May 27, 2025 • 30 mins
Life as a preacher's kid has its own special set of challenges, stressors, and blessings. Kelly Dean Johnson talks about her parents and what it was like growing up in a church and town as a "PK." She shares some of the joys as well as difficulties of that experience, and some life lessons she learned along the way. Kelly is Director of Clinton City Schools in the historic town of Clinton, TN, where her dad served as Pastor of Clinton's First Baptist Church for 20 years.
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(00:00):
Thanks for stopping in everybody.
Very excited about our guest andI'll introduce her in a moment.
But I wanted to refer to an article which is really about
the topic today. It was for my good friend Doyle
Sager. It was a pastor in Missouri and
he incidentally was a dad of children, which makes his kids
preachers kids. This is what he said.
I want to begin with this, he writes.
(00:20):
Let me say at the outset that mythree children are all very
happy, well adjusted adults. And allow me also to say that
our kids had a wonderful experience growing up in a
pastors home for the most part, but unless you have lived in a
pastor's home, you have no idea the pressures and expectations
thrust upon the children of clergy.
And as a Segway, I'm very excited to have Kelly Johnson
(00:41):
with us today. Now the next few minutes I'm
going to emphasize the Dean partKelly Dean Johnson, who is the
director of the Clinton City Schools, which is just wrapping
up. And you've just come back from
lunch today. How you feeling about the school
year? Well, you're feeling good.
It's hard to believe that it's over, actually.
But we did 6th grade graduation today, so we graduated 105 sixth
grade students, and so it's beena great day.
(01:03):
I have a wife at home, is very excited about the finishing of
the school year, too. Now I feel like I have a little
bit of a connection with you because Laurie and I, we've just
celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary.
We met a seminary, We have been in the ministry pretty much our
lives which is 30 plus years. We have 3 kids who have grown up
listening to me preach and watching me do different things
(01:26):
until they got tired of that andgrew up and left the house.
But you were a preacher's kid. And I said once a pre-K, always.
Always. Preachers.
Kid, always. All right, so I was going to
start off with this because I'veheard a lot about your dad.
We're going to talk about Sam, but also Marie.
Your dad was here 20 years at First Baptist, which I think is
amazing. He was one of my predecessors.
(01:48):
So I want to ask what he and I get along.
You and him and gotten along fabulously.
Actually, when I look at all thepastors that have been at First
Baptist since he has left. In fact, I've told my husband
that that I think you and him probably would have been the
closest of friends. Well, what our personalities
kind of jive did you think? Very much so.
And in fact, it's funny, when you first came and I talked to
(02:10):
several of the First Baptist members, that was what they
would say. He's the closest thing that
we've gotten to your dad. He's he and your dad are a lot
alike. Well, that's right after I got
here. There are a lot of people who
said that to me and I regrettably, I didn't get a
chance to know him in person, but I was curious about that
because I hear his name a lot still and we remember his
ministry to this day. So I wanted to ask your parents
(02:33):
were in Ministry 50 years or so.I think they served in several
places, but they spent 20 years here in Clinton.
Is that is that right? They did so similarly like you,
they met at seminary. My Mama was going to seminary.
She actually dropped out of seminary and started teaching to
help dad get through seminary and she was actually engaged to
(02:53):
someone else to get married and met dad.
In a funny story, she said that she went to the library to study
and he was working in the library and she thought that he
had pretty legs. That was like the start of over
50 year marriage, but they were engaged 6 weeks later and so
then they went to Johnson City at Central Baptist in Johnson
City and then First Baptist in Jonesboro, Tennessee.
(03:15):
And then when I was six years old, he got called to Clinton.
OK, so you were six when you moved here?
Yeah, so I was born when he was pastor at First Baptist in
Jonesboro. OK, so we're sitting here in the
library of the church, in the sanctuary, just right across the
hall, and you've been here before, obviously.
I want to ask, what's it like being here in the place where
your dad was pastor for so long?This is just home.
(03:36):
A lot of people ask because, youknow, he was actually his
funeral was held here. You know, how do you feel, you
know, walking back in, you know,knowing that that is where his
funeral was held. It you can be gone for so long
and you walk back in and it justit's like home.
I mean, this, this place has my heart and my soul and it will
always just be a special place. Well.
What was it like? I mean, you grew up here,
(03:58):
obviously, and you are working here.
You live in Knoxville now, but essentially a lot of the people
have literally watched you grow up and they still see you now.
What's that like to interact with people who've watched you
grow up? So it's kind of crazy, I'll tell
you that. When I graduated high school,
went to Carson Newman and of course became a teacher, we were
(04:20):
trying to find my first teachingjob.
And my dad actually encouraged me, don't come back to Clinton.
You need to go and make your ownand you need to establish an
identity outside of yourself being a preacher's kid in
Clinton. And I want you to, you know, see
what's out there. So I went to Knox County and
taught for 18 years. And then as their health started
to decline, they were needing a lot more support.
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And that's what initially led meback to Clinton.
And of course, it was just like walking back home.
You know, you walk through the elementary school of where you
went to school, of course the cafeteria looks a lot smaller
and the classrooms look a lot smaller.
But but being able to come back home and then spend that time
with them and I mean it just this is my home and this is my
(05:03):
heart. This is all I ever really
remember And so. Were eight when you came here 6.
You were six. I was in the 1st grade.
I started to Clinton Elementary School in the 1st grade and my
brother was in the third grade. Well, I was thinking about my
own kids because we've moved here six years ago and we lived
in Missouri for 12. And one of the things that, you
know, as their dad and as the pastor coming into a new place,
(05:23):
you're thinking about trying to meet all the new people.
And, and one of my kids mentioned to me one time when we
arrived that they were surprisedthat so many people already knew
who they were. And I had not explained to them
that it was kind of a big deal to be moving into this new town
and a new church and to explain that there was a picture of us
that had been circulated in the church and people knew them.
(05:45):
And I guess I'm asking, can you relate to that a little bit of
that like awkwardness about in the nod to George Wynch, who
just died a few days ago, the norm on Cheers, Yes.
What's it like where everybody knows your name and you may not
know their name right away? Well, I learned to say sweetie
and honey to a lot of people works today.
Still, that still works today, But there is no doubt that, you
(06:07):
know, you live in a glass bubblejust because the First Baptist
is the center of the community. And obviously Dad was a big part
of not only this, but he was a big part of the chamber.
And he was on the Carson Emman board.
And, you know, he'd like to savea 10 club, so he'd like to be
involved in the community. So obviously the church knew who
we were, but, you know, the larger scale of the community
knew who we were as well. And, you know, that was a time
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when, you know, children rode their bikes, you know,
everywhere. So I would hop on my bike and go
to JC Park and swim all day longand mom would have no idea where
I was. And we were fine with that back
in the day. And so, you know, certainly
everyone knew who you were. I do remember as a kid thinking
that I was the luckiest person ever because I was guaranteed to
go to heaven because my daddy was a pastor.
