June 12, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, Jeff Langford drops in for an interview about the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. He emphasizes the importance of building relationships in ministry and notes some challenges faced by churches today. Jeff notes the generational perspectives within CBF, the role of women in ministry, and the impact of Christian nationalism. There’s a nod to Father’s Day and reflections on being a dad. Jeff is a husband and father, and Coordinator of CBF Heartland since 2016. He is also known to be a Royals fan but doesn't like how their season is going.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey, everybody. Thanks for tuning in.
I'm very excited about our guesttoday.
For our segment, we're going to have Jeff Lankford with us.
He is the coordinator for Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.
Heartland. First of all, how are you doing?
I'm doing great, Danny. Awesome to see you.
Listen likewise. I know I'm seeing you, but folks
won't be seeing us. Fortunately for them, they'll
(00:20):
just have to to hear us instead of see us.
Listen, let me get this out of the way first.
Who do I have to thank for scheduling ACBF night at Busch
Stadium during the General Assembly?
Well, that was collective wisdom, but I did encourage them
basically, hey, if the Cardinalsare in town, let's not fight
that. Let's just roll with it and and
(00:41):
have a fun night together because Cardinals versus Cubs,
there's a lot of people who wantto see that, so let's go do it
together. Well, let.
Me ask you this and I'm I was inMissouri for about 12 years and
I believe I was there when the designation was changed to
Heartland. Can you tell me maybe what the
geographic layout of the land isfor CBF Heartland?
(01:01):
Sure. Heartland is a 12 state region,
basically a bunch of the Midwestern states, upper
Midwestern states that go from, you know, Kansas on the West
side all the way to Ohio on the east and kind of up to the
Canada border. So it's a, it's a total of 12
states. We started this CBF Missouri,
but we always had relationships with churches that were on the
(01:24):
border of Missouri, either on the Kansas side of Kansas City
or the Illinois side of Saint Louis, and then even up into
Iowa. And it always felt weird to be
talking to a church or giving greetings in a service from CBF
Missouri when I was standing in Kansas or in Iowa or Illinois.
(01:46):
So we changed our name to the Heartland just to be inclusive
of those folks. And then eventually the North
Central region, which included that group of states that are
kind of east of Missouri, they, they needed to kind of close up
shop and we incorporated those states as well.
It's, it's a large geographic footprint.
(02:07):
But in terms of relationships, we weren't taking on a whole
bunch more churches or anything like that.
We just extended welcome and relationship to a few more
churches and a lot more people, but we were happy to do that.
How many churches are in Heartland, Jeff?
It's about 25 churches who actively support us.
There's a lot of different kindsof relationships, as you know,
(02:29):
that are that are part of CBF, but the supporting churches is
about 25. OK.
Yeah. Well, last coordinator and we
were talking before we started arecording, you started as
coordinator in 2016, right? Can you share a little bit of
the the trajectory that led you to this position?
Yeah. Well, I started with CBF
Heartland as the Associate Coordinator in November 2004.
(02:53):
Leslie Limbaugh was the associate before me, and she was
over in the Saint Louis area, isstill a pastor in an American
Baptist Church in Festus, MO. But I came on board, you know,
kind of filling the role she hadas associate coordinator and
worked there for more than 10 years underneath Harold
Phillips's leadership. And I just got a a really great
(03:14):
education about what the role isand how to support churches, the
work and the the meaning of the work.
And so it was sort of an easy transition when Harold decided
it was time to retire for me to shift into the leadership of the
organization. I certainly had thoughts about
what we could be doing as an organization that we're not in,
you know, competition at all with what what Harold wanted to
(03:37):
do. But they were a little bit
different because I'm a different person and a a
different generation, I think, and also came at it from a
different perspective, never having served on a church staff
before or anything like that. I came at it from a layperson's
perspective initially. I was reading a little bit about
your bio and I that's interesting and I was going to
ask you, it's been about 10 years.
(03:58):
Have there been any lessons you may have learned or any
surprises that you may have stumbled upon?
I mean, there's lots of lessons that I feel like I probably
should have learned earlier, youknow, like from my mom or
something. Don't judge a book by its cover.
That's a good lesson that you always have to learn.
That's been around for a while. Yeah, get that good things take
(04:21):
time. That's one of the lessons that
I'm learning right now. Just that they're consistent
work over a long period of time is sometimes what what it takes
to get good things done in the world.
Even with churches, even with people with the best of
intentions, even with really great people that you're working
with, sometimes it just takes a little bit of time to get things
done. That's one.
(04:42):
Yeah, well, and again, you've done this for several years.
Why do you find yourself doing most in terms of relating to the
churches or the the pastors or the staff?
Yeah, it's really all about relationships, Danny.
I mean, I sort of react initially to things as a problem
solver, but I've learned over time that that's not necessarily
what's initially is needed, you know, for me to solve anybody's
(05:06):
problems. It's just relationships.
People, ministers and churches and lay leaders and churches
need support, need a good listening ear, need to be
encouraged. And for someone with an outside
perspective sometimes to see things that they can't see,
encourage them about great things that they're doing that
maybe they've lost sight of. You know, perhaps see a tiny
(05:30):
little nugget or tweak that could be made that could make a
difference. But mostly it's just about being
a good friend to people. I remember, of course, we knew
each other when I worked there in Missouri for those years and
kind of with our little corner of the empire, I would jokingly
say in Springfield, as far as CBF goes, you'd have to go there
on purpose. You know, it was kind of out of
(05:50):
the way. And I wonder, I guess I'm
hearing you say the sense of isolation, it may be loneliness
even. Do you find that to still be an
issue? Yeah.
