March 5, 2025 • 20 mins
What makes a healthcare experience truly life-changing? This week, we explore the impactful dynamics of hope and optimism in patient care with Dr. Jim Esther, an experienced rheumatologist. Delving deeply into the concept that positivity isn't just a nice-to-have, we illuminate how optimism can fundamentally reshape patient interactions and outcomes. As we share personal anecdotes and professional insights, we highlight strategies that healthcare providers can adopt to foster a supportive and uplifting environment for their patients.
We reflect on personal experiences that shaped our understanding of the healthcare journey, emphasizing how empathy is built through shared vulnerabilities. Each interaction offers unique insights, proving that hope is integral to navigating the complexities of health and healing. The episode goes beyond theory to reveal practical techniques aimed at transforming routine medical visits into meaningful exchanges.
While hope and optimism are essential, we navigate the crucial balance between fostering a positive outlook and maintaining honesty with patients about their conditions. This balanced approach ensures trust while encouraging the mindset needed for resilience during difficult times.
Join us as we challenge the conventional narratives surrounding patient care, examine the contagious effects of stress, and inspire a culture where positivity prevails. This discussion provides valuable takeaways for both healthcare practitioners and patients alike, reinforcing the belief that a little optimism can make a significant difference in how we approach life’s challenges. Tune in today and discover how to harness the power of hope in your life or professional practice!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, this is Jason Edwards and this is Doc
Discussions.
I'm here with my good friendand colleague, dr Jim.
Esther Jim is a rheumatologistand internal medicine physician.
Is that accurate?
That is perfect.
Yeah, now, jim, where are youfrom?
Are you from here in St Louis?
I am from St Louis, is thatright?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I did not get very far.
My brother and sister bothended up in North Carolina, but
I was a family member who stayedin town.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, very good, very good.
Yeah, st Luke's is a good place, good place to live.
It's a wonderful place to live.
When I think about you, I thinkabout somebody who's an
optimist and through ourinteractions.
Specifically, I remember onebig meeting we were in where
everybody seemed to be throwingtomatoes at me and you said hey,
you know what?
I have a little bit of hope.
(00:45):
Things are going to turn around.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Things are going to be okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
And there's actually some pretty good data.
They've done a few longitudinalstudies where they looked at
people who tried to practicehope and optimism and found that
they had better health outcomes, measurable differences in
their life and certainly intheir quality of life.
But I think that hope andoptimism is it's probably
(01:09):
something that we're born withto some degree, but it's
something that can be cultivatedtoo.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I think that optimism is a choice.
I do not think that optimism isa warm fuzzy feeling.
I think that you have to make aconscious decision to bring
something positive to yourinteractions.
And so, like, when you go intoan exam room, when you hit the
door, you don't hit the doornegative, you hit the door
positive.
You're there to be of serviceto another human being and you
(01:38):
want them to feel comfortable.
So the key is to make them feelcomfortable so that the
interaction goes better.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I agree, I agree, I agree, and usually people are,
especially if it's the firsttime meeting you.
You know they're nervous andthey're not.
It's an away game.
You know they're in your courtand some people have a great
aptitude at putting somebody atease by a smile, a handshake,
just their overall demeanor, andI think that makes a big
(02:05):
difference.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I think so too.
I think nobody gets up in themorning and says, gee, I can't
wait to go to the doctor.
No, I mean, they go forpreventive care, they go for a
problem.
You're there to provide aservice, to be kind and helpful,
and so you want to make themfeel comfortable, and then
everything just goes better.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, are there any specific techniques that you've
used or found useful as far ascultivating hope and optimism?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I always, from the beginning, I thought how do I
make being a doctor morepleasant for the people who were
coming into my office?
And so I always made a point ofsaying that the next
interaction was the mostimportant interaction of the day
, and I've done that for 35years.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
When I put my hand on the door to walk in, I'm
thinking this is important andthis is the most important thing
I'm going to be doing all day,and I do that all day long, yeah
.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah, you can definitely fall into kind of the
habit of saying, okay, this isjust another Tuesday at 2
o'clock, but for the patientit's not that oh no, and you
find that yourself.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
When you're a patient , you know you go in to see a
doctor and even for us, becausewe're doctors, you're still a
little bit on edge, for sure youknow You're thinking, hmm, so
when the guy makes you feelcomfortable or gal, it's a good
thing.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah, I specifically remember I was having chest pain
one time and I came into the ERand Craig Reese, our
cardiologist, was there and Iwas worried and he was in
control and I was worried and hejust he made, he was in control
.
