.
Well, I guess you could, butit's not good for your future,
(09:21):
the military but I think therewas a certain resilience there.
Now, the thing that I it waslike fraternity hazing, it's the
same kind of thing.
Okay, that wasn't my.
When you became anupperclassman you were able to
kind of instill that disciplineand do that with the
underclassmen.
I never did really partake inthat.
It wasn't my thing to do, so Itreated them more respectfully,
(09:44):
whatever.
That's just me.
But I learned to deal with it,yeah, that's for sure.
I mean, I remember breaking outin kind of hives and you know,
nerves and stuff like that weregetting to me.
The first it was bothersome.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
But when you went over to Vietnam and you found
yourself in tense situations,did you feel like, hey, I've
been here before.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, it's different, obviously yeah it's different
and you know when the momentcomes, unless it's just horrific
and I wasn't, I must say Iwasn't in that.
The infantrymen that are goingout on night, platoons and
everything and getting ambushed,that's one thing.
Yeah, I was in artillery units,but nevertheless we've got big
(10:24):
guns and they're going off atall times of the night,
harassing and interdicting fires, or we're actually firing at
something.
Yeah, and it gets yourattention.
And what gets your attentionmore is when you're not hearing
those but you hear small armsfire, because that means they
must be close enough to see you.
But for some reason it seemslike you could get a hold of
(10:46):
yourself and remain composedenough to be able to do what you
had to do.
So I think it might have helped, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you know you think, why are the
details of my footlocker?
Why does this matter?
But the details of you knowgetting your coordinates um the
angle of your uh artillery.
You know you have to be righton with that kind of stuff.
And, and you know, there'shabits that we develop as humans
, but there are also standardsthat you have and I, you know, I
(11:14):
look back on my life and I'mthankful for the people who took
the time to.
I look back and I realized thatI mattered to them and that
they were willing to put myselfout, put themselves out and give
me a hard time about something,when the easier thing for them
to do would be to keep walking.
But they took the time to giveme a hard time and bust my chops
over something.
(11:35):
But it was out of love.
I mean they wanted me to bebetter.
At least they saw that I hadthe potential to be better and I
look back on that withgratitude.
And so you know, if you're inhigh school and your coach is
yelling at you, I mean maybethey care about you.
It doesn't feel like it at thetime.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Well, I was thinking like for you to be a doctor, you
know you'd have to be highlydisciplined.
You only have a certain amountof hours in the day and they're
all the studies you've got to do.
Do you feel like that you?
Did you develop that kind ofdiscipline in the course of your
study, or did you had it?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
You know that's a good question for me.
I ran a lot in high school andso I was a state champion in
track and cross country and mydad really would not let me let
laziness win.
Oh yes, and so he would.
He would say and I've probablysaid this before on the podcast,
(12:27):
but he would say put your shoeson, put your gear on, walk
outside.
If you don't feel like running,come back in.
But the hardest part is gettingstarted.
And so I was very religious,you know, in my training never
missed a day day.
Um, if, even if I was sick, Iwould still try to run some.
Even if I had pneumonia, Iwould still try to run, which is
not a great idea, but I wantedto keep my positive habits down.
(12:48):
And so, for me, when I wouldstudy in medical school, um, I
would actually keep a stopwatchon my table and if I got up to
urinate, I would stop thestopwatch and I would start it
again.
And I would hear people say, oh, I studied 12 hours a day.
And I'd say there's no way,because I could develop enough
endurance to study for aboutthree hours, and then your
(13:10):
brain's just fried.
I mean three real hours, youknow, not talking to people, oh,
yeah, you know.
And then take a couple hoursoff, do three more, and and then
later on in the day I could dotwo more, but that was about it,
you know.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I had an interesting one.
I lived in a four-family flatover on Grand and Magnolia by
Tower Grove Park.
Yeah, it was one of the shotgunhomes.
Yeah, sure, and I was reallybusy during high school.
I took good courses and studiedhard and then I always played
football, basketball or baseballafter school.
So by the time I got home it waslike 5.30, 6 o'clock at night
(13:49):
and I'd have dinner and thenafter that I knew that my job
was to stay in the kitchenthat's where my desk was, the
kitchen table right there, andmy parents went three rooms up
to the living room and that'swhere the television was, and I
learned this early on.
So after about 45 minutes ofstudying I'd walk out and go
walk in there and see them,which was fine, and I'd do that
(14:13):
again.
And about the third time I didthat they said you know, you
need to go back there and studylike that, and they didn't yell
at me.
But the next time I came outthey just turned the TV off and
we all sat there just looking atone another, which was really
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So you just learn to stay back in the kitchen and
study for about three hours.
So you developed somediscipline with that early on.
I think not after, but afteryou had been through boot camp
and you were in Vietnam.
Could you talk to me about thebrotherhood that you developed
with your fellow soldiers?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, I'm going to talk about let's see probably
two of them in particular.
I really didn't hang out with alot of people in St Louis, not
because we were from all overthe United States or whatever.
But there were two people that Imet that had been important
mates of mine for the last 60years, and one of them was Henry
(15:11):
Von Cohorn.
I told you I lived in afour-family flat.
This guy lived in Scarsdale,new York.
They had a nanny and a butlerand all this.
He went to Hotchkiss PrepSchool and to Princeton and then
you know Columbia and all this.
But we became fast friends overin Italy, and mainly because we
(15:32):
had similar value systems and weboth loved sports and we loved
skiing and we were in a foreigncountry and we just hung out
together.
And we loved skiing and we werein a foreign country and we
just hung out together.