I think it certainly is for ministers because of the nature
of their calling, you know, feelisolated, certainly within their
work context, but sometimes evenfrom one another.
(06:11):
So creating opportunities for engagement between ministers is
is pretty important as well. I would say, Danny, in some ways
that it's not dissimilar to whata lot of people experience in
their lives. So ministers are reflective of
the larger moves that are happening around our, around our
(06:31):
country, in culture in general. Lots of people feel isolated,
lots of people feel burned out. But ministers are not exempt
from that, even though they're spiritual, you know.
Yeah, we know this is the the season for Baptist start meeting
and doing things. And I was curious for those who
may not know what the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
is and, and you can deal with this from your regional
(06:53):
perspective, but I know you havebeen involved with CBF from a
national standpoint. How would you describe the CBF
and maybe just briefly, how did you get connected with CBF?
Sure. Well, I would describe, I think
the best word for CBF is community.
If I was to boil it down into one word, it is a community of
(07:14):
churches and Christians basically trying to work
collaboratively together to do good in the world.
That's what it boils down to. And, you know, there's, there's
no real power a structure withinCBF that's telling churches what
to do CBF is inviting churches to into relationship to
collaborate together and to support things together that we
(07:36):
feel is important. So I don't know how that
compares to all denominations. But you know, my experience in
CBF has been really life giving.People want to be there when you
come together for a meeting, it's, it feels like a family
reunion. And it's because we love each
other. You know, we, we are caring,
thoughtful Christians and that extends into how we operate
(07:58):
together. I got involved because I, I
joined Second Baptist Church in Liberty, MO, where I live.
I'm just as a layperson and I'vebeen a serious church member my
whole life. You know, from my grew up with
my parents as, as committed laypeople.
And I was like that my whole life too, all through children
and youth group and all that stuff.
(08:19):
I went to, I went to a state school, but was very involved in
the Baptist Student Union there,you know, in leadership and
things. So I took my faith seriously.
And so I connected with Harold Phillips at, at Second Liberty
and we were in a Renavari group together, just got to know each
other a little bit. And he roped me into doing a
little bit bit of volunteering for CBF Missouri back in the
(08:42):
day. And I did that, was on the
coordinating council, learned more about it, liked what I saw.
And then when the job came open,it really matched with my faith
passions and my work experience meshed together really well and
I felt like it was a good calling, a good match, you know,
And here I am 20 years later. So I think it was.
(09:02):
I'm of an age. I had one of these birthdays
with a 0 on the end of it a short time ago.
But if my math is right, BBF as an organization was founded
around 1991, so I'm guessing. I'm guessing that makes us
around 34 years of age, so fairly young I would imagine.
And you may have answered this, but do you, do you still think
(09:25):
CBF is important and why? And maybe what are some things
that you believe CBF does well? Well, I do think it's important.
If you look at some of the data it would say that from a number
standpoint, the larger culture is saying that CBF is an
important. Denominations are by and large
on the decline. The churches that are growing
(09:47):
are non denominational churches by and large.
And all of that says that a denominational entity, if you
were going to start a Business Today, that wouldn't be your
number one choice from a numbersperspective.
But in terms of giving life to congregations, I do feel like
it's, it's very, very important the work that we do, the kinds
(10:09):
of connections that we're able to create, connecting people to
one another, connecting people to different kinds of ministries
that can enliven the spirit, spark imagination, connecting
people to mission endeavors thatthey can be really proud of and
to a missiology that is is doinggood instead of doing harm.
I mean, I, I think there's lots of different ways that this
(10:32):
organization of CBF can give life to churches.
And that's, it's really what it's all about.
It's, it's for the church and for and for individual
Christians that are interested in those things.
It's not to, it's not about the life of the organization itself.
It's about who we're serving. And I feel like that still is
vitally important. I remember attending an assembly
(10:53):
a few years ago, I forget what year it was, but something was
announced from the platform thatI kind of made my ears perk up.
They were saying for the first time there were more seminary
graduates from non SBC schools and I thought I found that to be
interesting. Of course I was raised in that
environment and grateful for it.But I'm, I guess I'm asking from
a generational standpoint. It may be from an age
(11:16):
standpoint. You find different ages look at
CBF in different ways. I think so.
I have a colleague at CBF who's someone I would consider very
young, you know, like the age ofmy children.
And so and I'm seeing my children, seeing younger
colleagues. I do think they see things
differently, but I would think that some of the lessons that
(11:36):
older generations learned about life in the church, about
organizations and power in organizations, the importance of
good theological frameworks thatare behind some of those
decisions that you make. I think the older generations,
we just haven't remembered all the lessons.
You know, some of the younger generations will eventually
discover the wisdom that the older generations gave to us.
(12:00):
And I appreciate some of the younger folks I think about, you
know, Kelly and some of my children, Kelly and I are going
to become coming to Saint Louis here pretty soon.
They don't really get caught up in, I guess, some of the battles
that were fought back in the day.
And that brings me to this othertopic about Walter Sharden's 4
fragile freedoms. And, and again, I'm kind of
dating myself. I think that's a classic book
(12:21):
about these 4 freedoms. I guess I'm asking from your
interaction with some of the churches, do you find these
distinctions alive and well, or do they still matter?
Yeah, I don't think they're talked about in the same way,
Danny, but I think they do matter.