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That's in the fine print, right?Fine print somewhere I'm.
Sure, what the preachers kids have to go through.
And again, the average pastoratenowadays is like 3 years.
And like I say, I've been here six.
And then to think about your dadbeing here, here 20 years,
what's it like? I mean, you work here now.
You have some of the same relationships with the people
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that you knew when you were younger.
And they do they still remember you when you were this high.
I'm putting my arm out there. And did it ever feel like you
were living in a glass house or in a bubble when you were small?
And again, just to be here now. Yeah, well, my mom and dad
always. And if people who people who
know my dad know this is that hewas a human 1st and then he was
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a pastor. And I think a lot of people put
this expectation or this perception of pastors that
they're somehow superhuman. And so, you know, I watched my
dad struggle. I watched how hard his job was
growing up. But he also went into the
ministry knowing the pressures of that was going to put on my
brother and me. And he was very, very cognizant
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sometimes almost to a fault, to not ever make us feel the
pressures of being a preacher's kid and letting us grow up up
and make mistakes. And we did make mistakes.
And there were times that he wasdisappointed in us, but he knew
he wanted us to feel what it waslike to grow up as normal as can
be. I can't say that that, you know,
always worked out because obviously we were in the glass
(08:15):
bubble. But I will tell you from a
parental perspective, he always was very cognizant to not make
me feel the pressure of being a preacher's kid.
That's what I would would think about because with my own kids
and you're going up in that dynamic, being in the home of a
pastor, did you ever sense therewas any additional pressure on
you like that you put on yourself or that other people
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put on you because you're a quote UN quote preacher's kid
and you're supposed to set the example?
You do, you do, I mean, like the, the special days, Mother's
Day and Father's Day, it was very, you know, you had to look
a certain way and we had to haveour corsage on.
And my family still jokes with me to this day that I have post
traumatic stress about Easter Sunday because that was just,
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you know, you had to look a certain way and look a certain
way. It's a Super Bowl of.
And so my family will tell you now that I like to camp and I
boycott the dresses because so much pressure was on finding the
right dress and the right corsage and your hair had to
look a certain way. Yeah.
Well, let me ask you this because I'm trying to be mindful
(09:16):
of this too. And more so when my kids were
small and they're still in the house.
It sounds like Sam and I guess Marie too, because they were
both in it together. They tried not to bring weather
difficulties or challenges into the home.
And from your just reflecting onthat, do you think that that
worked out well or could you tell kind of since when things
(09:37):
were? You could sense it for sure.
I remember coming home from school and Dad would always make
it a point to drop everything that he was doing and spend time
with us, whether it was, you know, playing basketball or
outside or hitting tennis ball, you know, against the side of
the pastorium. Because remember, back in the
day, we lived in the church's house.
That's right. We lived in a pastorium.
(09:58):
So that was a little bit of pressure on its own just because
that wasn't our house. So we had to be careful with
what we did with it. And of course, Mom and Dad
wanted us to be very respectful because it wasn't our home, but
he always, you know, carved out time.
But I will tell you, when I first met my husband and I went
to his house and I saw that theyhad family dinner together and I
(10:19):
was like, you all sit at a tableand eat dinner every night
together. And that was like a foreign
concept to me because while he could carve out an initial time
for me, then he was gone. He was gone to the church or he
was gone to some sick person's house or someone had passed away
or he had a funeral. And so I have very few memories
of my family other than at Christmas or Thanksgiving or a
(10:40):
special occasion where we were able to sit down together as a
family. Now we would go out to eat after
church together as a family at arestaurant, but that wasn't a
part of our nightly routine because that was, I mean, the
church was the priority. So for you to go see that and
say, well, this is how other people do it and then you
realize that's not how you're doing at your house.
(11:02):
I guess I was thinking, as you look back, can you think of some
experiences that stick out of your mind, maybe some positives
or some maybe some difficulties or negative ones through the
years? You know, I will tell you that
my dad is one of the most amazing people that you will
ever meet and he was always my person.
But he, you never knew the bubbles that were going on in
the church. He was very, I mean, if you told
(11:23):
him something, it went to the grave with him.
And if you told him to keep it asecret, he was going to keep it
a secret. Anybody that he counseled, we
never know that we never knew the insurance and outs and the
bad things about the churches. But we saw the stress and how it
played out and just how when he came home, he needed, he would
have that time with us, but thenhe would need alone time.
(11:44):
And like when we went on vacations, it would be my mom
and Chris and I were out at the beach having fun.
Dad would be sitting on the balcony because he needed quiet.
He needed quiet. He needed that personal in a
reflection time just because as a pastor, you're tugged in 150
different directions with 150 different opinions.
And you say something from the pulpit that's interpreted 150
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different ways that people have opinions about.
So when he could find peace, he needed to be by himself.
He was a he was a very reflective thinker.
He was very intelligent, loved to read books.
And so while we got time with him, the church got the majority
of the time of him. He used the phrase preacher's
kid. You know, we joke about, you
know, keeping the deacons kids away from the preacher's kids.
(12:28):
But to be called a preacher's kid by other people.
Do you ever was there a time that you kind of realized how I
am a preacher's kid and recognize that maybe your
upbringing was a little bit different from some of the other
people in the community? It took a while for me to figure
that out because I just knew what I knew.
And so I thought everybody else was being raised in the way that
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I was being raised. And that was just, that was the
only normal. That's all that I knew.
And, you know, I surrounded myself with First Baptist
people. And so those were my best
friends. And that's who, you know, we
would after school come over here and hang out.
And of course we had choir and we did hand bells back in the
day and all of that stuff. And so I did not really realize
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until, frankly, because I went to Carl Stephen College, I did
not realize until I got out intothe working world.
Wow. You know, I was raised kind of
different than a lot of people. The pressure was never there,
but it just mean definitely faith was a big part of, you
know, faith was a big part of our upbringing.
Well. Actually you're in a leadership
role now and have been for several years.
(13:35):
And I was trying to put the pieces together in terms of the
kind of the trajectory of the different 10 years of the pastor
It's and I was, I was thinking that Sam had a big part of
elevating the importance of women serving in this church.
Am I right about that? He did.
He had very, very strong feelings, which was uncommon at
that time. And that's what I'm saying.
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It was very uncommon at the time, but he had very, very
strong feelings. And that's part of the the
person I am today is that he from a very young age, taught me
that I could accomplish anythingas a woman that I wanted to
accomplish. And in fact, when I would try to
sell myself short, he would callme, he would call me down for
that. And I mean, his expectations
were extremely high for both Chris and me.
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But, you know, he was the first minister in this area to ordain
a female into the ministry, which was Cindy Egner.
And, you know, I think he was kind of shocked that he didn't
get like kicked out of the community for that.
But he also was the type of person, and if he believes that,
he's gonna stand up for it. Yeah.
And I mean, for me being here, I've benefited from the
positions and the decisions thatSam made and also way back in
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the day with Paul Turner, you know, the history of the church
there. So we kind of stand on their
shoulders. But from your vantage point, and
I was curious your perspective because I have two daughters and
there's some things that they they hear from me, but there are
also some things that they maybeobserve.