And it's been, I guess, almost55 years or so that we've been
good friends.
And I've said before, there'sno way in the world that a
person from his station in lifeand a person from my station
(15:52):
become fast friends unless it'sthe Army that brings people
together from all walks of lifeand you become part of a bigger
mission.
We were part of the SouthernEuropean Task Force, ctaf, which
would prevent the Russians fromcoming through the soft
underbelly of Europe.
Churchill said to attack on thesouthern flank, and so it was a
(16:15):
pretty important mission and so.
But we became fast friends andthe other guy I met on a leave
he was an Australian MP and Imet him on a plane going to
Taiwan, and so we spent a weektogether in Taiwan.
When I got ready to leave Iwent down to Saigon.
Flying out of Saigon he took meto the Intercontinental Hotel.
(16:36):
We had a big French dinner.
I remember the meal.
As a matter of fact, we hadlobster thermidor.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
This is in Saigon this is in.
Saigon and the history of it isFrench Indochina.
Was Vietnam before Vietnam?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
tried to break away.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And so there's a French element there.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
And I had a grand marnier souffle.
I could just remember this mealand I had a grand Marnier
souffle, for I could justremember this meal.
And so we came back and but atthat time there was no internet
or whatever.
So we would send letters to oneanother and you know, and maybe
call at Christmas time or someother kind of important day or
whatever.
And then, with the advent ofinternet and everything, get all
that going on.
(17:16):
Now FaceTime got that, yeah,but I've since seen him twice.
He came over to visit me onetime in 74.
He was also a great runner andthey had the International
Police Officers AssociationGames and Olympic Games, Very
cool and so he did that and hewas here for a few days and then
I didn't see him again forabout 30 years.
And then we met up to go on atrip to Italy and he married a
(17:40):
girl in Tieny, Italy, which wasabout 10 miles from where I was
stationed in Vicenza.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
So what are the odds of that happening?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
So we had that connection and had this great
trip and we did Rome, down theAmalfi Coast and Sicily and back
up.
So we did that.
And then there was another 10years and then we met up with
them, my wife and I and his wifeand uh and mark mark thompson,
and we went to, we went back tovisit vietnam, in cambodia, and,
(18:08):
uh, that was a great trip tooand they were just we're just
mates yeah, he'd do anything forme and vice versa.
And uh, so, and once again I getthe Aussie point of view about
the world and the United Statesrole in the world.
You know, and Henry and I usedto have close relations with a
lot of the Italians.
The problem with that was thatnobody, they didn't speak any
(18:31):
English, so I relied on myprimitive Italian.
But I learned how to speakItalian enough to go on
vacations with them and dothings with them.
But after a while your ear youget rusty and they talk very
quickly.
Okay, so it became letterwriting.
But I did see them on that tripback to Italy with Mark after
(18:53):
this must've been 35 years orwhatever and the tour guide
found out their addresses andphone numbers and we met up,
found out their addresses andphone numbers and we met up with
my two friends and we spent twodays.
It was like time stood still.
That's beautiful.
They took me in when I was inItaly, cause I lived out in the
economy and you know when, inwhen in Rome, do as the Romans
do, and I was just with them allthe time.
(19:13):
So a wonderful experience.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Now, what were the?
You know the, when the UnitedStates military takes in
soldiers, they do it for theimmediate purpose of having, you
know, a civil defense Right.
But there's a secondary gainfrom society because, for one,
(19:37):
it can pull people out ofpoverty, absolutely, it can
teach some technical skills thatthey can take over to the civil
sector.
It gives you leadershipexperience, like you say,
personal pride in yourself, soyou carry yourself a little bit
differently.
And then the GI Bill, which puta lot of guys through college
and still guys and girls throughcollege.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Four years for me.
It took care of all my graduatestudies.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Okay, so you use the GI Bill to do your graduate
studies.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
To include using the VA medical and dental system.
When I came back, you know, I'dbeen away from the States for
three years, and so I really did.
I relied on them for that and Ideal, and I do, to this day.
There are certain things that Iget from the VA hearing aids,
you know, and other kind ofthings.
I have a physician in JeffersonBarracks in the VA and I see
(20:26):
this person and they've takengood care of me too.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
So what do you think are the?
You know, you went on to have,you know, a very nice career in
education.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Did I tell you that segue how that happened.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
No, go ahead, Go ahead.
I don't know if I should now.
Yeah, please do.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Please do.
That's the other thing aboutthe Army.
When I reported for duty as ayoung second lieutenant over in
Vicenza, italy, captain Borneobrought me in.
He said we got to fill out yourportfolio and going through all
the things You're going to havethe motor pool You're going to
have and he said you're going toteach this current events class
on Wednesday morning.
And I said I don't teach, I'venever taught before.
(21:03):
And he said well, you will onWednesday morning.
Yeah, that's kind of the thing.
And so I prepared for that,that class, and I remember doing
it and standing in front ofthose 120 people that were in
the battery and actually it wentpretty well and I felt good
about it.
Yeah, and I had a couplesoldiers that you know they were
(21:24):
lifers that came up to meafterwards and said you know
what?
That was pretty interesting,more so than most, and so I got
a little full of myself, yeah,and I remember within the second
or third class, I was going toteach something on race
relations.
Okay, yeah, it didn't go sowell this.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
This would have been, you know, uh 73, 74, something
like that.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
No, this would have been 19, uh, all of 1970, 69 and
70, 69, 70.
But you know we had a lot, alot of racial tension in the
arts.
