June 23, 2025 • 30 mins
In this conversation, Dr. Rick Bennett, coordinator of Tennessee CBF, shares his journey in ministry, the challenges faced by pastors today, and the diverse landscape of churches in Tennessee. He also talks about the need for community engagement and the mission of CBF. Rick has been Field Coordinator of Tennessee CBF since 2016.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey everybody. We're glad to have you here
today. I'm very excited to have our
special guest with us, Doctor Rick Bennett.
Rick is the coordinator of Tennessee CBF and and Rick, it's
good to see you. It's good to be here.
Let's start off with a controversial question.
Is it Tennessee CBF or is it CBFof Tennessee?
So legally it is Tennessee Cooperative Baptist Fellowship,
(00:23):
but in keeping with kind of an effort about 10 years ago to
aimed toward consistency, most of the state organizations have
taken up CBF and then whatever their state name is.
So I kind of use them both interchangeably.
And to make matters worse, sometimes I call it just TCBF.
(00:44):
I understand. I was reading a little bit of
your bio. You said you started with
Tennessee CBF in 2016. Can you tell us a little bit
about your ministry trajectory up until this point?
Yes. So I think I've served in just
about every ministry capacity inthe local church except for
Minister of Music. I'm not qualified in any way to
(01:05):
do that, though. I do love singing and hymnity,
but I started out basically as summer youth and children's
worker and I did several of those before going to seminary
and then becoming an associate pastor in short term kind of
opportunities during seminary. And then when I graduated, had
my first full time ministry opportunity as associate pastor
(01:28):
for education and youth. And then I had this really cool
period before going to Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
where I was the pastoral educator at First Baptist Church
in Orangeburg, SC. And people would frequently ask
me, both colleagues and church members would ask me was my role
to educate the pastor sometimes.I say.
(01:51):
I see the expression on your face there.
I think that's a. That's a.
He was a great guy, but every once in a while, but seriously,
it was a brainchild. It was his brainchild, that
particular role and title with some Christian educator friends
of his. And it was a really cool vision.
It took a lot of interpretation,so I'm not sure about the
(02:11):
returns on it, but it was, it was a really intriguing concept
that really helped me expand my understanding of spiritual
formation and Christian education as a component of 1's
spiritual formation. And it was happening about the
same time that Baptists were wrestling with the terminology
(02:32):
of spiritual formation and wondering how is that different
from Christian education, that kind of things.
It was a season of, I think, helping and of learning myself
what the relationship was and helping other people kind of
come to that as well. And that presented it that that
whole thing presented itself as an opportunity or gave me an
(02:54):
opportunity to work for Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
as the spiritual formation guy. And so I went and did that for
nine years and then I was calledto a pastor role in North
Carolina. And then in 2016, in the midst
of kind of wondering what in theworld God was doing with all of
these different things that I had done, this opportunity came
(03:18):
and and they told me that they were looking for someone
specifically with senior pastor experience.
And that kind of rounded me out.Check help, check all the boxes
for me. And yeah, been here since then.
Well. I wanted to follow up on your
experience in the local church because in other regions or
other states, serving on a church staff may not necessarily
(03:39):
be part of the requirements. But have you found serving on a
church staff and especially in the pastor it has that helped
you minister to US pastor and clergy types in your churches?
I think it's huge and I have a big heart for pastors because I
have done the work. I know the struggle, I know the
challenge, I know the the joys and the benefits of it, but also
(04:01):
the challenges. So I think it gives me a very
empathetic ear, but it also raises the question for me and
my visits with pastors, how can I or how can Tennessee CBF
support your ministry? And so we we've kind of do that
in response to whatever the answer is.
But one of the strategies that we've done that or one of the
(04:22):
tactics that we've used to do that is to offer the annual
pastors retreat for the first time.
And I think we've done that about five of the almost nine
years that I've been here. But yeah, I think having that
experience is, is just tremendous that because that
that anyone in my role, the senior pastor is going to be the
first contact that they make. And the enduring, well, maybe
(04:44):
not the enduring contact becausethey come and go, but they're
going to be the first contact. And I think coming with that
experience, coming with that heart for that work, I think
makes all the difference. Yeah.
Well, I was going to follow up on that because the retreats for
me personally, and I think otherpastors too, it's just been
(05:05):
really good to get away on occasion and it kind of be open
with each other. But there is a lot being written
right now about pastor and clergy burnout and that's going
to get your, your perspective onthe mental and the spiritual
health of the ministers these days.
Yeah. So it's definitely, I think more
challenging than it was pre COVID.
(05:27):
And so that has certainly offered and surfaced some unique
challenges, I think. So I see the stress, I hear the
stress. I try to respond to the stress
by being a friend and a supporter as well.
Fortunately, I think and in somecases we've been able to avert
some some crashes and burns. That's the right way to say
(05:48):
that. But we haven't had any
spectacular crashes that I know of.
Most, most of those pastors seemto, to be maintaining a solid
degree of emotional and mental health.
But they're, I guess what I'm trying to say is it is harder
than it used to be, it seems. And a lot of that I think is
stress around numbers. You know, there has been a
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shrinking since COVID that has not rebounded, I think across
the board as we had hoped. And I hear a lot about that
everywhere I go and the challenge that that presents for
budgets and ministries and and all those kinds of things.
So I think we're very much stillin the in the process of kind of
reimagining what church looks like from here and often times
(06:35):
doing it in a massive plant thatrequires a great deal of funding
to maintain and to sustain. These are consistent challenges
that I see in almost all places people wondering how can we use
to be the best stewards of this building go forward.
It seems like it's a dynamic conversation that needs to
happen frequently. I can only imagine some of the
(06:57):
conversations that you have withchurches or individuals, leaders
in the church who call you and maybe dealing with a particular
issue in the church. And then of course, you shepherd
us a pastor types. I was wanting to ask you, what
are some things that you would like churches to know about
pastors and ministers and the work that we do and maybe some
(07:19):
of the the challenges that we face, but we don't often talk
about this. Yeah, yeah.
