May 29, 2025 • 39 mins
New York City — Ben takes on the Big Apple and a long walk with filmmaker Matt Wolf, all by himself. This episode features a deep dive into Matt Wolf’s career and approach — from his days as a gay teen activist to his new two part series, Pee-wee As Himself, premiering on HBO Max. Matt leads Ben through the streets of the Lower East Side while sharing insights into his unique approach to doc filmmaking, the power of archival footage, and the importance of finishing what you start.
00:00 Introduction and First Impressions
00:44 Technical Difficulties and First Steps
01:18 Exploring the Neighborhood
03:11 Meeting Matt Wolf
05:14 Matt Wolf's Early Career
08:16 The Journey to Filmmaking
14:35 Reflecting on Success and Challenges
16:19 Finding New Stories
17:51 Navigating Construction Noise
18:26 The Art of Documentary Filmmaking
18:59 The Importance of Archival Material
20:56 Pitching and Funding Projects
23:20 Current Inspirations and New Projects
28:15 Challenges in the Documentary Industry
33:06 Passion for Filmmaking
35:29 Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers
36:50 Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Okay, I am walking up about to meet,uh, filmmaker Matt Wolf, and there's
a lot of firsts going on here.
This is the first time thatI'm recording without Keith.
I'm, I'm also in New York, which is nota first, but a first for our podcast.
So, um, let's see how this goes.
I, I really looking forward to connectingwith Matt, big fan of his work.
(00:23):
And I want to hear, uh,more about his process.
So, uh, here we go.
This is my interview, my walk andtalk with filmmaker Matt Wolf.
On your left,
you're listening to DocWalk with Ben and Keith.
(00:44):
Okay, recording.
Wait, no, I just turned it off.
Sorry.
Oh, I thought that was record.
Let's see.
The red one is, should be record.
Let's see.
Did I hold it too long?
I don't know.
I'm just getting to knowthese, so if you just tap it.
There we go.
And then now you should,
yeah.
Great.
Okay.
(01:04):
Alright, here we go.
We're off.
Trying to hold it like undermy face in unflattering way.
Well, I don't think, uh, Idon't think that's possible.
Oh.
Shush.
I want, I need to flip this camera aroundjust to see like your building is, yeah.
Beautiful.
It's really wild.
(01:25):
This courtyard.
Gorgeous.
Yeah.
It's like a Melrose plate.
Hey Mark, how are you?
Oh God.
Um, yeah, it's a Melrose plate.
I mean, all my friends live here.
That is really incredible.
Yeah.
I, um, did you I dropped off, uh,equipment with actually another
(01:46):
filmmaker, Sierra Pettingill.
Okay.
Who was dating someone wholived here at the time and.
Um, I saw the courtyard 'cause it doesn'tlook that exciting from the outside.
It's like, what, what is this place?
Yeah.
And then, uh, I walked over here 'causethis is, we're in a weird neighborhood
in Manhattan that people don't go to.
(02:07):
Yeah.
Where are we?
What, what is the neighborhood?
Just like Lower East.
East, east side.
Okay.
And our park is under construction,but I'll take you to, uh.
Uh, I'll take you to a weirdhaphazard section of the
park that we can walk around.
Um, and, uh, and I came backand I stocked the building for
(02:33):
years, and then Oh, you did?
So
you were like, I'm gonnalive in this building.
I'm gonna,
well, I'm obsessed with the building.
Yeah.
Do you?
And, uh, I, uh, over time gotother people to move into it and.
More friends have now movedinto this neighborhood.
And so, you know, I have what theycall a community, but like, you
(02:58):
know, the, the old school kindwhere everybody lives together.
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
So it's commune.
Yeah.
You're treating your own commun situation.
I'm creating my own norc, naturallyoccurring retirement community.
So I guess we should do a setuphere we are, uh, walking along.
Uh.
The sidewalk here in the Lower East Side.
(03:20):
Uh uh, and I'm with Matt Wolf.
Hello.
Hello?
Um, you and I met atsome point, I don't know.
Yeah.
Maybe
eight, nine.
I, I don't remember.
When did, what was it, whendid wild Combination come out?
That came out in 2008, so
2008.
Okay.
Long
time ago.
Yeah.
Winnebago man was 2009.
Yeah.
(03:40):
And we did a, so we
probably met at a filmfestival around that time.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I've been a longtime admirer of your work.
I, when I reached out to you, I toldyou that wild combination is still one
of those movies that sticks with me.
Oh.
And I think about how you used archivalfootage in that, where you were
like animating over the top of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, the poster image is like sostrong and kind of seared in my brain.
(04:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had no idea who Arthur Russell was,Uhhuh, and he's now like his music.
Is such a part of my, yeah.
My music listening.
Yeah, yeah.
Vocabulary these days that, uh, I feellike that film was really inspirational
and also like, made a big impact on me.
And so I've kind of followedyour work ever since.
(04:26):
Thanks.
Um, and so you are, you havejust made the Peewee Herman?
I have, yeah.
It's coming out very soon.
In the next uh, two months.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
And it's on HBO.
It'll be on HBO.
Yeah.
And it premiered at Sundance, right?
Yep.
Great.
Yeah,
we were actually thererecording the podcast.
(04:49):
Oh, I'm forgetting that podcast.
Podcast
leading the way.
Yes you are.
I'm following you.
I have no idea where we're going.
We're going on my route.
'cause my park is underconstruction, so it's a weird route.
Oh, so you do this walk a lot, huh?
Yeah, I'm a big walker and talker.
Great.
Well.
That's what we're doing.
That's perfect for our podcast.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How many films have youhad Premier at Sundays?
(05:09):
I don't know.
Between shorts and features, maybe five.
Cool.
Yeah.
So tell me, uh, how you got started.
Like where, where did you, how, howdid you come to the idea that you could
make documentary films for a living?
Well, I have like a weird storywith that in that I was a gay
(05:30):
teen activist in the media.
In the late nineties in NorthernCalifornia, and there was the
documentary made about Me and Oh, what
Really?
Yeah.
Where, where did you grow up?
Like where was it?
I
grew up in San Jose.
Okay.
And, uh, and this is like MatthewShepherd, Ellen DeGeneres coming out time.
Okay.
(05:50):
And, uh, it was just being like a gayyouth was a hot button issue at the
time, and I got like a scholarship and.
Uh, this doc short documentary was madeabout me and I hated the experience.
And then I got written up in thenewspaper complaining about the
documentary, and the woman wrote mesaying, I loved this project and I'm
(06:15):
really troubled that you had a negativeex. I was like, I'm a fucking teenager.
Like, I'm just being angstyand complaining, like,
and how, how old were you?
No, at that then I was probably 17.
17, 17 or 18.
And how did they find you?
Like how did, who reached out?
Like what was that process like?
Well,
(06:35):
I was in the media, I was doing alot of media for gay youth activism
and I think I, no, I applied for afull scholarship from Parade Magazine
and uh, now we're walking over a,
yeah, we should
cloud, rickety bridge.
We should explain where we are.
(06:56):
This is very,
we're in a mixture dynamic.
Pedestrian bridge to a commuter ferrythat connect links up to the waterfront
park near my house that is currentlyincomplete, but we're going to the part
that is open that I like to walk around.
(07:17):
Yeah.
This is beautiful.
And so this is the East River here,
right?
Yeah, it's the east river
coming up on a very fast moving tugboat.
Yeah.
Wow.
I love watching that.
Well, that's a ferry, but I love watching.
Oh, oh, I haven't been over here.
I want to see their progress.
That's, that was this seventies, kindof post atomic, uh, amphitheater.
(07:37):
And we hung out there every weekendand everyone would just meet there
and they raised the park, uh, six toeight feet for flood resiliency and
everybody protested, including me.
But now, you know.
I'm just dying for this park to open, butthat's, that's the amphitheater area and
I haven't been on this bridge in a second.
(07:59):
And they're making,they're like moving fast.
Yeah, so they are.
It looks, hopefully thissummer I've got my spot back.
It looks like it's gonna be pretty nice.
