May 20, 2025 • 19 mins
Rev. Jason Taylor unpacks a recent sermon concerning the bribe and lie the religious leaders gave the soldiers to explain the empty tomb. Yet there have been additional "lies" that have been told that impact the church's life and ministry. Jason offers some thoughts about how to respond to questions about the Christian faith, while emphasizing the importance of authenticity for followers of Christ. Jason is an ordained Baptist minister and graduate of Carson Newman University. He is currently serving on staff at First Baptist Church in historic Clinton, TN.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey, thanks for joining us today.
I'm very excited about my very first guest on this podcast.
And before I I introduce him, I wanted to mention another person
and his name is Fisher Humphreys.
And Fisher was my first theologyprofessor at New Orleans
Seminary. And he wrote a book called The
Death of Christ, which dealt with the number of theories of
atonement. And one of the things I remember
(00:22):
about Fisher Humphreys was his debate with Paige Patterson on
the campus New Orleans Seminary.And Fisher's point of view was
that there were a number, a number of theories of atonement.
And he favored Christopher forgiveness, but Patterson
seemed to think that penal substitution was the only one.
But in typical Humphreys fashion, and this has been kind
(00:43):
of my approach, he tried to findthe common ground.
And the one thing that he said was that despite their
differences, they both affirmed the resurrection of Jesus
Christ. And I want to spend a few
moments talking about this historic event, this pivotal
moment for our faith with my a good friend and colleague, Jason
Taylor. Jason, how you doing?
I'm doing good. How?
Long have you been in in the ministry, Jason.
(01:05):
I believe I started about 27 years ago, so I ran out of high
school pretty much graduated 98.Experience for you on the whole,
mostly. Yes, yeah, it's had its moments
and challenges, but it's that's what's about.
Well, well, tell us a little bitabout this passage of scripture
that we're looking at. And I think you said the title
of it was Liar, Liar Pants on Fire.
(01:26):
Yes, I counted that liar, liar, pants on fire because we just so
happened to be also allowing ourchildren to lead the worship
that Sunday, the every aspect ofthe worship.
And so I was trying to find a title and I was sitting in the
office and talking with some colleagues.
I was just trying to think, man,what would be a good title for
this message? And with children leading the
worship, I just kept thinking, man, that's that's a phrase that
(01:48):
kids use all the time. Liar, liar, pants on fire.
And I said, this goes really, really well with this passage of
Scripture and which is Matthew 2811 through 15, which is the
guards report following resurrection.
So that's that's where I got thetitle from.
Well. We've been spending a little
time in some of these post resurrection experiences the
last several weeks. I know we've been talking about
(02:08):
it. What piqued your curiosity about
this passage? Well, I think two things.
I thought the first thing was that it was it just so happened
to be an event that happened between the two times you were
preaching on either side of me. So we kind of kept things
chronologically. But also I think what piqued my
interest was the fact that I haven't heard much about it.
I haven't heard many sermons about it.
(02:30):
There's not a lot written about it and extent.
And so I kept thinking this would be something to really to
speak on and knowing that there's some good, as you say,
meat and potatoes that are in that in this in just these 5
verses it found in the book of Matthew.
Well, just from tell us a littlebit about what the those few
verses talked about. I mean, he wasn't very long, but
there was a lot to it. Yeah, those verses really kind
(02:52):
of leaned towards that. They decided to go early in the
morning and meet with the high priests and let them know of the
events that occurred. And, and pretty much the high
priest step in and say, no, thisis what occurred.
And and this is what you're going to say.
And and you're going to say these things from here on out.
And here's some money to compensate for you to spread
(03:12):
this, this new truth, this this false truth in contrary to what
you actually experienced you. Find it kind of surprising.
I mean, you have these religiousleaders that ideally are
supposed to ethical people and now they're they're offering
money, I guess, to bribe the guards.
Yeah, it's interesting because they're they're, well, for one,
I had to talk about a few versesbefore the guards report about
(03:35):
how we got to this point. And part of the interesting
thing is that the writer of Matthew talks about how the
priests went on the day after preparation day, which is the
Sabbath. So they decided to work on the
Sabbath and make their way to Pontius Pilate and say, listen,
we need to guard this tomb because we're afraid some things
are going to happen that we don't want to happen.
(03:56):
And so they already start going against their own traditions in
the beginning to save this, to make this story theirs.
And then following the resurrection, they continue to
even go against their own laws and Deuteronomy and Levitical
laws about bribery and about false truths and not spreading
lies. And it's almost like they
believe they're above that law or they force that law on their
(04:19):
people, but they don't have to follow it themselves.