So I think first and foremost, it almost sounds ridiculous to
say, but your pastor is human with all that that comes with
the fact that they have a advanced degree, master's level
degree does not make them any kind of super hired holy men and
(07:40):
women. And it kind of part and parcel
with that is that they have emotions, have feelings that
they're managing and trying to process.
And they need support, emotionalsupport and encouragement and
challenge, but definitely articulated emotional support
and encouragement from from timeto time.
You know, you don't need to understand them, but they do
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need to know that you are, you're with them and affirm what
it is that that they're offeringboth within the church and, and
in the community. And, and that kind of leads me
to the second thing is when you see a pastor reaching out to a
community and it looks almost like they're neglecting their
church. They're just being missional,
which is, is the, the reason forthe existence of the church.
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You know, the church exists for a purpose.
The question has been asked, areyou a church with a mission or
mission with the church? And that's not it's not coming
to me. There's a better way to ask
that. But but the the idea is that,
you know, essentially that the church exists for God's mission
in the world. And, you know, being outside the
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walls takes the embodied leadership of the the pastor to
set an example for that kind of thing.
Well, you've been doing this fora while, and when I say doing
this, I mean coordinator of the state, the volunteer state.
When you think about the things that you do, what are some
things that you would say I really like about this?
What are some things that you say this is kind of fun, if I
(09:04):
may use that word, that you enjoy?
What are some things that you you do in this role that you
say? I really like doing this.
I would say absolutely love justthe ability to be in
relationship and to visit with pastors and staff.
But this might be surprising laypeople.
I love to connect with lay leaders in each congregation and
(09:25):
I have as my goal and have had as my goal almost since the time
that I landed in Tennessee, to know to be able to identify
facial recognition when I walk into any of those churches, at
least three key lay leaders and to understand something about
their ministry. Because as I said earlier,
pastors come and go and oftentimes the relationship that
(09:46):
we have with the church really depends on the relationship that
we have with Kilay leaders afterthe pastor leaves.
There have been many examples, most of which I probably can't,
can't reference, where it has really made a huge difference
for me to be able to e-mail likea Kilay leader or I had a
Facebook friendship with them and was able to easily reach out
(10:09):
to them because we had a memorable conversation.
And, or oftentimes the, you know, the pastor will leave and,
and they will proactively reach out to me when he or she
announces their, their resignation in a request for
guidance and presence and resources.
So I, I really enjoy that kind of networking and kind of see my
(10:31):
ministry as a ministry of introduction, which is a term
that's borrowed from Doctor Dan Bagby, who was my pastoral care
professor at BTSR. He talked about ministry as, as
a sort of ministry of, of introduction in the role that
that plays, introducing people to, to like leaders who can then
share their, their knowledge base and their experience.
(10:52):
So for instance, I try to note especially who who in the church
has been a chair of deacons and I've had this long dream of
creating a community of Deacon chairs for Tennessee CBF where
they could, you know, share their experience.
I don't find that people want tocommit to a covenant way to a
group like that. So it kind of keeps it loose.
(11:14):
But I am able to say if I recognize if I have a
conversation with a Deacon chairor a key lay leader in a
specific congregation and I knowthat somebody else has gone
through the same thing or a pastor research or something
like that. I'm able to connect those those
two to one another and have often being able to do that.
Ministry of Introduction has been a huge support for.
(11:36):
Them I meant to ask you when we got started, but how many
churches would relate to or be connected with Tennessee CBF?
Yeah. So there are 30 churches that I
like to say have some degree of relationship to Tennessee CBF.
And that recognizes that there exists a spectrum, relational
(11:58):
spectrum that kind of qualifies the degree of relationship that
churches have. And that that spectrum exists in
my mind. So it often comes up in my mind
when somebody says, is that a CBF church?
And I'm like, well, what do you mean exactly by that?
But so, and I track those relationships constantly and
(12:20):
where they are. And I try to grow that
relationship along the the spectrum as well and to focus
kind of toward missional engagement with with
congregations and getting them into fellowship with one
another. That whole ministry of
introduction thing strengthens their relationship to Tennessee
CBF. So there are 30 churches across
the state, and it's an interesting contract because I'm
(12:41):
a N Carolinian originally and over there there are hundreds.
And there's a sociological and ahistorical reason for that.
But that's another call I. Wanted to ask you, I've been,
I've lived here for about 6 years.
I'm not in kind of a transplant like you're talking about.
And I've heard about the quote UN quote the three states of of
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Tennessee. Do you find our churches have
different personalities based upon maybe the region?
You mentioned the sociological, but is that reflected in the
personalities and you have that unique perspective?
Yeah, I would say there, you know, according to the
Constitution of Tennessee, thereare three grand divisions and
some people joke about them as being three different states.
(13:24):
And kind of to that point, thereis a state courthouse in each of
the divisions, unlike most states that just have one in
their capital. I did not know that.
Yeah, it's rather fascinating. And the fact that it's actually
in the Constitution that they'redifferent divisions is, is
fascinating to me. But it totally makes sense
because as I travel across the state, which is a fur piece, a
(13:47):
long drive, I do notice that that they are essentially 3
different cultures, subcultures,you would say.
And sometimes it's, it's highly nuanced and sometimes, you know,
even within a certain division seem to churches can be so
different. And I can usually generally
connect them to a particular Baptist tradition, like the
(14:08):
Charleston tradition or the Sandy Creek tradition and the
Texas tradition or the Georgia tradition, those kinds of
things. But yeah, it's, it's a very
diverse state. And I basically sometimes have
to remind myself where I am because I'll see it done very
differently, very differently, very uniquely.
And I'm like, OK, I can, I can locate this on kind of a
(14:31):
different spectrum. Yeah, some churches are really
high church and some churches are super low church, and
there's everything in between. That's so interesting to hear
you talk about that because whatyou're saying is on one Sunday
you could be in a really formal environment and then the
following Sunday you could be something very casual and you
kind of have to be all things toall people in a way.
Yes, yes. So I have a robe and I have
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stoles, but it's on a rare occasion that I use those.
But we have churches that do that kind of culture thing and
and then we have churches that would just like if, if, if they
realized other churches did that, they'd be scratching their
heads. I was going to ask you.
Points to the the beauty of the Baptist vision.