And I would like to think that they are affirmed as as women in
ministry or leaders in the community.
And I'm hearing that you got that in the home and also
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through the church with your dad.
He was very adamant that just because I was, because I was a
girl, he felt almost that I was more empowered to do greater
things. And so that was that was deeply
instilled. He was more of the intellectual
leader of the family. Mom took a little bit more of a
passive role. I think she, in hindsight,
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really, really struggled being aminister's wife.
And I think the pressures were extremely difficult on her and I
think she had a hard time being comfortable in her skin, which
played out further, you know, inher life and some mental health
issues. We've been talking about Sam, of
course, because it being the pastor, but I was thinking about
Marie. That's a lot of stress her as
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the quote UN quote pastor's wifeand seeing them work together.
As you think about your mom and and how they work together, did
you they seem to work well together.
They seem to try to handle pressure well together.
What are some personality traitsthat maybe, as you think about
being a child in that home, thatmaybe they passed along to you?
I would like to say that I'm as intelligent as my daddy is, but
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that would not be true. He's one of the smartest people
I've ever met. I think I'm, but you know, I
think Chris and I are a combination of both of them.
Actually, I think the older thatI get, the more feisty I get.
Like my Mama, my Mama was very feisty.
And if you're listening and you know her, you know that that is,
that is true. But you know, I have the love of
learning and I'll, you know, I have the work ethic and I have
(16:32):
the drive. I think I have the reflection
piece that that Daddy instilled in US.
Well, this one, the next thing Iwant to talk, talk about, it's
kind of personal because again, I have 3 kids that are kind of
in college or beyond. And some of the reading that
I've done, and maybe you're aware of this too, Children who
grow up in a pastor's home, they, they don't always stay in
the church and there are reasonsfor that.
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But I can't up thinking that maybe one of them has to do with
what, how they see their parentstreated while they're in that
line of work. And I guess I'm asking, is that
a sentiment that you can relate to and and talk about you,
you're still involved in the church?
Yeah, 100%. And you know, Daddy had his
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struggles. We didn't hear a lot about
specifically what they were, butthere are a lot of pressures for
a preacher and a preacher's wife.
So, you know, church is human too.
And I think sometimes, especially a lot of non
Christians think that churches are hypocritical.
It's not that we're hypocritical, it's that we're
human. And so I think that you see the
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ugly of the church enough where you see the human flaws that it
makes it difficult to want to continue to participate in that
at times just because you see the ugly.
And you see how people with a good heart who have convictions
that they feel like is from God.But Christians don't always
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treat Christians in a kind of manner.
And, you know, there were some difficult church members.
They're just worried they gave Daddy a hard time.
There was difficult staff members that gave Daddy a hard
time. And while I never knew the
specifics of it, I knew enough and was intuitive enough to know
that he was on the struggle bus with it.
And I think, you know, he was still in his prime when he
retired. He actually retired at a very
young age. But I think he felt that stress
(18:19):
weighing on him. And he knew, he said to be at a
church this long is almost unheard of.
And I've had a really, really good run.
And I would rather leave while people still appreciate what I'm
having to say versus my time is up.
And you know, I leave a little too late.
What's encouraging to me to knowthat you are involved in in your
church in Knoxville? Because again, for my own
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children as they get older, they've been primarily obviously
under my influence and lorries and try to give them a good
background. But when you work in the church
and you're on a staff, especially as pastor and you are
in the home as a child, and you're kind of helpless to do
anything about it. It's understandable that you
might want to project that onto other churches and say I don't
(19:00):
want anything to do that. But I'm looking at you and
hearing you say that it is possible to find connection.
It is possible. I will say it's been a journey
for me. It hasn't always been always
been that way. I struggled greatly finding a
place to settle, you know, after, you know, getting married
and leaving here. Had lots of conversations with
dad. And for those of you who know
(19:23):
him, you know, he had a wonderful sense of humor and
truly was just, he was a human. And if you got him away from the
church and at a, you know, a friend gathering, or I mean, he
was, you would never know. He's a pastor.
He's just a normal person. You know, humor to me, I just
think you have to laugh at certain things.
And it just sounds like to have to be able to laugh and to
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engage in humor. I just think that's like life
giving in a way to process things is to be able to laugh.
Makes you relatable I mean I will tell you the difference
that I've seen in the struggle that that I have had recently is
just the division and that was always and he raised us to
believe I mean I'll never forgetthat we had to do a debate in
(20:08):
high school and of all things I got chosen the.
Abortion and I came home and he said what side are you going to
pick? And I said well I'm going to
pick the anti abortion. He said no, you're not.
He said I want you to pick the pro side.
And I said really? And he said yes.
He said you've got to learn to see the other side of people's
opinions so that you can learn where your opinion is going to
be. And he forced me to take that
(20:30):
side and he actually helped me win the debate on that side.
Not that he believed with it, but he was a firm believer that
you need to see both sides of every situation and that we need
to be tolerant of each other. And so my dad went to his grave.
I never knew if he was a Democrat or Republican.
I never knew one single president that he voted for.
He told me it was none of my business.
He says none of your business. It's none of my friend's
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business. It's none of the church's
business. That's that's a private thing.
He said because that doesn't impact my relationship with
people. People can believe different
than I can believe. And I can still be very good
friends with them. And so he really instilled that
level of tolerance that we can all be believers, but that
doesn't mean that we we all believe the exact same way or
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interpret something. And that never threatened him.
And he encouraged his congregation and encouraged us
to read it and interpret it the way because he said the truth is
when we get to heaven, all of usare going to have gotten it a
lot wrong. So let's be humble about.
What a gift that was that you were raised that way because
that's not the way it is in every pastor's home now.
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Obviously you were, you grew up Baptist, you know, in a Baptist
Church going to talk about and ask you have there been any
principles or distinctives that maybe you were taught early on
that maybe have influenced you and how in your professional
life that stay with you? Yeah, I think the biggest thing
that they instilled in First Baptist, instilled in me is that
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it is a relationship based. I mean, it's a relationship with
God. It's not about how good you can
be. It's not about a set of rules
and regulations. It's about walking with Jesus.
And, you know, there's going to be ups and downs and mom and
dad, really they struggled at the end of their life with, you
know, severe pain and just lots of suffering that, you know, I
would just get extremely angry that, you know, they've lived
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their life for the Lord and they've lived this life of
faith. And why are we having to endure
this suffering for seven or eight years before we can go
reap our reward? You know, he just life is not
fair, Kelly. And he told me that from a very
young age, this this side of theworld is broken and it is not
fair. Don't ever expect it to to be
fair, because it's not going to be.
Well, that's a great segue into this one because because you
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know, Sam wrote a blog and or doyou have written A blog?
Yeah, I wrote the blog. Called the Baptist rabbi, picked
up this one, says lessons learned from a Baptist rabbi.