He wasn't necessarily atouchy-feely, but he was just
totally in control of thesituation and it put my heart at
(03:53):
ease and that made a differenceand it made me a better doctor,
being a patient being a patientalways makes you a better
doctor.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
You know the different health experiences
that I have been through.
You know, paradoxically, itmakes you a better doctor when
you go back to work.
Yeah, and it just gives youmore empathy.
Even if you're trying to beempathetic to begin with, it
makes you even more empathetic.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, it's nothing but good.
It's kind of the differencebetween reading a book and
actually doing something, and Iagree with you that you can gain
a lot of value in being apatient.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
And so you know, recently you had a skin cancer
on your ear that we treated inmy department.
You did, you've done, somethingI've never done.
I've never undergone radiation.
I mean, I've treated a lot ofpeople with radiation, but how
was that?
Well, it was creepy.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
to be honest with you , because, like I'm in the
business, I mean I've been inthe business for a long time now
and a while.
And so, yeah, it was a differentexperience.
I mean, when you're on thereceiving end of healthcare,
it's a different sort ofexperience.
And so, even though it was arelatively minor radiation for a
(05:07):
relatively minor cutaneousbasal cell, it was still an
experience.
And so when they put you on thetable and they put you in the
restraining mask so that youcan't move, obviously you're
very precise.
You're a great department,wonderful department.
But, it's a creepy experience,and so you sit there and you
(05:29):
kind of meditate and pray andkind of go through it.
And now when people say to mewhat happens in radiation
therapy, I said, funny, youshould ask that because I can
then explain it to them whatthey're going to be going
through.
And the people were nothing butdelightful.
They were wonderful, nicepeople.
But I think that you can tellpatients more having gone
(05:53):
through some of this yourself.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I do.
Yeah, there's certainly adesensitization with it.
Radiation is typically givenfive days a week for several
weeks and I always tell patientsthe first two or three
treatments are kind of rough,but then it becomes just like
eating a ham sandwich.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I mean, it's no problem as far as the anxiety
associated with this and thepeople there are so good and
they're so kind and you're sokind, and so the whole
experience is really positiveand plus, I got a great outcome.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
But no matter who you are, you're going to be nervous
because you've never done itbefore.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
If you're not nervous , you're lying.
It's kind of like if you aren'ta little bit nervous as they
put you on the table, you'refibbing.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, you know, when we talk about hope and optimism,
there has to you know kind ofthe light and the darkness of it
there has to be an inherentadversity where it makes hope
and optimism a necessity.
And I think you know everybodyhas times in their life where
they have something that happensto them, no matter who you are.
(06:58):
You know King Charles was justdiagnosed with a cancer and you
know even the King of England,you know, has to deal with, you
know, think, somebody who haseverything.
They still have to deal withadversity, which is inherent to
life.
And I think that's when it's soimportant to you want to be
realistic, you want to be honestabout what's going on, but it
pays to hope for the bestpossible outcome.
(07:22):
The alternative is, you knowyou live your life in misery and
you know the two metrics thatreally matter are the length of
your life and the quality ofyour life in misery.
And the two metrics that reallymatter are the length of your
life and the quality of yourlife.
And if you want to optimize thequality of your life, then you
should have a little hope,because it's hard to have a good
day if there's no hope.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Oh, I think that's exactly right.
Again, being positive is achoice.
It's not something.
You can bring positivity to asituation, even if it's a bad
situation.
The same time, you always wantto be straightforward and candid
.
You know the one thing younever want to do is to give
false hope.
(07:57):
On the other hand, you have tolet people know that you're with
them and that you care and thatyou're gonna do everything you
can to make their situationbetter yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think you know probably every doctor has seen
some example where false hope isgiven and it always ends up
horrible.
And you know you lose trust tooand you cannot have that in the
doctor-patient relationship.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
No, that's exactly right.