OK. Along with that, and not too
(15:15):
long ago, the Southern Baptist Convention met and of course,
they vote on different things. And do you still find yourself
responding to or relating to some of the decisions or actions
of the SBC as it relates to CBF life?
Do you get inquiries about what the SBC is doing, or is it still
important more or less to be aware of what they're doing?
(15:36):
I think it is still important tobe aware of what they're doing,
but it does not. Having grown up Southern
Baptists, it kind of intrigues me.
I've increasingly, as the years go by, I'm just like, you know,
that, that that's to be expected.
It's, it's not, you know, it's, it's not my circus kind of deal.
If you will, that's a good way of putting it.
(15:58):
That's an interesting term. Yeah, so I've got my own monkey
set, but it's interesting. I do have a lot of connections
within Tennessee, CBF across thestate, and a lot of different
churches. Some folks do follow that a lot
more closely for some reason it,it still concerns them, but I
just don't think that it deserves the the mental energy
(16:19):
that I think that would require.But interestingly, I visited the
Cumberland Presbyterians a couple days ago.
Their General Assembly is happening right now at the
airport in Knoxville, and they are.
They originated in West Tennessee and 1810.
And I've been so fascinated by by their presence In reality,
every time I see one of their churches, questions start
(16:40):
popping in my mind. And I've tried to make inroads
with them toward a partnership of some sort because what I've
discovered is they're so much like us.
So when I thought I had this opportunity to go to the airport
and visit their General Assembly, I did.
I hung out at the resource fair for about two hours and had
great conversations. And to your question, to a
person, when they asked me who Iwas and who I was with, they
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kind of, you know, it surprised them just generally when they
said bad, when I said Baptist, it's like that.
I can clearly see that they wereworking off of this stereotype
that all Baptists were just Baptists, that it was kind of
monolithic. And so I had to say to your
question, we're not that kind ofBaptist.
Because I was going to ask you about the, the, the name, the
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label of Baptist. Do you find that there's still
generally a desire on churches to keep the name Baptist in
their name? Or can have you noticed maybe a
shift to churches saying we're Baptist, but we don't
necessarily want to put it in our title because of
misconceptions? Yes.
To both of those, I think that the people who are kind of
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stalwart about it, you know, aresuper devoted to Baptist
principles, historic Baptist principles and really want to
make those known. I don't think they could imagine
it not being on their side. And I totally get that.
I share that passion for that. At the same time, I know that
the majority of the population coming and going either has no
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knowledge whatsoever or has a terrible stereotype in their
mind about what that means. And so I, yeah, I mean, I
wouldn't want to be the layperson who wakes up one day
to discover that their church isactually Baptist.
I wouldn't want to be that person kind of in the little B
Baptist tradition where you don't put it on the sign, but
you're organizing documents, sayso.
(18:30):
But I'm totally empathetic toward, sympathetic to churches
who decide that to reach a broader group of prospects that
they're not going to put it on their sign.
I think you can make a really super strong case for doing
that. Fortunately, that position two
allows you to be in relationshipto Tennessee CBF or the CBF in
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general. And you know, we've got a couple
churches that don't have Baptistin their name, but like the
church that I attended, Maryville Ecclesia on our sign
out fronts, just beneath the word ecclesia in kind of small
words, it says a CBF community. You've been doing this almost 10
years now as far as working in our state.
What do you know now that you didn't know then about some of
(19:14):
the ministry that you do in our state?
Yeah, I would say, well, it's, it's strange to say this.
We can always edit this out afterwards Rick if we need to.
Yeah, it's strange to say or to hear me say it, but I think that
this ministry is more important than I realized.
And, and I hear that and I have felt that trying to explain it
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to people was initially difficult, but I think has
become much, much easier, especially along the line of,
you know, supporting churches and pastors in particular is
where I spend most of my work, but also with lay leaders.
So I think I've discovered it's even more important than I
thought. I've certainly discovered that
that you got to be nimble in terms of remembering where you
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are and what church you're talking to and that you've got
to essentially treat each one individually like an individual
relationship. I mean, I think I knew.
I think I knew that deep down from my previous work with CBF
Global for nine years because I traveled to a lot of different
churches around the country. But within such a small area,
(20:21):
Well, Tennessee is pretty large,but within kind of 1.
Statehood unit, I didn't expect there to be as much diversity as
as there is. And then I think I just
discovered more about people andI mean things that I knew, but
just reaffirmed for me that it'struly a miracle that a lot of
people are sitting upright and that I just, you know, need to
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chill out and be with them and listen to them and be OK and
trust God with with that. That time spent with them and in
the name of Jesus is not going to come back void.
Well, we're getting close to theGeneral Assembly as we're
recording this, and there's somebody that's going to be
there I'm hoping to meet. His name is Ryan Burge, and I
(21:07):
see you nodding, kind of. He was a pastor of a church in
Illinois and he's kind of known as the Numbers and Graphs guy,
so to speak. And he's kind of tracking some
of the numbers as it relates to the denominations.
Let me kind of lead you on a step back away from Baptists
particular, but the church in general.
How do you, what's your kind of your perspective on the future
of the church? And following that up, do you
(21:29):
find that there's a generationaldifference in how people view
the church? Yeah, it seems to me like it's
going to be different, and there's conflict within me about
that because I love traditional church and I love supporting
traditional church. But I realize increasingly that
fewer people are asking me to support traditional church.
Got it. And and I see that the
(21:53):
generational distinction, I can even say that as as a recent as
my generation, it seems like there is a care for and maybe
even an emphasis on programming,maybe even traditional
programming. But kind of I've always thought
of myself as kind of older than my generation.
So I may that may be a little skewed, but one thing's for
sure, the younger generation seems to be much more focused on
(22:17):
relationships at all costs. And so I think that necessitates
a church that is simpler and more nimble and more casual, all
those kinds of things. And, and to be honest with you
that I kind of, I'm hopeful, butI'm grieving.
It's a weird kind of place to be.
And that's an interesting way toput it.
Yeah, yeah. It's like there's a particular
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kind of way that I love to worship and grew up worshiping
that way. And, and then at my very own
church, things are super simple.I mean, there's a song set and
there's a sermon and there's a benediction.