And perhaps maybe a a topic thatwould resonate really well is
the topic of women in ministry, for instance.
(12:44):
I'll bet you younger generationswouldn't think that
denominational fights are that important, and I certainly
didn't either when I was younger.
I had totally checked out of thedenominational world, but if you
ask me, is it important that women in ministry, women are
seen as equally called by God? I would have said, of course
that's important, but that's nota given everywhere.
(13:06):
And sometimes that does break down into denominational.
One difference between CBF and other denominations and so.
Does it? Matter, Yeah.
Yeah. And of course, right now I'm
kind of picking at my phone. I know the SBCI think that's one
of the issues. It's kind of deja vu all over
again. They're voting on whether to
exclude the churches who have pastors who are women.
(13:27):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole idea of
excluding churches is really peculiar to me anyway, because I
can't imagine, you know, deciding to exclude a church if
some, if a church wanted to comework with CBFI would say yes.
And that what that does is it makes CBF a more diverse place,
(13:48):
a more vibrant place where there's not a sense of
monolithic thinking at all. You know, there are, there's a
diversity of opinion in lots of different areas in CBF, even
when it's sometimes uncomfortable.
So I, I think that's great. I think that's the way the
church ought to be. Certainly we see that in in what
we see in the Scriptures about the early church.
There were some challenging moments that pushed people
(14:11):
further than they thought they were going to go, but that's
what Christ LED them. Well, do you keep up with Brian
Kaylor over that way? I try as much as I can.
Brian is man. He's a tremendous leader in, you
know, religious freedom. And I want to get him back to
the four fragile freedoms. I mean, he's, he's sharp.
I wanted to get him on here but I I feel like I need to get his
book first. Before, I appreciate that.
(14:33):
I think so, but he speaks a lot to Christian nationalism.
Yes, And I'm kind of a little out of touch with things over in
your neighborhood. Do you find any significant
challenges or issues with this area?
It does seem like it's rearing its ugly head just about
everywhere in the country. Missouri's certainly no
exception to that. A lot of people feel like that's
(14:56):
the right thing for our country,and I think Brian does a great
job of educating people about the dangers of that way of
thinking. I certainly never have looked to
the government for faith leadership.
That's not something that I would want.
And I don't think that fusing the two would make faith any
stronger in the United States. I think it would weaken faith
(15:18):
more than anything. And we as we as Christians ought
to be really scared about a movement that is putting faith
leadership in the hands of government.
I think it's like a cliche, but it's kind of like anytime
there's a an effort to to merge the church and the government,
it seems like the church loses every time.
Absolutely, for sure. Well, with your word, do you
find that church is still more or less embrace the Baptist's
(15:42):
identity in there? Maybe in their name of the
church? Or what kind of perceptions do
people have? I see you smiling there.
Well, you said name of church, so I've, I've been in the role
long enough to see lots of churches wrestle with Baptist.
And what does it mean? They certain there's no church
that I'm connected with that is wanting to distance itself from
(16:04):
Baptist principles. The four fragile freedoms that
you mentioned, those, those are highly valued, but the Baptist
name, not so much. Lots of churches I know have
tried to figure out a way to getBaptist out of the name because
Baptist in our larger culture iskind of a dirty word.
It stands for things that CBF doesn't feel like are actually
(16:27):
Baptist. You know, there's there's a mean
spiritedness that gets attached to Baptist that does not, it's
not reflective of who we are. And so, you know, one of my
churches here in the Kansas Cityarea took Baptist out of the
name as a way of being more inclusive to people who are
active in the church who didn't grow up Baptist, you know, grew
(16:47):
up in Methodist churches or Catholic churches or wherever.
And so Baptist didn't necessarily fit them anymore.
So I think that I thought that was a really the interesting
approach to it, just to say Baptist is, is being
exclusionary in our culture and maybe we need to take that out
of our name. Even though with that in mind, I
mean. Principles.
Yeah. And I mentioned the SPC is
(17:07):
meeting this week and they usually, I know I was going to
ask you from the standpoint of these Baptist meetings and I was
going to ask Paul this probably in a couple weeks.
Do we go into this thinking, yes, we made the news or yes, we
didn't make the news. I mean, which would be the
preferable way to go? I think preferable, preferable
would be to not make the news atall.
(17:29):
We are not, we're not going to pass any resolutions.
You know, we're not trying to make a statement about anything.
We're just trying to strengthen our ministries, collaborate and
fellowship together, renew our spirits when we're there.
And so that's maybe not newsworthy for most people.
Let me just touch on this one more time.
I grew up Southern Baptist and of course there are a lot of
(17:52):
younger generation that may not have that identity or
affiliation going up. But does it still matter of what
they do as a denomination in thepronouncements they make?
Or do you find yourself maybe having to react to it or speak
to it in different ways? I mean, that's a, that's a great
question. I really haven't paid a lot of
attention to the SBC in many, many years.
(18:14):
I too grew up Southern Baptist. I'm grateful for how I grew up.
Certainly the biblical foundations that it my churches
provided me when I was growing up or are still paying
dividends, you know, but I also want to be, there's so much
ministry and work that that Christ has called us to do here
that I don't pay a lot of attention to something that's
(18:37):
going to cause conflict somewhere else, right?
I'll let the Spirit work on them.
And because the Spirit's certainly working on on me and
on us. So there's enough there.
Yeah, I think that's a good approach.
I would much rather, I know there's a certain sense of
saying that we're not like that,but I think it's more to say
what do we stand for in the positive ways.