I mean you can deliverdifficult news in a way that's
difficult news, in a way that'sI wouldn't say positive, but you
say you deliver it in the mostmatter of fact way possible and
say this is the plan that wehave going forward.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, and you try to do it with some compassion and
show that you care, show thatyou're a human being and then,
yeah, you're right, Givingsomebody the next steps is
typically helpful.
In my experience, when somebodyis dealing with kind of a new
adversity, it typically takesthem about two or three weeks to
kind of come to grips with whatthey're dealing with.
(09:00):
And I've kind of found the samething in my own life, even
knowing that that's what I seein other patients' life, Even
knowing that it still doesn'tchange the two or three week
time span before I becomedesensitized to my new normal
and what I see in otherpatients' life, Even knowing
that it still doesn't change thetwo or three-week time span
before I become desensitized to.
You know my new normal and whatI'm dealing with.
But people adapt.
I mean they adapt to prison,they adapt to horrible
situations.
People can adapt to almostanything, I think.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I think so I think that the big thing is to be kind
and candid.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, yeah, and straightforward and honest.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
You know you just want to be real straightforward
with people.
But also, like I know, you dothe same thing when you hit the
door and you walk in the room.
You walk in.
You know friendly.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, you know, I learned this at a young age when
I was like in my early twentiesme and my buddies we would.
We would go out to the bar totry to meet some nice girls and
I learned, when you walk in thedoor, have a smile on your face,
it's going to help your odds,and so it's a little bit
different venue, but people likepeople who are hopeful and warm
(10:07):
and have a smile on your face,that goes a long way.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah.
I think, so, and when you runinto somebody who's having a bad
day, you know you run intonegativity.
Sometimes, the most importantthing is never return negativity
with negativity yeah.
You return negativity withneutrality, yeah, and you don't
engage, otherwise you get anescalation.
You don't want that.
You want things to beality,yeah, and and you don't engage,
(10:31):
otherwise you get an escalation.
You don't want that.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
You want things to be cool, yeah, and we've all been
kind of um, uh, have our egosexhausted from, um, whether it
was physical labor orpsychological stress.
Where we're you're kind of andand when you play poker, they
call it on tilt.
When you're when your mind'syou know not quite right, and we
all deserve a little bit ofslack and a little bit of grace
when we're we're not doing sowell, and so I think that's
(10:53):
that's the right way to do it.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I think that's true.
Stress and fatigue are the arethe enemies, and you just have
to be careful about that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, and we're all prone to it and, and it's, it's
you try to minimize.
As I checked, we're all human,yeah, yeah, yeah, and we deserve
to treat each other with alittle bit of grace.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
A little bit of grace is a very good phrase, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
In my experience and tell me if yours is any
different.
Bringing up to somebody theirown negativity, that's kind of
treacherous waters.
You're unlikely to besuccessful in that endeavor.
But what's your take on?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
it.
Yeah, you know, one of thelines I mean is what you give,
you keep, what you keep, youlose.
And when you die, you take withyou only what you gave away.
And so I think that the worst,I call it engaging Like have you
read Sun Tzu the Art of War?
Okay, no.
(11:54):
But Sun Tzu says deflect.
And so when I run into anegative person, I don't think
engage, I'm not going to fightwith this person, I'm going to
deflect.
And so I'm just not going to doit.
And you have some people.
They just can't wait to getangry and you can tell it's like
(12:14):
something that they really wantto do, and you don't give it to
them, you deflect, you say,well, I wish you the best and
get back to me, and you justwon't deflect.
And then they say somethingeven more insulting and you say,
well, thanks for sharing.
Well, then they realize thatyou're not going to engage with
(12:35):
them on an angry level.
If they want to engage with youon an intellectual level,
that's swell, but I call itdon't engage.
If somebody wants to have afight, they're going to have to
find somebody else.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
People walk.
There are, we all know, peoplewho walk around in battle mode.
They walk around half cockedand it's like, in general, kind
of stay away from those people.
It's it seems like almost anaddiction with some people and
that they, like you said, theyalmost long for that state and
are looking for a fight and Isuppose there are some kind of
(13:08):
few circumstances where thatkind of attitude is helpful.