But I thought this would be mychance to really kind of set
them straight yeah and uh, whatI found out is that I needed
more training, obviously, and so, but there was a spark that
went off in my mind about I kindof enjoy this and maybe this
(22:07):
could lead to something, and ifI got more training and
everything it would teach.
And there it is, and that wasmy ended up being my calling in
life.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So you came home, you took advantage of the GI Bill,
which was a buy-in back then.
Right, you had to pay.
Did you have to pay some ofyour education or not?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I don't think I paid hardly anything but I ended up
going through the master'sprogram at UMSL and got all of
my graduate you know programsdone and you know certified
teacher, administrator,superintendent certification,
the whole thing.
And yeah, the army took care ofthat.
So I and that that would havenever happened, I don't think,
without the army because, Iwould have never had that
(22:43):
experience.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
So I was.
I was reading a little bitabout the GI Bill and in 1947,
about half of college studentswere in through the GI Bill.
You know which is amazing, thebills evolved over time.
But the Vietnam era bill, whichstarted in about 1966, if you
were married you got about $125a month and my dad told me that
(23:06):
tuition at Missouri State atthat time was $120 a semester,
which rounds out to about $1,300a semester in today's dollars.
But that's not the currentprice.
So you have inflation butthat's a whole different story.
But it was a pretty good deal.
It was enough to get by andactually have a little bit extra
to support yourself as you wentthrough school.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, that's what I say for a lot of young people,
even those that graduate fromcollege, but especially high
school, they're not preciselysure what they want to do.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And so it gives them it's an incubation period.
You can go in there and all ofa sudden things start happening.
You can take different coursesor whatever, and all of a sudden
you know you, you come up withsomething that when you get out
you can apply some of thoseskills, or you have an idea of
what you might want to do.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So you know the, the Mormons, you know a lot of them
will go on a two year.
What is it A pilgrimage?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
or mission.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Right and so, and some of them will be in the
united states and some of themwill be abroad, um, but I I've
often I think boys mature alittle bit slower than girls I
think so there's some prettygood data on that and that's
been my.
You know, for me I probablykind of matured at like 26 or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I understand that.
No, I understand that 100%.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And you know, I often thought that's probably
actually, even though it setsthem back a couple of years,
it's probably a real advantageto those guys, because they go
out and get this perspective ofthe world.
And then they come back andthey feel like they're behind
and feeling like you're behindis like a superpower, right.
And so they come back and theyfeel like they're behind and a
lot of them will graduate afour-year university in two or
(24:44):
three years and they take itvery seriously because they
realize that they're kind offortunate to be where they are
compared to their mission and alot of them do great in school
Absolutely, and I think havingthat time to mature can be
really good for you.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I think so and you know I've talked uh with some
people about this and uh inwestern europe, other places.
They have a compulsory militaryservice for 18 months or
whatever.
When I was in italy and israelyeah, israel is another example
of that and I believe, I knowthey got an all-volunteer army
and the professional soldiersand everything at the very top
(25:24):
like that.
I'm not as convinced of that asthey are, because I think, I
almost believe, that there oughtto be some kind of required
public service or militaryservice for all young people
when they get out of high schoolfor like a year.
Yeah, to figure things out, togo out into the world, to help
(25:47):
people, to get to know thatthere's a bigger world than just
you, and that whole idea ofhelping people out.
It's a good feeling.
You know that's your servicebody, that's, you've earned your
right to become a US citizenwhen you do this kind of stuff,
yeah, so yeah, I do thinkserving others, being selfless,
(26:10):
leads to a happier life.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
By nature, you know they could say, well, I'll take
kind of a sacrificial view oflife and say I will, you know,
sacrifice of myself to raise mychildren or help my community or
, you know, or whatever.
And if you can find that kindof purpose in your being, I do
think it leads to a happier life.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I think so, and we'll talk about the purpose in just
a second.
But I just think that wholeidea, when I say public service,
it could be the Peace Corps.
The purpose in just a second.
But I just think that wholeidea when I say public service,
it could be the Peace Corps,vista could be any one of a
number of things, but the wholeidea is that you're giving back
to your country, or at leastyou're paying your dues.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah, you don't have to carry a rifle.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
That's exactly right, exactly right.
And the thing that and itstarted with the military I felt
a great sense of mission, beingin the military and having to
take care of my soldiers andthem taking care of me or
whatever.
And the whole thing witheducation, it was a
purpose-driven life.
I always had a sense of purposeand what was I doing?
(27:14):
I was helping, you know,nurture and educate and develop
the young people of America, andthat's a great feeling to do
that.
And, as I was saying, I wasjust writing this letter of
recommendation for a young womanwho's she's not she's
middle-aged now, but applyingfor the circuit court position.
And I get these kind of thingsall the time.
It makes you feel good, yeah,that you've helped somebody
(27:34):
along the way in their journey.
And so I never had any problemswith just it being about money.
Where I was working, I mean, Imade a good living, whatever but
there was a.
You know teaching and learningare why we're here.
That was the West Mission,right there.
Teaching and learning are whywe're here.
You know Lifelong learning,being of service, you know
Personal responsibility, allthose kind of character traits
(27:57):
that you kind of work on everyday with students and teachable
moments, yeah, that you kind ofwork on every day with students
and teachable moments.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, you know, there's evolution.
There's biological evolution,but I think there's also
evolution of ideas, and it'sthrough teaching people and
working with younger people isthe way we kind of help ideas
propagate and evolve.