I mean, I don't knowwhat I'm talking about.
Sure.
The trees are not mature,so there'll be no shade.
But you know, Biggers can't be choosers.
Well, okay, so you, so you had adocumentary made about you and did
(08:20):
you feel like it didn't represent you
actively?
I, I was forced to talk in thesesound bites, and I think in general
I was feeling like a kind ofposter child and I was good at it,
but I thought I'd be like a gay.
Political activist profession,like a professional gay activist.
(08:41):
But I, you know, I gotinto independent film.
I went to see, welcome to theDollhouse at the Indie Theater.
I worked at the Goth coffee shopand you know, the rest was history.
And, and, and so I, I fantasized here.
We can snake around this part.
It's nice.
Okay.
Uh.
I wanted to be a filmmaker.
(09:02):
I wanted to move to New York since I was,you know, 14, no way younger, like 10.
I wanted to be like, you know, ToddHanes or something, and I got a
full scholarship and went to NYUFilm School, and then I hated it.
I hated NYU, but I met a lotof great people who I will
(09:26):
go on to collaborate with.
Uh, I found a mentor inthe filmmaker, Kelly Regar.
Oh wow.
And uh, you know, at the time I was sortof anti school and I joined this video
activist collective called Paper Tiger.
Oh yeah.
(09:46):
Paper Tiger Television.
I remember that.
Right.
And I did a bunch of projects with 'em,and I got into the experimental film
world, largely through this festival.
Called the Mix Experimental GayLesbian Film Festival, which has
evolved into something else now.
But,
and, and to stop you really quick, thePaper Tiger was a public access show.
(10:06):
Yeah,
yeah, correct.
Yeah.
Was it one show or was it acollective that made a bunch of shows?
It was a collective that did a lot ofpublic access stuff, but other stuff too.
And we, uh, I was involved inhelping present films made by queer
youth, like it was an extension ofthe activism I did in high school.
But in a experimental activistdocumentary kind of space.
(10:33):
So I was going to this mainstream filmschool doing this stuff at Paper Tiger,
kind of in community with a lot of visualartists and experimental filmmakers.
And increasingly it was like,I don't wanna make features.
I don't want to be that kind of filmmaker.
And I. Um, you know, leftschool with that feeling.
(11:00):
But I had these amazing collaborators likeJody Lee Lipes and Lance Edmonds, and Kyle
Martin, and I wanted to make a film aboutArthur Russell, and I thought it would be
kind of this environmental video record.
In which it would be a multi-channelinstallation and every channel
(11:20):
would be like a different trackfeaturing an aspect of his story.
And I started to interview peopleand as I was doing it, Jody was like,
you know you're making a documentary.
I said, I'm not making a documentary.
And he was like, yeah, you are.
And then I was like, Welch,it's not, it's short.
It's like, why not?
Why isn't it a feature documentary?
I was just like, 'cause it's not.
(11:42):
And then it was, and I didn't havereal expectations or entree into that
world, but the film found an audienceand people continue to watch it.
I, I'm really lucky that that film, I.
That people discover that film, andit's a small, little, tiny film, but
(12:02):
over time, you know, over 15, almost 20years here, we can walk in a full lap.
Wow.
This is awesome.
Look, so we're on a, we'resuddenly on a soccer field.
Yeah.
Here.
So when we doing t
walking, walking off turf,people have their dogs here.
I'm struck by the fact that you came tothis as a fan and not as somebody who.
(12:27):
Was sort of enterprising or tryingto like tell a specific story.
Like you weren't saying,
I wasn't looking to, I was searching forwhat I'd make a film about, and I think
there was a particular moment in whichI said, this is what I care about, so
why wouldn't I make a film about this?
Right.
(12:48):
You know, I think without veryintuitive, not like I had no aspirations
to be a documentary filmmaker,but then in retrospect it kind of
brought together all the things,
yeah.
That I was into, or things Ihad been involved with and cared
about since I was a teenager.
So.
It made sense, but there wasn't a plan.
(13:10):
Right.
And so once you have success with yourfirst film, what was the, what's the
next step that you take from there?
Um, to try to make a second filmwas really hard and you knew
right away, like, I, I like this.
I want to stay with making documentaries.
I think I found my niche.
Yeah.
I found a niche in which I could beme, and that it became important to
(13:34):
me to do stuff that had an audience.
I don't think that's what I was thinkingabout when I made well combination, but
when I saw that there was an audienceand context for me to show this work, I
wanted to continue to participate in that.
And I think like I think thatI saw a path, but also that by
(14:02):
telling a story and doing somethingthat was emotionally involved.
That people connected in a morevisceral way and that I didn't like
come up being like, I'm a storyteller.
I wanna tell stories.
That actually really was not myinterest, but I think I realized,
okay, when you tell a story andpeople get involved and they have
(14:24):
feelings, like it's a powerful thing.
Right?
And I think I just realized I had a knackfor it and wanted to continue to do that.
Well, so, so here we are.
17 years after your first feature.
Yeah.
Oh
my God,
man.
I know.
Isn't that wild to think aboutit whenever somebody's like,
when did you make Winnebago, man?
(14:44):
And I do the math.
Yeah.
I always get a little depressed 'causeit feels like it was not very long.
It's
funny, I just had a retrospectiveat this film festival called Big Sky
and I, it didn't occur to me thatit would be this trip, but I did Q
and as for everything I ever made.
Over the course of two days and Iwas like, oh my God, like so much
(15:08):
of my whole life has been consumedand stress about making these films.
And I mark all time in my lifeabout when films were being made.
And I was like, is that a good thing?
I don't, you know, it's kind oflike the main thought I had is wow.
I remember being in crisis overthat and then being like, oh, okay.
(15:30):
And then signing up todo it immediately again.
Right, right.
You know, like I associatea lot of it with stress.
Interesting.
Not joy,
because I, because again, we weresaying this off camera before we
started walking, but you know,from where I sit, I look at you as
somebody who's extremely successful.
Thank you.
And having a retrospective issomething that I hope to achieve
(15:51):
at some point in my career.
And the fact that you'vealready had that milestone.
Seems, yeah, seems lucky.
I really, admirable,
I've been, I don't know, I feel luckyand try not to take my opportunity
or visibility in any way for granted,but also I work in a modest way with
the exception of the peewee thing,which is in a different realm for me.
(16:11):
Like it's small, so you know,it's been sustainable, but
I'm operating in a niche way.
So how, talk to me sort of like walk methrough the process, like how do you.
Well, uh, find and becomeinterested in a story that you
think could make a good documentary.
I'm always looking and after a project, ifI don't start a new one right away, which
(16:34):
is sort of the dream, and I'm doing thatright now, it's only happened to me twice.
You know, I crash and then I'mreally like, what am I doing?
And, you know, really hustlelooking for film ideas and.
You know, so following the lead ofany idea I come up with and trying to
(16:56):
get access and seeing if my interestsustains as I start interacting with real
people who are connected to these ideas.
And yeah, some of those ideas don't stick.
I lose interest and others I kindof feel ambivalent about, but still
follow and then get involved and.
I think I always had a fantasy thatpeople would bring me stuff, which now
(17:18):
they, they do regularly, but it's, youkind of only really want to do stuff.
That's my idea.
I still want to hear about the otherideas 'cause you never know, but
I've never done one, so it's been,I had such a fantasy after a while,
combination that people would come tome with films and it would be, oh my
God, they closed this access point.
Oh we can get out over there.
(17:39):
And uh,
once that did happen.
It wasn't, I think I'm moreartist oriented, like I want to
do my own thing on my own terms.
Right.
And so I don't really, I've kind ofdone stuff for hire film wise, but
it's never been the same for me.
(17:59):
But it's getting loud.
Yeah.
We were walking right underneath, lemmeflip the camera around and show we,
there's a bulldozer right here and we are
this under area that's been underconstruction bridge for so long.
Right across.
We're gonna
get outta here.
Okay?
Yeah, no problem.
Is this bad for audio?
(18:20):
I think it's bad for audio.