But you know, that's a lot of,that's a lot of cortisol rushing
through your veins.
It's not healthy for you andanxiety is contagious.
You know, if you go and telleverybody, you know you work
with all your worries and fearsor anger can be contagious too
and it's like you don't want tospread that can be contagious
(13:32):
too and it's like you don't wantto spread that Um and and um
and in a way you know whether asas a spouse or as a parent um,
or as a healthcare worker, youknow part of our job is to kind
of um, calm the system down.
You know modulate, you know thehighs and the lows, um and um,
and so, uh, but that's tough andsome people just do have a
negative bend to them and Ithink the only thing you can do
(13:53):
is maybe try to lead by example,but it's tough.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, but I call it don't engage.
Yeah, I just don't.
I mean, and if they want tohave a fight, I make it clear,
they're going to have to findsomebody else to have a fight
with.
And you don't have to be apatsy, that doesn't make you a
pushover.
Be a patsy, that doesn't makeyou a pushover.
You say, gee, with all duerespect, I disagree with you,
but if they want to have a fight, they're going to have to find
somebody else.
(14:17):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So we've kind of covered the hope and optimism.
Are there any other topics thatyou would like to talk about or
anything that you're thinkingof that we haven't covered here?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Gee, I don't let me think.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
What's going on with your practice right now?
Are you accepting patients?
Are you full, Well?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I'm full right now.
Recently I had two surgeries,which was a great surprise to me
, but I had a back surgery and ahip surgery within a very short
period of time, and I know thisis going to sound bizarre, but
I consider it a positiveexperience because not only was
(15:06):
I really on the delivery side ofhealthcare, but it just gives
you a different perspective oneverything.
And so, you know, I hadorthopedic and back surgery and
it was fine.
Everything turned out great.
But it's a learning experienceand you learn to appreciate the
(15:28):
people who are your caregiversand you learn also to appreciate
being healthy and able to goback to work.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So one thing I've seen when patients have a big
surgery like that is that youknow, usually they kind of know
it's going to be a battleafterwards, and so for the first
couple of weeks they're kind ofin the fight, but then around
week three or four they're kindof will to keep pushing Peters
out a little bit.
Did you have any of that, ornot so much?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I really didn't.
I mean, I just really was.
This may sound bizarre too, butI really like being at work.
I really really like being atwork, and so my whole goal was
to get well as fast as I couldso I could get back to work.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, when we had the ice storm last week and you
know, my car slid off mydriveway and so I couldn't get
to work and it was not a fun day, I start going stir crazy and I
realize, like never even thinkabout retirement, it's a
horrible idea.
Like, never even think aboutretirement, it's a horrible idea
.
But work, you know it does.
(16:34):
It's a place where you matterand it's a place where you know
you have a place in this world.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And that's a great thing.
I think that every life has aministry, you know, and I think
that this is such a wonderfulhospital and such a wonderful
place, and I think that's whyyou just love being here.
Everybody I see in this placeloves being here.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And most of us are friends.
I mean, it's like a small town,so we know each other.
Which?
is great to have longitudinalrelationships with people over
time.
Yes, it really is my job, myhouse, I have a roof over my
(17:30):
head.
Not everybody has that and so Ikind of go down that list.
And then the other thing thatpeople find helpful is reframing
things.
And so when you say optimism isa choice, instead of saying you
have a 10% chance of the cancercoming back, reframe it as
there's a 90% chance the cancerdoes not come back, and that's
kind of a more optimisticviewpoint.
(17:52):
And then having purpose to life,like what you just talked about
, like I need to be a doctor,it's my life's ministry.
You know, purpose in life meansso much.
As far as quality of life,harvard did a nice longitudinal
study I think it was like thegraduating class of 1949 or
something like that that theyfollowed throughout their lives
(18:13):
and they found there was a fewdifferent findings.
But having a purpose to life,having good friends, avoiding
significant alcohol intake, allthose things led to a much
better quality of life, whichmakes sense.
But having a purpose to yourbeing and that alone can get you
through tough times oh, I thinkthat's true.
Yeah, I think that's true.
(18:34):
There was an author who wasvery, very sick and he had
written half of his book and itwas so important to him to
finish the book that he was inthe ICU for a long time.