Very narcissistic. Yeah, well.
We were having a laugh about this when we were talking about
it. I mean, were there any other
course? They were saying they told them
what the story was. They came up with a scandal or
or a lie of some sort, but were there any details that you
thought were kind of ironic or humorous in terms of some of the
things that they said to say in the explanation?
(04:42):
Yeah, I think there's a few things that really jumped out at
me for one, first of all, it's it's likely that the disciples
would have abandoned him upon his arrest, but would have come
back and risked their lives in order to steal his dead body
later. Because it's just it's like they
weren't themselves, according toscripture, expecting the
resurrection themselves. So why would they go back and
steal this body? Also, could they have really
(05:04):
accomplished this task with, with the guards that were that
were asleep there or guarding the tomb, knowing what we know
of historically of the guards that guarded there and the
amount of weaponry and amount ofpower that they had and are
willing to go in, sneak in there, move this heavy stone
away, remove a body, as I joked,do the laundry before they leave
(05:24):
by folding up the cloth in a nice neatly battered.
And also too, I mean the likely that all the guards had fallen
asleep. If there was that many guards.
And and with that, if they were all asleep.
And how would the soldiers know it was the Lord's disciples that
stole the body, which is an obvious kind of like big
question mark. And the biggest thing too,
towards the end, I kept thinking, if this truly did
(05:45):
happen the way they say they did, that they stole this body,
then why didn't the Jewish leaders persecute the disciples
of Jesus? Why did they not go after all of
them right after this event and get Rome involved and get and
get the high priest involved andget these people taken care of
if they had done this heinous act of stealing a body?
(06:05):
I was trying to put myself in the position of the guards.
I mean, I guess it's kind of embarrassing.
You know, you've got what I'm asked about.
We would call the Black Ops guarding this tomb.
And then to have to say, oh, we fell asleep.
We all fell asleep, you know, And for this to happen in these,
these disciples overpowered them.
There was a verse at the end of the section that says something
about this story that's being told to this very day.
(06:27):
And I mean, some of your reading, what kind of story were
they talking about? Well, one of the one of the
ideas we have to keep in mind that that that passage there
says that this story has been held on to this day.
We're looking at a writer who wrote this passage probably 40
to 60 years after the event of the resurrection.
(06:49):
And so of, of what I've read, there was probably a lot of
stolen corpse rumors being passed around.
How did this unfold? What had happened?
And so I think the writer is just kind of responding.
I think they added this. We don't find, they'll find this
passage in any of the other gospels except Matthews.
And so I think Matthew, the writer of Matthew is just
choosing to respond to this chatter that's going on.
(07:12):
There's there's not a lot of material that's out there.
I was going to ask you, what didyou find any like what we call
extra biblical or some of the historical writers?
Have you read anything else about that?
Just, I mean, if you think aboutthe just the writings of was it
Philo and Josephus? Just some of the historical
stuff, they, they just mentionedthat the followers are still
(07:32):
following this and still sendingthis message out of I think it's
Josephus that refers to the people of the way, you know.
And so it says like they still have followers to this day, but
not a lot about heavy rumors. And I thought it was interesting
because after talking with this message to some people, they had
(07:54):
asked that question. I wonder what the story was that
that was being spread around andwhat's the story that he had
resurrected and it was covered up?
Or was it just the fact that OK,there was a cover up or he did
really in fact resurrect and andthey're lying about it now?
We do. It's like from course, we're
kind of we're not unbiased observed servers here where
people of faith and we're kind of going into it from that
(08:16):
standpoint. But just looking at some of the
material, that seems like the acceptance of the resurrection
would be more palatable and reasonable than some of the the
scandals and fake news, would you say?
Well, yeah, I mean, the, the holes that arose from this lie,
I mean, to think about all of the details that you would have
to continually remember to continually to perpetuate this
(08:37):
lie and to keep it going into making sure that you have all of
the the the evidence with it, the the whole package evidence
with it all. And.
Or just say, you know, what he said, what he said, he
resurrected. And it could have been as simple
as that. But.
But to to keep this going and tokeep the money flowing to to
make sure that this stays where it needs to stay, you know, to
(08:58):
force the narrative a specific way.
Yeah. Well.
You know, of course, we live in East Tennessee and it's the
buckle of the Bible Belt and kind of pivoting off of that a
little bit. Of course, with our line of work
and working together on staff ata church, we, we assume certain
things. But I, I was wondering, you
know, from your experience, do you think it's important to
revisit the empty tomb, you know, in your personal life as
(09:21):
well as maybe the ministry for the church 0.