Ideas, um, propagate and evolveand um and so, um, you know, I
(28:26):
want to thank you for not onlyyour service to the country, um,
but also to our community, andI know that you've made a much
bigger difference in the livesof the students in the community
, along with a lot of otherteachers out there, than you'll
ever know.
I know that personally I've hadplenty of teachers that have
made a huge difference in mylife that, to be honest, like
(28:49):
life moved on and I moved awayand I've never gotten to fully
thank, and even if I thank them,they wouldn't be able to feel
the full weight of what it meansto me.
And so I know you'll never knowthe weight, but it does feel so
good when your life pathcrosses somebody else's life
path and you make a positivedifference.
(29:10):
So thanks, dave.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
And I've had.
I've had many of them and Ifeel blessed for it and have led
a rich life and with all thesedifferent experiences, with
different people from all overthe world, and I'm a lucky guy.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
All worked out for me , yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
And you're an optimist too.
I know you choose to to look atthings through a positive light
and and, and you know, being inthe military and Vietnam is not
an easy thing, but I thinkyou've chosen to kind of frame
it as this is something thathelped me become a better person
and I think that's a true giftthat you can have to yourself to
(29:45):
kind of view light through thebest life possible.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, yeah, well, I got out of it physically and
emotionally unscathed and endedup with a profession that was
meaningful to me, and so I'vegot nothing but gratitude.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, thank you for your service, sir.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Thank you very much, doc, I appreciate it.
Welcome to Doc Discussions.
This is Jason Edwards, and I'mhere today with a local
celebrity of sorts, Mr DaveMcMillan.
Dave, you're a principal herein town at one of the Parkway
schools, is that?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
right At Parkway West High School.
Yes, from 87 through 95.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
87 through 95, so you may recognize the voice.
And then you were the West AreaSuperintendent of Parkway
schools as well.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Absolutely.
So I had all the elementaryschools, the middle school,
obviously, the high school andhuman resources, a few other
things that were in my portfolio.
So, yeah, it was an interestingjob.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I would assume when you're in that role you're kind
of the hub of the wheel of thecommunity where you kind of know
a lot of people and that can begood and bad.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
But probably more good than bad.
It's probably good to get toknow as many of them as you can.
You know, and especiallystudents, yeah, and you want to
know the name of every senior.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, very cool, but you know Veterans Day is coming
up and you and I had had adiscussion offline about your
time in the service, and so weknow where you ended up.
But tell me how it started outfor you and your experience,
where you grew up and how yougot into the service.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, I grew up in a working class neighborhood in
South St Louis, went toRoosevelt High School and my
parents had saved.
They wanted me to get a goodeducation.
So I went to WashingtonUniversity and completed my
bachelor's degree there.
But the war was raging at thattime the Vietnam War and so the
handwriting was on the wall thatI better be thinking about how
I was going to handle this ifindeed I was called up.
So I tried different, looked atdifferent options, if you will.
(01:37):
You know, national Guard, otherkind of things like that but
nothing came up.
So I knew that I was going toget drafted other kind of things
like that but nothing came up.
So I knew that I was going toget drafted, and so I tried to
make a decision about what mightbe the best military to go in.
I picked the United States Armybecause I had my.
You know, I could make a coupleof choices right there.
I could go into infantry or Icould go to artillery.
(01:59):
So artillery was the lesslethal of the two, and so I took
that one and ended up doingthat and spent four years in the
army and it turned out to be,you know, a grand experiment in
my life and I learned so muchand grew so much from that.
First of all, you know, I didn'tknow precisely what I wanted to
do when I graduated, and a lotof people just you know, they
(02:22):
either take a job or they go onto grad school or whatever like
that.
So it was a time for me to kindof figure things out too.
So that four-year interlude inthere was very helpful, and so I
did it the hard way, though.
I went through basic trainingfor two months, then went
through advanced individualtraining for two months, went to
officer candidate school foralmost seven months, went to
(02:44):
ballistic missile officer school, got my commission and ended up
with a nuclear missilebattalion over in Vicenza, italy
.
And that was really kind of myfirst time away from home,
really away from my parents.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Northern Italy.
It is Northern Italy, it isclose to Venice in that area,
and so that was very interesting.
And I'll go back to basic,though.
The other good thing about thatbasic in AIT was that you know
you walk in there and you'rerunning into people from all
walks of life rural, urban, rich, middle class, poor folks,
(03:22):
black and white, all kinds ofyou know, ethnicities, whatever
and so that's your first wake upcall that it's a big world out
there.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Where did you do your basic training at?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I did it at Fort Leonard Wood.
Fort Leonard Wood yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
The boot camp, you have this identity shift that
occurs when you're going throughwhere you're not exactly the
same person coming out that youwere going in.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout that and the experience
you had in bootcamp?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And I think it was interesting because I talked
about all these different peoplethat are going at the same time
and I saw some amazingtransformations take place just
in a few short weeks, you knowtwo months there, because we had
kids that came in motivated,unmotivated, you know, in shape,
out of shape, disciplined,undisciplined, you know,
(04:11):
overweight, blah, blah, blah,all this kind of thing.
And so, talking about thehealth part of it, just the
physical part, I saw this wasthe nutrition program.
They had the drill sergeantsand for those young men that
were overweight by a good deallike that, they followed them
through the chow line and theyjust talked to the, you know,
(04:32):
the cooks back there and theysaid do not put any potatoes on
this guy's plate.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Do not put any rice on this plate, don't put any
bread on that and certainlydon't give them, you know, a
piece of pie at the end, likethat.
And that went on, you know.
And then there was so muchphysical activity going on
between walking and marching,and running, and all of this
People got in good shape.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And you saw a physical transformation of
certain people when they came in.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
And that transcends to the mind.