How are you feeling at thispoint in the walk, by the way?
Is your arm getting tired or, I'm fine.
Um, okay, so I'm, we, we were startingto go into it about how you like to
work in a very specific way, and I'mcurious what that way is, like, what
is your process once you identifyan idea and decide that you're.
(18:41):
That it's worth making a,
I fill that.
I mean, really connecting with people,like developing relationships that
are explicitly connected to an idea.
Learning from people,meeting other people.
Mm-hmm.
Pre-interviewing peoplelooking for archive.
Well, that's, I wantedto ask you about that.
'cause I noticed that a lot of your filmshave, are, are about subjects that have
(19:04):
a, a, a deep wealth of archival material.
Yeah.
Is that something that's like aprerequisite for you, or is that mm-hmm.
Something you're, you'reactively searching.
It's just happening.
It's funny, it's like, I didn'tknow Paul Rubins had a thousand
hours of footage in his bedroom.
Uh
oh, a thousand.
I didn't know that.
(19:24):
Going into the commune, that createdbiosphere too, that they would have
a temperature controlled closet withhundreds of 60 millimeter films and
hundreds of tapes and thousands ofphotos, sort of like the subject matter.
Those people lend themselvesto, to that sort of thing.
So the people that you focus on, itseems like they're by and large artists
(19:47):
and that that type of personality isthe type that will record themselves
and have like a, almost like they're,they're making like a visual memoir
or something as they're going.
People who think whatthey're doing matters and are
documenting it and hold onto it.
Yeah.
And don't necessarily have a plan.
That would be a thread.
Okay.
Sounds a little bit likeyou with your first film.
(20:10):
Yeah, it's a little more narcissistic.
I think this idea that you matter, butI agree that what they did mattered
and so, I mean, it takes resources tosave all that stuff too, but Right.
I think like it just so happens thateverything I gravitate to has like some
monumental archive associated with it,but I do look for those archives, but.
(20:34):
That reverse engineer thinghas never really worked.
Okay.
But I do look and I ask around, andthe real thing I hope happens the
more films I make is that someone islike, I've got 500 hours of footage.
What should I do with it?
Like that has an exact, or maybe it'skind of happened, but not in a amazing
way, which that would be the dream.
(20:55):
Right?
And, and so how do you develop, likewhen you're in an early stage of an idea.
And, you know, in our business youhave to put together pitch decks.
Yeah.
You know, proof of concepts orsizzles, even though I hate that term.
Yeah.
Um, how, how are yougoing about doing that?
Are you, do you raise, I'm writingDo you raise a little bit of money
to go do that or do you put your ownmoney into developing the materials?
(21:18):
I've never put my own money into anything.
Come
on.
No, I have.
Really?
Yeah.
It's like a little bit of a rule.
You've cracked the code.
This is amazing.
Yeah.
I mean.
I think I always was pretty savvyat being like, this is my job.
I'm not making significant personalsacrifices beyond my labor in terms
(21:38):
of making my labor and my ideas,and I was very poorly and unfairly
compensated on certain things, but Isigned up for that and agreed to it.
But I've never gone into debtor I don't have a reserve of
significant money to spend on.
Other projects.
And even for development, I'vealways asked for money from other
(22:00):
people and you know, I reallysee it as like step by step.
And the first step is the relationshipswith people, then the access, and
then through that process havinga sense of what the story is.
I'm a pretty good and fast writer,kind of writing down what that story is
(22:20):
from the point of view of characters.
And then, you know, having.
In a simple way, a story, the access andthe idea, and then trying to find, or in
our parlance, attach people who add valueto that idea or who have resources, uh,
(22:40):
that are different than mine to make thatinto a thing that's actually happening.
And then when it's a thing that's actuallyhappening, it's easier to get money.
Yeah, that's been my experience.
So like piece by piece.
Making something turn from an ideainto a set of relationships with unique
access and then a compelling story, andthen adding partners so that something
(23:05):
is snowballing and gaining momentumand that people have the opportunity to
get on that train as opposed to askingfor permission to make for things.
Right.
That's always, I mean, not always,but that's my philosophy now at least.
Yeah.
I'm always curious to talk to other.
Uh, sp specifically doc filmmakersabout what they're currently thinking
(23:28):
about and like what they're inspiredby right now as we're walking.
Like what's, what's the latest thing thatyou've read that you're thinking about?
What's something that, you know, anidea that's kind of gnawing at Yeah,
I'm making a new film, sothat's what I'm thinking about.
I kind of go in and out ofabsorbing a high volume of material.
Or, or like deprivation.
(23:50):
Not, although yesterday I saw a movieand went to a talk, but that's, I'm
on like a little two week break.
In fact, I was trying to createa writing project for myself.
Look at those.
They're cool.
Oh, wow.
Cool.
What are those?
They're playground sculpturesthat are really cool.
That's, and, uh.
(24:10):
I started to create all this work.
I just finished like 40 days ofshooting on a new project and PeeWee's
coming out, and that's a whole thing.
And I was just kinda like, why don'tyou take two weeks and not try to
make stuff or do things like, andnow I'm going to the movies and
stuff, but not with the intention of.
(24:31):
Percolating creatively.
In fact, I'm trying to consciouslynot do that for really like two weeks.
I mean, I have work I'm doing, but nottrying not to do mentally heavy lifts.
What do you think?
Although, although that's also ahundred percent untrue because I just
wrote a treatment for a new film I did.
So it's, you know, so
(24:52):
you're breaking your fast,
but I was already developing that.
I think it's kind oflike a struggle for me.
To in some ways like shut up mybrain right from filmmaking stuff.
But I'm, I need to, because I'mfocusing on a new film, I need to
(25:14):
kind of reserve my energy for that,uh, while I'll be talking about the
peewee film, but that becomes pretty.
Routine, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Can you talk about your new film or
Yeah.
It's about the world of soap operas andI'm behind the scenes at the Bold and
the beautiful, um, and kind of a framefor the film is the unique family story
(25:36):
of this soap opera dynasty that wasled by, um, someone named William J.
Bell, who's kind of a godfather of soapsand kind of worked with the originators
of the genre and created the young andthe restless and bold and the beautiful.
And his son today runs thebold and the beautiful.
So I'm kind of exploring that worldthrough that lens, and it's the
(26:01):
first real verite film I've made.
I'm having so much fun.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
How did you gain access andhow did you Oh, it took years.
I mean, my friend wascast on a soap opera.
I, I didn't grow up on them and Iwatched and thought it was totally
crazy that this genre was so specific.
It's been going on for half a century and.
Tens of thousands of episodes.
(26:23):
And so I was in LA and Iasked could I get a set visit?
And I shadowed this soap directorwho liked my idea and understood
I wanted to do something kindof highbrow, like a reappraisal.
And he connected me to everyone inthat world and that world is small.
And that's how I came intocontact with Brad Bell, who
(26:44):
runs the Bold and Beautiful.
And I understood the significance ofthis family within the industry and he
really started advocating for the filmand we had to go through quite a process.
Um, but we have this kind of unprecedentedaccess to film behind the scenes
of an non-network television show.
(27:05):
So.
It's a unique situation,but it took several years,
especially, it's a unique situationnow as people are watching less
and less of network television.
Yeah.
Things like those legacy showsare becoming well, and it's filmed
in this building called TelevisionCity, which you may know in la.
Mm-hmm.
And that's where the price is.
Right.
(27:25):
And.
The Carol Burnett Show.
And Sonny and Cher were filmed, but nowCBS has sold the building and it's sort of
this ghost town except for the young andthe restless and bold and the beautiful.
Wow.
And so the building itself representsthat era or milieu of classic
television coming to an end.
Wow, that
(27:46):
is incredible.
Yeah, I'm really into the new project andI'm interviewing editors right now and
talking through what the post process willbe and sharing story insights with them.
So I'm really in that, and I don't needto be aggressively brainstorming new
ideas, but in some ways I always needto be kinda having that going on in my
(28:08):
brain, which it is naturally, but I try.