And I wanted to ask what are some lessons that you may have
have learned from your dad and your mom?
And if you don't remember any, you've written them here.
This was a couple years ago, butwhat are some lessons that maybe
(23:01):
have stayed with you? So that that was like a crazy
idea to do the blog, but I was really struggling when I first
moved to Clinton and began beingthere basically full time
caregiver while working in Clinton City Schools.
And you look back and that was such a blessing.
So how long have you been director?
I've been director. This is finishing up my 9th
year. I've been in Clinton City
Schools for 13. But, you know, I never, I would
(23:22):
have, if I would have stayed in Knox County, I never would have
gotten the opportunity. I wouldn't have spent the time
with him that I would have spentwith him if I wasn't their
caregiver. And that was such a precious
time because I was able to sit with him on the dock, you know,
and just for him to reflect about his life and his
experiences and his beliefs. And so one night I just couldn't
sleep because I was worried about him.
And so I just got up and startedwriting.
(23:44):
And that was just kind of, I tell people that that blog was
my therapy as that I watched them struggle.
I just took the time to reflect on the impact that that they
both have had on my life and shaping my life.
And the Baptist Rabbi came from one of his secretary's husbands
in Jonesboro, who was a good friend of his, but wasn't
really. He had very colorful language
(24:05):
and wasn't really into the church very much.
But daddy loved him and they were very, very good friends.
And so he tagged him and sort ofcalled him the Baptist Rabbi.
So that's where that name came from.
And it kind of stuck with him. I've got a few more minutes with
you and this, this is a good way, I think, to bring this to a
close. I started off by saying I wish I
had gotten here in time to get to know him and your mom.
(24:26):
But you've written about this onone of your blog entries now.
Sam died in May of 20/19. He was 77.
And then your mom died in Augustof 2019.
And I'm, I didn't do the math, but that's about 100 days, give
or take. And you bury both of your
parents. And in a sense, regardless of
age or suddenly I realize I'm anorphan in a way.
(24:48):
How did you navigate through that period of time and maybe
could talk about what sustained you?
Yeah, that was probably one of the hardest times of my life,
just because so much of my identity had become taking care
of them. And honestly speaking, we never
thought that we'd lose Daddy first.
I mean, we always in our head thought that we would lose Mama
first. It did not surprise me that it
went close together just becausethey did life together and we're
(25:11):
so supportive of each other and had that relationship that I
knew Mama would not do well longwithout him.
And she grieved herself. She grieved herself to death.
And we know that she often said in her room that she could feel
Dad's presence in there at night.
And that gave her peace. But that was her person in her
life. And she devoted her life to
daddy and to being a, you know, a minister's wife.
(25:31):
And so when the minister's wife was no longer there, she
struggled. But then when Daddy wasn't
there, she really struggled. But I think the thing that
sustained us was just. And I really, honestly, when
they passed away, I thought, I don't know that I can stay in
Clinton. I don't know that I can continue
to drive to Clinton every day, but there's such peace because
he's everywhere in Clinton. And, you know, I see them
everywhere in Clinton. You know, just we were setting
(25:53):
up for graduation yesterday and this couple comes up to me and
says, you probably don't remember us, but we joined First
Baptist Church when we moved here and your dad was our
pastor. And we remember him coming to
our house for the first time. And this is what he said, you
know, so I get the memories. Those are little gifts.
They're gifts, they're we call them kisses from heaven.
And so, you know, when you lose a loved 1, you do grieve, but
(26:16):
you're worth fear is that they're not going to be
remembered for their impact thatthey've had.
And so I get to drive to Clintonevery day and see the impact
that he that he had. And so, you know, I find joy and
just being able to come to the city that I love, the city that
raised me, the church that raised me into what I am.
And I had the honor of being thehands and feet of Jesus for 1000
(26:38):
kids. It just doesn't get any better.
Two more things, and this is what I'm curious about, what you
think about this. Why do you wish churches knew
about pastors and their families?
Wow. And preachers, kids.
Do I have 45 minutes? Do I have 45 minutes?
That could be another installment.
After I talk to the people who say how feisty you are, it's I
(26:59):
just think that's people in the Pew don't really understand.
You don't. It's a different dynamic, but
this is the old cliche What? What do you wish churches knew
you know? Knowing then what you know now,
You could pass along some insight.
That you are human. That you are.
That you are human and you, you are just relaying God's word to
people. But I think we all come to
(27:21):
church very egocentric and we come to church wanting to get
out of it what we want out of it, when really we should be
coming to church to see what we can give to it.
And so just as when I stand up in front of my staff and
students and say something, it is interpreted so many different
ways. You're in a glass bubble, Lori's
in a glass bubble, your kids arein a glass bubble.
So every move and everything that you say is being
(27:43):
scrutinized through the experiences and the perception,
you know, the individual that isperceiving it.
And then you have to answer for that in a wide variety of
different beliefs and personalities.
And it's constant. I mean, being a pastor is not a
nine to five job. It is a 24/7 job.
We never went on a vacation thatwe weren't called back for some
(28:04):
reason. And that was really not even
during the times of Internet andthat kind of accessible.
No, I would come home from the beach and Daddy says sorry guys,
we're leaving a day early. I've got to go to a funeral.
And so I don't think people, I think the general congregation,
unless you were actively involved, think that pastors
jobs is just show up and just deliver a sermon one day.
Wait, deliver a sermon. It it is that there's nothing
(28:26):
further than the truth. It is 24/7.
And if you're not on it, you're thinking about it, you're
reflecting about it, you're worrying about it, you're trying
to find your next, you know, niche for a sermon.
And so it is definitely, you know, a definitely a lifestyle
that takes a toll. I mean, I watched it take a toll
on my daddy and he was one of the best and he wouldn't have
traded it for the world. But do I?
(28:47):
I think that the stress of that played into him having
Parkinson's and a terrible case of the shingles, 100% I do.
Do I think he would have done anything differently?
He wouldn't have. But I think there just needs to
be more grace and mercy that is given to pastors and their
families. Like that and that's probably a
good place to stop on. And I just want to say Laurie
and I are glad to know you and to have you in our lives.
(29:10):
And I know this church who knowsyou and has known you through
the years. Appreciate your parents and we
remember their life and ministry.
And just before we go, any finalthoughts that maybe I didn't
touch on that you want to mention?
Now I just, I mean, I appreciatethe opportunity, you know, any
chance that I can talk about hisimpact on the community and me?
You know, that's part of the wonderful thing about loving big
(29:31):
is, you know, I want, I want himto be remembered for the
wonderful man, you know, that hewas and the contributions that
he made. It can't it all, you know, every
good deed comes with some sort of sacrifice.
But what you do is amazing to the congregation at First
Baptist. I mean, you have been in a
wonderful asset to this church and to this community, and I
just appreciate the opportunity to talk about it.
(29:52):
Well, again, I'm glad that we were able to work this out and
we've been listening to Kelly Dean Johnson after the last few
moments. And again, as always, thanks for
listening.