Definitely, I think it's we, it's, it's said, we've said it
multiple times that you know, Sunday, every Sunday is the
celebration of that empty tomb. Every Sunday is a celebration of
what Jesus has done for us. And, and I, I think it's very
important to remind, to remind yourself, I'm the, I'm the type
of person personally that that wants to slowly work themselves
(09:44):
through Holy Week and be able toreally reflect a lot.
I used to have the tradition of watching either a film or
something that really hones in on the experience of that Holy
Week and allow myself to just kind of meditate it and focus on
that to, to take its time. And I used to not be that way.
I used to be like most and just rush through it.
We're all pushing towards Sunday, but I realized the
(10:04):
importance of going through Thursday and Friday.
And as time is going on, I thinkthe church, I think it's
important for the church to do the same thing.
And I'm, I'm really appreciativethat we here at that, at our
church, we have this opportunityto be able to just step through
it lightly, just slowly as we work our way to the celebration
of Easter. It's, it's been a blessing to
that. I just think you can really
encompass the whole story together.
(10:27):
Well, along those lines too. And I mean, we, we just assume
with all the churches we have around here that everyone goes
to church and everyone is a believer.
And of course we know that's notthe case.
But but in terms of, I mean, youknow, you and I both bump into
people here locally, they have questions.
How do you deal with people, or how do you you work with people
who have questions or doubts about the resurrection story and
(10:50):
about Christianity in general? Really, the important thing is
just being open and acceptive toanybody who has questions and
doubts and be able to talk with them and share with them your
experience with the story personally, and then their
experience and realizing they'recoming from two different
journeys. I've been in situations in which
apologetics was the focus to thepoint that it created such a
(11:12):
roadblock sometimes. You can try to win the argument
and and you could win the argument and then you you kind
of lose the relationship. Yes, and I think you can, you
can easily run into your, your own personal biases and agenda
with that. And, and you can even people
tend to lean in towards misuse of Scripture to get that point
across too. But I think it's very important
(11:33):
for to just being open to people's doubts and questions
because I think we all come fromdoubts and questions.
And I don't think we all haven'tfigured out.
I think it's hard for us to really say that we've got it all
figured out and we've got God already packaged well enough for
me to do that. OK.
Well, that's a good segue to this one because we started off
with the empty tomb and some of the scandal, which was really
right out of the gate. There were efforts to disprove
(11:55):
the resurrection, but we're calling it like the big lie.
That's a phrase we're familiar with that was related to more of
a political context. But the religious leaders were
trying to sell the guards a lie.And I guess they did.
And I was thinking about, and again, this is kind of a
parallel track, but maybe some other lies that that we've had
to get into, you know, in terms of the church and of course, the
(12:17):
sale of indulgences going back to the Protestant Reformation.
But I was wondering if you had any thoughts about I'm using
this loosely, quote UN quote. Any other lies that maybe get
told or sold. See how I made that rhyme Told
or sold in the church or about the church?
It's interesting because when I,when I think about that, I think
(12:37):
about all of toxic theology that's out there that's been
created to create comfort, especially when we deal with
people who have passed away and how we respond to that.
We we adopt even churches adopt these ideologies of just the end
times unfold or what's the greatmystery beyond and how that's
supposed to unfold and and they get everybody thinking the same
(12:59):
way or the same direction of that happened to be person who
grew up Assembly of God Pentecostal.
And so I was raised in a very dispensation family and it
wasn't opened up to dispensationalism until I got to
college and had my eyes open andsaw that there was multiple ways
to interpret the end times and revelations and different things
like that and it really shook me.
(13:22):
It shook me to my core, knowing there were other ways to
interpret the scripture and I had been, I wouldn't say
brainwashed, but it felt like itbecause I'd only been taught a
specific way to see it. And I remember just weeping in
college. And honestly, the professor that
I talked with, I said to that professor, I felt duped in in my
(13:43):
faith. I felt like that I was just
being fed one way. And it really shook me, but it
allowed me to, as some would sayin common vernacular,
reconstruct my faith in in thoseareas and stuff.
And it was very rewarding for me.
And it became very personal. I felt more connected with God
because I had taken that journeyby myself now and had and had
(14:04):
accepted and believed in a way that I felt was my own personal
relationship with him. But yeah, I think there's
probably some others that are out there.
I know, I know, of course. We could create a list and you
know, the church is an easy target to be criticized and some
of it is deserving, But I just think that's all the more really
would be important for maybe forus minister types to to try to
be authentic. That's a word I don't want to
(14:26):
overuse, but I think you hinted at it just in the remaining
moments we have. Can you speak to the importance
of authenticity perhaps and whatthat would mean?