(18:58):
Now Ryan Burge is going to make an appearance at the General
Assembly. I don't know, Ryan do.
You, I Yes, I've met Ryan a few times.
You know, he's here in the heartland.
He lives. Oh, that's right, he wrote an
article about his church, didn'the?
Yeah, yeah. He's, he's been an American
Baptist pastor in Illinois for anumber of years.
And along with his work as a, you know, a basically be a data
(19:20):
scientist, political scientist, crunching numbers around
religion in America. And so he'll be there talking
about some of that. What does the data say about
where we're headed as a church and what can we do about it?
So it's always very interesting and challenging to hear hear
Ryan talk about what he sees in the numbers.
Well, just from your vantage point and the work you're doing
(19:42):
and, and I was looking at the numbers he was laying out too.
What do you think the numbers are saying and what's your
perspective on the future of thechurch?
Well, here's what I would say ifwe're talking about big C
Church, Christ Church, I have nofears about any of that.
You know, there's the spirit is moving and lively and doing
awesome things in the church allaround the world.
(20:04):
And so I'm not really concerned about that end of things.
You do get a little concerned when you start looking at it
from a denominational perspective because the numbers
for denominations across the board are not great.
And So what? Ryan challenged us recently in a
meeting I was. With him, I said, well, what is
the, what is the thing you you would say we ought to look for,
(20:25):
you know, like, what do we need to be paying attention to?
And he said, watch for the demographic Cliff, which is to
say, you know, denominations andchurches can be chugging along
just fine as they age. And then pretty soon it just
drops off very rapidly. You know, a generation is is
lost and passes on and you're just not able to recover like
(20:47):
you were before. And so that's something to watch
before Buddy said, you know, theantidote for them as a
congregation was to be very focused on mission and to say to
themselves of the church, what can we do in our community to
really make a difference? And they found a thing and they
did it well. And that really made a
difference in their spirit, no matter what was happening with
(21:09):
the numbers. And I think that's certainly
true of what CBF is doing, and I'm sure other denominations do
too, is how can we be faithful to what God has called us to do?
Because that's really, that's really what we should care
about. Not really.
Are we successful? Is are we faithful?
Yeah, well, the assemblies in Saint Louis, it is going to be
(21:30):
West of the Mississippi. So that means you all are kind
of hosting this. And again, I applaud whoever's
idea it was to work in a ball game.
Of course the Cubs are in town. Did you say Illinois is in the
heartland too? It is so it's a heartland on
heartland game. How?
Important would you say? I'm always interested how they
decide where to where to put these.
How important is it to have the assembly in your neighborhood,
(21:53):
so to speak? And for someone who may not have
ever been, why would someone want to go?
Well, let me answer the second one first, just to say I think
the assembly is a tremendously inspiring few days and it's
really CBF at its best. You know, we get to see field
personnel face to face, hear from them about the work they're
(22:14):
doing all around the world, hearfrom thought leaders and
ministry leaders about sort of innovative of things they're
doing, you know, get get encouragement and find new ideas
and go back to the places where we serve in our own contexts
with, you know, just a renewed spirit.
And I so that's what I love. I love the preaching that we
(22:34):
hear. Walk out of those meetings just
fired up most of the time. I think you have some Heartland
representation this year. We do, yeah.
We're really excited about Melissa Hatfield from First
Baptist. Jefferson City is preaching one
of the services. So very excited about that.
But I think I think it is important to have these meetings
in places that are not in the traditional footprint of CBF,
(22:56):
which is generally towards the southeastern part of the United
States. What that does is it gives
opportunities for people in congregations that are out here
maybe more on the frontier. They have a chance to come and
experience all of what I just talked about first hand rather
than hearing about CBF is just this, I don't even know what
that is. And it, I guess it's the group
(23:18):
that we that our church next with, they get to come and
experience that and then their life in their own church begins
to transform a little bit. When they're talking about
missions, when they're talking about ministries, they know that
they are connected to a global network, global community that
can be supportive of them and give them ideas, but also
(23:39):
receive ideas from them and celebrate the kind of ministries
that are happening in local congregation.
So that's why I think it's important.
Well, I've got you for another minute or two and I've got 2 no
thoughts and I'm going to let you go on this.
First of all, are the Cardinals making the playoffs this year?
I think they're surprising people right now.
I don't, I don't watch Fox Midwest like I used to, but how
(24:01):
are they doing right now in youropinion?
I think they're OK. The last time I paid attention
to the Cardinals was when they were playing the Royals, which
is on the side of the state I'm on, and they are basically
similar teams around 500 have hopes of making the playoffs,
but it's sort of cross your fingers.
(24:22):
If I was betting on those two, Iwould think the Cardinals have a
better chance simply because of the organization.
The Cardinals organization has been top tier for decades and so
I'll put my money on them. OK, last one.
This is close to Father's Day. It is so I'm.
Looking at you, I want to say Happy Father's Day.
(24:43):
Thank you and. To you, and we were talking
earlier about the age of your kids and just as we go, do you
have like a general word maybe of commentary about being a dad
or any words of support to dads?I will say being a dad is one of
the most awesome things that's apart of my life.
But I foolishly believed that mywork was done when they turned
(25:06):
18. I had that in the back of my
mind as as we were raising our children.
And now I've realized since they're all grown and pretty
much moved out, being a dad getsharder as they get older.
It's it's wonderful, it's enriching, but the decisions are
more impactful. They don't necessarily ask you
for advice all the time, and so the stress level actually goes
(25:28):
up as they get older. Yeah.