Now, this is the OG Ozempicright.
This is, you know, what theyhad back in the day OG Ozempic
right.
This is you know what they hadback in the day.
But you can't.
When you go through a physicalchange like that, it has to
change your mind too.
I think it does?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I think it does, and the same with discipline and
undiscipline.
I didn't have any problemgetting up in the morning, but a
lot of the young people thatwere coming in and went through
there, they couldn't get up inthe morning.
You know, when Reveille calledor whatever, they learned to get
up because they were draggedout of the bunk.
If they had to be, whateverhappened.
And then it was all thediscipline.
You know.
They began to learn about howto dress right, how to have your
(05:31):
boots polished and your beltbuckle polished, how to dress so
that your gig line was straight.
And all of a sudden, you know,people get a little bit into
that.
They're looking good, they'refeeling better about themselves,
they're more disciplined.
So you saw that going on, andthe instruction in the Army was
good too.
You know, I ended up being aneducator, but I was kind of
amazed at these young peoplethat came in.
(05:54):
Some of them weren'tparticularly good students, but
they had kind of a programlearning approach and artillery
there's a lot of calculationsthat have to be made.
Sure, even at slide rules backthen they were able to teach
them step by step by step andthey got better and better and
they learned how to do their job, and so I think there was some
pride in that too.
I mean, the ones that I'vetalked to, they felt better
(06:15):
about themselves.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
For sure, yeah, and you know.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
A part of you dies and a new part of you is reborn,
that's exactly right, that'sexact, and the other part of it
is that the drill sergeants werevery good about molding a lot
of disparate individuals intoeffective units and the
effective units, the platoonsthat you had, began to work more
cooperatively, and there was acertain amount of pride in that
(06:41):
that.
You took pride in your unit,yeah, and all of a sudden you
were beginning to become a partof something a little bit bigger
than you, and so all of that,that's good stuff, emotionally,
I think.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, I think and you see this on sports teams too
you realize that your teammates,whether it's your platoon or
your basketball team, they'recounting on you and you're
counting on them.
Right, and without everybodykind of pulling their way,
nothing gets done.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And people were.
They were better at differentthings.
For example, the best marksmenwere the people from the farms
Sure, the rural people.
They were good shots.
Yeah, I was a lousy marksman, soI'm glad, but at any rate, yeah
, and I and you know, to take itone step further when I went to
(07:27):
OCS that's Officer CandidateSchool, yeah, the Officer
Candidate School in Fort Sill,oklahoma, and that's a program
that they kind of distill afour-year program at West Point
into about seven months and it'spretty grueling and you know
the first eight weeks of it arereally grueling and a lot of
harassment.
Yeah, you know you're supposedto have your foot lockers
(07:47):
completely organized and you'rea lot of things that you're
supposed to do and they're goingto always find fault with what
you're doing and so they'redragging you out at night and
you know, screaming at you andhollering at you and they can
really kind of beat you down bydoing that.
And then you think you didsomething right and they say
it's not right.
Drop and give me 20 push-ups.
Drop and give me 20 push-ups.
Anytime.
(08:08):
We were outside we had to runand it was a trot, you know, a
jog in formation and everything,but the only time we could walk
was four hours in the morningon Sunday.
The rest of the time, if wewere outside, we had to be on a
run.
I had cardiovascular endurancelike I'd never had before.
I mean I must have run, youknow, 12, 15 miles a day doing
(08:30):
that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So what was the point of when you did something
pretty good of breaking you down?
I mean, I know it wasn't byaccident, it was.
Everything they do is by design.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
What do you think the point of that was?
Well and I don't know if Iagreed with it completely, but
there's certain things I dobelieve in.
I think the idea was to say ifyou think this is hard, wait
till you get to Vietnam and youknow shells start coming in and
everything starts happening likethat.
You know you've got to remaincomposed, you can't get
scattered all of that and so,and if you wanted to get a
(09:00):
commission, you learn to kind ofbe able to handle that
resilience, I guess, is whatthey call it today, a certain
resilience that you had that Ican deal with this and all these
people that are screaming at me, and sometimes you just wanted
to slap them.
Yeah, you know, and they, youknow.
Can't do that.
No, I can't do that.
Well, I guess you could, butit's not good for your future,
(09:21):
the military but I think therewas a certain resilience there.
Now, the thing that I it waslike fraternity hazing, it's the
same kind of thing.
Okay, that wasn't my.
When you became anupperclassman you were able to
kind of instill that disciplineand do that with the
underclassmen.
I never did really partake inthat.
It wasn't my thing to do, so Itreated them more respectfully,
(09:44):
whatever.
That's just me.
But I learned to deal with it,yeah, that's for sure.
I mean, I remember breaking outin kind of hives and you know,
nerves and stuff like that weregetting to me.
The first it was bothersome.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
But when you went over to Vietnam and you found
yourself in tense situations,did you feel like, hey, I've
been here before.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, it's different, obviously yeah it's different
and you know when the momentcomes, unless it's just horrific
and I wasn't, I must say Iwasn't in that.
The infantrymen that are goingout on night, platoons and
everything and getting ambushed,that's one thing.
Yeah, I was in artillery units,but nevertheless we've got big
(10:24):
guns and they're going off atall times of the night,
harassing and interdicting fires, or we're actually firing at
something.
Yeah, and it gets yourattention.
And what gets your attentionmore is when you're not hearing
those but you hear small armsfire, because that means they
must be close enough to see you.