What do you what do? You mean by the word
authenticity? Well, just kind.
Of how important it would be to be honest with where we are in
our, our struggles and in our faith journey and maybe being
able to be honest with God. Because I've dealt with people,
you talked about being duped early on.
(14:48):
I think I've talked to people who have difficulty that they
feel like I can't, You know, this class I'm doing Tracks of a
Fellow Struggler, which is a book by John Claypool, and
that's one of the things he talks about, is trying to be
honest, one of the things. Some of the things that I've
realized as this journey has gone on is that I used to be a
person who theologically was so black and white.
(15:09):
And the more I'm in the text andthe more that I'm in my quiet
time, the more that I'm on this journey, I'm realizing that I'm
more in a Gray area. And that's not a bad thing
because I know as, as a friend of mine, as we look at it, we've
kind of talked about this before.
He would say, it's not that we're in a Gray area.
We're going in color. We're we're putting ourselves in
color. We were once black and white,
but now we're in color. And but an interesting thing
(15:31):
about it is that what hurts me now, I weep over the, the
relationships and the people that I hurt in my black and
whiteness through the years. And that's really, I struggle
with that and that, but that also spurs me on to other
relationships and other people and people that you encounter
that you don't know where they're at in this journey.
And you have to be open to that black and whiteness, but I
(15:53):
should be open to that Gray or that color area and realize that
I've been there too. And and, and relationships are
so important. And and I think it's important
for the church to to realize that relationships are are very
important and not to be hurtful in a way when someone begins to
see something a certain way. Yeah.
And of. Course, we see this in what we
do and I just think it's important to recognize that
(16:14):
we're not all in the same place in our understanding and our
spiritual ghost and it it is quite a challenge when you're in
the church, especially I have you for a few more minutes.
I was going to get your opinion about this.
You know, Jesus was harshest about and toward the religious
people of his day. And I guess this is more of your
perspective. Would you be more as you think
about the future of the church that's kind of uppercase, see
(16:36):
the church in general, would yoube more optimistic or
pessimistic about the future of the church?
And then coincidentally, maybe what are some things that keep
you going in the ministry? I think.
I'm more of an optimistic personin general with typical things
in my life and I think I see it as a more of an optimistic idea
of the future of the church. I do believe that the church
(16:58):
kinds of refreshes itself every few 100 years and has a tendency
to kind of, you know, kind of the wheat in the chaff, throw it
in the air kind of thing. I think it works some stuff
through, but I'm optimistic. I think the church has a has a
great opportunity and a great place to be, especially as
there's new things coming along,technology and social media and
(17:19):
we have opportunities now of outreach and things that we've
never been able to do. I think we can take advantage of
those opportunities in a good way, in a positive way and gives
us more opportunities to be opento new ideas, fresh ideas, other
people's journey. And I think we need to take
advantage of that, take advantage of that stuff.
And we have we have no greater time.
I think what keeps me going in ministry.
(17:39):
Yeah, that's. That's kind of I was curious
about that. I think the biggest.
Thing is that I put it in this. This stuff is real.
It really is real. And I just, what keeps me going
is that I just want other peopleto experience the realness.
You know, there's a lot of things that are going to pass
away and there's a lot of ideas and visions and pastors in our
(18:00):
lives, friends in our lives, things are going to pass away.
But this right here, this, this connection, this relationship
with God is so real. And I think what drives me is
just just making sure that people realize that people
realize that, you know what? This is something that's so
real, something so worth puttingyour time, effort, love and
energy into and encouraging people to do that.
(18:21):
And I think that's what's important.
And that's a good. Note to end on too, I mean, you
know, fortunately we get to kindof continue impact these things
as we go along, but I just foundyour message of a few weeks ago
which is really interesting, especially the title which I
thought was appropriate. But just one more thought.
Any final thoughts about the passage or anything else we
didn't cover you want to speak to?
(18:43):
Well, I think. I pretty much the way I ended my
message that day was pretty muchasking ourselves, think about
these soldiers. I think about the lie they had
to keep and for a payout to keepto to hold on to on those
shoulders of them. Maybe the lies that we're
holding on to. What are the lies that we're
holding on to? Maybe we started them.
Maybe we didn't start them, but we embraced them as our own.
(19:04):
Maybe the lie fueled our selfishthoughts and beliefs or
stimulated our points of view. And kind of the idea that I
wrapped up that whole message with that a lie has one sole
purpose to steal, kill and destroy.
And are we willing to embrace that and hold on to that, you
know, something that's going to steal, kill and destroy
everybody that it surrounds? You know, so those are just
(19:25):
things and thoughts that kind ofpour out of that passage for me
as I look at it, that sounds. Good.