Thanks for stopping in everybody.
Very excited about our guest andI'll introduce her in a moment.
But I wanted to refer to an article which is really about
the topic today. It was for my good friend Doyle
Sager. It was a pastor in Missouri and
he incidentally was a dad of children, which makes his kids
preachers kids. This is what he said.
I want to begin with this, he writes.
(00:20):
Let me say at the outset that mythree children are all very
happy, well adjusted adults. And allow me also to say that
our kids had a wonderful experience growing up in a
pastors home for the most part, but unless you have lived in a
pastor's home, you have no idea the pressures and expectations
thrust upon the children of clergy.
And as a Segway, I'm very excited to have Kelly Johnson
(00:41):
with us today. Now the next few minutes I'm
going to emphasize the Dean partKelly Dean Johnson, who is the
director of the Clinton City Schools, which is just wrapping
up. And you've just come back from
lunch today. How you feeling about the school
year? Well, you're feeling good.
It's hard to believe that it's over, actually.
But we did 6th grade graduation today, so we graduated 105 sixth
grade students, and so it's beena great day.
(01:03):
I have a wife at home, is very excited about the finishing of
the school year, too. Now I feel like I have a little
bit of a connection with you because Laurie and I, we've just
celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary.
We met a seminary, We have been in the ministry pretty much our
lives which is 30 plus years. We have 3 kids who have grown up
listening to me preach and watching me do different things
(01:26):
until they got tired of that andgrew up and left the house.
But you were a preacher's kid. And I said once a pre-K, always.
Always. Preachers.
Kid, always. All right, so I was going to
start off with this because I'veheard a lot about your dad.
We're going to talk about Sam, but also Marie.
Your dad was here 20 years at First Baptist, which I think is
amazing. He was one of my predecessors.
(01:48):
So I want to ask what he and I get along.
You and him and gotten along fabulously.
Actually, when I look at all thepastors that have been at First
Baptist since he has left. In fact, I've told my husband
that that I think you and him probably would have been the
closest of friends. Well, what our personalities
kind of jive did you think? Very much so.
And in fact, it's funny, when you first came and I talked to
(02:10):
several of the First Baptist members, that was what they
would say. He's the closest thing that
we've gotten to your dad. He's he and your dad are a lot
alike. Well, that's right after I got
here. There are a lot of people who
said that to me and I regrettably, I didn't get a
chance to know him in person, but I was curious about that
because I hear his name a lot still and we remember his
ministry to this day. So I wanted to ask your parents
(02:33):
were in Ministry 50 years or so.I think they served in several
places, but they spent 20 years here in Clinton.
Is that is that right? They did so similarly like you,
they met at seminary. My Mama was going to seminary.
She actually dropped out of seminary and started teaching to
help dad get through seminary and she was actually engaged to
(02:53):
someone else to get married and met dad.
In a funny story, she said that she went to the library to study
and he was working in the library and she thought that he
had pretty legs. That was like the start of over
50 year marriage, but they were engaged 6 weeks later and so
then they went to Johnson City at Central Baptist in Johnson
City and then First Baptist in Jonesboro, Tennessee.
(03:15):
And then when I was six years old, he got called to Clinton.
OK, so you were six when you moved here?
Yeah, so I was born when he was pastor at First Baptist in
Jonesboro. OK, so we're sitting here in the
library of the church, in the sanctuary, just right across the
hall, and you've been here before, obviously.
I want to ask, what's it like being here in the place where
your dad was pastor for so long?This is just home.
(03:36):
A lot of people ask because, youknow, he was actually his
funeral was held here. You know, how do you feel, you
know, walking back in, you know,knowing that that is where his
funeral was held. It you can be gone for so long
and you walk back in and it justit's like home.
I mean, this, this place has my heart and my soul and it will
always just be a special place. Well.
What was it like? I mean, you grew up here,
(03:58):
obviously, and you are working here.
You live in Knoxville now, but essentially a lot of the people
have literally watched you grow up and they still see you now.
What's that like to interact with people who've watched you
grow up? So it's kind of crazy, I'll tell
you that. When I graduated high school,
went to Carson Newman and of course became a teacher, we were
(04:20):
trying to find my first teachingjob.
And my dad actually encouraged me, don't come back to Clinton.
You need to go and make your ownand you need to establish an
identity outside of yourself being a preacher's kid in
Clinton. And I want you to, you know, see
what's out there. So I went to Knox County and
taught for 18 years. And then as their health started
to decline, they were needing a lot more support.
(04:42):
And that's what initially led meback to Clinton.
And of course, it was just like walking back home.
You know, you walk through the elementary school of where you
went to school, of course the cafeteria looks a lot smaller
and the classrooms look a lot smaller.
But but being able to come back home and then spend that time
with them and I mean it just this is my home and this is my
(05:03):
heart. This is all I ever really
remember And so. Were eight when you came here 6.
You were six. I was in the 1st grade.
I started to Clinton Elementary School in the 1st grade and my
brother was in the third grade. Well, I was thinking about my
own kids because we've moved here six years ago and we lived
in Missouri for 12. And one of the things that, you
know, as their dad and as the pastor coming into a new place,
(05:23):
you're thinking about trying to meet all the new people.
And, and one of my kids mentioned to me one time when we
arrived that they were surprisedthat so many people already knew
who they were. And I had not explained to them
that it was kind of a big deal to be moving into this new town
and a new church and to explain that there was a picture of us
that had been circulated in the church and people knew them.
(05:45):
And I guess I'm asking, can you relate to that a little bit of
that like awkwardness about in the nod to George Wynch, who
just died a few days ago, the norm on Cheers, Yes.
What's it like where everybody knows your name and you may not
know their name right away? Well, I learned to say sweetie
and honey to a lot of people works today.
Still, that still works today, But there is no doubt that, you
(06:07):
know, you live in a glass bubblejust because the First Baptist
is the center of the community. And obviously Dad was a big part
of not only this, but he was a big part of the chamber.
And he was on the Carson Emman board.
And, you know, he'd like to savea 10 club, so he'd like to be
involved in the community. So obviously the church knew who
we were, but, you know, the larger scale of the community
knew who we were as well. And, you know, that was a time
(06:29):
when, you know, children rode their bikes, you know,
everywhere. So I would hop on my bike and go
to JC Park and swim all day longand mom would have no idea where
I was. And we were fine with that back
in the day. And so, you know, certainly
everyone knew who you were. I do remember as a kid thinking
that I was the luckiest person ever because I was guaranteed to
go to heaven because my daddy was a pastor.
(06:49):
That's in the fine print, right?Fine print somewhere I'm.
Sure, what the preachers kids have to go through.
And again, the average pastoratenowadays is like 3 years.
And like I say, I've been here six.
And then to think about your dadbeing here, here 20 years,
what's it like? I mean, you work here now.
You have some of the same relationships with the people
(07:11):
that you knew when you were younger.
And they do they still remember you when you were this high.