But he had to finish this bookand that always stuck with me.
That you know, having projectsand things to do, can, can, will
you through the tough times.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
That's true, yeah that's true.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Well, jim, it's always great talking to you.
I want you to know from apersonal standpoint that I look
up to you and when I think aboutyou, I think of somebody who
who hopes for the best, and andmy, my wish is that I can become
better at doing that, just likeyou.
So thanks for your positiveinfluence that you spread
(19:19):
through not only your patientsbut through the other health
care workers here at St Luke's.
I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Well, you're a wonderful human being, so it's
an honor to be here with you.
Yeah, thank you, sir, thank you.
Hello, this is Jason Edwards and this is Doc
Discussions.
I'm here with my good friendand colleague, dr Jim.
Esther Jim is a rheumatologistand internal medicine physician.
Is that accurate?
That is perfect.
Yeah, now, jim, where are youfrom?
Are you from here in St Louis?
I am from St Louis, is thatright?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I did not get very far.
My brother and sister bothended up in North Carolina, but
I was a family member who stayedin town.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, very good, very good.
Yeah, st Luke's is a good place, good place to live.
It's a wonderful place to live.
When I think about you, I thinkabout somebody who's an
optimist and through ourinteractions.
Specifically, I remember onebig meeting we were in where
everybody seemed to be throwingtomatoes at me and you said hey,
you know what?
I have a little bit of hope.
(00:45):
Things are going to turn around.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Things are going to be okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
And there's actually some pretty good data.
They've done a few longitudinalstudies where they looked at
people who tried to practicehope and optimism and found that
they had better health outcomes, measurable differences in
their life and certainly intheir quality of life.
But I think that hope andoptimism is it's probably
(01:09):
something that we're born withto some degree, but it's
something that can be cultivatedtoo.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I think that optimism is a choice.
I do not think that optimism isa warm fuzzy feeling.
I think that you have to make aconscious decision to bring
something positive to yourinteractions.
And so, like, when you go intoan exam room, when you hit the
door, you don't hit the doornegative, you hit the door
positive.
You're there to be of serviceto another human being and you
(01:38):
want them to feel comfortable.
So the key is to make them feelcomfortable so that the
interaction goes better.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I agree, I agree, I agree, and usually people are,
especially if it's the firsttime meeting you.
You know they're nervous andthey're not.
It's an away game.
You know they're in your courtand some people have a great
aptitude at putting somebody atease by a smile, a handshake,
just their overall demeanor, andI think that makes a big
(02:05):
difference.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I think so too.
I think nobody gets up in themorning and says, gee, I can't
wait to go to the doctor.
No, I mean, they go forpreventive care, they go for a
problem.
You're there to provide aservice, to be kind and helpful,
and so you want to make themfeel comfortable, and then
everything just goes better.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, are there any specific techniques that you've
used or found useful as far ascultivating hope and optimism?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I always, from the beginning, I thought how do I
make being a doctor morepleasant for the people who were
coming into my office?
And so I always made a point ofsaying that the next
interaction was the mostimportant interaction of the day
, and I've done that for 35years.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
When I put my hand on the door to walk in, I'm
thinking this is important andthis is the most important thing
I'm going to be doing all day,and I do that all day long, yeah
.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah, you can definitely fall into kind of the
habit of saying, okay, this isjust another Tuesday at 2
o'clock, but for the patientit's not that oh no, and you
find that yourself.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
When you're a patient , you know you go in to see a
doctor and even for us, becausewe're doctors, you're still a
little bit on edge, for sure youknow You're thinking, hmm, so
when the guy makes you feelcomfortable or gal, it's a good
thing.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah, I specifically remember I was having chest pain
one time and I came into the ERand Craig Reese, our
cardiologist, was there and Iwas worried and he was in
control and I was worried and hejust he made, he was in control
.
He wasn't necessarily atouchy-feely, but he was just
totally in control of thesituation and it put my heart at
(03:53):
ease and that made a differenceand it made me a better doctor,
being a patient being a patientalways makes you a better
doctor.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
You know the different health experiences
that I have been through.
You know, paradoxically, itmakes you a better doctor when
you go back to work.