Well, I really appreciate your time and it's so good to catch
up with you again. Likewise, it's good to see you.
You've been listening to Jeff Lankford, who is the coordinator
for CBF Heartland. Until next time you take care.
Hey, everybody. Thanks for tuning in.
I'm very excited about our guesttoday.
For our segment, we're going to have Jeff Lankford with us.
He is the coordinator for Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.
Heartland. First of all, how are you doing?
I'm doing great, Danny. Awesome to see you.
Listen likewise. I know I'm seeing you, but folks
won't be seeing us. Fortunately for them, they'll
(00:20):
just have to to hear us instead of see us.
Listen, let me get this out of the way first.
Who do I have to thank for scheduling ACBF night at Busch
Stadium during the General Assembly?
Well, that was collective wisdom, but I did encourage them
basically, hey, if the Cardinalsare in town, let's not fight
that. Let's just roll with it and and
(00:41):
have a fun night together because Cardinals versus Cubs,
there's a lot of people who wantto see that, so let's go do it
together. Well, let.
Me ask you this and I'm I was inMissouri for about 12 years and
I believe I was there when the designation was changed to
Heartland. Can you tell me maybe what the
geographic layout of the land isfor CBF Heartland?
(01:01):
Sure. Heartland is a 12 state region,
basically a bunch of the Midwestern states, upper
Midwestern states that go from, you know, Kansas on the West
side all the way to Ohio on the east and kind of up to the
Canada border. So it's a, it's a total of 12
states. We started this CBF Missouri,
but we always had relationships with churches that were on the
(01:24):
border of Missouri, either on the Kansas side of Kansas City
or the Illinois side of Saint Louis, and then even up into
Iowa. And it always felt weird to be
talking to a church or giving greetings in a service from CBF
Missouri when I was standing in Kansas or in Iowa or Illinois.
(01:46):
So we changed our name to the Heartland just to be inclusive
of those folks. And then eventually the North
Central region, which included that group of states that are
kind of east of Missouri, they, they needed to kind of close up
shop and we incorporated those states as well.
It's, it's a large geographic footprint.
(02:07):
But in terms of relationships, we weren't taking on a whole
bunch more churches or anything like that.
We just extended welcome and relationship to a few more
churches and a lot more people, but we were happy to do that.
How many churches are in Heartland, Jeff?
It's about 25 churches who actively support us.
There's a lot of different kindsof relationships, as you know,
(02:29):
that are that are part of CBF, but the supporting churches is
about 25. OK.
Yeah. Well, last coordinator and we
were talking before we started arecording, you started as
coordinator in 2016, right? Can you share a little bit of
the the trajectory that led you to this position?
Yeah. Well, I started with CBF
Heartland as the Associate Coordinator in November 2004.
(02:53):
Leslie Limbaugh was the associate before me, and she was
over in the Saint Louis area, isstill a pastor in an American
Baptist Church in Festus, MO. But I came on board, you know,
kind of filling the role she hadas associate coordinator and
worked there for more than 10 years underneath Harold
Phillips's leadership. And I just got a a really great
(03:14):
education about what the role isand how to support churches, the
work and the the meaning of the work.
And so it was sort of an easy transition when Harold decided
it was time to retire for me to shift into the leadership of the
organization. I certainly had thoughts about
what we could be doing as an organization that we're not in,
you know, competition at all with what what Harold wanted to
(03:37):
do. But they were a little bit
different because I'm a different person and a a
different generation, I think, and also came at it from a
different perspective, never having served on a church staff
before or anything like that. I came at it from a layperson's
perspective initially. I was reading a little bit about
your bio and I that's interesting and I was going to
ask you, it's been about 10 years.
(03:58):
Have there been any lessons you may have learned or any
surprises that you may have stumbled upon?
I mean, there's lots of lessons that I feel like I probably
should have learned earlier, youknow, like from my mom or
something. Don't judge a book by its cover.
That's a good lesson that you always have to learn.
That's been around for a while. Yeah, get that good things take
(04:21):
time. That's one of the lessons that
I'm learning right now. Just that they're consistent
work over a long period of time is sometimes what what it takes
to get good things done in the world.
Even with churches, even with people with the best of
intentions, even with really great people that you're working
with, sometimes it just takes a little bit of time to get things
done. That's one.
(04:42):
Yeah, well, and again, you've done this for several years.
Why do you find yourself doing most in terms of relating to the
churches or the the pastors or the staff?
Yeah, it's really all about relationships, Danny.
I mean, I sort of react initially to things as a problem
solver, but I've learned over time that that's not necessarily
what's initially is needed, you know, for me to solve anybody's
(05:06):
problems. It's just relationships.
People, ministers and churches and lay leaders and churches
need support, need a good listening ear, need to be
encouraged. And for someone with an outside
perspective sometimes to see things that they can't see,
encourage them about great things that they're doing that
maybe they've lost sight of. You know, perhaps see a tiny
(05:30):
little nugget or tweak that could be made that could make a
difference. But mostly it's just about being
a good friend to people. I remember, of course, we knew
each other when I worked there in Missouri for those years and
kind of with our little corner of the empire, I would jokingly
say in Springfield, as far as CBF goes, you'd have to go there
on purpose. You know, it was kind of out of
(05:50):
the way. And I wonder, I guess I'm
hearing you say the sense of isolation, it may be loneliness
even. Do you find that to still be an
issue? Yeah.
I think it certainly is for ministers because of the nature
of their calling, you know, feelisolated, certainly within their
work context, but sometimes evenfrom one another.