It's less productivewhen I really force it.
Right.
And what do you think, um, you know,as somebody who is actively raising
money and pitching projects, likewhat is the state of our documentary?
It's bad industry right now.
It's bad out there right now.
There are just limited buyers and Ithink there's always gonna be people
(28:33):
who are excited to get involvedin films and that it's a bit of a
circuit that you get tapped into.
If you're actively making work and outthere visibly, but that it's just, it's
a really tough time for most industries.
But the entertainment industry andthe documentary side of it, which
(28:57):
is small, is seriously contractingafter a period of rapid expansion and
ballooning budgets and, you know, Ithink not, they're not one person.
In our industry who isn't concernedabout the viability of doing what
we do, the way we've been doingit for the past several years.
Yeah.
And so we, I'm hearing that a lot.
(29:19):
Yeah.
And I'm also feeling that personally.
Yeah.
And I am trying to adopt newtechnologies, do things like this.
Yeah.
Think about how to developseries that could be repeatable.
YouTube shows uhhuh.
Are you?
I
don't think that way.
Interesting.
Tell me, tell me more.
Why?
Because the only thing that's gonna workis if I do something the way I always do.
(29:40):
But I don't think, like, I think theone thing I might have to adapt to is
shrinking budgets in a way in whichI've become accustomed to working with
people who help me in all sorts of ways.
And I might have to do more ofthat myself and to be paid less.
Not that I'm making a ton of money, but Ithink like I'm making a living doing this.
(30:01):
And to do that may involve medoing more than I already do.
And to accept the, the limitations of howmuch money you can make as a documentary
filmmaker and to, I've always done abit of commercial work here and there.
I'm trying to do more, I'm trying topursue nonfiction writing and you know,
(30:23):
I'm trying to diversify a little bit.
But also I am very privileged in terms of.
Been given a lot of opportunities to domy thing, and so I try not to think from
a standpoint of scarcity and to justkeep my head to the ground focused on
what I'm doing and if it really, if Ihit a brick wall, I will pivot, but it,
(30:50):
it's not gonna work if I'm trying to.
Uh, reverse engineer what I doto appeal to what is out there.
I'm not going to be a true crime guy.
Right.
But, you know, I'm making a prettypoppy film right now that I think
will be unexpectedly deeper, butthat's kind of what I wanted to do.
(31:10):
But it's the right timeto be doing something pop.
Yeah, unfortunately.
But it, it works for what I wanted to do.
Um, and I'm trying, I'm like, I thinkabout my body of work a lot, about
a bigger story I'm trying to tellthrough all the different films I make.
Oh, I love that.
I, I, whenever I talk to students, Iencourage 'em to think about that too.
(31:31):
It's like, it's not the filmyou're making now, it's the next
films you want to make afterwards.
And thinking about it as a Yeah.
Collective.
So how, what, how do youview your body of work?
Thematic, formal, like.
Just choosing things that feel unexpected.
I don't think people would've thoughtthat I would be pursuing a film about
soap operas, but it makes a lot ofsense and I think when the film is
(31:54):
completed, it'll make a lot of sense.
And I, you know, I've passed onprojects that I feel like are
repetitive things I've already done.
Not only because it's not necessarilygonna be challenging or interesting to
me, but also because I'm thinking aboutthe collection of what I do and trying to.
Do things that feel surprising tomyself and to people who watch my
(32:17):
films and to keep learning new things.
But if I'm doing it through my owninstincts and attractions, like, you know,
it's, there becomes a kind of continuitythrough it that I've had enough experience
now to see that that just happens.
(32:37):
That's kind of why I don'twanna do other people's ideas.
Hang on just a second.
We are under a very laugh, but bridge.
What, what are we walking under here?
This is the Williamsburg Bridge.
Oh, Williamsburg Bridge.
So, so then what, what is it thatkeeps you going, making this work?
(33:00):
We talked about how difficult it canbe, how the budgets are shrinking.
You have to work
more.
Oh, I love doing it.
I just love it.
I really do and like a lot of peopleare like very greener pastures, like,
I want to do fiction or dah, dah, dah.
I don't, I want to do what I do.
And it hasn't stoppedbeing interesting to me.
(33:22):
It continues to be stressful, but I don'tknow what it looks like for me not to be
making a film like I've been doing it.
For a while, and I've beendoing it since I was 23 or 24.
Like I love doing it and Ijust want to keep doing it.
(33:48):
It's interesting.
You did get like a twinkle inyour eye just now saying that
like you Yeah, I mean it's real.
It's real.
You sort of,
I love, I feel lucky that Ican do it and I love doing it.
Yeah,
and I hope that that comes across and.
My work, and I think it's part ofhow I've been able to get support is
(34:09):
I'm very passionate about what I do.
Do you?
So that's, and so iseverybody who's making films.
But yeah, you have to, I think thereis sometimes the tendency to wish
you were doing something else andI don't, I don't deal with that.
I'm very happy doing what I'm doing
(34:30):
and that right there is worth.
The stress that you mentionedand the The sacrifice lot.
Yeah.
But I'm
obviously to some extent, notalways, but thriving off of that
pressure and those challenges.
I like to finish stuff.
Yeah.
And so I like to keep my eyes onthe prize and to problem solve and
(34:57):
I'm getting good at that and thingsthat would've stressed me out.
10 years ago, or like a blip,but there's no version of making
a film that goes smoothly.
Right.
Yeah.
My business partner likes tosay it's called production
because it's always a production
and also just, it's just too many movingparts and too many people involved
(35:21):
for there not to be real hiccups.
Right.
Well, so we're coming up onyour building here and, uh.
I'm, I'm curious to know what youradvice to, um, aspiring filmmakers or
filmmakers who are just starting out.
Like, what would you, well, I always,what advice would you give them?
I always say the same thing.
I'll wait for the train.
(35:43):
Oh, yeah.
Thank you.
I always say that myadvice is always the same.
You have to finish what you start.
If you don't finish what youstart, you, you'll, you're
not gonna make other things.
(36:03):
You'll feel defeated or like a failure.
And if you finish somethingand it's not good, that's fine.
It's better than not finishing it andthat then you're motivated to do it again.
To make, to make it better, to learn frommistakes or if your first, your first film
or whatever you're making is really good.
(36:24):
It's encouraging, it's energizing.
You want to keep going?
I, I just think you gotta finish.
Like, I'm very finishedoriented, like finishing stuff.
Do you, you must have films that youhave started and not finished though.
Yeah, but I didn't get very far and I wastrying to assess if I wanted to make them.
Okay.
But once I really.
(36:46):
Get in and I'm doing it.
I'm never not finished.
Well, we're coming upto the end of our walk.
How was this for you?
Swung?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Matt, thank you againso much for doing this.
Thank you.
Okay,
so that was, uh Matt, Matt Wolf.
Matt Wolf.
I, well, I have to tell you, I waswildly jealous when you told me
(37:09):
you were gonna New York without me.
You were gonna walk withMatt Wolf without me.
And now that I've gotten a chance tobe in the audience for the first time.
I am even more jealous because Iwanna check in with Matt and get
a sense of how, uh, he handlesall that documentary intensity.
And how he makes such great work.
Um,
you guys will get along.
You're very, you're very similar.
You have a similar, uh, uh, beliefin your way is the right way.
(37:33):
Oh, that's the way to do it.
And I, that sounds, I do not in anyway mean that derogatory that is
a compliment to both of you guys.
I hear
that Matt Wolf, if that was a compliment.
Um, so, uh, that was a greatepisode and I really did, uh,
love what you did there, Ben.
Um, thank you.
Well, and you will have theopportunity, I'm sure in future
episodes to, uh, interview.
Amazing guests without me.
(37:54):
I'm gonna
take that opportunity every chance I get.
Uh, so Matt's uh, film Peewee as himselfis up on HBO Max as of last week.
It's a two-parter.
Um, it's peewee uh, check it out.
I can't wait.
I cannot wait to watch this movie.