The mission statement of the church is to love.
Well, I mean that's pretty simple. 2 words and and so.
We're still working on that part.
(23:02):
Yes, it's aspirational for sure.Exactly.
More visionary than missionary, probably.
Yeah, yeah. For folks outside the
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, what are some perceptions that
are real or imagined that maybe you've had to deal with?
And I guess secondarily, why would someone want to be a part
of CBF? And I guess if more personally,
(23:22):
why are you part of CBF? Yeah, so I'm part of CBF because
when I was a religion major at Campbell University in the early
90s, I became interested finally, as the SBC was
fracturing. Initially, I became very
interested in what it meant to be a Baptist and I I discovered
that it did not mean adopting A doctrinal statement, but rather
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being on a spiritual journey that included and was formed by
and informed by dialogue with other people who've been on the
journey. So a balance of freedom and
responsibility in community thatwould hopefully help me become
more like Christ. And so that is very different in
my mind than some other churchesand traditions, which means kind
(24:04):
of like our forebear, Roger Williams, you know, that you
kind of come and you go and there's there's room for people
to to do that and there's room for people to explore.
But the dialogue is, is really important.
And I would say that for me, that is the CBF community.
I have seen people enter that community and I've seen people
(24:26):
depart the community. But there are Speaking of a
spectrum that there are people all along that spectrum within
the CBF community. It is truly a big tent where
people are working out their salvation, I think with the
benefit and the aid of communitywith with others.
And that's OK. That's totally OK.
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In my mind, that is the Baptist vision.
We do this together. We do it with a balance of
freedom and responsibility. And when we're in dialogue,
there is no, there's no conforming thing that says you
have to be like this or worship like this or dress like this.
So when we go to assembly, we see a little bit of everything.
(25:09):
And I was intrigued by my youngest son was working age
level assemblies, which is childcare and activities at General
Assembly last year and they needed some extra help.
So he recruited one of his friends who didn't really have
the best relationship to church and he is a little, he's
different. So he spent a week helping with
age level assembly at at GeneralAssembly.
(25:33):
And he came back and he told my son that he'd never experienced
a church group like that, religious group like that, that
he literally felt welcomed and that the way he dressed did not,
you know, 'cause attention or concern, what have you.
It was really heartwarming for for me to hear that.
(25:56):
So I'm a part of CBF #1 because I think it is centered in the
mission of God in the world. And then it takes all kinds to
work on that, that mission, believing that God's mission to
reconcile and renew all things according to Revelation includes
us and, and, and we're invited into partnership.
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And that is pretty much the nature of CBF is partnership.
And, you know, we're just all bunch of misfits.
The island of misfit toys. Making T-shirts.
Yeah, exactly. And, and we're, we're trying to
do this thing together and inviting other people,
(26:38):
especially those who've been marginalized and outcast who
don't fit the bill or the doctrinal statement to, to come
walk with us. I'm going to try to get you out
on here on this note, of course,we've been talking about or
you've been talking about the identity portion of being part
of the fellowship, but are thereanything as far as our own state
CBF, any events or initiatives that are coming up that you'd
(27:01):
like to speak to? Yeah, so I definitely want to
plug my new associate, Dave Mcneely, who is also my pastor.
He's part time pastor at our church, which is only about 11
years old. But Dave is leading our new
initiative called Connect Church, which is an opportunity
to have a meaningful connection with rural churches, which we
don't have a whole lot of. But to help those rural churches
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with an assets based community development approach to
reconnect or refresh their connection to their community
and assess their assets and see what kind of ministries they can
dream of together. The best thing about that is
that at the end of that process,they're they're going to get a
$5000 grant to kind of seed thatopportunity.
And so I'm really super excited about what that means and even
(27:46):
more excited that it doesn't have to be a Baptist Church.
Dave's got a Quaker church in the current cohort he's got.
We've been talking about the Cumberland Presbyterians as
potential recipients of that as well.
But it's consistent with our mission to resource Christians
and churches as they discover and fulfill their God-given
mission. We don't qualify Baptist
churches, so our ministry existsfor all churches and Christians.
(28:09):
So that I would say then also we've got General Assembly in
the fall, October three and fourat General First Baptist Church
Chattanooga, which they are stoked about.
We're excited about. We have so many breakout
opportunities, but. This is a three state deal.
Yeah, yeah. First time ever that three
states or probably even the two states have come together to do
(28:31):
a General Assembly and it just works so well and I'm super
excited about that. And then the last thing I'd say
is I've also been this week doing some work on Winter Youth
Summit, which is our every otheryear youth conference that is
held at First Baptist Huntsville, AL.
So and it draws students from several different States and
(28:54):
this year it's always actually the weekend of Martin Luther
King Junior weekend, but that's coming together and super
excited about that. And some churches will be
attending for the first time. I think Kings Cross Church and
Tullahoma will be attending for the first time.
Just excited about, you know, what God's going to do in the
lives of young people. I wish we could do that every
(29:15):
year. Well, I've tried to cover a few
topics, Rick, and we could just keep going back and forth, but
is there anything else you want to touch on before I let you go
as it relates to maybe life or ministry or CBF work in
particular? I would just come back around to
the truth. I don't think we can say this
enough to to the people who sit in the Pew and probably even to
(29:36):
our staff every once in a while.Is the God called calls us into
mission. God's mission to reconcile and
renew all things includes you. So you know you're not just
living a mundane life. God desires very much for you to
be a partner in this renewal andreconciliation question is how
are you going to do that? And so we exist to help churches
discover that and fulfill that. And I would hope that amidst all
(29:59):
of the things, I often think that pastors end up operating
like CEO's rather than pastors because there's so many things
that they're juggling, which is another thing I'd want people to
know about their pastor. Your pastor's probably got too
much on his or her plate. But in the midst of all that, I
think it's really easy to do, toforget the mission, to
experience mission drift. And I'm not necessarily talking
(30:20):
about your church's state admission, but the grand mission
that churches exist for, the mission of God in the world.
That's a good place to stop on where, Rick, I'm so grateful for
your time today. And we have been listening to
Doctor Rick Bennett, the Coordinator of CBF Tennessee.