But for some reason it seemslike you could get a hold of
(10:46):
yourself and remain composedenough to be able to do what you
had to do.
So I think it might have helped, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you know you think, why are the
details of my footlocker?
Why does this matter?
But the details of you knowgetting your coordinates um the
angle of your uh artillery.
You know you have to be righton with that kind of stuff.
And, and you know, there'shabits that we develop as humans
, but there are also standardsthat you have and I, you know, I
(11:14):
look back on my life and I'mthankful for the people who took
the time to.
I look back and I realized thatI mattered to them and that
they were willing to put myselfout, put themselves out and give
me a hard time about something,when the easier thing for them
to do would be to keep walking.
But they took the time to giveme a hard time and bust my chops
over something.
(11:35):
But it was out of love.
I mean they wanted me to bebetter.
At least they saw that I hadthe potential to be better and I
look back on that withgratitude.
And so you know, if you're inhigh school and your coach is
yelling at you, I mean maybethey care about you.
It doesn't feel like it at thetime.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Well, I was thinking like for you to be a doctor, you
know you'd have to be highlydisciplined.
You only have a certain amountof hours in the day and they're
all the studies you've got to do.
Do you feel like that you?
Did you develop that kind ofdiscipline in the course of your
study, or did you had it?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
You know that's a good question for me.
I ran a lot in high school andso I was a state champion in
track and cross country and mydad really would not let me let
laziness win.
Oh yes, and so he would.
He would say and I've probablysaid this before on the podcast,
(12:27):
but he would say put your shoeson, put your gear on, walk
outside.
If you don't feel like running,come back in.
But the hardest part is gettingstarted.
And so I was very religious,you know, in my training never
missed a day day.
Um, if, even if I was sick, Iwould still try to run some.
Even if I had pneumonia, Iwould still try to run, which is
not a great idea, but I wantedto keep my positive habits down.
(12:48):
And so, for me, when I wouldstudy in medical school, um, I
would actually keep a stopwatchon my table and if I got up to
urinate, I would stop thestopwatch and I would start it
again.
And I would hear people say, oh, I studied 12 hours a day.
And I'd say there's no way,because I could develop enough
endurance to study for aboutthree hours, and then your
(13:10):
brain's just fried.
I mean three real hours, youknow, not talking to people, oh,
yeah, you know.
And then take a couple hoursoff, do three more, and and then
later on in the day I could dotwo more, but that was about it,
you know.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I had an interesting one.
I lived in a four-family flatover on Grand and Magnolia by
Tower Grove Park.
Yeah, it was one of the shotgunhomes.
Yeah, sure, and I was reallybusy during high school.
I took good courses and studiedhard and then I always played
football, basketball or baseballafter school.
So by the time I got home it waslike 5.30, 6 o'clock at night
(13:49):
and I'd have dinner and thenafter that I knew that my job
was to stay in the kitchenthat's where my desk was, the
kitchen table right there, andmy parents went three rooms up
to the living room and that'swhere the television was, and I
learned this early on.
So after about 45 minutes ofstudying I'd walk out and go
walk in there and see them,which was fine, and I'd do that
(14:13):
again.
And about the third time I didthat they said you know, you
need to go back there and studylike that, and they didn't yell
at me.
But the next time I came outthey just turned the TV off and
we all sat there just looking atone another, which was really
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So you just learn to stay back in the kitchen and
study for about three hours.
So you developed somediscipline with that early on.
I think not after, but afteryou had been through boot camp
and you were in Vietnam.
Could you talk to me about thebrotherhood that you developed
with your fellow soldiers?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, I'm going to talk about let's see probably
two of them in particular.
I really didn't hang out with alot of people in St Louis, not
because we were from all overthe United States or whatever.
But there were two people that Imet that had been important
mates of mine for the last 60years, and one of them was Henry
(15:11):
Von Cohorn.
I told you I lived in afour-family flat.
This guy lived in Scarsdale,new York.
They had a nanny and a butlerand all this.
He went to Hotchkiss PrepSchool and to Princeton and then
you know Columbia and all this.
But we became fast friends overin Italy, and mainly because we
(15:32):
had similar value systems and weboth loved sports and we loved
skiing and we were in a foreigncountry and we just hung out
together.
And we loved skiing and we werein a foreign country and we
just hung out together.
And it's been, I guess, almost55 years or so that we've been
good friends.
And I've said before, there'sno way in the world that a
person from his station in lifeand a person from my station
(15:52):
become fast friends unless it'sthe Army that brings people
together from all walks of lifeand you become part of a bigger
mission.
We were part of the SouthernEuropean Task Force, ctaf, which
would prevent the Russians fromcoming through the soft
underbelly of Europe.
Churchill said to attack on thesouthern flank, and so it was a
(16:15):
pretty important mission and so.
But we became fast friends andthe other guy I met on a leave
he was an Australian MP and Imet him on a plane going to
Taiwan, and so we spent a weektogether in Taiwan.
When I got ready to leave Iwent down to Saigon.
Flying out of Saigon he took meto the Intercontinental Hotel.
(16:36):
We had a big French dinner.
I remember the meal.
As a matter of fact, we hadlobster thermidor.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
This is in Saigon this is in.
Saigon and the history of it isFrench Indochina.
Was Vietnam before Vietnam?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
tried to break away.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And so there's a French element there.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
And I had a grand marnier souffle.
I could just remember this mealand I had a grand Marnier
souffle, for I could justremember this meal.
And so we came back and but atthat time there was no internet
or whatever.
So we would send letters to oneanother and you know, and maybe
call at Christmas time or someother kind of important day or
whatever.