(06:11):
So creating opportunities for engagement between ministers is
is pretty important as well. I would say, Danny, in some ways
that it's not dissimilar to whata lot of people experience in
their lives. So ministers are reflective of
the larger moves that are happening around our, around our
(06:31):
country, in culture in general. Lots of people feel isolated,
lots of people feel burned out. But ministers are not exempt
from that, even though they're spiritual, you know.
Yeah, we know this is the the season for Baptist start meeting
and doing things. And I was curious for those who
may not know what the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
is and, and you can deal with this from your regional
(06:53):
perspective, but I know you havebeen involved with CBF from a
national standpoint. How would you describe the CBF
and maybe just briefly, how did you get connected with CBF?
Sure. Well, I would describe, I think
the best word for CBF is community.
If I was to boil it down into one word, it is a community of
(07:14):
churches and Christians basically trying to work
collaboratively together to do good in the world.
That's what it boils down to. And, you know, there's, there's
no real power a structure withinCBF that's telling churches what
to do CBF is inviting churches to into relationship to
collaborate together and to support things together that we
(07:36):
feel is important. So I don't know how that
compares to all denominations. But you know, my experience in
CBF has been really life giving.People want to be there when you
come together for a meeting, it's, it feels like a family
reunion. And it's because we love each
other. You know, we, we are caring,
thoughtful Christians and that extends into how we operate
(07:58):
together. I got involved because I, I
joined Second Baptist Church in Liberty, MO, where I live.
I'm just as a layperson and I'vebeen a serious church member my
whole life. You know, from my grew up with
my parents as, as committed laypeople.
And I was like that my whole life too, all through children
and youth group and all that stuff.
(08:19):
I went to, I went to a state school, but was very involved in
the Baptist Student Union there,you know, in leadership and
things. So I took my faith seriously.
And so I connected with Harold Phillips at, at Second Liberty
and we were in a Renavari group together, just got to know each
other a little bit. And he roped me into doing a
little bit bit of volunteering for CBF Missouri back in the
(08:42):
day. And I did that, was on the
coordinating council, learned more about it, liked what I saw.
And then when the job came open,it really matched with my faith
passions and my work experience meshed together really well and
I felt like it was a good calling, a good match, you know,
And here I am 20 years later. So I think it was.
(09:02):
I'm of an age. I had one of these birthdays
with a 0 on the end of it a short time ago.
But if my math is right, BBF as an organization was founded
around 1991, so I'm guessing. I'm guessing that makes us
around 34 years of age, so fairly young I would imagine.
And you may have answered this, but do you, do you still think
(09:25):
CBF is important and why? And maybe what are some things
that you believe CBF does well? Well, I do think it's important.
If you look at some of the data it would say that from a number
standpoint, the larger culture is saying that CBF is an
important. Denominations are by and large
on the decline. The churches that are growing
(09:47):
are non denominational churches by and large.
And all of that says that a denominational entity, if you
were going to start a Business Today, that wouldn't be your
number one choice from a numbersperspective.
But in terms of giving life to congregations, I do feel like
it's, it's very, very important the work that we do, the kinds
(10:09):
of connections that we're able to create, connecting people to
one another, connecting people to different kinds of ministries
that can enliven the spirit, spark imagination, connecting
people to mission endeavors thatthey can be really proud of and
to a missiology that is is doinggood instead of doing harm.
I mean, I, I think there's lots of different ways that this
(10:32):
organization of CBF can give life to churches.
And that's, it's really what it's all about.
It's, it's for the church and for and for individual
Christians that are interested in those things.
It's not to, it's not about the life of the organization itself.
It's about who we're serving. And I feel like that still is
vitally important. I remember attending an assembly
(10:53):
a few years ago, I forget what year it was, but something was
announced from the platform thatI kind of made my ears perk up.
They were saying for the first time there were more seminary
graduates from non SBC schools and I thought I found that to be
interesting. Of course I was raised in that
environment and grateful for it.But I'm, I guess I'm asking from
a generational standpoint. It may be from an age
(11:16):
standpoint. You find different ages look at
CBF in different ways. I think so.
I have a colleague at CBF who's someone I would consider very
young, you know, like the age ofmy children.
And so and I'm seeing my children, seeing younger
colleagues. I do think they see things
differently, but I would think that some of the lessons that
(11:36):
older generations learned about life in the church, about
organizations and power in organizations, the importance of
good theological frameworks thatare behind some of those
decisions that you make. I think the older generations,
we just haven't remembered all the lessons.
You know, some of the younger generations will eventually
discover the wisdom that the older generations gave to us.
(12:00):
And I appreciate some of the younger folks I think about, you
know, Kelly and some of my children, Kelly and I are going
to become coming to Saint Louis here pretty soon.
They don't really get caught up in, I guess, some of the battles
that were fought back in the day.
And that brings me to this othertopic about Walter Sharden's 4
fragile freedoms. And, and again, I'm kind of
dating myself. I think that's a classic book
(12:21):
about these 4 freedoms. I guess I'm asking from your
interaction with some of the churches, do you find these
distinctions alive and well, or do they still matter?
Yeah, I don't think they're talked about in the same way,
Danny, but I think they do matter.
And perhaps maybe a a topic thatwould resonate really well is
the topic of women in ministry, for instance.
(12:44):
I'll bet you younger generationswouldn't think that
denominational fights are that important, and I certainly
didn't either when I was younger.