And as always, thanks for listening.
Hey everybody. We're glad to have you here
today. I'm very excited to have our
special guest with us, Doctor Rick Bennett.
Rick is the coordinator of Tennessee CBF and and Rick, it's
good to see you. It's good to be here.
Let's start off with a controversial question.
Is it Tennessee CBF or is it CBFof Tennessee?
So legally it is Tennessee Cooperative Baptist Fellowship,
(00:23):
but in keeping with kind of an effort about 10 years ago to
aimed toward consistency, most of the state organizations have
taken up CBF and then whatever their state name is.
So I kind of use them both interchangeably.
And to make matters worse, sometimes I call it just TCBF.
(00:44):
I understand. I was reading a little bit of
your bio. You said you started with
Tennessee CBF in 2016. Can you tell us a little bit
about your ministry trajectory up until this point?
Yes. So I think I've served in just
about every ministry capacity inthe local church except for
Minister of Music. I'm not qualified in any way to
(01:05):
do that, though. I do love singing and hymnity,
but I started out basically as summer youth and children's
worker and I did several of those before going to seminary
and then becoming an associate pastor in short term kind of
opportunities during seminary. And then when I graduated, had
my first full time ministry opportunity as associate pastor
(01:28):
for education and youth. And then I had this really cool
period before going to Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
where I was the pastoral educator at First Baptist Church
in Orangeburg, SC. And people would frequently ask
me, both colleagues and church members would ask me was my role
to educate the pastor sometimes.I say.
(01:51):
I see the expression on your face there.
I think that's a. That's a.
He was a great guy, but every once in a while, but seriously,
it was a brainchild. It was his brainchild, that
particular role and title with some Christian educator friends
of his. And it was a really cool vision.
It took a lot of interpretation,so I'm not sure about the
(02:11):
returns on it, but it was, it was a really intriguing concept
that really helped me expand my understanding of spiritual
formation and Christian education as a component of 1's
spiritual formation. And it was happening about the
same time that Baptists were wrestling with the terminology
(02:32):
of spiritual formation and wondering how is that different
from Christian education, that kind of things.
It was a season of, I think, helping and of learning myself
what the relationship was and helping other people kind of
come to that as well. And that presented it that that
whole thing presented itself as an opportunity or gave me an
(02:54):
opportunity to work for Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
as the spiritual formation guy. And so I went and did that for
nine years and then I was calledto a pastor role in North
Carolina. And then in 2016, in the midst
of kind of wondering what in theworld God was doing with all of
these different things that I had done, this opportunity came
(03:18):
and and they told me that they were looking for someone
specifically with senior pastor experience.
And that kind of rounded me out.Check help, check all the boxes
for me. And yeah, been here since then.
Well. I wanted to follow up on your
experience in the local church because in other regions or
other states, serving on a church staff may not necessarily
(03:39):
be part of the requirements. But have you found serving on a
church staff and especially in the pastor it has that helped
you minister to US pastor and clergy types in your churches?
I think it's huge and I have a big heart for pastors because I
have done the work. I know the struggle, I know the
challenge, I know the the joys and the benefits of it, but also
(04:01):
the challenges. So I think it gives me a very
empathetic ear, but it also raises the question for me and
my visits with pastors, how can I or how can Tennessee CBF
support your ministry? And so we we've kind of do that
in response to whatever the answer is.
But one of the strategies that we've done that or one of the
(04:22):
tactics that we've used to do that is to offer the annual
pastors retreat for the first time.
And I think we've done that about five of the almost nine
years that I've been here. But yeah, I think having that
experience is, is just tremendous that because that
that anyone in my role, the senior pastor is going to be the
first contact that they make. And the enduring, well, maybe
(04:44):
not the enduring contact becausethey come and go, but they're
going to be the first contact. And I think coming with that
experience, coming with that heart for that work, I think
makes all the difference. Yeah.
Well, I was going to follow up on that because the retreats for
me personally, and I think otherpastors too, it's just been
(05:05):
really good to get away on occasion and it kind of be open
with each other. But there is a lot being written
right now about pastor and clergy burnout and that's going
to get your, your perspective onthe mental and the spiritual
health of the ministers these days.
Yeah. So it's definitely, I think more
challenging than it was pre COVID.
(05:27):
And so that has certainly offered and surfaced some unique
challenges, I think. So I see the stress, I hear the
stress. I try to respond to the stress
by being a friend and a supporter as well.
Fortunately, I think and in somecases we've been able to avert
some some crashes and burns. That's the right way to say
(05:48):
that. But we haven't had any
spectacular crashes that I know of.
Most, most of those pastors seemto, to be maintaining a solid
degree of emotional and mental health.
But they're, I guess what I'm trying to say is it is harder
than it used to be, it seems. And a lot of that I think is
stress around numbers. You know, there has been a
(06:10):
shrinking since COVID that has not rebounded, I think across
the board as we had hoped. And I hear a lot about that
everywhere I go and the challenge that that presents for
budgets and ministries and and all those kinds of things.
So I think we're very much stillin the in the process of kind of
reimagining what church looks like from here and often times
(06:35):
doing it in a massive plant thatrequires a great deal of funding
to maintain and to sustain. These are consistent challenges
that I see in almost all places people wondering how can we use
to be the best stewards of this building go forward.
It seems like it's a dynamic conversation that needs to
happen frequently. I can only imagine some of the
(06:57):
conversations that you have withchurches or individuals, leaders
in the church who call you and maybe dealing with a particular
issue in the church. And then of course, you shepherd
us a pastor types. I was wanting to ask you, what
are some things that you would like churches to know about
pastors and ministers and the work that we do and maybe some
(07:19):
of the the challenges that we face, but we don't often talk
about this. Yeah, yeah.
So I think first and foremost, it almost sounds ridiculous to
say, but your pastor is human with all that that comes with
the fact that they have a advanced degree, master's level
degree does not make them any kind of super hired holy men and
(07:40):
women. And it kind of part and parcel
with that is that they have emotions, have feelings that
they're managing and trying to process.
And they need support, emotionalsupport and encouragement and
challenge, but definitely articulated emotional support
and encouragement from from timeto time.