Well, Jason, I appreciate your time today and more importantly,
I appreciate our being able to serve the Lord together.
And for those who are listening,we appreciate your time and
thanks for listening.
Hey, thanks for joining us today.
I'm very excited about my very first guest on this podcast.
And before I I introduce him, I wanted to mention another person
and his name is Fisher Humphreys.
And Fisher was my first theologyprofessor at New Orleans
Seminary. And he wrote a book called The
Death of Christ, which dealt with the number of theories of
atonement. And one of the things I remember
(00:22):
about Fisher Humphreys was his debate with Paige Patterson on
the campus New Orleans Seminary.And Fisher's point of view was
that there were a number, a number of theories of atonement.
And he favored Christopher forgiveness, but Patterson
seemed to think that penal substitution was the only one.
But in typical Humphreys fashion, and this has been kind
(00:43):
of my approach, he tried to findthe common ground.
And the one thing that he said was that despite their
differences, they both affirmed the resurrection of Jesus
Christ. And I want to spend a few
moments talking about this historic event, this pivotal
moment for our faith with my a good friend and colleague, Jason
Taylor. Jason, how you doing?
I'm doing good. How?
Long have you been in in the ministry, Jason.
(01:05):
I believe I started about 27 years ago, so I ran out of high
school pretty much graduated 98.Experience for you on the whole,
mostly. Yes, yeah, it's had its moments
and challenges, but it's that's what's about.
Well, well, tell us a little bitabout this passage of scripture
that we're looking at. And I think you said the title
of it was Liar, Liar Pants on Fire.
(01:26):
Yes, I counted that liar, liar, pants on fire because we just so
happened to be also allowing ourchildren to lead the worship
that Sunday, the every aspect ofthe worship.
And so I was trying to find a title and I was sitting in the
office and talking with some colleagues.
I was just trying to think, man,what would be a good title for
this message? And with children leading the
worship, I just kept thinking, man, that's that's a phrase that
(01:48):
kids use all the time. Liar, liar, pants on fire.
And I said, this goes really, really well with this passage of
Scripture and which is Matthew 2811 through 15, which is the
guards report following resurrection.
So that's that's where I got thetitle from.
Well. We've been spending a little
time in some of these post resurrection experiences the
last several weeks. I know we've been talking about
(02:08):
it. What piqued your curiosity about
this passage? Well, I think two things.
I thought the first thing was that it was it just so happened
to be an event that happened between the two times you were
preaching on either side of me. So we kind of kept things
chronologically. But also I think what piqued my
interest was the fact that I haven't heard much about it.
I haven't heard many sermons about it.
(02:30):
There's not a lot written about it and extent.
And so I kept thinking this would be something to really to
speak on and knowing that there's some good, as you say,
meat and potatoes that are in that in this in just these 5
verses it found in the book of Matthew.
Well, just from tell us a littlebit about what the those few
verses talked about. I mean, he wasn't very long, but
there was a lot to it. Yeah, those verses really kind
(02:52):
of leaned towards that. They decided to go early in the
morning and meet with the high priests and let them know of the
events that occurred. And, and pretty much the high
priest step in and say, no, thisis what occurred.
And and this is what you're going to say.
And and you're going to say these things from here on out.
And here's some money to compensate for you to spread
(03:12):
this, this new truth, this this false truth in contrary to what
you actually experienced you. Find it kind of surprising.
I mean, you have these religiousleaders that ideally are
supposed to ethical people and now they're they're offering
money, I guess, to bribe the guards.
Yeah, it's interesting because they're they're, well, for one,
I had to talk about a few versesbefore the guards report about
(03:35):
how we got to this point. And part of the interesting
thing is that the writer of Matthew talks about how the
priests went on the day after preparation day, which is the
Sabbath. So they decided to work on the
Sabbath and make their way to Pontius Pilate and say, listen,
we need to guard this tomb because we're afraid some things
are going to happen that we don't want to happen.
(03:56):
And so they already start going against their own traditions in
the beginning to save this, to make this story theirs.
And then following the resurrection, they continue to
even go against their own laws and Deuteronomy and Levitical
laws about bribery and about false truths and not spreading
lies. And it's almost like they
believe they're above that law or they force that law on their
(04:19):
people, but they don't have to follow it themselves.
Very narcissistic. Yeah, well.
We were having a laugh about this when we were talking about
it. I mean, were there any other
course? They were saying they told them
what the story was. They came up with a scandal or
or a lie of some sort, but were there any details that you
thought were kind of ironic or humorous in terms of some of the
things that they said to say in the explanation?