I had totally checked out of thedenominational world, but if you
ask me, is it important that women in ministry, women are
seen as equally called by God? I would have said, of course
that's important, but that's nota given everywhere.
(13:06):
And sometimes that does break down into denominational.
One difference between CBF and other denominations and so.
Does it? Matter, Yeah.
Yeah. And of course, right now I'm
kind of picking at my phone. I know the SBCI think that's one
of the issues. It's kind of deja vu all over
again. They're voting on whether to
exclude the churches who have pastors who are women.
(13:27):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole idea of
excluding churches is really peculiar to me anyway, because I
can't imagine, you know, deciding to exclude a church if
some, if a church wanted to comework with CBFI would say yes.
And that what that does is it makes CBF a more diverse place,
(13:48):
a more vibrant place where there's not a sense of
monolithic thinking at all. You know, there are, there's a
diversity of opinion in lots of different areas in CBF, even
when it's sometimes uncomfortable.
So I, I think that's great. I think that's the way the
church ought to be. Certainly we see that in in what
we see in the Scriptures about the early church.
There were some challenging moments that pushed people
(14:11):
further than they thought they were going to go, but that's
what Christ LED them. Well, do you keep up with Brian
Kaylor over that way? I try as much as I can.
Brian is man. He's a tremendous leader in, you
know, religious freedom. And I want to get him back to
the four fragile freedoms. I mean, he's, he's sharp.
I wanted to get him on here but I I feel like I need to get his
book first. Before, I appreciate that.
(14:33):
I think so, but he speaks a lot to Christian nationalism.
Yes, And I'm kind of a little out of touch with things over in
your neighborhood. Do you find any significant
challenges or issues with this area?
It does seem like it's rearing its ugly head just about
everywhere in the country. Missouri's certainly no
exception to that. A lot of people feel like that's
(14:56):
the right thing for our country,and I think Brian does a great
job of educating people about the dangers of that way of
thinking. I certainly never have looked to
the government for faith leadership.
That's not something that I would want.
And I don't think that fusing the two would make faith any
stronger in the United States. I think it would weaken faith
(15:18):
more than anything. And we as we as Christians ought
to be really scared about a movement that is putting faith
leadership in the hands of government.
I think it's like a cliche, but it's kind of like anytime
there's a an effort to to merge the church and the government,
it seems like the church loses every time.
Absolutely, for sure. Well, with your word, do you
find that church is still more or less embrace the Baptist's
(15:42):
identity in there? Maybe in their name of the
church? Or what kind of perceptions do
people have? I see you smiling there.
Well, you said name of church, so I've, I've been in the role
long enough to see lots of churches wrestle with Baptist.
And what does it mean? They certain there's no church
that I'm connected with that is wanting to distance itself from
(16:04):
Baptist principles. The four fragile freedoms that
you mentioned, those, those are highly valued, but the Baptist
name, not so much. Lots of churches I know have
tried to figure out a way to getBaptist out of the name because
Baptist in our larger culture iskind of a dirty word.
It stands for things that CBF doesn't feel like are actually
(16:27):
Baptist. You know, there's there's a mean
spiritedness that gets attached to Baptist that does not, it's
not reflective of who we are. And so, you know, one of my
churches here in the Kansas Cityarea took Baptist out of the
name as a way of being more inclusive to people who are
active in the church who didn't grow up Baptist, you know, grew
(16:47):
up in Methodist churches or Catholic churches or wherever.
And so Baptist didn't necessarily fit them anymore.
So I think that I thought that was a really the interesting
approach to it, just to say Baptist is, is being
exclusionary in our culture and maybe we need to take that out
of our name. Even though with that in mind, I
mean. Principles.
Yeah. And I mentioned the SPC is
(17:07):
meeting this week and they usually, I know I was going to
ask you from the standpoint of these Baptist meetings and I was
going to ask Paul this probably in a couple weeks.
Do we go into this thinking, yes, we made the news or yes, we
didn't make the news. I mean, which would be the
preferable way to go? I think preferable, preferable
would be to not make the news atall.
(17:29):
We are not, we're not going to pass any resolutions.
You know, we're not trying to make a statement about anything.
We're just trying to strengthen our ministries, collaborate and
fellowship together, renew our spirits when we're there.
And so that's maybe not newsworthy for most people.
Let me just touch on this one more time.
I grew up Southern Baptist and of course there are a lot of
(17:52):
younger generation that may not have that identity or
affiliation going up. But does it still matter of what
they do as a denomination in thepronouncements they make?
Or do you find yourself maybe having to react to it or speak
to it in different ways? I mean, that's a, that's a great
question. I really haven't paid a lot of
attention to the SBC in many, many years.
(18:14):
I too grew up Southern Baptist. I'm grateful for how I grew up.
Certainly the biblical foundations that it my churches
provided me when I was growing up or are still paying
dividends, you know, but I also want to be, there's so much
ministry and work that that Christ has called us to do here
that I don't pay a lot of attention to something that's
(18:37):
going to cause conflict somewhere else, right?
I'll let the Spirit work on them.
And because the Spirit's certainly working on on me and
on us. So there's enough there.
Yeah, I think that's a good approach.
I would much rather, I know there's a certain sense of
saying that we're not like that,but I think it's more to say
what do we stand for in the positive ways.
(18:58):
Now Ryan Burge is going to make an appearance at the General
Assembly. I don't know, Ryan do.
You, I Yes, I've met Ryan a few times.
You know, he's here in the heartland.
He lives. Oh, that's right, he wrote an
article about his church, didn'the?