You know, you don't need to understand them, but they do
(08:01):
need to know that you are, you're with them and affirm what
it is that that they're offeringboth within the church and, and
in the community. And, and that kind of leads me
to the second thing is when you see a pastor reaching out to a
community and it looks almost like they're neglecting their
church. They're just being missional,
which is, is the, the reason forthe existence of the church.
(08:21):
You know, the church exists for a purpose.
The question has been asked, areyou a church with a mission or
mission with the church? And that's not it's not coming
to me. There's a better way to ask
that. But but the the idea is that,
you know, essentially that the church exists for God's mission
in the world. And, you know, being outside the
(08:43):
walls takes the embodied leadership of the the pastor to
set an example for that kind of thing.
Well, you've been doing this fora while, and when I say doing
this, I mean coordinator of the state, the volunteer state.
When you think about the things that you do, what are some
things that you would say I really like about this?
What are some things that you say this is kind of fun, if I
(09:04):
may use that word, that you enjoy?
What are some things that you you do in this role that you
say? I really like doing this.
I would say absolutely love justthe ability to be in
relationship and to visit with pastors and staff.
But this might be surprising laypeople.
I love to connect with lay leaders in each congregation and
(09:25):
I have as my goal and have had as my goal almost since the time
that I landed in Tennessee, to know to be able to identify
facial recognition when I walk into any of those churches, at
least three key lay leaders and to understand something about
their ministry. Because as I said earlier,
pastors come and go and oftentimes the relationship that
(09:46):
we have with the church really depends on the relationship that
we have with Kilay leaders afterthe pastor leaves.
There have been many examples, most of which I probably can't,
can't reference, where it has really made a huge difference
for me to be able to e-mail likea Kilay leader or I had a
Facebook friendship with them and was able to easily reach out
(10:09):
to them because we had a memorable conversation.
And, or oftentimes the, you know, the pastor will leave and,
and they will proactively reach out to me when he or she
announces their, their resignation in a request for
guidance and presence and resources.
So I, I really enjoy that kind of networking and kind of see my
(10:31):
ministry as a ministry of introduction, which is a term
that's borrowed from Doctor Dan Bagby, who was my pastoral care
professor at BTSR. He talked about ministry as, as
a sort of ministry of, of introduction in the role that
that plays, introducing people to, to like leaders who can then
share their, their knowledge base and their experience.
(10:52):
So for instance, I try to note especially who who in the church
has been a chair of deacons and I've had this long dream of
creating a community of Deacon chairs for Tennessee CBF where
they could, you know, share their experience.
I don't find that people want tocommit to a covenant way to a
group like that. So it kind of keeps it loose.
(11:14):
But I am able to say if I recognize if I have a
conversation with a Deacon chairor a key lay leader in a
specific congregation and I knowthat somebody else has gone
through the same thing or a pastor research or something
like that. I'm able to connect those those
two to one another and have often being able to do that.
Ministry of Introduction has been a huge support for.
(11:36):
Them I meant to ask you when we got started, but how many
churches would relate to or be connected with Tennessee CBF?
Yeah. So there are 30 churches that I
like to say have some degree of relationship to Tennessee CBF.
And that recognizes that there exists a spectrum, relational
(11:58):
spectrum that kind of qualifies the degree of relationship that
churches have. And that that spectrum exists in
my mind. So it often comes up in my mind
when somebody says, is that a CBF church?
And I'm like, well, what do you mean exactly by that?
But so, and I track those relationships constantly and
(12:20):
where they are. And I try to grow that
relationship along the the spectrum as well and to focus
kind of toward missional engagement with with
congregations and getting them into fellowship with one
another. That whole ministry of
introduction thing strengthens their relationship to Tennessee
CBF. So there are 30 churches across
the state, and it's an interesting contract because I'm
(12:41):
a N Carolinian originally and over there there are hundreds.
And there's a sociological and ahistorical reason for that.
But that's another call I. Wanted to ask you, I've been,
I've lived here for about 6 years.
I'm not in kind of a transplant like you're talking about.
And I've heard about the quote UN quote the three states of of
(13:04):
Tennessee. Do you find our churches have
different personalities based upon maybe the region?
You mentioned the sociological, but is that reflected in the
personalities and you have that unique perspective?
Yeah, I would say there, you know, according to the
Constitution of Tennessee, thereare three grand divisions and
some people joke about them as being three different states.
(13:24):
And kind of to that point, thereis a state courthouse in each of
the divisions, unlike most states that just have one in
their capital. I did not know that.
Yeah, it's rather fascinating. And the fact that it's actually
in the Constitution that they'redifferent divisions is, is
fascinating to me. But it totally makes sense
because as I travel across the state, which is a fur piece, a
(13:47):
long drive, I do notice that that they are essentially 3
different cultures, subcultures,you would say.
And sometimes it's, it's highly nuanced and sometimes, you know,
even within a certain division seem to churches can be so
different. And I can usually generally
connect them to a particular Baptist tradition, like the
(14:08):
Charleston tradition or the Sandy Creek tradition and the
Texas tradition or the Georgia tradition, those kinds of
things. But yeah, it's, it's a very
diverse state. And I basically sometimes have
to remind myself where I am because I'll see it done very
differently, very differently, very uniquely.
And I'm like, OK, I can, I can locate this on kind of a
(14:31):
different spectrum. Yeah, some churches are really
high church and some churches are super low church, and
there's everything in between. That's so interesting to hear
you talk about that because whatyou're saying is on one Sunday
you could be in a really formal environment and then the
following Sunday you could be something very casual and you
kind of have to be all things toall people in a way.
Yes, yes. So I have a robe and I have
(14:53):
stoles, but it's on a rare occasion that I use those.
But we have churches that do that kind of culture thing and
and then we have churches that would just like if, if, if they
realized other churches did that, they'd be scratching their
heads. I was going to ask you.
Points to the the beauty of the Baptist vision.
OK. Along with that, and not too
(15:15):
long ago, the Southern Baptist Convention met and of course,
they vote on different things. And do you still find yourself
responding to or relating to some of the decisions or actions
of the SBC as it relates to CBF life?