I'm putting my arm out there. And did it ever feel like you
were living in a glass house or in a bubble when you were small?
And again, just to be here now. Yeah, well, my mom and dad
always. And if people who people who
know my dad know this is that hewas a human 1st and then he was
(07:32):
a pastor. And I think a lot of people put
this expectation or this perception of pastors that
they're somehow superhuman. And so, you know, I watched my
dad struggle. I watched how hard his job was
growing up. But he also went into the
ministry knowing the pressures of that was going to put on my
brother and me. And he was very, very cognizant
(07:54):
sometimes almost to a fault, to not ever make us feel the
pressures of being a preacher's kid and letting us grow up up
and make mistakes. And we did make mistakes.
And there were times that he wasdisappointed in us, but he knew
he wanted us to feel what it waslike to grow up as normal as can
be. I can't say that that, you know,
always worked out because obviously we were in the glass
(08:15):
bubble. But I will tell you from a
parental perspective, he always was very cognizant to not make
me feel the pressure of being a preacher's kid.
That's what I would would think about because with my own kids
and you're going up in that dynamic, being in the home of a
pastor, did you ever sense therewas any additional pressure on
you like that you put on yourself or that other people
(08:36):
put on you because you're a quote UN quote preacher's kid
and you're supposed to set the example?
You do, you do, I mean, like the, the special days, Mother's
Day and Father's Day, it was very, you know, you had to look
a certain way and we had to haveour corsage on.
And my family still jokes with me to this day that I have post
traumatic stress about Easter Sunday because that was just,
(08:56):
you know, you had to look a certain way and look a certain
way. It's a Super Bowl of.
And so my family will tell you now that I like to camp and I
boycott the dresses because so much pressure was on finding the
right dress and the right corsage and your hair had to
look a certain way. Yeah.
Well, let me ask you this because I'm trying to be mindful
(09:16):
of this too. And more so when my kids were
small and they're still in the house.
It sounds like Sam and I guess Marie too, because they were
both in it together. They tried not to bring weather
difficulties or challenges into the home.
And from your just reflecting onthat, do you think that that
worked out well or could you tell kind of since when things
(09:37):
were? You could sense it for sure.
I remember coming home from school and Dad would always make
it a point to drop everything that he was doing and spend time
with us, whether it was, you know, playing basketball or
outside or hitting tennis ball, you know, against the side of
the pastorium. Because remember, back in the
day, we lived in the church's house.
That's right. We lived in a pastorium.
(09:58):
So that was a little bit of pressure on its own just because
that wasn't our house. So we had to be careful with
what we did with it. And of course, Mom and Dad
wanted us to be very respectful because it wasn't our home, but
he always, you know, carved out time.
But I will tell you, when I first met my husband and I went
to his house and I saw that theyhad family dinner together and I
(10:19):
was like, you all sit at a tableand eat dinner every night
together. And that was like a foreign
concept to me because while he could carve out an initial time
for me, then he was gone. He was gone to the church or he
was gone to some sick person's house or someone had passed away
or he had a funeral. And so I have very few memories
of my family other than at Christmas or Thanksgiving or a
(10:40):
special occasion where we were able to sit down together as a
family. Now we would go out to eat after
church together as a family at arestaurant, but that wasn't a
part of our nightly routine because that was, I mean, the
church was the priority. So for you to go see that and
say, well, this is how other people do it and then you
realize that's not how you're doing at your house.
(11:02):
I guess I was thinking, as you look back, can you think of some
experiences that stick out of your mind, maybe some positives
or some maybe some difficulties or negative ones through the
years? You know, I will tell you that
my dad is one of the most amazing people that you will
ever meet and he was always my person.
But he, you never knew the bubbles that were going on in
the church. He was very, I mean, if you told
(11:23):
him something, it went to the grave with him.
And if you told him to keep it asecret, he was going to keep it
a secret. Anybody that he counseled, we
never know that we never knew the insurance and outs and the
bad things about the churches. But we saw the stress and how it
played out and just how when he came home, he needed, he would
have that time with us, but thenhe would need alone time.
(11:44):
And like when we went on vacations, it would be my mom
and Chris and I were out at the beach having fun.
Dad would be sitting on the balcony because he needed quiet.
He needed quiet. He needed that personal in a
reflection time just because as a pastor, you're tugged in 150
different directions with 150 different opinions.
And you say something from the pulpit that's interpreted 150
(12:07):
different ways that people have opinions about.
So when he could find peace, he needed to be by himself.
He was a he was a very reflective thinker.
He was very intelligent, loved to read books.
And so while we got time with him, the church got the majority
of the time of him. He used the phrase preacher's
kid. You know, we joke about, you
know, keeping the deacons kids away from the preacher's kids.
(12:28):
But to be called a preacher's kid by other people.
Do you ever was there a time that you kind of realized how I
am a preacher's kid and recognize that maybe your
upbringing was a little bit different from some of the other
people in the community? It took a while for me to figure
that out because I just knew what I knew.
And so I thought everybody else was being raised in the way that
(12:50):
I was being raised. And that was just, that was the
only normal. That's all that I knew.
And, you know, I surrounded myself with First Baptist
people. And so those were my best
friends. And that's who, you know, we
would after school come over here and hang out.
And of course we had choir and we did hand bells back in the
day and all of that stuff. And so I did not really realize
(13:12):
until, frankly, because I went to Carl Stephen College, I did
not realize until I got out intothe working world.
Wow. You know, I was raised kind of
different than a lot of people. The pressure was never there,
but it just mean definitely faith was a big part of, you
know, faith was a big part of our upbringing.
Well. Actually you're in a leadership
role now and have been for several years.
(13:35):
And I was trying to put the pieces together in terms of the
kind of the trajectory of the different 10 years of the pastor
It's and I was, I was thinking that Sam had a big part of
elevating the importance of women serving in this church.
Am I right about that? He did.
He had very, very strong feelings, which was uncommon at
that time. And that's what I'm saying.
(13:55):
It was very uncommon at the time, but he had very, very
strong feelings. And that's part of the the
person I am today is that he from a very young age, taught me
that I could accomplish anythingas a woman that I wanted to
accomplish. And in fact, when I would try to
sell myself short, he would callme, he would call me down for
that. And I mean, his expectations
were extremely high for both Chris and me.
(14:17):
But, you know, he was the first minister in this area to ordain
a female into the ministry, which was Cindy Egner.
And, you know, I think he was kind of shocked that he didn't
get like kicked out of the community for that.
But he also was the type of person, and if he believes that,
he's gonna stand up for it. Yeah.
And I mean, for me being here, I've benefited from the
positions and the decisions thatSam made and also way back in
(14:40):
the day with Paul Turner, you know, the history of the church
there. So we kind of stand on their
shoulders. But from your vantage point, and
I was curious your perspective because I have two daughters and
there's some things that they they hear from me, but there are
also some things that they maybeobserve.
And I would like to think that they are affirmed as as women in
ministry or leaders in the community.