Um, and then the next week after that, wecatch up with Charlie Shackleton at South
(38:15):
by Southwest, where he is here premiering
Zodiac Killer Project.
Zodiac Killer Project Next
time.
On Dock Walks, CharlieShackleton, Ben Stein Bauer,
Keith Maitland,
that's us.
Thanks for sticking around.
Thanks for checking us out.
We hope you'll watch the next one.
And uh, y'all be good.
Thanks everybody.
Dock Walks is created, produced,and edited by my friend Ben
(38:39):
Stein Bauer of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend KeithMaitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
Follow us at Doc Walks podon Instagram X and YouTube.
Okay, I am walking up about to meet,uh, filmmaker Matt Wolf, and there's
a lot of firsts going on here.
This is the first time thatI'm recording without Keith.
I'm, I'm also in New York, which is nota first, but a first for our podcast.
So, um, let's see how this goes.
I, I really looking forward to connectingwith Matt, big fan of his work.
(00:23):
And I want to hear, uh,more about his process.
So, uh, here we go.
This is my interview, my walk andtalk with filmmaker Matt Wolf.
On your left,
you're listening to DocWalk with Ben and Keith.
(00:44):
Okay, recording.
Wait, no, I just turned it off.
Sorry.
Oh, I thought that was record.
Let's see.
The red one is, should be record.
Let's see.
Did I hold it too long?
I don't know.
I'm just getting to knowthese, so if you just tap it.
There we go.
And then now you should,
yeah.
Great.
Okay.
(01:04):
Alright, here we go.
We're off.
Trying to hold it like undermy face in unflattering way.
Well, I don't think, uh, Idon't think that's possible.
Oh.
Shush.
I want, I need to flip this camera aroundjust to see like your building is, yeah.
Beautiful.
It's really wild.
(01:25):
This courtyard.
Gorgeous.
Yeah.
It's like a Melrose plate.
Hey Mark, how are you?
Oh God.
Um, yeah, it's a Melrose plate.
I mean, all my friends live here.
That is really incredible.
Yeah.
I, um, did you I dropped off, uh,equipment with actually another
(01:46):
filmmaker, Sierra Pettingill.
Okay.
Who was dating someone wholived here at the time and.
Um, I saw the courtyard 'cause it doesn'tlook that exciting from the outside.
It's like, what, what is this place?
Yeah.
And then, uh, I walked over here 'causethis is, we're in a weird neighborhood
in Manhattan that people don't go to.
(02:07):
Yeah.
Where are we?
What, what is the neighborhood?
Just like Lower East.
East, east side.
Okay.
And our park is under construction,but I'll take you to, uh.
Uh, I'll take you to a weirdhaphazard section of the
park that we can walk around.
Um, and, uh, and I came backand I stocked the building for
(02:33):
years, and then Oh, you did?
So
you were like, I'm gonnalive in this building.
I'm gonna,
well, I'm obsessed with the building.
Yeah.
Do you?
And, uh, I, uh, over time gotother people to move into it and.
More friends have now movedinto this neighborhood.
And so, you know, I have what theycall a community, but like, you
(02:58):
know, the, the old school kindwhere everybody lives together.
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
So it's commune.
Yeah.
You're treating your own commun situation.
I'm creating my own norc, naturallyoccurring retirement community.
So I guess we should do a setuphere we are, uh, walking along.
Uh.
The sidewalk here in the Lower East Side.
(03:20):
Uh uh, and I'm with Matt Wolf.
Hello.
Hello?
Um, you and I met atsome point, I don't know.
Yeah.
Maybe
eight, nine.
I, I don't remember.
When did, what was it, whendid wild Combination come out?
That came out in 2008, so
2008.
Okay.
Long
time ago.
Yeah.
Winnebago man was 2009.
Yeah.
(03:40):
And we did a, so we
probably met at a filmfestival around that time.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I've been a longtime admirer of your work.
I, when I reached out to you, I toldyou that wild combination is still one
of those movies that sticks with me.
Oh.
And I think about how you used archivalfootage in that, where you were
like animating over the top of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, the poster image is like sostrong and kind of seared in my brain.
(04:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had no idea who Arthur Russell was,Uhhuh, and he's now like his music.
Is such a part of my, yeah.
My music listening.
Yeah, yeah.
Vocabulary these days that, uh, I feellike that film was really inspirational
and also like, made a big impact on me.
And so I've kind of followedyour work ever since.
(04:26):
Thanks.
Um, and so you are, you havejust made the Peewee Herman?
I have, yeah.
It's coming out very soon.
In the next uh, two months.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
And it's on HBO.
It'll be on HBO.
Yeah.
And it premiered at Sundance, right?
Yep.
Great.
Yeah,
we were actually thererecording the podcast.
(04:49):
Oh, I'm forgetting that podcast.
Podcast
leading the way.
Yes you are.
I'm following you.
I have no idea where we're going.
We're going on my route.
'cause my park is underconstruction, so it's a weird route.
Oh, so you do this walk a lot, huh?
Yeah, I'm a big walker and talker.
Great.
Well.
That's what we're doing.
That's perfect for our podcast.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How many films have youhad Premier at Sundays?
(05:09):
I don't know.
Between shorts and features, maybe five.
Cool.
Yeah.
So tell me, uh, how you got started.
Like where, where did you, how, howdid you come to the idea that you could
make documentary films for a living?
Well, I have like a weird storywith that in that I was a gay
(05:30):
teen activist in the media.
In the late nineties in NorthernCalifornia, and there was the
documentary made about Me and Oh, what
Really?
Yeah.
Where, where did you grow up?
Like where was it?
I
grew up in San Jose.
Okay.
And, uh, and this is like MatthewShepherd, Ellen DeGeneres coming out time.
Okay.
(05:50):
And, uh, it was just being like a gayyouth was a hot button issue at the
time, and I got like a scholarship and.
Uh, this doc short documentary was madeabout me and I hated the experience.
And then I got written up in thenewspaper complaining about the
documentary, and the woman wrote mesaying, I loved this project and I'm
(06:15):
really troubled that you had a negativeex. I was like, I'm a fucking teenager.
Like, I'm just being angstyand complaining, like,
and how, how old were you?
No, at that then I was probably 17.
17, 17 or 18.
And how did they find you?
Like how did, who reached out?
Like what was that process like?
Well,
(06:35):
I was in the media, I was doing alot of media for gay youth activism
and I think I, no, I applied for afull scholarship from Parade Magazine
and uh, now we're walking over a,
yeah, we should
cloud, rickety bridge.
We should explain where we are.
(06:56):
This is very,
we're in a mixture dynamic.
Pedestrian bridge to a commuter ferrythat connect links up to the waterfront
park near my house that is currentlyincomplete, but we're going to the part
that is open that I like to walk around.
(07:17):
Yeah.
This is beautiful.
And so this is the East River here,
right?
Yeah, it's the east river
coming up on a very fast moving tugboat.
Yeah.
Wow.
I love watching that.
Well, that's a ferry, but I love watching.
Oh, oh, I haven't been over here.
I want to see their progress.
That's, that was this seventies, kindof post atomic, uh, amphitheater.
(07:37):
And we hung out there every weekendand everyone would just meet there
and they raised the park, uh, six toeight feet for flood resiliency and
everybody protested, including me.
But now, you know.
I'm just dying for this park to open, butthat's, that's the amphitheater area and
I haven't been on this bridge in a second.
(07:59):
And they're making,they're like moving fast.
Yeah, so they are.
It looks, hopefully thissummer I've got my spot back.
It looks like it's gonna be pretty nice.
I mean, I don't knowwhat I'm talking about.
Sure.
The trees are not mature,so there'll be no shade.
But you know, Biggers can't be choosers.
Well, okay, so you, so you had adocumentary made about you and did
(08:20):
you feel like it didn't represent you
actively?
I, I was forced to talk in thesesound bites, and I think in general
I was feeling like a kind ofposter child and I was good at it,
but I thought I'd be like a gay.
Political activist profession,like a professional gay activist.
(08:41):
But I, you know, I gotinto independent film.