Yeah, yeah. He's, he's been an American
Baptist pastor in Illinois for anumber of years.
And along with his work as a, you know, a basically be a data
(19:20):
scientist, political scientist, crunching numbers around
religion in America. And so he'll be there talking
about some of that. What does the data say about
where we're headed as a church and what can we do about it?
So it's always very interesting and challenging to hear hear
Ryan talk about what he sees in the numbers.
Well, just from your vantage point and the work you're doing
(19:42):
and, and I was looking at the numbers he was laying out too.
What do you think the numbers are saying and what's your
perspective on the future of thechurch?
Well, here's what I would say ifwe're talking about big C
Church, Christ Church, I have nofears about any of that.
You know, there's the spirit is moving and lively and doing
awesome things in the church allaround the world.
(20:04):
And so I'm not really concerned about that end of things.
You do get a little concerned when you start looking at it
from a denominational perspective because the numbers
for denominations across the board are not great.
And So what? Ryan challenged us recently in a
meeting I was. With him, I said, well, what is
the, what is the thing you you would say we ought to look for,
(20:25):
you know, like, what do we need to be paying attention to?
And he said, watch for the demographic Cliff, which is to
say, you know, denominations andchurches can be chugging along
just fine as they age. And then pretty soon it just
drops off very rapidly. You know, a generation is is
lost and passes on and you're just not able to recover like
(20:47):
you were before. And so that's something to watch
before Buddy said, you know, theantidote for them as a
congregation was to be very focused on mission and to say to
themselves of the church, what can we do in our community to
really make a difference? And they found a thing and they
did it well. And that really made a
difference in their spirit, no matter what was happening with
(21:09):
the numbers. And I think that's certainly
true of what CBF is doing, and I'm sure other denominations do
too, is how can we be faithful to what God has called us to do?
Because that's really, that's really what we should care
about. Not really.
Are we successful? Is are we faithful?
Yeah, well, the assemblies in Saint Louis, it is going to be
(21:30):
West of the Mississippi. So that means you all are kind
of hosting this. And again, I applaud whoever's
idea it was to work in a ball game.
Of course the Cubs are in town. Did you say Illinois is in the
heartland too? It is so it's a heartland on
heartland game. How?
Important would you say? I'm always interested how they
decide where to where to put these.
How important is it to have the assembly in your neighborhood,
(21:53):
so to speak? And for someone who may not have
ever been, why would someone want to go?
Well, let me answer the second one first, just to say I think
the assembly is a tremendously inspiring few days and it's
really CBF at its best. You know, we get to see field
personnel face to face, hear from them about the work they're
(22:14):
doing all around the world, hearfrom thought leaders and
ministry leaders about sort of innovative of things they're
doing, you know, get get encouragement and find new ideas
and go back to the places where we serve in our own contexts
with, you know, just a renewed spirit.
And I so that's what I love. I love the preaching that we
(22:34):
hear. Walk out of those meetings just
fired up most of the time. I think you have some Heartland
representation this year. We do, yeah.
We're really excited about Melissa Hatfield from First
Baptist. Jefferson City is preaching one
of the services. So very excited about that.
But I think I think it is important to have these meetings
in places that are not in the traditional footprint of CBF,
(22:56):
which is generally towards the southeastern part of the United
States. What that does is it gives
opportunities for people in congregations that are out here
maybe more on the frontier. They have a chance to come and
experience all of what I just talked about first hand rather
than hearing about CBF is just this, I don't even know what
that is. And it, I guess it's the group
(23:18):
that we that our church next with, they get to come and
experience that and then their life in their own church begins
to transform a little bit. When they're talking about
missions, when they're talking about ministries, they know that
they are connected to a global network, global community that
can be supportive of them and give them ideas, but also
(23:39):
receive ideas from them and celebrate the kind of ministries
that are happening in local congregation.
So that's why I think it's important.
Well, I've got you for another minute or two and I've got 2 no
thoughts and I'm going to let you go on this.
First of all, are the Cardinals making the playoffs this year?
I think they're surprising people right now.
I don't, I don't watch Fox Midwest like I used to, but how
(24:01):
are they doing right now in youropinion?
I think they're OK. The last time I paid attention
to the Cardinals was when they were playing the Royals, which
is on the side of the state I'm on, and they are basically
similar teams around 500 have hopes of making the playoffs,
but it's sort of cross your fingers.
(24:22):
If I was betting on those two, Iwould think the Cardinals have a
better chance simply because of the organization.
The Cardinals organization has been top tier for decades and so
I'll put my money on them. OK, last one.
This is close to Father's Day. It is so I'm.
Looking at you, I want to say Happy Father's Day.
(24:43):
Thank you and. To you, and we were talking
earlier about the age of your kids and just as we go, do you
have like a general word maybe of commentary about being a dad
or any words of support to dads?I will say being a dad is one of
the most awesome things that's apart of my life.
But I foolishly believed that mywork was done when they turned
(25:06):
18. I had that in the back of my
mind as as we were raising our children.
And now I've realized since they're all grown and pretty
much moved out, being a dad getsharder as they get older.
It's it's wonderful, it's enriching, but the decisions are
more impactful. They don't necessarily ask you
for advice all the time, and so the stress level actually goes
(25:28):
up as they get older. Yeah.
Well, I really appreciate your time and it's so good to catch
up with you again. Likewise, it's good to see you.
You've been listening to Jeff Lankford, who is the coordinator
for CBF Heartland. Until next time you take care.
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