Yeah, and it just gives youmore empathy.
Even if you're trying to beempathetic to begin with, it
makes you even more empathetic.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, it's nothing but good.
It's kind of the differencebetween reading a book and
actually doing something, and Iagree with you that you can gain
a lot of value in being apatient.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
And so you know, recently you had a skin cancer
on your ear that we treated inmy department.
You did, you've done, somethingI've never done.
I've never undergone radiation.
I mean, I've treated a lot ofpeople with radiation, but how
was that?
Well, it was creepy.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
to be honest with you , because, like I'm in the
business, I mean I've been inthe business for a long time now
and a while.
And so, yeah, it was a differentexperience.
I mean, when you're on thereceiving end of healthcare,
it's a different sort ofexperience.
And so, even though it was arelatively minor radiation for a
(05:07):
relatively minor cutaneousbasal cell, it was still an
experience.
And so when they put you on thetable and they put you in the
restraining mask so that youcan't move, obviously you're
very precise.
You're a great department,wonderful department.
But, it's a creepy experience,and so you sit there and you
(05:29):
kind of meditate and pray andkind of go through it.
And now when people say to mewhat happens in radiation
therapy, I said, funny, youshould ask that because I can
then explain it to them whatthey're going to be going
through.
And the people were nothing butdelightful.
They were wonderful, nicepeople.
But I think that you can tellpatients more having gone
(05:53):
through some of this yourself.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I do.
Yeah, there's certainly adesensitization with it.
Radiation is typically givenfive days a week for several
weeks and I always tell patientsthe first two or three
treatments are kind of rough,but then it becomes just like
eating a ham sandwich.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I mean, it's no problem as far as the anxiety
associated with this and thepeople there are so good and
they're so kind and you're sokind, and so the whole
experience is really positiveand plus, I got a great outcome.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
But no matter who you are, you're going to be nervous
because you've never done itbefore.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
If you're not nervous , you're lying.
It's kind of like if you aren'ta little bit nervous as they
put you on the table, you'refibbing.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, you know, when we talk about hope and optimism,
there has to you know kind ofthe light and the darkness of it
there has to be an inherentadversity where it makes hope
and optimism a necessity.
And I think you know everybodyhas times in their life where
they have something that happensto them, no matter who you are.
(06:58):
You know King Charles was justdiagnosed with a cancer and you
know even the King of England,you know, has to deal with, you
know, think, somebody who haseverything.
They still have to deal withadversity, which is inherent to
life.
And I think that's when it's soimportant to you want to be
realistic, you want to be honestabout what's going on, but it
pays to hope for the bestpossible outcome.
(07:22):
The alternative is, you knowyou live your life in misery and
you know the two metrics thatreally matter are the length of
your life and the quality ofyour life in misery.
And the two metrics that reallymatter are the length of your
life and the quality of yourlife.
And if you want to optimize thequality of your life, then you
should have a little hope,because it's hard to have a good
day if there's no hope.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Oh, I think that's exactly right.
Again, being positive is achoice.
It's not something.
You can bring positivity to asituation, even if it's a bad
situation.
The same time, you always wantto be straightforward and candid
.
You know the one thing younever want to do is to give
false hope.
(07:57):
On the other hand, you have tolet people know that you're with
them and that you care and thatyou're gonna do everything you
can to make their situationbetter yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think you know probably every doctor has seen
some example where false hope isgiven and it always ends up
horrible.
And you know you lose trust tooand you cannot have that in the
doctor-patient relationship.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
No, that's exactly right.
I mean you can deliverdifficult news in a way that's
difficult news, in a way that'sI wouldn't say positive, but you
say you deliver it in the mostmatter of fact way possible and
say this is the plan that wehave going forward.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, and you try to do it with some compassion and
show that you care, show thatyou're a human being and then,
yeah, you're right, Givingsomebody the next steps is
typically helpful.
In my experience, when somebodyis dealing with kind of a new
adversity, it typically takesthem about two or three weeks to
kind of come to grips with whatthey're dealing with.