And I'm hearing that you got that in the home and also
(15:03):
through the church with your dad.
He was very adamant that just because I was, because I was a
girl, he felt almost that I was more empowered to do greater
things. And so that was that was deeply
instilled. He was more of the intellectual
leader of the family. Mom took a little bit more of a
passive role. I think she, in hindsight,
(15:26):
really, really struggled being aminister's wife.
And I think the pressures were extremely difficult on her and I
think she had a hard time being comfortable in her skin, which
played out further, you know, inher life and some mental health
issues. We've been talking about Sam, of
course, because it being the pastor, but I was thinking about
Marie. That's a lot of stress her as
(15:48):
the quote UN quote pastor's wifeand seeing them work together.
As you think about your mom and and how they work together, did
you they seem to work well together.
They seem to try to handle pressure well together.
What are some personality traitsthat maybe, as you think about
being a child in that home, thatmaybe they passed along to you?
I would like to say that I'm as intelligent as my daddy is, but
(16:11):
that would not be true. He's one of the smartest people
I've ever met. I think I'm, but you know, I
think Chris and I are a combination of both of them.
Actually, I think the older thatI get, the more feisty I get.
Like my Mama, my Mama was very feisty.
And if you're listening and you know her, you know that that is,
that is true. But you know, I have the love of
learning and I'll, you know, I have the work ethic and I have
(16:32):
the drive. I think I have the reflection
piece that that Daddy instilled in US.
Well, this one, the next thing Iwant to talk, talk about, it's
kind of personal because again, I have 3 kids that are kind of
in college or beyond. And some of the reading that
I've done, and maybe you're aware of this too, Children who
grow up in a pastor's home, they, they don't always stay in
the church and there are reasonsfor that.
(16:53):
But I can't up thinking that maybe one of them has to do with
what, how they see their parentstreated while they're in that
line of work. And I guess I'm asking, is that
a sentiment that you can relate to and and talk about you,
you're still involved in the church?
Yeah, 100%. And you know, Daddy had his
(17:13):
struggles. We didn't hear a lot about
specifically what they were, butthere are a lot of pressures for
a preacher and a preacher's wife.
So, you know, church is human too.
And I think sometimes, especially a lot of non
Christians think that churches are hypocritical.
It's not that we're hypocritical, it's that we're
human. And so I think that you see the
(17:35):
ugly of the church enough where you see the human flaws that it
makes it difficult to want to continue to participate in that
at times just because you see the ugly.
And you see how people with a good heart who have convictions
that they feel like is from God.But Christians don't always
(17:57):
treat Christians in a kind of manner.
And, you know, there were some difficult church members.
They're just worried they gave Daddy a hard time.
There was difficult staff members that gave Daddy a hard
time. And while I never knew the
specifics of it, I knew enough and was intuitive enough to know
that he was on the struggle bus with it.
And I think, you know, he was still in his prime when he
retired. He actually retired at a very
young age. But I think he felt that stress
(18:19):
weighing on him. And he knew, he said to be at a
church this long is almost unheard of.
And I've had a really, really good run.
And I would rather leave while people still appreciate what I'm
having to say versus my time is up.
And you know, I leave a little too late.
What's encouraging to me to knowthat you are involved in in your
church in Knoxville? Because again, for my own
(18:40):
children as they get older, they've been primarily obviously
under my influence and lorries and try to give them a good
background. But when you work in the church
and you're on a staff, especially as pastor and you are
in the home as a child, and you're kind of helpless to do
anything about it. It's understandable that you
might want to project that onto other churches and say I don't
(19:00):
want anything to do that. But I'm looking at you and
hearing you say that it is possible to find connection.
It is possible. I will say it's been a journey
for me. It hasn't always been always
been that way. I struggled greatly finding a
place to settle, you know, after, you know, getting married
and leaving here. Had lots of conversations with
dad. And for those of you who know
(19:23):
him, you know, he had a wonderful sense of humor and
truly was just, he was a human. And if you got him away from the
church and at a, you know, a friend gathering, or I mean, he
was, you would never know. He's a pastor.
He's just a normal person. You know, humor to me, I just
think you have to laugh at certain things.
And it just sounds like to have to be able to laugh and to
(19:45):
engage in humor. I just think that's like life
giving in a way to process things is to be able to laugh.
Makes you relatable I mean I will tell you the difference
that I've seen in the struggle that that I have had recently is
just the division and that was always and he raised us to
believe I mean I'll never forgetthat we had to do a debate in
(20:08):
high school and of all things I got chosen the.
Abortion and I came home and he said what side are you going to
pick? And I said well I'm going to
pick the anti abortion. He said no, you're not.
He said I want you to pick the pro side.
And I said really? And he said yes.
He said you've got to learn to see the other side of people's
opinions so that you can learn where your opinion is going to
be. And he forced me to take that
(20:30):
side and he actually helped me win the debate on that side.
Not that he believed with it, but he was a firm believer that
you need to see both sides of every situation and that we need
to be tolerant of each other. And so my dad went to his grave.
I never knew if he was a Democrat or Republican.
I never knew one single president that he voted for.
He told me it was none of my business.
He says none of your business. It's none of my friend's
(20:52):
business. It's none of the church's
business. That's that's a private thing.
He said because that doesn't impact my relationship with
people. People can believe different
than I can believe. And I can still be very good
friends with them. And so he really instilled that
level of tolerance that we can all be believers, but that
doesn't mean that we we all believe the exact same way or
(21:14):
interpret something. And that never threatened him.
And he encouraged his congregation and encouraged us
to read it and interpret it the way because he said the truth is
when we get to heaven, all of usare going to have gotten it a
lot wrong. So let's be humble about.
What a gift that was that you were raised that way because
that's not the way it is in every pastor's home now.
(21:34):
Obviously you were, you grew up Baptist, you know, in a Baptist
Church going to talk about and ask you have there been any
principles or distinctives that maybe you were taught early on
that maybe have influenced you and how in your professional
life that stay with you? Yeah, I think the biggest thing
that they instilled in First Baptist, instilled in me is that
(21:55):
it is a relationship based. I mean, it's a relationship with
God. It's not about how good you can
be. It's not about a set of rules
and regulations. It's about walking with Jesus.
And, you know, there's going to be ups and downs and mom and
dad, really they struggled at the end of their life with, you
know, severe pain and just lots of suffering that, you know, I
would just get extremely angry that, you know, they've lived
(22:17):
their life for the Lord and they've lived this life of
faith. And why are we having to endure
this suffering for seven or eight years before we can go
reap our reward? You know, he just life is not
fair, Kelly. And he told me that from a very
young age, this this side of theworld is broken and it is not
fair. Don't ever expect it to to be
fair, because it's not going to be.
Well, that's a great segue into this one because because you
(22:38):
know, Sam wrote a blog and or doyou have written A blog?
Yeah, I wrote the blog. Called the Baptist rabbi, picked
up this one, says lessons learned from a Baptist rabbi.