And then, with the advent ofinternet and everything, get all
that going on.
(17:16):
Now FaceTime got that, yeah,but I've since seen him twice.
He came over to visit me onetime in 74.
He was also a great runner andthey had the International
Police Officers AssociationGames and Olympic Games, Very
cool and so he did that and hewas here for a few days and then
I didn't see him again forabout 30 years.
And then we met up to go on atrip to Italy and he married a
(17:40):
girl in Tieny, Italy, which wasabout 10 miles from where I was
stationed in Vicenza.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
So what are the odds of that happening?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
So we had that connection and had this great
trip and we did Rome, down theAmalfi Coast and Sicily and back
up.
So we did that.
And then there was another 10years and then we met up with
them, my wife and I and his wifeand uh and mark mark thompson,
and we went to, we went back tovisit vietnam, in cambodia, and,
(18:08):
uh, that was a great trip tooand they were just we're just
mates yeah, he'd do anything forme and vice versa.
And uh, so, and once again I getthe Aussie point of view about
the world and the United Statesrole in the world.
You know, and Henry and I usedto have close relations with a
lot of the Italians.
The problem with that was thatnobody, they didn't speak any
(18:31):
English, so I relied on myprimitive Italian.
But I learned how to speakItalian enough to go on
vacations with them and dothings with them.
But after a while your ear youget rusty and they talk very
quickly.
Okay, so it became letterwriting.
But I did see them on that tripback to Italy with Mark after
(18:53):
this must've been 35 years orwhatever and the tour guide
found out their addresses andphone numbers and we met up,
found out their addresses andphone numbers and we met up with
my two friends and we spent twodays.
It was like time stood still.
That's beautiful.
They took me in when I was inItaly, cause I lived out in the
economy and you know when, inwhen in Rome, do as the Romans
do, and I was just with them allthe time.
(19:13):
So a wonderful experience.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Now, what were the?
You know the, when the UnitedStates military takes in
soldiers, they do it for theimmediate purpose of having, you
know, a civil defense Right.
But there's a secondary gainfrom society because, for one,
(19:37):
it can pull people out ofpoverty, absolutely, it can
teach some technical skills thatthey can take over to the civil
sector.
It gives you leadershipexperience, like you say,
personal pride in yourself, soyou carry yourself a little bit
differently.
And then the GI Bill, which puta lot of guys through college
and still guys and girls throughcollege.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Four years for me.
It took care of all my graduatestudies.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Okay, so you use the GI Bill to do your graduate
studies.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
To include using the VA medical and dental system.
When I came back, you know, I'dbeen away from the States for
three years, and so I really did.
I relied on them for that and Ideal, and I do, to this day.
There are certain things that Iget from the VA hearing aids,
you know, and other kind ofthings.
I have a physician in JeffersonBarracks in the VA and I see
(20:26):
this person and they've takengood care of me too.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
So what do you think are the?
You know, you went on to have,you know, a very nice career in
education.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Did I tell you that segue how that happened.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
No, go ahead, Go ahead.
I don't know if I should now.
Yeah, please do.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Please do.
That's the other thing aboutthe Army.
When I reported for duty as ayoung second lieutenant over in
Vicenza, italy, captain Borneobrought me in.
He said we got to fill out yourportfolio and going through all
the things You're going to havethe motor pool You're going to
have and he said you're going toteach this current events class
on Wednesday morning.
And I said I don't teach, I'venever taught before.
(21:03):
And he said well, you will onWednesday morning.
Yeah, that's kind of the thing.
And so I prepared for that,that class, and I remember doing
it and standing in front ofthose 120 people that were in
the battery and actually it wentpretty well and I felt good
about it.
Yeah, and I had a couplesoldiers that you know they were
(21:24):
lifers that came up to meafterwards and said you know
what?
That was pretty interesting,more so than most, and so I got
a little full of myself, yeah,and I remember within the second
or third class, I was going toteach something on race
relations.
Okay, yeah, it didn't go sowell this.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
This would have been, you know, uh 73, 74, something
like that.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
No, this would have been 19, uh, all of 1970, 69 and
70, 69, 70.
But you know we had a lot, alot of racial tension in the
arts.
But I thought this would be mychance to really kind of set
them straight yeah and uh, whatI found out is that I needed
more training, obviously, and so, but there was a spark that
went off in my mind about I kindof enjoy this and maybe this
(22:07):
could lead to something, and ifI got more training and
everything it would teach.
And there it is, and that wasmy ended up being my calling in
life.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So you came home, you took advantage of the GI Bill,
which was a buy-in back then.
Right, you had to pay.
Did you have to pay some ofyour education or not?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I don't think I paid hardly anything but I ended up
going through the master'sprogram at UMSL and got all of
my graduate you know programsdone and you know certified
teacher, administrator,superintendent certification,
the whole thing.
And yeah, the army took care ofthat.
So I and that that would havenever happened, I don't think,
without the army because, Iwould have never had that
(22:43):
experience.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
So I was.
I was reading a little bitabout the GI Bill and in 1947,
about half of college studentswere in through the GI Bill.
You know which is amazing, thebills evolved over time.
But the Vietnam era bill, whichstarted in about 1966, if you
were married you got about $125a month and my dad told me that
(23:06):
tuition at Missouri State atthat time was $120 a semester,
which rounds out to about $1,300a semester in today's dollars.
But that's not the currentprice.
So you have inflation butthat's a whole different story.
But it was a pretty good deal.