(04:42):
Yeah, I think there's a few things that really jumped out at
me for one, first of all, it's it's likely that the disciples
would have abandoned him upon his arrest, but would have come
back and risked their lives in order to steal his dead body
later. Because it's just it's like they
weren't themselves, according toscripture, expecting the
resurrection themselves. So why would they go back and
steal this body? Also, could they have really
(05:04):
accomplished this task with, with the guards that were that
were asleep there or guarding the tomb, knowing what we know
of historically of the guards that guarded there and the
amount of weaponry and amount ofpower that they had and are
willing to go in, sneak in there, move this heavy stone
away, remove a body, as I joked,do the laundry before they leave
(05:24):
by folding up the cloth in a nice neatly battered.
And also too, I mean the likely that all the guards had fallen
asleep. If there was that many guards.
And and with that, if they were all asleep.
And how would the soldiers know it was the Lord's disciples that
stole the body, which is an obvious kind of like big
question mark. And the biggest thing too,
towards the end, I kept thinking, if this truly did
(05:45):
happen the way they say they did, that they stole this body,
then why didn't the Jewish leaders persecute the disciples
of Jesus? Why did they not go after all of
them right after this event and get Rome involved and get and
get the high priest involved andget these people taken care of
if they had done this heinous act of stealing a body?
(06:05):
I was trying to put myself in the position of the guards.
I mean, I guess it's kind of embarrassing.
You know, you've got what I'm asked about.
We would call the Black Ops guarding this tomb.
And then to have to say, oh, we fell asleep.
We all fell asleep, you know, And for this to happen in these,
these disciples overpowered them.
There was a verse at the end of the section that says something
about this story that's being told to this very day.
(06:27):
And I mean, some of your reading, what kind of story were
they talking about? Well, one of the one of the
ideas we have to keep in mind that that that passage there
says that this story has been held on to this day.
We're looking at a writer who wrote this passage probably 40
to 60 years after the event of the resurrection.
(06:49):
And so of, of what I've read, there was probably a lot of
stolen corpse rumors being passed around.
How did this unfold? What had happened?
And so I think the writer is just kind of responding.
I think they added this. We don't find, they'll find this
passage in any of the other gospels except Matthews.
And so I think Matthew, the writer of Matthew is just
choosing to respond to this chatter that's going on.
(07:12):
There's there's not a lot of material that's out there.
I was going to ask you, what didyou find any like what we call
extra biblical or some of the historical writers?
Have you read anything else about that?
Just, I mean, if you think aboutthe just the writings of was it
Philo and Josephus? Just some of the historical
stuff, they, they just mentionedthat the followers are still
(07:32):
following this and still sendingthis message out of I think it's
Josephus that refers to the people of the way, you know.
And so it says like they still have followers to this day, but
not a lot about heavy rumors. And I thought it was interesting
because after talking with this message to some people, they had
(07:54):
asked that question. I wonder what the story was that
that was being spread around andwhat's the story that he had
resurrected and it was covered up?
Or was it just the fact that OK,there was a cover up or he did
really in fact resurrect and andthey're lying about it now?
We do. It's like from course, we're
kind of we're not unbiased observed servers here where
people of faith and we're kind of going into it from that
(08:16):
standpoint. But just looking at some of the
material, that seems like the acceptance of the resurrection
would be more palatable and reasonable than some of the the
scandals and fake news, would you say?
Well, yeah, I mean, the, the holes that arose from this lie,
I mean, to think about all of the details that you would have
to continually remember to continually to perpetuate this
(08:37):
lie and to keep it going into making sure that you have all of
the the the evidence with it, the the whole package evidence
with it all. And.
Or just say, you know, what he said, what he said, he
resurrected. And it could have been as simple
as that. But.
But to to keep this going and tokeep the money flowing to to
make sure that this stays where it needs to stay, you know, to
(08:58):
force the narrative a specific way.
Yeah. Well.
You know, of course, we live in East Tennessee and it's the
buckle of the Bible Belt and kind of pivoting off of that a
little bit. Of course, with our line of work
and working together on staff ata church, we, we assume certain
things. But I, I was wondering, you
know, from your experience, do you think it's important to
revisit the empty tomb, you know, in your personal life as
(09:21):
well as maybe the ministry for the church 0.
Definitely, I think it's we, it's, it's said, we've said it
multiple times that you know, Sunday, every Sunday is the
celebration of that empty tomb. Every Sunday is a celebration of
what Jesus has done for us. And, and I, I think it's very
important to remind, to remind yourself, I'm the, I'm the type
of person personally that that wants to slowly work themselves
(09:44):
through Holy Week and be able toreally reflect a lot.