I went to see, welcome to theDollhouse at the Indie Theater.
I worked at the Goth coffee shopand you know, the rest was history.
And, and, and so I, I fantasized here.
We can snake around this part.
It's nice.
Okay.
Uh.
I wanted to be a filmmaker.
(09:02):
I wanted to move to New York since I was,you know, 14, no way younger, like 10.
I wanted to be like, you know, ToddHanes or something, and I got a
full scholarship and went to NYUFilm School, and then I hated it.
I hated NYU, but I met a lotof great people who I will
(09:26):
go on to collaborate with.
Uh, I found a mentor inthe filmmaker, Kelly Regar.
Oh wow.
And uh, you know, at the time I was sortof anti school and I joined this video
activist collective called Paper Tiger.
Oh yeah.
(09:46):
Paper Tiger Television.
I remember that.
Right.
And I did a bunch of projects with 'em,and I got into the experimental film
world, largely through this festival.
Called the Mix Experimental GayLesbian Film Festival, which has
evolved into something else now.
But,
and, and to stop you really quick, thePaper Tiger was a public access show.
(10:06):
Yeah,
yeah, correct.
Yeah.
Was it one show or was it acollective that made a bunch of shows?
It was a collective that did a lot ofpublic access stuff, but other stuff too.
And we, uh, I was involved inhelping present films made by queer
youth, like it was an extension ofthe activism I did in high school.
But in a experimental activistdocumentary kind of space.
(10:33):
So I was going to this mainstream filmschool doing this stuff at Paper Tiger,
kind of in community with a lot of visualartists and experimental filmmakers.
And increasingly it was like,I don't wanna make features.
I don't want to be that kind of filmmaker.
And I. Um, you know, leftschool with that feeling.
(11:00):
But I had these amazing collaborators likeJody Lee Lipes and Lance Edmonds, and Kyle
Martin, and I wanted to make a film aboutArthur Russell, and I thought it would be
kind of this environmental video record.
In which it would be a multi-channelinstallation and every channel
(11:20):
would be like a different trackfeaturing an aspect of his story.
And I started to interview peopleand as I was doing it, Jody was like,
you know you're making a documentary.
I said, I'm not making a documentary.
And he was like, yeah, you are.
And then I was like, Welch,it's not, it's short.
It's like, why not?
Why isn't it a feature documentary?
I was just like, 'cause it's not.
(11:42):
And then it was, and I didn't havereal expectations or entree into that
world, but the film found an audienceand people continue to watch it.
I, I'm really lucky that that film, I.
That people discover that film, andit's a small, little, tiny film, but
(12:02):
over time, you know, over 15, almost 20years here, we can walk in a full lap.
Wow.
This is awesome.
Look, so we're on a, we'resuddenly on a soccer field.
Yeah.
Here.
So when we doing t
walking, walking off turf,people have their dogs here.
I'm struck by the fact that you came tothis as a fan and not as somebody who.
(12:27):
Was sort of enterprising or tryingto like tell a specific story.
Like you weren't saying,
I wasn't looking to, I was searching forwhat I'd make a film about, and I think
there was a particular moment in whichI said, this is what I care about, so
why wouldn't I make a film about this?
Right.
(12:48):
You know, I think without veryintuitive, not like I had no aspirations
to be a documentary filmmaker,but then in retrospect it kind of
brought together all the things,
yeah.
That I was into, or things Ihad been involved with and cared
about since I was a teenager.
So.
It made sense, but there wasn't a plan.
(13:10):
Right.
And so once you have success with yourfirst film, what was the, what's the
next step that you take from there?
Um, to try to make a second filmwas really hard and you knew
right away, like, I, I like this.
I want to stay with making documentaries.
I think I found my niche.
Yeah.
I found a niche in which I could beme, and that it became important to
(13:34):
me to do stuff that had an audience.
I don't think that's what I was thinkingabout when I made well combination, but
when I saw that there was an audienceand context for me to show this work, I
wanted to continue to participate in that.
And I think like I think thatI saw a path, but also that by
(14:02):
telling a story and doing somethingthat was emotionally involved.
That people connected in a morevisceral way and that I didn't like
come up being like, I'm a storyteller.
I wanna tell stories.
That actually really was not myinterest, but I think I realized,
okay, when you tell a story andpeople get involved and they have
(14:24):
feelings, like it's a powerful thing.
Right?
And I think I just realized I had a knackfor it and wanted to continue to do that.
Well, so, so here we are.
17 years after your first feature.
Yeah.
Oh
my God,
man.
I know.
Isn't that wild to think aboutit whenever somebody's like,
when did you make Winnebago, man?
(14:44):
And I do the math.
Yeah.
I always get a little depressed 'causeit feels like it was not very long.
It's
funny, I just had a retrospectiveat this film festival called Big Sky
and I, it didn't occur to me thatit would be this trip, but I did Q
and as for everything I ever made.
Over the course of two days and Iwas like, oh my God, like so much
(15:08):
of my whole life has been consumedand stress about making these films.
And I mark all time in my lifeabout when films were being made.
And I was like, is that a good thing?
I don't, you know, it's kind oflike the main thought I had is wow.
I remember being in crisis overthat and then being like, oh, okay.
(15:30):
And then signing up todo it immediately again.
Right, right.
You know, like I associatea lot of it with stress.
Interesting.
Not joy,
because I, because again, we weresaying this off camera before we
started walking, but you know,from where I sit, I look at you as
somebody who's extremely successful.
Thank you.
And having a retrospective issomething that I hope to achieve
(15:51):
at some point in my career.
And the fact that you'vealready had that milestone.
Seems, yeah, seems lucky.
I really, admirable,
I've been, I don't know, I feel luckyand try not to take my opportunity
or visibility in any way for granted,but also I work in a modest way with
the exception of the peewee thing,which is in a different realm for me.
(16:11):
Like it's small, so you know,it's been sustainable, but
I'm operating in a niche way.
So how, talk to me sort of like walk methrough the process, like how do you.
Well, uh, find and becomeinterested in a story that you
think could make a good documentary.
I'm always looking and after a project, ifI don't start a new one right away, which
(16:34):
is sort of the dream, and I'm doing thatright now, it's only happened to me twice.
You know, I crash and then I'mreally like, what am I doing?
And, you know, really hustlelooking for film ideas and.
You know, so following the lead ofany idea I come up with and trying to
(16:56):
get access and seeing if my interestsustains as I start interacting with real
people who are connected to these ideas.
And yeah, some of those ideas don't stick.
I lose interest and others I kindof feel ambivalent about, but still
follow and then get involved and.
I think I always had a fantasy thatpeople would bring me stuff, which now
(17:18):
they, they do regularly, but it's, youkind of only really want to do stuff.
That's my idea.
I still want to hear about the otherideas 'cause you never know, but
I've never done one, so it's been,I had such a fantasy after a while,
combination that people would come tome with films and it would be, oh my
God, they closed this access point.
Oh we can get out over there.
(17:39):
And uh,
once that did happen.
It wasn't, I think I'm moreartist oriented, like I want to
do my own thing on my own terms.
Right.
And so I don't really, I've kind ofdone stuff for hire film wise, but
it's never been the same for me.
(17:59):
But it's getting loud.
Yeah.
We were walking right underneath, lemmeflip the camera around and show we,
there's a bulldozer right here and we are
this under area that's been underconstruction bridge for so long.
Right across.
We're gonna
get outta here.
Okay?
Yeah, no problem.
Is this bad for audio?
(18:20):
I think it's bad for audio.
How are you feeling at thispoint in the walk, by the way?
Is your arm getting tired or, I'm fine.
Um, okay, so I'm, we, we were startingto go into it about how you like to
work in a very specific way, and I'mcurious what that way is, like, what
is your process once you identifyan idea and decide that you're.
(18:41):
That it's worth making a,
I fill that.
I mean, really connecting with people,like developing relationships that
are explicitly connected to an idea.
Learning from people,meeting other people.
Mm-hmm.
Pre-interviewing peoplelooking for archive.