It was enough to get by andactually have a little bit extra
to support yourself as you wentthrough school.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, that's what I say for a lot of young people,
even those that graduate fromcollege, but especially high
school, they're not preciselysure what they want to do.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And so it gives them it's an incubation period.
You can go in there and all ofa sudden things start happening.
You can take different coursesor whatever, and all of a sudden
you know you, you come up withsomething that when you get out
you can apply some of thoseskills, or you have an idea of
what you might want to do.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So you know the, the Mormons, you know a lot of them
will go on a two year.
What is it A pilgrimage?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
or mission.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Right and so, and some of them will be in the
united states and some of themwill be abroad, um, but I I've
often I think boys mature alittle bit slower than girls I
think so there's some prettygood data on that and that's
been my.
You know, for me I probablykind of matured at like 26 or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I understand that.
No, I understand that 100%.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And you know, I often thought that's probably
actually, even though it setsthem back a couple of years,
it's probably a real advantageto those guys, because they go
out and get this perspective ofthe world.
And then they come back andthey feel like they're behind
and feeling like you're behindis like a superpower, right.
And so they come back and theyfeel like they're behind and a
lot of them will graduate afour-year university in two or
(24:44):
three years and they take itvery seriously because they
realize that they're kind offortunate to be where they are
compared to their mission and alot of them do great in school
Absolutely, and I think havingthat time to mature can be
really good for you.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I think so and you know I've talked uh with some
people about this and uh inwestern europe, other places.
They have a compulsory militaryservice for 18 months or
whatever.
When I was in italy and israelyeah, israel is another example
of that and I believe, I knowthey got an all-volunteer army
and the professional soldiersand everything at the very top
(25:24):
like that.
I'm not as convinced of that asthey are, because I think, I
almost believe, that there oughtto be some kind of required
public service or militaryservice for all young people
when they get out of high schoolfor like a year.
Yeah, to figure things out, togo out into the world, to help
(25:47):
people, to get to know thatthere's a bigger world than just
you, and that whole idea ofhelping people out.
It's a good feeling.
You know that's your servicebody, that's, you've earned your
right to become a US citizenwhen you do this kind of stuff,
yeah, so yeah, I do thinkserving others, being selfless,
(26:10):
leads to a happier life.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
By nature, you know they could say, well, I'll take
kind of a sacrificial view oflife and say I will, you know,
sacrifice of myself to raise mychildren or help my community or
, you know, or whatever.
And if you can find that kindof purpose in your being, I do
think it leads to a happier life.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I think so, and we'll talk about the purpose in just
a second.
But I just think that wholeidea, when I say public service,
it could be the Peace Corps.
The purpose in just a second.
But I just think that wholeidea when I say public service,
it could be the Peace Corps,vista could be any one of a
number of things, but the wholeidea is that you're giving back
to your country, or at leastyou're paying your dues.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah, you don't have to carry a rifle.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
That's exactly right, exactly right.
And the thing that and itstarted with the military I felt
a great sense of mission, beingin the military and having to
take care of my soldiers andthem taking care of me or
whatever.
And the whole thing witheducation, it was a
purpose-driven life.
I always had a sense of purposeand what was I doing?
(27:14):
I was helping, you know,nurture and educate and develop
the young people of America, andthat's a great feeling to do
that.
And, as I was saying, I wasjust writing this letter of
recommendation for a young womanwho's she's not she's
middle-aged now, but applyingfor the circuit court position.
And I get these kind of thingsall the time.
It makes you feel good, yeah,that you've helped somebody
(27:34):
along the way in their journey.
And so I never had any problemswith just it being about money.
Where I was working, I mean, Imade a good living, whatever but
there was a.
You know teaching and learningare why we're here.
That was the West Mission,right there.
Teaching and learning are whywe're here.
You know Lifelong learning,being of service, you know
Personal responsibility, allthose kind of character traits
(27:57):
that you kind of work on everyday with students and teachable
moments, yeah, that you kind ofwork on every day with students
and teachable moments.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, you know, there's evolution.
There's biological evolution,but I think there's also
evolution of ideas, and it'sthrough teaching people and
working with younger people isthe way we kind of help ideas
propagate and evolve.
Ideas, um, propagate and evolveand um and so, um, you know, I
(28:26):
want to thank you for not onlyyour service to the country, um,
but also to our community, andI know that you've made a much
bigger difference in the livesof the students in the community
, along with a lot of otherteachers out there, than you'll
ever know.
I know that personally I've hadplenty of teachers that have
made a huge difference in mylife that, to be honest, like
(28:49):
life moved on and I moved awayand I've never gotten to fully
thank, and even if I thank them,they wouldn't be able to feel
the full weight of what it meansto me.
And so I know you'll never knowthe weight, but it does feel so
good when your life pathcrosses somebody else's life
path and you make a positivedifference.
(29:10):
So thanks, dave.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
And I've had.
I've had many of them and Ifeel blessed for it and have led
a rich life and with all thesedifferent experiences, with
different people from all overthe world, and I'm a lucky guy.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
All worked out for me , yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
And you're an optimist too.
I know you choose to to look atthings through a positive light
and and, and you know, being inthe military and Vietnam is not
an easy thing, but I thinkyou've chosen to kind of frame
it as this is something thathelped me become a better person
and I think that's a true giftthat you can have to yourself to
(29:45):
kind of view light through thebest life possible.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, yeah, well, I got out of it physically and
emotionally unscathed and endedup with a profession that was
meaningful to me, and so I'vegot nothing but gratitude.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, thank you for your service, sir.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Thank you very much, doc, I appreciate it.
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