Do you get inquiries about what the SBC is doing, or is it still
important more or less to be aware of what they're doing?
(15:36):
I think it is still important tobe aware of what they're doing,
but it does not. Having grown up Southern
Baptists, it kind of intrigues me.
I've increasingly, as the years go by, I'm just like, you know,
that, that that's to be expected.
It's, it's not, you know, it's, it's not my circus kind of deal.
If you will, that's a good way of putting it.
(15:58):
That's an interesting term. Yeah, so I've got my own monkey
set, but it's interesting. I do have a lot of connections
within Tennessee, CBF across thestate, and a lot of different
churches. Some folks do follow that a lot
more closely for some reason it,it still concerns them, but I
just don't think that it deserves the the mental energy
(16:19):
that I think that would require.But interestingly, I visited the
Cumberland Presbyterians a couple days ago.
Their General Assembly is happening right now at the
airport in Knoxville, and they are.
They originated in West Tennessee and 1810.
And I've been so fascinated by by their presence In reality,
every time I see one of their churches, questions start
(16:40):
popping in my mind. And I've tried to make inroads
with them toward a partnership of some sort because what I've
discovered is they're so much like us.
So when I thought I had this opportunity to go to the airport
and visit their General Assembly, I did.
I hung out at the resource fair for about two hours and had
great conversations. And to your question, to a
person, when they asked me who Iwas and who I was with, they
(17:05):
kind of, you know, it surprised them just generally when they
said bad, when I said Baptist, it's like that.
I can clearly see that they wereworking off of this stereotype
that all Baptists were just Baptists, that it was kind of
monolithic. And so I had to say to your
question, we're not that kind ofBaptist.
Because I was going to ask you about the, the, the name, the
(17:27):
label of Baptist. Do you find that there's still
generally a desire on churches to keep the name Baptist in
their name? Or can have you noticed maybe a
shift to churches saying we're Baptist, but we don't
necessarily want to put it in our title because of
misconceptions? Yes.
To both of those, I think that the people who are kind of
(17:48):
stalwart about it, you know, aresuper devoted to Baptist
principles, historic Baptist principles and really want to
make those known. I don't think they could imagine
it not being on their side. And I totally get that.
I share that passion for that. At the same time, I know that
the majority of the population coming and going either has no
(18:10):
knowledge whatsoever or has a terrible stereotype in their
mind about what that means. And so I, yeah, I mean, I
wouldn't want to be the layperson who wakes up one day
to discover that their church isactually Baptist.
I wouldn't want to be that person kind of in the little B
Baptist tradition where you don't put it on the sign, but
you're organizing documents, sayso.
(18:30):
But I'm totally empathetic toward, sympathetic to churches
who decide that to reach a broader group of prospects that
they're not going to put it on their sign.
I think you can make a really super strong case for doing
that. Fortunately, that position two
allows you to be in relationshipto Tennessee CBF or the CBF in
(18:51):
general. And you know, we've got a couple
churches that don't have Baptistin their name, but like the
church that I attended, Maryville Ecclesia on our sign
out fronts, just beneath the word ecclesia in kind of small
words, it says a CBF community. You've been doing this almost 10
years now as far as working in our state.
What do you know now that you didn't know then about some of
(19:14):
the ministry that you do in our state?
Yeah, I would say, well, it's, it's strange to say this.
We can always edit this out afterwards Rick if we need to.
Yeah, it's strange to say or to hear me say it, but I think that
this ministry is more important than I realized.
And, and I hear that and I have felt that trying to explain it
(19:37):
to people was initially difficult, but I think has
become much, much easier, especially along the line of,
you know, supporting churches and pastors in particular is
where I spend most of my work, but also with lay leaders.
So I think I've discovered it's even more important than I
thought. I've certainly discovered that
that you got to be nimble in terms of remembering where you
(19:59):
are and what church you're talking to and that you've got
to essentially treat each one individually like an individual
relationship. I mean, I think I knew.
I think I knew that deep down from my previous work with CBF
Global for nine years because I traveled to a lot of different
churches around the country. But within such a small area,
(20:21):
Well, Tennessee is pretty large,but within kind of 1.
Statehood unit, I didn't expect there to be as much diversity as
as there is. And then I think I just
discovered more about people andI mean things that I knew, but
just reaffirmed for me that it'struly a miracle that a lot of
people are sitting upright and that I just, you know, need to
(20:46):
chill out and be with them and listen to them and be OK and
trust God with with that. That time spent with them and in
the name of Jesus is not going to come back void.
Well, we're getting close to theGeneral Assembly as we're
recording this, and there's somebody that's going to be
there I'm hoping to meet. His name is Ryan Burge, and I
(21:07):
see you nodding, kind of. He was a pastor of a church in
Illinois and he's kind of known as the Numbers and Graphs guy,
so to speak. And he's kind of tracking some
of the numbers as it relates to the denominations.
Let me kind of lead you on a step back away from Baptists
particular, but the church in general.
How do you, what's your kind of your perspective on the future
of the church? And following that up, do you
(21:29):
find that there's a generationaldifference in how people view
the church? Yeah, it seems to me like it's
going to be different, and there's conflict within me about
that because I love traditional church and I love supporting
traditional church. But I realize increasingly that
fewer people are asking me to support traditional church.
Got it. And and I see that the
(21:53):
generational distinction, I can even say that as as a recent as
my generation, it seems like there is a care for and maybe
even an emphasis on programming,maybe even traditional
programming. But kind of I've always thought
of myself as kind of older than my generation.
So I may that may be a little skewed, but one thing's for
sure, the younger generation seems to be much more focused on
(22:17):
relationships at all costs. And so I think that necessitates
a church that is simpler and more nimble and more casual, all
those kinds of things. And, and to be honest with you
that I kind of, I'm hopeful, butI'm grieving.
It's a weird kind of place to be.
And that's an interesting way toput it.
Yeah, yeah. It's like there's a particular
(22:39):
kind of way that I love to worship and grew up worshiping
that way. And, and then at my very own
church, things are super simple.I mean, there's a song set and
there's a sermon and there's a benediction.
The mission statement of the church is to love.
Well, I mean that's pretty simple. 2 words and and so.