I used to have the tradition of watching either a film or
something that really hones in on the experience of that Holy
Week and allow myself to just kind of meditate it and focus on
that to, to take its time. And I used to not be that way.
I used to be like most and just rush through it.
We're all pushing towards Sunday, but I realized the
(10:04):
importance of going through Thursday and Friday.
And as time is going on, I thinkthe church, I think it's
important for the church to do the same thing.
And I'm, I'm really appreciativethat we here at that, at our
church, we have this opportunityto be able to just step through
it lightly, just slowly as we work our way to the celebration
of Easter. It's, it's been a blessing to
that. I just think you can really
encompass the whole story together.
(10:27):
Well, along those lines too. And I mean, we, we just assume
with all the churches we have around here that everyone goes
to church and everyone is a believer.
And of course we know that's notthe case.
But but in terms of, I mean, youknow, you and I both bump into
people here locally, they have questions.
How do you deal with people, or how do you you work with people
who have questions or doubts about the resurrection story and
(10:50):
about Christianity in general? Really, the important thing is
just being open and acceptive toanybody who has questions and
doubts and be able to talk with them and share with them your
experience with the story personally, and then their
experience and realizing they'recoming from two different
journeys. I've been in situations in which
apologetics was the focus to thepoint that it created such a
(11:12):
roadblock sometimes. You can try to win the argument
and and you could win the argument and then you you kind
of lose the relationship. Yes, and I think you can, you
can easily run into your, your own personal biases and agenda
with that. And, and you can even people
tend to lean in towards misuse of Scripture to get that point
across too. But I think it's very important
(11:33):
for to just being open to people's doubts and questions
because I think we all come fromdoubts and questions.
And I don't think we all haven'tfigured out.
I think it's hard for us to really say that we've got it all
figured out and we've got God already packaged well enough for
me to do that. OK.
Well, that's a good segue to this one because we started off
with the empty tomb and some of the scandal, which was really
right out of the gate. There were efforts to disprove
(11:55):
the resurrection, but we're calling it like the big lie.
That's a phrase we're familiar with that was related to more of
a political context. But the religious leaders were
trying to sell the guards a lie.And I guess they did.
And I was thinking about, and again, this is kind of a
parallel track, but maybe some other lies that that we've had
to get into, you know, in terms of the church and of course, the
(12:17):
sale of indulgences going back to the Protestant Reformation.
But I was wondering if you had any thoughts about I'm using
this loosely, quote UN quote. Any other lies that maybe get
told or sold. See how I made that rhyme Told
or sold in the church or about the church?
It's interesting because when I,when I think about that, I think
(12:37):
about all of toxic theology that's out there that's been
created to create comfort, especially when we deal with
people who have passed away and how we respond to that.
We we adopt even churches adopt these ideologies of just the end
times unfold or what's the greatmystery beyond and how that's
supposed to unfold and and they get everybody thinking the same
(12:59):
way or the same direction of that happened to be person who
grew up Assembly of God Pentecostal.
And so I was raised in a very dispensation family and it
wasn't opened up to dispensationalism until I got to
college and had my eyes open andsaw that there was multiple ways
to interpret the end times and revelations and different things
like that and it really shook me.
(13:22):
It shook me to my core, knowing there were other ways to
interpret the scripture and I had been, I wouldn't say
brainwashed, but it felt like itbecause I'd only been taught a
specific way to see it. And I remember just weeping in
college. And honestly, the professor that
I talked with, I said to that professor, I felt duped in in my
(13:43):
faith. I felt like that I was just
being fed one way. And it really shook me, but it
allowed me to, as some would sayin common vernacular,
reconstruct my faith in in thoseareas and stuff.
And it was very rewarding for me.
And it became very personal. I felt more connected with God
because I had taken that journeyby myself now and had and had
(14:04):
accepted and believed in a way that I felt was my own personal
relationship with him. But yeah, I think there's
probably some others that are out there.
I know, I know, of course. We could create a list and you
know, the church is an easy target to be criticized and some
of it is deserving, But I just think that's all the more really
would be important for maybe forus minister types to to try to
be authentic. That's a word I don't want to
(14:26):
overuse, but I think you hinted at it just in the remaining
moments we have. Can you speak to the importance
of authenticity perhaps and whatthat would mean?
What do you what do? You mean by the word
authenticity? Well, just kind.
Of how important it would be to be honest with where we are in
our, our struggles and in our faith journey and maybe being
able to be honest with God. Because I've dealt with people,
you talked about being duped early on.