(09:00):
And I've kind of found the samething in my own life, even
knowing that that's what I seein other patients' life, Even
knowing that it still doesn'tchange the two or three week
time span before I becomedesensitized to my new normal
and what I see in otherpatients' life, Even knowing
that it still doesn't change thetwo or three-week time span
before I become desensitized to.
You know my new normal and whatI'm dealing with.
But people adapt.
I mean they adapt to prison,they adapt to horrible
situations.
People can adapt to almostanything, I think.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I think so I think that the big thing is to be kind
and candid.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, yeah, and straightforward and honest.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
You know you just want to be real straightforward
with people.
But also, like I know, you dothe same thing when you hit the
door and you walk in the room.
You walk in.
You know friendly.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, you know, I learned this at a young age when
I was like in my early twentiesme and my buddies we would.
We would go out to the bar totry to meet some nice girls and
I learned, when you walk in thedoor, have a smile on your face,
it's going to help your odds,and so it's a little bit
different venue, but people likepeople who are hopeful and warm
(10:07):
and have a smile on your face,that goes a long way.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah.
I think, so, and when you runinto somebody who's having a bad
day, you know you run intonegativity.
Sometimes, the most importantthing is never return negativity
with negativity yeah.
You return negativity withneutrality, yeah, and you don't
engage, otherwise you get anescalation.
You don't want that.
You want things to beality,yeah, and and you don't engage,
(10:31):
otherwise you get an escalation.
You don't want that.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
You want things to be cool, yeah, and we've all been
kind of um, uh, have our egosexhausted from, um, whether it
was physical labor orpsychological stress.
Where we're you're kind of andand when you play poker, they
call it on tilt.
When you're when your mind'syou know not quite right, and we
all deserve a little bit ofslack and a little bit of grace
when we're we're not doing sowell, and so I think that's
(10:53):
that's the right way to do it.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I think that's true.
Stress and fatigue are the arethe enemies, and you just have
to be careful about that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, and we're all prone to it and, and it's, it's
you try to minimize.
As I checked, we're all human,yeah, yeah, yeah, and we deserve
to treat each other with alittle bit of grace.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
A little bit of grace is a very good phrase, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
In my experience and tell me if yours is any
different.
Bringing up to somebody theirown negativity, that's kind of
treacherous waters.
You're unlikely to besuccessful in that endeavor.
But what's your take on?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
it.
Yeah, you know, one of thelines I mean is what you give,
you keep, what you keep, youlose.
And when you die, you take withyou only what you gave away.
And so I think that the worst,I call it engaging Like have you
read Sun Tzu the Art of War?
Okay, no.
(11:54):
But Sun Tzu says deflect.
And so when I run into anegative person, I don't think
engage, I'm not going to fightwith this person, I'm going to
deflect.
And so I'm just not going to doit.
And you have some people.
They just can't wait to getangry and you can tell it's like
(12:14):
something that they really wantto do, and you don't give it to
them, you deflect, you say,well, I wish you the best and
get back to me, and you justwon't deflect.
And then they say somethingeven more insulting and you say,
well, thanks for sharing.
Well, then they realize thatyou're not going to engage with
(12:35):
them on an angry level.
If they want to engage with youon an intellectual level,
that's swell, but I call itdon't engage.
If somebody wants to have afight, they're going to have to
find somebody else.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
People walk.
There are, we all know, peoplewho walk around in battle mode.
They walk around half cockedand it's like, in general, kind
of stay away from those people.
It's it seems like almost anaddiction with some people and
that they, like you said, theyalmost long for that state and
are looking for a fight and Isuppose there are some kind of
(13:08):
few circumstances where thatkind of attitude is helpful.
But you know, that's a lot of,that's a lot of cortisol rushing
through your veins.
It's not healthy for you andanxiety is contagious.
You know, if you go and telleverybody, you know you work
with all your worries and fearsor anger can be contagious too
and it's like you don't want tospread that can be contagious
(13:32):
too and it's like you don't wantto spread that Um and and um
and in a way you know whether asas a spouse or as a parent um,
or as a healthcare worker, youknow part of our job is to kind
of um, calm the system down.
You know modulate, you know thehighs and the lows, um and um,
and so, uh, but that's tough andsome people just do have a
negative bend to them and Ithink the only thing you can do
(13:53):
is maybe try to lead by example,but it's tough.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, but I call it don't engage.