We're still working on that part.
(23:02):
Yes, it's aspirational for sure.Exactly.
More visionary than missionary, probably.
Yeah, yeah. For folks outside the
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, what are some perceptions that
are real or imagined that maybe you've had to deal with?
And I guess secondarily, why would someone want to be a part
of CBF? And I guess if more personally,
(23:22):
why are you part of CBF? Yeah, so I'm part of CBF because
when I was a religion major at Campbell University in the early
90s, I became interested finally, as the SBC was
fracturing. Initially, I became very
interested in what it meant to be a Baptist and I I discovered
that it did not mean adopting A doctrinal statement, but rather
(23:44):
being on a spiritual journey that included and was formed by
and informed by dialogue with other people who've been on the
journey. So a balance of freedom and
responsibility in community thatwould hopefully help me become
more like Christ. And so that is very different in
my mind than some other churchesand traditions, which means kind
(24:04):
of like our forebear, Roger Williams, you know, that you
kind of come and you go and there's there's room for people
to to do that and there's room for people to explore.
But the dialogue is, is really important.
And I would say that for me, that is the CBF community.
I have seen people enter that community and I've seen people
(24:26):
depart the community. But there are Speaking of a
spectrum that there are people all along that spectrum within
the CBF community. It is truly a big tent where
people are working out their salvation, I think with the
benefit and the aid of communitywith with others.
And that's OK. That's totally OK.
(24:46):
In my mind, that is the Baptist vision.
We do this together. We do it with a balance of
freedom and responsibility. And when we're in dialogue,
there is no, there's no conforming thing that says you
have to be like this or worship like this or dress like this.
So when we go to assembly, we see a little bit of everything.
(25:09):
And I was intrigued by my youngest son was working age
level assemblies, which is childcare and activities at General
Assembly last year and they needed some extra help.
So he recruited one of his friends who didn't really have
the best relationship to church and he is a little, he's
different. So he spent a week helping with
age level assembly at at GeneralAssembly.
(25:33):
And he came back and he told my son that he'd never experienced
a church group like that, religious group like that, that
he literally felt welcomed and that the way he dressed did not,
you know, 'cause attention or concern, what have you.
It was really heartwarming for for me to hear that.
(25:56):
So I'm a part of CBF #1 because I think it is centered in the
mission of God in the world. And then it takes all kinds to
work on that, that mission, believing that God's mission to
reconcile and renew all things according to Revelation includes
us and, and, and we're invited into partnership.
(26:17):
And that is pretty much the nature of CBF is partnership.
And, you know, we're just all bunch of misfits.
The island of misfit toys. Making T-shirts.
Yeah, exactly. And, and we're, we're trying to
do this thing together and inviting other people,
(26:38):
especially those who've been marginalized and outcast who
don't fit the bill or the doctrinal statement to, to come
walk with us. I'm going to try to get you out
on here on this note, of course,we've been talking about or
you've been talking about the identity portion of being part
of the fellowship, but are thereanything as far as our own state
CBF, any events or initiatives that are coming up that you'd
(27:01):
like to speak to? Yeah, so I definitely want to
plug my new associate, Dave Mcneely, who is also my pastor.
He's part time pastor at our church, which is only about 11
years old. But Dave is leading our new
initiative called Connect Church, which is an opportunity
to have a meaningful connection with rural churches, which we
don't have a whole lot of. But to help those rural churches
(27:23):
with an assets based community development approach to
reconnect or refresh their connection to their community
and assess their assets and see what kind of ministries they can
dream of together. The best thing about that is
that at the end of that process,they're they're going to get a
$5000 grant to kind of seed thatopportunity.
And so I'm really super excited about what that means and even
(27:46):
more excited that it doesn't have to be a Baptist Church.
Dave's got a Quaker church in the current cohort he's got.
We've been talking about the Cumberland Presbyterians as
potential recipients of that as well.
But it's consistent with our mission to resource Christians
and churches as they discover and fulfill their God-given
mission. We don't qualify Baptist
churches, so our ministry existsfor all churches and Christians.
(28:09):
So that I would say then also we've got General Assembly in
the fall, October three and fourat General First Baptist Church
Chattanooga, which they are stoked about.
We're excited about. We have so many breakout
opportunities, but. This is a three state deal.
Yeah, yeah. First time ever that three
states or probably even the two states have come together to do
(28:31):
a General Assembly and it just works so well and I'm super
excited about that. And then the last thing I'd say
is I've also been this week doing some work on Winter Youth
Summit, which is our every otheryear youth conference that is
held at First Baptist Huntsville, AL.
So and it draws students from several different States and
(28:54):
this year it's always actually the weekend of Martin Luther
King Junior weekend, but that's coming together and super
excited about that. And some churches will be
attending for the first time. I think Kings Cross Church and
Tullahoma will be attending for the first time.
Just excited about, you know, what God's going to do in the
lives of young people. I wish we could do that every
(29:15):
year. Well, I've tried to cover a few
topics, Rick, and we could just keep going back and forth, but
is there anything else you want to touch on before I let you go
as it relates to maybe life or ministry or CBF work in
particular? I would just come back around to
the truth. I don't think we can say this
enough to to the people who sit in the Pew and probably even to
(29:36):
our staff every once in a while.Is the God called calls us into
mission. God's mission to reconcile and
renew all things includes you. So you know you're not just
living a mundane life. God desires very much for you to
be a partner in this renewal andreconciliation question is how
are you going to do that? And so we exist to help churches
discover that and fulfill that. And I would hope that amidst all
(29:59):
of the things, I often think that pastors end up operating
like CEO's rather than pastors because there's so many things
that they're juggling, which is another thing I'd want people to
know about their pastor. Your pastor's probably got too
much on his or her plate. But in the midst of all that, I
think it's really easy to do, toforget the mission, to
experience mission drift. And I'm not necessarily talking
(30:20):
about your church's state admission, but the grand mission
that churches exist for, the mission of God in the world.
That's a good place to stop on where, Rick, I'm so grateful for
your time today. And we have been listening to
Doctor Rick Bennett, the Coordinator of CBF Tennessee.
And as always, thanks for listening.
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