And I wanted to ask what are some lessons that you may have
have learned from your dad and your mom?
And if you don't remember any, you've written them here.
This was a couple years ago, butwhat are some lessons that maybe
(23:01):
have stayed with you? So that that was like a crazy
idea to do the blog, but I was really struggling when I first
moved to Clinton and began beingthere basically full time
caregiver while working in Clinton City Schools.
And you look back and that was such a blessing.
So how long have you been director?
I've been director. This is finishing up my 9th
year. I've been in Clinton City
Schools for 13. But, you know, I never, I would
(23:22):
have, if I would have stayed in Knox County, I never would have
gotten the opportunity. I wouldn't have spent the time
with him that I would have spentwith him if I wasn't their
caregiver. And that was such a precious
time because I was able to sit with him on the dock, you know,
and just for him to reflect about his life and his
experiences and his beliefs. And so one night I just couldn't
sleep because I was worried about him.
And so I just got up and startedwriting.
(23:44):
And that was just kind of, I tell people that that blog was
my therapy as that I watched them struggle.
I just took the time to reflect on the impact that that they
both have had on my life and shaping my life.
And the Baptist Rabbi came from one of his secretary's husbands
in Jonesboro, who was a good friend of his, but wasn't
really. He had very colorful language
(24:05):
and wasn't really into the church very much.
But daddy loved him and they were very, very good friends.
And so he tagged him and sort ofcalled him the Baptist Rabbi.
So that's where that name came from.
And it kind of stuck with him. I've got a few more minutes with
you and this, this is a good way, I think, to bring this to a
close. I started off by saying I wish I
had gotten here in time to get to know him and your mom.
(24:26):
But you've written about this onone of your blog entries now.
Sam died in May of 20/19. He was 77.
And then your mom died in Augustof 2019.
And I'm, I didn't do the math, but that's about 100 days, give
or take. And you bury both of your
parents. And in a sense, regardless of
age or suddenly I realize I'm anorphan in a way.
(24:48):
How did you navigate through that period of time and maybe
could talk about what sustained you?
Yeah, that was probably one of the hardest times of my life,
just because so much of my identity had become taking care
of them. And honestly speaking, we never
thought that we'd lose Daddy first.
I mean, we always in our head thought that we would lose Mama
first. It did not surprise me that it
went close together just becausethey did life together and we're
(25:11):
so supportive of each other and had that relationship that I
knew Mama would not do well longwithout him.
And she grieved herself. She grieved herself to death.
And we know that she often said in her room that she could feel
Dad's presence in there at night.
And that gave her peace. But that was her person in her
life. And she devoted her life to
daddy and to being a, you know, a minister's wife.
(25:31):
And so when the minister's wife was no longer there, she
struggled. But then when Daddy wasn't
there, she really struggled. But I think the thing that
sustained us was just. And I really, honestly, when
they passed away, I thought, I don't know that I can stay in
Clinton. I don't know that I can continue
to drive to Clinton every day, but there's such peace because
he's everywhere in Clinton. And, you know, I see them
everywhere in Clinton. You know, just we were setting
(25:53):
up for graduation yesterday and this couple comes up to me and
says, you probably don't remember us, but we joined First
Baptist Church when we moved here and your dad was our
pastor. And we remember him coming to
our house for the first time. And this is what he said, you
know, so I get the memories. Those are little gifts.
They're gifts, they're we call them kisses from heaven.
And so, you know, when you lose a loved 1, you do grieve, but
(26:16):
you're worth fear is that they're not going to be
remembered for their impact thatthey've had.
And so I get to drive to Clintonevery day and see the impact
that he that he had. And so, you know, I find joy and
just being able to come to the city that I love, the city that
raised me, the church that raised me into what I am.
And I had the honor of being thehands and feet of Jesus for 1000
(26:38):
kids. It just doesn't get any better.
Two more things, and this is what I'm curious about, what you
think about this. Why do you wish churches knew
about pastors and their families?
Wow. And preachers, kids.
Do I have 45 minutes? Do I have 45 minutes?
That could be another installment.
After I talk to the people who say how feisty you are, it's I
(26:59):
just think that's people in the Pew don't really understand.
You don't. It's a different dynamic, but
this is the old cliche What? What do you wish churches knew
you know? Knowing then what you know now,
You could pass along some insight.
That you are human. That you are.
That you are human and you, you are just relaying God's word to
people. But I think we all come to
(27:21):
church very egocentric and we come to church wanting to get
out of it what we want out of it, when really we should be
coming to church to see what we can give to it.
And so just as when I stand up in front of my staff and
students and say something, it is interpreted so many different
ways. You're in a glass bubble, Lori's
in a glass bubble, your kids arein a glass bubble.
So every move and everything that you say is being
(27:43):
scrutinized through the experiences and the perception,
you know, the individual that isperceiving it.
And then you have to answer for that in a wide variety of
different beliefs and personalities.
And it's constant. I mean, being a pastor is not a
nine to five job. It is a 24/7 job.
We never went on a vacation thatwe weren't called back for some
(28:04):
reason. And that was really not even
during the times of Internet andthat kind of accessible.
No, I would come home from the beach and Daddy says sorry guys,
we're leaving a day early. I've got to go to a funeral.
And so I don't think people, I think the general congregation,
unless you were actively involved, think that pastors
jobs is just show up and just deliver a sermon one day.
Wait, deliver a sermon. It it is that there's nothing
(28:26):
further than the truth. It is 24/7.
And if you're not on it, you're thinking about it, you're
reflecting about it, you're worrying about it, you're trying
to find your next, you know, niche for a sermon.
And so it is definitely, you know, a definitely a lifestyle
that takes a toll. I mean, I watched it take a toll
on my daddy and he was one of the best and he wouldn't have
traded it for the world. But do I?
(28:47):
I think that the stress of that played into him having
Parkinson's and a terrible case of the shingles, 100% I do.
Do I think he would have done anything differently?
He wouldn't have. But I think there just needs to
be more grace and mercy that is given to pastors and their
families. Like that and that's probably a
good place to stop on. And I just want to say Laurie
and I are glad to know you and to have you in our lives.
(29:10):
And I know this church who knowsyou and has known you through
the years. Appreciate your parents and we
remember their life and ministry.
And just before we go, any finalthoughts that maybe I didn't
touch on that you want to mention?
Now I just, I mean, I appreciatethe opportunity, you know, any
chance that I can talk about hisimpact on the community and me?
You know, that's part of the wonderful thing about loving big
(29:31):
is, you know, I want, I want himto be remembered for the
wonderful man, you know, that hewas and the contributions that
he made. It can't it all, you know, every
good deed comes with some sort of sacrifice.
But what you do is amazing to the congregation at First
Baptist. I mean, you have been in a
wonderful asset to this church and to this community, and I
just appreciate the opportunity to talk about it.
(29:52):
Well, again, I'm glad that we were able to work this out and
we've been listening to Kelly Dean Johnson after the last few
moments. And again, as always, thanks for
listening.
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