Well, that's, I wantedto ask you about that.
'cause I noticed that a lot of your filmshave, are, are about subjects that have
(19:04):
a, a, a deep wealth of archival material.
Yeah.
Is that something that's like aprerequisite for you, or is that mm-hmm.
Something you're, you'reactively searching.
It's just happening.
It's funny, it's like, I didn'tknow Paul Rubins had a thousand
hours of footage in his bedroom.
Uh
oh, a thousand.
I didn't know that.
(19:24):
Going into the commune, that createdbiosphere too, that they would have
a temperature controlled closet withhundreds of 60 millimeter films and
hundreds of tapes and thousands ofphotos, sort of like the subject matter.
Those people lend themselvesto, to that sort of thing.
So the people that you focus on, itseems like they're by and large artists
(19:47):
and that that type of personality isthe type that will record themselves
and have like a, almost like they're,they're making like a visual memoir
or something as they're going.
People who think whatthey're doing matters and are
documenting it and hold onto it.
Yeah.
And don't necessarily have a plan.
That would be a thread.
Okay.
Sounds a little bit likeyou with your first film.
(20:10):
Yeah, it's a little more narcissistic.
I think this idea that you matter, butI agree that what they did mattered
and so, I mean, it takes resources tosave all that stuff too, but Right.
I think like it just so happens thateverything I gravitate to has like some
monumental archive associated with it,but I do look for those archives, but.
(20:34):
That reverse engineer thinghas never really worked.
Okay.
But I do look and I ask around, andthe real thing I hope happens the
more films I make is that someone islike, I've got 500 hours of footage.
What should I do with it?
Like that has an exact, or maybe it'skind of happened, but not in a amazing
way, which that would be the dream.
(20:55):
Right?
And, and so how do you develop, likewhen you're in an early stage of an idea.
And, you know, in our business youhave to put together pitch decks.
Yeah.
You know, proof of concepts orsizzles, even though I hate that term.
Yeah.
Um, how, how are yougoing about doing that?
Are you, do you raise, I'm writingDo you raise a little bit of money
to go do that or do you put your ownmoney into developing the materials?
(21:18):
I've never put my own money into anything.
Come
on.
No, I have.
Really?
Yeah.
It's like a little bit of a rule.
You've cracked the code.
This is amazing.
Yeah.
I mean.
I think I always was pretty savvyat being like, this is my job.
I'm not making significant personalsacrifices beyond my labor in terms
(21:38):
of making my labor and my ideas,and I was very poorly and unfairly
compensated on certain things, but Isigned up for that and agreed to it.
But I've never gone into debtor I don't have a reserve of
significant money to spend on.
Other projects.
And even for development, I'vealways asked for money from other
(22:00):
people and you know, I reallysee it as like step by step.
And the first step is the relationshipswith people, then the access, and
then through that process havinga sense of what the story is.
I'm a pretty good and fast writer,kind of writing down what that story is
(22:20):
from the point of view of characters.
And then, you know, having.
In a simple way, a story, the access andthe idea, and then trying to find, or in
our parlance, attach people who add valueto that idea or who have resources, uh,
(22:40):
that are different than mine to make thatinto a thing that's actually happening.
And then when it's a thing that's actuallyhappening, it's easier to get money.
Yeah, that's been my experience.
So like piece by piece.
Making something turn from an ideainto a set of relationships with unique
access and then a compelling story, andthen adding partners so that something
(23:05):
is snowballing and gaining momentumand that people have the opportunity to
get on that train as opposed to askingfor permission to make for things.
Right.
That's always, I mean, not always,but that's my philosophy now at least.
Yeah.
I'm always curious to talk to other.
Uh, sp specifically doc filmmakersabout what they're currently thinking
(23:28):
about and like what they're inspiredby right now as we're walking.
Like what's, what's the latest thing thatyou've read that you're thinking about?
What's something that, you know, anidea that's kind of gnawing at Yeah,
I'm making a new film, sothat's what I'm thinking about.
I kind of go in and out ofabsorbing a high volume of material.
Or, or like deprivation.
(23:50):
Not, although yesterday I saw a movieand went to a talk, but that's, I'm
on like a little two week break.
In fact, I was trying to createa writing project for myself.
Look at those.
They're cool.
Oh, wow.
Cool.
What are those?
They're playground sculpturesthat are really cool.
That's, and, uh.
(24:10):
I started to create all this work.
I just finished like 40 days ofshooting on a new project and PeeWee's
coming out, and that's a whole thing.
And I was just kinda like, why don'tyou take two weeks and not try to
make stuff or do things like, andnow I'm going to the movies and
stuff, but not with the intention of.
(24:31):
Percolating creatively.
In fact, I'm trying to consciouslynot do that for really like two weeks.
I mean, I have work I'm doing, but nottrying not to do mentally heavy lifts.
What do you think?
Although, although that's also ahundred percent untrue because I just
wrote a treatment for a new film I did.
So it's, you know, so
(24:52):
you're breaking your fast,
but I was already developing that.
I think it's kind oflike a struggle for me.
To in some ways like shut up mybrain right from filmmaking stuff.
But I'm, I need to, because I'mfocusing on a new film, I need to
(25:14):
kind of reserve my energy for that,uh, while I'll be talking about the
peewee film, but that becomes pretty.
Routine, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Can you talk about your new film or
Yeah.
It's about the world of soap operas andI'm behind the scenes at the Bold and
the beautiful, um, and kind of a framefor the film is the unique family story
(25:36):
of this soap opera dynasty that wasled by, um, someone named William J.
Bell, who's kind of a godfather of soapsand kind of worked with the originators
of the genre and created the young andthe restless and bold and the beautiful.
And his son today runs thebold and the beautiful.
So I'm kind of exploring that worldthrough that lens, and it's the
(26:01):
first real verite film I've made.
I'm having so much fun.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
How did you gain access andhow did you Oh, it took years.
I mean, my friend wascast on a soap opera.
I, I didn't grow up on them and Iwatched and thought it was totally
crazy that this genre was so specific.
It's been going on for half a century and.
Tens of thousands of episodes.
(26:23):
And so I was in LA and Iasked could I get a set visit?
And I shadowed this soap directorwho liked my idea and understood
I wanted to do something kindof highbrow, like a reappraisal.
And he connected me to everyone inthat world and that world is small.
And that's how I came intocontact with Brad Bell, who
(26:44):
runs the Bold and Beautiful.
And I understood the significance ofthis family within the industry and he
really started advocating for the filmand we had to go through quite a process.
Um, but we have this kind of unprecedentedaccess to film behind the scenes
of an non-network television show.
(27:05):
So.
It's a unique situation,but it took several years,
especially, it's a unique situationnow as people are watching less
and less of network television.
Yeah.
Things like those legacy showsare becoming well, and it's filmed
in this building called TelevisionCity, which you may know in la.
Mm-hmm.
And that's where the price is.
Right.
(27:25):
And.
The Carol Burnett Show.
And Sonny and Cher were filmed, but nowCBS has sold the building and it's sort of
this ghost town except for the young andthe restless and bold and the beautiful.
Wow.
And so the building itself representsthat era or milieu of classic
television coming to an end.
Wow, that
(27:46):
is incredible.
Yeah, I'm really into the new project andI'm interviewing editors right now and
talking through what the post process willbe and sharing story insights with them.
So I'm really in that, and I don't needto be aggressively brainstorming new
ideas, but in some ways I always needto be kinda having that going on in my
(28:08):
brain, which it is naturally, but I try.
It's less productivewhen I really force it.
Right.
And what do you think, um, you know,as somebody who is actively raising
money and pitching projects, likewhat is the state of our documentary?
It's bad industry right now.
It's bad out there right now.
There are just limited buyers and Ithink there's always gonna be people
(28:33):
who are excited to get involvedin films and that it's a bit of a
circuit that you get tapped into.
If you're actively making work and outthere visibly, but that it's just, it's
a really tough time for most industries.
But the entertainment industry andthe documentary side of it, which
(28:57):
is small, is seriously contractingafter a period of rapid expansion and
ballooning budgets and, you know, Ithink not, they're not one person.