(14:48):
I think I've talked to people who have difficulty that they
feel like I can't, You know, this class I'm doing Tracks of a
Fellow Struggler, which is a book by John Claypool, and
that's one of the things he talks about, is trying to be
honest, one of the things. Some of the things that I've
realized as this journey has gone on is that I used to be a
person who theologically was so black and white.
(15:09):
And the more I'm in the text andthe more that I'm in my quiet
time, the more that I'm on this journey, I'm realizing that I'm
more in a Gray area. And that's not a bad thing
because I know as, as a friend of mine, as we look at it, we've
kind of talked about this before.
He would say, it's not that we're in a Gray area.
We're going in color. We're we're putting ourselves in
color. We were once black and white,
but now we're in color. And but an interesting thing
(15:31):
about it is that what hurts me now, I weep over the, the
relationships and the people that I hurt in my black and
whiteness through the years. And that's really, I struggle
with that and that, but that also spurs me on to other
relationships and other people and people that you encounter
that you don't know where they're at in this journey.
And you have to be open to that black and whiteness, but I
(15:53):
should be open to that Gray or that color area and realize that
I've been there too. And and, and relationships are
so important. And and I think it's important
for the church to to realize that relationships are are very
important and not to be hurtful in a way when someone begins to
see something a certain way. Yeah.
And of. Course, we see this in what we
do and I just think it's important to recognize that
(16:14):
we're not all in the same place in our understanding and our
spiritual ghost and it it is quite a challenge when you're in
the church, especially I have you for a few more minutes.
I was going to get your opinion about this.
You know, Jesus was harshest about and toward the religious
people of his day. And I guess this is more of your
perspective. Would you be more as you think
about the future of the church that's kind of uppercase, see
(16:36):
the church in general, would yoube more optimistic or
pessimistic about the future of the church?
And then coincidentally, maybe what are some things that keep
you going in the ministry? I think.
I'm more of an optimistic personin general with typical things
in my life and I think I see it as a more of an optimistic idea
of the future of the church. I do believe that the church
(16:58):
kinds of refreshes itself every few 100 years and has a tendency
to kind of, you know, kind of the wheat in the chaff, throw it
in the air kind of thing. I think it works some stuff
through, but I'm optimistic. I think the church has a has a
great opportunity and a great place to be, especially as
there's new things coming along,technology and social media and
(17:19):
we have opportunities now of outreach and things that we've
never been able to do. I think we can take advantage of
those opportunities in a good way, in a positive way and gives
us more opportunities to be opento new ideas, fresh ideas, other
people's journey. And I think we need to take
advantage of that, take advantage of that stuff.
And we have we have no greater time.
I think what keeps me going in ministry.
(17:39):
Yeah, that's. That's kind of I was curious
about that. I think the biggest.
Thing is that I put it in this. This stuff is real.
It really is real. And I just, what keeps me going
is that I just want other peopleto experience the realness.
You know, there's a lot of things that are going to pass
away and there's a lot of ideas and visions and pastors in our
(18:00):
lives, friends in our lives, things are going to pass away.
But this right here, this, this connection, this relationship
with God is so real. And I think what drives me is
just just making sure that people realize that people
realize that, you know what? This is something that's so
real, something so worth puttingyour time, effort, love and
energy into and encouraging people to do that.
(18:21):
And I think that's what's important.
And that's a good. Note to end on too, I mean, you
know, fortunately we get to kindof continue impact these things
as we go along, but I just foundyour message of a few weeks ago
which is really interesting, especially the title which I
thought was appropriate. But just one more thought.
Any final thoughts about the passage or anything else we
didn't cover you want to speak to?
(18:43):
Well, I think. I pretty much the way I ended my
message that day was pretty muchasking ourselves, think about
these soldiers. I think about the lie they had
to keep and for a payout to keepto to hold on to on those
shoulders of them. Maybe the lies that we're
holding on to. What are the lies that we're
holding on to? Maybe we started them.
Maybe we didn't start them, but we embraced them as our own.
(19:04):
Maybe the lie fueled our selfishthoughts and beliefs or
stimulated our points of view. And kind of the idea that I
wrapped up that whole message with that a lie has one sole
purpose to steal, kill and destroy.
And are we willing to embrace that and hold on to that, you
know, something that's going to steal, kill and destroy
everybody that it surrounds? You know, so those are just
(19:25):
things and thoughts that kind ofpour out of that passage for me
as I look at it, that sounds. Good.
Well, Jason, I appreciate your time today and more importantly,
I appreciate our being able to serve the Lord together.
And for those who are listening,we appreciate your time and
thanks for listening.
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