Yeah, I just don't.
I mean, and if they want tohave a fight, I make it clear,
they're going to have to findsomebody else to have a fight
with.
And you don't have to be apatsy, that doesn't make you a
pushover.
Be a patsy, that doesn't makeyou a pushover.
You say, gee, with all duerespect, I disagree with you,
but if they want to have a fight, they're going to have to find
somebody else.
(14:17):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So we've kind of covered the hope and optimism.
Are there any other topics thatyou would like to talk about or
anything that you're thinkingof that we haven't covered here?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Gee, I don't let me think.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
What's going on with your practice right now?
Are you accepting patients?
Are you full, Well?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I'm full right now.
Recently I had two surgeries,which was a great surprise to me
, but I had a back surgery and ahip surgery within a very short
period of time, and I know thisis going to sound bizarre, but
I consider it a positiveexperience because not only was
(15:06):
I really on the delivery side ofhealthcare, but it just gives
you a different perspective oneverything.
And so, you know, I hadorthopedic and back surgery and
it was fine.
Everything turned out great.
But it's a learning experienceand you learn to appreciate the
(15:28):
people who are your caregiversand you learn also to appreciate
being healthy and able to goback to work.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So one thing I've seen when patients have a big
surgery like that is that youknow, usually they kind of know
it's going to be a battleafterwards, and so for the first
couple of weeks they're kind ofin the fight, but then around
week three or four they're kindof will to keep pushing Peters
out a little bit.
Did you have any of that, ornot so much?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I really didn't.
I mean, I just really was.
This may sound bizarre too, butI really like being at work.
I really really like being atwork, and so my whole goal was
to get well as fast as I couldso I could get back to work.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, when we had the ice storm last week and you
know, my car slid off mydriveway and so I couldn't get
to work and it was not a fun day, I start going stir crazy and I
realize, like never even thinkabout retirement, it's a
horrible idea.
Like, never even think aboutretirement, it's a horrible idea
.
But work, you know it does.
(16:34):
It's a place where you matterand it's a place where you know
you have a place in this world.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And that's a great thing.
I think that every life has aministry, you know, and I think
that this is such a wonderfulhospital and such a wonderful
place, and I think that's whyyou just love being here.
Everybody I see in this placeloves being here.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And most of us are friends.
I mean, it's like a small town,so we know each other.
Which?
is great to have longitudinalrelationships with people over
time.
Yes, it really is my job, myhouse, I have a roof over my
(17:30):
head.
Not everybody has that and so Ikind of go down that list.
And then the other thing thatpeople find helpful is reframing
things.
And so when you say optimism isa choice, instead of saying you
have a 10% chance of the cancercoming back, reframe it as
there's a 90% chance the cancerdoes not come back, and that's
kind of a more optimisticviewpoint.
(17:52):
And then having purpose to life,like what you just talked about
, like I need to be a doctor,it's my life's ministry.
You know, purpose in life meansso much.
As far as quality of life,harvard did a nice longitudinal
study I think it was like thegraduating class of 1949 or
something like that that theyfollowed throughout their lives
(18:13):
and they found there was a fewdifferent findings.
But having a purpose to life,having good friends, avoiding
significant alcohol intake, allthose things led to a much
better quality of life, whichmakes sense.
But having a purpose to yourbeing and that alone can get you
through tough times oh, I thinkthat's true.
Yeah, I think that's true.
(18:34):
There was an author who wasvery, very sick and he had
written half of his book and itwas so important to him to
finish the book that he was inthe ICU for a long time.
But he had to finish this bookand that always stuck with me.
That you know, having projectsand things to do, can, can, will
you through the tough times.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
That's true, yeah that's true.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Well, jim, it's always great talking to you.
I want you to know from apersonal standpoint that I look
up to you and when I think aboutyou, I think of somebody who
who hopes for the best, and andmy, my wish is that I can become
better at doing that, just likeyou.
So thanks for your positiveinfluence that you spread
(19:19):
through not only your patientsbut through the other health
care workers here at St Luke's.
I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Well, you're a wonderful human being, so it's
an honor to be here with you.
Yeah, thank you, sir, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com