In our industry who isn't concernedabout the viability of doing what
we do, the way we've been doingit for the past several years.
Yeah.
And so we, I'm hearing that a lot.
(29:19):
Yeah.
And I'm also feeling that personally.
Yeah.
And I am trying to adopt newtechnologies, do things like this.
Yeah.
Think about how to developseries that could be repeatable.
YouTube shows uhhuh.
Are you?
I
don't think that way.
Interesting.
Tell me, tell me more.
Why?
Because the only thing that's gonna workis if I do something the way I always do.
(29:40):
But I don't think, like, I think theone thing I might have to adapt to is
shrinking budgets in a way in whichI've become accustomed to working with
people who help me in all sorts of ways.
And I might have to do more ofthat myself and to be paid less.
Not that I'm making a ton of money, but Ithink like I'm making a living doing this.
(30:01):
And to do that may involve medoing more than I already do.
And to accept the, the limitations of howmuch money you can make as a documentary
filmmaker and to, I've always done abit of commercial work here and there.
I'm trying to do more, I'm trying topursue nonfiction writing and you know,
(30:23):
I'm trying to diversify a little bit.
But also I am very privileged in terms of.
Been given a lot of opportunities to domy thing, and so I try not to think from
a standpoint of scarcity and to justkeep my head to the ground focused on
what I'm doing and if it really, if Ihit a brick wall, I will pivot, but it,
(30:50):
it's not gonna work if I'm trying to.
Uh, reverse engineer what I doto appeal to what is out there.
I'm not going to be a true crime guy.
Right.
But, you know, I'm making a prettypoppy film right now that I think
will be unexpectedly deeper, butthat's kind of what I wanted to do.
(31:10):
But it's the right timeto be doing something pop.
Yeah, unfortunately.
But it, it works for what I wanted to do.
Um, and I'm trying, I'm like, I thinkabout my body of work a lot, about
a bigger story I'm trying to tellthrough all the different films I make.
Oh, I love that.
I, I, whenever I talk to students, Iencourage 'em to think about that too.
(31:31):
It's like, it's not the filmyou're making now, it's the next
films you want to make afterwards.
And thinking about it as a Yeah.
Collective.
So how, what, how do youview your body of work?
Thematic, formal, like.
Just choosing things that feel unexpected.
I don't think people would've thoughtthat I would be pursuing a film about
soap operas, but it makes a lot ofsense and I think when the film is
(31:54):
completed, it'll make a lot of sense.
And I, you know, I've passed onprojects that I feel like are
repetitive things I've already done.
Not only because it's not necessarilygonna be challenging or interesting to
me, but also because I'm thinking aboutthe collection of what I do and trying to.
Do things that feel surprising tomyself and to people who watch my
(32:17):
films and to keep learning new things.
But if I'm doing it through my owninstincts and attractions, like, you know,
it's, there becomes a kind of continuitythrough it that I've had enough experience
now to see that that just happens.
(32:37):
That's kind of why I don'twanna do other people's ideas.
Hang on just a second.
We are under a very laugh, but bridge.
What, what are we walking under here?
This is the Williamsburg Bridge.
Oh, Williamsburg Bridge.
So, so then what, what is it thatkeeps you going, making this work?
(33:00):
We talked about how difficult it canbe, how the budgets are shrinking.
You have to work
more.
Oh, I love doing it.
I just love it.
I really do and like a lot of peopleare like very greener pastures, like,
I want to do fiction or dah, dah, dah.
I don't, I want to do what I do.
And it hasn't stoppedbeing interesting to me.
(33:22):
It continues to be stressful, but I don'tknow what it looks like for me not to be
making a film like I've been doing it.
For a while, and I've beendoing it since I was 23 or 24.
Like I love doing it and Ijust want to keep doing it.
(33:48):
It's interesting.
You did get like a twinkle inyour eye just now saying that
like you Yeah, I mean it's real.
It's real.
You sort of,
I love, I feel lucky that Ican do it and I love doing it.
Yeah,
and I hope that that comes across and.
My work, and I think it's part ofhow I've been able to get support is
(34:09):
I'm very passionate about what I do.
Do you?
So that's, and so iseverybody who's making films.
But yeah, you have to, I think thereis sometimes the tendency to wish
you were doing something else andI don't, I don't deal with that.
I'm very happy doing what I'm doing
(34:30):
and that right there is worth.
The stress that you mentionedand the The sacrifice lot.
Yeah.
But I'm
obviously to some extent, notalways, but thriving off of that
pressure and those challenges.
I like to finish stuff.
Yeah.
And so I like to keep my eyes onthe prize and to problem solve and
(34:57):
I'm getting good at that and thingsthat would've stressed me out.
10 years ago, or like a blip,but there's no version of making
a film that goes smoothly.
Right.
Yeah.
My business partner likes tosay it's called production
because it's always a production
and also just, it's just too many movingparts and too many people involved
(35:21):
for there not to be real hiccups.
Right.
Well, so we're coming up onyour building here and, uh.
I'm, I'm curious to know what youradvice to, um, aspiring filmmakers or
filmmakers who are just starting out.
Like, what would you, well, I always,what advice would you give them?
I always say the same thing.
I'll wait for the train.
(35:43):
Oh, yeah.
Thank you.
I always say that myadvice is always the same.
You have to finish what you start.
If you don't finish what youstart, you, you'll, you're
not gonna make other things.
(36:03):
You'll feel defeated or like a failure.
And if you finish somethingand it's not good, that's fine.
It's better than not finishing it andthat then you're motivated to do it again.
To make, to make it better, to learn frommistakes or if your first, your first film
or whatever you're making is really good.
(36:24):
It's encouraging, it's energizing.
You want to keep going?
I, I just think you gotta finish.
Like, I'm very finishedoriented, like finishing stuff.
Do you, you must have films that youhave started and not finished though.
Yeah, but I didn't get very far and I wastrying to assess if I wanted to make them.
Okay.
But once I really.
(36:46):
Get in and I'm doing it.
I'm never not finished.
Well, we're coming upto the end of our walk.
How was this for you?
Swung?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Matt, thank you againso much for doing this.
Thank you.
Okay,
so that was, uh Matt, Matt Wolf.
Matt Wolf.
I, well, I have to tell you, I waswildly jealous when you told me
(37:09):
you were gonna New York without me.
You were gonna walk withMatt Wolf without me.
And now that I've gotten a chance tobe in the audience for the first time.
I am even more jealous because Iwanna check in with Matt and get
a sense of how, uh, he handlesall that documentary intensity.
And how he makes such great work.
Um,
you guys will get along.
You're very, you're very similar.
You have a similar, uh, uh, beliefin your way is the right way.
(37:33):
Oh, that's the way to do it.
And I, that sounds, I do not in anyway mean that derogatory that is
a compliment to both of you guys.
I hear
that Matt Wolf, if that was a compliment.
Um, so, uh, that was a greatepisode and I really did, uh,
love what you did there, Ben.
Um, thank you.
Well, and you will have theopportunity, I'm sure in future
episodes to, uh, interview.
Amazing guests without me.
(37:54):
I'm gonna
take that opportunity every chance I get.
Uh, so Matt's uh, film Peewee as himselfis up on HBO Max as of last week.
It's a two-parter.
Um, it's peewee uh, check it out.
I can't wait.
I cannot wait to watch this movie.
Um, and then the next week after that, wecatch up with Charlie Shackleton at South
(38:15):
by Southwest, where he is here premiering
Zodiac Killer Project.
Zodiac Killer Project Next
time.
On Dock Walks, CharlieShackleton, Ben Stein Bauer,
Keith Maitland,
that's us.
Thanks for sticking around.
Thanks for checking us out.
We hope you'll watch the next one.
And uh, y'all be good.
Thanks everybody.
Dock Walks is created, produced,and edited by my friend Ben
(38:39):
Stein Bauer of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend KeithMaitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
Follow us at Doc Walks podon Instagram X and YouTube.
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